1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,160 Welcome to Probation Perspectives, insights into 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,240 Community Justice, the podcast where we dive into the world of 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,880 probation, rehabilitation and community justice. 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,400 Each episode we explored the themes, challenges and skills 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:17,560 that underpin effective probation practise. 6 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:21,280 Whether you're just starting out on the P Quip programme, have 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,960 years of experience in the field, or are simply curious 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,040 about the criminal justice system, this podcast is your 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,440 space for practical insight, expert perspectives, and 10 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,200 meaningful conversations. In today's episode, we're joined 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,160 by Professor Matthew Millings, who shares his insights from his 12 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:40,640 recent project rehabilitating probation, and Doctor Matt 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,240 Tidmarsh, representing the Probation Institute. 14 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,600 Together, we explore the evolving identity of probation, 15 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,200 the importance of professional values, and what it means to 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,320 rehabilitate the service itself. There's a sense that is so 17 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,840 important to preserve that probation craft. 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,640 This is a job that is boundless, that you have to keep learning, 19 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,040 and that learning is a key and necessary and crucial part of 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,440 this job. We talk about the challenges 21 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,840 facing the profession, the role of research and the impact of 22 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,880 change within the probation service. 23 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,520 Constant feeling that you're you're firefighting, you're 24 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,800 you're dealing with the organisational change aspect 25 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,960 rather than the day-to-day elements of your practise and 26 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:24,240 where your focus perhaps should be. 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,560 It's a rich and reflective conversation that invites us to 28 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,800 consider how probation can be reimagined not just as a 29 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,960 service, but as a profession with purpose and identity. 30 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,440 Let's get into our conversation with Matthew and Matt. 31 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,560 Welcome to today's episode. We've got 2 brilliant guests 32 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,640 with us and we've got Professor Matthew Millings and Dr Matt 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,320 Tidmarsh. Please could you begin by 34 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,840 introducing yourselves and tell us briefly about your research 35 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,960 and publications relating to probation practise. 36 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:07,080 Thanks, Mike. Yeah. 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,600 So my name is Matthew Millings. I'm a professor of criminal 38 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,800 justice at Liverpool John Wills University. 39 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,520 I'm here today primarily to talk about my experience of being a 40 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:20,360 project lead for the the SRC funded rehabilitating probation 41 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,760 project, subtitled Rebuilding Culture, Identity and Legitimacy 42 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,600 in a Reformed Public Service. And that was a project that ran 43 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:33,680 from January 2022 through till March of 2025, looking at the 44 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,120 experiences and consequences of the unification of probation 45 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,680 services that began in in 2019. And this builds on an earlier, 46 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,080 another ESRC funded project 10 years ago, where we'd looked at 47 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,760 the devolving of probation services under the Transform and 48 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,600 Rehabilitation reform programme. So we've been able to track that 49 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,920 movement of people outside and beyond probation and now some of 50 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:02,520 those people who've now returned as part of the renationalized 51 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,800 service. I was the project lead of a six 52 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,160 person strong research team that had a Professor Gwen Robinson 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,240 from the University of Sheffield, Professor Lolberg 54 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,520 from John Walls University, Professor Nicola Carr, now 55 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,920 Trinity College Dublin, Professor Harry Aniston at the 56 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:20,120 University of Southampton and then we had Ellie Surridge who 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,640 was our research assistant. Thank you very much. 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,600 And Matt, could you tell us a bit about your research areas in 59 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,720 relation to probation? Hi, thanks, Meg. 60 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,760 My name is Doctor Matt Tidmarsh and I'm an Associate Professor 61 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,080 of Criminal Justice at the University of Leeds. 62 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,360 I'm wearing another couple of hats today as well. 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,920 I'm also the chair of the Research panel at the Probation 64 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,080 Institute, which is a professional association that 65 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,240 advocates on behalf of probation staff in England and Wales, and 66 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,160 I am also a member of the Professional Register Panel. 67 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,160 Then HMPPS. There's a couple of projects 68 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,080 that are relevant. Firstly, I did my PhD on the 69 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,600 subject of professionalism in probation, published as a book 70 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,640 in 2021. I've recently completed a data 71 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,360 sweep with Doctor Matt Kraknell at the at Brunel University and 72 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,200 we looked at the experiences of training and newly qualified 73 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,000 staff enrolled on the P quip in addition to a couple of other 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,640 staff groups like a practise tutor, assessors and criminal 75 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,200 justice learning academics. And finally, I'd I've also 76 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:23,240 fairly recently completed what is basically a scaled down 77 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:24,840 version of rehabilitating probation. 78 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:27,720 So that looked at professional identity, culture and practise 79 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,160 in the aftermath of the transforming rehabilitation 80 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,600 reforms and that project's been written up and is coming out as 81 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:33,920 a book. Excellent. 82 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,280 Wow. So even from your brief 83 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:39,920 introductions there, this just highlights that both of you are 84 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,480 key people for P Quips to know about, to read your 85 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,640 publications. And just to recognise that those 86 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,920 joining the P Quip programme, some of them will have worked as 87 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,280 PS OS for many years, but some of them, a lot of these topics 88 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:56,880 will be new to them. So learning about unification, 89 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,120 about the history and development of the probation 90 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,360 service to understand the service that they're in now, but 91 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,400 I don't know if you could speak to why that is useful for those 92 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,240 joining the the P Quip programme. 93 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,440 Yeah, absolutely. I think in a project like ours 94 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,960 that's looked at the the implementation, experiences and 95 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,400 consequences of profound organisational change in a 96 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,960 service like probation, where we've looked at the policy 97 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,680 makers who are the architects of that change. 98 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,760 The senior managers at a national level who are 99 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,120 responsible for delivering it. The staff on the ground who 100 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,920 ultimately make sense of and live through organisational 101 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,000 change and the changing structures within which they 102 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,480 have to work. And then looking outwards and 103 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,520 listening to the views of those partners that probation works 104 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,960 with and those people on probation who are managed and 105 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,720 supervised by the service before, during and after 106 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,040 structural change just gives a, a full sort of 360 picture of 107 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,120 what happens and what are the fallouts when when significant 108 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,160 change happens in an organisation like probation. 109 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,120 And I, and I guess for, for P quip learners, I think there's 110 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:10,000 something really powerful about how in those moments of personal 111 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,600 and professional stress and tension that people experience 112 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,800 when they're going through organisational change, how you 113 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,480 look into your values, you look into what shapes and contributes 114 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,320 to your sense of resilience on a professional and personal level. 115 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,760 And you really start to 0 in and focus on what are those messages 116 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,800 that people hang on to, to give themselves sort of hope as they 117 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,120 go through processes, which can often incur and generate 118 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,160 feelings of uncertainty and feeling rather destabilised. 119 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:47,280 And I do think, you know, when we now look back on the sort of 120 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:49,880 voices and the messages that we've processed from our 121 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,280 research, you know, we interviewed 340 people from all 122 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:55,720 of those different audiences that I've just talked about 123 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,760 there. But actually there's a lot of 124 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:01,560 consistency about what those people from their various 125 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,640 backgrounds describe and characterise as good probation 126 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,200 practise. A real focus on relational work, 127 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,160 a real focus on working with local partners and trying to 128 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,720 devolve powers to local level Managers of probation 129 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,680 professionals and a use probation professionals in a 130 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,520 purposely elastic sense to cover the range of roles there is 131 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,680 within the service. A probation professionals 132 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,400 exercise in, you know, professional curiosity and 133 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,080 critical reflective practise and engaging with their peers. 134 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,480 These are all part of what is important and necessary to not 135 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,400 just sort of survive, but to try and thrive through periods of 136 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,240 organisational change. And I think there is something 137 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,720 interesting and reassuring when you start to dissect all of 138 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,760 those different perspectives and views that actually running 139 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,800 running through them. There is this consistently, this 140 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,000 incredible recognition around the intuitively good work that 141 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,760 probation does and I also think it's quite cathartic for people 142 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,000 who work within the probation service to recognise that people 143 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,600 within and beyond the service recognise the systemic 144 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,560 challenges that beset the sector. 145 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,720 It is widely understood and recognised now about the number 146 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,000 of vacancies in the services and the challenges that creates, the 147 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,200 increased workload challenges that that creates. 148 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,800 When we started this project in 2022, I just don't think that 149 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,400 language was socialised as is now. 150 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,080 I just don't think it was as understood. 151 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,040 This was a period where there was still a great deal of sort 152 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,560 of optimism, there was still a great deal of faith that the 153 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,760 speed, the pace, the momentum of the target operating model, 154 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,200 which was the sort of road map to help us through to the 155 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,760 completion of unification could be followed, would give us 156 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,480 those. That sense of direction, that 157 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,080 sense of hope, and for reasons often well beyond the control of 158 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,400 the probation service and its policy make the impacts of post 159 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,560 COVID working conditions, the impacts of the prison crisis, 160 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:55,880 these all contributed to making it a really difficult time to 161 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,600 work in the sector. So I think there's something 162 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:03,280 cathartic for people to work in the sector to hear that there is 163 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,000 a recognition and there's an understanding of those 164 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,200 challenges. Few messages there, but I'd say 165 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,000 in terms of a headline that P quit learners, I hope could take 166 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,520 from the entirety of a project like this is try to listen to 167 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:21,200 those different messages, see how people connect with renew 168 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,280 their values, their sense of organisational belonging. 169 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,640 However, strain that can feel at times, but then also take notice 170 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,360 of some of those other voices that are recognising this is 171 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,760 this is challenging. Probation services is often 172 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,240 faced challenges in the past, but this feels particularly 173 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,960 acute. But keeping faith in the you 174 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,240 know, the integrity of the work and its authenticity. 175 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,200 Some really great points and you've covered a lot there and 176 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,440 I'm just intrigued by Matt's thoughts. 177 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,440 You're very much identifying the experiences of P quip learners, 178 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,640 but also their professional identity and who they are as as 179 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,520 individuals working within probation. 180 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:01,520 Matthew started off as an answer by talking about profound 181 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,560 organisational change in probation. 182 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:06,600 And in a way I think that puts it mildly and sort of the 183 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,040 destruction, I think in other words, that's been enacted on 184 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,720 the service in recent years. And I think that's what Matthew 185 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,520 and his colleagues work does so well is to show really how 186 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,360 profound that change has been. And I think just to relate that 187 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,120 to my own work, and particularly in my latest book, is really to 188 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,880 show that there's a continuity in a sense to this change as 189 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,640 well. Clearly all of the problems that 190 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,560 recent research, recent government inspections have 191 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,120 documented don't come from unification. 192 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,720 I'd go even further than that. And to say that they don't come 193 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,840 from the period of transforming rehabilitation either. 194 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,920 And I think what my work tries to do is really trace those back 195 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,320 further to show how the rise of things like performance targets, 196 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,840 the rise of risk, all contributes to this continuity 197 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,080 of change that shapes the current realities of probation 198 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,120 practise. And then I guess from there it's 199 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,680 about, well, So what I mean, what's the relevance of all of 200 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:02,080 this other than that I find this vaguely interesting from a 201 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,360 recent historical perspective. And I think that's where the P 202 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,080 quip comes in. Obviously, it's crucially 203 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,120 important in terms of recruiting staff at the moment. 204 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,120 And for me, I think by tracing those more recent historical 205 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,480 elements, you can begin to identify the things that are 206 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,520 relatively constant throughout. And for me, I guess one of the 207 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,040 essential things about the P quip is about instilling within 208 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,320 people of confidence to do their work. 209 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,120 And I think if people can recognise those traditions, that 210 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,920 becomes easier to plot your own working journey through 211 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,080 probation. So just to pull out a few, I 212 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,360 think that probation is of course no longer explicitly 213 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,520 grounded in social work. There's been lots of interesting 214 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,560 research in recent years about how probation is still at its 215 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,840 heart, social work in terms of the way people approach their 216 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,400 work with their clients. And I think it's really the 217 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,760 emphasis for me on values, but being able to recognise that 218 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,400 there's a really clear sense of those values if you go back 219 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,240 throughout the services history and trying to sort of enable 220 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,120 people to to better draw on those values and to enact those 221 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,080 values in their own practise. And I think those values go to 222 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,680 the heart of what is integrity in practise and what is 223 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,960 authenticity in practise in probation. 224 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:07,640 Yeah. Thank you, Matt. 225 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,320 Matthew, are you able to tell us a bit more about what motivated 226 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,600 the rehabilitation probation project in the 1st place and 227 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,520 what did you set out to discover or find through the research? 228 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,120 Yes, this project, the Rehabilitating Probation 229 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,760 projects as its origins in our first SRC funded project 10 230 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,200 years ago, where myself, Gwen Robinson and Lowell Burke 231 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,960 identified a probation trust and worked with chief executive of 232 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,000 that probation trust to set up the research project. 233 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,280 That for 18 months allowed us to follow the journey that people 234 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,240 made as they became a community rehabilitation company. 235 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,120 And as probation staff at all levels of that organisation went 236 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,840 through that spiritual journey of being a public sector 237 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,440 employee. And as they entered into the 238 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,920 private sector and as they went on a very uncertain journey with 239 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,720 no clear ending at that time, no clear sense of who was going to 240 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,280 be the owner and, and how their working conditions and the 241 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,760 structure of the organisation might look or might even be 242 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,680 titled. We did a series of tracker 243 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,280 interviews, those new to the service, those who'd been in the 244 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,400 service for a much longer period of time. 245 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,480 And it was just very powerful to be a very close eyewitness to 246 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,280 these moments of personal professional change that people 247 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,160 were processing. And we'd always intended to go 248 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,840 back and do research with those people again and to see how with 249 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,200 this maturation of the CRC they were working in with this 250 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,560 evolved model and how it was playing out, how their sense of 251 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:40,200 identity, how their value base had shifted and changed, how 252 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,760 they were embracing the emphasis on rehabilitation in their 253 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,680 working. And it was around the time that 254 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:49,800 we were starting to design that research that we started to see 255 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,040 the discussions around the unification, which then pricked 256 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,720 our interests to design A much bigger research project, working 257 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,360 some of those other voices that we didn't capture on the last 258 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,320 project. So we did interview the 259 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,200 policymakers. We wanted the senior civil 260 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,040 servants who were responsible for the unification programme 261 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:08,880 and have been responsible for overseeing it. 262 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,240 We wanted to speak to representatives from all the 12 263 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,600 regions and we interviewed all the regional directors. 264 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,840 And we also then wanted to extend outwards because this was 265 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,840 the unification programme that was very much portrayed to the 266 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,600 world as as a necessity. This was a probation service 267 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,120 that was operating in a legitimacy deficit. 268 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:29,920 And there was a need to strengthen probation. 269 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,440 It was a need to build confidence. 270 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,320 You know, we can look at the language that was used to 271 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,320 narrate unification. So we wanted to look beyond 272 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,960 probation and we wanted to speak to those criminal justice 273 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,440 partners at a national and strategic level, but also write 274 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,800 the way down to that day-to-day operational level, build a 275 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,480 picture of what working with probation is like for those 276 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,160 people. Of course, people who have been 277 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,800 supervised by probation as well during and beyond that time. 278 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,400 So it seemed like a very unique process of unification, a 279 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,920 nationalisation of a service and it just gave us that opportunity 280 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,920 to go back and to re interview those people we 1st engaged 10 281 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,000 years ago. And that very much is we wanted 282 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,520 to capture and explore how could how did this service seek to 283 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,560 rebuild its culture, its identity, and its legitimate 284 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,520 legitimacy, judged internally, but also judged by those outside 285 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:23,120 of them? Yeah. 286 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,840 Thank you, Matthew. I think it's really interesting 287 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,080 and great that you managed to capture it because having worked 288 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,600 in the probation service myself and being part of the CRC when 289 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,000 TR happened, I was aware that actually what would other 290 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,240 agencies think? Did they think that you chose to 291 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,720 go in the private company? But there wasn't really any 292 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,840 choice and it all happened really quickly, didn't it? 293 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,040 But even now I think when I talk to people that don't know about 294 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,120 probation, don't work and it's quite a hidden service, isn't 295 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,960 it? So people don't often understand 296 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,760 that it did get partly privatised and has been brought 297 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,760 back together. So I think it's really great 298 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,600 that you're doing research to pilot some of that. 299 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,400 And also I probably should help New P Quits understand the 300 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,080 history and the impact of that when they come into the service 301 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,720 and they're learning and maybe speaking with more experienced 302 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,440 colleagues. So really interesting, thank 303 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,840 you, Matt. Your work also explores how 304 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,680 probation practise is shaped by wider governance structures. 305 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,640 How do you see these forces influencing the everyday 306 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,800 realities of probation work? Yeah, that's a really good 307 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,640 question. How does governance influence 308 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,800 everyday practise? I guess I'd start that question 309 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,600 by reflecting a little bit on how I got into this field, if 310 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,800 that's OK. Around 2015, I was currently 311 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,720 doing my master's and I decided that I wanted to do a PhD and I 312 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,840 was really, really interested in privatisation. 313 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,800 At the time. I wanted to study prison 314 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,600 privatisation in particular, but then I discovered to my shock 315 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,560 that prison privatisation wasn't on the agenda at the time of 316 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,320 2015, but something called the probation service was. 317 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,800 And I confess I'd never, I'd never heard of the probation 318 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,160 service before, before this. And so I did some. 319 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:00,960 Yeah. Well, yeah, it goes back to what 320 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,440 Kerry was saying, doesn't it? So. 321 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,839 And it just seemed to me to be quite a bad idea, if I'm honest. 322 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,599 Again, to put it euphemistically, it seemed to me 323 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:12,560 as if this would have real human impact on not only the people 324 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,920 that work in the service, but people on probation. 325 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,560 And sadly, I think that transpired to be the case. 326 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,520 I think that if you look at that governance structure that was 327 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,839 impressed or implanted in the service around privatisation, we 328 00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:28,600 saw all of the sort of stereotypical things that you 329 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,360 would expect to happen did happen. 330 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:34,840 Things like deteriorating working conditions, staff cuts, 331 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:36,800 a declining sense of performance. 332 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,840 Perhaps not the rampant profits from probation that you see in 333 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,800 other privatised industries there, but but certainly you 334 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,560 really see the impact I think of that governance structure, those 335 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,320 attempts to really make markets, for lack of a better term, in 336 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,320 probation that we're never there to make and having a real impact 337 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,760 on people. Unification, as you said, an 338 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,560 attempt by an organisation, a really unique attempt actually 339 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,680 by an organisation to rebuild its legitimacy, its culture, to 340 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,560 communicate that to the outside world, that we are a capable 341 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,480 organisation that is able to protect the public and to 342 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,080 rehabilitate individuals. Obviously they've used the 343 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,200 mechanism of renationalization, unification to do that, and I 344 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,480 think perhaps inevitably you've got this almost pendulum swing, 345 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,520 if you like. I think it has become a very 346 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,600 bureaucratic service. And I think that's something 347 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,200 that's come through really clearly in my research. 348 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,600 The frustration, I think with the amount of bureaucracy that's 349 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,560 in the civil service that I was surprised to find that people 350 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,360 really reflected back quite positively on the period of 351 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:37,920 TRCRCS as places where you could be creatives, where you could be 352 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,600 dynamic, where you could be innovative. 353 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,320 It's always sort of me to an extent, I think, because a lot 354 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,120 of the evidence from that period sort of suggests the opposite. 355 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,080 Just sorry, out of interest, Matt, the individuals that you 356 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,680 interviewed about the CRCS who were positive about innovation, 357 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,600 because that was one of the, I suppose the key things, wasn't 358 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,480 it, that there should be more ability to be creative and 359 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,560 innovative when most of them are still in the service because 360 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,400 obviously a lot of stuff left. I only interview people who are 361 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,720 currently working in probation at the time, so yes, they were 362 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,320 people who were in large part frustrated with how unification 363 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,160 gone so far. And this was quite soon after 364 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,080 unification as well. I should say it was the 365 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,080 interviews were done in May and June of 2022. 366 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,240 So it was only a year in. And I think that the time scale 367 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,000 for unification, but I think it was nine months was always very 368 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,160 ambitious. So I can understand how that 369 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,960 would have been quite process heavy at that time. 370 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,560 But they really reflected really quite positively on it in a lot 371 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,440 of cases. I saw that more so with 372 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:35,360 managers. I think. 373 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,680 I don't know whether that's because they have more contact 374 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,520 with attempting to change or make minor tweaks to policy and 375 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,840 practise than perhaps practitioners do, but yeah, a 376 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,040 lot of the managers were quite frustrated with their wings 377 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,360 being clipped, shall we say. So I would, if I could just add 378 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,480 to that conversation around this, what really I think will 379 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:59,600 stand as the missed opportunity to extract the organisational 380 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,080 learning and institutional memories, people who worked in 381 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,520 the CRCS, because we did another piece of research which focused 382 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,240 on some of the through the gate provision in one of the prisons 383 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,200 local to us here and. In Liverpool, and that was three 384 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,560 or four years after TR had happened and actually things had 385 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:17,040 got into a little bit of a rhythm. 386 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,400 And I think, you know, people were were understanding their 387 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,600 roles, they were understanding the boundaries of what they 388 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,080 could and couldn't do. They were forging new and 389 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,840 innovative and creative partnerships with local 390 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,080 organisations. There was a momentum and there 391 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,520 was a deliberate attempt by the CRC and that in that case to 392 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,240 really embrace rehabilitation. We are not the probation service 393 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,880 anymore and we're we are not a second class probation service 394 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,520 either. We are a community 395 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,000 rehabilitation company and we've got to try and, you know, make 396 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,680 the most of what we can do here. Now those, those are messages of 397 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,840 hope that did not translate for everyone, but for some they did 398 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:54,960 and they were a source of motivation and they were a 399 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,200 source of encouraging them to be innovative. 400 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,800 There was a group of CRC's that had a variety of ways of 401 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,480 innovating and doing business differently and a variety of 402 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,520 networks and partnerships they were enmeshed within. 403 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,560 And I think there's been opportunities missed to learn 404 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,400 from those. I think there was a dangerous 405 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:18,640 sort of polemic framing of everything was bad about TR and 406 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,000 it needed to stop and we needed to then to restart again. 407 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:27,000 It was clearly a model and a funding model that in hindsight 408 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,680 looked pretty flawed from the start. 409 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,680 But absolutely by its end, we were in a situation where the 410 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,040 public was being put at risk as a result of systematic flaws in 411 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,600 how the system works and something needed to be changed. 412 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,160 But it didn't mean that everything that the CRC did 413 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,320 should be forgotten about in the move towards unification. 414 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,040 And I guess that goes back to the question you're asking about 415 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,760 this governance and people in positions of influence. 416 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,440 A key part of a lot of what's happening here is about the 417 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,120 semantics, isn't it? About what unification is? 418 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,160 And the way in which people have understood this as a takeover or 419 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,920 as a merger or as an acquisition, rather than as the 420 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,560 ambition was that this would be a bringing together of the 421 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,320 strengths of different ways of doing probation and then shaping 422 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,520 a new way of doing and delivering rehabilitation and 423 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,760 protecting the public. Didn't feel like that for a lot 424 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,120 of people who had come from CRCS. 425 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:25,600 And that in large part is as a result of that trauma of the 426 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,240 experience of transforming rehabilitation. 427 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,560 Not just on those people who had the experience of moving over 428 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,600 into into the CRCS, but I think just that the speed and reach 429 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,600 that change could be made within your organisation just sent 430 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,240 shudders through the organisation. 431 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,720 And there was one of the last interviews we did was with one 432 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,480 of the area executive directors who talked about it wasn't until 433 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,440 they went out and they spoke to people in the probation offices 434 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,760 and they saw the physiological reaction when TR was mentioned 435 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,680 that it started to make sense of just how impactful and how deep 436 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,240 those legacies are of that process of change from from 10 437 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,320 years ago. And a lot of that is down to 438 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,360 just the speed, the reach, how it shapes everything from the 439 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,760 offices that you shared with colleagues who you'd work with. 440 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,280 So the commissioning arrangements, it touched every 441 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,880 aspect of the business. And it took a long time for a 442 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,240 lot of people to recover from that. 443 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,080 Yeah, I think that firstly, I think Matthew's absolutely right 444 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,040 about, I think one of the things lost in often lost in the the 445 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,520 narrative about TR is the tremendous diversity among the 446 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,960 CRCS in terms of performance. I mean, some are more much 447 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,920 better than others and some tried to do things in much more 448 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,600 different ways than others as well. 449 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,720 But frequently we sort of lump everything together as it's 450 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,040 either public and good or private and bad. 451 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,160 So you do get some of that diversity and a lot of that 452 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,920 nuance lost. The second thing was on the 453 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:50,760 semantics. I mean, I completely agree with 454 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,800 the point about how it's, it wasn't, it was never supposed to 455 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,880 be an acquisition. It was supposed to be more of 456 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,400 two organisations or many organisations coming together. 457 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,480 But I think that in a way it's understandable that it would be 458 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,680 seen as an acquisition because of decisions taken around TR. 459 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,920 For example, the decision to remove probation from the 460 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,680 organisation titled. I mean, they weren't, they 461 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,360 weren't patient. They were, they were community 462 00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:19,440 rehabilitation companies. To me that it was prioritising 463 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,680 branding and marketing over the actual nuts and bolts of what 464 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,280 people do and the job titles. I mean, the, the, the CRC that I 465 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,760 did my research in was one of the ones where probation was 466 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,240 abandoned from all the job titles. 467 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,880 So people were going into meetings with external 468 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,160 organisations, not as probation officers and probation service 469 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,960 officers, but case managers and senior case managers. 470 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,840 And immediately they were fighting against that. 471 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,640 I think Matthew put it as legitimacy deficit earlier, 472 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,600 which was quite a good way to do it. 473 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,240 So it shouldn't be seen as an acquisition. 474 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,400 But again, I think if you look a bit further back, I can 475 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,640 understand why it has seemed like that to to lots of people 476 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,440 because of mistakes, I think mistakes anyway that were made a 477 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,200 few years ago. Some really important points 478 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,200 there from both of you. What stands out to me as well is 479 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,960 when Matthew was talking about the organisational trauma of the 480 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,200 organisation as a whole and the people that are working there, 481 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,200 and when we're thinking about Pequips joining a service, 482 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,160 having an understanding of what's come before and 483 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,640 understanding how that might impact the people and that 484 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,600 they're working alongside and why mention of TR might make 485 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,240 them feel in certain ways. Certainly not to create fear or 486 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,960 concern in any of our peak quips, but why it's so important 487 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,840 that they do develop that understanding of what's come 488 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,840 before in the service that they're now a part of. 489 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,160 Thank you for those points there. 490 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,760 One of the key areas of the Rehabilitating Probation 491 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,080 project, which you've highlighted really is about 492 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,040 unification and probation services and how it's impacted 493 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,600 culture, identity and legitimacy in a reformed public service. 494 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,520 But we're thinking about and you use the term rehabilitating 495 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,080 probation. What do you mean by that term in 496 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,160 this context? Could you explain that in a bit 497 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,320 more detail please? So when we were thinking of the 498 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,600 title of the projects and what we were seeking to achieve by 499 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,920 picking up on some of the themes that we've already talked about 500 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,840 so far was that sense of this is an organisation that we were 501 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,640 being told is operating a legitimacy deficit that is in 502 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:16,000 need of change and is in need of being saved to a, to a certain 503 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,400 degree. If you look at the language that 504 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,240 was used to narrate why we were going to see this level of 505 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,040 organisational change in probation, we wanted to see to 506 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,080 what extent policy makers who were, who were, who were making 507 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,880 the policy was setting the tone, who was set in the narrative, 508 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,040 what was the vision that they were trying to create? 509 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,400 What is the angle? Where is that? 510 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,760 Where is the point that they're trying to take the service to 511 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,080 and where does that come from? How are they seeking to fuse 512 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,800 together this sort of mixed economy of rehabilitation 513 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,880 services? We had as a result of 514 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,320 Transforming Rehabilitation, we wanted to see how the 515 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,200 organisation was going to build or renew its sense of 516 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,000 organisational culture, organisational belonging. 517 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,160 You know, you're fusing together the National Probation Service, 518 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,040 which is now changing the boundaries of the regions that 519 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,040 it belonged to. You're bringing together a 520 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,360 series of community rehabilitation companies owned 521 00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,480 by a different set of providers. You've got a mix of different 522 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,680 organisational identities in this space, So how do you fuse 523 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,400 those different professional identities and cultures 524 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,240 together? And a key part of our research 525 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,920 was how can the Probation Service Act behave? 526 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:29,720 Presents itself in ways that to outside audiences suggests that 527 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,040 it is changing and that there is worthy of greater levels of 528 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,120 confidence, greater levels of trust, greater levels of 529 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,120 professional respect within the the criminal justice landscapes 530 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:42,920 that the service was operating within. 531 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,120 So what are the what are the triggers or compromise external 532 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,240 people's perceptions of trust and legitimacy in the service. 533 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,400 I hope that gives you some sense of of the different of ways 534 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:57,720 within which we wanted to explore how those responsible 535 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:02,440 for and those working within the service were seeking to build or 536 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,880 rebuild trust, identity and legitimacy in the service. 537 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,240 If you're using the term rehabilitation, which is used a 538 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,880 lot when talking about people on probation, whether it's done 539 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,120 something with them or to them, but you're applying it to the 540 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,440 organisation. And that's quite interesting 541 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,600 because it's a concept that gets discussed frequently in our P 542 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,680 quip sessions. So I'm intrigued from both of 543 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,160 you what definitions of rehabilitation you'd draw on? 544 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,960 We have quite a simple one of rehabilitation, I think, and 545 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,040 it's borrowed from Matthew's colleague on the project, Gwen 546 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,800 Robinson. She wrote a book, I think the 547 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,840 book was called Offender of Rehabilitation in 2000. 548 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,120 And rehabilitation in that is simply defined as change for the 549 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,800 better. And I think that's quite a good 550 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,920 way of getting across exactly what it is we mean when we talk 551 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,240 about rehabilitation, but in a way that's simple and really 552 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,840 easy to comprehend, I think. And Matthew very much spoke 553 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,040 about that just then from sort of an organisational 554 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,760 perspective. I mean, change that was 555 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,880 necessary and then attempting also to incorporate that change 556 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,200 for the better element. But it also works, of course, on 557 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,920 that individual level of people on probation. 558 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,080 Thoughts from you, Matthew? Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've 559 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,880 worked with Gwen for a long, long time and that there will 560 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,800 never be a point in my personal professional career where I 561 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,800 would ever challenge anything that Gwen says. 562 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,120 So firstly, that's the very first thing I'll do is reiterate 563 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,760 my agreement with Matt on the the ultimate definition of 564 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,920 rehabilitation. But absolutely tied to that, I 565 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,920 think it is that individual level. 566 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,760 It's about trying to help an individual understand the 567 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,680 impacts that are upon them that are making aspects of their life 568 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,000 particularly challenging, maybe even problematic and chaotic at 569 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,200 times. And trying to identify forms of 570 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,480 support and resources that might help get to a point where you 571 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,080 can make better decisions and have more options. 572 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,760 But it's it's changed for the better. 573 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,560 Excellent. Thank you from both of you. 574 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,280 So we've covered it a little bit, Matthew, but what have been 575 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,200 some of the key insights or findings from the project so 576 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,760 far? I'll pull out four key learning 577 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,880 points or observations that I think would be a value to equip 578 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,840 learner audience that we're trying to speak to. 579 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,840 The first thing is that the the sort of impacts and legacies of 580 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,520 organisational change are just so significant and have been so 581 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,600 significant for the probation service and change has just been 582 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,720 such a demanding and draining experience for people at all 583 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,480 levels of the organisation. And we did a workshop with 584 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,680 regional probational region and one of those directors said they 585 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,760 felt with confidence they could say that for the 80% of the last 586 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,600 decade, they have been focused on dealing with implementing or 587 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,000 responding to the consequences of organisational change and not 588 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,520 in focusing on those issues that would build practitioner 589 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,320 confidence that would help sort of improve relationships with 590 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,120 partners. And there was no disagreement 591 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,200 within that route. And we then can draw parallels 592 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,280 for some of the interviews that we did with probation delivery 593 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,640 unit leads. Four years on from unification, 594 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,280 we're still estimating that they probably had spent 70% of that 595 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:09,360 time in dealing with the fallout of organisational change and the 596 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,120 impacts that it's had on their Staffs. 597 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,080 Those sort of legacy of organisational change, the 598 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,360 disproportionate focus on organisational change and that 599 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,880 sense that instability is almost like embedded into the 600 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,960 professional identity of many of those who've worked in the 601 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,760 service. I think is something that just, 602 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,880 you know, has to be, has to be acknowledged. 603 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,640 And that that culture of emotional strain on people, I 604 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,240 think is just something that that you can't escape when you 605 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,920 do research in this field. I think a second key theme that 606 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,960 that is really pertinent for our P quip learners is what we have 607 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,320 consistently found in this project. 608 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,680 And the last is a real sort of humility from probation 609 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,160 practitioners, all levels of the organisation and all stages of 610 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,200 their career to keep learning and to keep engaging in 611 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,680 reflective practise. And so some of those people we 612 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,480 interviewed in the most recent projects who've who've got 613 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,160 careers in probation 2530 years plus, still recognise that they 614 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,520 need to keep learning. They need to keep understanding 615 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,320 the complexity of the people who are sitting in front of them, 616 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,600 who they have to manage in the probation service. 617 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,520 And that some of the behaviours that those people are engaging 618 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,080 in, some of the backgrounds and some of the contexts that 619 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,840 they're coming from are new, are different and they need new 620 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,280 skills. There's a sense that is so 621 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,840 important to preserve that probation craft. 622 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,720 This is a job that is boundless, that you have to keep learning 623 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,040 and that learning is a key and necessary and crucial part of 624 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,960 this job. And obviously for P quip 625 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,800 learners, that nowhere in that in a probation career journey is 626 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:47,160 learning as explicit as it is, as it is on AP Quip programme. 627 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,440 And the importance of really engaging with those messages and 628 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,000 focus on values and ethics as well as the more practical sort 629 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,080 of skills development. And when workloads become too 630 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,400 high and when working conditions become quite tough and stifling 631 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,320 to work, work within, there's a sad inevitability about the 632 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,080 compromises in reflective practise. 633 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,600 There's, there's, there's a post COVID landscape that we're 634 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,640 working within that mitigates against people coming into the 635 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,920 office sharing ideas. But these are a crucial part of 636 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,120 what good probation practise involves. 637 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,280 And there is a real passion and a real enthusiasm from people at 638 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,280 all levels. And I think it is now recognised 639 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,280 by by people at the very top, the policy makers of that need 640 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,520 to try to build in that protective time and to engage in 641 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,160 that critical reflective practise and to keep learning. 642 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,960 So that preservation of a professional probation craft I 643 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,760 think is something that's shared across all sorts of levels. 644 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,320 A third key point is around probations legitimacy to outside 645 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,120 audiences and the importance of how on a day-to-day basis, how 646 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,520 people act, how people behave and what they say does 647 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,320 communicate messages to outside audiences about what probation 648 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,680 is, what it offers, the nature of the work that the probation 649 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,920 service undertakes. In the work that we've done with 650 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,600 policing partners, people working in youth justice, people 651 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,640 working in the courts and the judiciary themselves, we found a 652 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,639 sympathy and an empathy for the plight of the probation service, 653 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:13,960 The sense that they're being overworked, the sense that there 654 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,880 are problems with recruitment and retention in the service. 655 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:20,159 And although that sympathy on one level is quite nice, so it 656 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:22,440 shows that people are understanding and respectful of 657 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,840 the challenges that you're facing. 658 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,719 We don't really want a service that has sympathy. 659 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,120 We want a service that's better funded and better able to do its 660 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,280 job and, and is respected for what it brings to the 661 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,840 conversation. But what we are seeing is there 662 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,719 is a, there is often a sort of deep respect for the service and 663 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,360 the intuitively good work it does. 664 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,360 There is also inescapably A problematic reality with the 665 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,800 visibility of probation officers currently and their ability to 666 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,000 be able to perform some of the more pragmatic and basic 667 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,080 day-to-day jobs that are tied up in multi agency working. 668 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,960 And so it's important for people who working in probation is 669 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,920 recognising that they are ambassadors for the service. 670 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,480 And that although at this moment in time things are challenging 671 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,560 and tough, there is still a real recognition of the moral work 672 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,200 that the probation service does. And it's about keeping that 673 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,200 visibility and representation in the eyes of partners. 674 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,280 And then the final thing I'd say is what we can see in our 675 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,480 research from this this project, there is undoubtedly this sense 676 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,680 of individual and collective vulnerability that that the 677 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,840 service feels. This is a service that is under 678 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,560 scrutiny. And what we find in our research 679 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,400 is that people actually, although they often reflect 680 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,480 quite well when they think about their own level of confidence 681 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,880 and their own level of competency in doing their job, 682 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,200 they're a lot less confident in the ability of the wider service 683 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,680 to work. Now that for us is slightly 684 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,280 worrying because what it does is it tells us, as often happens in 685 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,640 moments of organisational strain, workers engage in a 686 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,280 little bit of preservation itself. 687 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,080 And you focus on what you can control and on the workload that 688 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:03,000 you can manage and maybe become less concerned with or feel less 689 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,000 responsibility to some of the wider patterns of organisational 690 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,520 behaviour around you. In an organisation like 691 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,480 probation, which I think is built on that sense of 692 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,680 collaboration and working together, that can be damaging 693 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,120 to the organisational and occupational culture. 694 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,760 So it's about trying to create those conditions where 695 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,120 practitioners can rebuild their confidence, can have the 696 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,160 opportunity to engage in critical reflective practise, 697 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,960 can try to strive to engage in those processes of professional 698 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,800 curiosity that try to address some of those worrying trends 699 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,080 where that's individual and collective vulnerability 700 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,840 actually starts to have an impact in the practise that 701 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,320 that's delivered out there. Yeah, thank you, Matthew. 702 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,440 That's really interesting. And encouraging to hear actually 703 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,520 that you're saying there's this support and buy in from higher 704 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,680 levels of the probation service about the importance of critical 705 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,560 reflexive practise. But also, I think your point is 706 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,120 really key about being an ambassador for the probation 707 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,280 service when you're working with other agencies. 708 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,800 And maybe there's still some concerns about workloads 709 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,120 enabling that. I remember even before TR, 710 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,760 moving to a more rural office that had been really 711 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,240 understaffed for a while and going like being the first 712 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:11,160 probation officer for a long time that had gone to the 713 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,040 housing meeting, for example, and just because we hadn't had 714 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,600 the staff to go. But actually, if you're not 715 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,200 there to advocate or support it compacts, doesn't it? 716 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:23,040 So really useful learning. Thank you, I just wondered what 717 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,080 are some of the key takeaways from your own research into P 718 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,520 quip training and probation identity? 719 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,080 I think that it's easier. To do this with reference to a 720 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,480 couple of quotes, one of them was this would have been in 721 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,520 2022, but she was enrolled on the P quip at the time and she'd 722 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,600 only worked in the service for just under 2 years. 723 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,120 And she said that she already felt overworked, understaffed 724 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,520 and in the organisation and underpaid. 725 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,240 And for me that set off a few alarm bells and thinking, well, 726 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:52,400 you know, you haven't been here that long. 727 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:53,960 It's, it's really concerning that you've said that. 728 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,240 Actually, I think some of my other researchers tried to 729 00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:59,360 explore how people cope with those pressures. 730 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,440 The constant feeling as Matthew raised a couple of times that 731 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,600 you're firefighting, you're you're dealing with the 732 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,440 organisational change aspect rather than the the sort of 733 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,240 day-to-day elements of your practise and where your focus 734 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:12,520 perhaps should be. But in terms of the other major 735 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,480 findings, what I found was there's a real persistence of 736 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,760 values and it doesn't really matter who you speak to and at 737 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,720 what level of the service. People will will roughly 738 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:24,360 articulate similar reasons for why they entered the as a 739 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,840 service. Sometimes that's phrased in 740 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,360 terms of public protection, but not typically I think is phrased 741 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,320 in terms of wanting to work with people. 742 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,160 That said, there are a few different ways that people 743 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:34,760 approach that working with people. 744 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,080 I think for some, they resolutely identified with their 745 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,640 clients and said we believe in the job, we believe in the 746 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,640 values, it's why we endured no matter everything that's thrown 747 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,760 at us. And that sort of retreat into 748 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,680 values was one way of coping, I think, with organisational 749 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,520 change. I also found evidence of those 750 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,560 values beginning to wane within some stuff. 751 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,480 And I guess they're people who are I would consider to be most 752 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,360 at risk of exiting the service responses. 753 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,000 Like there would have been a time in my career when I would 754 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,080 have gone the extra mile and I would have put that work in. 755 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,400 But but why would I do that now? I'm sick of having to constantly 756 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,600 go the extra mile for very little reward. 757 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,640 And they weren't talking about financial reward, they were 758 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,440 talking about how the job made them feel and what the job gave 759 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,120 back to them. And the third way is that so 760 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,800 much work now is outsourced to the multi agency landscape. 761 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,760 So there was a real frustration, I think with people wanting to 762 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,640 work with people but not feeling like they were able to. 763 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,920 So a lot of this work was directed outside to, for 764 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,400 example, substance use recovery charities, mental health and 765 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,360 those, those organisations clearly have a role to play 766 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,000 because clearly probation practitioners and it's not 767 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,800 necessarily their job, I think to provide really in depth 768 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,240 mental health support to people. But certainly I think there's, 769 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,360 there's a big reliance and perhaps an even bigger reliance 770 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,600 now on that multi agency infrastructure. 771 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,160 Umm, and I think the importance for this for people on the P 772 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,840 quip is I interviewed A practise tutor assessor and when I asked 773 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,080 him about how his, how he understood his role, he said 774 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:00,160 something that really stuck with me. 775 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,800 He said that he saw his role as training people for the future. 776 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,520 Possible. And what he meant by that was he 777 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,440 very much saw his role as training people for a time when 778 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,240 caseloads were more stable, when there were there were more 779 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:15,280 staff. And I think that's why where the 780 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:16,800 reflective practise element comes in. 781 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,920 I mean it's getting those good habits I think into people that 782 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,560 ability to look critically, to look reflexively at what you're 783 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,560 doing. And if that is perhaps somewhat 784 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,440 challenging to fit in or potentially even to see the 785 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,880 relevance, I've given all the stuff that you've got going on. 786 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,640 At the same time, if and when case loads do settle down a 787 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,040 little bit, you do have more time. 788 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,160 It's a way to build that development into your practise. 789 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,240 And finally, I remember asking a regional director about this 790 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:49,120 once, why don't you offer, I put it didn't put it as bluntly as 791 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,120 this, but why don't you offer some comments to staff? 792 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,640 And they told me because if they go to youth justice, they won't 793 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,160 come back. So, and they were being 794 00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:59,120 facetious, but I think that it would be nice to see those other 795 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,560 avenues outside of the service I think opened up as a form of 796 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,600 professional development and also giving scope for people to 797 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,280 reflect on their work and on the service itself. 798 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:09,680 Yeah. And I think that was probably 799 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,840 something. Else that people liked when they 800 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,520 joined. Isn't it the variety of roles 801 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,400 that you could do? But also I think it's really 802 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,120 key, the point you both make about actually the need for 803 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,000 continual professional development, you know, always 804 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,840 thinking that there's something else you can learn. 805 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,920 What we can we learn from research about the best skills, 806 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,800 the best things that we can do to work with people on probation 807 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:31,720 and that point about continuous. Professional development makes 808 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,400 me think of the professional register. 809 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,720 I'm sure you can speak to that, Matt, because this is something 810 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:38,280 that's been brought in quite recently. 811 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,080 But that is a key part of it, isn't it? 812 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,760 Ensuring that people keep up to date. 813 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,640 Yeah, definitely. It's it's a noble ambition. 814 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,600 As well, I think the professional register, I think 815 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,360 that in many ways that it is it is very welcome. 816 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,480 This idea that probation is more formally recognised as a 817 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,040 profession. Obviously it has its challenges. 818 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,000 I think like anything in probation at the moment, in 819 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,080 terms of people finding the time to engage in continuous 820 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,920 professional development, excellent, so thinking. 821 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:10,000 About your findings and P quips and people new to the service, 822 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,360 what key points would you make to those at the start of their 823 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,880 careers within probation in. Terms of thinking of the 824 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,320 rehabilitating probation projects specifically just take 825 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,000 a lot of people's views around what they think probation should 826 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,760 be and what probation is. And there's a bit of a 827 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,080 difference between those two things currently. 828 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,080 But when you actually speak to policy makers, when you speak to 829 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,000 organisational leaders and you speak to practitioners and you 830 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,440 speak to partners and people on probation, it does come back to 831 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,040 some of those core, quite simple things really about what good 832 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,320 probation practise is. The importance of relational 833 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,160 work and building up a connection between two people 834 00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:55,440 ultimately is at the core of a lot of this work. 835 00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,040 That probation practitioner having an understanding of a 836 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,520 series of resources and responses and interventions that 837 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,520 they can use to help support the person sat in front of them. 838 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,880 Some of those come from within the service and some of those 839 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,280 are from local organisations. The importance of being able to 840 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,640 empower local leaders as well, to be able to shape the response 841 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,280 of how a probation service responds to the people that it 842 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,280 supervises. The nature of the issues, the 843 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,200 nature of the backgrounds that people present with are 844 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,000 different in different locations and so you have to allow for 845 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,120 some flexibility in the system. If we accept that changes are 846 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,960 constant within the probation service and history tells us it 847 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,920 probably will be and is, then we have to then start to look at 848 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,400 some of those things that do centre us and that do give us a 849 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,080 bit of sort of empowerment and a bit of hope in how we do our 850 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:50,920 practise. And some of those things are the 851 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,560 office we work in, maybe some of the regional identity that we 852 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,480 belong to. Maybe it's about how we can 853 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,920 access structures and organisations that sit outside 854 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:03,720 of the hierarchical structure of HMPPS and your local probation 855 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:05,800 delivery unit or the specialist team that you're in. 856 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,320 Maybe it's the Probation institute, maybe it's your local 857 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,840 Napo branch, maybe it's a network of peers that you work 858 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,320 with in a multi agency space. But again, it's looking at and 859 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,320 fostering and nurturing those relationships that provide you 860 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,720 with the sort of resources you might need to build your 861 00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,280 resilience to protect you when you go through process of 862 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,480 organisational change. I would absolutely identify the 863 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,000 importance that is put into training and continuous 864 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,600 reflective practise. And we're dealing with an 865 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,480 organisation now where nearly half of the people who are 866 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,520 working in the PD, us in England and Wales have been in the 867 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,320 service for less than two years. So all those people won't have 868 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,640 experienced unification, won't have experienced, certainly 869 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,920 won't have experienced transform and rehabilitation. 870 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,840 And as you've explained in this podcast, you know, yes, there's 871 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,960 a necessary there's there's there's a bit of learning our 872 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,720 history and there's a bit of understanding that 873 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:57,640 organisational context, but there's also understanding how 874 00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:00,680 we can keep our focus on the sort of values and the 875 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,480 principles because change will be coming again and there will 876 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,600 be tweaks and there'll be other changes that will happen. 877 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,840 But actually good probation work looks pretty much the same in 878 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:17,920 2025 as it did in 2005 and 1985 Change. 879 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,880 Yeah. Thank you for that summary. 880 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,840 Matt, any thoughts from Yeah, I think this is quite. 881 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,920 A difficult question to answer, principally because I've never 882 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,720 worked in probation. So there's part of me, the 883 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,240 doubts, my own legitimacy, I think in terms of giving advice 884 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:36,600 to people, new starters, in terms of how I would encourage 885 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,920 them to approach the job and the things to keep at the forefront 886 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,440 of their mind. But I think Matt raised lots of 887 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,760 Matthew, sorry, raised lots of really valid points. 888 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,760 He spoke about the core of the work and about relationships, 889 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,680 that relational aspect to supervision, to remember why or 890 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,120 strive to remember why people got into the job in the 1st 891 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,080 place, which, you know, the overwhelming majority of the 892 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,640 research says is to do with personal values. 893 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,920 Matthew also brought up how new a lot of people who work in 894 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,920 probation are. And I think that there's also 895 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,920 part of me that thinks that there should be some onus on 896 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,960 experienced colleagues to to step up and help with younger 897 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,880 colleagues and share in terms of sharing their experiences, 898 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,680 strive to build local networks and get to know people who work 899 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,800 in organisations in the communities that you work in, 900 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,120 because you will undoubtedly lean on them in the future. 901 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,800 And just to reframe this slightly away from what I would 902 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,440 tell people that enrolled on the Pequip, but rather anybody with 903 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,880 responsibility for policy, I think is remember what happens 904 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,160 when people qualify and the the stress that it causes when 905 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:39,920 people participate in the project. 906 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,600 I've been doing with Matt Kraknell, people spoke to us 907 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,720 about a Cliff edge at the end of training whereby they sort of 908 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,240 graduate into A to become a probation officer and suddenly 909 00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:50,360 the caseload increases and it's really, really difficult to 910 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,800 manage. So keeping that at the forefront 911 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,640 and not over overloading and overwhelming people literally 912 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,840 just after they've qualified. There was also quite a lot about 913 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,840 job insecurity. I think, for lack of a better 914 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,880 word, people move it being moved to different offices potentially 915 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,200 an hour away from where they've trained. 916 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,320 And the implications that has to what Matthew described as place 917 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,000 based identities, different office cultures. 918 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:17,520 I would, I think I would try to encourage HMPPS to consider that 919 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,240 when people qualify and not telling them that suddenly they 920 00:47:20,240 --> 00:47:22,400 have to move an hour away for work. 921 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,360 But certainly I think there are lessons there in terms of what 922 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,400 the organisation can do to help people who are on and have 923 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,760 recently completed the P quip, in terms of how they help people 924 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,600 to adapt to their role. Really important points there. 925 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,720 And it's important for P Quips to know that people are aware of 926 00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:42,720 those, the governance issues. So I'm really pleased that 927 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,240 you're pointing out because you know, they do share these 928 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,160 thoughts with us often and they'll be pleased to know that 929 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,760 people are raising them. Just wanted to go back to. 930 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,120 The point about critical reflective practise because it's 931 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,880 a key part of the Peakwit training for both of you. 932 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,680 Can you share your thoughts about the importance of 933 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,600 reflective practise for probation staff? 934 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,080 So I guess reflective practise. I think it's good because it 935 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:07,960 obviously provides an opportunity for people to look 936 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,920 critically and inwardly at themselves and at their 937 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,000 practise. And I think that looking 938 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,680 critically at yourself is just as important as looking 939 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,160 critically at practise because it's such an important way to 940 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,840 help check bias, any subconscious biases that we 941 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,360 hold, for example, as well as being that vehicle, that motor 942 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,440 for continuous professional development. 943 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,920 I spoke earlier about how it would be nice to see 944 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,000 practitioners with more time to do their jobs. 945 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,360 And I think that that's where really where I think start to 946 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,560 reap the benefits of being reflective in practise as, as 947 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,960 and when people begin to have more time to approach their 948 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,840 work. I think it helps to situate the 949 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,840 processes work in broader context as well. 950 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,080 And I think that's important for build building resilience in 951 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,000 work. You know, you are not alone in 952 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,000 this. There are broader systemic 953 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,360 systematic pressures that you are currently working under. 954 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,040 And I think the critical reflective practise can help to 955 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:04,320 create that space in which to reflect on those things. 956 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,920 And the final thing I'd like to say on this is that I hope that 957 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,080 in some way the people that I've interviewed and done focus 958 00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,240 groups with over recent years have found interviews a form of, 959 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,960 of reflective practise, that they have been cathartic for 960 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,160 them in terms of reflecting on the pressures of. 961 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:20,600 Great. Thank you, Matt. 962 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,720 And. Matthew, your thoughts on the 963 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:24,360 importance of reflective practise? 964 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,600 Yeah, just to 11. Thing to add with a very clear 965 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,520 focus on people at the start of their probation career or who 966 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,920 are embarking on or completing the P quip is very often I found 967 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,960 in in in research projects I've done with people who worked in 968 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,640 probation and people who've been in probation for a very long 969 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,880 time. When they reflect back on what's 970 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,680 been important to them and what they've enjoyed most about their 971 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,440 career and their sort of create highlights or memories they have 972 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,800 from their career. It's amazing how frequently they 973 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,600 can often identify people who were significant to them, who 974 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,920 weren't their line manager, who didn't have immediate 975 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,360 responsibility for them, but with whom they worked with, with 976 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,640 whom they went to with a case with an issue, with a problem, 977 00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:08,360 had a discussion they could talk it through. 978 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,360 And also those people that they remember starting in the 979 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,200 service, that they felt a sense of duty to mentor and to offer 980 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,640 back to them as well. Things. 981 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,480 It's not just about what you can extract from people around you, 982 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,200 but also that sense of responsibility you have to the 983 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,560 others who are, who are coming through after you as well. 984 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,920 And just those sharing of experiences through process of 985 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,320 critical reflective practise are often those things that people 986 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,280 look back on in their career with pride. 987 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:36,680 They remember those things fondly. 988 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,360 So I guess if we are to do anything by drawing on the 989 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,840 insights of people who are, who are much further away in their 990 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,400 career than maybe the people that we're focusing on here, is 991 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,880 to learn from those people and to see how just how impactful 992 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,240 having those conversations are. Continually developing your 993 00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:55,720 practise, sharing your experiences, sharing your 994 00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:58,080 vulnerabilities with some of those people that you work with, 995 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,640 and also not being bashful and sharing some of those pieces of 996 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,400 work that you think you've done well. 997 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,520 And, and that can enrich what is is happening in your, in your, 998 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,400 in your operation delivery unit, within a specialist team within 999 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,000 which you work, whatever it may be. 1000 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,400 It's just, you know, a more professionally curious and a 1001 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,800 more professionally confident workplace is going to be a place 1002 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,360 that's going to be more rewarding to work as well as 1003 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,000 being more impactful in the long run. 1004 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:28,240 Thank you for that. So we're coming towards the end 1005 00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:31,520 of the podcast now, and I'm going to give both of you a 1006 00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,560 special power. I'm going to give you a magic 1007 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,720 wand, and you can use this magic wand to make one change to how 1008 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:41,480 rehabilitation is thought about or supported in probation. 1009 00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,080 So what you would do with your magic wand, what change would 1010 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,280 you put in place? I do think. 1011 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,840 There is a need to locally empower the probation service 1012 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,640 and to the actual original vision of the target operating 1013 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,880 model and the role of the regional probation director 1014 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,520 within that did actually look like it could have a lot of 1015 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,360 those powers to be able to really strengthen a probation 1016 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,640 voice in a local level and how it worked with partners in how 1017 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,640 it commissioned services and how it could create a nurture a 1018 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,000 culture within a region. And I don't think it's quite 1019 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,880 worked out that way. It's not worked as effectively. 1020 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,080 So I would say you need to empower local leadership so it 1021 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,000 can properly resource and work with local partners to respond 1022 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,080 to local need. And that way when you then 1023 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,720 engage in that meaningful relational work, you've got the 1024 00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:34,640 resources, you've got the interventions, you've got the 1025 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,800 local knowledge that is appropriate and suited to that 1026 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,040 space and you you can really influence that. 1027 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,720 Empowering local leadership is about how they Commission 1028 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:45,960 resources, how they can work with partners, how they can 1029 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,320 recruit the people that they need to fill the gaps where they 1030 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,080 know that they need to fill those gaps. 1031 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,360 And I think what that would then do is just allow for probation 1032 00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,680 to have a little bit more visibility and to all its 1033 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,160 audiences, to the public, to its partners, to be more visible 1034 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,520 and, and to have a clearer understanding of what the job is 1035 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,000 doing. Which feeds then into the bigger 1036 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,880 point, which is I do think that probation just does need that 1037 00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,520 stronger, more visible, more vocal, high level political 1038 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,440 leadership to both educate wider audiences about the job of the 1039 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,960 probation service and then to suitably manage people's 1040 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,240 expectations about what can be achieved within which time, 1041 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,480 within the timeframes it can be achieved and how communities 1042 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,840 have a role to play within processes of rehabilitation. 1043 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,080 I'm going to finish with this. So this I remember doing an 1044 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,120 interview with with someone very senior in HMPPS who said to me, 1045 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,160 the public can imagine a prison, you talk about a prison, they 1046 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,440 can visualise a prison, they can visualise a prison door and they 1047 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,000 can imagine being sat behind that prison door and start to 1048 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,280 invoke a series of emotional responses. 1049 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,560 That means you, when you're in that position, the public in the 1050 00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,640 main don't know what probation supervision looks like, doesn't 1051 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,040 understand what probation supervision involves. 1052 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,880 And they were saying that there is a good story to tell there. 1053 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,000 And it's the job of the probation service to try and 1054 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,560 tell that story a bit more, a bit more publicly because people 1055 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,360 will find interest in this and they'll be hooked by this. 1056 00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,160 And that has been highlighted in the. 1057 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,360 Sentencing Act, hasn't it? They've been highlighting if 1058 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,480 we're going to push to use community penalties more than we 1059 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,720 need to make sure the public have a greater understanding of 1060 00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:27,160 it. Yeah, I mean, I won't go as far 1061 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,080 as naming. And shaming photos of people. 1062 00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:32,840 Let's not you know, don't get me wrong there, Matt. 1063 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:34,000 What? What are you going to do with 1064 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:34,920 your? Magic wands. 1065 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,920 Tell us what? Right? 1066 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,680 OK. So I am going to come at this on 1067 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,280 a bit more of a conceptual level, but there's going to be 1068 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,960 lots of overlap with the answer that Matthew gave. 1069 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:47,800 And Matthew said it has to start with the local. 1070 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:49,600 And I would, I would sort of come in it from the other way, 1071 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,800 not in the sense that what we need is another big top down 1072 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,080 reorganisation. But part of the question was you 1073 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:56,320 asked about changing the waves. We think about probation. 1074 00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,840 And for me, what I would like to see is probation be sort of 1075 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,480 increasingly more in terms of public health perhaps than 1076 00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,000 criminal justice, because I think there needs to be a focus 1077 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,680 on the needs of people on probation and how they can be 1078 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,280 addressed and to sort of work upwards, if you like, from 1079 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,440 there. And that's I think that's where 1080 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,960 the local element comes in. And that means building 1081 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,600 connections with local organisations. 1082 00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,400 It means local probation delivery units, regions having 1083 00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:26,240 the power to also make those relationships, to formalise 1084 00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:28,480 those relationships, what in whatever form that looks like, 1085 00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,480 giving regions, giving probation delivery units, the autonomy to 1086 00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,080 explore those things that fundamentally put people's needs 1087 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,560 to the forefront. In an ideal world, using my 1088 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:41,520 magic wand, people would have more time and more space to, for 1089 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,840 example, sit with people for longer to talk to them in ways 1090 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,480 that aren't driven by what performance targets you need to 1091 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,200 meet. It means helping people put 1092 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,080 together benefits claims, benefits applications, 1093 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,400 accompanying people to multi agency meetings, Co supervising 1094 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,680 people if you like, perhaps from substance use recovery or from 1095 00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,200 escorting people to housing appointments, things like that. 1096 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,600 To me, that's what a good relationship and probation 1097 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,640 should, in an ideal world, look like. 1098 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:08,960 Of course, there are there are many, many reasons why they 1099 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,760 don't look like that at the moment, and I don't think we 1100 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,240 need to dwell on those. But I would like to see that 1101 00:56:13,240 --> 00:56:17,400 more public health element creep into a probation thinking to 1102 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,600 probation practise, to produce a practise, I think where 1103 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:24,160 practitioners walk alongside people, perhaps to a greater 1104 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,240 extent than perhaps the kind of sit opposite them, if you like, 1105 00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,160 approach. I think that dominates a lot of 1106 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,760 work. So again, that's that's a very 1107 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,800 broad wave of a magic wand that requires many other wishes to 1108 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,360 come true. But yes, certainly I would like 1109 00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:41,360 to see us decenter that criminal justice element slightly and 1110 00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,240 really elevate that public health element. 1111 00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:44,680 And I think there's some great research in this. 1112 00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:46,960 I mean, Coral Soda Field and her colleagues work at Lincoln, I 1113 00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,640 think is really great on public health and probation. 1114 00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,400 And there are others who work in this space. 1115 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,760 And I think that there's a lot to learn from that area as it 1116 00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,040 relates to criminal justice. Yeah. 1117 00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:58,200 Thank you for that, Matt. And. 1118 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,160 It's just reminding me times, the probation service has been a 1119 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,200 bit more like that, hasn't it? And various IOM projects, for 1120 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,720 example, that I've been involved in, there's been more freedom, 1121 00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:09,840 more roles to do that kind of work with people, meet them out 1122 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,320 in the community more, because actually that's where we're 1123 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:14,760 wanting people to be rehabilitated to the point where 1124 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,360 they are in the community. So in some sense is just seeing 1125 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,680 people in the the office isn't really the reality, is it? 1126 00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:21,200 But great. Thank you for that. 1127 00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,920 So could you both recommend maybe a book or an article or a 1128 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,360 source for our listeners or particularly P Quips who are 1129 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,760 listening in this area? Matthew, do you want to go 1130 00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,200 first? Yeah, more than happy to. 1131 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,360 I mean first. And foremost, I would recommend 1132 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:42,040 visiting our project website, rehabilitating-probation.org.uk. 1133 00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,400 And you'll find there a. Whole series of things that I 1134 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:47,640 think will be of interest in that. 1135 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,960 There's that there's a number of links to some podcasts that 1136 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,920 we've done. All of the articles published by 1137 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,680 the research projects are available through that website 1138 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,240 and they're all available for free. 1139 00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:00,880 So I would then say with the money you save on accessing 1140 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:05,080 those free articles and go and buy Matt's book now, how is that 1141 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:06,880 the spirit of collegiality there? 1142 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:10,040 But yeah, look at the website. Thank you, Matt. 1143 00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,160 How about yourself? Obviously, people should buy. 1144 00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,520 My book no, it's it's incredibly expensive. 1145 00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,360 So please encourage your library if you're involved at university 1146 00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,760 to order coffee. But in all seriousness, I think 1147 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,640 that in addition to all of the Matthew and his colleagues, 1148 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,760 great work on their website and all the resources that are 1149 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:31,000 available. I've joined the Probation 1150 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:34,480 Institute and access loads more resource and resources and but I 1151 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,520 think in terms of articles, there's two that I wanted to 1152 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,920 recommend. The first one is as a Network of 1153 00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:43,480 relationships by Jane Domini, where she talks that she's kind 1154 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,680 of fleshes out this notion of thick supervision and what that 1155 00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,520 looks like in practise relative to thin supervision. 1156 00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,520 She calls it where it's largely an administrative process. 1157 00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,280 So I'd highly recommend reading that. 1158 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,680 The second one is that there is, there was a report going back to 1159 00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,960 what I said a minute ago about I think the importance of 1160 00:58:59,960 --> 00:59:02,000 centering the needs of people on probation. 1161 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:06,160 There's a really interesting report by Public Health England 1162 00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:07,880 that they've changed their name now, but Public Health England 1163 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,960 on the health and social care needs of people on probation. 1164 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,400 And this is a fascinating insight, I think, into the kind 1165 00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,320 of issues with which people present when they come on 1166 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,000 probation, but also, and I think most importantly, the extent to 1167 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,200 which these issues intersect and overlap with one another. 1168 00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,760 And I think if you really want to understand and get to know a 1169 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:30,200 lot of people on the probation caseload, then research on needs 1170 00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:32,640 is the best way to do that. And highly recommend those two 1171 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:33,920 pieces. Thank you, Matt. 1172 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,240 We'll make sure we get those. All of those put on the the show 1173 00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:38,480 notes. So it's been a really 1174 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,040 interesting episode. Thank you both for all your 1175 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,800 thoughts that you've shared. Is there anything else that we 1176 00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,280 haven't covered today that Eve if you wanted to share with our 1177 00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,640 listeners to? Wish all those people who listen 1178 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:53,120 to this who are undertaking their P quick training, wish 1179 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,800 them well and from my experience of speaking to people who stay 1180 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,520 in probation, they go on to have long really rewarding careers. 1181 01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:01,720 Excellent. Thank you both of you for. 1182 01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:07,040 Your insights in this episode. Thanks for listening to 1183 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,040 Probation Perspectives Insights into community justice. 1184 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,240 We hope our conversation with Professor Matthew Millings and 1185 01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,600 Dr Matt Tidmarsh offered fresh perspectives on the future 1186 01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,480 probation and the importance of professional identity from the 1187 01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,440 insights of the. Rehabilitating Probation project 1188 01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,600 to the work of the Probation Institute. 1189 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,520 We trust this episode has sparked reflection on what it 1190 01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,520 means to be part of a profession committed to justice, 1191 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,880 rehabilitation, and change. If you found this episode 1192 01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,200 valuable. Please subscribe, leave a review 1193 01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,080 and share it with colleagues or anyone you think would benefit. 1194 01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,880 And do let us know your thoughts on who you'd like to hear from 1195 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,320 next. A big thank you to Matthew. 1196 01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,480 And Matt for sharing their expertise and to the team behind 1197 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,440 Probation Perspectives for making this podcast possible. 1198 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,640 We'll be back soon with more. Conversations that shine a light 1199 01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,440 on the practise, purpose and people behind the probation and 1200 01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,400 community justice. Until next time, take care.