Welcome to probation perspectives, insights into
community justice, the podcast where we explore the people,
ideas and practises shaping probation, rehabilitation and
community justice today, whether.
You're AP Quip Learner, a seasoned practitioner simply
curious about how creativity intersects with criminal
justice. This is your space for
reflective conversations and practical insights.
In today's episode, we're joined by Jennifer Warmsley, Co
Director of Bareface Theatre, whose work in applied theatre
has supported people on probation, women in the justice
system, and practitioners. We dive into how creativity can
open up new ways of seeing ourselves, shifting identity,
and supporting desistance. The work really helps us explore
our identities and it's active, it's hands on, We're embodying A
practise, we're we're trying out how we handle everyday
situations in a safe environment.
These courses, this programme and being creative helps us to
start to see things through a different lens.
We talk about the value of applied theatre and how creative
approaches can help both people on probation and staff build
confidence, resilience and reflective practise.
In a nutshell, like applied, theatre is about participation,
it's about power. It's about using theatre to
question the world we live in. It's an inspiring conversation
that shines a light on the human side of rehabilitation and the
role creativity can play in helping people imagine a more
positive future for themselves. Let's get into our conversation
with Jenny. Hello and welcome Jennifer to
this episode of the podcast. It's really great to have you
here. So could you start by
introducing yourself and telling us about your journey into
applied theatre and your work with Bareface Theatre?
Hello, yes, I'm Jenny Jennifer. I'm Co founder and Executive
director of Bareface Theatre. We're a community interest
company and I first came to Applied Theatre or what's now
called Applied Theatre back in 2001.
I was studying at King Alfred's College, which is now the
University of Winchester, and that's where I had a bit of what
one might call a light bulb moment.
And I realised that theatre isn't just something that you
sit and watch. It's it, it's purposeful,
although, you know, sitting and watching it is also purposeful.
Like I, I really recognised that Plaid Theatre had a completely
different vibe. It's really, it's powerful and
it shows up in places that you'd never expect.
And I got really interested in how drama lives in our everyday
life, you know, in, in our communities.
It comes in ritual. It's part of different cultures
around the world. And it was a social impact that
like really blew my mind. I had never seen that before.
And, and really at that point in my life, I was 18, I didn't
really know what I wanted to do. So it was very susceptible to
this. And I think it's definitely
there that I found my vocation because whilst I was a student
with the wonderful Kate Hadley, who is also Bareface Theatre's
Co founder and artistic director, we both volunteered as
students in Winchester Prison at that time and we were working
creatively with the women. There used to be women in the in
Winchester Prison. And it was that experience that
like just completely changed the direction of I guess my life
without sounding over dramatic, although we accept that.
So, yeah. So so that was a a situation
that happened to me, just that experience.
And then from that we went off and had our own lives and then
came back together in 2012 and create a bareface.
And we've evolved a lot since 2012, but the heart of what we
do is stayed the same. So, you know, we're really about
creative action for social change.
We're small. We're a small but mighty
community interest company, female LED organisation at the
moment. And we really tried to model
that model. We try to live the values that
we put across, bringing that into to our everyday work life.
We try and align ourselves in all our values and core, core
beliefs. And we, we've got a website.
So, you know, check out the website if you want to know
more. But yeah, have a look.
It's it's new, it's flashy. And that's great, and I'm sure
people that listen to this episode will want to learn more
about Bareface and we'll make sure that there is a link to
your website. Yeah, please do episode so
people will be able to find out more.
I'm intrigued by what was the volunteering that you were doing
in Winchester Prison at that point?
That was that real changing moment for you.
So one of the lecturers had her own company and it was called
Playing for Time and she had done a lot of performances in
the prison and it was script based.
So we went in as under studies, and I've never been in a prison
before, you know, privilege enough that that hadn't been
part of my life, that I was intrigued.
And there was an element of voyeurism about it.
I'm not going to lie, I think it just changed my complete
perception about what was going on.
And the fact that Winchester Prison is literally on the
doorstep of the road opposite the hospital, right by the
university in one of the most affluent areas in the country.
And it's like, what's going on? Like why do we not know what's
going on? And it was a really amazing
experience. But I think what was really, I
want to say life changing. But I guess like what we
recognise is that script work is really important and they
collaborated with Clean Break, which is another organisation
that you can look up, which was amazing, but it was script.
So it was very much these are your parts, this is who you
play, this is what you're going to do.
I'm going to bring in an audience, they're going to watch
you. We're all going to clap as a
director, I'm going to get the flowers and then you're all
going to go back to prison. And that was something that
didn't quite sit right. I, I'm not saying that that
doesn't have its place because it was profound in lots of
different ways. But I think what Kate and I had
always felt a rub against was the fact that where's the
autonomy? So our work is always devised so
we don't come with scripts. We basically, it gave us that
kind of notion of like, you know what, what else could you do?
But it took us a long trying to get back, to get back into
Winchester Prison. You know, we left in 2002,
three, maybe 4 and didn't get back in until 2018, so.
Yeah. And it's really interesting to
hear about the impact that that experience had on your life and
and influence then the the future direction that you took.
So you've touched on it a little bit, Jen, but just for listeners
who are new to this area, what does apply to theatre actually
look like in a probation setting or a women's centre which is run
by the probation service for women?
So I would say that if people are curious and want to go in a
bit deeper about applied theatre, I definitely encourage
them to start looking up Paulo Ferrer, amazing, Augusto
Burwell, Grandfather, and there's plenty more, but that's
a really good start. There's also other companies out
there like it's Niche arts and criminal justice is niche, but
there's there's lots out there across the world.
So I'd look at geese open class, but I guess we can put these in
the show notes. But just to shout out synergy
tip clean broken odd arts. The National Criminal justice
Arts Alliance is a really good place to start as well if you
want to go down a rabbit hole. But in a nutshell, like applied
theatre is about participation, it's about power.
It's about using theatre to question the world we live in,
and applied theatre will often be in places where you wouldn't
expect it. It's not a traditional kind of
inner theatre space that you would expect.
And for Bear Face, our work in Probation like that really
started to take shape in 2017 with our Creating Change
programme. And I guess what it looks like
to describe it is tricky to do, it is better.
But we're on a podcast, so, you know, I'll try.
We use creative activities, so like games based around drama,
you know, there might be some music, art, like different
visual arts, movement. And basically the aim is to sort
of help people explore their strengths, which maybe they've
never realised before, empower them to kind of find those again
and build more. Yeah, build more positive
stories about themselves and at the offering of creative ways
into conversations that might be quite hard.
So like building up confidence within ourselves so that we can
feel worthy enough to find our voice and to want to be heard in
a positive way. So the way our programme looked
on probation, it was like it kind of flexed and flowed
between. We started with three-week
programmes, so it was one session a week for three weeks
that then after feedback turned into six sessions a week as a
programme and then eight and then back again post COVID,
depending on what was possible. COVID shifted everything and so
did the shift in probation and women's centres.
We lost all the women's centres pretty much after COVID as well.
That's another podcast probably. But but to say that like our
approach is playful. We really advocate for laughter
in spaces where it's quite dark. We need the joy.
Like life is dark enough. And I think we have to have
permission to try something different.
And we have the ability to kind of come in and be a bit more
active and and learn by doing. Basically, it's shaped by the
people that are in the room. So we're very person centred.
We we adapt. It's not a top down situation.
We adapt to the dynamic that we have in the room and the vibe of
the women that we have in the space.
It's joyful, but it's forward-looking.
So it's not offence LED. We're not there to talk about
offences. We keep, we keep ourselves safe.
So we use a lot of metaphor, character work.
It's always challenged by choice.
You know, we're a trauma informed organisation in terms
of the fact that like no one is ever asked to do something they
don't want to do. And to be quite frank, no, no
one in that room would ever do anything they don't want to do
anyway. So it's all good for our
approach because neither would we, you know, it's about having
an opportunity to correct yourself in ways that come out
of your comfort zone. Try try something a little bit
different. I guess that's the magic of art,
isn't it? Like basically it gives us an
opportunity to express things that maybe is difficult that for
words like to find the words for.
So you are evaluation. What we've really realised is
that it complements the more desk based stuff that probation
we're doing. It's it's not so far removed
from what people are already learning, but you're up and
doing. You're actively, you're kind of
embodying those situations. And that's a really important
element of it, that complementing what probation do
and the importance of partnership working, working
alongside them. Within one of the Level 5
modules that P Quips have to complete, we talk about the
value of creative rehabilitation, building on the
approaches led by the probation officer, and the value of
creativity. I was just wondering, though,
for people that aren't as familiar with probation or the
criminal justice system, hearing about kind of a joyful, creative
way to help women, particularly who are involved in the criminal
justice system. Like if you're a victim of
crime, you might not understand why that's important.
Often there's like a much more punitive narrative in the media.
But I just wonder, touching on assistance research, for
example, about how people leave crime behind, why is it
important? Why is it helpful to do this
creative work? How does it help identity and
desistance? I think desistance is an
interesting word, especially for an arts organisation.
We are not claiming that someone comes on a bareface programme
and then they're never going to commit crime again.
Like that's not where we're at. And I completely understand that
using the words like joyful and vibrant and laughter in a space
where there's, it's supposed to be punitive.
Some of the women that we work with even struggle when they
first start on our programmes because they're like, I'm here
to be punished, you know, like, why am I allowed to be doing
this? And I think because what we're
trying to do is sort of get to the foundation.
I, I'm not a psychologist really, but you know, as
children and we're redeemed to learn by play, We learn by
doing, we learn by role-playing what we see around us.
And I think when you start to think about the reasons why
people end up in probation, specifically women, it's, it's
complex. And I think anything that we can
do to help people in those situations start to build up a
bit more self worth. That is where the foundation is.
When you talk about identity, the work really helps us explore
our identities. And we're not just talking or
writing. It's active.
Like I said, it's hand on. We're embodying A practise.
We're we're trying out how we handle everyday situations in a
safe environment. We're really trying to challenge
that thing of this is just who I am.
You know, I'm just like that, that kind of mindset.
It's like if you're told that you're bad all the time from
being young or you're or you didn't get on in school,
ultimately you're just a bad person when really that's not
actually what's going on. And I understand from a victim
perspective that that might be hard to understand, but I do
from my experience, understand that women from in this context
can't. It's deeper than that.
It's deeper than doing something bad to someone else.
And I think these courses, this programme and being creative
helps us to start to see things through a different lens.
It gives us the space to stop the permission, like yes, you're
on probation, but these opportunities are new lens to
look through and you're being asked to do things that you may
never have been asked to do, like play an active exercise
with another group of women, when ultimately being in a group
of women is seen as an intimidating situation.
There's so much to be learnt in those places and we're part of a
much bigger system, like we're all responsible for people's
assistance. But like I said, it's about
safety. These foundation blocks of
building somewhere where it's safe, self belief, having hope
that there's something else that I could do.
We're encouraging hoping strategies and that that's the
kind of thing that will help someone maybe take that out into
the real world. You've got to have safe
environments where people can start to stretch and make
positive risks, and creativity and trying out different
characters and different scenarios gives you that
opportunity. Yeah, that's really helpful.
Thank you some. Really important reflections
there, so thank you. Could you share with us a moment
or an exercise where you saw a creative activity shift
someone's perspective or help them to understand themselves
different? I think what comes to mind,
there's a few. I'll try and keep it quick
because there's a lot there, you know, obviously we otherwise we
wouldn't. Have.
Doing it for so many years, but sometimes we use digital art to
help. We create a poster for the
individual group members and we'll take a picture of them,
whether it's a picture of their hand or they come up with a
mantra for themselves, like a positive comment.
And then they design what that poster might look like.
And there was one woman that we were working with who's like
super defensive, you know, too cool to take part in stuff, but
was there every week, super guarded.
And then eventually we cracked. She cracked a few smiles and we
knew she was, well, I mean, she was turning up, but she made a
piece where it was a picture of her, fully her, which is often
not what women will do. They'll often just show their
backs or their hands or something that's kind of not as
identifiable. So she was brave in that sense.
And then she wanted it kind of cut down the middle and then had
Phil Mitchell as the other side. And really what she's trying to
represent is that she she had to have a defence.
She felt like she had to also be like a bodyguard or like Phil
Mitchell because of the way that she was having to cope with
services to protect her relationships with her children.
And that was a really big breakthrough moment.
Just through the art, she was able to explain herself more.
She actually carried on doing more art and then shared it with
us. There's a couple more.
One of the things that we we show, we do an exercise about
impulsive behaviour. I won't try and explain it
because it will sound too complicated, but basically it's
a group game. And within this exercise we're
talking about impulsive behaviour.
And, and what happened at the end of it was that this woman
basically recognised that like shoplifting was her thing.
And, you know, she's just like, Oh yeah.
Like when I'm out and I'm out in the shops, it just happens.
Like I just can't help myself. I just have to have it.
I don't know what happens. But from doing the exercise, she
was really able to recognise that actually I'm triggered way
before I even leave the house. Like she could see from the
chain of events that she was actually telling herself that
story. And so from doing a, an exercise
that we used to demonstrate, I guess we're holding hand and we
squeeze, we pass a squeeze. It's much more complicated and
fun than that. But you know, that physical kind
of representation, she just completely was like, yeah,
actually, no. It's like when I get a a brown
envelope through the door and it's a bill or something that I
feel like I can't cope with. My triggers already started and
where do I have a moment to stop and make a different choice?
So that was really impressive. I I don't know whether she
continued to go shoplifting after that, but the fact is, is
that we sowed the seed just through playing a game.
And it shows that yeah, he's getting that deeper
understanding of herself which previously people might have
questioned. You've recognised that, but you
don't necessarily in yourself view and then.
Taking more ownership or that you've got a bit of a choice in
it? Absolutely.
And and replicating that moment of having adrenaline because you
want to win the game or am I going to, am I going to do it?
Am I not going to do it within the game?
You know, actually she was able to recognise those same feelings
within her body of adrenaline and excitement and then be able
to regulate herself to just take a breath and have a moment and
go, what am I actually doing here?
You know, and that's not, we're not replicating shoplifting
scenario. We're playing a completely
different game, but we're using it as a metaphor for impulsive
behaviour. And although she had done stuff
around impulse and reactions and and responses, the difference in
her work probation, she'd never felt it.
So it really complimented the work that she was doing and was
able to understand it better. And I've just shared this one
last one with a woman who we worked with who literally came
in. She reminded me of myself when I
was 14. But she came in, she was just
like, didn't really want to be there.
It was quite disruptive, little bit inappropriate of the things
she was trying to say. By week 3 she was bang into it.
She was fully like drama was her thing.
She really took to that sort of side of things and since then
she we ended up getting funding to extend the programme which
she came to since then. She then ended up writing her
own autobiographical piece that she performed then as a one
woman show. She did have a support from
another woman who was on probation with her and her
social worker came to see her family, came to see.
It was raw. But it was really amazing the
work that she did and, and she still stays in touch with us.
She still comes and volunteers, She's volunteered with one of
our other programmes and that just showed the mantra of being
trauma informed. It's like it's not what have you
done, it's what's happened and and giving someone that space to
actually recognise that there's more to them.
They don't have to have this mask on all the time and they're
capable and there's a real lasting impact on some of these
moments. Giving you the time and space to
warm up to it really as well. Not like one session you're not
fully engaging. You're out giving them that
time. Because I bet there are a number
of people that are reluctant to it initially.
There's lots of people that love drama.
They feel it's their their calling.
They've always been interested in it.
A lot of people the thought of doing an exercise where they
have to stand up and they have to.
Be loud and vocal and be involved in those things.
It feels like a terrible thing to them and it feels really
uneasy to them. So with the approaches that you
use, you help them to get involved in it and see them.
Yeah. And we would never really use
the word drama or theatre that would never normally be.
So no, no, I'm just saying it's like we have it in the in the
title of our business because we're trying to reclaim it.
But ultimately, if we were to initially sit, and same for
probation practitioners who are part of the group that's part of
the mission, is that it's like no one has to do anything they
don't want to do. And everything starts a very low
focus. So we end up doing drama and
don't even realise you're doing it.
And actually then you can recognise that when you're out
on the street or when you're walking in a supermarket or when
you're getting up in the morning, you might be acting in
some way. You know, when we talk about the
theatre of us, plenty of dramas going on in people's lives.
It doesn't have to be EastEnders, you know, we're not
in probation for no reason like. Different hats we wear in
different roles. Yeah, and.
And what hat do we actually prefer?
Which ones do we want to get rid of?
Because who? What is?
Who do we actually want to be? And why have we had to wear
them? Because a lot of the time it's
coping strategy. We're just trying to keep
ourselves safe. Kate and I, our background is
working with young people and they definitely don't want to be
in the room. So we work a lot in, in prison
with men. And, and if you, if they, they
would always say, you know, if you ever told me at that week
one that I'd be doing what I'm doing and sitting in week 6, I
would never have believed you and I'd never have come.
But until you give yourself an opportunity to try something
different, you don't know what you're capable of.
So we would never force anyone, but we do know that persistence
and space is important. So in your recent chapter in the
Reflections on Probation edited book, you highlight that staff
benefit from creative approaches too, and we were wondering if
you could share some of the examples that you've learned
about using creativity to support probation practitioners,
their well-being and reflective practise.
This is my, this is like almost one of, for me, one of the most
beautiful things that has come out of this work because I think
I had no idea that the support needed to be supported, which is
mad. But I also think sometimes the
support don't realise they need to be supported.
And, and from doing this work. One of the things that's quite
unique about our programme is that we requested that female
practitioners were in the room with us.
And through through the work, we really have honed in on the
ethics around that. And it was pretty evident early
on in our time and our kind of naivety to probation that the
probation officers would benefit from having their own space.
Because it's quite hard and also quite a unique situation to put
a female probation practitioner in a circle of women in a group
when they've never done that programme either.
And I was really aware from an early stage that we needed to do
a programme or at least a session with the probation
practitioners before they came and took part as a supporting
role because it wasn't really for them, but it also wasn't
fair to put them in there. However, I wrote a dissertation
about how important it was for the equality and you can read
that another time. But the benefit of using this
work with probation practitioner, with anyone is the
same. You know, I mean, yes, we're all
independent, we're all individuals, we'll all get
something different on different levels and it's not for
everyone. But if we can see the benefit
for, let's say, service users, then why would it not be the
same use for people who are working in the services?
Because the work is adapted to the people.
It's not adapted because you're on probation.
Like we would use the same exercises, same kind of
framework with a senior leadership team for an IT
company. Because it's the people that
flesh out the bones of the session.
It's what's live and I think what's really important about
working with probation practitioners and, and the
beauty that I've seen in this work is that it's a complex
situation working with women on probation, with anyone.
I'll stick to women on probation because that's where we're at.
Where do the women who are working with women have to put
their vicarious trauma? Where do they have, Yes, we talk
about reflective practise, but where do you actually have to go
to explore that to just like the women who were on probation
exploring situations for themselves, where do the women
who are working with those women get to do it?
And why would that methodology not still work for them?
And I've seen it work. And the shame is before COVID
we've got such a momentum going with working with staff, mainly
because I said, listen, if you want us to come in, you need to
come and I can't tell you about it, let's do a session.
So we would get all of the women's centres or the team
leaders from all the women's centres and all the
practitioners to come to one place, which was amazing and
quite rare to happen. And it was so enlightening.
And so we did actually have regular sessions booked in
before COVID. But obviously let's not go back
there. But it but it's a culture shift
ultimately to there's huge benefit.
It's the same there's, there's evidence out there.
We have evidence and research. And I would just say that if the
if the institution believes that working creatively and giving
women, for example, the space to be able to explore and offload
their stuff using art, artistic, creative methods to talk about
the hard things, then it's not nice to have.
But until the system believes in it, then it's hard.
Yeah, absolutely. You use the term vicarious
trauma when you talk about the experience of probation
practitioners. For our listeners that might be
new to that term, could you explain what vicarious trauma
is? Basically, if you are working
with people with complex needs and complex traumatic stories
and you're having to hear and empathise and work with those
stories and experiences, then it's usual.
I would say that some of that effects you in whatever way that
might be for you as an individual.
And vicarious trauma just means that it's the residue, for want
of a better word, of other people's experiences that may
then also trigger you in your own experiences or stay with
you. And we're human, we're not
robots. And partly the reason why people
come into these jobs is because we care.
Thank you. And I think probably lots of our
P quip listeners or other staff that work for probation, we'd
probably love the opportunity to do some of the sessions that you
talked about because you're right, it is important to be
supported when you're doing this kind of work.
Absolutely. I just wondered, partnership
working is really central to your work, So what does
meaningful collaboration between the Bareface Theatre Company and
Probation look like in practise? We're a small organisation and
we're just one small, tiny cog in a much bigger system.
But the work only really happens because of the relationships
that we have built with probation practitioners.
And I guess like if there isn't trust, then the groups don't
happen. Like I said earlier, we try to
work organisationally the same as we would in the room.
It's a relational practise and we we have the respect that when
we were working in women's centres or even after that,
we're not probation practitioners, we're not trained
in that way and we're coming to your space.
So we respect and have mutual respect and try and have clear
communication. That's essential, especially
when I would say applied theatre and probation speak is very
different, but it's also the same.
So it's trying to understand one another from those different
perspectives. And let's be honest, there's a
stigma around the arts. We're a fluffy nice to have, but
we're not. And unless you read our robust
research document to understand it from a criminogenic
perspective, then, you know, that multidisciplinary link,
then it's up to me and Kate to try and explain to you that this
isn't just a drama group. But unless, unless we build
relationships that are honest with, with the probation
officers that are on the ground, because ultimately they're, you
know, they're the gatekeepers. Unless they can get the women in
the room, then there's no, you know, and that's kind of been a
bit of struggle as well. But you know, it's a partnership
because none of us can do it on our own.
We know our stuff, you know your stuff, and we're all open to
learning from one another. And I think that's kind of like
the beauty of it. You know, we try and keep
flexible. We understand it's hard, but we
also know why are we doing this? Who is it for and why are we
doing it? And ultimately, it's for the
women that we're trying to work with.
Thinking you've got different approaches, different ways of
delivering it, but ultimately you want to see very similar
things and very similar outcomes.
So the language might be different, the environment it
takes place in might be different, but ultimately a very
similar outcome is intended from it.
Yeah, and I think one of the things that has been interesting
is that where before we've maybe been using the space of a
probation office and when we talk about being trauma
informed, it's like actually, yes, there were women's spaces
just for women. But we were able to say, well,
what's open in our local community.
Like if we were in Southampton, we managed to get one of the
programmes in our in an art centre.
When we were in fair and we used an art centre, we partnered with
Hampshire Cultural Trust for venues.
It's like we're a community. Creativity isn't just a bad
about drama and art and music, it's also about how else can we
think about things? What else is possible?
Who can we call upon? And we're really conscious not
to just be like, oh, it's Kate and Jenny from Bareface coming
in to do some fun stuff while you've got 150 people on your
caseload and you haven't had lunch.
We're respectful in the fact that we are coming into a space
where we know that we try and bring some light and joy, but
it's not the be all and end all. And we understand that.
It's hard, you know, and we respect that.
But also if you're looking at the assistance and looking at
longer term rehabilitation, helping that individual to see
that they're part of the local community, so you're delivering
something in the local community, then being welcomed
to be a part of that, to be in that space, all of that's really
important for their future as well.
Isn't it? It's a massive key part of the
programme that we'd really started to embed, but also for
the probation practitioners too, that they were able to.
Then maybe, maybe you could meet the woman that you were supposed
to be meeting in the arts centre for a coffee.
Maybe you could go for a walk. You know, it's, it's a ripple
effect isn't it? Like we are all in it together.
Ultimately we're in it together if we choose to be.
So yeah, absolutely all those things.
Yeah, thank you. So for P quip learners or those
that are new in probation officer training, what do you
think is important that they learn about the value of
creativity in their work or how can they put opportunities to
involve creative approaches in their work?
So it's a good question because like I said, I'm aware that I
come from it from a different angle.
And I would just say that being creative isn't just for artists.
Like we would say we're all artists.
And then people would just roll their eyes and say, so you're
not creative. Like, I think it, it genuinely
is part of everyday life. And that if we can see that
everything we do is creative, it's a creative choice.
Like, I know this is a podcast, but what you've chosen to wear
today is a creative choice. You know, how we choose to do
our hair, what we wear, what we eat, how we speak, how we live
in our house, those sorts of things.
Just remembering that creativity is like a dirty word for other
people. No matter what your skills are,
it's really important to stay curious.
I know that's kind of like a buzzword, but genuinely I'm
really curious about criminal justice and probation and all of
those things. And that's really enriched my
practise as an applied theatre practitioner.
But especially when things feel really structured and rule
bound, stay curious about that. Especially if you're coming up
as a student, you've got the opportunity to make change.
If things aren't sitting right, obviously learn the rules first.
But if things don't sit right, you have the opportunity to be
that change. Without sounding too preachy, I
think that's what's really needed is this fresh
perspective. Keep exploring, know that you're
part of a community, explore new approaches.
There's different ways of doing things.
Keep it textured, don't get bogged down.
Oh, excellent advice. So there's some really good
things that you've identified there that they could do in
their own practise. And equally our listeners might
be spread throughout the country or maybe worldwide, who's knows,
But look at what what's available in their local area
because there'll be different organisations so for people to
explore what creative partners are available to them and how
they can make those links. Who's out there?
What are they doing? How can you make it work for
you? Thank you very much.
So we've touched a bit on reflection and reflective
practise, but it's a really core part of the P quip training but
also being a probation officer. So, based on your experience,
what advice would you give to P Quips about developing
reflection and reflective practise?
I would say like take the advice and then find your own way.
I think there's loads of different ways that people can
reflect. I think that that's important as
well as having lots of different ways to do it.
One of the things that I think is almost before the reflective
practise, which might sound basic, is genuinely the
self-care element of it. I could sit and do a reflection
after a session about how something went, but unless I've
had my breakfast and slept well then those answers are pointless
because actually I should have looked after myself better in
order for those things to have gone better.
Do you know what I mean? And I think genuinely, if you
are going to be going into this work, it is really about
fuelling yourself in in whatever way that is.
And that is with food and nourishment and creativity and
colour. Being challenged by the people
that are different from you. New perspectives, you know, that
helps your reflection. Get out of your echo chamber.
Have challenging conversations with people because that's how
we grow. I think it can be really easy to
to get stuck in your ways, and I don't think we can be really
truly reflective if we're just doing the same reflective
questions all the time. Check in with your, check in
with other people. Experiment with different ways
of reflecting. Draw, see what comes out.
No one has to see it, read different things, listen to
different podcasts, dance nobody's.
Watching yeah, that first point you made though is so important
about self-care, starting with self-care.
I really like that as a, as a piece of yes, because if you
don't, then that will impact your reflections the, the way
that you interpret what happened in that scenario and the
decisions that you make about any kind of future practise.
I think if you're not in the right space, that can impact
that. So really good advice.
And this, this, this is the point in the podcast where we
give you a special power. We give you a magic wand where
you are able to make one major change to strengthen
rehabilitation or staff. Well.
Being within probation and we're intrigued by how you would use
that, that special power. That's a it's a lot of power.
You created a power. I I honestly think like if I was
to change, it would be like a full culture shift of balance.
Yeah, work hard and but also part of the role and
responsibility is finding that balance is looking after
yourself. Like I genuinely don't think
that without taking your own self it's the gas mask first
situation. It's not appropriate for me to
go and work with women who have complex lives if I have not been
looking after myself the best that I possibly can to be
positioned in that space. Like seriously, it's kind of
small. It's like take a lunch break,
leave your desk. If you know, I, I am privileged
in that sense that I'm not necessarily always Dead Space.
So I'm not trying to be patronising, but like, honestly,
getting, getting air helps you to think about how you're going
to help those people next when you come back into the office.
And I see it so often that people just don't have the time
to even go to the loops. Like treat yourself, go for a
wee. I know that sounds ridiculous,
isn't it? Because it was so serious.
It is a serious, serious job. It's complex, but like, you
know, that Be my thing is shift the culture.
Looking after yourself is important.
Otherwise you go off sick. The tension is bad, everything
then domino effects, and then the people that you're trying to
help are left at the bottom of that, you know, and so on.
Your team, Yeah, I think just being healthy and it's part of
your job. Yeah, it's a shame that that's
what your magic wand has to be used for.
Almost. That should be.
That should be unwritten. It should be true.
It should be, but it's But it's the culture that's.
What you're using your magic wand for.
Yeah, it's, it's culture, isn't it?
And I think if you've got new people coming up, it's not to
say that self-care club that I can't come into work today
because I've got to do some meditation.
So it's like we've got to work hard, there's no doubt about it.
Like we need grafters. But also, you can only do your
best if you're grafting as hard and looking after yourself.
And I think like you say, it is a really tough job, like really
rewarding. But actually if you're dealing
with a lot of difficult things yourself, you're not going to be
able to do your job in the best way, are you?
Because it's, it's difficult. So you do need to look after
yourself. Staff need to be looked after as
well. Looked after and and just
because you know coming back to your wife, you know who is this
for and why are you doing it and participation in creativity and
not dirty words. We just wondered, have you got
any books or articles or creative work that you'd
recommend for our listeners who'd want to explore this area
a bit more? Well, we have a website.
There's also Brené Brown, Anything by her Gab or Mattie's
always so good. There's a new book that has come
out, Reflections on Probation, as this is what we're talking
about, so dig into that. There's another book coming out
called Women Relationships and Criminal Justice.
That's Natalie Ratter and Sarah Waits, so keep your eye up for
that. Yeah.
Get stuck into Criminal Justice Arts Alliance website.
The Geese Handbook is also really good.
Cassie Kasha Urbananski, Check her out.
That's good. James Thompson.
Yeah. I mean, I could bang on.
Thank you. Lots of recommendations there
and we'll get them in the show notes just before we end then.
Is there anything that you wanted to share today with our
listeners that we haven't had a chance to say?
I just think remember that there's lots to learn, stay
open, but also you have got the power to make those culture
shifts. You know the you you do.
That's my final words. Like and make them get stuck in.
Thank you so much, Jen. That was a really interesting
episode and I'm sure our listeners have as well, but
thank you so much for taking the time out to come and speak with
us. Thank you very much, Jen.
Oh. Thank you.
Thank you for asking me. Thanks for listening to
Probation Perspectives Insights into community justice.
We hope our conversation with Jennifer Walmsley offered new
ways of thinking about creativity's role in supporting
rehabilitation and staff well-being.
From applied theatre and women's centres to reflective practise
with practitioners, we hope this episode showed how creativity
can strengthen the relationships at the heart of probation work.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a
review, and share it with colleagues or learners who might
find it valuable. We always welcome your thoughts,
reflections, and guest suggestions.
A huge thank you to Jenny and the team at Bareface Theatre for
the important and imaginative work they bring to the sector,
and to the team behind Probation Perspectives for making this
podcast possible. We'll be back soon with more
conversations that explore the practise, purpose and people
shaping probation and community justice.
Until next time, take care.