1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,320 Welcome to Business Analysis Live. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,560 I'm your host, Susan Moore, community engagement manager 3 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,480 with the International Institute of Business Analysis. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680 I explore topics with industry guests about the work of 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,600 business analysis professionals and how their work helps 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,840 organizations achieve better outcomes. 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,760 And Yep, we take your questions too. 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,760 Thanks for listening. Let's get started. 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,760 If you have listened to this broadcast anytime really, you 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,200 know that we often talk a lot about human skills. 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,040 Maybe you call them soft skills, I call them essential skills and 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,520 how they are essential to the work that we do as business 13 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,000 analysis professionals. And so you might also think that 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,160 that means, well, if I do something more technical like 15 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,000 being a data engineer or being a tester or being a developer, 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,760 well, those human skills, they don't matter so much. 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,840 Well, you'd be wrong. And so today I've got an 18 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,400 interesting speaker who is somebody who's not just a 19 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,800 developer, but he's a Microsoft MVP, who says, actually, those 20 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,560 human skills give you a competitive advantage if you are 21 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,400 a more technical person. So I want to welcome to the 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:25,000 stage today Matei Toth. How are you, Matei? 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,400 I'm good, I'm good. Thank you very much for having 24 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,480 me. Well, it's lovely to see you 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,520 again. You and I had the great pleasure 26 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:40,320 to meet at BA and Beyond earlier this year in Luxembourg, and you 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,120 had a really interesting story and actually your talk there was 28 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,560 really interesting as well. So first, why don't you tell the 29 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,960 audience a little bit about yourself? 30 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,240 Hi everyone, I'm Matt Today. I work as a power platform 31 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,080 consultant and trainer, and I also spend a lot of time 32 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,760 building communities. I lead the Hungary Power 33 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:07,280 Platform user group. Yeah, it's a giveaway. 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,120 I based in Budapest, Hungary, and I'm one of the organisers of 35 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,480 the Shift Enter summit, which will happen next week in 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,040 Budapest. So yeah, it's it's it's it's 37 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,120 close and it's exciting. But yeah, my background is a bit 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,360 usual unusual. I'm not by trade and IT guy, so 39 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,280 I started off as a cruise ship photographer. 40 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,480 I worked in a photo agency and then of course I moved into 41 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,880 finance before finding my way into low code, no code and 42 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:40,040 Microsoft technologies. So and I feel like everything 43 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,840 connects together with human skills, with transferable 44 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,560 skills, everyday skills, essential skills, however you 45 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,400 have it. And I like it as a solving 46 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:53,240 problems, teaching, making things easier to understand with 47 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,680 through Smart Tools and cooperation. 48 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,480 So I think that's that's all about me. 49 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,040 That well, there's tons more about you, you're just you're 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,520 just fascinating and thanks for the reminder that you have got 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,800 your conference that's coming up next week. 52 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,200 I think it's your second annual that you've done. 53 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,520 Tell us a little bit about that conference and its focus. 54 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,960 The focus is Microsoft Technologies. 55 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,640 So it's a tech conference, but you will have some soft skills 56 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,680 going on, of course. And yeah, this is the second 57 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,200 year we do and but the first time with this name. 58 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,680 So we wanted to create our own brand and it's a community 59 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,080 conference from the community to the community, non profit. 60 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,880 So it's it's not a high, high, high price tag conference. 61 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,000 And I hope it will be fun. I mean, that's the goal to be 62 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,960 fun for everyone. Not yeah, not a normal 63 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,400 conference where everyone is just wearing a suit and walking 64 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,360 around, but wear whatever you want. 65 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,360 And it will be full day 26 sessions. 66 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,920 We will have a debate as well and networking mixer with drinks 67 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,240 and a lot of giveaways for other conferences as well. 68 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,520 So I think you can win, win conference tickets to like 4-4 69 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,680 or five conferences. So yeah, we'll be, we'll be 70 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:16,760 good. Oh my gosh. 71 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,200 I, I know it is going to be a good time. 72 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,040 And I remember when you and I spoke that I think I'm 73 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,440 remembering this correctly, that you actually had spoke, had 74 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,600 spoken at a Microsoft conference. 75 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,760 And I think it, one of your early talks, you, you blended 76 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,160 that human skill, tech skill. And then you thought it went 77 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,920 pretty well. And it was a little, it was 78 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,840 unusual because there, there weren't a lot of those talks. 79 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,920 And then the following year, I think you said you were 80 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,520 disappointed that that Microsoft had focused just more on the 81 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,680 technical skills. I think maybe part of the 82 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,960 inspiration for this conference that you've created is because 83 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,160 you believe it is important to blend those two things. 84 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,920 True text. Yeah, yeah, 100 percent, 100% 85 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,200 because it's whenever you are on online, you can see those 86 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,920 tutorials on YouTube, you can read the articles. 87 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,440 You don't need people at the same spot to listen to the to 88 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:21,280 the technical skill session. But I do believe those are 89 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:26,600 important to share new features to talk about, share the 90 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,920 learnings about the new tech. But also if we are in the same 91 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,240 room, why don't we try something else as well? 92 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,920 So yeah, that's what I'm trying to do to not disrupt, but to get 93 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,480 into tech tech conferences with my soft skills sessions. 94 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,240 So I talk about transferable skills, I talk about mentoring, 95 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,520 about a new one, will be networking next year, 96 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,040 storytelling, and you have these these kind of things that makes 97 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,720 us human and makes us connect. And yeah, that's what I try to 98 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,560 bring in because, yeah, what do we have without the connection 99 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:09,840 with the fellow human beings? There must be a story, there 100 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:14,480 must be something that that you experienced in your career that 101 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,520 made you see that actually these human skills are really 102 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,160 important for tech work. Is is there like an inspiration 103 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:31,680 behind why you're on this path? There like there was one story 104 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,440 which was more about transferable skills than than 105 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,680 human skills. So we were building what I was 106 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,200 building my very first application seven years ago in 107 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,320 Power, Power Apps. And I just, I wasn't good in 108 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,360 design. So it, it worked, it had 109 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,640 something, but it just didn't look good. 110 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,440 So I was looking around in the company to find anyone would 111 00:06:56,440 --> 00:07:00,000 help me because it was really, really new to the, to the 112 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,720 company we were working for. And yeah, I was just found 113 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,440 someone who was also in finance but wanted to become a graphic 114 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,600 designer, was really good with PowerPoint and other other 115 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,040 tools. And yeah, I asked if like, hey, 116 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,120 do you want to chip in? And she made the design look 117 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,640 much, much, much better. So that's when I first realized 118 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:28,520 that, OK, we have more than what we have in our job titles, in 119 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,480 our position, in our job descriptions. 120 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,000 We have much more than that. And of course, like I told my 121 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:40,760 background before, so I have many, many other carriers in my 122 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,440 in my life. So I usually say that I am a 123 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,560 like a serial carrier Switcher in that sense. 124 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,840 But yeah, so that's, I think that was the story when when I 125 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,840 first realized that, yeah, there's something more than than 126 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,800 just OK, that's, that's your job title. 127 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,280 And that's why I usually have trouble to put like here in the 128 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:03,920 headline. I was like, OK, what should I 129 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,600 put? OK, that's, that's what pays my 130 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,080 bills, right. But I do much more like user 131 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,960 group leader and public speaker volunteer and so on and so 132 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:14,560 forth. And like, who are you? 133 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,160 That's also like an interesting question, mainly like how to, 134 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,840 because we usually say that, yeah, I'm, I'm this, I'm that I 135 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:24,920 work. And sometimes you associate 136 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,680 yourself with, with your position. 137 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,760 So yeah, that's, that's interesting. 138 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:31,760 Anything. I can't. 139 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,559 I can't help but notice as somebody who also has an arts 140 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,640 background. And I think that was the other 141 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,240 thing that that when you and I talked that I really, I really 142 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,880 enjoyed, right, That you did have this arts background as a 143 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,080 photographer, as someone interested in graphic arts, that 144 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,880 you had that interest and you were in a way applying that 145 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,760 artistic sense to the work that you were doing in that story 146 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,480 that you just told. You weren't just happy with 147 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,040 delivering a thing. I could deliver you a box and 148 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,680 the box would work, but actually you were interested in going a 149 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:13,280 little bit beyond that. You not only wanted them to be 150 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:18,600 able to use the box, but maybe you wanted them to like, love 151 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,920 working with it. I don't know. 152 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:29,360 How do you see your artistic side into this work? 153 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,960 Yeah, so I think the background in photography gives me like an 154 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,040 eye for aesthetics, right. So it's like I can see when 155 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,000 something doesn't look good, but I sometimes I cannot really 156 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,680 change it or most of the times I cannot really change to do 157 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:48,520 something about it. That's why I wasn't. 158 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,400 I am a photographer because I cannot paint or cannot draw. 159 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,520 So because, yeah, they usually say photography is just like you 160 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,680 clicking the button. It's much more than that, I'm 161 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:00,400 telling you, but. It is much more than that. 162 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,440 Yeah, it's for me it's it's easier because it's you have the 163 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,920 technology part of it that helps you in a way, but you also need 164 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,400 to have the eye for it. You need to have the passion for 165 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,240 it. Otherwise like you can have the 166 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,240 best cameras and takes take the worst pictures. 167 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:20,040 So yeah, I think it's the artistic side of it. 168 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,760 I think it's from for me, the photography brings me more the 169 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,080 communication part of it or the human element. 170 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,200 Understand what the client wants or understand how they would 171 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,520 like to see themselves and and also like adaptability, 172 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,960 flexibility, because if you are a wedding photographer, for 173 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,480 example, things will change every wedding. 174 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,480 They have the schedule and then Nope, it will do something 175 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,320 differently or you will have clouds, you will have sunny day, 176 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,640 you will have a rainy day and then yeah, you just need to go 177 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,000 out and and make the best out of what you have. 178 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,160 So I think those are the things it's for me, it's not the 179 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,600 artistic bit. I was never like an artistic 180 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,600 photographer, more like a journalist style photographer. 181 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,160 But I also had some some photo shoots where it was really going 182 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,920 into the artistic bit. But yeah, I've never been like a 183 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,880 photo artist. I never call myself that but. 184 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,120 Like an art guy, Yeah. Yeah, I. 185 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,040 Yeah, I, I get that as somebody that, you know, went to school 186 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,920 to be a filmmaker. I, I and I, I'm an art historian 187 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:37,160 like I always like the, the production of it. 188 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,200 And, and there's, there is a technical side to that, but 189 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,800 there's also a little bit of an art because I do think you have 190 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,960 to know what looks good, what is, what is, you know, what's 191 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,680 possible with the technology. So I can see very clearly how 192 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,560 your work as a photographer easily and in the skills that 193 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,480 you developed as a photographer transcended over into this work. 194 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:08,520 So what was the reception like as you have been this Microsoft 195 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,920 MVPA functional consultant, basically how how have your 196 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,640 clients responded to your wanting to communicate, wanting 197 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,640 to talk with them more about like what it is they really 198 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,360 want? I think they are usually fine 199 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,360 with that because I'm not coming through like, OK, this is how we 200 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,240 do it and this is the technology. 201 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,000 I don't want to sell you the technology only, right? 202 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,560 So I'm not coming here like, OK, this is the best tool you can 203 00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:40,200 use. And, and I'm always really 204 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,160 honest with my with my clients and with my customers. 205 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,520 And yeah, yeah, someone sold, sold us this. 206 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,240 And then from the first sentence, I understand that it 207 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,520 will not be the right tool for you. 208 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,840 And I will tell you that it's not the right tool for you. 209 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,640 So I think it's just I'm trying to find always the common ground 210 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,840 or the common understanding and make sure that I, I explain 211 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,360 things in a way that they will understand or they will 212 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:12,640 appreciate or they will see, you know, see it better at the at 213 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,600 the end of the day. And yeah, just really, really 214 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,040 understand it much, much better. So I think that's how I found 215 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:24,360 the human element of it in tech as well, That because at the end 216 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:29,440 of the day, it's human beings are using the technology and 217 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,880 they will be the end users. They will be the administrators, 218 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,480 they will be the consultants, they will be the you name it. 219 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,960 And if they don't like using it, then what's the point? 220 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,600 I mean, we can always ship in new new products. 221 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,480 We can always ship in new features. 222 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:51,760 But if if people actually using it are hating it then. 223 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,680 You you haven't solved their problem. 224 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,280 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, so I think, I think 225 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:05,960 that is a really important piece of this is that your approach is 226 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,280 less here's the tool, here's the capabilities. 227 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,440 If you don't like it, whatever, what you're actually trying to 228 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:19,480 do is, is speak to them in the language of their needs rather 229 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,840 than speak to them in the language of the technology that 230 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,880 you're using. Kind of if I'm understanding 231 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:24,880 your your. Approach. 232 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:31,560 And that that I I bet is a is appreciated by the people that 233 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,960 you're working with. Not most of the times, yeah. 234 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,880 Oh well. When is it not appreciated? 235 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,280 No, yeah, most of the times they like it and understand it. 236 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,880 Sometimes they they like if if the other party is really 237 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,920 technical or they just really want to get into the point and 238 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,920 they were like, hey, OK, cut the chase. 239 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,880 We don't, we don't care about use cases. 240 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,920 We just need to see what's to keep the tool is capable of. 241 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,000 And sometimes that's that's the point. 242 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:06,680 But I also, I had that story in my mind that when I, I do create 243 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,920 applications, I don't say I develop applications because 244 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,200 even if it's a, if I'm a developer, I'm a local 245 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,720 developer. So I only do low code and local 246 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,040 tools. So powerups and power automate. 247 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,680 And so I usually say like I build applications or make 248 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,520 applications and when I'm in the making. 249 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,880 So really deep down and someone is trying to have a call with me 250 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,360 and I'm everywhere, like all day. 251 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,080 I'm just talking to the computer trying to create an app and 252 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,040 someone is calling me. Then OK, I don't have my human 253 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,400 skills on and like, oh, OK, sorry, sorry. 254 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:44,680 I cannot talk. I cannot talk. 255 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,960 I just have like my solution mindset and just I cannot do it. 256 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,240 But maybe next day or an hour later when that one is off, then 257 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,840 I'm good and I can explain things with human language. 258 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,040 So I really do understand developers who have trouble 259 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,400 saying that or yeah, talk through their problems or 260 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,880 through to the challenges or selling their ideas or showing 261 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,720 what they built. Because it can happen if like 262 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:17,560 the whole day you are trying to talk to the computer and find 263 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,120 out like what's the best thing you can do there? 264 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,680 It's it's hard to just step back and because you're talking a 265 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,040 different language, right? So it's absolutely if that, then 266 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,800 if this, that loop and things like that. 267 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,200 And if you, if you do that, it's like hard to go back and like, 268 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,080 OK, we have a different syntax in the human communication and 269 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,400 we, we need to see the other person to see if it, if it 270 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,600 works, if they understand what I'm saying, not just press play 271 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,520 or press run and press compile and then we will see the result. 272 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:51,800 It's. It's not like that in. 273 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,120 The so, so this is interesting. So I would use, have you ever 274 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,480 heard the phrase code switching? Not actually like code code, but 275 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,440 code switching. So what what I hear you saying 276 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,920 is there's you are very aware of when you are in a solution 277 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,280 mindset and using a quote UN quote language for solution, but 278 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,920 that you have to code switch. So you have to switch your 279 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,800 mindset into being able to talk to humans. 280 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,680 Well, that's interesting, right? So, but that you recognize that 281 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,200 you that that is a thing that you have to do in order to be 282 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,120 able to kind of access these human skills. 283 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:35,200 It really is a different step. That's fascinating. 284 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,120 Yeah, it was a it was a journey, right to to understand that 285 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:45,480 because sometimes like that the other one doesn't understand me 286 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,640 what's what's going on. And then I realized that I, I 287 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,880 don't understand my thoughts either because it's just, I'm in 288 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,400 a completely different mindset and like, oh, OK, so I need to 289 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,800 step back or, or come out from the, from the display and like, 290 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,200 OK, I'm here in real life. And then I need different. 291 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,720 I need a different syntax for for human. 292 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,280 I love it and I love that you even talk about I need a 293 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,480 different syntax to talk to humans. 294 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,440 Yeah, I'm not a developer. Right. 295 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,720 So right, right. But that's, that's that idea of 296 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,880 code switching. Like I literally need to. 297 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,600 It's just like, you know, we're speaking in English, but you 298 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,400 obviously speak Hungarian, right? 299 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,120 It's the same thing. It's like, I know I need to, I 300 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:32,640 need to use this language in order to talk to Susan, and I 301 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,320 might need to use this language to talk to somebody that's at 302 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,960 the registration table for at the conference who doesn't speak 303 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,920 English. Interesting. 304 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,000 I mean, that's, that's kind of an interesting concept there. 305 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:52,920 I I am wondering, why do you think these human skills are 306 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,680 undervalued in tech spaces? You know, that was your 307 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,840 inspiration for this conference, was your disappointment that 308 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,640 Microsoft didn't focus on those? Why? 309 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,040 Why do you think we there's not an appreciation for those 310 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,920 skills? I think like most of the tech 311 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,400 companies are are trying to push maybe it's a stronger, but 312 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,320 they're trying to push the the features, the product itself, 313 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,200 right. And and also on these 314 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,840 conferences, that's the that's the focus just to say like, OK, 315 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,040 these are the new features. This is how you do things. 316 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:37,160 So it's in tech, what I see it's like they the people who work in 317 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,280 tag, they just come from like, OK, how to solve problems 318 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,880 through logic and not through any other soft skills. 319 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,640 Like it's the human skills are. I believe it's really hard to 320 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,440 measure or hard to measure, harder to teach because like, 321 00:19:53,920 --> 00:20:01,200 just imagine like you, you go on YouTube or whatever website, you 322 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,600 go on medium, try to read through articles and, and you 323 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,160 can just. Learn things you, you can learn 324 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,480 how to code, you can learn how to make applications, you can 325 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,120 learn a lot of things in the hard skill. 326 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,480 And and I love teaching hard skill, right. 327 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,000 So it's and I think there is a space for that. 328 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,280 But, but if you are going on YouTube and try to learn soft 329 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,480 skills, you can watch the the videos and you are like, OK, 330 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,960 yeah. And then nothing. 331 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,520 You cannot apply it right now. And so that's why I feel like 332 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,240 it's like harder to not to master, but it's harder to teach 333 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:44,560 or harder to like, you need someone to practice it with or 334 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,080 you need to, you need to have someone to do it with. 335 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,160 And it's not not enough just to see what's going on on the video 336 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,800 itself, because you need to actually put it in practice. 337 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:01,800 And yeah. I think you're right and I think 338 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,600 you nailed it. I, I think it, I think they, 339 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,200 those human skills, they are hard to measure. 340 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,320 They are hard to teach. You're not going to a boot camp 341 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,680 to, to learn how to deal with conflict. 342 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,480 And then your certificate says, I can handle all conflict. 343 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,640 The only way I can be good at it. 344 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,880 I can certainly learn some techniques, some skills, but 345 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,960 I've got to go practice it. It, which is honestly, it's not 346 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:32,040 much different than how you taught yourself how to, you 347 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,560 know, how to use your Microsoft stack. 348 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,480 I mean, you had to like learn it and then practice. 349 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,360 But the way that you get good at human skills is it, it really 350 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,720 does require practice and not just practice on the same kinds 351 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,280 of things over and over. You need a variety of things in 352 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,280 order to learn those, so. Yeah, and in some sometimes in 353 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,360 Teams, the soft skills are only notice when they are missing. 354 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,880 And that's true. Like you, you have like you talk 355 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,440 about the project, you do a debrief and like, oh, the 356 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,400 communication wasn't great or we, we didn't. 357 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,240 And and if you think about like every project, every new 358 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,120 technology implementation requires a lot of communication. 359 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:24,080 For example, because you will do chat messages on on Teams, you 360 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,960 will sit on Zoom calls, you will do this, you will create 361 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,840 presentations, you will lock tickets in Jira or in Azure 362 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,080 DevOps. And yeah, it's, it's all 363 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,040 communication and all the time. I, I, I feel like it in many, 364 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,880 many of the projects. If that's like the toughest 365 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,920 thing to do to communicate with others, especially with virtual 366 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,400 settings or hybrid settings and sometimes in in office settings 367 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,800 as well because like, oh, they are not there at their desk and 368 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:59,240 yeah, so. So I wonder if because the value 369 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:05,880 of our technical people, developers, low code, no code 370 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,040 builders. I wonder if because 371 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,480 organizations put the value on their tech skills and they are 372 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,200 in that mindset of I have to solve this problem. 373 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,360 I wonder if somehow that's that is part of the reason that they 374 00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:26,680 are not encouraged by organizations to to develop this 375 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,360 human skill set in communication, in facilitation. 376 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,800 What would you would is is that what you see? 377 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,640 We we just keep our developers in one, one lane. 378 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,520 It it could make 100% sense from from the organization 379 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,560 perspective that we keep our people doing what they are good 380 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,840 at. But on the other hand, I believe 381 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,000 that if they, for example, cannot communicate well, they 382 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,200 cannot sell their ideas. A lot of good things can be 383 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:10,200 stuck within because you can just expect that the they will 384 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,280 do whatever they do and then they will have a perfect 385 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,320 presentation on on their biggest idea, which could turn your 386 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:24,000 whole company around and you just it will be stuck within the 387 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,880 within the organization or within this boxes. 388 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,280 Because I think that's that's we are labeling them or we are 389 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,560 putting them in boxes that OK, that's your spot. 390 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,160 Don't move right. Don't. 391 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,880 Move, don't try to move as well because it's like if you are 392 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,080 trying to get like, OK, let's go back to your box and and I feel 393 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,120 that could be the problem here that a lot of things, a lot of 394 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:53,840 good things can stuck in there. I, I, you know, I, I understand 395 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,600 that, you know, maybe organizations don't realize that 396 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,320 they are missing opportunities to have even better outcomes. 397 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,600 It's one thing for us to say the developer will develop what you 398 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,200 asked for and that thing that you asked for could solve your 399 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,280 problem, but it could be a terrible experience. 400 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,840 It could be actually not, it could create a whole other set 401 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,120 of problems. But if we were to encourage our 402 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:22,080 our technical folks to step up, even if they're not asked, but 403 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,640 to step up and try to build these skills or use these 404 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,160 skills, organizations might get better outcomes. 405 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,760 I yeah. So now I just want to remind our 406 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,400 audience today we are live and we are going to take your 407 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,680 questions. What do you want to know about 408 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,200 human skills in a tech world? Don't forget to put some 409 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,120 questions in there. We'll take those questions 410 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:54,560 shortly. All right, well, let's see what 411 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,920 is some advice? I mean, I know the talk that you 412 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,400 did for BA and beyond. What would be some other advice 413 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,760 that you might give to developers who are thinking, you 414 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,680 know, maybe, maybe I should, maybe I would like to get more 415 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,240 involved with helping to define solutions, not just provide 416 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,920 them, but I'd like to be more involved in how we get there. 417 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:25,800 What's advice you give them? I think like the very first one, 418 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:31,440 I usually say that raise your hand, OK, I'm here or articulate 419 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,320 your needs or articulate what you would like to do, ask 420 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,480 questions or request things. And, and also I've been to 90 421 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:44,080 days mentoring challenge by a Microsoft fellow, Microsoft MVP, 422 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,720 Mark Smith. And the very first thing we 423 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,840 needed to do is to work on our communication skills. 424 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,720 So that the very, very first thing, that was the first thing 425 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,440 like that is super important. And I think it's stuck with me. 426 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,920 And the very first challenge was that we needed to go to a 427 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:10,280 Toastmasters session and they they said like, OK, if you like 428 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,760 it, you can stick with it for six months to see if you can can 429 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,640 improve. And I think it was, I did three 430 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,360 years and it was a really, really great thing that that 431 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,920 happened. It gives you a really good space 432 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,920 to practice. And it's not only public 433 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,640 speaking or communication, but also how to give feedback and 434 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,880 how to do any leadership skills, delegation and a lot of other 435 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,280 good things that that's in Toastmasters and it's available 436 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,480 in a lot of countries and a lot of cities. 437 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,840 So I think that I would stick with that just to start, like, 438 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,840 hey, OK, I'm here. Be visible some with the 439 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,520 question with a request or if, if no one knows what you want, 440 00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,880 then how how do how would they enable you in that sense? 441 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,760 So I think that would be the the very first thing that if you 442 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,880 want to be more on the on that side that you want to get out of 443 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,080 your box, then you need to get out first and then say that. 444 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,880 And it's it. It might not work with with all 445 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,560 the organizations. I I get that because some 446 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,320 organizations will say like, OK, that's your box, go back. 447 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:27,080 But some more organization will say that or even rewarded that, 448 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,000 hey, OK, you are out of your box because you want to do something 449 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,280 else, you want to do differently, you want to obscure 450 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,840 yourself. And we, we appreciate that. 451 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,720 And then you can lead to a promotion. 452 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:45,400 It can give you a bigger bonus, a carrier change completely, 453 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,400 Yeah. Or just a bigger satisfaction at 454 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,280 your daily, daily life at work. So. 455 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,920 I think, I think that last point that you made is really 456 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,760 important. If you are somebody who wants to 457 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,560 move up with your technical skills and manage teams, manage 458 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:13,000 projects, be, you know, part of a leadership team, actually, it 459 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,440 is going to become incredibly important for you to have 460 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,640 developed these human skills around giving feedback, 461 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,240 leadership, being able to communicate with a wide variety 462 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,240 of audiences. The farther you move up your 463 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,800 career path, actually the more important those skills become 464 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,480 and the less important your technical skills become. 465 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,080 So that's that's a really good piece of advice. 466 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,840 And maybe something that we don't think about it is, is 467 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,000 we're growing our career is there's a balance to the skill 468 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,760 sets that we have at different, at different points in our 469 00:29:53,760 --> 00:30:00,640 career. Also, I, I know that for some, 470 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,560 some folks that do development or are data engineers, I've got 471 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,240 one of those in my house right now. 472 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,840 They say, well, I'm an introvert. 473 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,640 I can't, I can't possibly talk to people. 474 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,920 I just want to be behind the screen all day. 475 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,080 I, I you've got to have advice for them, right? 476 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,880 And, and I think it's fine, right? 477 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,280 I have, I have the same. So I, I work in Home Office, I, 478 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:34,240 most of my meetings are virtual and I completely get it right. 479 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,280 So I, I completely get it if they don't, don't want to go out 480 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,520 in the real world. And, and I, I go to conferences 481 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,560 as a speaker or I organize my own conference. 482 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,880 And in, in many cases, what I, when I do a volunteering session 483 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:56,760 in a camp, I go to a place where there will be 102 hundred, 300 484 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,960 people and like, they are buzzing and moving around and 485 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,440 energetic and like, yeah, well, what's going on? 486 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,880 And I need, I need time to, to feel right in those situations. 487 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,040 So I think like the main advice for them, it's like, it's OK, 488 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,440 it's nothing wrong with it. It's you are, you are fine. 489 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,040 It's, it's the way you live your life. 490 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,240 Sometimes it's good to challenge yourself to go out and try to 491 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,640 talk, like at a conference, for example, to, to go walk up to 492 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,760 someone and ask a question or just introduce yourself or join 493 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,160 a group conversation. Or just first of all, go to meet 494 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:43,040 up that is free in your city or that may be the biggest step you 495 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:48,080 ever took or ever taken. It's just like to show up that 496 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,560 that would be already something. Because like that could be for 497 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,840 someone the most challenging thing just to be present or just 498 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,680 to show up to an event. Because it can be those kind of 499 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,040 thoughts in your head that, OK, a lot of people, I don't like 500 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,240 people and you know, you know the drill, I guess. 501 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,760 Yes, I'm an introvert. I understand this. 502 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,920 And it's, it's, it's completely fine. 503 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,120 So if I go to a conference, like, I think like my very first 504 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,120 conference was with like 3000 people. 505 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,760 And, and I, I, I think it's back in, back in that year, I was 506 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,560 working in the office. So I had people around me. 507 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,240 But after that, like my second biggest phone was in in Vegas 508 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,480 two years ago and and from Home Office going to 4005 thousand 509 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,680 people conference. That's. 510 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,160 In Las Vegas, no less. That's a lot of. 511 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,480 Energy, a lot of lights, a lot of loud music, a lot of drunk 512 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,640 people like, ah, no, that's like, that's, that's what I 513 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,400 signed up for. And but yeah, I got I, I, I 514 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,880 don't say I got the hang of it. I got super, super tired of it, 515 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,840 of this. It drained my energy a lot. 516 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,760 Just try to find people, try to talk to them and try to have 517 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,600 some like genuine connection. But yeah, I come back from 518 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,240 conferences and like, or, or volunteering and like, Oh, yes, 519 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,640 it's, it's, it's quiet now and it's, it's no people running 520 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,520 around me. And it's, it's sometimes it's 521 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,280 amazing to just just go back to your little bubble or little. 522 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,320 And, and really, that's what being an introvert is. 523 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,320 It is where you you find your energy. 524 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:42,160 And for introverts, typically a noisy spaces with lots of 525 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,000 people, it's just it's a whole lot. 526 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,520 But in those spaces, you can find a human connection with a 527 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,800 couple of folks. Like I'm, I'm that person that, 528 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,840 you know, I'm in the lunch line, I'm waiting for coffee, right? 529 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,600 And I'm just making small talk with people around me, not 530 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,480 necessarily to make a like to create a relationship, but it's 531 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:14,000 not, it's a great opportunity to just talk to someone just a 532 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,600 little bit because in those moments, you never know when you 533 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,639 will meet someone who has a similar interest as you or is 534 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,520 going to the same talk as you. And you don't have to be friends 535 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,719 forever, but it's an opportunity to practice. 536 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,800 By the way. So if you are someone that says 537 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,760 I don't, I don't really talk to people. 538 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,800 OK, great. Talk to somebody in the lunch 539 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,960 line, that's all. Just say, hey, that salad looks 540 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,960 delicious. What are you going to have 541 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,040 today? Like it sounds crazy, but those 542 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,679 are opportunities to practice if you aren't comfortable speaking. 543 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,320 Yeah, 100%. I mean, it's always, always fun 544 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,880 to go out to do these these kind of events and just challenge 545 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:05,120 yourself and, and just try to just, yeah, do your out of your 546 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,680 comfort zone a bit. It's it's. 547 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:15,920 Yes, I I worked with someone on one of my teams who was very 548 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,440 intimidated. She was very skilled at at her 549 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,640 job but found it very intimidating to be in a room 550 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:28,480 full of other people that she felt knew more than her that did 551 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,920 better work than her. And I said, no, like that's, 552 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,280 it's not what's happening, but I, I want to appreciate that you 553 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,480 are feeling that way. And then let's work on a tool 554 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,760 that you can use to help you be part of the conversation. 555 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,840 Because she was feeling like, I do have things to say, but I'm 556 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,160 just too afraid to speak. And So what we would do is 557 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,640 before each of her meetings, we would sit down and she always 558 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,480 came very prepared and we would put together a couple questions 559 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,200 that she could ask that she could have ready and she could 560 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,760 raise her hand and she could, you know, ask a question. 561 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,360 And that gave her confidence. And it also allowed her to be 562 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,640 part of the conversation because of course, if you ask the 563 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,760 question, you get an answer. And sometimes you have to ask 564 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,960 more questions. So there are also little tricks 565 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,600 that you can use, but I'll use your words. 566 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,240 It is. It is raising your hand and 567 00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:31,360 being visible. Those are actually the very 568 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,880 first steps. If you are wanting to get 569 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,600 outside of that tech bubble, you need to make yourself visible. 570 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,160 So yes. There's nothing wrong with the 571 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,200 tech bubble. So it's it's right. 572 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,560 You need to Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's yeah, but yeah, all 573 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:50,400 right. Just yeah. 574 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,560 Raising the hand is is good. I just see. 575 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,320 Right. Those sound like simple steps. 576 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,840 We are. I'm going to move over here to 577 00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,520 some questions. So let's see. 578 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,880 I've got 4 questions flagged, but if you see something else, 579 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,160 you let me know. All right, so the first question 580 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:06,640 that we have here, this is from Mary. 581 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,560 Hey Mary, does the tech world value business analyst human 582 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,720 skills? If not, how do you handle this 583 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:19,520 situation? I think they do. 584 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,640 I think they do in many, many ways. 585 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,880 Not always, but I think it's not black and white in most of the 586 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,240 cases, right. So it's you can't say that. 587 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:32,880 Yeah, yeah, it will, it will happen anytime or all the time 588 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,320 that they do value the human skills. 589 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:42,200 But I think they, I mean most like some of the new reports and 590 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,280 some of the new research shows that it's getting more and more 591 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,720 and more important because of the quick, quick pace and the 592 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,360 quick changes in, in, in our environment. 593 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,880 It's rapid. It's super, super fast. 594 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,080 Every week, sometimes every day, there is a new thing coming up, 595 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,360 a new shiny new thing coming up. And it's better and faster and 596 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:10,160 cost less, in many cases more. But that doesn't, but that's the 597 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,360 thing. And then, OK, how can you cope 598 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,320 with that if you don't have a group mindset, curiosity, 599 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,640 whatnot. And I think it's, they do, they 600 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,440 do value human skills. And if they don't and how I 601 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,320 usually handle I, I tell them that that this is really 602 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,480 important. It, it might be the go, no, go 603 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,080 for your project. If we don't use human skills and 604 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,720 we just solely rely on tech, then yeah, we will have a 605 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:42,200 product that people will not like or we will have a product 606 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,520 that will not work, not only, not like, or we will have a 607 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,360 delay for two years or yeah. So I think that's like how I 608 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,080 would usually handle it, that I would just be really honest, 609 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,880 straight and transparent with them that OK, this is what I see 610 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,240 and you like it or not, and let's have a conversation about 611 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:05,120 it. What's what's the point of not 612 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,840 having human skills in in in this project, for example? 613 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:15,080 And I think sometimes there's a perception that when I'm, when 614 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:21,080 I'm asking these questions, which might, which, you know, 615 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,520 sometimes our stakeholders haven't thought about, which 616 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,680 might introduce a whole new element to the thing that we're 617 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,960 doing. I, I sometimes think that 618 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,400 organizations think that that question is just going to slow 619 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,880 me down, right? But the reason that we want you 620 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,840 to take a moment to think about it is because we don't want you 621 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,320 to have a bad outcome because we don't want you to have an 622 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,320 unintended consequence. And especially with AI these 623 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,240 days, AI is a great example of if we move too quickly, we will 624 00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:54,080 not just break things, but we we could potentially really damage 625 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,360 our businesses, our products, because there are important 626 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,080 things that we've, we've got to talk about and understand before 627 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,560 we can deliver. Yeah, 100%. 628 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:10,080 All right, so let's see, we've got something else here. 629 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,600 I'm preparing my students to enter the tech world one day. 630 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,240 How do I make them see the value of these skills? 631 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:18,240 They seem to be very disinterested in developing 632 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:20,280 those. I've heard this from other 633 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,960 educators, by the way. I have heard that there's more 634 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,560 of focus on the cool technology and less on developing these 635 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,320 other skills. Yeah. 636 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,640 And that and I think they will be especially I just had that 637 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,640 discussion yesterday with someone. 638 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:45,120 And like with experts, if if you are on a level, on an expert 639 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,960 level that it's OK if you and sometimes if you don't have 640 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,160 proper human skills, that's fine because you have your technology 641 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,280 and it's completely OK. But now if you are a fresh grad 642 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,720 or just starting off your career, if you are a junior in 643 00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:06,800 an organization that I think the tech will not, tech knowledge 644 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,320 might not differentiate you from other candidates. 645 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,280 Because right now, how long does it take to find anything out? 646 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:21,000 And maybe you'll not get 100% correct answers right because it 647 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,880 can have a snake that can give you false information. 648 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:30,040 So it's, it's not, I don't think that will be the differentiator. 649 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,640 But if you are a better communicator, if you are more 650 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:38,520 flexible, if you can, yeah, if you have more that connection 651 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,960 capabilities with others, then I think you will be better off 652 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:49,040 than if you have, I don't know, 3545 people for the same role. 653 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,040 Then they might select someone who is like, OK, they have the 654 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:58,320 same tech skills, but they they communicate more clearly or 655 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,960 explain things in many different ways. 656 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:06,800 Or they have better leadership potential, or they have better 657 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,560 delegation because they did volunteering during the 658 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:15,440 university or they was part of the student association or of 659 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,360 whatnot. And I think maybe they will 660 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,640 learn it in the hard way and that they say like, OK, like no 661 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,640 one wants me as an intern because I, I only know Python 662 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,120 And it could happen and it's already happening. 663 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,400 I see, see a lot of those that even like to get an internship 664 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,560 is really hard or just to get a junior role as a developer or 665 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,960 data analyst or data engineer, or I think I can name a lot of 666 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,920 Thrones right now where where it's hard to get just an 667 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:57,400 internship or a junior role. So how, how do you make them see 668 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,400 it? It's just once again, I'm an 669 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,600 honest guy. So just try to be honest with 670 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,080 them that maybe it will be easier for them in the future if 671 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:11,880 they they try to to see the value in it or I think. 672 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,680 That's, that's and you know, we're, I'm well, I was going to 673 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,720 say, you know, we're talking to a younger generation who has, 674 00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:23,560 has been, you know, they've had their, their devices with them 675 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,240 since they were born, almost right. 676 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:29,440 And so they've lived their whole life being connected to this 677 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,960 thing. And so you somehow have to 678 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,520 convince them that the technology that you have. 679 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,640 I I mean that that is an excellent point. 680 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,440 These days. You can find an answer and build 681 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:42,640 an app. I mean, that's kind of where we 682 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,040 started our conversation before we went Live Today. 683 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,680 You were talking about, well, I just, I got to go back to the 684 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,480 drawing board. I'm going to have to kind of 685 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,520 rebuild this thing and it will AI will, you know, expedite your 686 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,960 being able to build that you can get an answer quickly. 687 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:02,040 What will differentiate you is do you have the right skills to 688 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,760 talk to people to explain what's happening, to be able to verify 689 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,680 that this stuff coming out of AI is correct? 690 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,800 That is a completely different skill set than I know Python. 691 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,520 I'm good at Python. Well, AI can be good at Python 692 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,840 to a certain degree. So that's a tough one. 693 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,760 Let's see. Well, let's here, let's take 694 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,200 maybe another question. I think I also dropped in a 695 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:31,280 couple of So Babaji Day says you can't be in tech or ABA and not 696 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,440 talk, that's for sure. Let's see. 697 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,640 How about here's a question from Russell. 698 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,880 Hey Russell is AI democratizes tech to more people. 699 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,160 Is the future value of the BA outside of the tech bubble and 700 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,360 in human skills? I mean is that kind of the 701 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,720 future? Like regardless of your title, 702 00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:55,280 is it are like human skills? Just the thing anyway. 703 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,840 I mean, I'm not, I don't say that it's like the end of tech 704 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,400 skills. It's I think it would be really, 705 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,000 really not wise to say that from me at least. 706 00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:13,000 And I don't like these future tellers in that sense that OK, 707 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,880 we will. We are going to just tell you 708 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,480 straight that this is going to happen. 709 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,680 I don't know. And many other people don't know 710 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:25,120 I'm not a researcher of the future of tech in that sense. 711 00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:27,160 So it's just like I am interested in it. 712 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:33,240 But I think for me at least, I can only talk about me and what 713 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:40,000 I see in my future, right? So I built that's not the right 714 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,280 word. Proper developers will hate me 715 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,640 for that. I've I quoted an application 716 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,160 multiple applications for for my conference and also that helps 717 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,080 me which otherwise I wouldn't be able to do it at all. 718 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,400 It's, it's completely new as well. 719 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,720 Like I've done some coding before. 720 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:05,240 So I've created automation with VPA with macros and I did a lot 721 00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,960 those kind of coding. I did and I did it when I was in 722 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,360 high school. I built my websites, 723 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,240 applications and a lot of other things. 724 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:15,640 But I just never wanted to become a full full time 725 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,080 developer or it's always always a self thought self thought 726 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:25,680 thing. And my example I was like, OK, I 727 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,040 want to build an application that can create badges with 728 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,760 personalized badges with QR code with the name, title and so on. 729 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,680 Of course there are some tools, but I don't want to give those 730 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,360 tools my the access to my database for example. 731 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:46,440 So I built a local tool that can go to my database and get all 732 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:51,400 that information and I can completely personalize how I 733 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,880 want it. How are the the printing company 734 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:59,920 needs this yeah, let's add it. Can you add this feature Yes and 735 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:02,760 a moment later it works. But yesterday I did some upgrade 736 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,600 that now it doesn't work when I need to send send things out to 737 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,000 the to the printing company. So, but I think just right 738 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,680 before the code started working again, because I, I played 739 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,600 around with the with the security, but now it's now it's 740 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,480 good and should be able to ship it today. 741 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:26,200 So, but that's, that's, I think how it could democratize for 742 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,000 people. And I also see it from like even 743 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,320 from my family, I would say because my, my 2, I have two 744 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,320 brothers and they are not so tech savvy. 745 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,720 And one of one of them, he was like, oh, OK, I've created the 746 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:45,080 something calculator for myself in Google AI studio with 747 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,280 prompting. And he has his own calculator 748 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,480 for his work. And he can just put in a lot of 749 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:55,080 information And this spits out the end result, which was 100% 750 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,440 wouldn't be able to do it by himself. 751 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:02,880 And, and these kind of things that can enable you to, to 752 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,960 create things. And it's also the the tough 753 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:13,240 question as well, because now those ideas that were in the in 754 00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:17,240 the drawer can come out. And even if you can build an app 755 00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:19,640 for it, it might not be a need for it, right? 756 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,640 So it can just be our, our world now. 757 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:27,200 It could be full of unwanted applications or just because you 758 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,080 could do it, it doesn't mean you should. 759 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,160 And yeah, that's, that's what I see. 760 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,880 Like what this AI generated pictures that sometimes just 761 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,280 doesn't make sense or just for fun. 762 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:44,560 They consume a lot of energy and it yeah, I'm not saying I 763 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,440 haven't done any of those that I just play around, but it, it 764 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,320 yeah. So these kind of things like 765 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,480 where you find the balance in in these things, that's from, yeah, 766 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,560 from any perspective. I think what I hear you saying 767 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:05,200 is really we've got an opportunity to be human first, 768 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,680 because really maybe the the future is. 769 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:14,120 And I think the future is now by the way, that anybody really can 770 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:18,800 use AI to help them do anything. You don't even have to be tech 771 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,400 savvy. I mean, clearly it helps 772 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,800 particularly if you are somebody hired into organizations to, to, 773 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,000 to creating. But I do think that human 1st 774 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,400 and then builder, to use your term builder next might actually 775 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:43,800 be maybe the future of our work because that's that is the 776 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:49,000 building part is becoming a little more quick these days. 777 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,360 I don't know, maybe that's maybe that's what it is. 778 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:54,880 Well, let's see. So that's the end of our 779 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,880 questions. Thank you again, this has been a 780 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,880 great conversation. I'm glad you could come in, you 781 00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,320 could share some of this knowledge. 782 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,320 I can see there's lots of lots of folks are are agreeing with 783 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,600 you on we need some more human skills in this tech world. 784 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,000 So thank you, Matei. Thank you for having me have a 785 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,400 good. One, all right, we'll see you 786 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,920 soon. All right, And that is it for 787 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,360 today's session. I hope you got a little more 788 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,760 insight into why those human skills in the tech world are 789 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,640 really important. In two weeks, we're going to be 790 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,400 back and we are going to be talking to someone who has a 791 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,400 podcast and his podcast is all about talking with business 792 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:39,040 analysis professionals on many different kinds of subjects. 793 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,920 So we'll be talking about conversations that shape the 794 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,600 business analysis community. I hope that you'll join us in 795 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,960 two weeks from today. Take care. 796 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,960 Bye, bye. If you're hearing this, you made 797 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,280 it to the end of the episode. Thanks for listening. 798 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,720 Do you have any questions, comments or thoughts about 799 00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,600 today's topic? We'd love to hear them. 800 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,040 Drop us a review or leave a note in the comments. 801 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,200 Then like, subscribe or share this podcast if you like what 802 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,120 you heard. And hey, you can help us shape 803 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,440 future episodes. What do you want to know more 804 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,600 about? Send us an e-mail at Live at 805 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,440 iiba.org with your ideas. See you again on our next 806 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:14,000 episode.