Welcome to Probation Perspectives, insights into
Community Justice, the podcast where we dive into the world of
probation, rehabilitation and community justice.
Each episode we explore the themes, challenges and skills to
underpin effective probation practise.
Whether you're just starting out on the P Quip programme, have
years of experience in the field, or are simply curious
about the criminal justice system, this podcast is your
place for practical insights, expert perspectives, and
meaningful conversations. In today's episode, we're
talking about parole, a process that can be complex,
controversial, and often misunderstood.
We're joined by Robert McKeon from the Parole Board, who
brings a wealth of experience and an insider's view on how
decisions are made, what the role of probation is in the
process, and how practitioners can best support people through
it. Always try and think about what
it is you don't know. Really check you haven't just
focused on these other convictions and that's it, that
you've really looked at somebody's life and and
understood what they're about. Rob gives us a clear overview of
how the Parole Board operates, explains some recent changes,
and shares some brilliant advice on how probation practitioners
can effectively contribute to parole reviews and hearings.
If it's your first oral hearing, tell the parole board panel it's
your first oral hearing. We do a lot of training, but
don't try and fudge the answer if you don't know the answer.
You're you're allowed to say I don't know.
We also explore the complexities of making sense of risk and the
differing definitions of the term.
We focus on on past, the present of the future.
Once you've worked out the past and how the present has impacted
on past behaviours, you've got a better chance of predicting what
might happen in the future. Let's get into our conversation
with Rob. Welcome, Rob to the podcast.
Before we begin, could you introduce yourself and tell us a
bit about your background and your role with the Parole Board?
So my name is Robert Mckidd. I'm a member of the parole
board. I'm called an independent member
of the parole board because there are different
classifications of member. There are some judicial members,
psychologist members, psychiatrist members, and we
make decisions about risk assessing prisoners and whether
they can be safely released into the community.
And that's my job. I've been doing it now since
2012. I chair hearings for the Parole
board and I do lots of other work as well.
Thank you for that. So could you tell us about what
led you to work in this area and what interests you the most
about parole board decision making?
So when I first joined the parole board, I have to confess
I didn't know anything about it and, and it wasn't a dream to,
to suddenly land a role with the parole board.
I've been working in business and doing other things.
And one point came across the parole board by chance in terms
of an advert when they were recruiting and I'd been sitting
as a magistrate for a while and I'd been enjoying that and doing
the family court and doing the adult court and, and thought,
well, maybe there's a chance to do something a little bit more.
And I didn't really know what the parole board did, but I
applied for it, got through various assessment stages.
Alan was appointed and that was 13 years ago now.
And I'm and I'm doing it all this time, really getting a
rewarding experience from it. It's a chance to really make a
difference in terms of public protection because that's first
and foremost what we do. But the Parole Board is such a
unique organisation that it brings about change within the
criminal justice system. And so, for example, victims can
read personal statements at parole hearings, so they can now
come observe them as well. But many years ago they had to
apply to do that. And the parole board changed
that. They changed that process and
made it an automatic write. And that that's the kind of
thing that you you can do and make a difference and, and try
and improve people's experience of the, the, the criminal
justice system. One of the most important things
I think that's happened to the parole board in the time that
I've been with them is the transparency that has developed.
So when I first started, everything was done in private
hearings for private. We could tell people whether
we'd release somebody or not and we couldn't explain the reasons
why. And that changed over time.
But now we have an opportunity to explain to you as as the
victim, why we've made the decision that we've we've made.
Because if I decide to release somebody that has caused serious
harm to your family, 1 you would never want to forgive them.
And why should you? And two, you would never want
them to be released and why should you?
But at least now there's an opportunity for you to
understand why we might have decided to release somebody give
you that information because we produce summaries of decisions
that where may well say in a summary, having pleaded not
guilty, he's since accepted that he did what was alleged.
And and that's helped on on this journey of of changing risk.
There's the opportunity now to come and, and watch parole
hearings in certain cases and there is now the opportunity for
victims of crime to come and observe the private hearing
because most of all hearings are still in private.
So not just reading that summary now we've gone further.
The opportunity now is for you, if you want to, to come and see
for yourself justice not just being done, being seen to be
done. You get that opportunity to to
to hear it all and to understand the evidence.
And the feedback that's come from that so far is that it's
really helped people to understand the process, to
understand how rigorous the probos approach, how forensic we
are in our analysis. And it gave people, I think a
bit of confidence that that we do take this all seriously.
So I think it's all a good thing.
The more and more open that you can be, surely the better.
Thank you for that. It's really interesting to hear
some of the changes that you've seen since you've worked within
the parole board. For those that aren't really
that aware of what the parole board does, could you explain
what the function and the purpose of the parole board is?
I think it's probably quite a hidden part of the criminal
justice system. So when you look at people who
go to prison, 90% of them will have an automatic release date.
They get released halfway through their sentence or or
their thereabouts. And so they know when they're
coming out of prison, there are people serving certain sentences
such as life sentences, IPP sentences, other indeterminate
sentences, who either their only route out of prison is by the
parole board or their early release opportunity comes via
the parole board. So if you're serving, let's say
a sentence of life in prison for murder, you might have a 20 year
tariff. The only way that you get out of
prison after that 20 year tariff has passed is if the Parole
Board directs it. And we make risk assessments of
people. We will look at people's lives,
what it was that led them to commit the the offences that
they committed that got them that life sentence in the 1st
place. We'll look at what the change
has been in prison, if there has been any, and we'll try and
predict the future and look at what somebody would be like if
they were to be released. And the way in which we do that
is we hear evidence, the Parole Board sits as a court, it's
recognised as a court for Article 5 for the Human Rights
Act. And so we will hear evidence
from professional witnesses and from the prisoner concerned as
well. And that will help us to make
that decision. And either we will decide to
release somebody or we won't. And if we won't, we have to
explain why. And if we do, we have to explain
why as well. So we'll produce the decision.
And if we do release people, the Parole Board also decides
licence conditions. There's, there's a bit of a myth
sometimes a probation decide licence conditions, probation
recommend licence conditions to the Parole Board.
But it's people like me who will then either decide that those
conditions are proportionate to necessary, will remove some of
them if they're not proportionate to necessary and
will attach others if we think that some have been missed and
they would be proportionate to necessary to managing somebody's
risk. So we make decisions about the
future for prisoners who can only be released by the Parole
Board, and our first and foremost job is the protection
of the public. Thank you.
So you've mentioned a little bit about how those decisions are
made about whether someone can be released into the community
or released even into a cat D like an open prison.
But I think the probe would have got a decision making framework
if you could you explain a bit more about what that is.
So we're looking at best ways to make decisions because you're
trying to predict the future. We tend to focus on the past,
the presence of the future, and that's the way in which we will
assess risk. So that decision making
framework is something that's been that's been honed over time
and gives opportunity of the kind of things that you should
look at when you're looking at somebody's past.
The kind of things that you would look at when you're
looking at their present, what's been going on in prison, The
kind of things that you would look at when you're trying to
predict the future. And so taking that kind of three
stage approach to it, the idea being then that that once you've
worked out the past and you had an understanding of how the the
present has impacted on past behaviours, you've got a better
chance of predicting what might happen in the future.
But first and foremost, you've got to understand the the big
question, which is why? Why did somebody do what they
did? I often say, I mean, murder is,
is, is perhaps the easiest example because murder is
normally fairly straightforward. I mean, people murder people
that they know they don't set out to do it, but a chain of
events happens and it's that chain of events that you're
looking at. And once you, you've got that
pattern and identified what often people call risk factors,
isn't it those chain of events in somebody's life?
Alcohol is a part of a problem, drug abuse, relationships,
whatever it may be. And then you can look and see
how behaviours have changed during their time in prison.
People do courses, people reflect, people do all sorts of
different things. Certainly people's behaviours as
they mature change. So we look at all of that aspect
as as well and then try and look at what are the circumstances in
the future that would lead somebody to offend again.
You can never say never, can you?
But you, you, you look at what minimises that risk.
And our test, looking at the test that's set in law is about
the necessity of, of somebody's detention for the protection of
the public. But there's something called a
codified public protection test, which means that you have to
look at that the risk is no more than minimal to the public if
you're going to direct release. Now, that might be because a
prisoner's got internal control. They've changed this, they've
matured. None of us are the people that
we used to be 52 now, and I'm not, certainly not the same as I
was when I was 1819. Not that I was horrible then.
But you know, we're all different kind of people, aren't
we? So what?
What are those events that are likely to happen that puts
pressure on somebody's life that's going to lead them down a
particular path? Do they have those internal
controls? What are the external controls
that probation will put in through monitoring, supervision,
licence conditions, engagement with stakeholders, whether
that's the police or children's services?
How does this all tie together? Does that make the risk minimal?
So the decision making framework helps us to make decisions,
helps us to predict the likelihood of events for the
future. And I think we do pretty well
because the serious further offence rate is half of 1%.
Now. 10% of prisoners are are the ones that are considered by
the parole board, 90% released automatically.
The ones released automatically 1/3 go on a re offend, so half
of 1% go on to be accused of committing a serious further
offence and all of those are very important to learn from but
I think it shows that that we take our job seriously.
Yeah, thank you. You touched on it slightly.
Probation officers training probation officers have to
assess someone's risk of posing serious harm and their risk of
re offending. What type of risk are you
looking at? Because most of the people that
are coming to their parole board have committed quite serious
violent or sexual offending. So are you looking at actually
what is their risk of committing a very violent or sexual offence
or is it more of a low level offence like shoplifting?
Would that stop someone being released?
It's the risk of serious harm. We look at what what that risk
is. So shoplifting is a good example
because if somebody is shoplifting, obviously when
we're not going to encourage that that kind of behaviour.
But when you look at risk of serious harm, what risk does
that create now is somebody shoplifts and punches people
when they get challenged. That would create a risk of
serious harm. It's not just about violence
and, and, and sexual violence, though, because psychological
harm is, is a risk. So we would look at that and,
and people sometimes forget that when you look at burglary,
somebody might be quite heavily involved in acquisitive crime
and burglary is horrible. I've been burgled twice.
It's an awful experience. And that is a risk of serious
harm to somebody. If you, if you break into
somebody's house and go through all of their things and they
don't feel safe anymore, you've created that psychological risk.
So I find sometimes people discount burglaries and I don't
think you should. So it's a psychological risk.
It's the risk of violence, it's the risk of, of, of sexual
violence. It's looking at that, that kind
of risk, somebody who's committed an offence of murder.
Absolutely. But the chances of it happening
may be so remote that the risk is actually minimal.
And that's the risk that we're looking at when we look at the
test release. It's an interesting term risk,
isn't it? You've just used it many times
and that sentence, it means different things in different
contexts. As part of the Peak Whip
programme, we encourage our learners to consider the term
risk and what it means. Yeah, and it's it's also being
open to the idea that risk exists in lots of different
aspects of people's lives. So if somebody has been
sentenced for violent offending, their risk is not just
necessarily violence. You, you sometimes you'll see
allegations that appear and we have to look at allegations.
You'll see allegations of sexual offending or of a certain
coercive controlling behaviour in relationships.
We will look at the weight of, of the evidence and we can make
a determination as to whether we think on the balance of
probabilities to not to the criminal standard of proof, but
on the balance of probability. Is it likely that those things
could be true and then we can weigh that into the mix when
we're working out out risk and we look at allegations, that's
the whole job because we're looking at protecting the
public. So you're right, risk means lots
of different things, but it isn't always as well confined
just to the index offence. The reason why somebody's in
prison for in the 1st place, it's, it's those other aspects
of people's lives that that sometimes get overlooked.
So we've been talking quite a lot about the role of probation
officers and we deliver the P quip, the probation officer
training programme. So what we're really interested
to hear is what you view as the role of probation officers in
the parole process. They're the key witnesses to to
any parole hearing. So you have prison offender
managers, you have community offender managers and for those
paration qualified prison offender managers that their
understanding of somebody is, is is critical because that's
helping me to put weight or not on certain things that are said
about a prisoner. We give you an example.
I, I get security intelligence reports from prisons.
You have to be alive to the fact as well that prisoners are not
friends with each other and they try and sabotage each other's
release when they know the, the, the prisoner's parole is coming
up. And one of the key questions
that I, I will ask a prisoner offender manager is what do the
wing staff say about it? Because the wing staff are the
people that see the prisoner day in, day out.
So if you've done that preparation, you've done that
research, then it's it really assists in terms of weighing up
progress, looking at risk, looking at what's been going on
in somebody's life. But that's why we asked what do
the wing staff say? What does the key workers say?
Have those conversations with those other people so that you
can tell us that you can tell us that information.
If somebody's got a history of domestic abuse or there have
been allegations of that, what's been happening in their
correspondence? Who are they writing to?
Who's coming to see them? Who, who, who are they phoning?
Are there any concerns about about those types of behaviour
and that that's really helpful. And then community offender
managers, that's critical because they are the ones that
are are managing the future. So I need to know that you've
got a good relationship with that person.
Some people are very difficult to have relationships with, but
that you're making your best endeavour to do that, that you
really understand what this person's about.
That you're not just focused on one particular aspect of
somebody's life that you are open to looking at, at, at other
aspects of things that may have been reported about them.
And finding out as much as you can that you're having
conversations with with stakeholders and that you're
coming up with plans that are realistic.
Because the external controls that you have in terms of
managing somebody in the community is a key aspect of it.
I do a lot of talk with prisoners.
I, I, I go and do open days with, with prisoners and one of
the things that they always ask me is what can I do to do well
in a parole review? And I say, have a good
relationship with your community offender manager.
When did you last ring them? When did you last write to them?
That's the key because you need to have that good relationship
and show because I need to know that if things are going wrong,
you're not going to hide it. You're going to be open about
it. And same thing with the
community offender manager. If things are going wrong, that
you're open to challenging and working with people and finding
out and not just taking people's word for it.
Because sometimes people tell the truth and sometimes they lie
and it and you've got to be alive to to do all of that.
Your evidence is is crucial in terms of us making decisions.
One of our first episodes of this podcast was about
professional curiosity with Helena Moore from HM
Inspectorate Probation talking about developing the skills.
Professional curiosity and what you've been talking about there
is really important and it evidences the value of it and
within parole decisions. Absolutely.
Because I mean, one thing that we do is is when there are
further offences, we, we have a review committee that looks at
them. I mean they are few and far
between, but I used to sit on that review committee.
It's aspects of people's behaviour that hadn't been
perhaps as clearly present as, you know, violence.
If somebody committed violence in their index offending, it's
those bits that you don't know. I often say I'm I'm looking to
find the things that I don't know and if you can help as part
of that journey by looking as well, then that that really
helps us. So thinking about the main
factors that the parole board considers when deciding whether
to release somebody, could you identify what those main factors
are? Yeah.
So, so we, we, we focus, as I said on on past, the present of
the future. So when we're looking at the
past, we're looking at all of the offending history.
We're not just looking at the index offence, we're looking at
all of that history and the reasons for it.
So I mean, I generally say I will know as much as I can about
a prisoner from the day they were born to the point that
they're sat in front of me because there are aspects of
that that will help to explain certain behaviours.
And so you're looking at all of that past trying to establish
what are the critical key things that that have an influence over
somebody's life. People have learnt behaviour,
people develop addiction through various routes and looking at
then how it changes. So over the present we look at
how things change in prison, people do offending behaviour
courses. That's not the answer to
everything, but it shows a motivation, doesn't it?
You've got to actually want to change as well and then apply
that learning and show that you're different.
We'll look at lots of different ways that risk is reduced or
changed. Sometimes you'll see that people
are are very focused on you must do this particular accredited
course. And that's not the only way to
show that risk has changed. And so, you know, some people
can't get on courses for for various different reasons
sometimes because the waiting lists are so huge and so their
motivation drops. But if they're doing something
else, then maybe there is something there that you can you
can attach to that. So then you've got all the bits
of the puzzle coming together. And then we're looking at how
the future might pan out if somebody is released.
And we know that when people transition to different
environments, their risk changes.
As soon as you walk out the prison gate, your risk goes up.
As soon as you get to the approved premises, your risk
changes because you're in a different environment.
As soon as you move on from the approved premises to living in
your own, either in shared accommodation or you're at a
flat or whatever it may be, risk again changes.
You've got isolation, you've got all sorts of different aspects
of it. And it's trying to look at all
of those points of it to see, going back to the past, which of
them are relevant to risk and how somebody's going to manage
that. Whether that's by themselves,
with the support of probation or focusing primarily on external
controls of probation. We look at sexual offences
against children. People can't turn off just
sexual arousal necessarily. So what are those external
controls that will manage some of those behaviours, some of
those risks? It's a complex process, but we
we, we do our best to piece it all all together.
And the witness evidence is is really important, as is a
prisoner's evidence. Often, what a prisoner says will
will determine the. End just thinking about that in
terms of the current prison population crisis and you've
been in the parole service for a long time.
I was just wondering whether you think actually maybe 10-15 years
ago, for example, was there more opportunity for individuals to
be rehabilitated in prison? I mean, I've been doing this for
1213 years. So the things that I've seen
that are different, the drug of choice is spice.
Now when I first started, cocaine, heroin, Class A drugs
were getting into prisons. Nobody seems to bother so much
about that. But you're talking about was
there a greater opportunity to address offending to a greater
extent than is available now? I don't think so.
There is always ways to address risk.
Are there pressures on the prison system?
Absolutely. There are examples of where it's
difficult for people to access courses or they've got to travel
a long way to another prison to be able to do that, or the
delays mean that they lose motivation and they don't want
to to to do that. But in terms of parole cases,
generally the opportunity is there for people to address
risk, and it's always been there.
So those opportunities I think are there, but sometimes the
Jewishers are difficult. Where I think the opportunities
don't exist is people who are released automatically.
I see them when they get recalled to prison because then
they become a standard recall because the the risk level's
gone up and I have to decide whether they can be released or
not. And you look at the first half
of their sentence, which can be many years, and they've done
nothing because they've not been prioritised.
And I think that's that's that's perhaps a a sad reflection of
pressures on budgets and and everything else that there just
isn't an opportunity to address risk before somebody's
automatically released. If you want to break the cycle
offending, you've got to give people hope and opportunity for
rehabilitation. You mentioned earlier when you
do the Oprah days in prisons for prisoners about telling them to
engage with their probation officer.
And just reflecting back on my own experience that often I did
manage to build good relationships with individuals.
But I remember one person who had committed sexual offending
against young children. It was really difficult to build
a positive relationship with him for various reasons.
But I suppose, do you encourage that?
As a community offender manager, I think you you have to have a
good professional relationship, the best that you are able to
achieve. But sometimes that's hard
because you've got people in prison with personality traits,
personality disorder, various other make up of them where
they'll deflect or they'll blame or they'll, you know, everything
is somebody else's fault. I see that on recalls a lot
where somebody will say, oh, you didn't support me.
And then when you you piece through the evidence in an oral
hearing, it turns out actually there was lots of support.
It was you that there's a prisoner that wasn't actually
doing what they were supposed to be doing.
So sometimes that's difficult and sometimes you have to just
push through with it. So you have to have a good as a
relationship as you can. I say it to prisoners that you
should. It's not an equal relationship.
Sometimes probation officers will tell you to do things that
you don't want to do, but that's because they're protecting the
public. And the opportunity for you to
say no isn't that you need to do it.
But as a probation officer, as a community offender manager, I
think it's really important that as best as you are able to
achieve, prisoners can trust you.
So I think, I think trust is is critical, but also remembering
that it's not an equal relationship and you can be
robust. Thank you.
It links to a lot of the research, doesn't it, which says
about the importance of that relationship, like you said,
build and trust and being as transparent as you can.
So actually you are going to have to make decisions that they
won't like sometimes. But actually if you can be
transparent about that as much as you can, then hopefully it
should help keep the relationship intact.
I. Think so because you're on a
journey together, aren't you? But you are the the boss of
that. You've got to make sure that the
public is safe. So sometimes it can just be
explaining things and and saying, well, This is why we
have an exclusion zone. It's not optional.
This is what you've got to do. And explaining things like GPS
tagging, it's not just to keep an eye on you.
It helps you to show where you were.
Should you be alleged to have done something, we can quickly
establish that it wasn't you. And I've had that in in in cases
where the GPS tagging is the one bit of evidence that's shown
that somebody couldn't have committed a serious offence that
that had been alleged. And that's a, a key part of the
P quip, the probation officer training.
We encourage them to reflect on that therapeutic relationship
that they develop and having that trust, that transparency,
but that also the the belief in that individual's ability to
change and show that you're there to balance rehabilitation,
protecting the public. I think keeping promises as well
is really important because you see people have have come from
chaos and get let down. Once that trust starts to sour,
then then you're in trouble. Whereas you can actually sell it
in, in, in different ways. In terms of actually if you're
on on a a licence directed by the Parole Board, there is
greater opportunity for you to access support.
So I think you could sell it in in in a really positive way.
I know when I first attended an all hearing I found it quite a
scary prospect I guess but we're just thinking for P quip.
So those training to be probation officers, have you got
any tips or advice for them? Number one, come and observe one
first. It's invaluable to come and
actually see what goes on, except that it will be a
daunting experience because we are challenging and I, I say to,
to, to prisoners, you know, and, and to witnesses at hearings.
My job is to challenge the evidence.
So sometimes that means asking difficult questions.
Sometimes that means arguing the opposite of what somebody says
to really test whether they've thought about what it may be.
So the questions can be robust and they can be challenging, but
we should never be rude and we should never be trying to
undermine people. And I don't want to sabotage a
relationship between a community offender manager or a prison
offender manager and A and a prisoner because I'm there for,
you know, two hours or so and then I'm gone.
So you've got to have that relationship in the longer term,
but I have to make sure that things are fair.
So that may mean challenging you if you haven't done things that
you should have done because then the prisoners got to see
that it's not just him who's having a rough time with things.
And you can do that in a polite way.
But sometimes it is to say it is robust and challenging.
Be prepared. Think about where those areas of
risk are and understand your own own risk assessment, understand
where the Oasis scoring has come from.
So know your risk, know why those scores are there, even if
you're inheriting it from somebody else.
Understand what it is that's been said and why it's been said
and whether you agree with it. I, I, I see that sometimes with,
with newly qualified probation officers where I think they're a
little bit nervous to put their own view across.
But if you're going to be managing somebody in the future,
if we release them, I want to know what you think.
Like you're quite entitled to be able to say my SPO says this or,
you know, a senior says this, but I think, and you can
disagree as long as you can, you can back it up and say why.
That's what I want to know. So really know the case, really
understand where those, those risk assessments have come from
and have your own view on it. Now you might agree with it, but
explain why. The other thing I would say is
as a big take home message for your first parole hearing, if
you don't know something, say you don't know, don't try and
dance around the houses and fudge it.
And, and you know, sometimes you get there and people tie
themselves up in knots and I know that they're trying to be
helpful, but don't try and fudge the answer.
If you don't know the answer, you're you're allowed to say I
don't know. That's really helpful, thank
you. One of the modules that we teach
is about critical issues and risk assessment and part of
their reflective assignment they need to do is thinking through
and reflecting about what are the steps in that risk
assessment so that trainees are learning to really know why are
they saying certain risk factors are key for that individual?
What does the research say so that they can be really
confident in their decision making process.
Sometimes it is going to be an all hearing isn't it, that some
people will have different views on the risk a person is.
But as long as you can say, well, I'm confident in my risk
assessment For these reasons, then it is OK if there's
different opinions. Also, if it's your first oral
hearing, tell the parole board panel it's your first oral
hearing because we do a lot of training to try and always
improve the way that we do things.
One of the things that we've done over the last couple of
years is, is about questioning vulnerable prisoners.
The way in which you you formulate questions and, and,
and, and how you signpost things so that nobody gets lost.
And the reality is everybody has vulnerabilities.
We can all be vulnerable in, in different ways.
You might have had some personal situation that happened the
night before. I remember a probation officer
getting very upset and oral hearing and, and we took a break
and had a conversation with her and she said, well, a family
member had been diagnosed with cancer the night before the
hearing. So we'll tell me I can help you
with those kind of things. So don't be afraid to say this
is my first hearing. And people will all know that
when we, we look at the ways in which we ask, ask questions of
people, if there are issues, don't be afraid to raise them.
Remember though, that we're a court that if we direct you to
attend, you have to attend. And, and also, I think just
remember as well that sometimes you might get a grilling from
the prisoner's legal representative and that's
because they're putting across the prisoner's case.
So sometimes they can, they can be quite challenging.
Now, I will make sure as a chair of it that they are respectful
and they're polite, but sometimes that can feel like
you're really under the spotlight.
They're doing their job. Their instructions are from the
prisoner. These are the areas that we that
we need to look at. Now, sometimes some of the
things that they're putting to you may not be true because it's
a prisoner's side of things that may not necessarily be true.
Or they may be, yeah, maybe some criticism about performance or
professionalism. Just answer the questions.
Just be open, honest and answer the questions.
It's not a go at you. It's somebody doing their job.
There's some really good tips there for for our training
probation officers and it will really help.
Them So the other question I wanted to ask was about any tips
or advice for training probation officers.
So a key part of what they'll need to prepare for the oral
hearing would be the robust risk assessment about how someone's
going to be managed in the community.
Are there key parts of a risk assessment plan that you would
want to see I. Mean first of all, make sure
you've read the dossier, know your risk, know what the case is
about, and then look at your recommendation as to what it is
you're saying should happen next.
And regardless of whether you're recommending release or not, you
must have a a risk management plan that we can then look at
whether that would be effective or not.
So making your AP referrals, looking at licence conditions,
working out those licence conditions.
One of the really helpful things that I see when probation
reports come through is when you get the licence conditions and
there's a brief explanation for each one.
We're having this non contact condition because it's been
requested by the victim. We want him to do offence
focused work because he's going to get onto building choices.
My question to you will be when will that course start?
So if it doesn't start for 12 months that is that really
managing risk or is there another way that you can look at
that? So why are you having all of
those licence conditions? Are they all proportionate and
necessary? What are the other RIP
stakeholder involvements? Where are we with Mapper?
Where are we with IOM engagement?
Make sure that information is there and that you know it.
So what other organisations might somebody be linked into
and understanding as well what the prisoner thinks of it?
Having that conversation with a prisoner, I mean that's crucial.
I think when you're developing that risk management plan.
You might have somebody not agreeing with all aspects of it,
but explaining it to them so that they know what the plan is
and that they can put forward their ideas for the future as
well. I'm relying on you to manage
that person in the community if I direct their release and the
you will be able to spot issues, manage those issues if
necessary, be bold enough to recall to somebody's prison if
their risk is escalating and that is necessary.
My faith in you being able to manage them is going to be
really important because if I think that we there's a
potential for somebody to be released, but probation just
don't understand him at all, then the risk management plan
becomes weaker. It doesn't become an effective
plan because I can't be sure that the warning signs will be
spotted. It goes back to what we were
saying before about allegations and, and not discounting things
like that. Being bold enough to be able to
say, well, I don't want to damage the relationship between
myself and the prisoner, but I've got to be straight with
them and say this is a real issue.
You may not be at a point of being able to say, yes, I'm sure
that you, you punch that man, but you might be able to say,
but I do know that you were drinking in the pub and you were
drinking too much. You were mixing with the wrong
people. And you've admitted all of these
things. These are all risk factors that
led to the allegation coming about.
So being prepared to challenge those, those kind of things,
being being bold in that way. One thing that you talk about in
your book Parole about predicting the future, and a big
part of your role is predicting the future, and it's actually
the probation officer, the community probation officer
who's going to be managing that future.
You don't often see the next step of the story.
Hopefully you won't see people again, but it's the probation
officer that's in charge of the future that you're predicting.
And obviously the offender is a big part of that, but the
probation officer is a key player in that.
They're critical. They're critical.
I mean, the prisoner is, is responsible for their own lives.
And and so people will sometimes do unpredictable things and and
that's, that's the way that people behave sometimes.
But yes, as as the, as the community offender manager
responsible of that person in the community, you're managing
their future. My faith is in you that you
would deliver the risk management plan that you said
that you would deliver. I see sometimes case of somebody
who's been recalled and they've been recalled for non
compliance. It's not necessarily risk
related, but you can see some of the issues that that developed
and sometimes that will be unpredictable.
And you see really well how the probation service and the
community fund management has, has really worked hard and
implemented all those aspects of the risk management plan.
And so I need to rely on on people to be able to do that,
just like probation officers need to be able to rely on me to
make sound decisions. You may not always agree with
them, but I will always strive to make the right decision in a
case. It's interesting because I
suppose reflecting back on when I was a probation officer,
obviously I wouldn't be recommending release for anyone
that I didn't think I could manage effectively because I
would be worrying about them at the weekend or what people are
going to do. So I'd want to make sure that
actually the risk management plan is robust, that people are
being released only when it's safe for them to be released.
But I think it's really interesting the point you made
about looking at behaviour in a holistic sense.
So they might be on a licence for one particular type of
offence, but actually if there's allegations or past behaviour of
other concerning behaviour, then we do need to be looking at that
holistically. And when we did the professional
curiosity episode, we talked about that.
And in the training they do look at, it's not just the offence
that someone has committed right now.
Actually they might not have a conviction in the past for
domestic abuse for example, but there's allegations.
So you do need to be managing that risk and talking to that
individual because like you said, they might not like that
at first because they might say well that's not my index
offence, why are we talking about that?
But actually I think at a parole hearing you've got the chance to
say no, actually we're looking at all about you.
And so actually it's not just one particular type of offence.
We want to protect the public, whether that's their new
partner, ex partner, children, to making sure the public is
safe. Absolutely.
And domestic violence is, I think is, is the hidden risk
that people don't always see. You will see there being a risk
in relationships in lots of cases where that just isn't in
anybody's offending. But then there may be police
call outs. So there's certain behaviours of
those things that are going on. And sometimes my job is to
protect people even when they don't want to be protected
because we see partners going back to abusive relationships.
And I will, will protect people from that as best as I'm able
to, even if they they don't necessarily see that.
And I, I'm going to tell you, it's interesting the point you
said about not recommending the recent people that you'd think
you wouldn't be able to manage and worrying about them over the
weekend. And I think sometimes the
reasons why our decisions differ to the recommendations is
because recommendations are made without properly understanding
to test for release. So prison found the managers
will sometimes say, well, based on his custodial behaviour, I
think he should be released because he's not a problem in
here. And everybody says we all wish
we could have 100 Mr. Jones. It's because they're they're it,
it doesn't cause a problem on the wing.
That tells me nothing about risk.
That tells me nothing about what this person might be.
I mean, what have they said to you?
What have you looked at in terms of the allegations that might
have been made about somebody, about what their risks were at
the start, where we are now, how things might change and what
they've talked about their future.
And sometimes community offender managers will approach it from
the wrong direction, is understanding what the test
release is. And people don't always get it.
And it's not just probation officers, psychologist,
psychiatrist, witnesses. Lots of people don't quite get
what it is that we're actually looking at.
That's because it's complicated. It changes regularly.
This case law that is shaped the way in which we make decisions
and the things that we have to consider.
So the starting point when you're deciding whether you're
going to recommend somebody's released or not, is it necessary
for the protection of the public that that person needs to be in
prison. And the the traps that people
fall in is, well, he's 10 years over tariff, there's nothing
left for him to do in prison. So we should release it.
Whereas my answer to that would be the public are very safe
while he's in prison. Is it necessary for the
protection of the public for him to stay in prison?
So let's look at at how we answer that.
That's why you need to understand your risk
assessments. That's why you need to
understand what those risk scores are and have faith in
them or if you disagree with them, say what you think they
are. That's why we need to have a
good risk management plan. That's why we need to understand
what internal controls that prisoner has that they can
manage themselves and what external controls that you have
as part of that risk management plan.
If your risk management plan is relying solely on external
controls, it's not going to be an effective plan.
So how does that make risk minimal when you're looking at
the risk to the public of of that person hurting somebody?
Again, is that risk minimal? Well, if they can't manage
themselves, if they're not going to be honest with you, you can
have the greatest risk management plan in the world,
but that doesn't necessarily mean.
That, that somebody is safe to be released.
And, and, and the reverse of that is true as well in that you
can have somebody who says, well, you know that he shouldn't
be released. Well, what's likely to happen
then when we look at those, those risk situations of, of
somebody offending in the future shoplifting, if you're stealing
Twixes, it's not very nice. But if, but if when you're
challenged, you give up and walk away and there really is no risk
to the public, it's a nuisance. You can take some action on it.
Somebody can be prosecuted on that, but is that risk really
unmanageable? Is that really presenting any
more than a minimal risk to the public?
So you've got to kind of take it in steps.
Thank you for that. So a key part of the Trainee
Probation Officers programme is focusing on reflection and
reflective practise and a lot of the examples you've given today
demonstrate your reflection on your practise.
And what we encourage with our trainees is that they reflect on
the research evidence base for best practise and ensure their
decisions are thoroughly thought through.
So throughout the academic component of the training, they
have to write reflective assignments and really consider
their practise and learn from that and consider how they can
develop their future practise. And within the Decision Making
Framework 2025 from the Parole Board, this also mentions the
importance of reflection. So just wondering what your
thoughts are on reflection and reflective practise.
I love reflective practise. I think people learn things in
different ways. And for me, there's sometimes
when you think about things and then it just clicks.
So I, I, I think that is really important because none of us are
so good that we can't do better, that we can't learn, that we
can't accept that sometimes we get things wrong, we make
mistakes and we can learn from that.
And, and reflection is great whether you do that yourself,
whether you do that with colleagues, but you really
should because otherwise that gives the impression to me that
you already think you know all the answers and you can't
because the answers are constantly changing, because the
dynamics of people's situations are constantly changing.
And every situation is an opportunity to learn.
Admitting when you get things wrong and learning from them is
really important. So yeah, reflect and be honest.
To give you an example, we had a guy who had a terrible stutter.
I mean, it was just, but, and, and there is the temptation for
people to try and fill in the gaps.
And at the very start of the hearing, we set out ground rules
because I took the time to find out what those reasonable
adjustments might be, but also what he wanted.
So we didn't want people pulling words out of a bag.
You know, we give him the chance, however long it took,
just give him the opportunity. And it relaxed him.
And he stuttered less to the point that we actually then got
to singing some of the answers because he didn't stutter what
he sang. And so because he relaxed, he
was able to do that. Years ago when I first started
working with the Royal Board, I wouldn't have had the skills to
do that. But I learnt and you learnt as
you as you go. And it's an interesting point,
isn't it? We mentioned about probation
officers finding the experience daunting, but actually for the
prisoner coming, it's it's massive for them, isn't it?
So it's bound to be a daunting experience as well, so.
It's the biggest day of their life.
It's a day that they've been waiting for.
Oh, and that was always a frustration for me if hearings
couldn't go ahead, because I know that that person has been
sat in prison waiting and waiting and waiting for their
parole hearing to come. And then they get to the day and
it's adjourned for whatever reason, often for good reason,
because new information has come in or something's happened or
whatever it may be. But we're all human beings.
Some human beings do awful things to each other and they
end up in prison, but they're still human beings.
So you can mitigate that. You can say, right, well, we
can't go ahead today, but we're going to tell you now when we're
going to do it. So as a probation officer, make
sure you've got your diary there so you can tell us the days that
you're free. And I will set that hearing with
that prisoner there and then so that he knows in two weeks, 3
weeks that I'm coming back and all of the issues that may have
have come about that created that delay, we will make clear
directions and make sure that, that, that, that we deal with
them. But absolutely, you, you've got
a situation where it, it changes somebody's life.
It's the difference between getting back to family or having
another two years in prison. Because your parole review is
going to be probably in about about two years time.
That. That's huge, isn't it?
Thank you. You mentioned kind of one of the
changes that has been brought in while you work for the parole
board about victims being able to attend.
But if you could recommend any further changes for the parole
board, what would be 1 change that you think would be useful
one? One of the things I saw is, is
the model in New Zealand? I I did some work with the New
Zealand Parole Board. Sadly, it was all online, so I
didn't get to go. But they follow prisoners on
release. So they have a greater role in
super in this supervision of prisons, not in terms of of
managing those people, but just having some oversight as to what
probation are doing, what the prison is doing.
And I think that would be something that that I would love
to see something like that because it would divert people
away from recall. It would help to strengthen
relationships between certainly establishing that that community
offender manager role is a role where you need to follow those
and you know the instructions of what being said.
But also gives the old offender the opportunity to talk about
issues that are going on and things that they need to resolve
to an independent body so that you feel that the process is
fair and they get a say. So that that's something I would
like to see. Can you recommend any readings
for our trainees that might be helpful for them to get a better
understanding of the what the parole board does?
Well, it's on offer at the moment on Amazon.
So, so certainly, I'm obviously going to say you should have a
look at my book because I'm very proud of it.
It's the first time a parole board member's ever had the
opportunity to write about what we do.
Because before that everything was, was secret.
All our decisions were made in private.
We couldn't explain why we made the decisions that we made.
And the law changed some years ago.
And that that opened up the opportunity for the TV programme
and also for me to write that book.
If you want to understand more about about the Parole board
then certainly have a read of that.
I would also recommend though that you look at other people's
experiences. So in the book I talk about
Stephen Gallon who wrote a book called The Road to London
Bridge. He tackled Usman Khan when he
was out on day release on his life licence and and his book is
really insightful into what really happens in prisons.
It really gives you an idea of what day-to-day life is like in
prisons. And and there was a guy called
Chris Atkins who wrote a bit of a stretch and have a read of his
book as well. Information is key.
I fully support and recommend everyone to read your book.
You've got some really insightful reflections on your
own experiences, and I think getting an understanding of that
for our training probation officers would really help them
to understand the parole process.
But also, as you say, learning from other people have lived the
experience of being in prison or going through the system helps
you to understand it, doesn't it?
Thank you very much. So we come to the end of the
podcast, but my final question to you really, is there anything
important that we haven't covered, anything that you came
here to say that we haven't given you the opportunity to
say? Always try and think about what
it is you don't know. That doesn't mean you've got to
go and upend every stone in in in a case, but just really check
that you've got to grips with it all that that really you haven't
just focused on these other convictions and that's it.
That you've really looked at somebody's life and and
understood what they're about. If we can all be as open as
possible in our thinking, I think we'll all do a decent job
and it's nice to be nice. So let's just be nice to each
other. It's a good final word, isn't
it? Thanks for listening to
Probation Perspectives Insights into Community Justice.
We hope our conversation with Robert McKeon gave you a clear
understanding of the parole process and the vital role
probation plays in it. If you are AP Clip, we hope that
this episode gave you some tips for developing your skills and
confidence in this area, from preparing for an oral hearing
and the importance of probation officers trying to develop a
positive working alliance. If you found this episode
helpful, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your
colleagues or fellow learners. We'd love to hear your thoughts
or suggestions for future topics and guests.
A huge thank you to Rob for sharing his insights and to
everyone working behind the scenes who helped make this
podcast possible. We'll be back soon with more
conversations that shine a light on the practise, purpose and
people behind probation and community justice.
Until next time, take care.