1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,840 True story. A month ago I had a lot more 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,320 hair. It has gone that quickly because 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,120 I don't know, I don't know about anyone else here, but I feel the 4 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:10,640 pressure. The pressure's there. 5 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:15,120 Welcome to Business Analysis Live. 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,360 I'm your host, Susan Moore, community engagement manager 7 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,280 with the International Institute of Business Analysis. 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,480 I explore topics with industry guests about the work of 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,400 business analysis professionals and how their work helps 10 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,640 organizations achieve better outcomes. 11 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,560 And Yep, we take your questions too. 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,560 Thanks for listening. Let's get started. 13 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,920 Our world is changing. I bet you are feeling it too as 14 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,560 business analysis professionals. And maybe it's changing in ways 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,040 that you expected or maybe it's changing in ways that you aren't 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,520 expecting and you are wondering what that means for you and how 17 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,880 you should get ready for that. Well, today we've got a guest 18 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,080 who's been thinking about that and speaking about that 19 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,840 recently. And so I want to bring to the 20 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,680 stage Ryan Foster. Hey, Ryan, and how are you? 21 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,640 I'm. Good. 22 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,080 And yourself. I am doing really well. 23 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,440 So we're going to be talking about what's redefining business 24 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,640 analysis right now because I feel like that's the only thing 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,920 that we can wrap our arms around it's right now. 26 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:29,960 Exactly. Yeah, well, listen, I you are a 27 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:33,960 face within our community and with within the South African 28 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:37,360 business analysis community. For those folks who may not know 29 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,040 you, why don't you introduce yourself? 30 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:40,480 Tell us a little bit about yourself. 31 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,200 So I hate introductions. That's the first thing. 32 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,320 I think the important part is I'm Ryan and I am based in 33 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,840 Chandersburg in South Africa. And I while my title is not 34 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,800 currently business analyst, I am performing business analysis and 35 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,960 I have been Dean so for many, many years and also very 36 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,840 passionate about the role that business analysts or business 37 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,760 analysis is a skill plays in, in, in, in the broader business 38 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:08,199 sense. So I guess that's all the 39 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:10,160 relevant bits. The the the rest, people can go 40 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,800 read up about me, but it's not that interesting. 41 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,680 They can find out more about you on your LinkedIn profile or one 42 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,760 of the BIOS from the places where you're speaking. 43 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,360 Exactly. Speaking of that, I actually had 44 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,360 the opportunity to meet you in person, which is such a joy when 45 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,640 I get to meet folks in in person. 46 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:38,840 We met in Toronto and then had a very chilly walk down a Toronto 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,200 St. together. Very, very cold for me. 48 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,400 Neither of us were prepared. You could tell that we didn't 49 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,360 belong in Toronto. Yeah, exactly. 50 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,680 We had our Blazers on and we're thinking, what? 51 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,760 It's so windy? Why is it cold? 52 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:02,000 It's April. Tell us a little bit about that 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,760 talk, the talks that you were doing at BBC, because some of 54 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,520 those what as you and I were chatting before this, some of 55 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,200 those were inspiration for today's talk. 56 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,320 Yeah. So I mean, I think to put it in 57 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,960 perspective that one of the opening slides in my talk was 58 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,160 this is not an AI talk because I think at the moment everything 59 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,520 heads that way. Every conversation heads to AI. 60 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:28,600 Everything we talk about is AI and it's exciting and we should 61 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,520 be talking about it. But I think what I, what I, what 62 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,440 I want to focus on is the things that are not AI, that enable AI 63 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,960 and, and that was a lot of the, the content that, that I was 64 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,000 chatting around at BBC. And the thing that's the most 65 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,680 interesting to me is that my view on all of this changes 66 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,120 daily. So what I thought last week is 67 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,960 not what I think the week before and the week before that, the, 68 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,840 the, the change in our industry is just so significant and so 69 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,200 quick and happening every second of the day. 70 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,000 It's changing. I come in every day and there's 71 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,760 something new for me. And that's really what what the 72 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,880 talk went through is, is you know, what, what do we do now? 73 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,240 What's changing, what's different, what stays the same? 74 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,080 It was interesting also the side conversations in the halls and 75 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,160 the conversations with people hearing what they thinking. 76 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,320 And the thing that scares me the most personally is you. 77 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,280 If you've been working in this industry for a while, you might 78 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:31,640 consider yourself an expert. You might consider yourself one 79 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,360 knows what they're doing and all of a sudden we don't. 80 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,760 All of a sudden, you know, 20 years of experience doesn't make 81 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,120 a difference because everything's completely 82 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,600 different to how it was when you were doing it six months ago. 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,640 And it's interesting to see how people are adapting to something 84 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,440 so fundamentally different. Yeah. 85 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:57,040 I I feel like for a profession that is enabling change, in some 86 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,280 ways we as business analysis professionals aren't great at 87 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:03,640 changing. Exactly. 88 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:04,640 Exactly. Yeah. 89 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,400 And. 100%, yeah. OK. 90 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,320 No, you go. Yeah, I was saying I'm gonna, I 91 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,160 said that often we, we resist change and change scares us. 92 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,640 And and right now we, we can't be scared of it because it's, 93 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,000 it's, yeah, whether we like it or not, it is changing. 94 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,440 We are changing and we have to adjust and we've always done 95 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,920 something a certain way. We've got comfortable to in 96 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,520 doing it that way. And now we can't do it that way 97 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,800 anymore. It presents opportunity, but 98 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,360 it's scary. I mean, I was, I was just before 99 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,760 this, I was on a short other conference. 100 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,200 And the first slide that someone put up is what are you? 101 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,320 What are you going to be when AI takes over your role? 102 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,640 And it's quite funny people. This one's going to be a Potter 103 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,000 and this one's going to be a farmer. 104 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,080 And it was quite a lively discussion. 105 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:56,080 Is it that drastic? I I hope not, but it could be. 106 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,600 We don't know. So, you know, we, I, I talked 107 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,480 about the right now is really the only thing we can, we can 108 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,680 prepare for. What do you think are some of 109 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,200 the skills that we as business analysis professionals can lean 110 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,240 into right now to help us during this change? 111 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,880 And what skills do you think help to move us along with the 112 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:26,040 change in a productive way? Yeah, so there was in, in doing 113 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,600 my, my talk at BBCI also did a bit of research into, into the 114 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:30,880 topics and what, what's going on. 115 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,400 And it was a, it was a thing, a statement that I, that I read 116 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,120 and, and it really stood out to me. 117 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:42,000 It says both humans and AI struggle with unstructured 118 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,120 complexity. And, and our job as BAS is to 119 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,240 take is to turn, you know, something that's chaotic chaos 120 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,720 into something that's not so chaotic. 121 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,680 And if you think about explaining something in AI, 122 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,720 let's talk about a prompt. If I give an AIA prompt and I 123 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,720 just go, and I think I used a different example. 124 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,200 But if, if I go right now and I ask Co pilots give me a recipe. 125 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:06,600 And and I actually did this earlier so I didn't have to type 126 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,680 out now. It just gave me a recipe. 127 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,800 It said, hey, and I'm reading from my other screen of you. 128 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,400 It's got creamy Peri peri chicken bowls. 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,200 And the point that I was, I was trying to elaborate this. 130 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,840 I didn't give it any other context besides give me a recipe 131 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,280 and all that's going to spit back to me is something random 132 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,320 because AI will always answer you. 133 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,440 It'll always give you an answer even if there isn't really an 134 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,320 answer. It's not going to ask questions 135 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,560 and say, OK, are you vegetarian? So if I'm vegetarian and it's 136 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,520 giving you peri peri chickens, am I allergic to anything? 137 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,720 What kind of foods do I like and and can go beyond that? 138 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,000 Where do I live? Maybe I live in an area where 139 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,640 where chicken is not available. Maybe the spices that it's 140 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:44,960 suggesting I don't have available. 141 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,960 What's in my fridge? There's so much of this context 142 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,160 that if you don't give to AI, it doesn't give you a usable 143 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,720 answer. And in my mind, that is very 144 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,280 similar to the work we do right now. 145 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,480 We take a really complex scenario and we, we meet with 146 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,760 our stakeholders and we try and understand what we're looking 147 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,640 for and we do some research and, and we put that together and we 148 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,720 structure that that complexity so that we end up with the right 149 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,240 solution at the end of the day. And I think that is, is where 150 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,560 the skill lies. Just because it's a machine 151 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,360 doesn't make it, it doesn't make it any easier to understand. 152 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,800 And one of the one of the one of the topics or or statements that 153 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,880 that I delved into was around cognitive load theory. 154 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:29,440 I'm not sure if you've ever heard of cognitive load theory. 155 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:30,640 I have. Yep, I have. 156 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,080 But, but to me it just, it just, it's just stuck because I was 157 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,320 like, that's exactly what we do. And, and, and in theory what 158 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,480 it's saying is, is that there's, there's different types of load. 159 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,440 You've got intrinsic load, you've got extremist load and 160 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:50,160 domain load and in, in, in, in, in the way that humans think. 161 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,600 It's very similar to machines. We don't handle if I just throw 162 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,520 everything at you and don't explain it in a very clear and 163 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,200 concise way. So if you in your short term 164 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,640 memory, if I'm just throwing concepts at you and I'm like, AI 165 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,480 does this and AI does that and do this and do that, you don't 166 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,560 have time to process that and put it into your long term 167 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:09,200 memory. And the ability to take 168 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,720 something like intrinsic load, like we have a really complex 169 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,640 subject matter. If we're talking about rocket 170 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,720 science, rocket science is complex because it's rocket 171 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,240 science. You can't simplify rocket 172 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,240 science. Or you can simplify how you 173 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,760 explain it, but you can't simplify the the subject. 174 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,040 But in the extremist mode is how you break that down into an 175 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,360 understandable way of, of explaining it. 176 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,640 And I think that's fundamentally what we do. 177 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,040 If, if I'm, if I'm sitting with business and they explain 178 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,480 something, I'm drawing, I'm writing something down. 179 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,680 I'm modelling it in a way that simplifies the concept. 180 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,040 And in taking a really complex subject and explaining it and 181 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,880 breaking it down in a really simple way, I, I, I, I enable it 182 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,240 to move from that, that short term memory into the long term 183 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,680 memory. And the same happens with a, 184 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,480 with a machine. A machine also needs to 185 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,120 understand things simply. If I give it a crazy prompt or 186 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,720 crazy example and don't really explain what I'm saying, and I'm 187 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:10,120 just typing and I'm, I'm saying it in way too many words and I'm 188 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,760 complicating everything, it's going to give me a complicated 189 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,840 output. So I think those things are 190 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,320 similar concepts, even though we're now talking to machines. 191 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:26,000 Yeah, which I find interesting. Yeah, IA long time ago I did 192 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,280 some graduate work in adult learning and that's where I got 193 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,280 exposed to this idea of cognitive flow theory and how 194 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,360 our brains as adults work. You're and you're right, we've 195 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,560 got that short term memory, which is where we take in all of 196 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:44,800 that stuff and then our brain is basically a filing system. 197 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,720 It says, do I have I ever heard of this thing? 198 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,360 Oh, OK, Yep, I've heard of this. I'll file that away because I 199 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,000 already know that. Oh, but this is a new thing now 200 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,000 I need to make sense of that. So what I hear. 201 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,200 So by the way, I thought that was one of the most powerful 202 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,480 things that I learned in my adult learning because it helped 203 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:10,960 me to to understand how people are taking in some of the stuff 204 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,560 that we're doing. So what I hear you say is 205 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:20,480 something that we can be doing and leaning into now is this 206 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:27,560 idea that our work is and will continue to be about helping to 207 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,480 deal with that complexity by breaking it apart. 208 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,960 And I actually, I think your talk was on decomposition, if I 209 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:35,200 recall. Yep. 210 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,200 And so breaking it down for the purposes of helping to make 211 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,320 sense of it in organizations like that, I think is still a 212 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,080 very human skill that we need to bring to the table. 213 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,200 Yeah. And, and I think you're going to 214 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,160 it's going to be how we do it might be different. 215 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,040 But another another point that I brought up is that I believe 216 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,120 that AI will speed up execution. It doesn't speed up thinking. 217 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,720 We still need to do that part and, and, and I'll caveat that 218 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,560 with a yet because I don't know what the, what the future holds 219 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,120 right now. We need to do the thinking. 220 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,000 I need to, when I, when I say to AI and give me a recipe, I, I 221 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,320 need to give it some thinking. I need a recipe for this 222 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:15,880 purpose. I want to do this. 223 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,760 I need to direct it. It's it's just going to going to 224 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,240 move it move in the direction that I tell it to go in. 225 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,320 But I think, you know, the, the change in the world and the 226 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,080 change in our profession is maybe coming around the 227 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,080 execution side. I think there's a lot of stuff 228 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,360 happening, execution. I can, I, as ABA now can build 229 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,240 an app. I can build something. 230 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,440 I can, I cannot just talk about building it, but I can all of a 231 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,760 sudden start building it. I can get involved in the debt 232 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,680 process. That's exciting. 233 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,120 It's fascinating. You're still here. 234 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,120 I'm just reading this. There's an interesting comment 235 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,160 here. And do you see the the using 236 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,320 BRDS and FRDS in in the future with AI? 237 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,000 I'll, I'll, I'll read the bigger one now, but like there's a good 238 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,920 example. And this is something as, as I 239 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,840 said, my view on this changes daily. 240 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,520 Originally my thinking was, you know, you had user stories and 241 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,080 user stories. That's that's the be all. 242 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,120 We don't like BRD documents. But this week I found myself 243 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,680 writing an agent that created ABID document because ABOD 244 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,480 document is a great way of it's it, it simplifies complexity. 245 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:19,400 It's got everything on all in one place. 246 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,160 Yes, it's detailed. So I, I asked an agent that I, I 247 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,280 created to reverse engineer some some code into a requirements 248 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,080 document. I didn't say to go write me user 249 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,160 stories. I thought, well, Abid was an 250 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,200 effective way to do it because it lists everything. 251 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,880 It's got all the, and things like use cases. 252 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,320 They're, they're extremely good ways of putting all the content 253 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,560 together. And the, the, the future skill 254 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:46,120 is not how we, how we articulate it. 255 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,640 Our skill at the moment is how do we articulate our, our 256 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,800 solutions. We spend a lot of this time 257 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,840 documenting a famous quote I'll use from a good friend, Adrian 258 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,400 Reed is how how many of us spend hours trying to figure out on 259 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,760 our Visio diagrams if that if that line is straight and we do, 260 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,240 we we'll spend time making sure the document is preventable. 261 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:09,800 If all the lines are straight, the the contents, right, the 262 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,400 spelling's right, the grammar's right. 263 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,440 That kind of stuff in future doesn't take long. 264 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,400 That's the easy part, gathering the the information, gathering 265 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:23,320 what I call the context, getting that all together so that I can 266 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,560 explain it to a human or a computer so that they can take 267 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,440 that and do something with it. To me, that is the skill that 268 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,680 that that is going to come out. Well, I think you bring up a 269 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:35,360 good point there, so here I'm going to pop. 270 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,120 This and I think, sorry I'm just reading the second comment. 271 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,400 Yeah. So I'm so this is the one that 272 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,040 that you were just answering. So Richard, thanks for your 273 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,560 question. Do you see using BRDS and FRD? 274 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,520 So I just want to kind of synthesize what you said there 275 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,560 because it, it's it, it is I think 2 pieces. 276 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,400 How, how is our work changing now, but also how are our 277 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,400 deliverables changing now? So what I heard you say is what 278 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,560 we are doing is helping to, to create some structure and 279 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,360 clarity around complex problems and things that are happening. 280 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,800 That's our that's the focus of our work. 281 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,320 And BRDS and FRDS are less about the deliverable that we're 282 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,240 handing off because to your point, AI can help with that. 283 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,480 Those outputs now become thinking documents. 284 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,280 And I think that's what Angela Wick calls them. 285 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,440 They're thinking documents. They represent a way that we are 286 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,560 getting, we are making that complexity visible and we're 287 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,800 breaking it down so that we can have somebody read it and go, 288 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,000 Yep, that's what I was thinking or Yep, OK, I see how we got 289 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,960 there. It is not the end state. 290 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,600 It is just Here's every here's Here's how we've broken it down. 291 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:53,400 Yeah. And, and if you think about it, 292 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,640 how many times, I mean, when we write sort of a user story, 293 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,120 you'll give it to a business user and and they kind of what 294 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,000 are you on about given what given when then as a user, they 295 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,360 get confused and I get the, the future is I go to a meeting and 296 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,960 I spend that time not taking notes, but I'm talking to 297 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:12,680 people, I'm gathering information, we're having 298 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,360 conversations. At the end of that, that whole 299 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,560 thing's recorded. It's it's turned into notes. 300 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,560 If I want to turn those notes into a set of BRDABRD document, 301 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,840 I ask it to. If I want to turn it into a set 302 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:24,640 of user stories, I can convert it to that. 303 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,560 It doesn't take time to do those things in the future. 304 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,680 And I think the skill is what happens in the meeting. 305 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:34,040 And another one of my favorite quotes is that is Heather Martin 306 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,320 Maine's quote, which is business analysis thinking profession. 307 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,120 And that stands true. Now that's the part we do the 308 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,720 thinking. And so, I mean, there's another 309 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,280 question here around, you know, what skills we, you know, what 310 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,960 skills are we do or we continue to do and what are we replacing 311 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,240 with to meet that thinking part? That's what we need to hone. 312 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,400 I think we need to learn the, the AI tools and, and learn how 313 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,400 to use AI cleverly and how to build, you know, do things like 314 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,240 build agents and, and have conversations with the dev team. 315 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,560 But the thinking part is where, where a lot of work is needed to 316 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,480 produce an output. Now, I mean, I can, as I said, I 317 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,800 can run an agent that can reverse engineer a tiny piece of 318 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,480 code and I have a 30 page document done in 5 minutes 319 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,240 possible. And it's that's not that's not 320 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:24,920 the skill. It's knowing which which which 321 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,280 thing to tell us to knowing. It's the thinking part that 322 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:29,880 makes. Sense, yeah. 323 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,480 And, and the thinking, I think includes understanding enough 324 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,320 about the context to know what are the important parts and what 325 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,400 are the, the, the parts that are just noise. 326 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,480 Because sometimes I, I think we, we, we don't need to give our 327 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,920 stakeholders every single thing that we've learned. 328 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,680 We need to give them the important parts that are going 329 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,200 to drive a decision or drive a priority. 330 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,280 And so I think also, I don't know if that's maybe that's 331 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,160 called judgment, judgment and discretion. 332 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,360 I think it's another piece of that thinking competency that 333 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:10,680 we've got to build. Fully, fully, I mean, it comes 334 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,960 to sort of the, the, the latest comments over there, I'd say. 335 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,320 So AI now writes the BRD and, but does it align or evaluate 336 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,560 the business? And, and, and that's a great 337 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,120 concept because I think in the past we, we sort of did 338 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,240 requirements and we would meet with some developers, convince 339 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,680 them to develop it. They develop it, We got tested 340 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,000 and, and we leave this thing. But now the skill is it's both 341 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,480 before and after and, and we've got extra tools and extra 342 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,720 capabilities that we can handle them before part better. 343 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,840 We, we can synthesize the data that's available with us. 344 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,280 We can, we can do research easier. 345 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,960 You know, if I want to understand, I did it last week, 346 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,560 I want to understand that the piece of functionality we're 347 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,360 working on how other banks in South Africa are doing it, for 348 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,360 example. And I was able to produce a 349 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,600 comprehensive research document really quickly. 350 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,160 So before I can, I can pull it in, so I can evaluate, I can 351 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,240 make some decision to your point, I can synthesize, I can, 352 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,520 I can use judgement. But then afterwards there's, 353 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,680 there's a new thing. Now with the tools that are 354 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,200 becoming available, I can potentially see the impact of, 355 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,880 of the piece of work I'm doing. So I could in theory have a, 356 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,160 have a direct database access that I can go and see how many 357 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,160 people use that functionality and I can consume that data. 358 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,240 Previously I, I would need developers to build reports. 359 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,320 And now I, you know, with things like MCPS over data, I can go 360 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:34,120 and see the data myself and have a retrospective look at that 361 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:38,440 functionality and continuously evaluate it, or build an agent 362 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,680 that continuously evaluates it and spits an outcome out to me. 363 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,520 And then I use my judgements to decide what to do next. 364 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,880 So I think those are all the possibilities of the role going 365 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,880 forward. And all of those things that you 366 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:55,120 described are happening probably on the same day. 367 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,240 So this idea that a lot of us have been working with either in 368 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,480 sprints or iterations, whatever you call those things that that 369 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,680 have been time boxed. Now instead of it being two 370 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,480 weeks now, we're talking about like a couple of days where we 371 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:14,160 are able to to do the thinking and decision making and 372 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,080 implementation and the testing. And that that is happening at 373 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:22,880 rapid speed. Yeah, you can do a lot more in a 374 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,080 shorter time. And I think that brings up other 375 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,200 skills that are going to be important. 376 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,520 So not to speak badly about project managers, but they're 377 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,200 always on our case. And now we need to probably get 378 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,760 some more of those project management skill sets because at 379 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,360 the moment our teams will be working on 3-4 different 380 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,320 requirements in future. Because it's it's easy to 381 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,000 prototype, it's quicker to deliver, the execution's 382 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,680 quicker. It's not, it's not good enough 383 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,840 to be able to only work on three or four and you're working on 34 384 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:52,520 different features at any point in time. 385 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,520 Absolutely, there's a lot more going on. 386 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,240 Even though it's quicker, I'm not spending as much time 387 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,040 writing the document, I'm spending more time out there. 388 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,360 So I think, you know, I don't necessarily think the skills are 389 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:07,040 being replaced, but I think some of them are becoming more 390 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,680 prevalent than they used to be. The skill was often, you know, 391 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,920 this one, this person writes a great document. 392 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:13,480 They know how to articulate things. 393 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,680 They're not to synthesize data. And that becomes less important. 394 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,960 And you, you should think more to the thinking side. 395 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,800 And then I see other comments, I think so YouTube comments over 396 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,040 there, which, which is quite an interesting one about entering 397 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:32,280 AI as the full project context. And I think this is a fantastic 398 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:35,320 place that we can play. So we look at some of the modern 399 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,440 AI and tech that's out there. You you build agents and you 400 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,000 build things called skills. So you've got clawed that you 401 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,040 build skills. And then you could we use sort 402 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,560 of VS Code. So we'll we'll build skill files 403 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,600 there. And to me, skills are are kind 404 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,760 of packaged and instructions. So you could put your 405 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,520 architecture as a skill and, and it can understand how your 406 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,400 system is designed and how things fit together so that, you 407 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,240 know, when I'm sitting with business and they say, hey, I 408 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,720 want a thing that does XY and Z right then and there, You don't 409 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,040 need to take that back to developer. 410 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,080 You can see up front. So this might not fit our 411 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,800 architecture or there's a different way we can deliver it. 412 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,880 And I think AI gives us on the ground access to, to information 413 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,400 as opposed to retrospective. And we can make better decisions 414 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,280 and we can, we can also test things, the ability to to build 415 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,280 an app while you and I are talking. 416 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,320 We could be right now and I could just be building a little 417 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,040 quick app, show it to you while we're sitting here and you go, 418 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,640 yeah, that's, that's on the way there. 419 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,520 It fits. And then and then we can move 420 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,360 forward. That's fascinating to me. 421 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,760 Yeah, it when you introduced yourself today, you said I'm a 422 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,240 product leader, but that's kind of where I'm at today. 423 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,000 I, you know, I don't who knows what tomorrow will bring. 424 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,680 I feel like we are starting to exist in a world where maybe 425 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,080 those job titles don't mean quite as much. 426 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,320 It's really the collection of skills and competencies that we 427 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,080 can bring. Where, where do you see, do you 428 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,240 think that the term business analyst, do you think that 429 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,440 evolves along in these rapid rapidly changing times? 430 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,720 So I do so, so to be controversial, are we still 431 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,760 going to have a business status in the future? 432 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:20,040 I think if if we don't take control of our our industry and 433 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,640 our profession and our skill sets, we might not. 434 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,200 But I think there's an opportunity for us to do that. 435 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,280 And it's to me, it's less about, I've got a, there's a problem 436 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,080 in, in a business, let me call a business analyst and rather 437 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,040 becoming the person people want to call, Oh, there's a problem. 438 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,160 Let's call Ryan. I don't care what Ryan's called, 439 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,280 but I know Ryan's got the skills to solve the problem. 440 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,000 And if we all think with that mindset, it doesn't really 441 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,480 matter what you called, it really doesn't. 442 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,040 And yes, they are, you know what your title and that is 443 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,320 important. And they are, they are things to 444 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:54,400 that. But I think it's, it's, it's 445 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,720 less about what you call yourself and more about what, 446 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,560 what you do. And I think there's a really 447 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,600 interesting question here around, are we going to have 448 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,640 less BAS? So, you know, if you're a 449 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,280 project, you currently have 5 BAS and now we're going to only 450 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,680 have one. And I've seen two different 451 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,080 views on this. View 1 was, is saying, because 452 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,720 we speed up execution now. So the development life cycle, 453 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,560 the ability to take the thinking and make it into a delivered 454 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,600 product is quicker. You're actually going to switch 455 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,600 the other way around. You're going to have one BA to 1 456 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,680 developer or one engineers. The new term, everyone's calling 457 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,360 it. So one product role to one 458 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:37,240 engineering role is going to be 1 to 1, which makes sense 459 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,280 because that person can execute very quickly. 460 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,360 And then I've seen other things saying, well, maybe we're going 461 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,600 to cut down and we're going to have less of everything. 462 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,200 And I think both could be true in a way. 463 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,440 But if we're ensuring that we're constantly adding value, I don't 464 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,120 think we're going to. I don't think there's going to 465 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:56,840 be a problem. And there will always be a role 466 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,360 for us. What it's called, who knows? 467 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,280 Is it a skill set? Yes. 468 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,080 Is it a title? Maybe not, who knows? 469 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,800 And you know, I think a lot of people are worried. 470 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,800 A lot of people are worried what happens to my project? 471 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,040 Are we going to need so many people? 472 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,560 Maybe not. But I think the people that are 473 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,040 left or not even the people that are left, people that are going 474 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,960 to be able to do a lot more. So that's that to me is the 475 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,480 interesting part. Right now I can only do so too 476 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,080 much. Get get AI on, I can do a whole 477 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,760 lot more. I can add a whole lot more 478 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,040 value. So maybe there's just going to 479 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,840 be a lot more change happening, which is good. 480 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,840 Yeah, so I. Invest more in the things that 481 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,680 they're doing here. So I, I hear you saying that 482 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,920 there is also some comfort and literacy around AI that's 483 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,160 required. And whatever this, this role 484 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,920 becomes, if, if in fact it is a role, it, it really sounds like 485 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,360 as you're describing it here today, it is kind of a hybrid 486 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,560 mashup of different kinds of skill sets. 487 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,080 It's a little business analysis, it's a little project 488 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,280 management, it's a little developer, it's a little tester. 489 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,400 Understanding all of those domains because they will be 490 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,120 happening so rapidly, I think is kind of a a, an ideal mixture 491 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:15,880 for somebody that is a really important part of projects in 492 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,000 organizations. I think. 493 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,200 I think that's kind of how I interpret what you're saying We. 494 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,880 Bring things together. Yeah, yeah, we, if we, the 495 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,320 people that bring it all together. 496 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,720 And now we have a little bit of we have some extra skill sets. 497 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,240 So I'm not technical, but all of a sudden I have access to code. 498 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,800 I don't need to be able to recode anymore because something 499 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,040 that in between me and the code can recode for me. 500 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,720 And I don't have to go to developer and say, hey, tell me 501 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,480 how this field works. I can just go ask AI and it's 502 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,680 got access to things. So there's a lot. 503 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,520 There's there's a lot, a lot of exciting things on horizon for 504 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,400 me that enable me to be more effective. 505 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:53,760 And I think that's the exciting part. 506 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,200 So I'm not going to be the person that sits here and say 507 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,000 everyone's safe. Don't worry, everyone's got a 508 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,640 job in five years time. And you know, I am planning, I'm 509 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,840 checking, can I do plumbing? Can I do electrician? 510 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,160 What are the what are the skills that I can do that are going to 511 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,800 be around if my job gets replaced and I'm not doing too 512 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,880 well? So I bet I best learn a hard 513 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,040 skill. But at the same time, I'm 514 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,680 excited because I feel like these now more than ever, I've 515 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:24,680 got more in my in my arsenal that I can go and I can use, I 516 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,360 can use to my my ability and I can do a lot more without asking 517 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,400 40 people, which I really, really enjoy. 518 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,600 I really enjoy that I can be more valuable because I've got 519 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,160 access to the stuff doing my same job, but now I can do it 520 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,200 quicker. I think there are endless 521 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,240 opportunities ahead of us. And if you are someone who wants 522 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,920 to see change in an organization, who believes that 523 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:55,440 you can be part of that change, like this is your time to in a 524 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:01,480 way skill up. But also tune into those skills 525 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,000 around adaptability. Because what I hear you say big 526 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,760 time is what it is going to require on a personal level is a 527 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,800 large amount of adaptability because we don't know. 528 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:15,200 And so you've got to be comfortable with the not knowing 529 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,440 and being able to see the opportunities in what is 530 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,360 happening literally on a day-to-day basis. 531 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,120 No, exactly. And yeah, see in the chat 532 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,160 there's another question around what tools we can use and what 533 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,560 AI tools and and yes, it means less about the tool, it's more 534 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,800 about the concepts. So the way that I heard it 535 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,440 explained recently is for every instruction you get, the first 536 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,120 thing in an AI first environment is to think how could AI help 537 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,800 you do this better and try that. Try it for 5 minutes. 538 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,800 If it doesn't work, leave it and guarantee it the whole way you 539 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,960 did it. But I think there's so many 540 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,240 tools available to us and it depends on your organization. 541 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,080 You know, I work, I work at a bank. 542 00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,920 We can't just do anything we want. 543 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,400 We've got, there's lots of controls and information 544 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,760 security and things like that. We need to be very careful about 545 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,960 that kind of stuff. But we have access to a whole 546 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,600 lot of things. So even if it's research, 547 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,360 research a simple thing like that, try, try, incorporate into 548 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,600 everyday lifestyle. I mean, so it really depends. 549 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,160 We are and we've got access to a whole lot. 550 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,120 So like Jira and Jira Rovo and the Rover identity capabilities. 551 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,160 Fascinating at the moment for me, Claude, obviously there's 552 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,440 some really interesting stuff happening with Claude. 553 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,160 There's a whole lot of tools that we make heavy use of. 554 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,400 And I think the game that's also going to change. 555 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,160 Today we use this one thing, tomorrow we use something. 556 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,800 I mean, copilot. We've got copilot. 557 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,440 And the way that copilot has changed in a year is phenomenal. 558 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,120 I mean, if I ask it a question now, it knows everything that I 559 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,920 know and every e-mail I've ever received and every document I've 560 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,400 ever worked on, it has context. So it provides pretty good 561 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,720 answers. Yeah. 562 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,280 I went from hardly using AI two years ago to today. 563 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,400 I use it all day and every day, all day long. 564 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,240 But it's important not to lose track of our actual skill. 565 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:16,840 Yes, yeah, because it still is giving us AI wherever you use it 566 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,920 is still not giving us great answers. 567 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,360 So we so it is going to be important that judgment is going 568 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,880 to be essential because if you do take an AI first approach and 569 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,880 you get some sort of an output, you are accountable for whatever 570 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,560 that thing for, however you use that output. 571 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,800 And so it still has to be accurate. 572 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,280 It has to be representative of the facts, the context. 573 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,120 So that's, that's going to be really important. 574 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,120 And I think you, you said something there. 575 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:51,920 And so to answer to, to sort of add on to Denise's question, a 576 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,240 lot of the tools that we are using in our organizations are 577 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,000 now they have AI built into them. 578 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,000 You use the JIRA example, I just got my latest Microsoft Office 579 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,120 update and Copilot now shows up at the top of my word and says, 580 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,440 what are you trying to do? Try those things. 581 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,840 If you are worried about where can I get some experience with 582 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,480 AI, open up any of the tools that you're using for your job. 583 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,720 They have AI in them. Start there. 584 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,280 Yeah, yeah, it use what you've got access to essentially and, 585 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,320 and, and play around with it. And I think it also ties in 586 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,760 quite nice to the to the next question around. 587 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,280 And do we, do we think that the tools in the current form are 588 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,480 actually generally going to help? 589 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,120 And, and I think it's, it's an interesting question because in 590 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,040 my opinion, this this is, it's how you use that tool. 591 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,600 So I would use the tool. If I've got a problem, I might 592 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,720 use it to brainstorm ideas. Say if you had this problem, 593 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,760 what would how would you solve it? 594 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,000 But again, it comes down to the context you give it. 595 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,200 If I don't give the right context, what country am I in? 596 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,160 What environments am I working in? 597 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,200 Are you in a highly regulated environment? 598 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:03,800 Are you not in a highly regulated environment? 599 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,200 There's so much information that's available that if you 600 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,200 don't give the correct context, you're going to get bad answers. 601 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,280 And, and that's why I said stuff like copilot is becoming much 602 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,520 better because it has context. It knows exactly who I am, what 603 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,880 I work on, who I speak to. It knows my team's messages, it 604 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,800 knows my emails that come in. So it has a pretty good idea of 605 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,160 context. And if I provided the correct 606 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,800 context and can guide it, I think it's possible that it can 607 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,600 give you nice answers and then it's judgement. 608 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,360 Then it's deciding you know what, what, what can I do with 609 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,000 this? Should I use this? 610 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,080 Shouldn't I use this? Is it valuable? 611 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,760 There's that term at the moment called what's AI slop? 612 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,720 And we see a lot of them. I mean, every second video is, 613 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,000 is, I mean, you know, that thing is AI and it's, it's, it's, 614 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,960 you're bombarded by it. And you know, the e-mail that 615 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,160 the person that cons, you know, really constructed the way that 616 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,880 they speak and they've sent you such a well worded e-mail. 617 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,200 You know, it's not them. You know, it's just AI that's 618 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,600 done it. And you know, they haven't 619 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,080 checked it. And I think we've got to guard 620 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,480 against a got to guard against that. 621 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,400 Humans are imperfect by nature. So you're getting something 622 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,560 absolutely perfect out. You wonder is the, is the, is 623 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,240 the authenticity behind it? And sometimes the way we solve 624 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,720 problems need that human, that human connection. 625 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,680 It's not robotic. You know, the, the, the, even 626 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,920 though I work in banking, the solutions that we deliver and we 627 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,520 need to deliver, they work. They're for people. 628 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,440 They're not for machines that the end users a person and so 629 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,080 you lose the humanity out of things. 630 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,640 If you're just using AI, it's the screen is the most efficient 631 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,600 the screen could be and it doesn't have the nice welcome 632 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,040 screen when you when you load in because it's not seen as 633 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,600 efficient. So I think it's it's what you do 634 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,680 with AI and and you're the judgement aspect. 635 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,280 The thinking part is, I think going to be the the next barrier 636 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,320 for us. Yeah, I think so. 637 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,720 AI, what I've realized in, in a lot of the AI stuff that I've 638 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,680 produced is how much AI strips out authenticity and makes a lot 639 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,800 of stuff sounds nice, but it is very generic. 640 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,920 And you're right, organizations are building products and 641 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:15,360 services for, for humans. And so you, it, you, you can 642 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,719 read something and know when it is not generated by a human. 643 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,920 And that can impact trust, reliability, when something 644 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,320 sounds so perfect that it can't be true. 645 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,800 I mean, I think we still have that, that capability as humans 646 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,840 that we know when something doesn't read as authentic. 647 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:42,280 So, so being able to create things and ensuring that they 648 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,639 represent real, real human experience because we do still 649 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,600 need to connect with people, we do still need to bring in hearts 650 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,440 and minds for the for the products and services that we're 651 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,320 building. Yeah. 652 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:58,920 And and it's the thinking part. I mean, any if, if, if I can go 653 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,200 to a meeting recorded and from that I can go all the way from a 654 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,360 recording to a requirement to automatically delivering it to 655 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,320 pushing to production. And I'm not needed in that. 656 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,640 It's going to be a very sad world, not only for, for, for 657 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,600 the people that are not no longer involved in the process, 658 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,840 but I don't think the outcome is going to be as good because just 659 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,880 because you're told to do something doesn't mean it's the 660 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,840 best thing to do. And we need to use judgement to, 661 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,240 to, to bring that in and, and be better and to help clarify 662 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,680 things and help shape the direction. 663 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:28,800 So I still think there's a very bright future for us. 664 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,120 Yeah, I, I do too. I know we are getting lots of 665 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:33,760 questions. Ryan, you're doing such a good 666 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,440 job of bringing in these questions. 667 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,800 I'm going to answer Vivian's question really quickly. 668 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,400 Hey Vivian, we live stream to YouTube as well. 669 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,360 So as soon as we're done today, you'll be able to, to, to get to 670 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,760 this recording. So thanks. 671 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,520 Thanks for your question. Do you see a we've, we've got 672 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,160 lots that we've got three more questions. 673 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,880 Do you see one that you want to take or should I just pop it up 674 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:56,360 and? We get do you? 675 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,760 Do you see the BA Mall that one? So I mean this 22 separate 676 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,760 points here and, and, and really want to address both of them. 677 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,720 So the funny one is the, the PO versus PM versus BA role. 678 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,840 I think in, in the, in the lifetime of business analysis, 679 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,560 there's been like these three big debates and it was, you 680 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,640 know, maybe 10 years ago, it was waterfall versus AI versus 681 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,240 agile. And then it, and then it was BA 682 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,480 versus PO. And now it's to AI or not to AI. 683 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,320 And, and I think do I see the BA role merging? 684 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,680 I see many roles merging. I see the, the, the, the, the 685 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,760 skill sets. I, I see less, less people doing 686 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,960 more things because you don't have to, you know, I see a 687 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,640 genetic AI being involved in things. 688 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,440 So I'm not going to have to do some things in future because 689 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:46,680 there's a lot of capabilities within AI. 690 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,720 So I do see a lot of roles emerging. 691 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,280 And then the technical question is, is an interesting 1. 692 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,000 So if you'd asked me many years ago, are we in a technical role 693 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,640 or are we in a in a business role, my answer would have 694 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,840 always been business because even a technical solution is a 695 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,840 business solution. It's there for business. 696 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,800 We don't build for computers, we build for people. 697 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:14,120 But now I do see that the, the analysis role, I see a slight, A 698 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,360 slight technical shift in it and we actually involved in the 699 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,560 building execution and not because we're going to code, but 700 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,520 because the capability is there to do things like vibe coding. 701 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,120 If I want to build a mock up UII don't I no longer need to ask 702 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,080 someone who's specialist to do it. 703 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,400 I can go do mock up UIS and get that specialist to check and, 704 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,640 and to bring in some of the character into it. 705 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,400 But I do see us having to understand a little more of the 706 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,840 technical side. So as I mentioned, you know, 707 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,560 having access to stuff like Claude where you you can give it 708 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,360 access to your code and ask it questions if you don't ask the 709 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,800 right questions. So like information security is 710 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,000 a big topic at the moment. And I can go implement a pattern 711 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,200 on, on a website where it says, OK, well, I'm going to store 712 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,040 your security credentials in the code. 713 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,480 And any information security person will tell you that's not 714 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,480 a great pattern. But if you don't understand 715 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,880 enough about that, you're just going to go, oh, do it, it 716 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,280 works. You know, the credentials are 717 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,040 stored in the code. It works when I use it. 718 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,280 The functionality is what I want it to be, but the security 719 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,880 patterns are not there. So I do believe it helps to to 720 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,640 start to think in a more technical way. 721 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,480 Although the the and. I think it's just because the 722 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,840 bridge between technical and non-technical is becoming less 723 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,120 because this is a gentic interpretation layer. 724 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,720 Yeah, it it, things are becoming really blurred so that those 725 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,280 skill sets we are building are really transferable and almost 726 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,200 like Lego blocks where we can kind of stick them together and 727 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,640 we can we can build a role for ourself that it really meets the 728 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,840 moment. So I think this next question is 729 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,400 an interesting one. This is from Safar. 730 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,800 How do you manage the rising expectations? 731 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,240 Right. Our organizations are like, 732 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:55,360 you've got AI. It makes you 10 times more 733 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,880 productive. Go do stuff here, he says. 734 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,840 Now everyone believes any analyst analysis can be done in 735 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,560 two to three days instead of months. 736 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,320 It doesn't really seem realistic. 737 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:07,560 Yeah. How do you answer? 738 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,120 That so true story. This is a very true story. 739 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,080 A month ago I had a lot more here. 740 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,800 It is gone that quickly because I don't know I don't know about 741 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,560 anyone else here, but I feel the pressure. 742 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,920 The pressure's there. You know, it's, you've got AI 743 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,600 and I'll do it quicker and we need to figure this out. 744 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,680 And if, if, if, if anyone on the call or listening in is saying, 745 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,280 oh, that doesn't worry me, then I then I'm a bit confused 746 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,160 because it worries me. It it gives me sleepless nights. 747 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,760 I'm not sure. How do we accelerate things? 748 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,000 I think we're in in, in a, in a very difficult transition zone. 749 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,280 But I also think that that's where people throw and that's 750 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,080 we, we, we people that are really good at what they do can 751 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,040 thrive. I always say, if we worked in an 752 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,880 environment where everything just worked, it was easy. 753 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,320 I went into work every day. I, I, you know, everything just 754 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,600 slid into place. What role would we have? 755 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,080 We are, we are there to simplify things. 756 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,640 We are there to, to do the thinking. 757 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,520 If it all just worked and then people are going to say, well, 758 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,440 we don't need you. So yes, we need to manage the 759 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,280 expectations and yes, they will always be the supply and the 760 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,680 demand are not going to match. People are always going to want 761 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,760 more than they. Than they get and the way that 762 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,760 I'm handling at the moment, I just ignore the things I can't 763 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,080 control. I focus. 764 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,280 If I've got 500 things to do and someone's expecting me to do 500 765 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,480 things, I focus on the 10th things first and then I move on 766 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,400 to the next 10 and move on to the next 10 and move on to the 767 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,560 next 10. I think there's an expectation 768 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,600 that we need to do a little bit more than our normal, you know, 769 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,840 9 to 5 and to pick up these skills and to come to sessions 770 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,640 like this or conferences like BBC or local IBA chapter events 771 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,080 where people are talking about this stuff and learning about 772 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,280 this stuff. So that I can figure out how do 773 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,720 I take the thing that is repetitive in my day and 774 00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:55,760 automate it in some way. We've done a lot of automation 775 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,360 on our side. Things that I always say, even 776 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,640 when I'm not working now, I'm still working because I've built 777 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,520 things, not just me, my people in my team and people that my 778 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,960 colleagues and peers have built. Things that, that are operating 779 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,320 while we we are not at work. Processes that are, that are 780 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,000 ongoing, things that are happening, agents that are 781 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,560 running in the background that are doing little bits and 782 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,840 pieces. Because something that if I can 783 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,160 save myself 10 minutes a day, do that 10 minutes a day. 784 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,560 And then the next day, if we go to another 10 minutes, all of a 785 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:25,840 sudden you have another hour free. 786 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,880 So it's, there's no good answer. There's there's really no good 787 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:31,560 answer. There isn't you. 788 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,280 You're always going to be expected to do more than you 789 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:34,040 can. Yeah. 790 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,280 I think pressure is becoming the normal part of our, of our work. 791 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,000 And, and I want to add on to something that you say, I very 792 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,200 often talk about, we are professional learners. 793 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,120 Like that's, that is part of the role that we offer in 794 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,880 organizations. We get thrown into situations 795 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,160 where somebody's like, I, I don't know, can you just make it 796 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,440 work? And I think when we apply that 797 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:00,120 lens to our own development, because learning is a muscle, 798 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,120 you are somebody that is good at learning or you aren't just like 799 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,120 if you went to the gym them and built a muscle, if you use it, 800 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,320 you'll build it up. If you don't, it atrophies. 801 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,800 And so I think that skill is make learning a thing that you 802 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:21,120 do just natively pull up a you know, I read Harvard Business 803 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,160 Review journal that that helps me. 804 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,720 Whatever those activities are that help to keep your learning 805 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:32,080 muscle working are going to be essential right now. 806 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,560 Yeah, I mean, they they don't call it continuous learning for 807 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,440 nothing. It's it's definitely and that 808 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,040 hasn't changed. It hasn't changed in the loss. 809 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,040 I think maybe it's become more relevant, but it hasn't changed. 810 00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,760 Yeah, I think now more than ever, ever we should be we 811 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,440 should be trying learning a new skill, trying something 812 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,600 different, you know, extend yourself. 813 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,040 If if you never thought I'm I'm not a developer, I'm never going 814 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,600 to look at code. Maybe you want to give it a try 815 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,600 and have a look at it. And even if it's just to 816 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,440 understand it better and understand how the roles to come 817 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:03,400 in at that. And you know, I see there's 818 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:08,400 another comment around BA roles requiring data and testing 100%. 819 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:13,080 I think one of the most exciting things is the ability to, to, 820 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,840 to, for AI to handle big amounts of data and to give you insights 821 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,160 out of the data. Back in the day, if I wanted to 822 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,520 get an insights out of data, it was it was not hard. 823 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,360 If you millions of rows of data you can't check in Excel. 824 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,440 Now I can have AII can ask AI question. 825 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,800 Please tell me out of the data these XY and Z. 826 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,400 Maybe it's going to give you the wrong answer and hallucinate, 827 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,760 but I've got the ability to synthesize data in a better way 828 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,080 and some things are just not possible. 829 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:48,200 I can't review 5000 documents in 24 hours, but AI can can gain 830 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,960 some insights out of those documents in that amount of 831 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,120 time. So I've got the ability to do 832 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,760 it. And in testing, yes, I think 833 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,400 there's, I mean, testing has never been in the I mean, if you 834 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,040 even when you did, when I did my CBAP, you couldn't say, well, 835 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,800 some of the my role is testing that you couldn't use that for 836 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:09,840 your hours for, for CBAP. And now it's it's because 837 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,240 because the role is sort of expanding. 838 00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:13,600 I think you, you're not you, maybe you're not the tester, but 839 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,200 you, you need to know what you're doing. 840 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:21,000 And Bob coding is essentially produced version A and continue 841 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,360 iterating on it until you've got a version that that works. 842 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,920 Yeah, yeah. That's I think that's a. 843 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,120 Good, a good one. This is another interesting 844 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,880 comment, yeah. Oh, this last one, maybe this 845 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,120 will be our last question because I think this is a good 846 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,760 one as well. So sounds good. 847 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,440 Do we need to keep in mind the compliance part of using AI? 848 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,440 Do we need frameworks on how to involve AI and how? 849 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,120 I bet that's working at a bank. I am sure that is something that 850 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:51,960 you guys are also thinking about. 851 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,240 Yeah. So I mean, the short answer is 852 00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:58,120 yes. The long answer is I don't know 853 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,920 how we get there, but I think there's this human judgement and 854 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,720 thing. And that's why I'm saying in 855 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:06,280 that example, I thought where I was mentioning about the 856 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,560 security, you know, storing the credentials in the code. 857 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,480 I know that that's not a good pattern. 858 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,280 And we need to get, we need to understand these things. 859 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,800 And one of the, one of the best skills of ABA is not necessarily 860 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,000 that they can solve the problem, but that they know who to call 861 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,160 to solve the problem. I'm not an information security 862 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,680 expert, but when something comes on my, to my desk and I'm like, 863 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,720 no, this doesn't look right. I know who to, to call. 864 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:33,840 And I think that often, often is, I mean, you would say that 865 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,440 you're not solving the problem, but I think you are. 866 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,520 You're solving the problem by knowing the right people to pull 867 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,280 together the right people to that the right decisions make is 868 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,640 to get the right data and to know not to just go forward to 869 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,480 something and to prevent risks because it's too easy these 870 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,640 days, right. You know, a year ago when you 871 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,120 wanted to develop something, the time it took to develop it meant 872 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,920 there was a lot of time to test. Many people were looking at it. 873 00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,640 There was, you know, months and months of rigorous testing of 874 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,760 demos and views. Now that's thinking go to 875 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,800 production in a day. All of a sudden we've got to 876 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,520 slow down and go well, hold on, hold on. 877 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,280 I know I know this needs an infosec and persons have a look 878 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,880 at it. I know that and there's poppy 879 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,840 concerns or privacy concerns on this. 880 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:19,280 So I think there's the roles, just it's scary at the same time 881 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,000 because a lot of trust, a lot of responsibility sitting on our 882 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,240 heads, but that produces it's an opportunity in my mind. 883 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,120 Yeah, it, it is. It gives us, I think the kind of 884 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,160 visibility that we have wanted in organizations for a long 885 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,640 time. Because I do think the ability 886 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,680 to connect people in organizations is also a really 887 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,320 important part of our role. Because you're right, I, you 888 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,040 know, I can sometimes know that I'm not the person to ask about 889 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,640 this, but that I know who is, is a really important role that I 890 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:55,120 can play on a project because I, I understand how processes work 891 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,960 and how we get things out the door safely. 892 00:46:58,440 --> 00:46:59,920 I think that's important. All right. 893 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,320 Well, boy, this has been a great, a great conversation. 894 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,160 Now you were talking about all of the talking that you've been 895 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,600 doing and I feel like if I don't ask you about the South Africa 896 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,520 summit before I before you leave today, I will not have done my 897 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,320 job. So you are instrumental in 898 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,040 planning that. And I was asking you before we 899 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,280 went Live Today how that's going. 900 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,080 And you said, well, there's a little bit of a change. 901 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,120 So what's So tell us a little bit about that summit and what's 902 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,480 recently changed. Yeah. 903 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,560 So, so I think, I mean, our summit is generally in November 904 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,160 and we had, we were aiming for the beginning of November, but 905 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,760 unfortunately we have a voting day that day and it's only just 906 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,280 been announced that it's going to be a public holiday. 907 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,480 So it's not a great day, another great day to run a conference 908 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,120 because we should all be out there voting. 909 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,880 So we'll be looking at new dates. 910 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,240 I do believe the IBA is a board is on this call and they they, 911 00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:58,760 they're looking at we working together to figure out dates, 912 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,080 but it'll be sometime in November. 913 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,720 It's always a highlight for us, first of all, to, you know, to 914 00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:06,360 get all people from around the world that come, come and visit 915 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,400 us here and we can show them what we're doing in South Africa 916 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,600 and learn, but also that we within South Africa learn from 917 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,040 each other. It's it's always a highlight of 918 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,880 the calendar for me. Yeah, I, I have always heard 919 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,880 great things about it. And you do you pull in a lot of 920 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,800 great speakers. All right. 921 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,720 Well, Ryan, it's been good to catch up. 922 00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:27,000 I think you've, you've got our our audience thinking today. 923 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,200 So thanks for all this great insight. 924 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:31,760 It's a pleasure, I really enjoyed it. 925 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,720 Yeah, yeah. Thanks for joining us today. 926 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,480 All right. Well, that is it. 927 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,800 I know we've got you thinking about about what's going on with 928 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,440 business analysis right now and maybe some things that you can 929 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,760 be thinking about to help you to bridge that gap. 930 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:54,280 We will be back in two weeks and you can find us right here. 931 00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:57,400 Thanks for listening. Do you have any questions, 932 00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,320 comments or thoughts about today's topic? 933 00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,160 We'd love to hear them. Drop us a review or leave a note 934 00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,680 in the comments. Then like, subscribe or share 935 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,440 this podcast if you like what you heard. 936 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,960 And hey, you can help us shape future episodes. 937 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,640 What do you want to know more about? 938 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,960 Send us an e-mail at Live at iiba.org with your ideas. 939 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:16,800 See you again on our next episode.