1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,320 Welcome to probation perspectives, insights into 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,520 community justice, the podcast where we explore the people, 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,880 ideas and practises shaping probation, rehabilitation and 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,240 community justice today, whether. 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,200 You're AP Quip Learner, a seasoned practitioner simply 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,240 curious about how creativity intersects with criminal 7 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,240 justice. This is your space for 8 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:25,880 reflective conversations and practical insights. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,960 In today's episode, we're joined by Jennifer Warmsley, Co 10 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,280 Director of Bareface Theatre, whose work in applied theatre 11 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:35,880 has supported people on probation, women in the justice 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,440 system, and practitioners. We dive into how creativity can 13 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,360 open up new ways of seeing ourselves, shifting identity, 14 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,440 and supporting desistance. The work really helps us explore 15 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,160 our identities and it's active, it's hands on, We're embodying A 16 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:55,040 practise, we're we're trying out how we handle everyday 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,680 situations in a safe environment. 18 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,320 These courses, this programme and being creative helps us to 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,560 start to see things through a different lens. 20 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,960 We talk about the value of applied theatre and how creative 21 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:12,440 approaches can help both people on probation and staff build 22 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,320 confidence, resilience and reflective practise. 23 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,680 In a nutshell, like applied, theatre is about participation, 24 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,320 it's about power. It's about using theatre to 25 00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:28,640 question the world we live in. It's an inspiring conversation 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,600 that shines a light on the human side of rehabilitation and the 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,520 role creativity can play in helping people imagine a more 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,960 positive future for themselves. Let's get into our conversation 29 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:51,400 with Jenny. Hello and welcome Jennifer to 30 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,320 this episode of the podcast. It's really great to have you 31 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:55,880 here. So could you start by 32 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,520 introducing yourself and telling us about your journey into 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,320 applied theatre and your work with Bareface Theatre? 34 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,080 Hello, yes, I'm Jenny Jennifer. I'm Co founder and Executive 35 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,880 director of Bareface Theatre. We're a community interest 36 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:13,880 company and I first came to Applied Theatre or what's now 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,840 called Applied Theatre back in 2001. 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,680 I was studying at King Alfred's College, which is now the 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,600 University of Winchester, and that's where I had a bit of what 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,720 one might call a light bulb moment. 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,840 And I realised that theatre isn't just something that you 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,600 sit and watch. It's it, it's purposeful, 43 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,040 although, you know, sitting and watching it is also purposeful. 44 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,000 Like I, I really recognised that Plaid Theatre had a completely 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,600 different vibe. It's really, it's powerful and 46 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,400 it shows up in places that you'd never expect. 47 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,880 And I got really interested in how drama lives in our everyday 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,080 life, you know, in, in our communities. 49 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,840 It comes in ritual. It's part of different cultures 50 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,120 around the world. And it was a social impact that 51 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,240 like really blew my mind. I had never seen that before. 52 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,880 And, and really at that point in my life, I was 18, I didn't 53 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,240 really know what I wanted to do. So it was very susceptible to 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,400 this. And I think it's definitely 55 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,720 there that I found my vocation because whilst I was a student 56 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:15,320 with the wonderful Kate Hadley, who is also Bareface Theatre's 57 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,440 Co founder and artistic director, we both volunteered as 58 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,280 students in Winchester Prison at that time and we were working 59 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,640 creatively with the women. There used to be women in the in 60 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,800 Winchester Prison. And it was that experience that 61 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,600 like just completely changed the direction of I guess my life 62 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,400 without sounding over dramatic, although we accept that. 63 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,800 So, yeah. So so that was a a situation 64 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,880 that happened to me, just that experience. 65 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,760 And then from that we went off and had our own lives and then 66 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,080 came back together in 2012 and create a bareface. 67 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,240 And we've evolved a lot since 2012, but the heart of what we 68 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,840 do is stayed the same. So, you know, we're really about 69 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,680 creative action for social change. 70 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:59,840 We're small. We're a small but mighty 71 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,720 community interest company, female LED organisation at the 72 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,600 moment. And we really tried to model 73 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,280 that model. We try to live the values that 74 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,400 we put across, bringing that into to our everyday work life. 75 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,400 We try and align ourselves in all our values and core, core 76 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,640 beliefs. And we, we've got a website. 77 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,880 So, you know, check out the website if you want to know 78 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,480 more. But yeah, have a look. 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,560 It's it's new, it's flashy. And that's great, and I'm sure 80 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,920 people that listen to this episode will want to learn more 81 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,280 about Bareface and we'll make sure that there is a link to 82 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:31,800 your website. Yeah, please do episode so 83 00:04:31,840 --> 00:04:33,240 people will be able to find out more. 84 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,120 I'm intrigued by what was the volunteering that you were doing 85 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:37,480 in Winchester Prison at that point? 86 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,280 That was that real changing moment for you. 87 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:44,200 So one of the lecturers had her own company and it was called 88 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,240 Playing for Time and she had done a lot of performances in 89 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,440 the prison and it was script based. 90 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,720 So we went in as under studies, and I've never been in a prison 91 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,720 before, you know, privilege enough that that hadn't been 92 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,640 part of my life, that I was intrigued. 93 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,560 And there was an element of voyeurism about it. 94 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,160 I'm not going to lie, I think it just changed my complete 95 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,920 perception about what was going on. 96 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,920 And the fact that Winchester Prison is literally on the 97 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,200 doorstep of the road opposite the hospital, right by the 98 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,840 university in one of the most affluent areas in the country. 99 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,680 And it's like, what's going on? Like why do we not know what's 100 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,720 going on? And it was a really amazing 101 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,800 experience. But I think what was really, I 102 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,960 want to say life changing. But I guess like what we 103 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,000 recognise is that script work is really important and they 104 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,200 collaborated with Clean Break, which is another organisation 105 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,440 that you can look up, which was amazing, but it was script. 106 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,920 So it was very much these are your parts, this is who you 107 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,800 play, this is what you're going to do. 108 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,040 I'm going to bring in an audience, they're going to watch 109 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,200 you. We're all going to clap as a 110 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,960 director, I'm going to get the flowers and then you're all 111 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,960 going to go back to prison. And that was something that 112 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,840 didn't quite sit right. I, I'm not saying that that 113 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,120 doesn't have its place because it was profound in lots of 114 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,640 different ways. But I think what Kate and I had 115 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,800 always felt a rub against was the fact that where's the 116 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,960 autonomy? So our work is always devised so 117 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,200 we don't come with scripts. We basically, it gave us that 118 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,960 kind of notion of like, you know what, what else could you do? 119 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,000 But it took us a long trying to get back, to get back into 120 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,920 Winchester Prison. You know, we left in 2002, 121 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,440 three, maybe 4 and didn't get back in until 2018, so. 122 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:23,800 Yeah. And it's really interesting to 123 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,040 hear about the impact that that experience had on your life and 124 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,720 and influence then the the future direction that you took. 125 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,200 So you've touched on it a little bit, Jen, but just for listeners 126 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,520 who are new to this area, what does apply to theatre actually 127 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,960 look like in a probation setting or a women's centre which is run 128 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,720 by the probation service for women? 129 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,000 So I would say that if people are curious and want to go in a 130 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,760 bit deeper about applied theatre, I definitely encourage 131 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:54,880 them to start looking up Paulo Ferrer, amazing, Augusto 132 00:06:54,880 --> 00:07:00,040 Burwell, Grandfather, and there's plenty more, but that's 133 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,640 a really good start. There's also other companies out 134 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,000 there like it's Niche arts and criminal justice is niche, but 135 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,400 there's there's lots out there across the world. 136 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:12,040 So I'd look at geese open class, but I guess we can put these in 137 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,120 the show notes. But just to shout out synergy 138 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,480 tip clean broken odd arts. The National Criminal justice 139 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,680 Arts Alliance is a really good place to start as well if you 140 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,480 want to go down a rabbit hole. But in a nutshell, like applied 141 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,560 theatre is about participation, it's about power. 142 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,880 It's about using theatre to question the world we live in, 143 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,080 and applied theatre will often be in places where you wouldn't 144 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,440 expect it. It's not a traditional kind of 145 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,680 inner theatre space that you would expect. 146 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,800 And for Bear Face, our work in Probation like that really 147 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,480 started to take shape in 2017 with our Creating Change 148 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,120 programme. And I guess what it looks like 149 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,240 to describe it is tricky to do, it is better. 150 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,600 But we're on a podcast, so, you know, I'll try. 151 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,480 We use creative activities, so like games based around drama, 152 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:04,560 you know, there might be some music, art, like different 153 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,880 visual arts, movement. And basically the aim is to sort 154 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,440 of help people explore their strengths, which maybe they've 155 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:15,120 never realised before, empower them to kind of find those again 156 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,040 and build more. Yeah, build more positive 157 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,880 stories about themselves and at the offering of creative ways 158 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,040 into conversations that might be quite hard. 159 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,800 So like building up confidence within ourselves so that we can 160 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,800 feel worthy enough to find our voice and to want to be heard in 161 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,960 a positive way. So the way our programme looked 162 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,679 on probation, it was like it kind of flexed and flowed 163 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,799 between. We started with three-week 164 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,320 programmes, so it was one session a week for three weeks 165 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:46,160 that then after feedback turned into six sessions a week as a 166 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,440 programme and then eight and then back again post COVID, 167 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,480 depending on what was possible. COVID shifted everything and so 168 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,520 did the shift in probation and women's centres. 169 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,640 We lost all the women's centres pretty much after COVID as well. 170 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:06,920 That's another podcast probably. But but to say that like our 171 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,120 approach is playful. We really advocate for laughter 172 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,160 in spaces where it's quite dark. We need the joy. 173 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,400 Like life is dark enough. And I think we have to have 174 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,360 permission to try something different. 175 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,200 And we have the ability to kind of come in and be a bit more 176 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,320 active and and learn by doing. Basically, it's shaped by the 177 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,920 people that are in the room. So we're very person centred. 178 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,080 We we adapt. It's not a top down situation. 179 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,400 We adapt to the dynamic that we have in the room and the vibe of 180 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,040 the women that we have in the space. 181 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,760 It's joyful, but it's forward-looking. 182 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,120 So it's not offence LED. We're not there to talk about 183 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,320 offences. We keep, we keep ourselves safe. 184 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,760 So we use a lot of metaphor, character work. 185 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:48,320 It's always challenged by choice. 186 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,720 You know, we're a trauma informed organisation in terms 187 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,480 of the fact that like no one is ever asked to do something they 188 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,320 don't want to do. And to be quite frank, no, no 189 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,040 one in that room would ever do anything they don't want to do 190 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,040 anyway. So it's all good for our 191 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,120 approach because neither would we, you know, it's about having 192 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,880 an opportunity to correct yourself in ways that come out 193 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,640 of your comfort zone. Try try something a little bit 194 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,440 different. I guess that's the magic of art, 195 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,480 isn't it? Like basically it gives us an 196 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,440 opportunity to express things that maybe is difficult that for 197 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,240 words like to find the words for. 198 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,640 So you are evaluation. What we've really realised is 199 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,440 that it complements the more desk based stuff that probation 200 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,320 we're doing. It's it's not so far removed 201 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,160 from what people are already learning, but you're up and 202 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,480 doing. You're actively, you're kind of 203 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,760 embodying those situations. And that's a really important 204 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,840 element of it, that complementing what probation do 205 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,440 and the importance of partnership working, working 206 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,960 alongside them. Within one of the Level 5 207 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,840 modules that P Quips have to complete, we talk about the 208 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,760 value of creative rehabilitation, building on the 209 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,280 approaches led by the probation officer, and the value of 210 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,360 creativity. I was just wondering, though, 211 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,040 for people that aren't as familiar with probation or the 212 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,960 criminal justice system, hearing about kind of a joyful, creative 213 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,760 way to help women, particularly who are involved in the criminal 214 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,520 justice system. Like if you're a victim of 215 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,360 crime, you might not understand why that's important. 216 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,160 Often there's like a much more punitive narrative in the media. 217 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,720 But I just wonder, touching on assistance research, for 218 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,880 example, about how people leave crime behind, why is it 219 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,400 important? Why is it helpful to do this 220 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,680 creative work? How does it help identity and 221 00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:32,680 desistance? I think desistance is an 222 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:35,960 interesting word, especially for an arts organisation. 223 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,120 We are not claiming that someone comes on a bareface programme 224 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:40,920 and then they're never going to commit crime again. 225 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,520 Like that's not where we're at. And I completely understand that 226 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,520 using the words like joyful and vibrant and laughter in a space 227 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,960 where there's, it's supposed to be punitive. 228 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,720 Some of the women that we work with even struggle when they 229 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,840 first start on our programmes because they're like, I'm here 230 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,880 to be punished, you know, like, why am I allowed to be doing 231 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,440 this? And I think because what we're 232 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,520 trying to do is sort of get to the foundation. 233 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,360 I, I'm not a psychologist really, but you know, as 234 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,560 children and we're redeemed to learn by play, We learn by 235 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:19,520 doing, we learn by role-playing what we see around us. 236 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,200 And I think when you start to think about the reasons why 237 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,040 people end up in probation, specifically women, it's, it's 238 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,480 complex. And I think anything that we can 239 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,320 do to help people in those situations start to build up a 240 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,440 bit more self worth. That is where the foundation is. 241 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,760 When you talk about identity, the work really helps us explore 242 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,000 our identities. And we're not just talking or 243 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:44,600 writing. It's active. 244 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,360 Like I said, it's hand on. We're embodying A practise. 245 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,040 We're we're trying out how we handle everyday situations in a 246 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,720 safe environment. We're really trying to challenge 247 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,120 that thing of this is just who I am. 248 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,840 You know, I'm just like that, that kind of mindset. 249 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,240 It's like if you're told that you're bad all the time from 250 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,400 being young or you're or you didn't get on in school, 251 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,760 ultimately you're just a bad person when really that's not 252 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,480 actually what's going on. And I understand from a victim 253 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,640 perspective that that might be hard to understand, but I do 254 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,240 from my experience, understand that women from in this context 255 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,120 can't. It's deeper than that. 256 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,160 It's deeper than doing something bad to someone else. 257 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,480 And I think these courses, this programme and being creative 258 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,440 helps us to start to see things through a different lens. 259 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,400 It gives us the space to stop the permission, like yes, you're 260 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,640 on probation, but these opportunities are new lens to 261 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,360 look through and you're being asked to do things that you may 262 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,640 never have been asked to do, like play an active exercise 263 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,520 with another group of women, when ultimately being in a group 264 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,200 of women is seen as an intimidating situation. 265 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,280 There's so much to be learnt in those places and we're part of a 266 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,720 much bigger system, like we're all responsible for people's 267 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,200 assistance. But like I said, it's about 268 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,480 safety. These foundation blocks of 269 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,160 building somewhere where it's safe, self belief, having hope 270 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,040 that there's something else that I could do. 271 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,320 We're encouraging hoping strategies and that that's the 272 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,480 kind of thing that will help someone maybe take that out into 273 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,720 the real world. You've got to have safe 274 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,200 environments where people can start to stretch and make 275 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,720 positive risks, and creativity and trying out different 276 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,000 characters and different scenarios gives you that 277 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,160 opportunity. Yeah, that's really helpful. 278 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,640 Thank you some. Really important reflections 279 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,480 there, so thank you. Could you share with us a moment 280 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,600 or an exercise where you saw a creative activity shift 281 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,520 someone's perspective or help them to understand themselves 282 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,480 different? I think what comes to mind, 283 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,200 there's a few. I'll try and keep it quick 284 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,680 because there's a lot there, you know, obviously we otherwise we 285 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:45,360 wouldn't. Have. 286 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:51,200 Doing it for so many years, but sometimes we use digital art to 287 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,000 help. We create a poster for the 288 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,000 individual group members and we'll take a picture of them, 289 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,120 whether it's a picture of their hand or they come up with a 290 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,400 mantra for themselves, like a positive comment. 291 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,120 And then they design what that poster might look like. 292 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,720 And there was one woman that we were working with who's like 293 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,720 super defensive, you know, too cool to take part in stuff, but 294 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,120 was there every week, super guarded. 295 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,680 And then eventually we cracked. She cracked a few smiles and we 296 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,440 knew she was, well, I mean, she was turning up, but she made a 297 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,040 piece where it was a picture of her, fully her, which is often 298 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,000 not what women will do. They'll often just show their 299 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,600 backs or their hands or something that's kind of not as 300 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,040 identifiable. So she was brave in that sense. 301 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,680 And then she wanted it kind of cut down the middle and then had 302 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,120 Phil Mitchell as the other side. And really what she's trying to 303 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,040 represent is that she she had to have a defence. 304 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,480 She felt like she had to also be like a bodyguard or like Phil 305 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,520 Mitchell because of the way that she was having to cope with 306 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,200 services to protect her relationships with her children. 307 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,120 And that was a really big breakthrough moment. 308 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,040 Just through the art, she was able to explain herself more. 309 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,520 She actually carried on doing more art and then shared it with 310 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,520 us. There's a couple more. 311 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,640 One of the things that we we show, we do an exercise about 312 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,600 impulsive behaviour. I won't try and explain it 313 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,040 because it will sound too complicated, but basically it's 314 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,240 a group game. And within this exercise we're 315 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,680 talking about impulsive behaviour. 316 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,560 And, and what happened at the end of it was that this woman 317 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,480 basically recognised that like shoplifting was her thing. 318 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,920 And, you know, she's just like, Oh yeah. 319 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,920 Like when I'm out and I'm out in the shops, it just happens. 320 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,760 Like I just can't help myself. I just have to have it. 321 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,920 I don't know what happens. But from doing the exercise, she 322 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,720 was really able to recognise that actually I'm triggered way 323 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,800 before I even leave the house. Like she could see from the 324 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,840 chain of events that she was actually telling herself that 325 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,560 story. And so from doing a, an exercise 326 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,400 that we used to demonstrate, I guess we're holding hand and we 327 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,280 squeeze, we pass a squeeze. It's much more complicated and 328 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,280 fun than that. But you know, that physical kind 329 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,600 of representation, she just completely was like, yeah, 330 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,400 actually, no. It's like when I get a a brown 331 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,920 envelope through the door and it's a bill or something that I 332 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,359 feel like I can't cope with. My triggers already started and 333 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,319 where do I have a moment to stop and make a different choice? 334 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:19,839 So that was really impressive. I I don't know whether she 335 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,760 continued to go shoplifting after that, but the fact is, is 336 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,280 that we sowed the seed just through playing a game. 337 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:28,680 And it shows that yeah, he's getting that deeper 338 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,080 understanding of herself which previously people might have 339 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,200 questioned. You've recognised that, but you 340 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,480 don't necessarily in yourself view and then. 341 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,640 Taking more ownership or that you've got a bit of a choice in 342 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:40,840 it? Absolutely. 343 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,960 And and replicating that moment of having adrenaline because you 344 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,200 want to win the game or am I going to, am I going to do it? 345 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,400 Am I not going to do it within the game? 346 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,600 You know, actually she was able to recognise those same feelings 347 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,200 within her body of adrenaline and excitement and then be able 348 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,120 to regulate herself to just take a breath and have a moment and 349 00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:03,600 go, what am I actually doing here? 350 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,360 You know, and that's not, we're not replicating shoplifting 351 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,160 scenario. We're playing a completely 352 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,680 different game, but we're using it as a metaphor for impulsive 353 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,640 behaviour. And although she had done stuff 354 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:21,240 around impulse and reactions and and responses, the difference in 355 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,480 her work probation, she'd never felt it. 356 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,160 So it really complimented the work that she was doing and was 357 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,520 able to understand it better. And I've just shared this one 358 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,400 last one with a woman who we worked with who literally came 359 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,760 in. She reminded me of myself when I 360 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,680 was 14. But she came in, she was just 361 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,760 like, didn't really want to be there. 362 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,960 It was quite disruptive, little bit inappropriate of the things 363 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:49,120 she was trying to say. By week 3 she was bang into it. 364 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,160 She was fully like drama was her thing. 365 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,840 She really took to that sort of side of things and since then 366 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,840 she we ended up getting funding to extend the programme which 367 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,680 she came to since then. She then ended up writing her 368 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,400 own autobiographical piece that she performed then as a one 369 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,520 woman show. She did have a support from 370 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,720 another woman who was on probation with her and her 371 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,840 social worker came to see her family, came to see. 372 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,600 It was raw. But it was really amazing the 373 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,360 work that she did and, and she still stays in touch with us. 374 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,560 She still comes and volunteers, She's volunteered with one of 375 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,360 our other programmes and that just showed the mantra of being 376 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:31,240 trauma informed. It's like it's not what have you 377 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,320 done, it's what's happened and and giving someone that space to 378 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,360 actually recognise that there's more to them. 379 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,320 They don't have to have this mask on all the time and they're 380 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,720 capable and there's a real lasting impact on some of these 381 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,680 moments. Giving you the time and space to 382 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,480 warm up to it really as well. Not like one session you're not 383 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,680 fully engaging. You're out giving them that 384 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,800 time. Because I bet there are a number 385 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,000 of people that are reluctant to it initially. 386 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:56,680 There's lots of people that love drama. 387 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:58,800 They feel it's their their calling. 388 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,160 They've always been interested in it. 389 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,280 A lot of people the thought of doing an exercise where they 390 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,120 have to stand up and they have to. 391 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,000 Be loud and vocal and be involved in those things. 392 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,760 It feels like a terrible thing to them and it feels really 393 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,920 uneasy to them. So with the approaches that you 394 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,040 use, you help them to get involved in it and see them. 395 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:17,680 Yeah. And we would never really use 396 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,720 the word drama or theatre that would never normally be. 397 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,080 So no, no, I'm just saying it's like we have it in the in the 398 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,480 title of our business because we're trying to reclaim it. 399 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,120 But ultimately, if we were to initially sit, and same for 400 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:33,680 probation practitioners who are part of the group that's part of 401 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,080 the mission, is that it's like no one has to do anything they 402 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,640 don't want to do. And everything starts a very low 403 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,120 focus. So we end up doing drama and 404 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:43,320 don't even realise you're doing it. 405 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,800 And actually then you can recognise that when you're out 406 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,320 on the street or when you're walking in a supermarket or when 407 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,280 you're getting up in the morning, you might be acting in 408 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,200 some way. You know, when we talk about the 409 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,600 theatre of us, plenty of dramas going on in people's lives. 410 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,080 It doesn't have to be EastEnders, you know, we're not 411 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,200 in probation for no reason like. Different hats we wear in 412 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:05,120 different roles. Yeah, and. 413 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,400 And what hat do we actually prefer? 414 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,080 Which ones do we want to get rid of? 415 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,400 Because who? What is? 416 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,240 Who do we actually want to be? And why have we had to wear 417 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:16,520 them? Because a lot of the time it's 418 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,240 coping strategy. We're just trying to keep 419 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,440 ourselves safe. Kate and I, our background is 420 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,640 working with young people and they definitely don't want to be 421 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,920 in the room. So we work a lot in, in prison 422 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,040 with men. And, and if you, if they, they 423 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,880 would always say, you know, if you ever told me at that week 424 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,200 one that I'd be doing what I'm doing and sitting in week 6, I 425 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,400 would never have believed you and I'd never have come. 426 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,000 But until you give yourself an opportunity to try something 427 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,120 different, you don't know what you're capable of. 428 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,200 So we would never force anyone, but we do know that persistence 429 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,400 and space is important. So in your recent chapter in the 430 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,880 Reflections on Probation edited book, you highlight that staff 431 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,200 benefit from creative approaches too, and we were wondering if 432 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,520 you could share some of the examples that you've learned 433 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,960 about using creativity to support probation practitioners, 434 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,560 their well-being and reflective practise. 435 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:12,440 This is my, this is like almost one of, for me, one of the most 436 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,880 beautiful things that has come out of this work because I think 437 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:22,840 I had no idea that the support needed to be supported, which is 438 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,920 mad. But I also think sometimes the 439 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,200 support don't realise they need to be supported. 440 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,760 And, and from doing this work. One of the things that's quite 441 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,040 unique about our programme is that we requested that female 442 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,000 practitioners were in the room with us. 443 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,080 And through through the work, we really have honed in on the 444 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:45,320 ethics around that. And it was pretty evident early 445 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,880 on in our time and our kind of naivety to probation that the 446 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,280 probation officers would benefit from having their own space. 447 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,640 Because it's quite hard and also quite a unique situation to put 448 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,360 a female probation practitioner in a circle of women in a group 449 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:04,440 when they've never done that programme either. 450 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,760 And I was really aware from an early stage that we needed to do 451 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,160 a programme or at least a session with the probation 452 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,800 practitioners before they came and took part as a supporting 453 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,720 role because it wasn't really for them, but it also wasn't 454 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,320 fair to put them in there. However, I wrote a dissertation 455 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,800 about how important it was for the equality and you can read 456 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,680 that another time. But the benefit of using this 457 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,120 work with probation practitioner, with anyone is the 458 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:34,920 same. You know, I mean, yes, we're all 459 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,120 independent, we're all individuals, we'll all get 460 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,240 something different on different levels and it's not for 461 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,400 everyone. But if we can see the benefit 462 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,240 for, let's say, service users, then why would it not be the 463 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,400 same use for people who are working in the services? 464 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,120 Because the work is adapted to the people. 465 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,200 It's not adapted because you're on probation. 466 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,000 Like we would use the same exercises, same kind of 467 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,240 framework with a senior leadership team for an IT 468 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,320 company. Because it's the people that 469 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,160 flesh out the bones of the session. 470 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,520 It's what's live and I think what's really important about 471 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,280 working with probation practitioners and, and the 472 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,800 beauty that I've seen in this work is that it's a complex 473 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,040 situation working with women on probation, with anyone. 474 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,600 I'll stick to women on probation because that's where we're at. 475 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:33,600 Where do the women who are working with women have to put 476 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,560 their vicarious trauma? Where do they have, Yes, we talk 477 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,240 about reflective practise, but where do you actually have to go 478 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,840 to explore that to just like the women who were on probation 479 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,320 exploring situations for themselves, where do the women 480 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,280 who are working with those women get to do it? 481 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,240 And why would that methodology not still work for them? 482 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,600 And I've seen it work. And the shame is before COVID 483 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,360 we've got such a momentum going with working with staff, mainly 484 00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:06,920 because I said, listen, if you want us to come in, you need to 485 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,160 come and I can't tell you about it, let's do a session. 486 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,120 So we would get all of the women's centres or the team 487 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,080 leaders from all the women's centres and all the 488 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,880 practitioners to come to one place, which was amazing and 489 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,360 quite rare to happen. And it was so enlightening. 490 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,760 And so we did actually have regular sessions booked in 491 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,520 before COVID. But obviously let's not go back 492 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,960 there. But it but it's a culture shift 493 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,600 ultimately to there's huge benefit. 494 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,640 It's the same there's, there's evidence out there. 495 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:42,760 We have evidence and research. And I would just say that if the 496 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,840 if the institution believes that working creatively and giving 497 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,160 women, for example, the space to be able to explore and offload 498 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,880 their stuff using art, artistic, creative methods to talk about 499 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,480 the hard things, then it's not nice to have. 500 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,800 But until the system believes in it, then it's hard. 501 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,120 Yeah, absolutely. You use the term vicarious 502 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,960 trauma when you talk about the experience of probation 503 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,760 practitioners. For our listeners that might be 504 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,400 new to that term, could you explain what vicarious trauma 505 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,760 is? Basically, if you are working 506 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,760 with people with complex needs and complex traumatic stories 507 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:31,080 and you're having to hear and empathise and work with those 508 00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:36,600 stories and experiences, then it's usual. 509 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,120 I would say that some of that effects you in whatever way that 510 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:43,880 might be for you as an individual. 511 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,560 And vicarious trauma just means that it's the residue, for want 512 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,320 of a better word, of other people's experiences that may 513 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,120 then also trigger you in your own experiences or stay with 514 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,360 you. And we're human, we're not 515 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:00,880 robots. And partly the reason why people 516 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,160 come into these jobs is because we care. 517 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,400 Thank you. And I think probably lots of our 518 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,720 P quip listeners or other staff that work for probation, we'd 519 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,600 probably love the opportunity to do some of the sessions that you 520 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,800 talked about because you're right, it is important to be 521 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,800 supported when you're doing this kind of work. 522 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,400 Absolutely. I just wondered, partnership 523 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,080 working is really central to your work, So what does 524 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,360 meaningful collaboration between the Bareface Theatre Company and 525 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:32,160 Probation look like in practise? We're a small organisation and 526 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,880 we're just one small, tiny cog in a much bigger system. 527 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,480 But the work only really happens because of the relationships 528 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,320 that we have built with probation practitioners. 529 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,400 And I guess like if there isn't trust, then the groups don't 530 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,800 happen. Like I said earlier, we try to 531 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,920 work organisationally the same as we would in the room. 532 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,400 It's a relational practise and we we have the respect that when 533 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,240 we were working in women's centres or even after that, 534 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,600 we're not probation practitioners, we're not trained 535 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,360 in that way and we're coming to your space. 536 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,720 So we respect and have mutual respect and try and have clear 537 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,160 communication. That's essential, especially 538 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,840 when I would say applied theatre and probation speak is very 539 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,880 different, but it's also the same. 540 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:21,720 So it's trying to understand one another from those different 541 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,280 perspectives. And let's be honest, there's a 542 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,080 stigma around the arts. We're a fluffy nice to have, but 543 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,600 we're not. And unless you read our robust 544 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,120 research document to understand it from a criminogenic 545 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,760 perspective, then, you know, that multidisciplinary link, 546 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,960 then it's up to me and Kate to try and explain to you that this 547 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,240 isn't just a drama group. But unless, unless we build 548 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,840 relationships that are honest with, with the probation 549 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,320 officers that are on the ground, because ultimately they're, you 550 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,800 know, they're the gatekeepers. Unless they can get the women in 551 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,120 the room, then there's no, you know, and that's kind of been a 552 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:07,200 bit of struggle as well. But you know, it's a partnership 553 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,120 because none of us can do it on our own. 554 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,800 We know our stuff, you know your stuff, and we're all open to 555 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,160 learning from one another. And I think that's kind of like 556 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,200 the beauty of it. You know, we try and keep 557 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,640 flexible. We understand it's hard, but we 558 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,120 also know why are we doing this? Who is it for and why are we 559 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,000 doing it? And ultimately, it's for the 560 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,640 women that we're trying to work with. 561 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,400 Thinking you've got different approaches, different ways of 562 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,000 delivering it, but ultimately you want to see very similar 563 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,800 things and very similar outcomes. 564 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,160 So the language might be different, the environment it 565 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,600 takes place in might be different, but ultimately a very 566 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,680 similar outcome is intended from it. 567 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,120 Yeah, and I think one of the things that has been interesting 568 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,840 is that where before we've maybe been using the space of a 569 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,880 probation office and when we talk about being trauma 570 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,320 informed, it's like actually, yes, there were women's spaces 571 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,120 just for women. But we were able to say, well, 572 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,360 what's open in our local community. 573 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,080 Like if we were in Southampton, we managed to get one of the 574 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,200 programmes in our in an art centre. 575 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,400 When we were in fair and we used an art centre, we partnered with 576 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,040 Hampshire Cultural Trust for venues. 577 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,360 It's like we're a community. Creativity isn't just a bad 578 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,680 about drama and art and music, it's also about how else can we 579 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,320 think about things? What else is possible? 580 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,760 Who can we call upon? And we're really conscious not 581 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,200 to just be like, oh, it's Kate and Jenny from Bareface coming 582 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,360 in to do some fun stuff while you've got 150 people on your 583 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,440 caseload and you haven't had lunch. 584 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,120 We're respectful in the fact that we are coming into a space 585 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,960 where we know that we try and bring some light and joy, but 586 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,560 it's not the be all and end all. And we understand that. 587 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,280 It's hard, you know, and we respect that. 588 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,600 But also if you're looking at the assistance and looking at 589 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,360 longer term rehabilitation, helping that individual to see 590 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,760 that they're part of the local community, so you're delivering 591 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,240 something in the local community, then being welcomed 592 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,560 to be a part of that, to be in that space, all of that's really 593 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,080 important for their future as well. 594 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,040 Isn't it? It's a massive key part of the 595 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,360 programme that we'd really started to embed, but also for 596 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,640 the probation practitioners too, that they were able to. 597 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,240 Then maybe, maybe you could meet the woman that you were supposed 598 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,280 to be meeting in the arts centre for a coffee. 599 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,400 Maybe you could go for a walk. You know, it's, it's a ripple 600 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,320 effect isn't it? Like we are all in it together. 601 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,200 Ultimately we're in it together if we choose to be. 602 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,800 So yeah, absolutely all those things. 603 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,600 Yeah, thank you. So for P quip learners or those 604 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,920 that are new in probation officer training, what do you 605 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,400 think is important that they learn about the value of 606 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,360 creativity in their work or how can they put opportunities to 607 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,920 involve creative approaches in their work? 608 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,680 So it's a good question because like I said, I'm aware that I 609 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,560 come from it from a different angle. 610 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,960 And I would just say that being creative isn't just for artists. 611 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,160 Like we would say we're all artists. 612 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,920 And then people would just roll their eyes and say, so you're 613 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,880 not creative. Like, I think it, it genuinely 614 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,240 is part of everyday life. And that if we can see that 615 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,200 everything we do is creative, it's a creative choice. 616 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,280 Like, I know this is a podcast, but what you've chosen to wear 617 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,320 today is a creative choice. You know, how we choose to do 618 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,840 our hair, what we wear, what we eat, how we speak, how we live 619 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,120 in our house, those sorts of things. 620 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,840 Just remembering that creativity is like a dirty word for other 621 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,000 people. No matter what your skills are, 622 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,200 it's really important to stay curious. 623 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,360 I know that's kind of like a buzzword, but genuinely I'm 624 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,080 really curious about criminal justice and probation and all of 625 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,680 those things. And that's really enriched my 626 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,000 practise as an applied theatre practitioner. 627 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,880 But especially when things feel really structured and rule 628 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:49,560 bound, stay curious about that. Especially if you're coming up 629 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,400 as a student, you've got the opportunity to make change. 630 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,360 If things aren't sitting right, obviously learn the rules first. 631 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,040 But if things don't sit right, you have the opportunity to be 632 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,520 that change. Without sounding too preachy, I 633 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,640 think that's what's really needed is this fresh 634 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,160 perspective. Keep exploring, know that you're 635 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,280 part of a community, explore new approaches. 636 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,960 There's different ways of doing things. 637 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,400 Keep it textured, don't get bogged down. 638 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,840 Oh, excellent advice. So there's some really good 639 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,920 things that you've identified there that they could do in 640 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,840 their own practise. And equally our listeners might 641 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,200 be spread throughout the country or maybe worldwide, who's knows, 642 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,400 But look at what what's available in their local area 643 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,040 because there'll be different organisations so for people to 644 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,840 explore what creative partners are available to them and how 645 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,880 they can make those links. Who's out there? 646 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,160 What are they doing? How can you make it work for 647 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,680 you? Thank you very much. 648 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,080 So we've touched a bit on reflection and reflective 649 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,440 practise, but it's a really core part of the P quip training but 650 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,520 also being a probation officer. So, based on your experience, 651 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,200 what advice would you give to P Quips about developing 652 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,200 reflection and reflective practise? 653 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,040 I would say like take the advice and then find your own way. 654 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,000 I think there's loads of different ways that people can 655 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,000 reflect. I think that that's important as 656 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,199 well as having lots of different ways to do it. 657 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,840 One of the things that I think is almost before the reflective 658 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,400 practise, which might sound basic, is genuinely the 659 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,239 self-care element of it. I could sit and do a reflection 660 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,960 after a session about how something went, but unless I've 661 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,040 had my breakfast and slept well then those answers are pointless 662 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,840 because actually I should have looked after myself better in 663 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,560 order for those things to have gone better. 664 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,080 Do you know what I mean? And I think genuinely, if you 665 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,440 are going to be going into this work, it is really about 666 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,239 fuelling yourself in in whatever way that is. 667 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,840 And that is with food and nourishment and creativity and 668 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,639 colour. Being challenged by the people 669 00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:50,320 that are different from you. New perspectives, you know, that 670 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,480 helps your reflection. Get out of your echo chamber. 671 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,720 Have challenging conversations with people because that's how 672 00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:01,040 we grow. I think it can be really easy to 673 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,200 to get stuck in your ways, and I don't think we can be really 674 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,360 truly reflective if we're just doing the same reflective 675 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,840 questions all the time. Check in with your, check in 676 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,560 with other people. Experiment with different ways 677 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,520 of reflecting. Draw, see what comes out. 678 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,320 No one has to see it, read different things, listen to 679 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,840 different podcasts, dance nobody's. 680 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,920 Watching yeah, that first point you made though is so important 681 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,040 about self-care, starting with self-care. 682 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,640 I really like that as a, as a piece of yes, because if you 683 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,040 don't, then that will impact your reflections the, the way 684 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,040 that you interpret what happened in that scenario and the 685 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,120 decisions that you make about any kind of future practise. 686 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,760 I think if you're not in the right space, that can impact 687 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,400 that. So really good advice. 688 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,280 And this, this, this is the point in the podcast where we 689 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:54,080 give you a special power. We give you a magic wand where 690 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,680 you are able to make one major change to strengthen 691 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,320 rehabilitation or staff. Well. 692 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,080 Being within probation and we're intrigued by how you would use 693 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,640 that, that special power. That's a it's a lot of power. 694 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:14,880 You created a power. I I honestly think like if I was 695 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,400 to change, it would be like a full culture shift of balance. 696 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,720 Yeah, work hard and but also part of the role and 697 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:29,360 responsibility is finding that balance is looking after 698 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,600 yourself. Like I genuinely don't think 699 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,240 that without taking your own self it's the gas mask first 700 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:39,040 situation. It's not appropriate for me to 701 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,840 go and work with women who have complex lives if I have not been 702 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,680 looking after myself the best that I possibly can to be 703 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,280 positioned in that space. Like seriously, it's kind of 704 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,360 small. It's like take a lunch break, 705 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:57,280 leave your desk. If you know, I, I am privileged 706 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,160 in that sense that I'm not necessarily always Dead Space. 707 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,280 So I'm not trying to be patronising, but like, honestly, 708 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,040 getting, getting air helps you to think about how you're going 709 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,840 to help those people next when you come back into the office. 710 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,920 And I see it so often that people just don't have the time 711 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,640 to even go to the loops. Like treat yourself, go for a 712 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,960 wee. I know that sounds ridiculous, 713 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,560 isn't it? Because it was so serious. 714 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,360 It is a serious, serious job. It's complex, but like, you 715 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,680 know, that Be my thing is shift the culture. 716 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,640 Looking after yourself is important. 717 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,840 Otherwise you go off sick. The tension is bad, everything 718 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,440 then domino effects, and then the people that you're trying to 719 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,000 help are left at the bottom of that, you know, and so on. 720 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,040 Your team, Yeah, I think just being healthy and it's part of 721 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,800 your job. Yeah, it's a shame that that's 722 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,560 what your magic wand has to be used for. 723 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:49,720 Almost. That should be. 724 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,920 That should be unwritten. It should be true. 725 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,280 It should be, but it's But it's the culture that's. 726 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,960 What you're using your magic wand for. 727 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,160 Yeah, it's, it's culture, isn't it? 728 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,840 And I think if you've got new people coming up, it's not to 729 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,760 say that self-care club that I can't come into work today 730 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,120 because I've got to do some meditation. 731 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,840 So it's like we've got to work hard, there's no doubt about it. 732 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,000 Like we need grafters. But also, you can only do your 733 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,240 best if you're grafting as hard and looking after yourself. 734 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,640 And I think like you say, it is a really tough job, like really 735 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,720 rewarding. But actually if you're dealing 736 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,800 with a lot of difficult things yourself, you're not going to be 737 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,080 able to do your job in the best way, are you? 738 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,920 Because it's, it's difficult. So you do need to look after 739 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,480 yourself. Staff need to be looked after as 740 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,160 well. Looked after and and just 741 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,640 because you know coming back to your wife, you know who is this 742 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:46,080 for and why are you doing it and participation in creativity and 743 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:52,160 not dirty words. We just wondered, have you got 744 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,720 any books or articles or creative work that you'd 745 00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,960 recommend for our listeners who'd want to explore this area 746 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,920 a bit more? Well, we have a website. 747 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,720 There's also Brené Brown, Anything by her Gab or Mattie's 748 00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:10,440 always so good. There's a new book that has come 749 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,440 out, Reflections on Probation, as this is what we're talking 750 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,480 about, so dig into that. There's another book coming out 751 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,040 called Women Relationships and Criminal Justice. 752 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,880 That's Natalie Ratter and Sarah Waits, so keep your eye up for 753 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:23,720 that. Yeah. 754 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:27,440 Get stuck into Criminal Justice Arts Alliance website. 755 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,840 The Geese Handbook is also really good. 756 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,840 Cassie Kasha Urbananski, Check her out. 757 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,440 That's good. James Thompson. 758 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,240 Yeah. I mean, I could bang on. 759 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,320 Thank you. Lots of recommendations there 760 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,000 and we'll get them in the show notes just before we end then. 761 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,480 Is there anything that you wanted to share today with our 762 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,440 listeners that we haven't had a chance to say? 763 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,320 I just think remember that there's lots to learn, stay 764 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:56,840 open, but also you have got the power to make those culture 765 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,520 shifts. You know the you you do. 766 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,360 That's my final words. Like and make them get stuck in. 767 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,040 Thank you so much, Jen. That was a really interesting 768 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,520 episode and I'm sure our listeners have as well, but 769 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,880 thank you so much for taking the time out to come and speak with 770 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,400 us. Thank you very much, Jen. 771 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:15,600 Oh. Thank you. 772 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,080 Thank you for asking me. Thanks for listening to 773 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,000 Probation Perspectives Insights into community justice. 774 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,240 We hope our conversation with Jennifer Walmsley offered new 775 00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:29,040 ways of thinking about creativity's role in supporting 776 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,960 rehabilitation and staff well-being. 777 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,880 From applied theatre and women's centres to reflective practise 778 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,640 with practitioners, we hope this episode showed how creativity 779 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,040 can strengthen the relationships at the heart of probation work. 780 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,360 If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a 781 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,880 review, and share it with colleagues or learners who might 782 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,600 find it valuable. We always welcome your thoughts, 783 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:52,560 reflections, and guest suggestions. 784 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,560 A huge thank you to Jenny and the team at Bareface Theatre for 785 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,520 the important and imaginative work they bring to the sector, 786 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,560 and to the team behind Probation Perspectives for making this 787 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,480 podcast possible. We'll be back soon with more 788 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,960 conversations that explore the practise, purpose and people 789 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,240 shaping probation and community justice. 790 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,280 Until next time, take care.