1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,840 If I could get a dollar, you know, for every time somebody 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,120 thought change management or change leadership, post 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,320 communications and training, Oh my gosh, I'll be retired by now. 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,320 Welcome to Business Analysis Live. 5 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,560 I'm your host, Susan Moore, community engagement manager 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,480 with the International Institute of Business Analysis. 7 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,720 I explore topics with industry guests about the work of 8 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,600 business analysis professionals and how their work helps 9 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,840 organizations achieve better outcomes. 10 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,800 And Yep, we take your questions too. 11 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,800 Thanks for listening. Let's get started. 12 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:40,000 We like to talk about business analysis, but we also like to 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:45,080 talk about some other kinds of capabilities that are around us 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,480 because as business analysis professionals, we aren't just a 15 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:51,080 1 trick pony. Like there's a lot of stuff that 16 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,240 ends up coming our way. One of the things that may end 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,240 up in your court sometimes might deal with change, not just the 18 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,600 change that you're making to a system, but big picture change. 19 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:09,040 And so I, I want to ask you to think about change in your role 20 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,080 in it. And maybe you think about your 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,560 role as change management, but have you heard of change 22 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,000 leadership? It's a little bit different and 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,000 today we have a guest from the Change Leadership, the chief 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,840 strategy person for that organization, who's going to 25 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,280 talk to us a little bit about what Change Leadership is. 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,320 So I want to introduce you all to the stage Yvonne Ruke aka 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,000 Vetta. Hello, Yvonne. 28 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:39,360 Hi. There. 29 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,000 Hello. Well, it's so nice to have you 30 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,600 join us today. We're talking about what is 31 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,240 change leadership, something that you know something about. 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,560 You're part of the organization. You guys also have a conference. 33 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,960 Before we get into that topic, why don't you introduce 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,800 yourself? Tell us a little bit about you. 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,760 Every time I'm asked introduce yourself, you're like, what do I 36 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,960 start with? Seems like a simple question but 37 00:02:08,039 --> 00:02:10,360 yet so hard. Simple question. 38 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,960 OK, well I'll start with this. You know, it seems full circle. 39 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,080 It's always full circle to be speaking to a business analysis 40 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,040 audience because that is exactly how I started my career. 41 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,640 I started my career as a business analysis over 20 years 42 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:28,920 ago, let's call it 25, really aging myself here, but let's 43 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:31,840 call it, you know, over 25 years ago, I started my career as a 44 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:37,200 business analyst and I moved into being a project manager, 45 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,080 moved into change management, moved into management 46 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:46,280 consultancy. So for the last 25 years I have 47 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,120 been in the field of leading, driving and managing change. 48 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,520 So whether as a business analyst, whether as a project 49 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,800 manager, whether as a change manager, and now I find myself 50 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,800 where my focus is really about how do I help organizations and 51 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,280 professionals to lead and drive change? 52 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:09,720 How do I and power professionals as a whole to say, you know what 53 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,920 leading change is no longer for a select few. 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,200 Leading change is no longer about rule or title. 55 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,240 Leading change is the core skill that we find ourselves needing 56 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,120 to have. And I like the word you used 57 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,800 earlier, capability. It's about building that 58 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,400 capability for us to be able to drive in today's new world of 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,840 work. When we look at the top ten 60 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:39,440 skills that are required for the new world of work 20-30 it comes 61 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,880 down to leadership. It comes down to influence, and 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,840 that's where change leadership comes in. 63 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,720 But one of the things that I like to call myself, and I've 64 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,960 given myself that title is change Leadership advocate. 65 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,920 And I'm a big believer in change leadership advocacy. 66 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:00,920 My belief is that when all boats rise, we all rise together. 67 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,360 A rising tide lifts all boats. All you have to do is look into 68 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,640 communities and look into where change hasn't been done right in 69 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,200 an organization and that organization has failed and you 70 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,480 see the impact not only on employees mental well-being, but 71 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,680 the community at large. So when change is done right, 72 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,640 it's not only about benefiting that organization, it's about 73 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:28,560 the community as a whole. So that's the big driver that we 74 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,440 have behind the change leadership and why we do what it 75 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,120 is that we do because we believe strongly that the rising tide 76 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,480 light lifts all boats. And when we do change rights, we 77 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,360 all benefit as a community and a society as a whole. 78 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,720 So that's the big driver for me. Yeah, I like thinking about 79 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,920 change. Leadership is almost is kind of 80 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,840 an approach to Wellness for the community, right? 81 00:04:52,840 --> 00:04:57,120 We are including everyone. We are making sure that that 82 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,880 people's needs are met because so much of what we do as change 83 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,160 very often kind of rocks us to the core, right? 84 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,720 I mean, we're not talking about life changing stuff, but when 85 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,440 you're at work and you are used to a way that you perform 86 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:19,480 processes or use tools, I mean change to that can be really 87 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,800 jarring if it is not done with care for the people. 88 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,280 Yeah. Yes, it is. 89 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:33,800 It is, you know, one of the mistakes that we easily make as 90 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,000 change leaders and anybody leading and driving change, 91 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,520 because whether you're a business analyst, whether you're 92 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,400 a project manager, whether you're a change manager, once 93 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,960 you're in that project, we usually have a lot of 94 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,880 information upfront. We have, that's almost, when you 95 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,360 say hindsight, you know, we get this change and we like, we, we 96 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,200 take the time to take it in, understand why this change is 97 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,320 happening, but we never often give other people that 98 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,960 opportunity to take it in and come slowly on board. 99 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:10,720 So we've had maybe a few months, maybe even a year to think, 100 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,640 well, this change is coming. We're going to implement it and 101 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,720 then we implement it and we almost think that people should 102 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,080 adapt. Oh, it's so simple. 103 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,960 You know, it took us like 6 months, three months, you know, 104 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,960 you know, to get our heads around that we need to do this 105 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,480 change, why we need to do this change and it's our role to 106 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,880 drive it. But we never have often the 107 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,040 times that empathy for other people. 108 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:36,480 And then we also always try to look at change from our 109 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,680 perspective or this should be fantastic. 110 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,560 This should be easy peasy. People should love it and they 111 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,480 should want it. So hey, let's just go and do it. 112 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,240 And then when people push back, you suddenly think why they're 113 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,480 pushing back because we're constantly looking at change 114 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,840 from our perspective. And that's where the role of 115 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,400 empathy comes in. When we talk about cognitive 116 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,040 empathy when it comes to leading change, very, very key. 117 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:03,400 You know, it helps us connect better with our audience and our 118 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,640 stakeholders. It's interesting you say that. 119 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,360 That change can feel very jarring. 120 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,960 I recently learned that when electricity was first 121 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,560 introduced, people pushed back. They didn't want electricity. 122 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:16,880 Can you imagine us not having that? 123 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,200 Right. Yeah. 124 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,280 But people push back. People did not want it, 125 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,400 organizations didn't want to adopt it. 126 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,440 So it may be very good and we can see how. 127 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,240 We can see how you know it's going to be good for everybody, 128 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,040 but no, not everybody sees it that way. 129 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,880 You know, okay, so this is just a fun fact. 130 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,360 I love really old movies. I love silent movies in 131 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,760 particular. And when they finally developed 132 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:53,320 the sound technology and started producing movies with talking, 133 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,040 the entire industry was like, oh, that's just a fad that won't 134 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,400 we're not going to invest any money in that again. 135 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,040 So in the same way that you're saying like there was a time 136 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,520 when people pushed back on on electricity, they pushed back on 137 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,800 movies with talking in it that you could hear yes. 138 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:16,040 So so I think both of those examples underscores right. 139 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,640 The change can be really positive. 140 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,200 It can have, it can really revolutionize things, but in the 141 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:29,880 moment it can feel huge and and not something that people want 142 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,720 to do. No, not at all. 143 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,559 Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, I think 144 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,280 you've described a little bit about change leadership. 145 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,240 I know that when I was coming up, even doing some project 146 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,080 management work, we would always talk about change management. 147 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,520 How do you see change management as as different or the same as 148 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,240 change leadership? Does it have qualities of do 149 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:58,080 they share qualities? Oh yes, they do impact change 150 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,360 management and change leadership are often used interchangeably, 151 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,240 and that's where there's a lot of confusion and that's where 152 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,760 you can really get it wrong when you don't understand the 153 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,600 difference between the two roles. 154 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,720 So first of all, every change manager, change management 155 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:20,040 person must have change leadership skills, but not every 156 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,080 professional needs to have change management skills. 157 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,080 So you can be a change leader without having change management 158 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,440 skills. Those are two different things. 159 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,600 So I want you to think about change leadership as a compass 160 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,920 and think about change management as a map. 161 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,360 So change management is often very role based, very 162 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,960 structured, it's very tactical. It's about providing processes 163 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,560 and time like this. Often within a project that has 164 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,360 a start and an end. We change management. 165 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,320 You're bringing all tools and frameworks and methodologies 166 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,680 into play. You're thinking about, oh, how 167 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:57,400 do I do my stakeholder impact assessment? 168 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,640 I'm doing my change management plan, I'm doing my execution. 169 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,440 Very, very tactical. You have a project you need to 170 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,160 implement, you need to drive adoption and see it through any 171 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,720 as a defined end date. Change leadership is more like a 172 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,840 compass. It's ongoing, it's directional. 173 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,440 You need to use that as part of you being a change manager and 174 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,240 in your daily skills as a business analyst, as a business 175 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,480 analysis professional, as a project manager, regardless of 176 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,120 what your role is, you often will, especially, you often will 177 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,720 need that change leadership skills, especially in today's 178 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,360 new world of work. So it's often associated more 179 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,560 with inspiring others to act and navigating uncertainty. 180 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,760 It can be project bound and it can also be out of the project, 181 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,360 you know, like in your day-to-day role. 182 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,880 Because right now, regardless of our role, regardless of our 183 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,640 title, regardless of what we're doing, we're constantly needing 184 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,840 to lead and drive change. There is nothing we do that is 185 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,760 not driving change these days when we think about it. 186 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:04,440 So as a change leader, you're constantly having to, whether 187 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,040 lead people, direct people, or direct the work that you do, 188 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,040 implement a certain type of change, drive a certain type of 189 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,200 change, and it's often very skills based. 190 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,280 This is where you're thinking about things like your empathy 191 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,840 skills, you're thinking about adaptive leadership, you're 192 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,080 thinking about agility, you're thinking about emotional 193 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,680 intelligence. All of those skills come into 194 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:27,800 play, very skills based and change management. 195 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,240 Yes, skills base was very tactical in terms of getting us 196 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,840 to that end of project and the adoption of that change that's 197 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,760 happening. OK. 198 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,440 That's I like, I like the way that you differentiate them 199 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,440 because there are overlaps, right? 200 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,400 The common denominator is we are helping people through change 201 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,200 one, we might take a more structured route, which make 202 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,120 sure that we get, you know, we do all of the things to bring 203 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,760 people along with us and that we cover our bases. 204 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,240 But leadership, I like that you called it a compass, right. 205 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,120 So it is a thing where we continue to kind of assess where 206 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,840 are we and and we just shift a little bit as we, you know, as 207 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:17,360 we are whatever encountering resistance or feeling like we, 208 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,960 you know, aren't aren't getting where we are. 209 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:25,200 So you talk about leadership as being more skills based and I'm, 210 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,800 I'm wondering for business analysis professionals that are 211 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:35,480 listening to us who are thinking am IA change leader, could I be 212 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,840 a change leader? You've identified some of the 213 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:39,840 skills. Are there other kinds of 214 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,960 qualities that make a good change leader? 215 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,200 So first of all, you know, to your first question, every 216 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:54,760 business analyst, every business analysis professional needs to 217 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,720 be an is a change leader. I think back to myself as a 218 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,560 business analyst, right? It was all about driving change. 219 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,720 We were constantly driving change. 220 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,160 We were constantly being asked to come into a project where 221 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,640 something didn't exist, a technology didn't exist, a 222 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,920 process didn't exist and introduce that change. 223 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,320 Whether it's capturing those requirements, you know, engaging 224 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,520 with stakeholders and the thing around change leadership or 225 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,840 change management, when you think about it is very people 226 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,440 focused. And often the times in that 227 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:36,520 business analysis role, it is often about being very people 228 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,480 focused, being engaging with people, engaging with your 229 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,120 stakeholders. So as a business analyst 230 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,040 professional, you need to be thinking, how am I engaging with 231 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,840 my stakeholders to bring them around, right, Right. 232 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,120 Yeah. You know, because you're, I 233 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,400 don't know about how it works these days, but you know, you 234 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,880 have to get them in the room. You have to negotiate the 235 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,120 requirements with them. You have to, you know, influence 236 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,480 them. And leadership is influenced. 237 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:08,240 That's right. You know so. 238 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,120 It's like, how are you influencing people? 239 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:11,760 How are you bringing them on board? 240 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,880 How are you helping them understand the changes that you 241 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,800 want to bring into place? So first and foremost, as a 242 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,840 business analyst, you're a change leader, you're leading 243 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,720 change, you're driving change, and having change leadership 244 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,440 skills is important. When we teach our Change 245 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,320 Leadership Accelerator course, we usually focus on 10 core 246 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,560 skills that every change leader needs to have. 247 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:40,360 They could be 20, but we focus on 10 core skills change leaders 248 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,720 need to have. And if I had to just even just 249 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,120 talk about a few of them right now, it will be. 250 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,480 Let's start with adaptive leadership, OK? 251 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,840 So that is being able to adapt your style when it comes to your 252 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:59,880 stakeholders and not be or you know, one-size-fits-all. 253 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,000 This is how I'm going to do it. It's about understanding your 254 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,400 different stakeholders and adapting your style in terms of 255 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,560 how you engage with your stakeholders to lead them to 256 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,680 where is they need to go. And usually we even talk about 257 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,280 when I talk, when we talk about adaptive leadership, we talk 258 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,360 about the head hat and hand model where it's really 259 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:23,240 understanding your stakeholders and seeing how best relates to 260 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,520 your stakeholders. Another one we spoke about and 261 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,400 I'll go in a little bit is empathy. 262 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,760 You need to have empathy. And when I say empathy, I don't, 263 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,000 let's not talk about compassionate empathy. 264 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,560 Let's talk about cognitive empathy because often the times 265 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,000 you'll say, oh, you have to feel what other people are feeling. 266 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:47,640 No, it's about understanding. I remember this SVP one saying 267 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:51,800 to me at all that if somebody is not naturally empathetic, can 268 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,280 they be a change leader? Can they be a change manager? 269 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,160 I said the best people are the people who are not naturally 270 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,800 empathetic. Interesting. 271 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,200 OK. Because when you apply cognitive 272 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,120 empathy, you're being intentional about it. 273 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,640 It's not like say or understand what this person is feeling. 274 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,240 So I understand what they're feeling because I'm a mum as 275 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,200 well. I understand what they're 276 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,560 feeling because I'm a grandparent. 277 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,800 I understand what they're feeling because I live in that 278 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,080 same area as well because we we have the same cultural 279 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,360 background. So that tends to be very biased 280 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,080 because you can relate to that person. 281 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,720 But when you apply cognitive empathy, you're like, I am 282 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:38,520 choosing to understand how this person may be feeling and 283 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,680 experiencing the situation. Two different things. 284 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,240 Yeah, and compassionate empathy on the job will always need to 285 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,360 burn out. You know, I was going to say 286 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:54,680 there is a cost to be paid for that compassionate empathy 287 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,800 because we can suddenly get wrapped up in all of the other 288 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:04,000 things that go into that person's feelings and that can 289 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:09,079 really be a drain for us. So I, I, I don't know that I've 290 00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:12,440 thought about there being two kinds of empathy, but I, I like, 291 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,040 I, I like that description. Yeah, yeah. 292 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,960 I mean, communication is very everybody has communication. 293 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,040 But let's be clear, communication is not sending out 294 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,040 the e-mail. Correct. 295 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,560 Let's be clear, communications, who is not change leadership, 296 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,640 neither is it change management because the amount of times if I 297 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,320 get a dollar, you know, for every time somebody thought 298 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,000 change management or change leadership post communications 299 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,520 and training, Oh my gosh, I'll be retired by now. 300 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,280 But it is not, you know, so I'm communication. 301 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:53,040 You always have to remember it's a two way St. and it's really 302 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,560 about listening as well because many of times we want to push 303 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,520 our agenda forward. So it's about also listening as 304 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,920 well. But the secrets to successful 305 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:09,120 communication is the ability for you to take responsibility for 306 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,600 that communication as the change leader. 307 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,680 So when I say take responsibility for because often 308 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,920 the time, oh, I sent out this communication, they should know. 309 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,000 Oh, I did this. Oh, we had a town hall. 310 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,160 They should know, has the change leader who wants to be 311 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,280 successful. You need to take on that 312 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,080 responsibility to say, am I communicating that message in a 313 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,040 way that it is being understood and received as intended? 314 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,960 Yes, and so. That is where you have to think 315 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,480 about when you're communicating, how early you need to be 316 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,160 communicating, how you need to be communicating, thinking 317 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,520 about, you know, multiple channels, 7 to 10 channels of 318 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,480 communicating even the same message. 319 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,800 And you just need to not be fearful about communication 320 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,320 because oftentimes in projects you will see us work with 321 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,000 leaders that say, oh, let's not tell them about this now so that 322 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,000 we don't get pushed back. And guess what? 323 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:02,360 At the end, they still get pushed back. 324 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,360 That's right. And by the way, that's a red 325 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:08,240 flag when you hear leaders saying, oh, well, they don't 326 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,000 need to know this, OK, well, we're serving somebody's agenda. 327 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,080 If we are not right, here's the difference between confidential 328 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,960 information and we're not going to tell them two different. 329 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,040 Things, yeah, two different things, but at most times you 330 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,840 find it is fear of people pushing back. 331 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,400 So you think that by leaving it too much later, you know, you'll 332 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,800 be able to say, OK, now we need to do it. 333 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,160 And you know, people get on board because people don't want 334 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,120 that push back or what if they don't like it or they make a 335 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:43,280 game, that assumption that it's easy peasy, lemony, squeezy, 336 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,920 people should come on board with wanting to use it and we're not 337 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,880 going to get any push back. And then all of a sudden you 338 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,440 implement it and you get all this push back and then 339 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,360 surprise, surprise, you didn't see change is emotional. 340 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,280 You don't know how people are going to respond to the change. 341 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,400 And it's very important that you take people along with you on 342 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,520 that journey with empathy, understanding how they may be 343 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,480 responding. Another one is emotional 344 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:17,640 intelligence. There's a lot of talk about 345 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,240 that, about more intelligence and you know you, I'm sure that 346 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:27,920 you've heard we use that term a lot and I feel like people don't 347 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,640 really understand. So what does that look like in a 348 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,960 change leadership perspective? Let me. 349 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,880 Let me tell you this experience I had, you know, as change the 350 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,120 emotional intelligence in the project environment. 351 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,440 I'm brought into this project change manager. 352 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,360 Hey, come help us implement this. 353 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,560 We're having issues and you ought to bring you in a little 354 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,560 bit in the middle of it, you know, right when they think, OK, 355 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,560 now we have an issue. So we're going to now bring you 356 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,680 on board to help us with this. And I get on board with it. 357 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,880 They say the first thing that says, oh, this person is not 358 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,040 sending attendees, they're not sending representatives to the 359 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,600 team meetings. They're not sending their SMEs 360 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,840 to the team meetings for us to be able to capture requirements 361 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,600 or to understand their requirements. 362 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,560 They're not turning up at meetings, they're pushing back. 363 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,400 They don't want this project and all of that. 364 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,040 So I said, oh. OK, You know, you know you're 365 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,120 excited to do your work and your job. 366 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,280 They don't tell you that they're throwing you into the lion's 367 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,200 den. I go into this meeting and this 368 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,000 stakeholder immediately starts screaming at me. 369 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,920 You should have been here ages ago. 370 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:36,320 I don't know what you're doing here. 371 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:40,160 All kinds of things. That is when you have to now 372 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,680 think about practicing emotional intelligence and not responding 373 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,680 to that situation. Remember, somebody is screaming 374 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,560 at you in a meeting in what is supposed to be a professional 375 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,720 environment. So emotional intelligence looks 376 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:56,400 like controlling your own emotions to not respond to that 377 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,040 situation. It looks like applying empathy 378 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,800 to that situation to say, you know what, this person is 379 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,040 probably frustrated. They're probably upset about the 380 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,440 situation. So you control how you even 381 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,960 receive the information. One of the things I do very well 382 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,600 at not all the time, but I'll say 8 times out of 10, because 383 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:24,800 we're humans, is that I do not take the situation personally. 384 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,720 I don't, I don't intend to internalize that situation to 385 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,360 think it's about me. I just say, you know, a 386 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:33,720 situation is happening for this person right now. 387 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,760 At the moment. My role here is to be supportive 388 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,160 in that situation. So it's really about how 389 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,520 regulating our emotions in terms of how we respond to what's 390 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,920 going on. And it's more important now than 391 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,280 ever because there's so much uncertainty going on right now. 392 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,640 Yes. And there's a lot of big 393 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,120 emotions, yes. So we don't certainty comes a 394 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,640 lot of emotions. So remember you come and if 395 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,360 you're implementing anything right now, everybody is scared 396 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,080 when they see a project to change, especially if you're 397 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,440 implementing a project that is supposed to bring in 398 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,400 efficiencies. And then you're now coming to 399 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,600 talk to the stakeholder who thinks they might be losing 400 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,600 their job, right? And they're going to be like 401 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,240 thinking you want me to help you get rid of me, you know, type of 402 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,280 thing. So you don't know those emotions 403 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,080 that you're dealing with. So you the ability to regulate 404 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,960 your own emotions and also be able to receive those emotions, 405 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,080 you know, as you go along and to read the room and read the 406 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:39,120 situation is very important. So you're emotionally 407 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,160 understanding what is going on in the room as well. 408 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,840 Read it right. You know, that person who may be 409 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,760 nodding along is not really nothing along. 410 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,760 That, I think is the best way of describing emotional 411 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:57,240 intelligence I've probably ever heard, by the way, because I we, 412 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,000 I hear people use the term and I don't think they mean what you 413 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,880 just said. Yeah, like let's simplify it. 414 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,640 And that's one of the things that we're very big on at the 415 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,880 change leadership is practical change leadership. 416 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,040 We know about making complicated things. 417 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,800 We know about theories and models and methodologies and you 418 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,160 know you to go pull this methodology out. 419 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,680 No, let's be practical. And so when we're training our 420 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,120 clients, when we're training our students, because we have online 421 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:32,520 courses and we at organizations bring us in to do corporate 422 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,120 change leadership training, be like, it's practical. 423 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,040 If yeah, because they're all they've they've they've seen the 424 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,400 models and they met. At times we see people, they 425 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,960 say, oh, I got trained on XYZ and I still don't know what to 426 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,880 do. I'm like, OK, XYZ was great, 427 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,080 good, great. I'm not taking that away from 428 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,640 you, but what are the practical skills that you need to lead and 429 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,320 drive change? And so when we talk about 430 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,120 emotional intelligence or empathy or adaptive leadership, 431 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,720 which we've mentioned is how do you make it really practical? 432 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,720 Another one that is key, key for any business analysis 433 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,640 collaboration. Oh. 434 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,120 Yeah. You are working with your 435 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,800 stakeholders as partners. You are collaborating with them. 436 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,160 When you look at them as partners, when you do 437 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:26,640 collaboration with them, they want you to succeed because they 438 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,640 see such they own the success with you. 439 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,880 Right. You know, don't treat them like, 440 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,280 oh, I just want something, just give me my requirements, I'm 441 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,280 done. Or just contest this thing and 442 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,800 I'm done. Or just give me that decision, 443 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,200 I'm done. How are you collaborating with 444 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,920 them? Because that even leads into 445 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,440 another skill which you talk about empowering others. 446 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,840 The amount of times I've got people to do things for me, 447 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,800 which we call influence is because they've taken ownership 448 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,600 for it. So whether you're empowering 449 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,240 people, it's about empowering them to want to seek success in 450 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,720 this as well. How can we make this successful? 451 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,800 How can we lead and drive this? And they now become partners and 452 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,320 need to want to see it succeed as opposed to speaking it's 453 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:18,720 yours or it's your project, it's your requirement, it's your 454 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,680 this. No, it's ours. 455 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,240 When, when we show up as business analysis professionals 456 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,640 with with our hands out saying I just need for you to give me, 457 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:36,640 give me right we, we close the door to collaboration, to a 458 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,480 sense of shared understanding. Shared you know, commitment to 459 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,640 this project. We also, I think, close the door 460 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,960 to trust because collaboration is one of the ways that we begin 461 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,640 to build trust. And when you can do that 462 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,880 effectively, when you can build that trust and say I'm in this 463 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,520 with you. I'm not just here to get your 464 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,120 requirements, but I'm actually in this because I want you to be 465 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:05,600 successful. Then influence doesn't feel so 466 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,280 much like manipulation, which I think sometimes is what is what 467 00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:15,080 is kind of the shoehorn that we use when change management goes 468 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,680 bad is if I can't influence them, well, I guess I'm going to 469 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,720 have to do something that looks more like manipulation because I 470 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,120 didn't do all of these other things correctly. 471 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,800 I like. That you bring that up. 472 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:32,560 The best thing you can get from folks in court is resistance, 473 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:37,080 but usually at times you want to influence them to take this 474 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,640 change on. No matter what we're 475 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,520 implementing this, we have to do this. 476 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,960 When you see resistance, love it and see it as feedback. 477 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,520 Yes, because. Often times you want to get to 478 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,880 the root of why it is they're pushing back on it because it 479 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,400 might just be going in the wrong direction that you shouldn't 480 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,640 have gone. I've been on a project whereby 481 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,080 they had already designed and implemented what they wanted. 482 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,360 We're sure we're going to do this. 483 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:09,600 They haven't engaged with the different stakeholder groups to 484 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,840 say this is what we're doing, this is how we're doing. 485 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,760 So I come on board as a change manager and let me backtrack. 486 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,200 This is a funny story, right? So I have this friend, we're now 487 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,880 good friends, but we met at work. 488 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,520 She was a business analysis. I was the change manager. 489 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,680 We get on. On this project and she, she 490 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,480 turned to me one time, she said, she said she literally turned to 491 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,520 somebody because she didn't know me then, right? 492 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,480 She said, who is this person here? 493 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,160 Why are they asking all the questions I would usually ask as 494 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,240 a business? So we go into the meeting and 495 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,480 she's usually used to being the queen bee at the meeting, asking 496 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,240 all the questions we need to do this. 497 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,800 And then here comes in, you know, Yvonne, and is asking 498 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,480 stakeholders all these questions. 499 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,080 So like, who is this? We're best friends now, right? 500 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,120 All right. Well, you know. 501 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,920 But the for me as a change leader, as a change manager and 502 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,280 for any business analyst is that you're asking a lot of questions 503 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,400 up front to understand the impact of the change to your 504 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,280 stakeholders. Because now you on this, that's 505 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,760 where you get their buying so that you don't get to places or 506 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,760 they're pushing back. They don't want this, they're 507 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,200 saying it doesn't work, but you haven't engaged them at the 508 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,200 beginning to understand why. So for this very project that I 509 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,640 was going to talk about, you know, everything had been 510 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,080 designed. They've grabbed the requirements 511 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,920 from in quote, internal stakeholders of the technology 512 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,520 team who wanted to build this lovely apple like hassle within 513 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,320 the, you know, let me call it OK, Apple like app and they 514 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,760 wanted to do it and hadn't really engaged with the 515 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,600 stakeholders. So I come in and I say, OK, 516 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,800 we're about to roll this out. First thing I do as a change 517 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,280 manager is I go to engage with my stakeholders and you do that 518 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,520 as a change leader as well. You want to understand your 519 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,760 stakeholders. And I start to say, oh, this is 520 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,960 something we're thinking about doing, you know, would like to 521 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,400 roll it out. How would you implement it? 522 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,880 And we got some areas saying you want to roll that out. 523 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,800 It's not going to work in that area because it's against 524 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,040 regulations. Oh, OK, so this. 525 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,440 Wasn't just even push back, it was really a push. 526 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,640 You could frame it as resistance, but that was them 527 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:28,160 pushing back because regulations say XYZ and if you implement 528 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,520 this situation or solution, it goes against what it is that 529 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,760 we're doing. So that's the value of 530 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,840 understanding your stakeholders, engaging with your stakeholders 531 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,840 as a whole, collaborating with the people who are going to use 532 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,520 that solution to build out that solution as opposed to build it 533 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:52,400 and they will come. So resistance is a gift and I, 534 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,000 and I think you know what what you've described there is 535 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,560 listening to the resistance and then helping to classify it a 536 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,720 little bit. So, you know, I know many in our 537 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,440 audience today will know the resistance. 538 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,880 That sounds like we can't do this. 539 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,760 We've been doing it this way for 25 years, right? 540 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,760 That's a different form of resistance. 541 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,240 Also, it's a gift. It doesn't feel like it, but 542 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,920 instead of just saying, well, you need to get over it and do 543 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,280 it, I think it's important to dig in. 544 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,880 So in just the same way, and I think that's a form of emotional 545 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,520 intelligence, right? I know that that people feel a 546 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,680 certain way about having done this thing for so long and that 547 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,760 it is scary to think about a future where they might not do 548 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,120 it. So rather than say get over it, 549 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,400 I might say, well, tell me about that. 550 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,880 Tell me about what it is that you're doing today. 551 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,680 It doesn't cost you anything. It does, and it can build a 552 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,120 little bit of trust, yes. It does because remember the 553 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,080 stakeholder? I told you that I went into the 554 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,800 room and they were screaming at me. 555 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,280 We ended up being like this. Right. 556 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,240 Every meeting they would go into, they would be like, 557 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,440 where's Yvonne? Because we. 558 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,520 Had built that trust and rapport because I first of all, I didn't 559 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,480 go start screaming back. I just listened patiently to 560 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,120 what it is that they had to say. Why they were saying that, OK, 561 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,840 this is what you mean, you know, take that as feedback, right? 562 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,440 And help address those issues. So now they saw me as a 563 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,080 collaborator. They saw me as a on their team. 564 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,800 I had gained their trust and building trust starts with 565 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,720 little wings. You don't build trust in a day. 566 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,560 So I'm very big on short winged, short term wings, low hanging 567 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,600 fruit. Build and gradually build their 568 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:51,480 trust. And guess what? 569 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,280 You now stop being invited to the table. 570 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,480 You know, there's this saying that since say, if you're not 571 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,480 invited to the table, go build your own table. 572 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,400 No, no, no, no, no. Then you are leading and driving 573 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,320 a project within an organization. 574 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,080 You want to be at the table within that organization. 575 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,200 You want them to invite you. That's how you drive with 576 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,520 influence, right? If you're not in the room when 577 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,960 they're talking about certain situations that impact that 578 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,920 project, it leaves you in a vacuum and there's a gap. 579 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,200 But once you build that relationship, you build that 580 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,720 collaboration, you build that trust and you empower other 581 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,320 people. So the value of being a change 582 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,480 lead, and I touched on this as a skill whereby you empower 583 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,560 others, is that you are not going to be in the room all the 584 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,120 time. But when you empower other 585 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,520 people to act on your behalf and you're collaborating together 586 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,320 and they trust you, they will come back to you with 587 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,960 information or they will invite you into the room, or they will 588 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,600 say, hey, Susan, you need to be in this meeting. 589 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,800 Well, they would say, hey, Paul, we need to invite Susan into 590 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,720 this meeting. We need Diana in here. 591 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,400 You know, we need Manshuk in here. 592 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,520 You know, we need all of these people in the room with us. 593 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,960 Yeah, that's the value. That, yeah, that's, and I, I, 594 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,120 you know, I sometimes on this podcast, we, we talk about, you 595 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,960 know, when you are really good at this kind of work, you know, 596 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,840 your value when people ask for you to be there. 597 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,040 And here's the good news and the bad news. 598 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,040 The bad news, you know, the good news is the problems get harder. 599 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,239 And the bad news is the problems get harder. 600 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:36,199 So as you, as you build that kind of trust and, and are known 601 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:40,360 for being someone who can do change leadership really well, 602 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,239 the problems get harder. And if you love that kind of 603 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,159 thing, then you're in your element. 604 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,159 But you know what? Let's let's talk about this 605 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,400 because change leadership may not be for everybody. 606 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,520 So two things. One, I'll go back to the things 607 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,000 when you do change leadership, it gets easier. 608 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,480 Yeah, I'll tell. You because like I said, if you 609 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,600 are empowering others to act, you're no longer carrying the 610 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,000 weight all by yourself. You know what? 611 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,840 So one of the things I see off the off the top is that you 612 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,880 aren't as a change leader, you are not the hero in the story. 613 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,120 So many times as a change leader, you want to go with that 614 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:28,480 Superman T-shirt, you know, and help Superwoman or Super Bassy 615 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,000 that T-shirt and say I'm here to solve all the world's problems. 616 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,440 No, your role as a change leader is the ability to empower other 617 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,800 people to act as well. So now leading that change 618 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,880 becomes a shared responsibility. It's not. 619 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,240 It's a shared responsibility because now people are acting on 620 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:51,880 your behalf. Other people. 621 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,600 Remember we talked about collaboration. 622 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,400 People take ownership of the result. 623 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,760 They want to see it become a success. 624 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,520 So now it it makes your life easier. 625 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:02,800 Yeah. So that's one. 626 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,560 And then change. Leadership is not an option in 627 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,880 today's new world of work. Also true, it is no longer. 628 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,080 An option and change. Leadership is not a role, it is 629 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,720 a skill. Yeah, it's a. 630 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:20,200 Capability, so nobody goes and I mean even though it says change 631 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,880 leader as a role we put it in, but change leadership is a skill 632 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,200 and capability within your existing role. 633 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,400 It's no longer reserved for a select few, is no longer 634 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,480 reserved for any title, is no longer reserved for the people 635 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,160 at the top in your everyday. As a business analysis 636 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,600 professional, as a project manager, as a change manager, as 637 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,360 a HR person, as a senior manager, as a director, you're 638 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,360 constantly being asked to lead change. 639 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,160 And any business analyst that thinks they're not a change 640 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,640 leader or should be a change leader or have a change 641 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,480 leadership skill, I'm here to tell you, you need to go rethink 642 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,800 that. I was going to use another word, 643 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:06,680 as you say, just take a step back and rethink that because 644 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,800 you are leading and driving change as a business analyst. 645 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,640 So you need to have change leadership skills to be able to 646 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,280 influence and drive the change in the right direction. 647 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,360 I'm not saying you need to have change management skills, right? 648 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,600 I'm saying you. Need to have change leadership 649 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:26,400 skills. Two different things, and. 650 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,800 It is very often that one that you will not be asked to perform 651 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,000 that role or to perform that. I. 652 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,400 Call it a role, but you're saying it's not a role. 653 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,960 And I appreciate that, but you may not be asked to do that. 654 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,440 You may not be a change. Manager, right? 655 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:50,200 But as far as being using change leadership, hands down, you 656 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,880 should do that and don't give it another thought because to me 657 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,880 that is the difference between so so business analysis and 658 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,080 really good business analysis. It's it's. 659 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,720 The difference between being invited into the room, it's the 660 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,040 difference between somebody saying we want Susan in the room 661 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,240 because she's driving this forward. 662 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:12,040 She's helping make it happen. You know, it's not about saying 663 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,400 or I'm just here to be do my, you know, it's not, it's not 664 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,320 about being a task based responsibility. 665 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,480 I'm here. I'm just here to grab the 666 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,520 requirement. I'm just here to implement the 667 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,880 solution. I'm just here to this. 668 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,920 It's it's been more in a solution driven mindset to be 669 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,840 able to say, I'm coming to support you. 670 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,360 That's what leadership is about to say. 671 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:36,040 I want to take us forward into implementing and they're driving 672 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,160 this change and seeing it become successful. 673 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,200 That's who people want in the room, right? 674 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,960 They want to be able to say Susan is a leader. 675 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,080 If I'm absent from this, Susan has got this. 676 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,800 They want to be able to say, if I send Susan to go interact with 677 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,160 that SVP who is a stakeholder, I don't have to be in the room 678 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:02,600 with Susan because Susan has leadership skills and influence 679 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,480 and she's going to be able to interact with that SVP or senior 680 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,480 leader. I don't have to be in the room. 681 00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:10,320 I can send. And you're not waiting 682 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,720 constantly, you know, because people see you as this or she 683 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:14,960 just wants to grab her requirement. 684 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:16,280 He just wants to grab his requirement. 685 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,280 They just want to do the job. They see you as saying you're 686 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,280 leading and driving this change. You have the vision, you're 687 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,840 inspiring others to act. You're that, you're that 688 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,880 compass. You're driving the sheep. 689 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,360 You're staring the sheep forward. 690 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,800 You're staring the chain. As opposed to, oh, I'm just that 691 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,400 person on the side waiting for to do my own tasks, to do my own 692 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,600 role, to be told what it is that I need to do. 693 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,840 That's the difference between who they want in the room and 694 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,840 they want to trust to drive that change. 695 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,160 Yeah. Complete differentiator. 696 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,920 Well, I tell you what, how about we take a couple of questions 697 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,240 this has been and listen, we we have been getting some really 698 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,080 nice comments by folks that are listening in. 699 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,440 So Mathura says very insightful. There's another one, Mari says. 700 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,200 Again, insightful and practical. Good, good, good. 701 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,200 We're happy to hear that you guys are. 702 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,280 Are getting some some value and maybe seeing yourself, seeing 703 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,800 what you think change leadership is all right. 704 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,880 Yeah, I see. I see a few questions, yeah. 705 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:24,880 Let's see, here's one Leaders either over or under, 706 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:26,720 communicate What's the right balance? 707 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,640 Yes, that is a good balance in terms of how do you, that's 708 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,120 where understanding your stakeholders is very important. 709 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,560 So that's where stakeholder assessments or knowing who 710 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,760 you're dealing with or, and that's why. 711 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,800 So let me give you a very simple model that you can use anywhere. 712 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,160 We, we have this in our change leadership accelerator course. 713 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,200 It's called the head, hands and hats model. 714 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,320 So first of all, it's understanding yourself as a 715 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,280 person. You know, sometimes you're very 716 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,920 analytical, so you think about a lot of information. 717 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:01,560 You know, I, I need to provide this. 718 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:02,880 They need to know all this detail. 719 00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:04,960 But somebody may be a hats person. 720 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,080 They're all thinking about why is this going to impact 721 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,560 somebody? What does this mean for people? 722 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,480 They're very, and then some of the person might be a very heads 723 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,840 driven person. When I say heads, they're very 724 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,960 like very logical 1 + 1 is equal to 2. 725 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,680 This is what we need to do. They're thinking about the 726 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,320 vision, let's implement this so they're different. 727 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,400 So first of all, understanding your stakeholders. 728 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,600 If you're talking to your accountants or you're talking to 729 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,640 people in the finance team, they need a certain level of 730 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,040 information to understand. Very analytical. 731 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,200 What does this mean? How is it, you know, what does 732 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,520 it mean for the bottom line, right? 733 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,760 You go and talk to the HR people and they want to figure out how 734 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,040 is this going to be impact people? 735 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,680 You go and talk to the senior leadership and they're like, OK, 736 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:46,960 what does this mean for return on investment? 737 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,320 You know, so that's it. So first of all, understanding 738 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,840 your stakeholders, then listening to the kind of 739 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,840 questions it is that they're asking. 740 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,760 It's very important. One of the things that you do, 741 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,960 it's even like your stakeholder, your, your journey map, where 742 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,960 are they in each of the phases and what do they what, what kind 743 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,040 of questions are they asking at the right time? 744 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,000 So you're not going to tell them at the beginning. 745 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,480 You're thinking about they're, they're trying to figure this 746 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,360 out to understand what it means for them. 747 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:23,120 All of that good thing, you know this, how does it impact my job? 748 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,880 So understanding your stakeholder journey, you know, 749 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,000 or doing a stakeholder journey map, you know, it's often a good 750 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000 way, a very good tactical way to understand where are they in 751 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,640 that journey and what's the right information to share with 752 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,200 them at a certain time. At the beginning, they just have 753 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,720 so many questions. What does this mean for me? 754 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:43,880 How does it mean, you know, you're implementing some 755 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,120 regulation? They don't want to read the 756 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,280 regulations yet They're just like, what does this mean for 757 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,080 me? They don't need the detail of, 758 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:55,000 you know, the XYZ of when you need to file that you documents 759 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:56,080 or not. That's not what they need to 760 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,720 know off from what they need to know off front is what is in it 761 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:05,440 for me. So classic communication WIIITM, 762 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,440 what is in it for me? Yes. 763 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,160 And it, and if I'm using your definition of emotional 764 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,360 intelligence here, communication is likely. 765 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,280 I am targeting different kinds of communication based on the 766 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:22,880 audience, based on where they are. 767 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,440 If I've done a journey map, which is I, I think a great 768 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,280 technique that you can use. So if you like your techniques, 769 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,160 you can still use techniques here. 770 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,640 And so it could be that some audiences need more 771 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,080 communication, some need less, some need details, some don't. 772 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,160 So there is a balance and it is heavily dependent upon who 773 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,840 you're talking to, Yes. And leveraging different 774 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,200 channels because we see it every day. 775 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,080 How many times our inbox is bombarded to you just think 776 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,120 we've sent an e-mail so they should see it, right? 777 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,000 Just even think. About So I'm planning this 778 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,400 party. Let's just bring it basic. 779 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,920 I'm planning this party and in the party I've sent out the IV 780 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,520 notification card, I've sent text messages, I've set the 781 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,280 dates, the timing, I've created a website. 782 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:08,680 You can go and get this information. 783 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,040 It has all the information card, everything. 784 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:15,080 Then somebody still access me. Oh, So what time is this event? 785 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,240 And there are three different places I've shared that 786 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:20,440 information. And I'm like, so I just send 787 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,880 them the link. I send them the invite. 788 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,920 There are people each, but you are. 789 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,920 So you see, in that situation, you are assuming people are 790 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,720 reading all of what it is that you're sending. 791 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,920 You're assuming people are reading all of those details. 792 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,320 So I remember a friend, you know, where she said, oh, you 793 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,400 sent all of this out. You don't need to say it again. 794 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,520 I said to the person, you know what? 795 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:46,880 I just really want to be very sure. 796 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,000 And then she comes back to me and says, I can't believe that 797 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,560 person asked that question. Haven't they seen this? 798 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:51,440 Haven't they seen this? Haven't. 799 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,440 They seen that, that is. What communication is at work as 800 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:57,760 well as well? Yes, you're. 801 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,120 Assuming that you've sent this out, you've sent that out, you, 802 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,800 you know, you've put that information there, so people 803 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:05,480 should see it. No, that's where you're 804 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,320 understanding your stakeholders. You're leveraging different 805 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,480 channels of communication, you're engaging with them and 806 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,440 you're listening. And once you hear that one 807 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,840 person ask that question, don't see it as one off to say, oh, 808 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,680 this person is that oddball. They just listen. 809 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,600 Everybody else says listen, no, take it as feedback again and 810 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,640 say if this person is asking for this information, chances that 811 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,440 there's another person too who is still asking for that 812 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,600 information. So this is an opportunity for us 813 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,160 to communicate this out, yes. It's a gift. 814 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,600 It really is a gift. It is a gift. 815 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,520 It's. Absolutely a gift because. 816 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,600 Sometimes it won't feel that way, but you just, you got to 817 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,440 check yourself. It's not about you. 818 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,720 It's not. Going to feel that way. 819 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,200 All right. So we've got, I think we've just 820 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,200 got this one last question. Let's see. 821 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,800 So this question if resistance during change is often a signal 822 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,440 rather than an obstacle, how do we train ourselves to listen 823 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,360 deeply enough to understand what sits beneath the resistance 824 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,640 instead of just listening to formulate a response? 825 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,920 Yes. And I think you know Qin Weim 826 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,720 way. Sorry, I didn't get that right. 827 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,640 I feel I should get that right, but I didn't get that 828 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,360 pronunciation right. You've answered the question 829 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,720 already, right? Because it's listening. 830 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,840 So it's, you say it's in your question already. 831 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,000 It's not listening to respond, it's listening to receive, 832 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,280 right? That's the difference. 833 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:47,680 And it's also been open minded that your way might not be the 834 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,880 right way. So that's another skill we talk 835 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:57,880 about open mindedness. Are you open minded to receive, 836 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,440 to say that you know what, what you're actually trying to 837 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:07,640 implement may be wrong, but we usually go in when we get 838 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,000 resistance. So we get feedback to saying 839 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,280 they're wrong, they don't understand it, they're pushing 840 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,480 back. I am the right, I'm with the 841 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,560 right answer. So it's taking a step back to 842 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,920 say I might be in the wrong. So not saying you might be in 843 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,880 the wrong, but just be open minded to receive once you're 844 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,800 able to receive and then you're processing it because once you 845 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,520 go in to say, oh, how do I formulate a comeback on this 846 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,320 one? You're not hearing it, You're 847 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,120 not really listening anymore. You're just like, come in here, 848 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,360 go out that year. So remember that project I told 849 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,480 you about how they were building this apple like app tower? 850 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:49,440 The projects had to they put a stop to it because when we 851 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,200 started to get all this feedback that were $1,000,000 fines. 852 00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,440 Oh, OK, so this was this. Regulation. 853 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,960 It could have been $1,000,000 fines taking away licenses, 854 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:02,000 yeah. Yeah. 855 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,800 The project had to come to a stop, yes. 856 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:12,240 So I remember the leader saying to me, well, I'm so sorry we 857 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:14,840 didn't get to implement this. I said no, I did my job. 858 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,680 Right. I did my job. 859 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,560 My job was listening to stakeholders, getting that 860 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,360 feedback, processing that feedback, and then we make a 861 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,160 decision on that feedback and not just capturing it. 862 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,560 Yes, there's actually capture that information. 863 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,040 I mean, I've done this as a business analyst. 864 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,160 Like let's gather the requirements just so that we've 865 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,120 seen that we're listening. We're going to put this in phase 866 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:38,200 three. That never happened. 867 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,320 Right. Right but here. 868 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:46,720 You, you, you heard the feedback and then we're, we're aware 869 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:51,080 enough to say, oh, this actually, this could be actually 870 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,720 put us in legal jeopardy. Like there is, there is an 871 00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:58,320 implication to this that is beyond just, we don't want to do 872 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,520 it. There are boundaries that 873 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:04,000 organizations play within. And one of those is we need to 874 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,200 be able to do our our work within the law. 875 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:10,360 Yeah. And you know, one of the things 876 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,080 that I used as a as a strategy, and I'll share that as a tip and 877 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,800 I don't know if he matters to anybody, was when I used to 878 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,040 gather requirements as a business analyst, I would 879 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,360 capture everything that we're saying. 880 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,320 I would document what is we're doing and I would still document 881 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,640 what we weren't going to do. So even if we put that in the 882 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,640 appendices or we put that in a risk issues and log register. 883 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,200 But there was something that it captured it so that when we went 884 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,960 back to the client to review those requirements, they could 885 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,680 still see what they had shared with us as a requirement. 886 00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:51,360 And it showed we're list, you're listening to us. 887 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,080 Yes, so. It's easy for you to say, oh, 888 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,280 that's not part of the scope. We're so good on saying this is 889 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,800 not part of the scope and it's out of scope. 890 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,360 We don't document it. Just having that out of scope 891 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,480 document or section in your document that says we listen to 892 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,800 you, we capture this information. 893 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:15,040 Here is you have that is a short. 894 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:18,520 Term. Easy win, a quick win. 895 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,480 That's a very quick win. No hanging fruit, Yes. 896 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,000 Because you heard them right and you are documenting. 897 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,520 We heard what you said. And also that is a very good way 898 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,680 because inevitably somebody will come back and say, well, I told 899 00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:35,680 them they should do this and they didn't listen to me. 900 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,000 But if you've captured we it, we saw it, we heard you say it. 901 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,280 And then whatever the decision was, the rationale behind why it 902 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,000 wasn't possible, you've you've saved yourself, but you have 903 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,760 also done that quick win, which is to let people know that we 904 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,440 heard you and we sought an answer for you. 905 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,960 So yeah, that's, that's really important. 906 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,880 So that that deep listening, I think also requires some 907 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,120 self-awareness. I've got to know, oh, I'm 908 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,160 defaulting to that behavior where I'm just trying to come up 909 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,000 with an answer. I'm not listening. 910 00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,360 So that's, that's I think another really important part of 911 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:20,880 that of that question that Chim Chim Wimwe maybe well, he says. 912 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,160 Thanks for answering his question. 913 00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,800 Yeah. There's a question before that 914 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,200 one, right? There's Yeah, here's. 915 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:29,280 Yeah. Here's one more. 916 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:33,120 This is from Manchu. What, what, what would a change 917 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,120 manager do if there's not a business analyst on the project? 918 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:40,080 So we're using that term change manager here, yes. 919 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,440 We're using that very different roles. 920 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,200 Yep. It's not for the change manager 921 00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:49,520 to make a decision on this one. It's really for the project to 922 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,840 make a decision on what needs to be done. 923 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,920 So there might not be a bit. Why would first of all, why 924 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:56,680 isn't there a business analyst on the project? 925 00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,400 I find it it's interesting before there's even a change 926 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,560 manager on the project, it's usually a business analyst. 927 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:03,600 It usually is. That's right. 928 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:09,120 It's nobody is right I've. Had a situation where we lost 929 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:13,000 our project manager and I was asked to come in as the change. 930 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,240 I was giving management responsibility as well as change 931 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:20,520 management responsibility. So for me, I believe it's a 932 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,800 skill set. So for, for instance, me, 933 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,120 because I have a business analysis background, because I 934 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,120 have a project management background. 935 00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,800 Let's call the spade a spade. I'm a blessing on a project. 936 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,640 You know what? That's true, yeah. 937 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,680 You know. Like I'm, I'm a great resource 938 00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,040 to have because I can just wear many hats, right. 939 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,800 But if there's no if, if you have a change manager who 940 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,720 doesn't have a business analyst analysis background, you can't 941 00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:55,480 expect the change manager to do the work of that because they're 942 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,440 two different roles. Yes, the project manager role is 943 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,600 different from the change management role is different 944 00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,440 from the business and analyst role. 945 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,880 And you need to understand the differences. 946 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,960 And that's where also there's often issues in projects because 947 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,600 there's so much overlap. And I've had it where the 948 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,000 project manager is thinking, why is this change manager doing 949 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,360 that? That's my responsibility. 950 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,480 The business analyst is saying, why is the change manager doing 951 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,200 that responsibility that you know? 952 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:26,000 So there isn't that clearly defined role. 953 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,160 So it's usually very important that once you get into your 954 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,960 project environment, you're doing that roles and 955 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,080 responsibility documents. Understand who is playing in 956 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,800 this sandbox and what's your own responsibility if not. 957 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,800 So it can end up causing issues I've had where a project manager 958 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:48,920 not understanding what a change manager does has said to me why 959 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:50,200 you're engaging with stakeholders. 960 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,040 You shouldn't be talking to any stakeholders. 961 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,560 How can you as a change manager not talk to stakeholders? 962 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,520 Your responsibility is to help talk to stakeholders to help 963 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,840 drive this change. But that was a lack of 964 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,080 understanding of what the change manager does. 965 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,720 So I know we're talking about change leadership, but as a 966 00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,560 change manager, when I go into a project, I usually help people 967 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:14,040 understand my role and my responsibility and what I'm 968 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,240 coming to do there. I'm going to work with you as a 969 00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:18,120 business analyst. I'm going to work with you as a 970 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,080 project manager and my 2 best friends on projects. 971 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,120 You know, project now, project rules really are the business 972 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,560 analysis business analysts as well as the project manager, 973 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,400 because the business analyst has captured all of this great 974 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,440 information in talking to the stakeholder that sometimes I 975 00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,640 don't need to even revisit some of those things. 976 00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,480 And I can leverage that information and understand it 977 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,040 before I even go and start talking to the stakeholders 978 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:44,200 because I need to understand the solutions. 979 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,000 I need to understand the changes that are coming in because 980 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,480 they're capturing the changes, right? 981 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,960 So once I understand the changes, I capture all of those 982 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:52,960 changes. I go to my stakeholders to 983 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:54,840 understand this change is happening. 984 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,720 How does that impact you that change is happening? 985 00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:59,000 How does that impact you? Two different roles. 986 00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:03,800 They can both play in the same box if people have that skill 987 00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,840 set for different roles, yeah. And I think, you know, talking 988 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,800 about applying change leadership, we can also apply 989 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:15,880 that change leadership lens to getting ourselves organized as a 990 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,560 team to perform this change or whatever this issue is. 991 00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:21,480 I mean, that's really kind of what I hear you say. 992 00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:25,080 And the other thing that I like because we do often get a little 993 00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,400 territorial about our rule or about our responsibilities. 994 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,960 But if, if we have done a really good job with change leadership 995 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,760 about how we want to work together, we can leverage the 996 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,320 work that's already been done because that's probably what 997 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,320 people are are responding to is wait a minute, you don't talk to 998 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,040 stakeholders, I talk to stakeholders. 999 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,200 Well, no, we, we both do that and we may already have some 1000 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,000 work that we've done. Let's share it, let's leverage 1001 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,040 it. I don't have to redo it. 1002 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,000 Yes, we can share it and work together. 1003 00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,160 Exactly. And so first of all, project 1004 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,640 terminology everybody's familiar with or should be familiar with 1005 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,960 if you're in project based environment is racy. 1006 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,080 So race is always a good document. 1007 00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:12,880 When I also do my change management strategy or plan, 1008 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,280 depending on the type of project, not for all project, 1009 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,840 because again, not all one-size-fits-all is that I do a 1010 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:25,440 stakeholder relationship management section in it, right? 1011 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,480 Who owns the relationship with the stakeholder? 1012 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,640 Because remember, sometimes your stakeholders don't want multiple 1013 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,160 touch points. So they don't want Yvonne coming 1014 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,960 to ask him the same question Susan just asked me and the same 1015 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,320 question Marie just asked me. No. 1016 00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,720 So it's good to sometimes have stakeholder owners. 1017 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,440 OK. So, you know, before I go and 1018 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:48,840 touch base with this person, I'm interacting with this person to 1019 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:50,640 say, you know, I want to connect with this person. 1020 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,960 This is what's happening. And you have that torch point 1021 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,480 with them. But roles and responsibility is 1022 00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,240 very key. And it's one of the issues that 1023 00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,400 it it can be a very big issue on a project where it goes array 1024 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,680 because let's call a spade a spade. 1025 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,000 People are trying to, people are human, they're trying to build 1026 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,680 their castles, they're trying to build visibility, they're trying 1027 00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:15,200 to build importance. And when you're thinking about 1028 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,600 all of those things in the project environment where they 1029 00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:21,040 want to be seen as in I'm this person, I'm the one doing this. 1030 00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:25,440 So I'm and then it can seem as if somebody comes to do their 1031 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,280 role and they are, you hear you're overstepping the 1032 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,680 boundaries, right? Or you're stepping on someone's, 1033 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,720 you know, foot here. So roles and responsibilities 1034 00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:39,800 very critical to be shared, yes. So an important part of also 1035 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,960 change leadership, helping people to understand what it is 1036 00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:44,880 you should be doing. All right. 1037 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:49,960 Well, my goodness, we have had a, a, a lengthy conversation. 1038 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,080 We went a little bit longer than we usually do, but boy, we've 1039 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,440 had some people that have just really appreciated this 1040 00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,640 conversation today. So that is fantastic. 1041 00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:01,320 I knew we'd have a good conversation. 1042 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:06,520 We always, you and I, we get really, I know about this. 1043 00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,000 The time rises and we geek out all the time, yes? 1044 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,400 And before we got started today, we already picked our topic for 1045 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,160 the next time we're going to get together. 1046 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,760 So they're they're really gonna. Yeah. 1047 00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,760 So if you liked this duo today, wait till the next topic that's 1048 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,160 going to come soon. Yeah. 1049 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,160 Listen, Yvonne, this has been so great. 1050 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,720 I mean, as usual, like I got a page full of I'm a note taker. 1051 00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,960 Yeah, I'm a note taker. So I have got real this. 1052 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:36,720 We've got some good stuff to think about here And and I'm 1053 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,200 really happy that you were able to join us today. 1054 00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,000 So thanks. My pleasure. 1055 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:42,920 My pleasure. Thanks for having me. 1056 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,720 Yeah. All right, well, we are wrapping 1057 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:47,840 up today. Woo. 1058 00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:51,320 That was a lot about change leadership. 1059 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,840 So if you have been thinking am IA change leader, the answer is 1060 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,800 yes. And how can you be doing more in 1061 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,360 that area as a business analysis professional? 1062 00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,120 I think Yvonne has left you with a lot of thoughts. 1063 00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:08,480 Now when I see you again in two weeks, we're going to be talking 1064 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,240 about AI governance, but we're not going to talk about like the 1065 00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,440 data and the machine learning. We're going to go a little 1066 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:19,600 deeper into the psychology of AI. 1067 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,720 Yes, that's the thing. So you won't want to miss it 1068 00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,600 because this is going to be another fantastic conversation. 1069 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:28,400 I want to thank you guys for joining us today. 1070 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,040 If you're hearing this, you made it to the end of the episode. 1071 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,400 Thanks for listening. Do you have any questions, 1072 00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,320 comments or thoughts about today's topic? 1073 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,200 We'd love to hear them. Drop us a review or leave a note 1074 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,680 in the comments. Then like, subscribe or share 1075 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,480 this podcast if you like what you heard. 1076 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,000 And hey, you can help us shape future episodes. 1077 00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:47,640 What do you want to know more about? 1078 00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:51,960 Send us an e-mail at Live at iiba.org with your ideas. 1079 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:53,840 See you again on our next episode.