1 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,680 Hi, I'm Pete Walmsley and welcome to the Foilers podcast. 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,120 As you may know, Cabrina has recently launched an entirely 3 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,800 new foil platform. They're calling it their union 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,480 system. And this new Union Foil system 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,040 is designed around a new connection with increased 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,400 stiffness and a wide performance range. 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:32,040 Today I'm joined by John Modica, chairman of Cabrina and Lars 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,160 Moltra, product development manager. 9 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:38,480 I'm keen to breakdown why the Union Foil system was built the 10 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:42,000 way it was, how the design and connection choices shape the 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,280 riders feel, who it's built for and how to size it. 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,720 So let's get into it. Welcome to the podcast guys. 13 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,160 Great to great to have you on. Before we dive into your Union 14 00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:56,720 Foil system, for the people who might be newer to the sport, I'm 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,920 keen to start by hearing a little bit about your 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,680 backgrounds. So, John, can you start by 17 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,200 talking us through your background in water sports and 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,240 how that journey eventually LED you to become the Chairman of 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,120 Cabrina? Yeah, I've got a bit of a, a 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,080 unique, I, I call it the sort of the, the cycle of my my life 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,840 because it's kind of gone full circle from I started 22 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,360 kiteboarding when I was 1415 years old. 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,800 Good actual fellow Australian of you named Greg. 24 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,840 Got me into Kite Morning, gave me my first lesson when I, yeah, 25 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,560 I think I was 14 and I bought my first kite, which happened to be 26 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,480 a Cabrina, actually yellow 14M when I was 15. 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,880 Got connected to the Cabrina team right away, Started doing 28 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,760 some events, traveled to many events for probably a good part 29 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,280 of a decade, basically from when I was like 1516 to when I was, 30 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,600 you know, 2324 going into grad school. 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,880 And then Kite Morning took a little bit of a backseat. 32 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,160 I studied education and education policy. 33 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,800 I got a graduate degree in that and then somehow ended up 34 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,160 starting a software company in education with few guys in New 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,600 York because that's what people did in 2011. 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,760 You just started software companies and that was the cool 37 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,600 thing to do with four guys in a garage and and we started one 38 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,080 very nice garage, but it was, you know, it was a startup 39 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,440 company nonetheless. Had that ran that for 5-6 years, 40 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,480 kite boarded kind of in between for fun. 41 00:02:15,640 --> 00:02:19,840 But the interesting part was most of my investors I got 42 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,480 introduced through through kite boarding colleagues that I knew 43 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,960 Kite boarding was like my golf of business. 44 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,920 Networking got me into it, ended up selling the company 656 years 45 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:34,320 into it, moved back to Florida, was consulting, doing software 46 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,040 consulting. And then you know, within a 47 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,800 couple years of that, I got a call from the old president of 48 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,400 the US distribution for Kabrina basically saying that Neil Pride 49 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,760 Group was being liquidated and Kabrina along with and he asked 50 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,960 me if I knew any investors in the course. 51 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,840 I call my kite boarding network of investors all over again and 52 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,160 somehow ended up acquiring Kabrina through that process. 53 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:57,400 Wow. OK. 54 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,040 So it's from software back to water sports, essentially. 55 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,240 And were you doing water sports during that time you were doing 56 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,800 all your software stuff, or was there a real break between? 57 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,240 No. I mean, I was dabbling, you 58 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,440 know, it was, it was for fun. It was like, it was like my, my 59 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,560 relief of things. I, I went to a couple 60 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,800 competitions. I, I would, you know, fly out on 61 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:17,840 I, I was a normal kite border guy on the weekends or, you 62 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,240 know, every month or two doing a quick trip or something. 63 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,480 But definitely took up a step back from being in in the 64 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,520 industry. So to speak, Yeah, Yeah. 65 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,200 And last, can you give us a snapshot of your background? 66 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,320 You know, how did you get into foil design and what's your role 67 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,240 in shaping Cabrinas foil design direction? 68 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,640 Yeah, yeah. Thanks for having us on here. 69 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,880 I started with with kiteboarding as well probably 20 years ago or 70 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,480 so back in Denmark where I'm from and the time I was a tool 71 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,320 maker and you know, dedicated all my time to kiteboarding and 72 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,520 got involved with teaching and everything. 73 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,760 And through going back to school and design school, I did a 74 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,960 internship, the water sports brand and sort of got into the 75 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,000 industry that way. And I've been in the industry 15 76 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:10,160 years with Cabrina for maybe eight or nine years by now, I 77 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,680 reckon. And so my role is, is, is 78 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,640 largely product development manager. 79 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,959 So I sort of work with all the different projects, but in terms 80 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:25,440 of design, I started with the deciding the first hydrofoils 81 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:30,360 that Cabrina came out with quite some years ago and we've had up 82 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,800 until now several people involved as well. 83 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,200 I've sort of taken a bigger role now. 84 00:04:35,280 --> 00:04:40,160 But yeah, sort of the the overarching viewing that I moved 85 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,400 to Maui in 2011 to Australia a couple of years ago here and 86 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,640 some based out of Australia now. Fantastic. 87 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,480 And how do your two roles work together when in developing a 88 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,760 new platform like the the union system, which we're obviously 89 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,000 going to talk about a lot more, How do you guys work together on 90 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,320 something like that? Well, yeah, I guess I'll start 91 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,920 by saying like, unlike Lars, I'm, I'm really, I'm much more 92 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,600 qualified as far as my background is concerned. 93 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,360 I, no, I my role in this is, you know, because I, I really come 94 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,800 at this knowing nothing, right? I didn't know anything about 95 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,960 composites, anything about the software. 96 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,320 I mean, Lars and, and the team really, you know, they're, 97 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,320 they're kind enough to humor my ridiculous kind of concepts when 98 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,920 it comes to things, but. He's a fresh approach. 99 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,400 Fresh and Andy is my marketing guy too. 100 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,560 He really softens the blow. Yeah, I know. 101 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,600 I think, you know, I, I think Lars and I have had a lot of 102 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,800 success in certain things and actually we're, we're, we're 103 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,000 having a lot of fun right now. Lars actually just sent me, I 104 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,760 think the final rendering of a new wing we're working on. 105 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,760 And Lars is very good at interpreting some of my thoughts 106 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,720 and direction and where I think certain things are going and, 107 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,600 and, and kind of levels me out right, puts me back into reality 108 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,160 a little bit. And I think this foil connection 109 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,680 system is a good sort of summary of that, where Lars and the team 110 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,960 presented me several cool ideas for the new system. 111 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,880 And honestly, every one of them probably would have been really 112 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,600 great right there. There were there were a couple 113 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,840 really cool options and cool concepts and you know that, but 114 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:19,160 there was sort of this theme in the background of well, a lot of 115 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,640 people are taking heavy inspiration from what Mike's lab 116 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,880 did with that saddle style connection. 117 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:26,920 And we had iterations that were similar to that. 118 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,760 We had some concepts that were a very different approach, the 119 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,040 same problem. And that's where I kind of came 120 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,960 to the team and said, look, you know, I feel like if we're going 121 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,160 to go these routes, like let's get on the phone with Mike and 122 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,640 take what he's done and now apply everything, you know, in a 123 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,400 production environment that's maybe with certain different 124 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,680 limitations, right? I mean, Lars has got so much 125 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,320 experience with the team working with these factories to make 126 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,720 sure that we have a consistent, high quality product. 127 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,160 So I feel like my sense of this was to say, Hey, I think it's 128 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,520 strategically smart and a better foundation to actually work with 129 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:03,520 Mike's lab, give them the credit for the fact that they really 130 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,280 innovative on this design. But then Lars and, and the team 131 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,400 really kind of said, Hey, how do we make this work and how do we 132 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,120 make it great? And they really did that right? 133 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,960 We went from 4 bolts two, we made it so that we could remove 134 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,800 the stabilizers easy, make it pack up really well. 135 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,320 It fits in bags. It's you know, the system is 136 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,480 just very intuitive and smart. I think, you know, large 137 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,640 something maybe you know, at some point you could talk about, 138 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,280 but you know, just to kind of plant the seed on it is how much 139 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,120 I think I don't know how much we want to reveal about how we did 140 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,680 our inserts so differently than others, but that was a genius 141 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,840 move that really might have made or broke the system if we didn't 142 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:40,840 do that. I think. 143 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,360 I guess the to answer your question after rambling on for a 144 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,880 while, the take away sort of like I think I I got to 145 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,200 contribute a little bit of the general direction, but really it 146 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,360 was large in the team that kind of drove it home. 147 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,240 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if, if I can add to that, 148 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,240 I would say, you know, obviously it's, it's actually in my view a 149 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,000 huge benefit to have someone both that writes at the level 150 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,280 that John does. But having a look at it from 151 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,920 afar in some cases can be such a huge advantage where sometimes 152 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,640 when you look at what we do all days, we work with the 153 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,880 factories, the materials, the molds, the process, all these 154 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,880 things. So you sometimes get caught up 155 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,680 in that the dynamic of having someone who is not constrained 156 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,360 by some of all those things gives, you know, sort of that, 157 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,000 that fresh look at things and and makes us question, hey, why 158 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,159 do we do that? We're sometimes we automatically 159 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:35,760 go to certain decisions because of the experience we have, and 160 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,600 it makes us re rethink a lot of things. 161 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,320 And I think the new system is, is a great example of that. 162 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,760 You know, John, looking at the that Mike's lab and say, hold 163 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,800 up, Hey, there's a really good thing here. 164 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,880 All we have to do really is is adjusted to our spec and I think 165 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:53,920 that's in basically what happened. 166 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,080 Yeah, yeah, I there's certainly some advantages when people come 167 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,280 from different industries and start asking different questions 168 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,480 than the the normal. And you can't, you can sort of 169 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,560 keep heading down, heading down the same Rd. a little bit, maybe 170 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,720 tweaking and proving, but very much the same Rd. when 171 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,760 everyone's got the same background, you know, it's like 172 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,520 a marriage. Good marriages are where there's 173 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,680 some difference between the partners. 174 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:19,760 I think if you were the same, it's probably not going to be 175 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,200 great be a little arguments, but you got to bring something a 176 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,960 little bit different in for for it to work. 177 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,960 And sometimes people coming from different backgrounds really 178 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,560 challenge the status quo and, and move things forward. 179 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:36,120 When it comes to riding the union system. 180 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,600 What is it that people will notice and it's different to 181 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,640 maybe other foils they've written before? 182 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,400 What's the what's the feeling of writing that system? 183 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,480 I mean, I like that you chose the word feeling, right, because 184 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,920 there's, there's a bunch of things you'll notice that's 185 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,520 unique, but I think from what I hear, right? 186 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,880 And, and this is one of those things where it's definitely my 187 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,080 opinion, but I, I bring it up because it's very consistent, 188 00:09:58,080 --> 00:09:59,560 right? The second I hand somebody the 189 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:02,920 Union foil, regardless of what they're riding today, the first 190 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,920 thing they say is, wow, that's really buttery smooth through 191 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,320 the water, right? I think when, when someone has 192 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,680 gone from a system with 7 or 8 bolts sticking out of it, or 193 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,840 profiles that aren't so great or connection joints that are 194 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:20,080 clearly rough or fuselage geometry that's like really 195 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,160 blocky and square and clearly not hydrodynamic. 196 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,880 And then you jump onto a system like this and you have all that 197 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,480 drag gone, you will feel it just buttery smooth through the 198 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,200 water. So that as far as like a feel 199 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,680 concerned, that's always to me the number one thing I. 200 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,880 Yeah, and Laz, what do you, what do you hear from people when 201 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,120 they're riding it? One of the things that really 202 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,880 stand out to me are are, you know, obviously the the 203 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:47,600 stiffness, but also the fact that at a relatively high span, 204 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:52,040 it still turns very well. And so that's what we've we've 205 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,280 seen in the past, right? You know, span usually fights a 206 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,920 lot for turning and, and there's a big improvement there. 207 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:01,840 Great. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to 208 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,520 come back to that in a bit because I want to talk about how 209 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,760 that's enabled to happen because you're absolutely right. 210 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,280 You know, as the span gets bigger, people start worrying 211 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,160 about the tips coming out and and people going over the over 212 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,480 the front or whatever. So we'll circle back to that. 213 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,880 And you last when you started this project, what was the the 214 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,440 one key problem that you're most determined to solve when you're 215 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:24,600 getting started on the union platform? 216 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,360 But. One of our our initial design 217 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,600 briefs, one of the key ones were were stiffness. 218 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,920 This is something we knew had to be improved and not only the 219 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,160 stiffness, but the fit between parts and how do you 220 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,080 geometrically do that to accommodate manufacturing 221 00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:40,840 restrictions? The other point was obviously 222 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,800 it's, it's exactly what John was saying. 223 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,760 It's, it's how smooth it is, how low drag it is. 224 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,600 As you, so I'm sure you're aware, our previous system had a 225 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,320 pretty big front profile on the fuselage. 226 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,080 And so that was one of the big key points that we were trying 227 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,320 to solve. In addition to that, you know, 228 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,640 is always about how can we gain on the, on the wing design 229 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,000 specifically, how can we get enough efficiency, low drag and 230 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,920 allow for, for turning. One of the, the biggest ones 231 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,960 really is, is the stiffness. And that's also where some of 232 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,040 that turning comes from. You know, if, if you can imagine 233 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,520 if there's spending in the whole system, you're not going to be 234 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,160 as direct in your turning and your maneuverability. 235 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,800 So a lot of that actually comes from that, not just the design 236 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,640 of the wing itself. So the the the name Union's all 237 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,400 about the connection and so why was that master futilized to 238 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,400 fuselage interface such a critical focus of the project? 239 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,280 Is that where a lot of that stiffness feeling comes from? 240 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,480 Do you feel? Yeah, that, that's a big point 241 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,840 and one of the problems that we had to solve from our previous 242 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,760 one. That saddle connection 243 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,000 essentially allows us to contact point at the most outer point on 244 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,400 the fuselage. Basically we're having as much 245 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,320 leverage over the fuselage as possible. 246 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,200 And that obviously goes together with how, how we create the 247 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,800 layup in the wing and how we radiate all the fibers, all the 248 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,840 UD fighters fibers from that position out into the wing. 249 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,960 So so it's it's a 2 fold thing. And I think it also, you know, 250 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,920 the other part about that, that's the design and why so 251 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,720 many people have, you know, again, taken heavy inspiration 252 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,880 from it, is it solves that engineering problem from a 253 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,440 structural point of view, right? But it also, you know, from the 254 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,280 highest point of drag on hydrofoil is that basically 90° 255 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,560 angle from the mass to where the connections made, right? 256 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,520 And so because you've got that saddle connection, you can 257 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,560 really flare out that that connection point and, and not 258 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:36,480 eliminate entirely, but you know, you're, you're helping to 259 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,960 reduce drag at the point where you know the most drag is 260 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,240 occurring on the system. So it kind of it solves. 261 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,760 And it also allows us to. Sorry, yeah, no, it also. 262 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,240 Why don't you finish that and edit there? 263 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,200 Sorry I. Might have a lag on my end, but 264 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,560 no exactly. So you you, you know, in one 265 00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:57,120 simple shape, right? You in my mind, you got the 266 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,400 solution from an engineering problem and a hydrodynamic 267 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,720 problem all in one. So I think that's again, it's 268 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,880 why you know, Mike Slab did it and it's why a lot of people 269 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,520 said that was crazy smart. Why wouldn't I actually know of 270 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,440 two companies who, you know, called Mike after they had made 271 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,600 their system and he said, hey, we couldn't not copy this. 272 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,400 It's so darn good. And I remember when Mike told me 273 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,640 that story, and I was like, well, at least they're being, 274 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:22,840 you know, straightforward with it. 275 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,960 Yeah. And that and that flare as well 276 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,640 allows us again to get those fibers out to that outermost 277 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,760 point. So the flare is both, as John 278 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,440 says, hydro dynamically sound, but it also structurally allows 279 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,680 us to get the fibers smooth out into that outermost point to 280 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,480 create the leverage. So yeah, there's lots of aspects 281 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,760 to that. And as we, as we mentioned or we 282 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,040 talked about earlier, you licensed the Mic Labs connection 283 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,640 rather than essentially kind of reinventing something new. 284 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,280 There's probably 2 aspects to that. 285 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,800 There's the, the foil design aspect, you know, that sort of 286 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,640 thinking, but there's also the business aspect. 287 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,680 So it's great to have both of you are. 288 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,840 And so maybe Jonathan, if you could talk about, you know the 289 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,040 business aspect of of licensing versus reinventing. 290 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,760 Yeah. I mean it was, it was both a 291 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,520 business choice, but it was also one of those, you know, I think 292 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,840 a part of business and a part of brand identity is like, you 293 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,760 know, what people connect your brand to. 294 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:20,960 And I think I really, definitely, I, you know, I 295 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:25,480 really wanted to take away of this partnership with them to be 296 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,880 is that you know, where the, you know, I want people to know that 297 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,600 we're the brand that is going to acknowledge ingenuity and 298 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,400 pioneering efforts in the industry and give them credit 299 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:36,760 for it. And I just think it was the 300 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,400 right thing to do, you know, I don't mind saying that and 301 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,040 letting people know that, you know, I'm, I'm proud that we did 302 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,200 that. And I thought it was the right 303 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,360 thing to do. If it results in a Better 304 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,720 Business outcome, even better. But to me, it was more about 305 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,760 just doing the right thing and also starting the company from a 306 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,600 product point of view with a really good ground platform. 307 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,080 And then, you know, again, trusting my team to take that 308 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,920 and go even further with it. So it was a really, it was just 309 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,400 one of those things where I was a no brainer, you know, from my 310 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,600 perspective, you know, I never looked back on it. 311 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,080 And for once and said, was that the right choice? 312 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,160 It's just, you know, it's one of those things, it's like when you 313 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,040 get married and you know, you were the right person. 314 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,720 It's just, you know, you don't really second guess that too 315 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:18,520 much. Yeah. 316 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,480 It's really the only system that stood the test of time as well, 317 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,760 isn't it? Every single other system in the 318 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:29,280 market has changed, evolved. It is the only one that is as it 319 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,880 were. Over I think like 10 years now. 320 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,880 I know. I mean that Mike and Stefano 321 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,560 would know, but yeah, it's a solid 10 plus years. 322 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,040 And what, if anything, did you change? 323 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,120 And why did you change it or did you leave it pretty well as it 324 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:45,560 is? Do you want to answer that one, 325 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,320 John? Well, I'll large, why don't you 326 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,680 jump into the actual geometry changes and all that, But like 327 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,240 from a, from a most practical point of view, it's two M8 bolts 328 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,720 rather than four M sixes and M fives. 329 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,320 So, and that's that was just a simply from a, from a consumer 330 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,400 point of view, right. You have one tool for the foil. 331 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,480 They're really big bolts. They're a lot stronger, but 332 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,520 large, You know, maybe you could educate everybody on. 333 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,240 That is the most obvious one. And then obviously we have an 334 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,800 detachable fuselage which the mics lab doesn't, so that that's 335 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,599 one point of reference. The other things are very minute 336 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,680 things. Basically it's accommodate the 337 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,599 difference in in process. You know, we use Preprec carbon 338 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:31,800 and we use some different tools. So it's all very detailed stuff. 339 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,480 But yeah, the the screws and then obviously hang the 340 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,320 adjustable fuselage. We also did go a little bit, you 341 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,600 know, the the geometry is, is essentially similar, right? 342 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,000 But it is slightly bigger which which is also what allowed the M 343 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,440 mates to be, you know, plenty of room for those to be in. 344 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:49,640 There. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's 345 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:51,360 right. I forgot that. 346 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:54,520 Yeah, we had to, we had to sort of scale it a little bit to fit 347 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,560 the the bigger screws. And so going to M8 screws 348 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,080 allowed us. To. 349 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,600 Reduce the amount of screws, but also just makes the whole system 350 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,440 much more easy to digest. Because everything is M81 tool, 351 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,240 everything is very simple and straightforward. 352 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,240 It's interesting you talk about M8 because I was writing a foil 353 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,400 brand and the normal sized foils were fine. 354 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,920 But when I got to my large dock starting foil consistently 355 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,320 snapping bolts consistently 3 M sixes one would go. 356 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,840 The first time one went, I thought, I've still got 2 left, 357 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,320 I'll jump again. As soon as I jumped, it went 358 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,320 Bang Bang and I'm diving down to try and save my foil. 359 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:39,080 It happened over and over again. And so the you know, it can be 360 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,440 can be an issues. I'm a little bit of a flag waver 361 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,800 for a nice big solid M8 Bolts, particularly those foils get 362 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,560 bigger. I wonder if that's titanium 363 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,960 bolts you have in there? Yeah, I don't know if they were 364 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,120 titanium and I think that was one of the first things they 365 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:55,760 moved to. They moved to changing the the 366 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,160 nature of the bolts, I think. But they have now completely 367 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,640 changed that system and people can try and guess what brand 368 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,240 that is, but they've moved away from M Sixes. 369 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,040 And yeah, I was forever dropping my mast off at a engineering 370 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,640 mate's place and he was forever pulling out snap screws from my 371 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,480 mast. It got a bit tiring in the end. 372 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Luckily I had a couple of masts so I could swap them out and 373 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,960 look, it only ever happened in the kind of 1900, you know, And 374 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,800 I'm on pretty big dock starting foil. 375 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,480 I'm about 90 kilos and I like, I believe in making things easy 376 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,560 for myself. Dock starting is hard enough, 377 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,280 particularly when I'm a I'm a sort of throw it and jump on it 378 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,920 rather than run along, get on it kind of A and flexibility. 379 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,320 So you need a big one and soon as you jump 90 kilos on this 380 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,040 thing. Yeah, it was a lot of pressure 381 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,840 on that system. So the M8 held together a much 382 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,240 better I would say. Hey foilers, I just want to take 383 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,560 a moment to let you know about lip sunglasses. 384 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,960 They're made for water sports and they're absolutely game 385 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,320 changing. I first bought a pair of lips 386 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,800 and glasses because I had UV damage in one of my eyes from 387 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,880 long term exposure through many years of water sports. 388 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,720 I was also getting very tired of squinting through glare every 389 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,920 time I went falling and honestly they blew me away. 390 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,640 They're made for water sports that have got lightweight and 391 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,040 flexible frames for comfort and durability. 392 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,480 They've got injected polarization in the lenses for 393 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,760 glare free vision and a double stage retention system that 394 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,400 means they can't come off even in the biggest wipeout. 395 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,960 They also have a watershedding lens coating that keeps your 396 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,120 view crystal clear. I love them so much that I 397 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:32,560 actually became the Australian distributor. 398 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,840 If you want the best on water eyewear, check out Lip 399 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,400 sunglasses. And as Foilers listeners, you 400 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,880 get 15% off their premium Typhoon model with Zeiss lenses 401 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:48,120 using the code Foilers 15. Give them a try and do your eyes 402 00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:51,440 a favour. Look, we're sort of scooted 403 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,840 around the system and asked you a few bits and pieces. 404 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,520 Let's jump into a real overview of the system, what you know, 405 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,320 what does it comprise of and what what comes with that system 406 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,680 in terms of the foil range you've got at the moment. 407 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,320 Well, as far as what comes with the system. 408 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,520 As in what? What foils and options are? 409 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,920 Available or yeah what does it what does it consist of? 410 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,040 We know that it's licensed might lab system, but what is that 411 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,400 system for people that aren't as familiar with it and then what 412 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,640 have you accompanied with it and for people to put together the 413 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:24,720 foil package? Yeah. 414 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,000 So we, when we launched this, you know, my, my sales team was 415 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,560 pretty adamant of, Oh, well, we have to have a mid aspect and 416 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,600 the high aspect and this wing and that wing. 417 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,040 And I said no, no to all of it because I, I definitely, you 418 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,600 know, we, we're one of the few brands that we own are a couple 419 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,520 of our own retail stores here in Florida. 420 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,760 And I know what it's like for the retail team to stock items 421 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,040 and how and it's, it's not, it's not just a problem of like 422 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,640 financially, like, Hey, do you have enough money to have one or 423 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,360 two of everything? But a customer will always come 424 00:21:54,360 --> 00:21:56,120 in. If you have one size that you 425 00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:59,160 ran out of guarantee the next customer comes in, wants that 426 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,560 one size that you're out of it. Just, it's just one of those 427 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,560 things that just 90% of the time that's what happens. 428 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,200 So when we launched, we literally, you know, the 429 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,280 prestige range is 3 links. I'm sorry. 430 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,760 Well, one range, but it's 3 sizes. 431 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,000 That's it. So a dealer who's excited to get 432 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,360 on the program and, and wants a part of the union system, you 433 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:24,560 know, we do have 4 masks, it's 2 sizes and then the Apex and the 434 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,280 standard. So it was 78 and an 84 and 435 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,360 that's in a standard, you know, it's still a high modulus 436 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,840 carbon, but it's not an ultra crazy high modulus. 437 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,840 It's just our standard mass. And then we have an apex mast 438 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,400 again, 78 and 84 CM, but it's a bit thinner. 439 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,400 It's a true 14 mil mast and a very fast profile. 440 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,920 I know a lot of people are into these like crazy, crazy thin 441 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,160 masks. And I, you know, I think that's 442 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,840 a whole nother conversation about whether those masks are, 443 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,280 are they really that thick and are they that thick with a fast 444 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,920 profile or they very thin with a slow profile? 445 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,240 There's all debate about that, but I would say we have a very 446 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,280 fast profile in our mast. And and then yeah, you choose 447 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:08,320 between 3 front wings and three rear ring wing options, A16180 448 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:09,920 and 200. Yeah, OK. 449 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,400 And you've got the the prestige range of front wings that go 450 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,040 with it. There's. 451 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,360 Yes, right, sorry, I didn't even name the sizes. 452 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:24,280 So the prestige front wings are a 760, a nine O 5 and 1150. 453 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,760 Really the the nine O 5 is a bit of the you know, if if people 454 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,320 don't really know where to start, that's the the foil to 455 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,640 start on. It's got a incredible, 456 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,680 incredible range. The 11:50 is definitely, you 457 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,640 know, it's a size, it's a good size up from that, but very user 458 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,320 friendly for that size. The 760 is a little bit 459 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,440 different than the other two and that's a little bit even higher 460 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,000 aspect ratio. So that one takes I would say 461 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,880 that's not as user friendly as the other two, but they are all 462 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,520 definitely, you know, if if someone's trying to, you know, 463 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,160 say, hey, where does this sit? What is it good at? 464 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,200 They are very high efficiency pump collide foils that still 465 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,080 turn pretty well. So they're definitely not a wave 466 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,160 wing. They're not a dock starting wing 467 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,120 that just sort of goes One Direction and pumps. 468 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,440 It's really, you know, it, it's going to fit a huge range of 469 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:17,480 people from winging the prone surfing to pair winging to pump 470 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,240 surf prone foiling the downwinders. 471 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,040 It it's definitely a which is why we started with it. 472 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,640 It's a it's a range that fits a massive audience of people. 473 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,040 We have another range coming out in the next month. 474 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,440 Now the whip it, which we part, you know, Titwan Galileo, who 475 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,760 one of our team writers, he's had a lot input into that. 476 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,320 And it's interesting because I have a lot of conversations with 477 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,800 friends about the new wing coming out and they say, Hey, 478 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,400 should I try that? And I'm like, well, I'm excited 479 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,320 for you to try it, but you know, if you're on a prestige that for 480 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,240 8090% of people I talked to, that really is the perfect foil 481 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:51,960 for them. So we're, we're kind of in a 482 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,000 funny spot where the future foils are, you know, they're, 483 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,600 they're more, I would say niche in what they're trying to do now 484 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,760 as we expand the range. But I don't think the prestige 485 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,400 is going anywhere anyone anytime soon in our range because again, 486 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,840 it just fits such a wide variety of people. 487 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,840 Yeah, and I've heard riders describe the nine O 5 as feeling 488 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,000 like kind of loose trucks on a on a skateboard. 489 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,160 So Lars, what design choices created that surfy feel without 490 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,240 making it too twitchy? That 905 seems to be a pretty a 491 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,480 pretty maneuverable foil. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's a 492 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,280 lot of different things, trying not to get too technical, but 493 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,120 it's, you know, it's the top outline and how it tapers down, 494 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,440 how the thickness tapers down on the airfoil. 495 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,480 And then I think to me, one of the things I really believe are, 496 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,080 are the key point there is the stiffness. 497 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,120 It's hard to, it's very easy to oversee, but the fact that it's 498 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,080 so stiff and there's no bending when you lean over really makes 499 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,480 a huge difference. And but other than that, it's, 500 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,040 it's basically the taper out to that tip that that allows that. 501 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,400 So that you reduce the lift going out to the the tip is also 502 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,920 what makes the tips breach really nicely is how we control 503 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,080 the airfoil going out in sort of beyond 50% span. 504 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,960 And working our way through the different sizes, I'm interested 505 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,240 to know what are the decisions for people so you get the 506 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,920 1159057601150 what? What sort of person be riding 507 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,600 that and what sort of scenarios would they choose that for? 508 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,960 It's it's definitely the most common thing I talk to people 509 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,160 about and it's a tough one, right? 510 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,960 Because depending on where you go in the world, right up a 90K 511 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:37,800 guy in Maui versus a 70K guy in Florida versus a, you know, you 512 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,680 know something else in Hood River in the Gorge, right? 513 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,560 It's it's all very situational different, but to make it 514 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,160 simple, honestly, I think if you were AI would say bigger guy. 515 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,640 I'm like 85 to 88 kilos. For me, the 11:50 and the nine O 516 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,920 5 are a bit of a that's all I really need in my life. 517 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:02,040 I don't really need the 760 too much at my weight unless I was 518 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,400 going somewhere like Maui or in in conditions that were 519 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,080 significantly faster. I have a friend here in Florida 520 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,240 and he's quite a bit lighter, like 6570 kilos and, and he 521 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,640 actually, you know, he's a funny 1. 522 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,680 You know, well, most people think, oh, he's going to be on 523 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,440 the 760 and the nine O 5. But I actually, you know, he's 524 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:26,000 probably going to do the 760 and the 11:50 just because the 760 525 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,400 because it's even higher aspect has such a good low end. 526 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,880 And by the time you know, he's off at foil, then he's ready to 527 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,920 just go massive and make his life easy. 528 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:40,160 So I would say bigger people are really, you know, anything over 529 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:45,920 85 kilos, unless you're in real serious conditions, I would lean 530 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,400 towards the nine O 5 being a bit of your, you know, all around 531 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,120 foil and even your good day foil that 1150 really works for for 532 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,920 for everybody in light conditions. 533 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,240 But you know, it's a big size, it's not going to go nearly as 534 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,680 fast. It's got a pretty big wingspan. 535 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,720 So I would say that and you know obviously all this changes with 536 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,760 the different stabilizer pairings, right? 537 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,480 Yeah, yeah. You know, a 905 with a 200 538 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,800 stabilizer becomes a pump machine for, for people. 539 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,280 It's not going to turn as well, right? 540 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,600 But so yeah, there's there's so many variables here that. 541 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,760 It's tough, Yeah, and I know. I mean, I fall into the trap 542 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,680 talking sometimes too much about just the front wings. 543 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,080 We know increasingly in stabilizers can change the whole 544 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,800 field of things really easily. Yeah, they shouldn't be 545 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,680 forgotten. They're so important as part of 546 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,240 this package. Well, maybe why is it, maybe we 547 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,680 can, I mean we haven't really gone to market too much with 548 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,600 this information, but do you want to kind of go into what 549 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,880 what we've got coming that's pretty exciting? 550 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,600 Getting the scoop? Yeah, I like it. 551 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,440 Exactly. It's, it's a very important 552 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,040 aspect because it's not about the front wing, it's about the 553 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,880 system and and that includes the mast. 554 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,240 So yeah, we, we are also understanding the the importance 555 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,360 of that and we have a, what we call it the tweaker. 556 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,560 And so we have a couple of different lengths of fuselages 557 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,560 with angle adjustable steps and it's going to be sort of the 558 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,080 next part of the ecosystem so that we can build upon. 559 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,960 And, and also the factor there is that you can buy that 560 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,920 fuselage and then then you can buy individual stabilizers to 561 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:24,440 tweak what you're doing. And, and it just really changes 562 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,160 the, the feel of the foil drastically. 563 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,400 Even just changing the length of the fuselage loosens it up or 564 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,800 stabilizes it. Yeah, it's a big, it's a big 565 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,600 part of the system. Yeah. 566 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,400 So, so once you sort of bind the system, you're obviously your 567 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,280 plan is to continue to build that out with, you know, more 568 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,640 and more options so people can really refine down to different 569 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,680 scenarios and and, you know, different disciplines by the 570 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,080 sounds of things. Yeah, I mean, I would 571 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,560 definitely, it's funny, we were on a podcast not too long ago 572 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,080 talking about, you know, how do we keep the range concise and, 573 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,920 and how do we deal with all the different needs. 574 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,360 And you know, we're going to add is so, you know, everyone's 575 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,280 going to have to add. There's more and more demand for 576 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,640 more options. But I think we're I, I believe 577 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,040 we're going to probably do better than most and keeping it 578 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,960 to a minimum and making sure that we're making customer feel 579 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,240 very confident that if they're going to buy one of these foils, 580 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,880 that it is the right fit for them. 581 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,160 And that might mean by the way, acknowledging that, hey, like 582 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,960 even with the new Whippet foil, I think it's an amazing foil for 583 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,960 certain people. It's not going to be the wide 584 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,040 range of use that the prestige is that there's not, there's 585 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,280 nothing wrong with admitting that. 586 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,640 But the tweaker I think is, you know, having the adjustable 587 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,560 stabilizer is really important because the reality is some 588 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,080 people, we make these foils and pieces of equipment for people 589 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,000 to enjoy. And the reality is, is there, 590 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,720 there are guys who enjoy riding and there are guys who enjoy 591 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,440 tweaking as much as they do enjoying riding. 592 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:46,560 Great name. Too. 593 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,640 Yeah, great name. I mean, if we if we have a 594 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,400 customer who spends 90% of his time foiling on the beach, 595 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,680 adjusting because that's what he loves to do, I'm happy for him, 596 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:58,920 right? There's something wrong with 597 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,280 that. We didn't want to launch that 598 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,400 initially because again, I wanted the most efficient, 599 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,800 streamlined, pure, simple range to launch with. 600 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,760 And so the mono block stabilizers, they take a lot of 601 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,600 that confusion out of it, right? You buy it and you put the 602 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,080 screws in and you're done. There's nothing to adjust. 603 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,360 But you know, for for those foil attics out there that need a, 604 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,200 you know, a little of a juice of foil tweak in their life, we 605 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,440 have the tweaker for you. Coming. 606 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,760 I do wonder if foiling attracts a lot of engineers to just 607 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,000 because they like that, you know, it's it's, you know, it's 608 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,120 very engineered, designed, etcetera. 609 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,080 And those engineers do like to tweak things. 610 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,440 So I think, you know, they're going to be grabbing that and 611 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,320 playing around with it for sure. Yeah. 612 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,920 Yeah. I think it's also important to 613 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,400 say though that, you know, we spent a lot of time on the 614 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,520 monoblocks to to tweak those angles and and they're really 615 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,440 for the most part is 1 angle that balances the the set up the 616 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,640 best. But obviously there is some 617 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,960 small deviation from that to to get out that little preference 618 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,680 that you might have to more or less front foot pressure or more 619 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,600 stability or better turning there. 620 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,840 There's that opportunity with the tweaker. 621 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,800 Yeah, with the prestige foils, you you're going to be evolving 622 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,360 that. As you say, you got the tweaker, 623 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:19,920 you've got the the whippet coming. 624 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,280 What trade-offs, if anything were there when you you started 625 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,280 with the high aspect foils. You know what did you 626 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,600 intentionally give up in launching initially with the 627 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,600 prestige range? It's a good question. 628 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,920 I mean, I think, you know, we, the way that I, I would say the 629 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,520 heart, the what we spent the most time discussing, right, is 630 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,120 we knew we wanted a very high glide. 631 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,320 Inefficiency is critical, right? That's what most people are 632 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,040 after. And what I was seeing in the 633 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,920 market was a lot of people going to really high efficiency glidey 634 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,320 foils that did not turn at all. And you know, the, the clearest 635 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,280 evidence of that was, you know, doing downwind runs with friends 636 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,280 and they'd get out there and, and they'd be on a really high 637 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,920 glide foil and they'd say, oh, I got that wave, but I couldn't do 638 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,840 anything. I was just stuck. 639 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,400 And then I'd have other friends on that more surfy foils and 640 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,520 they'd say, oh, I couldn't even get up today or it took me twice 641 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,800 as long And, and that drove me nuts. 642 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,440 I was like, well, both of those scenarios just don't work for 643 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,560 me. It took a lot of time to find 644 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,720 what we really felt was the right balance where you have 645 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,920 enough glide and efficiency with the prestige, but still can 646 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,200 maneuver. You can still turn where you're 647 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,080 not. You know it if you're if your 648 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,800 brain goes to, I wish I had this other foil right now. 649 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,920 We've made a mistake. And I think that was finding 650 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,520 those compromises in the prestige range was the hard 651 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,920 part. And I think we kind of hit the 652 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,800 nail on the head, to be honest. But as far as if your question 653 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,320 was more geared towards like what did we compromise or what 654 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,160 did we give up by not focusing on more surfy foils earlier on? 655 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,200 I mean, I, I don't think we really compromised on too much. 656 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,240 I think, you know, people who want to prioritize 657 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,320 maneuverability over all this other stuff are, are very 658 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,080 advanced, very specific riders. I mean, that's why we're adding 659 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,840 foils in the range for those people. 660 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,560 I think if you really sat back and we're honest with who's in 661 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,600 the market, what do people buy? It's eight. 662 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,080 It's pretty obvious what 80% of people need. 663 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,840 And and that's really what, again, I know I'm being a little 664 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,400 bit redundant and repetitive, but that's what the prestige is. 665 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:17,400 Yeah. And last. 666 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,159 And I think, yeah, I think inherently, right as you start 667 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:24,679 out with that, that highest big foil, the trade off is 668 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:26,880 maneuverability. That is just inherently the 669 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,480 nature as you go up and span and shorten the court. 670 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,800 And I think I'd rather say than what compromises did we do? 671 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,199 I'd rather say we knew that that was a compromise, but I feel we 672 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,800 made big gains in in actually minimizing that. 673 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,960 So we actually ended up with this quite maneuverable high 674 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,080 aspect foil relatively highest, yeah. 675 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,600 In preparation for chatting to you, I was looking at what 676 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:51,400 people were saying about it. And as I said to you before, we 677 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,000 just before we kicked off, I've got a friend riding them. 678 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,600 He's absolutely loving them. And look, I know there's 679 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,720 sometimes a mentality to trying to race to the smallest foil you 680 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,040 can use, but, and he's kind of, I suppose done that to some 681 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,200 degree, but he's riding the smallest foil he's ever ridden 682 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,360 and he's finding it just as easy as some of the larger ones. 683 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,240 So there's someone that's certainly got your vote, but 684 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,600 also in in doing more research. So people were talking about the 685 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,040 ease of pumping and gliding, and I've heard that people feel the 686 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,400 pump styles a little bit different to some of the foils. 687 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,160 There's more kind of acceleration based as opposed to 688 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,240 this low end pumping, IE you don't just sort of pump slowly 689 00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:28,560 to survive, you give it a few kicks, let it speed up and then 690 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,480 ride the glide. Can you talk through why you 691 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,000 designed the pump to work that way and what enables that to 692 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:35,720 happen? Yeah. 693 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,440 I mean that that comes down to the to the leftover drag ratio 694 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,720 basically of the airfoil that we're using. 695 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,680 It allows that that lift over wide span of angles of attack. 696 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,960 So yeah, that that that's the main, the main contributing 697 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,280 factor to that aspect, that characteristic. 698 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,000 Yes, One other thing I would add, I mean, I, you know, I 699 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,040 guess going into this, we definitely, you know, spent a 700 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,880 lot of time testing other foils out there and there's definitely 701 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,680 there's a lot of different pumping styles. 702 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,200 So you could, you can see when you watch people go from like 703 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:15,160 these really big dramatic leg presses to kind of very tweaky, 704 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,360 like this kind of pumping really quickly. 705 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,640 And, and it's really, you know, just like when you're watching a 706 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,760 surf contest, right? And you can, you can watch 707 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,640 somebody get up on a board and they just feel, they look and 708 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,080 feel so connected to that board, right? 709 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,960 It doesn't look like they're man handling it around. 710 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,360 It looks like it's just very fluid. 711 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,720 I think the one of the things I think we've done a little bit 712 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:38,920 differently in our system after measuring a lot is our 713 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,680 stabilizer angles are a little bit unique. 714 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,640 And I think we were able to go with a little bit more angle 715 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,000 because the total system drag is is so much less. 716 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,840 And I think that combination of things has actually, you know, 717 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,280 given you a nice result of plenty of stabilizer angle. 718 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,560 So you don't get that crazy downward look at speed with, 719 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:03,200 with a good, you know, lift to drag ratio, as Lars said. 720 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,440 But I think there is some magic sauce in getting enough 721 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,840 stabilizer angle to to make the foil feel really locked in and 722 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,680 connected to you. But you're not going to be able 723 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,640 to do that with a draggy system with eight bolts sitting out 724 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,160 and, you know, blocky joints and all that. 725 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:23,240 So it's that and, you know, that foundation, right, gives you the 726 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,000 ability to do all these things. Without that, it's, you know, 727 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,840 it's all for nothing. And how much of the whole final 728 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,120 design for the union system and the, and the, the foil range 729 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,800 you've got at the moment is driven by data versus Ryder 730 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,080 field? Because you know, when I, I, I 731 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,320 talk to, to various companies, there's companies at one end 732 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,800 where very much driven by engineers, engineering companies 733 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,200 are doing a lot of the work. And then the other end, there's 734 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,600 some out there that it's all about writer feel. 735 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,680 Where did, where did you sit in that? 736 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:56,360 And and you know, to what extent did writer feedback kind of 737 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,760 influenced that final design or was it quite a lot of 738 00:37:58,760 --> 00:37:59,880 engineering in it? Yeah. 739 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,560 I mean, I would say what 1 doesn't go without the other. 740 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,960 It goes hand in hand. And so it's it's pretty 741 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,240 straightforward. We start with the engineering of 742 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:09,680 it. We start analyzing all the 743 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,360 different foils. Obviously that starts with an 744 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,880 objective that drives into analyzing the different foils 745 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,880 that hit the target we're looking for. 746 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,520 And then after that, you know, that goes straight into writer 747 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,560 feedback. You know 1 doesn't go without 748 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,560 the other and it it's a constant feedback loop that revises. 749 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,200 Yeah. I think, you know, one of the 750 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,200 things that I think really helped us inform this system to 751 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,520 that, you know, Lars and the other designers that we've 752 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,080 worked with years ago, their last foil system spent a ton of 753 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,440 time with. What was the university that you 754 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,480 guys partnered with at one point that, you know, we had access to 755 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,160 the wave pool? And what, what do you, I forget 756 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,800 what he didn't call. Yeah, we run a lot of tests in 757 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,720 cavitation tunnels and and actually wave pools, but made 758 00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,200 for for shipbuilding and such to analyze the force. 759 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,280 Yeah. And we, you know, and that a lot 760 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,160 of that stuff was done actually on our old foil system. 761 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,040 And I think a lot of people here, I don't know if you've 762 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,280 heard this, but we had a lot of success actually with our last 763 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,080 foil system, but we are always really held back because of the 764 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,360 stiffness of the system in the mast in that joint. 765 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,720 So I think, you know, we were, I would argue if you took our old 766 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:26,360 foil, our, our profiles and our wings and you put them on the 767 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,360 new mast, they were really ahead of their time. 768 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,040 So I think this was also a little bit of why this 769 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,240 partnership with Mike's lab made a lot of sense to me was I knew 770 00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:39,080 we had such good wing designs and profiles and we under we had 771 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,360 a lot of sort of our, you know, a pool of, of wings that we 772 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,960 could tap into. And we knew what they did after 773 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,120 so much tests, testing, and, you know, as soon as I gave my team 774 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,640 access to a platform and a system that we knew it would 775 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,880 actually allow us to really tap into that the magic kind of 776 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,800 easily happens. So for me, it's, you know, 777 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,280 thinking back over four or five years now, all the work they did 778 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,240 then, all the data they've analyzed all the time and 779 00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,600 testing the prototype wings even on the prior system all 780 00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:11,960 influenced really kind of where we ended up today. 781 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,520 And talking about your your previous system and components 782 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,520 is to what degree is there backward compatibility with this 783 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,960 union foil system? Who wants to jump in? 784 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,000 Liars, got that? OK. 785 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,880 You got last. Yeah, obviously it's basically a 786 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,360 complete departure. But we will be offering a 787 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,000 adapter so that you can you can start basically by putting the 788 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,080 new mast onto our the old wings and then our hope is that you 789 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,440 progress into the the full new system. 790 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,040 But we will be offering that. So it makes makes it a little 791 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,800 bit easier to people to slowly get into the system. 792 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,360 Yeah, I actually tested the first one Mars sent me just the 793 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,240 last couple weeks and it works great. 794 00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:59,400 I mean, I think, you know, it's obviously not going to be as 795 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,360 good as the whole new system, but you know, hey, look, if you 796 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,040 have a whole range of wings, 5-6 wings, you know, and you were 797 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,360 just not happy with our old mass and connection system right away 798 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,200 with one mask purchase. Now you've, you've really made a 799 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,480 major upgrade to your old system again is do I believe that will 800 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,880 be as good as if you just bought the new complete system? 801 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,280 No, but again, without breaking the bank and, and again, if you 802 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,000 have 5 or 6 foils, it would really, you know, it's 803 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,720 disappointing when people depart and then none of that's useful 804 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:29,680 anymore. So I'm not I don't want to get 805 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,680 people too excited and say, hey, all of their old foils are going 806 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,720 to make this new you're going to have this perfect new system 807 00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:36,320 with your old foils. No, I think, you know, there's 808 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,080 obviously some drawbacks and the new ones going to serve you 809 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,080 better, but you know, don't be, don't be worried about breaking 810 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,600 the bank if if you have foils you love and you just want a 811 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,600 little upgrade that that will be available. 812 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,280 And I suppose those sort of relatively new to foiling, you 813 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,240 know, they're not at that level where they necessarily feel a 814 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:56,600 lot of the difference. I mean, it doesn't take long 815 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,280 before you do, but if you're really at that early stages, you 816 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,640 know, and if you have. A power source, right? 817 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,200 Like if you're riding a kite, you're a wing it it it becomes 818 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,400 less critical. Yeah. 819 00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:09,160 When you were going through this process, designing a new 820 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,720 product, it's, you know, you've got to kind of get it right. 821 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,720 What was 1 area where debate was probably at the highest within 822 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:20,160 the organization, maybe, maybe between you 2, maybe between 823 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,640 others. What was 1 area that was 824 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,400 challenging to agree on? I only remember the good times. 825 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:26,920 Lawyers. You, you tell me, what was that? 826 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,560 Yeah. No, I wouldn't say that there 827 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,800 are many of those scenarios. The one that sticks out to me is 828 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,880 usually the one that's always the biggest challenge, which is 829 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,480 construction. Construction within constraints 830 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,440 of the factory consider, you know, availability of the right 831 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,840 materials and iterating on that and, you know, keeping it, 832 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,080 keeping the the giant pile of broken foils over in the corner 833 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,960 of the factory lab to a minimum. That's usually where where the 834 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,880 biggest, you know, head scratching and and frustrating 835 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,600 moments occur. Yeah, it it must be challenging. 836 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,120 I'm sure you're developing a new product, a new system, which is 837 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,960 even more than a new product in many ways. 838 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,680 At some point commercially, you've got to say enough. 839 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,440 We're done. We've we've made it. 840 00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,920 No more tweaking that must be, that must be challenging, that 841 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,880 must be hard to do because the more you test it, the more you 842 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,280 know it's great that some things might not be perfect others. 843 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:25,840 But you're never enough. Yeah. 844 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:27,840 You're never exactly. It's just a matter of when you 845 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,760 say like, you say like. You put it enough. 846 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,240 Yeah. Yeah, as always, kind of next 847 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:35,560 time I suppose, you know, some point you got to get in the 848 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,120 market. There's commercial realities, 849 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,480 Yeah. When, when people think about 850 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,120 this new union foil system, what's the one thing that you 851 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,800 want to come to mind? They're, you know, they're, 852 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,400 they're shopping around different foils. 853 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,120 They see the union foil system. What do you want them to be 854 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,440 thinking? You know, I think it's, it's, 855 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,440 it's definitely going to be a bit different for, for different 856 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,760 people. But I guess you know, if, if it, 857 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,880 if I had it, you know, my way and you know, everyone was kind 858 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,800 of the same and and walked in. I think, you know, no nonsense, 859 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,040 high performance simplicity, right? 860 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,560 It's especially you know, yes, we're adding things to the 861 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,120 range. Yes, we have the tweaker, right, 862 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,880 But but you know, I in our store, right, we have on display 863 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,680 the nine O 5 with the 180 tail and the standard mast. 864 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,960 Now that is just perfection. It's got 2 screws visible. 865 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,280 It's I don't have to like that. I could send almost anybody in 866 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,280 and just hand it to them. Say this is going to be great 867 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,920 for you for a long, long, long time and you don't need to 868 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,520 adjust things and you don't need to overthink it. 869 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,960 And it's not for pros and software beginners. 870 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,840 It works for a huge range of people. 871 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,080 So it's just simple and it works and it's absolutely beautiful. 872 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,000 And you don't need to spend $3000 on the Super premium mask 873 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,720 to have fun. I actually use our standard mask 874 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,600 all the time. It's got a crazy fast profile on 875 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,160 it. It doesn't feel draggy to me at 876 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,440 all. It doesn't break the bank in 877 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,880 price. You know, I think we I'm going 878 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,560 to re answer your question. When I when people see it, I 879 00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,840 really want them to think like these guys found the right set 880 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,800 of compromises. Yeah, OK. 881 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,600 Yeah, Laz, where's your thinking app for this one? 882 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,800 Yeah, simplicity. We have an exploded view of how 883 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,240 you assemble the foil in included in the mast. 884 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:22,080 And you don't need a single word to explain how it goes together. 885 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:27,840 And that combined with a simple, straightforward offering, it's 886 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,320 easy to pick what you want and it'll be high performance. 887 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,600 Yeah, great. You mentioned the Whippet. 888 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,560 I'm sure the the listeners to the podcast are going to be 889 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,440 saying Pete. Pete, you didn't ask anymore. 890 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,120 You just heard it, It was an exclusive and you didn't ask any 891 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,280 questions. So I need to ask a little bit 892 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,200 more about the Whippet. You tell me as much as you want 893 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,440 to tell me or as little, that's that's up to you. 894 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,240 But tell me a little bit that you can tell me about the way, 895 00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:53,200 but where does that fit in and when's it going to be available 896 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,560 as well actually? Large, I think we're looking for 897 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,160 availability in end of April, right? 898 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,440 Launching end of the month this month. 899 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:06,320 Most places should start receiving them in the next few 900 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:07,080 weeks. Yes. 901 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,600 Exciting. You can tell how integrated I am 902 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:10,920 with some of the parts of the company. 903 00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:15,880 You know, we we used to have our foil names were X series and H 904 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,840 series, right? And the X series was sort of a 905 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,960 crossover series, the H series of high performance. 906 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,320 And you know, although the whip it in sort of an aspect ratio, 907 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,120 like if you just took a top view of the foil, right to see the 908 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,520 look of it, it it looks it's a mid aspect foil like the X 909 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,840 series was, but we use the name whip it very intentionally, 910 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,720 right. This is a this is like a little 911 00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:40,320 rally car, this foil, it's a very performance based profile. 912 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,280 It's hyper maneuverable. It definitely is faster than you 913 00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,600 would expect for its size. I would say it's definitely for 914 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,400 the more advanced rider looking to really Max out 915 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,920 maneuverability and speed for a foil size. 916 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,240 So, you know, if you go to Byron Bay or something and I'm trying 917 00:46:58,240 --> 00:46:59,720 to think of police in Australia for you, you. 918 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:02,440 Did well, you did well. I did it. 919 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,080 I got I got one that was probably the only one I could 920 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,800 name by the way. So but you know, and and you've 921 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,920 got, you know, a powerful, a powerful way and you need top to 922 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,040 bottom maneuverability. This foil is going to be great 923 00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,280 if you're wing foiling and you're you're powered and you're 924 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,440 relatively skilled and you want a foil that you can really whip 925 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,040 around and carbon. You don't need to maximize pump 926 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:27,840 and glide. This foil is for you. 927 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,920 If you're kite foiling right and you you've again, you've got 928 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,880 plenty of power and you're not looking for that pump and glide 929 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,360 the whip. It is for you. 930 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,640 So it's definitely, you know, it's a really fun, exciting 931 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,640 foil. It's definitely not beginner 932 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,120 foil. It really prioritizes carving 933 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,600 maneuverability and top end speed for its size. 934 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,320 Yeah, it's sort of the prestige trade-offs, you know on its 935 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,040 head, right. We've here weighed the 936 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,960 maneuverability and low end power against the pump and glide 937 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,640 that we see there. But but again, we've sort of 938 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,080 minimized the negative impacts of that. 939 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,120 Well, that's going to be pretty exciting. 940 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,240 I think for for people, as you say, the more advanced riders 941 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:13,080 perhaps start with the prestige for for many people and then for 942 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,280 those that want to catch the waves, maximum maneuverability 943 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,200 that that with it. I like the name. 944 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:22,200 I like the idea of naming things around, around their kind of 945 00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,040 functional elements and benefits. 946 00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,920 It's, yeah, I think it's a better way to go than X and 947 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,480 ABC's, for sure. If you wanted that sort of 948 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:30,920 feedback. You probably knew that already, 949 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,360 though. It's a, you know, this is a fun 950 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:34,680 sport. I think we should have more fun 951 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,200 with it sometimes than the way things are named, you know, so 952 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,280 well done for that. I come from a marketing and and 953 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,040 brand strategy background, so I want to go to kind of a higher 954 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,600 level now. Kabrina operates in a in a 955 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:51,240 really competitive marketplace. What do you think most clearly 956 00:48:51,240 --> 00:48:55,400 separates Kabrina from its competitors out there as a as an 957 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,520 organization and brand? The brand was a part of the Neil 958 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,560 Pride Group for what, 20 years roughly. 959 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,960 And then we took over right in the middle of COVID. 960 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,840 And, you know, the first few years I'd say was mostly a, you 961 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,760 know, a bit of a, you know, you know, I wouldn't say it's a 962 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,320 circus, but it was, you know, there was a lot of crazy things 963 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,040 going on that nobody had seen before, right? 964 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:22,080 Everyone from some of our investors who are kite borders 965 00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,320 and, and have been very successful in their lives and 966 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,680 have seen a little bit everything, even they, you know, 967 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,880 I remember one of the first things he said is, you know, if 968 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,080 you guys come out of this OK, you'll be in that 1% of 1% who, 969 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,200 you know, have dealt with these kind of problems in your 970 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,920 lifetime. And I think, you know, because 971 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,240 we took over the company in such a chaotic period of time, you 972 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:45,120 know, we didn't have a lot of time to reflect on what we stood 973 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,120 for in our brand. You know, we were really just 974 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,680 trying to preserve what we loved in this company. 975 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:52,600 And I think most people who have been a part of Cabrina, you 976 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,240 know, they love it because they've been a part of it for a 977 00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:57,040 long time. They love what it was. 978 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,920 And I'd say moving forward, you know, I think what I want our 979 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,560 brand to stand for is, I mean, you could say, you know, 980 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,520 positive values and Aloha and all these things. 981 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,960 And then that's true. But you know, we we truly are a 982 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,120 family oriented company. I've lived with our our head of 983 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:21,840 sales and I grew up with our CEOI did sales work with our 984 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:26,480 brand manager Dave. You know, most of our sales reps 985 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:28,680 have come up from our retail division. 986 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,920 So understanding this and that that's a part of the company is, 987 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,480 is really important to me. You know, when we hire people, 988 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,760 I, I, I'm thinking where are they going to be in 10 years in 989 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,480 the company? Because I'd like to see that. 990 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,080 I grew up with the company myself. 991 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,520 And you know, I hope every 1617 year old, every intern that we 992 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,160 take on, you know, I hope they're the head of a department 993 00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,520 in 10 or 15 years from now that that isn't probably going to be 994 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,920 our marketing strategy and, and how we brand ourselves. 995 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,880 But look, this is a small niche industry. 996 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,640 And for the people listening in, you know, when they think of our 997 00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,320 brand, I want them to think that because that's what's important 998 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,000 to me, to be frank. Yeah, yeah. 999 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,720 And if, if someone chooses to buy into the Cabrina brand, 1000 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,760 another kind of brand strategy question here without much 1001 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,600 notice at all, what do you think that says about them or what 1002 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,560 would you like it to say about them? 1003 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,200 How should it reflect on them? What sort of person are they? 1004 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:26,000 Well, you know, I think when it comes to actually purchasing our 1005 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,960 products and they're going to say, hey, I'm going to buy a 1006 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,160 Cabrina product over another brand's product. 1007 00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:35,320 Look, we, we don't, we're not very good at doing the, you 1008 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,880 know, 30% thinner, 20% better. This I think one of our 1009 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,360 marketing messages that our brand manager put together was 1010 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:47,400 130% less BS. And so I, I think, you know, I, 1011 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,760 if I, if somebody's ever buying our product because of a 1012 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,800 marketing message like that, I think, you know, good, I guess 1013 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,400 that they bought it, but that's probably not, that wasn't the 1014 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,560 intentional strategy. I think you know what people 1015 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,400 when they buy our products, I, I would hope they think that, hey, 1016 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,400 you know, we stand for, for a brand that is going to give you 1017 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,320 the honest, straightforward feedback of what we think works 1018 00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,960 and how we think it's, it's in the market and that's a high 1019 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,440 quality product and it's for the average rider. 1020 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,280 But at the same time, you know, we we certainly offer for some 1021 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,120 more high performance product in our range as well. 1022 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,360 But I don't want to shy away from the fact that, you know, we 1023 00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,920 do spend a lot of time designing things to make you a better 1024 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:30,160 rider and not necessarily just the one for the the top pro on 1025 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:31,800 the beach. Yeah, yeah. 1026 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,120 Any thoughts on that last from a foil designer perspective? 1027 00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,560 It's a bit of an obscure question for for designer 1028 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,520 probably. No, I think, I think what it 1029 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:47,040 says about the customer picking that product over others, it's a 1030 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,960 it's a feel thing and it's, it's recognizing a good quality, good 1031 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,800 performance that allows you to just have fun. 1032 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,760 It's not to John's point, it's not about chasing the 20% 1033 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,600 lighter or the is the holistic approach to the product. 1034 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,120 And I think that that would be reflected in anyone purchasing 1035 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,480 it. And then of course, that 1036 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,640 they're, they're awesome. Get that tattoo, get the tattoo. 1037 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,480 Last question in this time you believe is the biggest 1038 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,880 misconception about the Kabrina brand and where do you think 1039 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,360 that might have come from? That's a good. 1040 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,400 Question you know, it's funny because I I deal with 1041 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,280 conversations all over the world. 1042 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:29,040 You know, today I was on with people in Asia and South Africa, 1043 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,960 Europe K and and obviously here in the US So it's I definitely 1044 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,320 hear misconceptions. Yeah, in Australia, right. 1045 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,560 So I hear a lot of different things. 1046 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,840 I would say one of the more consistent ones, right, is I 1047 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,560 think, you know, the switchblade might still be, you know, I 1048 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,720 don't have the numbers to validate this, but I think most 1049 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:52,160 people who've been in the kite bring space are aware that the 1050 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,880 switchblade for many years was that one of the most crazy 1051 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,680 dominant kites in the market. It might be the single most 1052 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:02,000 produced kite of any model, right, because of how long it's 1053 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,880 been running over 20 years, that one model in the world and I 1054 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,600 think a lot of for many years, people got the impression this 1055 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,440 is a slow kite just for beginners, which is now 1056 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,360 definitely not the case. The switchblade is actually very 1057 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,280 different type than it was just a few years ago. 1058 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,480 Yes, it reaches a wide range of audience, but it's not just for 1059 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,600 beginners. And so I think a lot of people 1060 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,720 when they, they hear about our products, they assume it's just 1061 00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:25,960 for beginners. And even though I just said a 1062 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,760 few minutes ago that we, we do make a product that's very 1063 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:30,760 accessible for people, that doesn't mean it's a beginner 1064 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,120 product. I really think that it's a, it's 1065 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,120 an important differentiation from we make beginner products 1066 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,480 to we make products that make you a better rider. 1067 00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,960 It might, I mean, the prestige is not your day one foil at all, 1068 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,920 but it is a foil that absolutely you can grow with. 1069 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,560 I mean, I've been foiling for 10 years and I'm not outgrowing 1070 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,600 that foil anytime soon. But we do make an emphasis on 1071 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,640 making it fun and user friendly. That doesn't have to be, you 1072 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:57,760 know, I think some people like to say that that's beginner 1073 00:54:57,760 --> 00:54:59,640 friendly. It's user friendly, beginner 1074 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,920 friendly are not the same thing. Beginner friendly is a, you 1075 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,240 know, 1800 mid aspect foil on 130 leader board, right? 1076 00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:08,640 That's not the same thing as user friendly. 1077 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,960 And I think that's that's a big misconception about the brand 1078 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:12,720 from some markets I see at least. 1079 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,040 Any any thoughts last on that one to? 1080 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,440 Think, I think actually, John, the one thing I that I stood out 1081 00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,160 to my to me was that I think in the past some people have looked 1082 00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,400 at Cabrina as a Maui brand. Maybe these days they look at it 1083 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,800 as AUS brand. It's a global brand. 1084 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,640 I mean, I'm in Australia, we have guys in Philippines and 1085 00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,200 Cape Town and in Canada. We have people all over the 1086 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,040 world. And so it's not about, you know, 1087 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,320 getting everyone together in a small town somewhere. 1088 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,400 It's it's a global brand with the best guys regardless of 1089 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,880 their geographical position and with the global mindset. 1090 00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,520 Yeah, good point. All right, let's finish with 1091 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,520 some quick fire questions. Let's get an answer from both of 1092 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,720 you as we work through each question. 1093 00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,000 First question, if you could foil any. 1094 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,400 Let's start. Let's do John and then Lars. 1095 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,480 So this helps you know when to jump in. 1096 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,160 If you could foil anywhere in the world tomorrow, where would 1097 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,040 it be? Byron Bay. 1098 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,520 Well done. You all right? 1099 00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,280 I'm going to go back to my host brother of Car Kanaha in Maui. 1100 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:15,760 Love this. Yeah, yeah. 1101 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,920 And what's the most underrated skill of foil rider should 1102 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,640 practice? Well, you guys, I, I really love 1103 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,840 downwind runs, whether it's on a pair wing or a wing or a kite or 1104 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,320 whatever. I love downwind runs. 1105 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,240 I went something and I think what I see, I see a lot of, I 1106 00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,360 know a lot of guys who can pump up on foil really well in flat 1107 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,760 water, all the stuff. But reading lines downwind is 1108 00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:40,040 really important skill for people to to develop. 1109 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,000 And you know, there's no mastering it. 1110 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:45,240 It's sort of you can only keep getting better at it. 1111 00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:47,440 And I think that's something that people need to, you know, 1112 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:48,600 you can have the best phone in the world. 1113 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,520 If you can't read waves and lines you know you're not going 1114 00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:52,680 to, you're not going to have a good time. 1115 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:55,600 I've seen in the past people learning with footstraps on and 1116 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,840 I would say learn without footstrap so that you can feel 1117 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,520 the balance and you're not forcing the board or the foil, 1118 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,360 you're learning how to ride the Fort. 1119 00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,480 And what's the most rewarding thing about foiling for you? 1120 00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,080 Oh man, I mean, honestly, it's just you. 1121 00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:13,440 All you have to do is foil one time to know the answer. 1122 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:16,320 It's hard to say it, but it's easy to feel it. 1123 00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:22,240 It's, it's just that ultimate freedom and that, that, that 1124 00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,400 first time you get on a foil and you don't hear anything. 1125 00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,720 It's just silent, right? Because it's so quiet out of the 1126 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,240 water. It's really hard to to There's 1127 00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,520 not a lot of sports that beat that sensation. 1128 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:33,480 What John said. But I'd put the word to it. 1129 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,200 It's flying. And what's the best advice 1130 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:37,800 you've ever received about foiling? 1131 00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:42,960 The best advice I've actually received was was pump less and 1132 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,440 turn more. I think people like to default 1133 00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,080 into just stay flat and pump through sections where if you if 1134 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,200 you start understanding lines and waves and you can actually 1135 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:57,200 just carve through them. And not only does it save your 1136 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:02,160 your body and your respiratory system, but it's also way more 1137 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,240 enjoyable that. That's a good point, John. 1138 00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,720 I mean, it's like it's like surfing when you're learning to 1139 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,000 surf, you're just going down the wave, down the wave. 1140 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,120 But the game, the whole thing changes when you start thinking 1141 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:13,360 I've got to get across this wave. 1142 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:17,400 And you're right, I see people just riding swell straight down 1143 00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:19,760 and getting to that next level where you're travelling a 1144 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:22,560 longer, moving around on a infinitely more satisfying. 1145 00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,640 Yeah, back to your last I. Honestly, I'm blank. 1146 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:27,160 That's all right. That's all right. 1147 00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:33,280 Which of the kind of union foils set up do you keep coming back 1148 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,240 to with your own foiling and why? 1149 00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:39,360 9:05 with the 160, it's just, I mean and look, I of course I 1150 00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,760 love it. I've helped bars build it right? 1151 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:43,680 Like so to me, I built it for me. 1152 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,960 I said what do I need in life? I'm 85 kilos, I got 3 kids. 1153 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:50,400 I don't get to ride as much as I used to. 1154 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,360 How do I make my life amazing? Isn't that that foil? 1155 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,640 I'd be very happy with, you know, just taking that foil 1156 00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,440 anywhere in the world at any time and not worrying about do I 1157 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,280 have the right setup? I mean it just works. 1158 00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:03,720 Yeah, yeah. And Laos, what are you? 1159 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,920 What are you preparing? Yeah, of course it does depend 1160 00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,040 on you on a wing, are you prone, the size of the wave, etcetera. 1161 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:14,160 But yeah, 905160 step if you have to pick one, that's the one 1162 00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,600 that hangs right there. Yeah, that sounds like the 1163 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,200 retailers need to make sure they get a few of those in stock. 1164 00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:21,320 Thank you so much to both of you. 1165 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,680 People might not realise but it takes time to find times for us 1166 00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,840 all to chat. So I appreciate you giving me 1167 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:28,800 and the listeners the time today. 1168 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,520 And and look well done in the fall system. 1169 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:35,960 Everything I I hear about the union system, it's all positive. 1170 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,480 Local riders here are loving it and we're going to be looking 1171 00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:41,960 forward to the Tweaker and the Whippet, and I'm loving the 1172 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,920 names, so keep them flowing. So yeah, thank you, John. 1173 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,320 Thank you, Lars, for joining us on the floorless broadcast. 1174 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:49,840 Fantastic. Thanks so much.