1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,320 Welcome to Business Analysis Live. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,560 I'm your host, Susan Moore, community engagement manager 3 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:09,480 with the International Institute of Business Analysis. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,680 I explore topics with industry guests about the work of 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,600 business analysis professionals and how their work helps 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,840 organizations achieve better outcomes. 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,760 And Yep, we take your questions too. 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,760 Thanks for listening. Let's get started. 9 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,320 I talk a lot, if you've listened, if you've seen this, 10 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,960 this podcast or this live stream, you know that we talked 11 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:38,760 to a lot of people in the business analysis community. 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,880 And you may think that maybe the most influential voices in our 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,880 community are the ones who are writing or speaking or doing 14 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,320 training. But I would argue that some of 15 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,240 the most influential voices are you the people that are actually 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,960 doing the work. You are the folks who know a lot 17 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,160 and have seen a lot and have a lot to offer. 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,880 And as we were taking a look at who else is talking within our 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:13,120 community, we found another podcast and another host who was 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,680 doing something similar. So I thought it was a good 21 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,440 opportunity for us to commiserate a little bit and 22 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,400 find out about what are the kinds of conversations that are 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:28,280 helping to shape our community. And our guest today is John 24 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,600 Wisner. John, you are the Coho, You are 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,840 the host. There's no Co, you're the host. 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,600 There's not, and I'm not recruiting yet either. 27 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,000 That's right. You're a one man show and you 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,200 have you've you've you've got a lot of guests. 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,840 So you are a one man show who is moderating conversations. 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,200 BA Insights is the name of your podcast and you've been doing it 31 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:54,040 for a couple of seasons now. First, why don't you introduce 32 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,000 yourself? So for folks who may not have 33 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,240 caught you on your podcast, tell us about you. 34 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,200 Tell us about your podcast. OK. 35 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,640 Thanks, Susan. My name is John Wisner. 36 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,120 As you can see, I'm a Principal Management Principal at Capco. 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,920 We're a consultancy based in the UK, but globally as well, where 38 00:02:11,920 --> 00:02:14,760 I lead the BA and process capability. 39 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,920 Aside from that, I spend a lot of my day working with different 40 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:21,800 clients on all things business analysis. 41 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,840 And if that weren't enough, I'm also, as Susan mentioned, 42 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,880 hosting ABA Insights podcast on YouTube and Spotify. 43 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,960 And as Susan said, yeah, it's been a really good way to meet 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,720 plenty of people in the BA community, Susan included. 45 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,160 Yeah, that's, yeah, you and I actually, you and I, I mean, I, 46 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,840 I did the podcast, but also you are a voice who participates in 47 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,640 some of our leadership workshops that we have. 48 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,840 And so you've done that a couple of times over the years. 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,440 So that's another way that you and I have had an opportunity to 50 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,960 chat. Well, all right, so. 51 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:04,560 And by the way, love that you've got your BA Insights swag in the 52 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,000 background. See, I've got. 53 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,080 I normally do the other way around, so I've been practicing. 54 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,400 I got to step up my game, John. I need to. 55 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,480 I need to do better. I just have holidays. 56 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:14,760 Behind that is your prudence season. 57 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,480 You've you you like almost every one of my guests has a more 58 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:18,840 interesting background than myself. 59 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,200 So I've I've sort of put that in place to to prevent the blank 60 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,680 wall. All right. 61 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:30,200 Well, good to know. Well, OK, so listen, let's let's 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,120 dive into this a little bit, 'cause I'm, I'm, I'm, I've got 63 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,440 an inquiring mind and I need to know some things about your 64 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,200 podcast. So, and by the way, for our 65 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,880 audience today, we are live and we want to take your questions 66 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,240 as well. So make sure that you get those 67 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,120 ready to go. OK. 68 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,840 So first of all, what, what inspired you to start that 69 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,800 podcast? You've got a day job like you're 70 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,640 doing business analysis every day. 71 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,880 Why add this podcast? Well, I, I mean, the, the 72 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,800 entirety of my business analysis has been occurring in financial 73 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,000 services and, and I, I can't recall how many years back, but 74 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,079 let's assume it's about four. It feels like it's probably 75 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:18,720 longer than that, but there's been a point where I thought, I 76 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,440 wonder if business analysis is much different in other domains. 77 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,240 You know, and of course, you know, I appreciate the Iibas and 78 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,520 other, other bodies. They don't just speak to 79 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,560 financial services, they speak to all domains and all 80 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,040 locations. But I thought, you know, wonder 81 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,720 what it's really like on the ground working in a completely 82 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,040 different domain, you know, so, and, and that was really at the 83 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,640 heart of, of why I set the, the podcast up. 84 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,160 And in fact, it wasn't even a podcast in the first instance. 85 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,760 It was really, you know, I had this this view that I wanted to 86 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,880 go and speak to other BAS didn't think I had any credibility to 87 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,680 necessarily do it because, you know, yeah, like maybe like some 88 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,960 of us, right? It's like, who am I to reach out 89 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,240 to somebody in a completely different domain who I've never 90 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,240 spoken to before and ask them about how they do their and 91 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:08,680 approach business analysis, right? 92 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,480 And even if they had something amazing to say, why would they 93 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,360 be interested in saying it to me was my perception at the time, 94 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,800 you know, so, so I think it's around 2022. 95 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,520 I was fortunate enough to be nominated for BA of the year and 96 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,160 got to the final. And I thought, actually, this is 97 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,320 probably, you know, there's no better chance of being a little 98 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,800 bit credible to reach out to people. 99 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,280 And maybe they might think actually, yes, John probably has 100 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:40,800 got something to talk about that I'm interested in, you know, so 101 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:42,880 that that was the basis of it really. 102 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,400 And then from that, yeah, sorry, speaking to a few people, 103 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,720 actually some of the guests were my fellow finalists, you know, 104 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,840 Helen Holder being an obvious one that, you know, sat next to 105 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,240 in the, in the BA conference was waiting for the the the winner 106 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,680 to be announced and fail as well who went on to win it that year, 107 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,800 Angus, who was another finalist. So I spoke to that. 108 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,480 It was, it was an excellent opportunity as well to have a 109 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,200 longer conversation with the people that I've been sharing 110 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:14,400 the sort of finance podium with. And the more conversation was 111 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,200 having in which was all generally about how you approach 112 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,560 business analysis. It wasn't a specific topic. 113 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,160 It was obvious that it was quite interesting. 114 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,840 You know, I was really enjoying the conversation and hearing 115 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:29,920 what people had to say almost every session, probably every 116 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,960 session, I had little notes that I'd take away, taken back to 117 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,400 Capco and say, there's a, there's a few things we can do 118 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,840 here for the community or even just to reinforce the good work 119 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:41,400 that myself and the team were doing, which is equally 120 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,240 valuable. So I've done a lot of that. 121 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,720 And, and throughout the, the, the, the, you know, the, the 122 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,760 year that I spent having those one once weekly conversations, a 123 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,960 few people said to me, you know, have I thought about making it a 124 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,560 podcast? You know, and Brian, you're one 125 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,080 of my guests. He was one of those that said 126 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,480 that. And I thought, yeah, maybe I 127 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,200 will. And I never really got around to 128 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,000 it for a while. And then I thought, actually, if 129 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,520 I, if in the second season, if I can make it a podcast and I can, 130 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,400 then maybe it, it might be a way to not only maybe appeal to 131 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,120 people that I wouldn't necessarily be able to connect 132 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:22,200 within the BA community. But also I found that throughout 133 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,360 my 52 conversations, I was almost sharing with every one of 134 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,480 them bits I'd learned and spoken about on other conversations. 135 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,440 So I thought, well, if I, if nothing else, just by putting 136 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,560 the sessions out there, then any of my guests who have been on a 137 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,800 session can listen to how others approach things. 138 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,760 So that was that was it. Yeah, fairly, fairly modest. 139 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,840 Beginnings, you know those initial guests when you reached 140 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,400 out to them and said, hey, I'd like to record this conversation 141 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,200 like, well, clearly they said yes, but what was motivating 142 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,720 them to want to talk about what they did? 143 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,800 I mean, I think, I think one of the, I think there's a few 144 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,760 things, I'm sure I won't hit on everything, but I think, you 145 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,400 know, there's a lot of conversations that we have 146 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,080 sometimes with our stakeholders. And you know, some, many of 147 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:18,840 those stakeholders are not business analysts. 148 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,040 So therefore, they're not necessarily going to appreciate 149 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,560 what the BA role is all about, you know, how broad it can be 150 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,720 some of the best practices that we can apply. 151 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,120 So therefore, you know, it's for them. 152 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,080 I think it was also another opportunity to maybe maybe get 153 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,840 their message across to some of their stakeholders around what 154 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,799 is business analysis, you know, so maybe that was that was part 155 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,920 of the appeal. These are, you know, two way 156 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,400 conversations. They've become, you know, 157 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:48,480 conversations with more than two of us. 158 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,880 So I think it's every guest has that opportunity to learn from 159 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,200 each other on the calls as well as from from other sessions that 160 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,800 we have. So hopefully, Susan, that's 161 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,760 yeah, they're, they're some of the reasons why the guests turn 162 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,560 up as well, You know, and of course, I have no problem if any 163 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:11,320 guest wants to turn up and, and promote what they're doing or 164 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,080 who they're working for within reason, as long as they're not 165 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:20,040 promoting anything that might be contradictory to my own time. 166 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,000 Obviously I don't want to promote that. 167 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,440 But as long as it's harmonious to the BA community and to what 168 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,400 we're doing during the day, then I'm I'm pretty happy for people 169 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,960 to promote their book or their podcast or whatever else it 170 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,240 might be. Yeah. 171 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,240 I mean, I think the more that we can connect people within our 172 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:42,120 community to other people in our community to me, the better. 173 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,680 I Have you ever had Stuart Mullinger as one of your guests? 174 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,920 Stu is located there in the UK. If not, he's been on my list for 175 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:52,480 a while. OK, I'll have to look through, 176 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:57,440 but I know sure well. He was a guest here, maybe it 177 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,320 was last year and we were talking about community and I'm 178 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,480 not going to get this quote exact, but he said something 179 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,680 like, you know, we can't all be the flowers. 180 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:10,240 We also some of us need to be the mulch. 181 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,000 And I think that that stuck with me because a lot of the times I 182 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:21,480 think in our, in our community, if, if we think about talking to 183 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:26,680 other people about what we do, we think, well, you know, I've 184 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:29,240 got to let some of these big names talk, you know, they're 185 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,720 the ones that really should be talking, not me. 186 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,760 But he's right. We need to also be talking 187 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,200 amongst ourselves and in these spaces because some of what we 188 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:45,720 do is misunderstood. Some of what we do is specific 189 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,920 to our domain or the tech stack we work in or the organizations 190 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,040 that we that we're in. And I think the more that we can 191 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,680 just be talking about even the mundane things, I think the more 192 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,800 that that folks who are interested in this or who think 193 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:07,480 they are alone are not, they find a common, I don't know, 194 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,880 they find kind of a common spirit, a common something that 195 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,680 they're not alone. Yeah, I think so, yeah. 196 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:17,560 And I, I think that's it. I mean, because I can definitely 197 00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:21,320 appreciate, you know, the, the time when I was a business 198 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,040 analyst for the first time, you know, and as I said, sort of 199 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,840 sort of mentioned, I wasn't an expert on what it is. 200 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,360 It's I definitely didn't go to college or anything to study to 201 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,000 be ABA. It just sort of happened. 202 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,320 And then I was like, you know, I had no idea if there was any BAS 203 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:37,920 out there. I shouldn't, there was of 204 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,880 course, but certainly wasn't in any connection with them. 205 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,440 So I think, I think I can definitely appreciate that, that 206 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,640 point when you're sitting there doing your work, you think 207 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,040 you're doing OK, but you're not entirely sure because you 208 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,840 haven't really connected with anyone else who's doing 209 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,040 something similar. Yeah, I, I think so many of us 210 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,280 come from other educational backgrounds, professional 211 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,320 backgrounds, or maybe we've done, we've done something else 212 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:08,200 that's more common, I think. And so, you know, I think that a 213 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,520 lot of people that are interested in business analysis, 214 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,880 they just assume that we all have computer science degrees. 215 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:18,360 I was a film major with an art history background who, you 216 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,800 know, who worked in a, in a law firm and did a bunch of other 217 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:28,280 things. And so I, you know, I had a, an 218 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,600 experience that I could bring into this. 219 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:36,160 And in fact, the topic that that you actually, I think you 220 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,920 allowed me to pick from your list of 52 what I, what, what I 221 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,520 wanted to talk about. And I think the topic that I 222 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:48,600 ended up joining you for was business analysis is what you 223 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,040 make of it. And we had David Beckham. 224 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,280 Admittedly not that David Beckham, but still, he was a 225 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:56,160 lovely. Man. 226 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,560 I'd said that to my husband and he was like, wait, who was the 227 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,160 other guest? And I was like it. 228 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,760 It's not, it's not that David Beckham, but we had a great 229 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,840 conversation about it. Business analysis is what you 230 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,200 make of it. And probably I, I think I talked 231 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,160 about, you know, making student films and things like that. 232 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,920 And so when I got into this work, I approached it as another 233 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,960 kind of a creative project. It was just an intellectual 234 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,400 process where we were building something. 235 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:37,080 And so, you know, I, I think that we don't just have to have 236 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,600 that business analysis knowledge. 237 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,400 You can actually bring this whole other piece with you into 238 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,480 the work that we do. Oh yeah, yeah. 239 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:45,680 I mean, there's so many people I speak to. 240 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:49,600 Where, you know, now we're sort of frustrated artists. 241 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,720 I use the word weak. So I feel like I am a little bit 242 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,320 as well like any, any opportunity to to add a little 243 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,120 bit of razzmatazz to a diagram, you know, really. 244 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,720 But I think, you know, as many people like that have got 245 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:06,000 creative side that they can, you know, be it business analysis 246 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,800 does give you that opportunity to bring that creativity to it. 247 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,440 You don't just have to follow like free techniques every day. 248 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,400 It's like, you know, there's 100 plus techniques probably and you 249 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,560 can refine them as, as you need to for your stakeholder purposes 250 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:22,920 and you can be creative, you know? 251 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,040 Yeah. I, I think we, we often think, 252 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,280 well there this isn't a very creative business, except I 253 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,640 would argue that it is. I mean, when you are dealing 254 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,520 with people, when you are having to get people to change a 255 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,640 perspective, create, make a decision, you've got to use, I 256 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,040 think a lot of creativity in order to wrangle all of those 257 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,480 folks. And if you've got that arts 258 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:56,360 background, visualizations to me came very easy because I was 259 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,520 already someone who thought visually and I thought, oh, I'm 260 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:00,800 just going to draw some pictures. 261 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,960 And that became kind of the, the phrase that I would that I was 262 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,560 most known for in my work. We would have a hard 263 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,360 conversation and I would say, let me draw you a picture. 264 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,440 And so I could, I could bring that. 265 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:19,520 So it really is, I think this, this can be this, this work that 266 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,480 we do. It can be whatever you want it 267 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,840 to be. But I don't think you recognize 268 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,280 that until you hear other people talking about the work that we 269 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,960 do and the different kinds of experiences that people bring to 270 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,160 the table. Yeah, absolutely right. 271 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,400 Yeah. So I think, you know, I think if 272 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,040 you speak to people that probably haven't done the BA 273 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,800 role or haven't worked too closely with some really good 274 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,040 BAS, you know, you might ask them what what is ABA, you know, 275 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,120 what is a business analyst? And, and you know, if you're 276 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,680 lucky, they might be able to tell you, they create 277 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,200 requirements. You know, they might not tell 278 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,640 you much else than that. You know, So it's sometimes it's 279 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,640 a good opportunity as well to, to explore, you know, what, what 280 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,480 others are doing and, and hear what they've got to say and what 281 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,400 techniques they use and how they get involved in things beyond 282 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,240 requirements. You know, and you know, I think, 283 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,280 I think we can obviously there's many textbooks that are 284 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,600 available that we can read. You know, I've certainly read a 285 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,560 few that tell you about the many things that we can get involved 286 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,560 in as BAS. But I think hearing from other 287 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,160 BAS and hearing what they've been working on, what techniques 288 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,000 they've been using, challenges that they've met and overcome 289 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,360 and how they do it, yeah, it's really, really helpful. 290 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,520 And, and probably the most helpful side of it is just that 291 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,800 reassurance, you know, that you're not doing something 292 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,480 crazy, that you're actually, you know, your techniques, your 293 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,960 approaches, that they they all work incorrectly. 294 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,840 And I think that's, you know, makes me think as well. 295 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,280 You mentioned something else earlier on in terms of, you 296 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,000 know, a lot of BAS, you know, probably not necessarily. 297 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,560 Yeah, I guess to communitive commutative in the wider 298 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,520 community, but maybe that's because we spend a lot of our 299 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,680 time just listening to other stakeholders. 300 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,800 You know, I think like that's almost like the most important 301 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,599 thing that BA does is like listen to people, you know, 302 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,280 because and, and I don't know how much is weighted, but I 303 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,480 would imagine that good percentage of my time is 304 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,000 listening to stakeholders, what their situations are and what 305 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,839 they need. So it's quite it's quite 306 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,839 interesting to to be encouraging BAS to talk about things for 307 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,040 starters. But we're, we're probably, you 308 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:29,120 know, we can probably think of many perspectives that is worth 309 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,240 listening to and sharing and, and maybe think of a feature 310 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,680 scenarios where it's worth us sharing our insight as well. 311 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:43,240 Do you feel like doing this podcast has made you a better 312 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,480 interviewer? Had you had you thought about 313 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,640 yourself as a business analysis professional with interviewing 314 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:55,800 skills before you started? I was definitely aware of it 315 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,320 because I'm, I'm, I'm definitely aware, you know, I've been 316 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,480 fortunate enough to be developing and leading the 317 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,960 training at Capco for business analysis for, yeah, 10 plus 318 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,920 years. So I, I think I did a count the 319 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,520 other day. I think I probably had a 320 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,240 probably 1000 people at different points attend sessions 321 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,000 over them years of BA training. So you get to realise that 322 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,400 you're you're sort of speaking to a lot of people anyway. 323 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:28,080 So yeah, so, so that's that's sort of part of it is the sort 324 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,560 of share sharing and going beyond. 325 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,320 Sorry, Susan, what was the rest of your question? 326 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,680 Sorry, I drifted away there. Well, no, no. 327 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,480 And. And so my question was first, 328 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,920 did you think of yourself as an interviewer before? 329 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,880 You got. Started and do you do you think 330 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,680 it's improved your interviewing skills as a practitioner? 331 00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,080 Yeah. So, so, yeah, it's, it's 332 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,080 interesting because I think before doing this and you know, 333 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,200 in my early days, you know, you'd sort of approach a, an 334 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,600 interview, a stakeholder interview with some trepidation, 335 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,360 you know, because you haven't met a stakeholder before. 336 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:02,920 You don't know what they're like, you don't know if they're, 337 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,200 you know, how their time is available. 338 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,920 You don't necessarily have to adapt, know how to adapt your 339 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,040 style to suit their situation or to empathise with them or 340 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:12,520 connect with them in certain ways. 341 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,080 So that all takes a little bit of time to practice and you've 342 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,320 nothing else like hosting a podcast and interviewing people 343 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,240 is more practice with people that you genuinely didn't know 344 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,520 before. You know, So, so now I, there's 345 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,280 no, there's no real fear of, of actually going to meet new brand 346 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,520 new stakeholders in my day job or when I'm speaking to them in 347 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,800 any other BA sense. It's even giving me a little 348 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,400 confidence when I'm sort of, you know, in that conference 349 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,440 situation and you and you don't necessarily know anyone. 350 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,400 You want to walk up to people and introduce yourself. 351 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,880 It's it's helped me, you know, with that side. 352 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,080 I'm a little bit better now than I would have been in the past. 353 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:53,760 Yeah. So I think, I think just just 354 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,320 that little bit of practice, little bit of reassurance that 355 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:01,240 the things that we all do as BAS, yeah, is, is something we 356 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,880 can extend outside of our BA role, you know, and I think 357 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,680 there's probably a lot of things we do that we maybe don't 358 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,960 realise that there is a correlation to things we do 359 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,320 outside, you know, and communicating is obviously 360 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:13,960 something we do all the time. So. 361 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:19,600 Yeah, I mean, we all have families and we are consumers, 362 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,480 right. And so we have to talk to them 363 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,480 and ask questions and right, those are those are 364 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,560 opportunities for us to practice. 365 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,600 I think you you nailed it. You know, often when I talk with 366 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,800 other business analysis professionals and you know, 367 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,760 their concern is, you know, how am I interacting with 368 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,400 stakeholders? And I say, well, here's here's 369 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,000 the good and the bad news. Like you, you can go learn how 370 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,640 to be a better communicator. You can take a class on it. 371 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:54,000 However, you are only going to get better if you practice. 372 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,760 And so practice needs to just look like getting out there and 373 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,080 doing it because you'll find that you have your own style. 374 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,480 You will become a better listener and you'll be 375 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,640 practicing how to be more self aware, how to be more 376 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,320 empathetic. And you know, you don't just 377 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,960 practice the same thing over and over. 378 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,920 You then want to get more challenging situations because 379 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,320 you know, in order to be good at things like conflict or 380 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,200 facilitation, you've got to, you've got to find harder 381 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,840 challenges so that you can practice. 382 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,040 That's how you get good. You are just not going to show 383 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,520 up in front of a stakeholder with no experience, no practice, 384 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,960 and it's going to go great and lead into the parts that aren't 385 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,280 great. But I said, yeah, and there's, 386 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,200 you know, it, it just shows there's always opportunity to 387 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,280 practice things that you might not be so good at. 388 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,320 And you don't have to practice them in in a environment that 389 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,320 you might think is not appropriate, you know. 390 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,360 So as an example, you know, maybe there's some projects that 391 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:00,240 we work on where it's not really appropriate to practice every 392 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:01,800 little technique that we might want to use. 393 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,880 But I'd argue there's plenty of times when it is appropriate to 394 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,120 even even then do it. But if there, if it isn't 395 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,120 appropriate, sometimes use another take another 396 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,920 opportunity, you know, present to your BA community, you know, 397 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,720 speak to your your project team, you know, show something that 398 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,520 you've been working on. You know, there's, there's many 399 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,760 opportunities to do it. Yeah. 400 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:27,920 And I think that's that is something that I wish I had done 401 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:33,160 earlier in my career. I worked in an organization 402 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:39,080 where he where we had a very enterprising CIO and he wanted 403 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,440 us to do some things differently. 404 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,480 He called it agile, but he said I am not interested in any of 405 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,400 this agile stuff. Like agile means that we are 406 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,280 going to tailor for us the things that we do well and we're 407 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,120 going to improve the things that we don't do well. 408 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,600 We were doing some really novel things and we spent a lot of 409 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,680 time internally talking about those. 410 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,360 I wish I had been confident enough to, to take some of those 411 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:07,960 conversations and have those outside because I think it would 412 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,920 have given me confidence in a way that I didn't have 413 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,560 confidence as a as a young business analyst. 414 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,520 But also could have been as, as Stuart said, creating some of 415 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,520 that mulch for the community so that we could all grow together. 416 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,320 Because, you know, business analysis and agile is, is is 417 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,520 weird enough, but knowing that there's other people that are 418 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,320 experimenting with different ways of doing it, I think would 419 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,040 have been helpful if I'd felt confident enough to have that I. 420 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,400 Think so. And I think I think, you know, 421 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,560 building on that, I mean, you know, we we often sort of read 422 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,960 textbooks about, you know, BA approaches as an example, 423 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,520 events. We read textbooks about all 424 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,880 sorts of things, not just BA, of course, but if you think about 425 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,160 the BA perspective, you read about techniques, some of them 426 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,800 will just resonate with you straight away. 427 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,760 You don't really need much convincing, but there'll be 428 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,920 other techniques where you think, I'm just not sure that's 429 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,880 works for me. You know, I can't really see 430 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,480 myself using that. And sometimes, you know, if you 431 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,560 read or reread the, the, the section, you still can't be 432 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,480 convinced and it's still, the penny doesn't drop. 433 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,360 And I, and I found, you know, from talking to different people 434 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:22,800 about techniques that I, I just don't necessarily get on with or 435 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,680 have not been able to adopt. I hear the way they adopt them 436 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,400 and the value they get from it, It does make me think actually, 437 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,320 maybe maybe there's a different angle I can take on this, this 438 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,760 technique, you know? So I think what it demonstrates 439 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,320 therefore, is, you know, connecting with the community 440 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,960 inside and outside your organization for that matter, is 441 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,720 a way to maybe figure out some approaches that you might think 442 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,880 you're familiar with and you might think you've discounted. 443 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,680 But people are using those techniques successfully 444 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,840 somewhere else. So why not learn from how 445 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,400 they're doing it and what they're doing differently to 446 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,200 you? I, I think those are some of the 447 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,960 most interesting conversations that I've had with members of 448 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,160 the community, especially where they've taken a technique which 449 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,680 I think how, how on earth would you use that? 450 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,920 And they have found ways to modify it. 451 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,040 Either they've got a scenario that's really unusual or they've 452 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,360 said, well, we're going to take this thing, but but we're going 453 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:22,800 to change it a little bit and we're going to do it this way, 454 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,520 which I think a lot of folks in our community don't realize. 455 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,880 You do not have to practice these hundreds of techniques 456 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,320 exactly how they are documented. You can change them. 457 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,880 You can make them work for your scenario. 458 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,640 So experiment. That's it. 459 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,400 Yeah, Yeah, it's not certainly. I think some of the techniques I 460 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,440 I use, I mean it's still fundamentally based on proven 461 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,880 techniques. But you know, the, the 462 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,320 practicalities of being involved in workshops with many multiple 463 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,840 stakeholders or stakeholders that don't know what a process 464 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,200 flow looks like, for example, means that you have to adapt the 465 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,280 technique, you know, and then, and I think it was only only 466 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,600 this week I was talking about, you know, if I'm having a first 467 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,120 conversation with a stakeholder or stakeholders about their 468 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:13,080 process in a workshop, they don't always want to see me 469 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,160 moving swim lanes backwards and forwards and figuring out where 470 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,960 events are. And we know what, how to draw 471 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:24,480 that, that perfect BPMN model. So just using some of the key 472 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,000 objects and sort of using some overlays and using some layering 473 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,200 so I can go through that session as seamlessly as possible for 474 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,840 them and but hear what they've got to say and allow them to see 475 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,800 how their conversation inputs evolve in. 476 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,360 That's really, that's really useful, right? 477 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,120 And then I can take that away and turn it into a textbook 478 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,920 process flow as I need to. But you sort of learn, you know, 479 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,080 because I think part of it is you, you've got to adapt the 480 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,480 technique to your style and your situation. 481 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,640 That's right. Into your audience again, 482 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,360 because you're right, sometimes our audiences do not care about 483 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,440 the minutiae that we might get hung up on. 484 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,760 They just want something simple that is going to use their time 485 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,360 wisely that they can participate in and then you can go work your 486 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:19,440 magic behind the scenes. But making it available to them 487 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,280 so that they can quickly walk away is important. 488 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:28,160 And, and so I, you know, I like to think that when, you know, 489 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,960 when Scott Bennett and I started this podcast many years ago, one 490 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,080 of the things that we talked about was wanting to make 491 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:41,960 business analysis more accessible to different kinds of 492 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,640 business analysis professionals who might be at different levels 493 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,520 professionally or, you know, even students. 494 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,400 Because we, we thought one, it was really important for them to 495 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,240 hear these conversations, but we also thought we would, we were 496 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,480 modeling some things that might be important takeaways for them, 497 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,280 like interviewing, because interviews, you know, you and I 498 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,920 were talking today, I kind of came up with some questions, but 499 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,640 you know, we were just going to let this thing kind of go where 500 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,600 it was going to go. I think those are the best kinds 501 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,200 of interviews, not the ones where I say, hello, John, I am 502 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,040 here to ask you some questions. First question. 503 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,000 That's it. Yeah, I totally agree. 504 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,200 I mean, there's a bit as ABA, right? 505 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,640 I don't, I know I could theoretically have a pre 506 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,400 precancer of questions that I ask every stakeholder. 507 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,840 I think personally, if I did that, I would be so bored for 508 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,120 one thing. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't 509 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,440 get all the insight that I really need from the 510 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,000 stakeholders. So you know, it's better to 511 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,280 know, you know, know the objective of your conversations 512 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,640 and your interviews and your sessions and your analysis. 513 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,200 But you know, we've got to practice being adaptable to the 514 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,440 situation as well. And I think, you know, I think 515 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,800 communicating and connecting with the community, having these 516 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,600 interviews, you know, various other things, there's another 517 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,040 opportunity to practice being a little bit adaptable to the 518 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,640 situation and maybe learning a few techniques to help, you 519 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,920 know, I mean, think, think one thing with that springs to mind 520 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,040 is that there's a great BA technique called observation, 521 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,760 OK. And we use observation a lot of 522 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,360 time to understand how our stakeholders are working or some 523 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,400 of the challenges that they're having or what their processes 524 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,640 are. But you can apply observations 525 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,880 to improve yourself. You know, I, I, I definitely, 526 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,400 I've seen, I won't name him, but there's a, a colleague I've 527 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,880 worked with Capco for a while and he, he has a really great 528 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,160 way of like presenting certain information, right? 529 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,160 And then when he still stands up in front of a room, actually 530 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,520 quite good at commanding the room. 531 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,720 So, you know, when I observed that, I thought, actually, 532 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,360 that's much better than the way I do it. 533 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,720 So I've tried to make it sort of my own own little way. 534 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,840 I won't tell him because he'll only start recognizing that I've 535 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,000 been nicking some of these. But I think since that point, 536 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,480 you know, I think it's, it's something we should all do. 537 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,160 You know, we should recognize that if there's other BAS, other 538 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,800 stakeholders doing things that's slightly better than we are, 539 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,280 that could be more advantageous than what we're using, then it's 540 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,120 OK to to appropriate them. You're probably doing them a 541 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,560 great bit of credit by taking their approaches as well. 542 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,840 It's the highest form of flattery. 543 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,280 And, and again, because I, I think it is very easy to look at 544 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,440 somebody and think, oh, they're doing that really well. 545 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,600 If you think they're doing it well and you think that's that 546 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,040 is something that you could do, practice it, make it your own 547 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,160 because sometimes it might look differently when you do it. 548 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,800 You're right. Observation is key. 549 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,600 I had a guest a couple of weeks ago. 550 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,120 He actually would be great for your podcast too. 551 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,800 By the way, Elias Mockel, he is a trained opera singer, also an 552 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,640 educator. And he, you know, he talks about 553 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,000 the importance of recording yourself and watching yourself 554 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:05,360 because sometimes it it's you, you really can't see what you 555 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,640 bring to the table unless you watch yourself. 556 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,320 And I know a lot of people say I really don't want to watch 557 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,600 myself, but that's one of the ways that you get you get better 558 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,240 at this is. Just be prepared, you might 559 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:18,960 sound a little bit different than you think. 560 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,680 That's the old thing, right? Yeah. 561 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,080 Well, so Speaking of questions, you know, one of the things that 562 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,960 that awed me, by the way, when you reached out to invite me to 563 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,880 participate is you had, I think you had like the full list of 52 564 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,280 questions like you were, you were like one a week. 565 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,760 We're going to do one of these a week. 566 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,480 And they were just every every kind of question from I think 567 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,160 you were looking at techniques and the more like tactical side 568 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,800 of business analysis. And then you were looking at 569 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,320 more of the arts side. So I know I picked the business 570 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,800 analysis is what you make of it. I think Scott Bennett, who was a 571 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,760 woodworker, I think he he had maybe he picked the topic that 572 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,360 was, you know, how you bring your arts background or into 573 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,680 that. I'm just curious how, how do you 574 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,160 how do you select your questions, your focus for your? 575 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,200 Few, few different ways, basically, I mean, I, I've 576 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,600 always got this, this ever, ever evolving list of topics and, and 577 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,800 against it is, you know, the, the names of guests are either 578 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,200 I'm thinking they could be good for it, or they've volunteered 579 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,960 or they've, they've, they've, they've actually participated 580 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,240 like so and the, the titles themselves or the topics they 581 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,960 evolve. They come from many directions, 582 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,000 you know, so one of them is maybe a topic. 583 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,480 I think actually be quite interesting to get a perspective 584 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,440 on how people are doing that. Maybe because I'm doing 585 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,360 something similar myself or some of my team and sort of doing 586 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,200 something similar. So one, use the, the the podcast 587 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,480 as an opportunity to see how others do things, right. 588 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:02,080 So for example, you know, we, we think about the, the trio of 589 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,720 business architecture, business analysis and process a Capco, 590 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,680 right? So, so we have a great idea of 591 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,000 how we do things internally, you know, but by speaking about that 592 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,520 topic, or at least maybe those three separate topics with 593 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,320 people, that's a good way for me to get a bit of insight into, 594 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,320 you know, how the others are approaching it or what they see 595 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,080 valuable in those, those three things. 596 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,600 As an example, it might be that I've watched a podcast or we've 597 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,640 talked in the podcast about a topic. 598 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,440 You know, it might be that I've read a book. 599 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,520 It might be that I've attended a conference and there's an 600 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,360 interesting topic that even sometimes just walking up the 601 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,480 road, I think weirdly, it's just an idea just crops in and then 602 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,160 I'll send this is a technique for everyone. 603 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,000 I, I, if I've got ideas, I've got a terrible memory. 604 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,280 So I will e-mail myself with the idea so that when I come back to 605 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,800 my desk, I will see that e-mail from me. 606 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,800 And I know that I can lift that in and put it somewhere where 607 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,840 I'll remember it, you know, so, so it comes from a variety of 608 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,000 places. And, and actually probably the 609 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,440 last area that I had to think about as well is that some of my 610 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,040 guests, when I, when I reach out to them, you know, I'll say that 611 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,880 they have got a whole bunch of topics in one point. 612 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,080 Feel free to pick those that might be interesting to you, but 613 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,840 there's something else you'd rather talk about then let me 614 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,199 know. And, and so, so there's a lot of 615 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,400 topics that have come the courtesy of, of guests that have 616 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,560 suggested them or in books they're writing as well. 617 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:30,800 So nothing's particularly off table. 618 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,960 I think we did have a, we had a session on BA and the arts 619 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,199 because there was a few people talking about that correlation. 620 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:39,280 I thought it was quite interesting. 621 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,000 And I can't remember exactly who was on that call, but I think 622 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,360 Donovan was there. I remember. 623 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,320 And in fact, I think he worked at the an arts college or 624 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,360 university arts or Academy of Arts some some along those 625 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,040 lines. So be quite interesting to hear 626 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,360 how how fitness like if you're working in an artistic 627 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,400 organization, is the is the analysis equally artistic? 628 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,000 You know, unless that's a conversation I also have 629 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,360 sometimes with others in just the conference. 630 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,880 You know, as well. You you speak to people in 631 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,240 different organizations. And I think there was one 632 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,320 recently I bumped in summary was the Royal Opera House in in 633 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,880 London. And I thought, that's amazing, 634 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,640 right? That'd be so interesting to see 635 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,720 what that's like. So I think I had one. 636 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:27,960 I think I have just found two guests for you, your your 637 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,800 contact at the Opera House and the speaker who is an opera 638 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,800 singer. Wouldn't that be fascinating? 639 00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:36,640 That would be pretty amazing, yeah. 640 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:37,760 Here we go. I'm gonna. 641 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:38,760 I'll. I'll reach. 642 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:45,080 Out I'll make a. Connection so well let's see I I 643 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,880 tell you what we've got a couple of questions or maybe just some 644 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,680 observations here I'm going to pop those in really quickly so 645 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,600 we've got this question tailoring techniques from books 646 00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:01,680 is funnier than adopting as they are yeah is is funnier or is is 647 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,120 it just more fun it might be more fun and I think more 648 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,520 appropriate. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think, you 649 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,120 know, I always like to learn the technique from a textbook 650 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,520 perspective first because I feel like then I'm in a perspective 651 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,200 where I can appreciate the value of it as perhaps the author had 652 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,520 intended or the, you know, person who creates it. 653 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,640 I think then, you know, I think about, does it work for me? 654 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,920 And if not, can I tweak it Sometimes, like that realization 655 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,120 doesn't come for for months or even years in some cases, You 656 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,240 know something you think that's good, but I could just do this a 657 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,120 little bit better for me and you tweak it. 658 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,400 Yeah. And, and sometimes the 659 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,240 inspiration has to hit you or other conversations. 660 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,240 That's why I think conversations within our community is so 661 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,040 important. This is a people business that 662 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,800 we're in. There is not a a direct set of 663 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,640 steps that results in success. It has to be tailored all along 664 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,800 the way. It it is influenced heavily by 665 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,040 the people that we are working with. 666 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,160 So. Yeah, on my point. 667 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,760 I mean, if we if on our day-to-day, you know, our 668 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,840 outputs are influenced by the stakeholders we work with, 669 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,880 sometimes as BAS we can forget to look after ourselves. 670 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,040 So you can actually improve your own practices and your own way 671 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,680 of working by observing others and what others do and what 672 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,840 others produce and making that part of what you're doing as 673 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,600 well. So I think it's pretty helpful 674 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,920 for BAS to be a bit selfish at times and take a little bit to 675 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,560 themselves, but use the techniques they've learned and 676 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:33,920 turn them on on their self anyway. 677 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,600 I say that all the time, use business analysis in your career 678 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:44,160 development like that's you've got the skills to know how to 679 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,680 assess your performance, plan your development. 680 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,040 You've got those skills. It's called business analysis. 681 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,920 Just apply it. And in fact, you can use 682 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,760 business analysis for a lot of things outside of work. 683 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,360 All right, so let's see. Kamani has our next comment. 684 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,920 Be adaptable, but the key is to be your authentic self and be 685 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,800 curious. And I think sometimes we forget 686 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:12,320 that the authentic self is the important part of what makes 687 00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:19,400 these conversations last. I mean, beyond just that moment 688 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,760 that we have the conversation with someone, being authentic, 689 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:29,000 being, you know, listening and and giving our opinion, I think 690 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,560 is is key to the work that we do. 691 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,360 Yeah, I agree. I mean, people mention like 692 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,280 imposter syndrome as something that relates to when you're in 693 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,760 an environment that you're not familiar with or you think that 694 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,720 you're not good enough to be in that environment. 695 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:46,120 If you're not being yourself, then you're always suffering 696 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,080 imposter syndrome. Yes. 697 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,240 What a great way to say that, right? 698 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,520 Yeah, what a great way to say that. 699 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,240 All right. And then this, this is just a 700 00:38:57,240 --> 00:39:00,800 shout out to both of us. Business Analysis Live and BA 701 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,360 Insights are the two podcast where I learned what the 702 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,400 community is talking about. Thank you. 703 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,560 I should say Nuno has been a guest a few times. 704 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:09,800 What a great guest is as you are. 705 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,640 All right, but you did not ask him to say that I. 706 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,200 Didn't ask Nina, but he is that. Yeah. 707 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:20,480 Thanks, Nina. So, you know, today's topic was 708 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,000 conversations that shape the business analysis community. 709 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,640 But but I wonder if for you, the conversations you're having, do 710 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,000 you feel like they're shaping the community or do you feel 711 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,000 like they're reflecting our community? 712 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,280 I feel like maybe it's a bit of both because I think maybe and 713 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,440 it's I guess what comes first chicken and egg type 714 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,520 conversation. Like some of the conversation we 715 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,840 have, you know, some obvious topics, you know, things like AI 716 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,600 seem to be a conversation that we have quite a lot with the 717 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:56,080 community. And yeah, AI is shaping the 718 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,400 community, but conversations about AI is shaping the 719 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,680 community as well, of course. And I think conversations about 720 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:09,760 AI is a good way of shaping what we do as AI, you know, comes in 721 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,520 more and more, you know, I think we can, I've certainly heard 722 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,440 from far better speakers than me on the topic. 723 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:21,200 But you know, about how how AI is going to, you know, is here, 724 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:21,840 right? So. 725 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,240 So, you know, we don't want to just be a passive victim of AI, 726 00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,800 but rather we can be on the front foot and think about how 727 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,600 we're going to embrace it, how we're going to use it, how we 728 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,040 can do all the good things we do as BAS. 729 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,840 But all went it with AI would be a good example. 730 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,000 It's probably Kitty Hung actually is probably the person 731 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,400 that I'm referring to as I heard that because she I know I listen 732 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,040 to quite a lot that she has to say on the on the topic of AI. 733 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,120 And I think we forget all of these skills and communication 734 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,640 that we have as business analysis professionals in a lot 735 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:03,480 of ways, I think makes us really unique users of AI because if we 736 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,520 approach AI like we do our stakeholders in the way that we 737 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,920 talk to them and we interview them like we can apply all of 738 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,600 those skills to AI. In fact, I've had another guest 739 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,880 on here and we talked about using those interviewing 740 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,640 techniques as as part of your prompting skills. 741 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,520 I wouldn't just ask you a question and go, OK, thanks for 742 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:25,600 that answer. Moving on. 743 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,880 Right. I might follow up on your 744 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,160 question. We can use that with AI too. 745 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,520 So it's not as if we have to go learn a different skill set. 746 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,040 We have that skill set. We just have to believe that we 747 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,600 can use it in this context. That's right. 748 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,240 And then I think that the BA techniques that we, we develop, 749 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,680 I think are probably more important when I in the world of 750 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,520 AI because it's, you know, there's so much more 751 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,360 information, you know, some of it not always accurate, you 752 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,400 know, so we've got to find really effective ways to 753 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,280 consume, validate, structure that data, question and 754 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,320 challenge that data, present it back in a way that people can 755 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,040 determine whether it's right or wrong, you know, you know, and, 756 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,760 and also just just trying to leverage it as well as a, you 757 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,760 know, because, you know, if we're fighting against AI and 758 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,680 trying to, trying to take notes quicker than AI can, we're 759 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:26,680 probably going to fail, right? If we can use the, the, the, the 760 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,280 qualities that AI brings to take away some of the admin that we 761 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,960 have, then it gives us time to focus on the real quality, you 762 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,160 know, which is speaking to stakeholders, really learning 763 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,760 what they've got to, to what their problems are, really 764 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,960 speaking and listening to them. You know, I think that that is 765 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,600 something to consider at least. And, and it's reassuring, you 766 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,240 know, going back to your question, that that as well as 767 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,400 AI, there's a lot of conversation about all those 768 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,640 other things that we do as well. You know, I think even even 769 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,560 things that we can sometimes forget about sometimes as ABA, 770 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,160 because maybe our current project doesn't necessarily 771 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,040 allow us to focus on every technique at a given point. 772 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,000 Because talking to others stakeholders, other BAS, you 773 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,840 realise that they're still using the techniques to great effect. 774 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,400 So you can keep them in your toolkit. 775 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,280 So when you're on a different project, you can refer back to 776 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,600 them again with the the continued confidence that 777 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:23,880 they're still the right approaches. 778 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,360 Yes, Yep, exactly. All right. 779 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,120 Well, we are almost at the end of our time, but I've got one 780 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,120 more question for you. And this is because I have an 781 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,960 inquiring mind. I've watched a number of your 782 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,840 podcast. I've been on your podcast. 783 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,840 One thing that I noticed is that you never introduce yourself. 784 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:48,360 Is that by design? It is really I I just assumed 785 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,720 that that after so many. You figure people just know me. 786 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,400 Well, it's not it's less about that. 787 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,840 I think people just get bored of listening to me introduce 788 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,440 myself. So I think that if they were if, 789 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,960 if people, I mean, there's plenty of ways to find who I 790 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,560 have like because my name is there. 791 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,400 I think the there's an intro video as well that people that I 792 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:10,920 do introduce myself to, I believe. 793 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,680 But no, I guess primarily maybe it's he goes down. 794 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,520 So I'm genuinely more interested in the guests than myself. 795 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,520 So you're just. Moving the conversation on it's 796 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:27,040 not about me, it's about them. That's it, you know, Although to 797 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,280 think about if I had introduced myself for the like the 150 798 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,480 sessions, I think I'd be amazing. 799 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,560 An elevated pitch in that respect. 800 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,000 You know, I think I'm decent, but I think I'd be amazing. 801 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,280 Something to think about. You could even have like a fun 802 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,440 hook at the beginning. There we go. 803 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,800 Yeah, could do. There's, there's a probably ways 804 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,400 to evolve it anyway and, and maybe steal a couple of your 805 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,520 approaches from this podcast season as well. 806 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,680 Yeah, there you go. I will say you've got a yeah. 807 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,600 Before you know, the light comes on and we go live. 808 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,480 I do think, OK, how am I going to mix it up this time? 809 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,760 Maybe AI could help, who knows? Who knows? 810 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:13,120 Anyway, All right, well, thank you so much for being my guest 811 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:14,240 today. Pleasure. 812 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,200 How nice is to not have to prepare questions? 813 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,000 Right, and just show up and chat and that's, you know, that's 814 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,000 really what I enjoy doing. I also enjoy the part before we 815 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,760 turn the cameras on where I get to know a little bit more about 816 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,680 you. Like that also could be that 817 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,000 might be like an after hours kind of a thing. 818 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,680 That was a great conversation. We share some comedy influences. 819 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,520 Yeah. So excited to learn that about 820 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:42,080 you. All right. 821 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,400 Well, John, thank you again for joining me today. 822 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,720 I look forward to seeing you on your next episode of BA 823 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,160 Insights. Take care. 824 00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:59,480 All right? And that is it for today's 825 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,720 session. Are you thinking about 826 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:05,280 conversations that maybe you could start having with people 827 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,880 in your network? Maybe you're thinking about even 828 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,440 more broadly? Where are conversations with 829 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,400 other kinds of communities where you can learn and practice? 830 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,320 When I see you in two weeks, we're going to be talking with 831 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:25,320 someone who makes giving and receiving feedback joyous. 832 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,400 And I can't wait for you to meet him. 833 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,000 So two weeks from today, you will get to meet him too. 834 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,520 We'll see you then. Thanks. 835 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,520 Bye, bye. If you're hearing this, you made 836 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,800 it to the end of the episode. Thanks for listening. 837 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,240 Do you have any questions, comments or thoughts about 838 00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:42,120 today's topic? We'd love to hear them. 839 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,560 Drop us a review or leave a note in the comments. 840 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,760 Then like, subscribe or share this podcast if you like what 841 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,640 you heard. And hey, you can help us shape 842 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,000 future episodes. What do you want to know more 843 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,160 about? Send us an e-mail at Live at 844 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,000 ba.org with your ideas. See you again on our next 845 00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:58,520 episode.