It's easy to get into the mindset of they hate change,
they don't want to change, and really it's a little deeper than
that. People are trying to protect
what they see as their security and what they do every day.
Welcome to Business Analysis Live.
I'm your host, Susan Moore, community engagement manager
with the International Institute of Business Analysis.
I explore topics with industry guests about the work of
business analysis professionals and how their work helps
organizations achieve better outcomes.
And Yep, we take your questions too.
Thanks for listening. Let's get started.
One of the things that we do the most of it seems is we get
involved in projects related to process or maybe that is part of
our analysis, understanding how things work in our organization.
And sometimes, though we are well meaning, sometimes we make
some mistakes when we are attempting to help understand
process or change process. And those things can work
against us. They can maybe help distract
from the results that we're trying to get or can create
resistance in the changes that we need to make.
Today I am really pleased to be joined by two guests who work as
a team and they talk about this topic.
In fact, they've got a tutorial coming up at our BBC conference
that's happening in a couple of weeks.
And I think that they probably know the been there, done that,
they've got the T-shirt. And so I am happy to bring to
the stage today Tawana Gardner and Julia Benford.
Hello. Hello.
Well it's great to see you guys.
I know we chatted what seems like ages ago and we were like,
April, Oh my gosh, that's such a long way away.
And it is now April and I'm going to see you in person in
just a couple of weeks at BBC in Toronto.
Before we dive into this topic today, which is let's pop this
up so everybody can see the process improvement mistakes
that analysts make. The first thing I would like to
do is to have you guys introduce yourselves.
So how about Tawana? I'm going to give you the stage.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
I am a lean 6 Sigma master black belt.
I have been working in continuous improvement.
I've been a project manager, business architect, business
analyst for over 20 years. I started when I was 9.
But I'm most passionate about training greenbelts and
mentoring them and basically helping people to better
understand their processes so that they can fix them.
I know that when we were talking about your headline, So what
shows up under your name, you were like, can I put?
I see, what did you say? I see problems.
Yes, yes.
Yes, yeah, it is. It is Now Julia, you're next.
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Sure. So good morning.
My name is Julia Binford. I am currently the Merchandising
Solutions Manager for Coca-Cola Florida.
I have been in the continuous improvement and lean space for
about 8 years now. And my passion is people.
And so I'm also a lean 6 Sigma black belt.
And I find that when you fix the problems that Tawana can see,
there are interactions from your people.
And so we work together, as you said earlier, to tie those two
things together and see how we can help folks optimize their
processes. I love that because I don't
think you could come at process change by just looking at the
what people are doing and you you've got to tie it to the
people that are part of that process.
So maybe a Full disclosure for our audience today, this talk.
So you you're going to be doing a tutorial of Bbci mentioned
that and it is on, I'll call it a framework.
I don't know if that's really what it is, but it's some
lessons that you've learned. And so you're teaching from that
perspective. But what I found really
interesting when we met was the stories that you were telling me
about how you got to this particular talk.
And so really we'll focus on some of that background because
I think some of the things that you learned were helpful in
getting you to pivot to see things from a different
perspective. So all right, so let's talk a
little bit about that. So you both work for an
organization where you guys have the opportunity to kind of see
those problems and you're able to initiate some of those
changes on your own. I think that was how you
described the work. So let's talk a little bit about
that. When you talked with those teams
about their processes, 1, you said, well, yeah, we would bring
it up that there was a problem and they knew that it needed to
be fixed, but they were resistant to making those
changes, which I'm wondering if that was surprising to you, that
they knew they needed to be fixed, but they didn't.
They weren't capable of making those changes.
What do you think it was that was fueling their resistance?
Who would like to start? Maybe since it's a people
problem. Julia, why don't you start?
Sure. So what I'll say first is that I
think that resistance isn't necessarily always about the
actual change for people. A lot of times it's about
protecting what they perceive is already working.
And so a lot of times the fear of disruption because we've
always done it this way, or just being disconnected from what the
problem is perceived to be because from where you're
sitting, it's working a lot of times can help form that
resistance to what the change is.
And in a lot of instances, people aren't really sure what
the change is going to be, right?
Maybe understand that change is going to affect them or what's
in it for them, the benefit of said change.
And so I think it's easy to get into the mindset of, you know,
they hate change. They don't want to change.
And really it's a little deeper than that.
People are trying to protect what they see as their security
and what they do every day. With that, yeah.
So they're kind of paralyzed by, we know something needs to
change, but it could mean it some level of insecurity or
discomfort. Right.
Change is theory. And So what does that mean for
me and what does that mean for you?
And if I'm not going to be doing it like I'm doing it today, then
what does that mean it's going to happen tomorrow?
And that can be intimidating sometimes.
I think you also mentioned there that sometimes they don't know
what the solution is, and so that was another piece of that.
I know it needs to change, but I don't.
Either I don't know what that change needs to be, or I'm kind
of powerless to make that. I think that communication is
key all the way down the ladder of whatever the change from the
person that's implementing it to the person that's actually going
to have to perform said change. Being able to communicate that
is super important. Yeah.
So, Tawana, what do you think? What were you seeing with that
resistance? So I agree with what Julia is
saying. And there's also a flip side to
it because yes, people are working within those confines of
whatever their process is. So when you're on the outside
looking in, you're like, oh, you could do this better, or maybe
we should do this way, or maybe we could automate that.
But from the inside, you know, that's their everyday process.
They live it, they walk it, they breathe it.
They know it better than anyone else.
And so they may not see it as a problem.
And so when you go to them to start talking about process
improvement or continuous improvement, it's like what's
broken? What did I do wrong?
So sometimes that can be a little bit of the pushback as
well. So you really have to, you know,
talk to your stakeholders and get a better understanding of do
you think there's a problem? And so, and then if not, then
you know, you can talk to data and things like that or SOPSOPS
or SL as any or just anything that's data-driven to, well,
could this be a problem if they don't think there's one, but
usually they'll tell you what the problems are.
Oh, so that's, yeah, that's good.
How important is it for you guys as part of that team that's
going to help them facilitate that change?
How important is it for you guys to name that resistance, either
to name it for your purposes or to name it for whatever the
managers, the employees? I have never named the
resistance. OK.
And. And my, it's you need it and
figure out how do we get through it?
How do we address it? Because sometimes, you know,
like Julie was saying it, a lot of times it is fear.
Sometimes they don't realize there's a problem and they're
like, you're blaming me and it's not, no, we're not blaming you.
It's not we. But we do want to help you.
How can we make it more efficient?
You have to make it more about them a a wiffum situation.
Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that
you've got to be like those emotional intelligence, empathy,
those kinds of skills. It sounds like when you start
that work, those skills are like essential for going in.
Absolutely. Like once I had, I was hosting a
session and there was a gentleman in the room and he
wouldn't say anything. He was the expert.
This is the guy that was on the line.
He was the expert. And he didn't say anything the
whole meeting. And I was trying to ask him,
he's like, well, the engineers, you know, they're the experts,
they know. And so after the meeting, I went
and talked to him, and I said, is there a reason why were you
uncomfortable speaking up in the meeting?
And so he said, well, you know, I'm old.
I've been here forever. Nobody wants to hear what I have
to say. And I was like, I do.
I was like, you have all the answers.
And I said, you know, when you say you've been here a long
time, that's absolutely right. That makes you an expert in the
room, and we need to hear your voice.
You know where the problems are. You know what's hidden in the
dark, the skeletons in the closet.
And we're just trying to find them, identify them so we can
fix them. So it sounds like that actually
that kind of offline conversation was really
essential in unlocking a good amount of expertise.
So it sounds like also maybe part of the things that you guys
were learning were about who has the expertise.
Is that also maybe a thing that gets missed when we're thinking
about process changes? Who those experts?
For sure. And you almost, not almost, you
absolutely always need those people.
I think at the beginning of Tawana's sentence, she said they
want to tell you the problems, right?
And so a lot of times it's going into the room and letting them
get those issues off of their chest.
You're almost instantly going to figure out who the subject
matter expert is by the problems that are coming out from the
team. And being able to provide the
space for them to get those things off of their chest kind
of flips the environment in a way where now you can kind of
come in and talk about, all right, well, here's what the
data says and this is how it matches up with what you're
saying. And so to Tolana's point, they
want to be transparent with you and tell you the problems.
And when they're telling you the problems and you can match them
up to the data, you're almost instantly going to get to the
bottom of who this me is a subject matter expert, even if
that's something that's not clear in the beginning of the
conversation. Yeah, so I can, yeah, because
it's not just randomly. We need to fix this process all
hands on deck. And also, I would think that
finding who the subject matter experts are gives you the
opportunity to make some allies, maybe help to elevate some folks
whose knowledge maybe doesn't always get highlighted for
whatever reason. Yes, allies, yes.
It depends. We love that answer here.
Sometimes it could be again with your stakeholders, this has to
do with stakeholder engagement. Do you even want to be engaged?
And it goes back to do you see a problem?
Because sometimes the people that don't see a problem, they
don't want to fix it. Or if it's something that they
own, it's their baby and they don't want anybody calling their
baby ugly. And so you have to be careful
and how you approach, but they are probably not going to be
your ally until they realize I need to fix something.
And so you want to talk to the people who are your allies.
But if you have the person in the room who's not wanting to
change, fix their, you know, sitting in the corner, you know,
with their arms folded, I call them the bully in the room.
That's the person you need to get in your corner.
That's the person you need to have those sideline
conversations with. I noticed you weren't engaged.
Can you do you not see that there's an issue or, or you just
really want to get to the bottom of why they feel the way that
they do so that you can overcome it?
Because at that point, they'll become your biggest cheerleader.
If you can get them on your side, they will become.
And also you have to think about groupthink is real.
So if you have that person in the room with a strong
personality who everybody looks up to, that's going, we don't
need to do that. They're going to be other people
in the room like, well, I don't know, maybe we don't.
And so once you get the person going, yeah, we do need to fix
it. We need to look at it.
Maybe this is an issue that also can change the room, the feeling
in room and it makes your job easier when you come in to help
with the change. Yeah, that I like that you're
that we're talking about this one because I think sometimes we
have this natural fear of approaching folks like that.
If somebody is sitting at the back of the room not wanting to
engage, that is a lot of negative energy.
But you're right, there are also people that are looking to that
person for how should I be behaving in this moment when
we're changing? Should I be looking at this
person as Nope, no problem, nothing to do here, or should I
be looking someplace else? So getting the bully in the room
on your side can be a win to just help morale, help people
get interested in being part of the solution.
What do you think, Julia? I agree.
I think that what Tawana's saying crosses over into
influence those people that are in that room that are.
Able to affect. The mood definitely have
influence over the way the rest of the room feels and how
they're willing to cooperate. And so sometimes you may be in a
space where you're trying to fix something and you have the fix
and the solution, and it may be something that's extremely
simple, but it's just not getting executed because folks
don't see the value. And that person really can swing
the room in that regard. Yeah, and I like that idea of
trying to make friends with them.
I literally was just having this conversation with my mom last
night that one of the things that I've, as I became a more
experienced analyst for me, I wanted to work with the people
that were the most difficult because these skills that you
guys are talking about, they are not.
You can't go take a, you know, a boot camp and learn these skills
like you have to practice them. You have to seek out these
situations. And that doesn't mean that it'll
be perfect every time, but you've got to figure out your
style and you've got to see the success and the value in.
Yes, boot camp will be real world.
I started work in an aerospace heavy industrial environment
with a union, very strong union environment.
So that helped me a lot. It was actually a great place.
I don't, you know, want to anything native there.
It was a great place. The people were wonderful, but
also people, you know, you have to treat people the way you want
to be treated. And so I would go in and I was
fine. And some of them are like, oh,
they're just nice to you because you're a girl.
I didn't talk down to them. I was nice to them.
I told them what I was doing. I was very open and they in
exchange they were open with me. So you just have to Empathy
helps a lot. Yeah.
And it's all about the approach as well.
Now let's dive in a little bit because you both have that Lean
6 Sigma background. How much when you have been
working on process improvement, how much have you utilized from
that Lean 6 Sigma background? And did you find that people
jumped on board or did that intimidate people?
What do you mean? Well, so if you were so you were
bringing your Lean 6 Sigma knowledge and skills as you guys
were working through process improvement, how much did that
become a framework for the changes that you were making?
So you mean when we go into the room to work with people that
OK? The thing is, at least for me, I
don't walk in the room like I'm the expert.
I'm an expert in, again, finding issues and helping people to
work through them, fixing processes.
And I used to call myself the Process Whisperer.
Then I met someone who called himself the Process Whisperer.
But. You can call yourself that too.
The people in the room are the true experts.
I'm just here because I know and understand a framework that I
can help you get from point A to point B and we can talk about
how do we change these process steps?
How do we make things more efficient?
How do we save money, return on investment?
That's what I'm an expert in, not necessarily your process.
So that's, you know, if you don't go in as I know
everything, then usually people are pretty open.
Yeah, and that's an important distinction.
I'm here because I understand how to change.
I I'm not here because I'm an expert in yeah, what you do.
What do you think, Julia? You are also a lean 6 signal.
I agree with Tawana. In a lot of situations where
we're working together, a lot of the framework that happens
between us behind closed doors, if you will, people, I think it
is easy to get overwhelmed when you start breaking out.
You know, a fish bone diagram, some statistics.
Let's do a Kaiser like people are kind of like, well, man, you
told me that you were going to save me hours of doing this job.
I had to create a chart and. Now I have to learn a whole new
language. What is it?
Those actual frameworks happen behind the scenes.
So Tawana and I are working together to figure out how we
can help implement XYZ solution. And then for the person that is
going to be a part of that change, continuous improvement
is a behavior, right? And so maybe it's us giving them
a very simplified version of how we make this cyclical.
So like APDCA, right, something that's easy to flow along with.
But I do not recommend. I do not recommend bombarding
people with actual domaic tools. Yeah.
I mean, I could see where that would be a little off putting,
right, Especially because you guys are, you are basically
consultants, but you were working within your
organization. So you're not somebody hired
from outside. So you are part of the
organization in which you work. You just have a.
Consultative mindset, as it were.
But that doesn't mean or that does mean that you bring a lot
of skills with you. And so, you know, I could see
where if you started using a bunch of fancy words that
weren't already part of the terminology that people in the
room might be suspicious of, oh, what is she here to do?
You lose the audience immediately, they are
uninterested and now we haven't fixed anything.
Right now you've actually built another barrier or another
resistance to change. Now I'm not going to do it
because I don't even know they're here to change stuff and
I don't even know what they're talking about.
Right. Yeah, exactly.
So, you know, that might be. I know that as business analysis
professionals, we get really, we nerd out to like these tools and
techniques and all the things that we do, but maybe outside of
our sphere, not everybody is as excited about those things.
So I think that's, you know, maybe that's an important thing
that you've learned. It's like we can keep the
tactics to ourselves, but we can present them in a way that's
helpful. Absolutely, yes.
And also business analysts are usually focused on the what
they're moving the organization from point A to point B.
What does the organization need now?
Whereas continuous improvement would be more the how so you
know more process related and so the tools will look different,
but I feel like the approach is very similar.
OK. Yeah.
All right. So let's talk about the culture,
because I think that's another piece that can sometimes create
barriers or that we can get as business analysis professionals,
we can get ourselves kind of mired in how does the culture of
an organization accelerate or slow down those continuous
improvement efforts and what do you do about it when that
happens? So I'm actually working on a
book that enjoy OK. Are we hearing it first here?
Did is this an experience? You are hearing?
It first. It'll be out soon.
I love it. Culture is a large change
initiatives, any change initiative because a lot of
times what I've found in my experience, a lot of
organizations push out change. Hey, we want to do this big
thing, but they don't have the support and infrastructure to
move it from idea to execution and how culture fits.
A lot of times that resistance comes from not having that
structure in place and things being, I'll say past trauma or
PTSD from past transformation initiative.
That's where a lot of the resistance come from.
Oh, last time we did this, Oh, we did this before.
Oh, this didn't work. And this because what happened
was something didn't work or finally they finally got it
moving, but probably not in the direction it was supposed to go.
And people remember that it was. That's painful.
And so I think that that's where a lot of it comes from because
the culture is usually that leadership pushes something down
and you're just supposed to go execute, but nothing happens in
the middle. The planning.
What is this going to look like? Is there a road map?
Do we? All need to do that.
Yeah, that's. Where the yeah, not having the
correct things in place can really 'cause PTSD and it just
gets worse as years go on. Yeah, if not addressed.
Yeah, Julia. I think you're spot on.
I think you're spot on with the PTSD when we're talking about
the when we're talking about leadership, you know, trying to
implement a change and pushing it down from the top.
And then the folks that are maybe on the front line, not
necessarily understanding where it's coming from or why it's
coming from, what why it's coming.
We're the middle, we are the middle.
So we're the people that are in there, that empathy, that
communication, that trying to get folks on board who are your
sneeze, getting everybody together.
We are the middle. That kind of brings that message
from the top to whoever needs to receive it.
And so I think we are the soothers and the people person I
said, but we're the soothers, right, of that PTSD and making
sure that people do trust you and people are going to listen
to you when you come and say that you're going to fix the
problem because you actually helped me fix this problem last
time. So, you know, your fifth time
talking to this guy should be a little easier than your first
time because you built the rapport and you are the middle.
You're helping everybody figure out how we actually make it
happen. And, you know, I don't think
that you are being over the top when you call this trauma
because organizations that do a lot of change and they don't do
it well, people get, I mean, it really can feel like trauma when
everything around you is changing and you have no control
over it. I mean, that seems like the
classic definition of trauma. And so people's emotions are
real. And I do think that's, you know,
some of the process improvement mistakes I think that I've seen
in my past is that we get really focused on, well, everybody will
want to do this. It's clear it'll make things
better. But it but we've got to stop
just going by what the data says or what the metrics are going to
say. We actually need to like, help
people through that because it will feel very out of their
control. Yes.
And like you, I like how you put it and when you don't address
the trauma, what happens? But The thing is, we just go on
to the next thing and keep piling on the trauma.
Yes, Yeah. Like it never happened.
Yes. Which is exactly.
Yeah, which just adds to it. Yeah, you're so right.
You're so. I've been in organizations where
I've seen transformation done well and not so well, and there
is a huge difference. And that's actually what I'm
kind of talking about in my book, because when you
communicate, when you walk people through the change, when
you're even at the very beginning, hey, this is coming.
This is where we are, this is where we want to be.
This is how we're going to get there.
That lets people know you've put thought into it.
The whole organization, not just the people in the room, not just
the people that are expected to do something.
Because what happens is if you have the people in the room and
as Julia said, the people in the middle, we know something's
coming. We know that they want to go to
this new thing, whatever it is. The people in the bottom may
not. So when you go start talking to
them, it's like, I don't know what that is.
What is it? Then you spend a lot of extra
time trying to bring them along, but they're never going to come
along because leadership hasn't really talked to them.
Yeah, and let's face it, if you're in the middle, if you're
leading people and even you don't know what's happening,
that energy carries. People know.
Absolutely. And a lot of spaces, I think,
and a lot of spaces that I've been in, these people have been
working here for 5/10/15 twenty years.
And so that layer of just always kind of feeling like it, I
didn't know about it or this is the first time that I'm hearing
about it. It is definitely real.
And getting those folks in there like Tawana saying giving them
the information they need is really key to getting them to
trust you so that you can get into the fix.
Yeah, Yep, exactly. One thing I would do when
working in process improvement, if I knew I was about to change
a process with a lot of operators or something like
that, I would have the plant manager or somebody from
leadership come in. I said I need you to come in.
Even if it's 5 minutes. Tell them what we're about to
do. Tell them why, please.
You know what, I wasn't mean about it.
But hey, and sometimes I'll be even right up the spiel for
them. Here's what we're trying to do.
And, you know, feel free to answer any questions.
And then, you know, they would go on.
And then that made it easier for me to start talking about, OK,
here's what we're going to do, here's the change, and let me
walk you through it. And so that helped a lot.
The importance of visible sponsorship and why that also is
an essential part of that. Even if you tell them what to
say, Even if you tell them where to show up, that's a really
important part of this because just like that bully in the
room, you got to get him on your side.
You, the leaders, have to look like they are on your side as
well. I think yes, we all need to look
like we are all marching in the same direction, yes.
Yeah, you're right, because that culture repeat where you've had
mistakes. And so if it doesn't look like
everyone's together, you can start to get into those patterns
of, Oh no, here it comes, another bad change.
Hey, so we've got some folks that are listening in and we're
going to take some questions. I'm just going to pop up our
little reminder here. We've got a couple of comments,
but if you've got questions for Tawana and Juliet, you can drop
that into our comments section because we want to know what do
you want to know about the what they've seen of process
improvement mistakes. So let's see, I think let me
just, I want to make sure that we talk a little bit about your
upcoming talk at BBC. It's more than a talk, it's a
tutorial. So it's like you're going to
give them a little bit more than just one hour's worth of your
tell us the name of your talk, of your tutorial.
Let's use the right word, Susan, and a little bit about what
they're going to get during that tutorial we would like to
answer. The title, so it's called pulse
check, a lean approach to process optimization.
And we call it pulse check because of the scenario we
decided to use. You have to come to the session
to see it. It's going to be, our sessions
are always fun. So I definitely say that, but
we're trying to give people a framework of how do you, well,
let me start here. I think the ideas, we didn't
talk about it like where did it come from?
A lot of times as we've been talking about process
improvement, it's pushed down, but realize that people that are
doing those processes, a lot of times they realize something is
wrong, but they're not always sure how to fix it.
Who do I go to? What do I do about it?
And so we were trying to give them a framework that they could
use on their own to identify issues, how to identify them,
what the issues look like, and symptoms.
And here's a few tools that you can use to fix those issues.
Yeah. I think you covered it pretty
well. There's some great scenarios and
great possible studies in the room.
I think we're going to have fun. We have a good time, but also
really give folks who are either, you know, maybe you're
really on the analytical, technical side, maybe you need
to figure out how to pull in that empathy, or maybe you're a
super people person and you need to figure out how to get a
little bit more specific. And so I think there's some
really good examples, some really good walkthroughs in the
session. Yeah, even just what we've
talked about today, I can see that you've got there's a little
something regardless of your business analysis preferences,
right. I'm a little more people person,
I'm a little more of a technical person.
So I think that's. Actually, so we do have a three
hour tutorial, but you just hit our, we actually have a one hour
session as well. I can't remember if it's, I
think it's weird, yes, but we're talking about the analyticals
versus the creatives and how people kind of deal with each
other. Because when you get in the
room, you get them both in the room.
It's usually like this. Yes.
I need requirements, but we want it fun, you know, fun is not a
requirement. Why can't this be the same?
I don't. Yeah.
We're definitely going to talk about that at the conference as
well. Excellent.
All right, so they've got 2 opportunities to see you.
So if you're coming to BBC, that's the conference in
Toronto, first year ever that it's in Toronto, you want to do
both of these things. So make sure that you carve that
out if you're attending the whole 3 days, four days I think
is the link for this. Okey Doke, let's take a look.
We do have some comments, maybe some questions.
I'll just pop some things and some of these came up a little
bit earlier, so we'll see if we can connect them back to what we
were talking about. So this is from Joe.
What if executives see it as a problem and you are the BA
assigned to fix it, even when others don't think it's a
problem? Yeah, when the guys at the top
think it's a problem and nobody else does.
There's a reason why they think it's a problem and it's a matter
of, you know, those pre conversations.
Well, let's talk about it. How did you see it as a problem?
What made you think it was a problem?
Or based on what you see today, what would you like to see to
get a better understandings? They might not be telling you or
giving you a good example of why they think it's a problem.
And so, but you have to lead them down that road so that you
can understand why they think it's a problem.
And then for the people that don't think it's a problem,
that's a whole other conversation, same conversation.
So I know you have this process. How's it going?
OK, are you having any issues? OK.
And then you what about such a, you know, whatever it is that
the executive is thinking, what about this, the executive may be
looking at AP and L they may be looking at data.
We have to understand what they're looking at, the reason
why they think it's a problem because the people who are doing
what it said process, they are looking at P&L, they aren't
looking at numbers, you know, So we have to understand where the
disconnect is and then address it.
Yeah, I think that is also an important thing.
Maybe sometimes we forget that somebody's assessment that it is
a problem doesn't mean it's everybody's assessment.
So digging in a little bit and understanding what why is it
that you're seeing this as a problem, but also making sure
that you get information from the other side and understanding
why they don't think it's a problem or what's, you know,
it's really important because sometimes I know if a leader
tells us to go fix something, we are inclined to go fix it.
But if not everybody agrees it's a problem, we've just created a
problem. Let's see.
All right, So here we've got another comment.
We are in the middle. And sometimes when we turn up,
they are finding about the. They're finding out about the
change for the first time. Yeah.
Yes, you are absolutely right, it happens all too often.
And that's why that, I think that's why that approach and
also that perception, right? When you're speaking to people
about what the problem is, it matters.
So if you're talking to someone in C-Suite, what you're going to
say is probably totally different from somebody who is
actually expected to go in and fix said problem.
And so oftentimes the latter ones are the ones that are
hearing of it for the first time and they're like, what and how
are we supposed to and what's going to happen?
And am I OK? Is my job OK, like I said.
And so their perception definitely feeds into the
communication and how we marry the two together.
And a lot of times I know for us when we're working, we are doing
them both simultaneously. So we're meeting with those
folks that are kind of bringing out that, you know, my P&L is
off, what's going on. We're marrying that with the
actual process and what's happening on the ground to
figure out how we connect the two, fix it.
Yeah. So thinking about our process
work as working from the outside in is kind of how I think about
what you're saying. Yeah, that can be really
important. Let's see.
Here's another one as to be a part of the analysis is to
assess the culture and maturity of an organization for each
initiative. I think you do.
And is there anything specific that you do around culture or is
that just something that you're kind of quietly assessing?
I would say probably quietly assessing because sometimes you
know you have different models, add car and things like that to
help you do some assessments. Here's where we are that kind of
thing. But I would say for continuous
improvement, it's usually kind of quiet because we aren't
looking at the culture as close. We're usually looking at is this
thing broken or not and how do I fix it and what are where my
stake, the culture will come out when you start talking to the
stakeholders and then you kind of address, which is why I say
we quietly accept. Yeah.
So it's a factor in the change, but not necessarily the thing
you came to change. Yeah, let's see.
All right, I think we do. Here's a question.
This is from Noor. How do we handle a situation
where the manager isn't comfortable making his support
visible in the room, though he is completely on our side do?
You ever have like it's on your side?
Yes, I was speaking. Of culture.
Oh. Yeah, I support you completely.
Yeah, I don't want anything to do with that.
Yeah, but don't fall on. Me two different statements and
and that is a the best. My guess would be the rest of
the organization is kind of like that as well.
Oh yeah, that's cool. And go the other way.
And so you, The thing is, you're going to have to find somebody
who is on your side, who is, if you need a leader in the room,
find one that is on your side and have them talk to the group.
Yeah, authentically on your side, not just saying not.
Yeah, because they'll turn on you real quick.
Yeah, right. And there, if that change
doesn't go well, oh, well, I don't know Tawana.
And that's Tawana and Julia. They did that.
Yeah. That's what you want to avoid.
All right, let's see. We've got another question here
from Masha. Thanks, Masha, what are some
examples of process improvements that you took up and the
mistakes that you have encountered?
So you've shared some of those, but is there any?
I know that there is, I know that there is probably
initiative that where you made what you might think of as like
the ultimate mistake. Have you had one of those
projects where you're like, let me tell you about this thing I
did? Think that one of my very first
projects, it's going to be ownership is the word for me and
making sure that we're aware of what their part is in this
improvement and the process overall that can quickly
snowball into it being you that owns it.
And now you're working inside of an improvement that you're
running essentially, you know, and chasing folks down and they
want you to do XYZ. And when reality they should be
owning those improvements themselves that getting them to
own them upfront, it gives them a sense of what this has to be,
right? Because it's mine.
I do baby. I adopted a baby, right?
And so getting them to own it quickly saves you down the line
from having to own it yourself, which is very once you own, it
is really hard to get rid of it. And that is one of the largest
first mistakes. Yeah, usually those early
mistakes are the ones that are the most long lasting I have
found in my career. Yeah.
All right, any anything for you to.
No, I think that's a really good one.
And I know exactly what she's talking about and I still call
her. That's hard because I think
sometimes we are made to feel like we should own these things.
But really we are there on behalf of a leader, a department
head of somebody. And so we've got to kind of see
our role in this as facilitating, not owning.
So let's see, how about one more question.
This is from Aaron. How can you decide what
processes are worth mapping and what isn't?
If it's a simple e-mail response, do you skip it, or do
you err on the side of mapping everything, no matter how small?
I think that when it comes to process mapping, why are you,
was there an issue you always want to start out with?
What are the boundaries of this process?
Is it just an e-mail? What was the problem?
Sounds like there was probably a larger problem.
Are you trying to automate something, an e-mail response?
So it I'm really not sure how. It's probably need a little bit
more context. Yeah.
But I think, but I think what you're saying is maybe what he's
intending to ask here. And sometimes when I've gone in
on a continuous improvement kind of a project, I think about the
processes and layers. And if I'm at a, you know, and
maybe this is true for you guys, but sometimes you're looking at
the bigger picture. And from a process mapping
perspective, it could be valuable to like do a big map of
everything, but probably once you get two or three layers down
into what people are doing, it may not be as valuable,
especially if it's not the thing that needs to be fixed or
automated. Yeah, I see now.
So we're, if we're talking about, I was thinking this way
across the process, but if you're thinking in terms of
10,000 foot or 100, it depends on who's in the room.
It depends on what you're looking for.
If sending an e-mail is a part of that process, then you're
probably further down then as opposed to being up here, and
you probably do need to map it. You know, the receptionist sends
e-mail or something like that, but it's because it still goes
back to what you're mapping. But that e-mail is also a manual
step that they may not need to do.
And it could boil down to how many emails are they sending?
Do they have to send all of these emails?
Is it just because somebody requested it or is it actually
needed? Because sometimes people ask for
reports that they don't even look at.
So are people looking at the e-mail?
So in terms of a 10,000 foot versus A-100 footer, if you're
very low and you're if your process steps are like high
level we for us, you know, you take an order, you produce it
and you ship it, that's very high.
You there are no emails there. But if you're looking at further
down manufacturing receives it, manufacturing is going to order
product, manufacturing is going to make it that's kind of
middle. And then if you go a little
lower, that's where you're going to get into so and so sends an
e-mail. Yeah.
And where you may be impacting? Day-to-day outbreak.
Yeah. And if that's what you're there
to change, then it's probably worthwhile.
But if you are really looking at a higher level change, should we
have the receiving at this warehouse and this city, state,
country or this other warehouse? I probably don't need to get to
an e-mail level, so I do. And you guys probably talk about
that as part of the process, like what level are we trying to
change so that because your time is valuable as well.
If they're coming in and saying we don't like it that Susan is
sending an e-mail, Susan and her manager probably have the
ability to change that process. But if it's we really think that
it should be a different tool at a different location, it
probably is something that needs more managed, you know, a more
managed look. So yeah.
I think that's a part of that ownership conversation.
There's different owners at each of those levels.
Susan and her manager, the vice president of marketing, right?
Those are different conversations, to someone's
point. Yeah.
All right. Well, Aaron, thank you for that
question. All right.
Well, this has been fascinating today.
I love this topic and I think I'm going to try to sneak in to
your tutorial. So and I'll, I'm going to come.
I'm definitely going to come to your other talk.
I had that on my list of things, so thanks for reminding me.
That's on Wednesday. I want to thank you guys for
spending some time with me today to talk about this.
I have left it. Yeah.
All right. Well, I'll see you in a couple
of weeks. So y'all take care.
We'll see you soon. Thank you.
And we want to thank you guys also for joining us today.
You've had some great thoughts. I see that you guys are also
kind of talking about this with each other in the comments, so
keep doing that when I see you. In a couple of weeks we are
going to be live from BBC in Toronto and we're going to be
talking about the power of finding your people.
It's not necessarily about why you should come to BBC, but we
do want to talk about why it's important to put community
around the work that we do because we're not alone.
And going to conferences and being part of the business
analysis community can help you with some of those day-to-day
things that just come up in our work.
So thanks everybody for joining us.
We'll see you in two weeks. Thanks for listening.
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