1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,840 Welcome to Probation Perspectives, insights into 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,720 Community Justice, the podcast where we dive into the world of 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,000 probation, rehabilitation and community justice. 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,160 Each episode we explore the themes, challenges and skills to 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,080 underpin effective probation practise. 6 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,520 Whether you're just starting out on the P Quip programme, have 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,840 years of experience in the field, or are simply curious 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,880 about the criminal justice system, this podcast is your 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,080 place for practical insights, expert perspectives, and 10 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,320 meaningful conversations. In today's episode, we're 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,160 talking about parole, a process that can be complex, 12 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,440 controversial, and often misunderstood. 13 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,440 We're joined by Robert McKeon from the Parole Board, who 14 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,280 brings a wealth of experience and an insider's view on how 15 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,960 decisions are made, what the role of probation is in the 16 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,840 process, and how practitioners can best support people through 17 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,560 it. Always try and think about what 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,200 it is you don't know. Really check you haven't just 19 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,240 focused on these other convictions and that's it, that 20 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,720 you've really looked at somebody's life and and 21 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,360 understood what they're about. Rob gives us a clear overview of 22 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,080 how the Parole Board operates, explains some recent changes, 23 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,160 and shares some brilliant advice on how probation practitioners 24 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:16,040 can effectively contribute to parole reviews and hearings. 25 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,880 If it's your first oral hearing, tell the parole board panel it's 26 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,160 your first oral hearing. We do a lot of training, but 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,640 don't try and fudge the answer if you don't know the answer. 28 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,880 You're you're allowed to say I don't know. 29 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:32,000 We also explore the complexities of making sense of risk and the 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,600 differing definitions of the term. 31 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,240 We focus on on past, the present of the future. 32 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,400 Once you've worked out the past and how the present has impacted 33 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,800 on past behaviours, you've got a better chance of predicting what 34 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,560 might happen in the future. Let's get into our conversation 35 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:58,040 with Rob. Welcome, Rob to the podcast. 36 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,880 Before we begin, could you introduce yourself and tell us a 37 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,480 bit about your background and your role with the Parole Board? 38 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:05,880 So my name is Robert Mckidd. I'm a member of the parole 39 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,800 board. I'm called an independent member 40 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,440 of the parole board because there are different 41 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,040 classifications of member. There are some judicial members, 42 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,080 psychologist members, psychiatrist members, and we 43 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,760 make decisions about risk assessing prisoners and whether 44 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,000 they can be safely released into the community. 45 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,960 And that's my job. I've been doing it now since 46 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,440 2012. I chair hearings for the Parole 47 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,800 board and I do lots of other work as well. 48 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,600 Thank you for that. So could you tell us about what 49 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,640 led you to work in this area and what interests you the most 50 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:38,440 about parole board decision making? 51 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,720 So when I first joined the parole board, I have to confess 52 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,040 I didn't know anything about it and, and it wasn't a dream to, 53 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,040 to suddenly land a role with the parole board. 54 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,320 I've been working in business and doing other things. 55 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,360 And one point came across the parole board by chance in terms 56 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,200 of an advert when they were recruiting and I'd been sitting 57 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,680 as a magistrate for a while and I'd been enjoying that and doing 58 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,320 the family court and doing the adult court and, and thought, 59 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,680 well, maybe there's a chance to do something a little bit more. 60 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,520 And I didn't really know what the parole board did, but I 61 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,040 applied for it, got through various assessment stages. 62 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,840 Alan was appointed and that was 13 years ago now. 63 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,480 And I'm and I'm doing it all this time, really getting a 64 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,280 rewarding experience from it. It's a chance to really make a 65 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,560 difference in terms of public protection because that's first 66 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,000 and foremost what we do. But the Parole Board is such a 67 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,760 unique organisation that it brings about change within the 68 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,320 criminal justice system. And so, for example, victims can 69 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,840 read personal statements at parole hearings, so they can now 70 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,120 come observe them as well. But many years ago they had to 71 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,040 apply to do that. And the parole board changed 72 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:44,080 that. They changed that process and 73 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,200 made it an automatic write. And that that's the kind of 74 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,280 thing that you you can do and make a difference and, and try 75 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,600 and improve people's experience of the, the, the criminal 76 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,600 justice system. One of the most important things 77 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,200 I think that's happened to the parole board in the time that 78 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,760 I've been with them is the transparency that has developed. 79 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,840 So when I first started, everything was done in private 80 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,280 hearings for private. We could tell people whether 81 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,440 we'd release somebody or not and we couldn't explain the reasons 82 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,400 why. And that changed over time. 83 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,680 But now we have an opportunity to explain to you as as the 84 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,840 victim, why we've made the decision that we've we've made. 85 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:28,120 Because if I decide to release somebody that has caused serious 86 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,640 harm to your family, 1 you would never want to forgive them. 87 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,000 And why should you? And two, you would never want 88 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,880 them to be released and why should you? 89 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,440 But at least now there's an opportunity for you to 90 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,640 understand why we might have decided to release somebody give 91 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,280 you that information because we produce summaries of decisions 92 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,120 that where may well say in a summary, having pleaded not 93 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,800 guilty, he's since accepted that he did what was alleged. 94 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,960 And and that's helped on on this journey of of changing risk. 95 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,880 There's the opportunity now to come and, and watch parole 96 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,800 hearings in certain cases and there is now the opportunity for 97 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,080 victims of crime to come and observe the private hearing 98 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,680 because most of all hearings are still in private. 99 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,440 So not just reading that summary now we've gone further. 100 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:21,240 The opportunity now is for you, if you want to, to come and see 101 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,360 for yourself justice not just being done, being seen to be 102 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,240 done. You get that opportunity to to 103 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,360 to hear it all and to understand the evidence. 104 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,040 And the feedback that's come from that so far is that it's 105 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,560 really helped people to understand the process, to 106 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,720 understand how rigorous the probos approach, how forensic we 107 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,080 are in our analysis. And it gave people, I think a 108 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,120 bit of confidence that that we do take this all seriously. 109 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,000 So I think it's all a good thing. 110 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,920 The more and more open that you can be, surely the better. 111 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:54,800 Thank you for that. It's really interesting to hear 112 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,640 some of the changes that you've seen since you've worked within 113 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,720 the parole board. For those that aren't really 114 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,560 that aware of what the parole board does, could you explain 115 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,480 what the function and the purpose of the parole board is? 116 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,680 I think it's probably quite a hidden part of the criminal 117 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,640 justice system. So when you look at people who 118 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,800 go to prison, 90% of them will have an automatic release date. 119 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,120 They get released halfway through their sentence or or 120 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,160 their thereabouts. And so they know when they're 121 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,840 coming out of prison, there are people serving certain sentences 122 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,720 such as life sentences, IPP sentences, other indeterminate 123 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,960 sentences, who either their only route out of prison is by the 124 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,680 parole board or their early release opportunity comes via 125 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,240 the parole board. So if you're serving, let's say 126 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,000 a sentence of life in prison for murder, you might have a 20 year 127 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,560 tariff. The only way that you get out of 128 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,880 prison after that 20 year tariff has passed is if the Parole 129 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,720 Board directs it. And we make risk assessments of 130 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,200 people. We will look at people's lives, 131 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,680 what it was that led them to commit the the offences that 132 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,040 they committed that got them that life sentence in the 1st 133 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,640 place. We'll look at what the change 134 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,560 has been in prison, if there has been any, and we'll try and 135 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,120 predict the future and look at what somebody would be like if 136 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,680 they were to be released. And the way in which we do that 137 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,320 is we hear evidence, the Parole Board sits as a court, it's 138 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,680 recognised as a court for Article 5 for the Human Rights 139 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Act. And so we will hear evidence 140 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,440 from professional witnesses and from the prisoner concerned as 141 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,280 well. And that will help us to make 142 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,080 that decision. And either we will decide to 143 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,440 release somebody or we won't. And if we won't, we have to 144 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,360 explain why. And if we do, we have to explain 145 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,200 why as well. So we'll produce the decision. 146 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,280 And if we do release people, the Parole Board also decides 147 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,120 licence conditions. There's, there's a bit of a myth 148 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,760 sometimes a probation decide licence conditions, probation 149 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,040 recommend licence conditions to the Parole Board. 150 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,880 But it's people like me who will then either decide that those 151 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,880 conditions are proportionate to necessary, will remove some of 152 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,680 them if they're not proportionate to necessary and 153 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,320 will attach others if we think that some have been missed and 154 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,320 they would be proportionate to necessary to managing somebody's 155 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,520 risk. So we make decisions about the 156 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,920 future for prisoners who can only be released by the Parole 157 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Board, and our first and foremost job is the protection 158 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,040 of the public. Thank you. 159 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,640 So you've mentioned a little bit about how those decisions are 160 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,760 made about whether someone can be released into the community 161 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,360 or released even into a cat D like an open prison. 162 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,000 But I think the probe would have got a decision making framework 163 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,600 if you could you explain a bit more about what that is. 164 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,080 So we're looking at best ways to make decisions because you're 165 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,200 trying to predict the future. We tend to focus on the past, 166 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,280 the presence of the future, and that's the way in which we will 167 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,760 assess risk. So that decision making 168 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,560 framework is something that's been that's been honed over time 169 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,880 and gives opportunity of the kind of things that you should 170 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,680 look at when you're looking at somebody's past. 171 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:54,640 The kind of things that you would look at when you're 172 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,520 looking at their present, what's been going on in prison, The 173 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,640 kind of things that you would look at when you're trying to 174 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,800 predict the future. And so taking that kind of three 175 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,600 stage approach to it, the idea being then that that once you've 176 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,320 worked out the past and you had an understanding of how the the 177 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,000 present has impacted on past behaviours, you've got a better 178 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,960 chance of predicting what might happen in the future. 179 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,800 But first and foremost, you've got to understand the the big 180 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,240 question, which is why? Why did somebody do what they 181 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,720 did? I often say, I mean, murder is, 182 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,240 is, is perhaps the easiest example because murder is 183 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,440 normally fairly straightforward. I mean, people murder people 184 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,320 that they know they don't set out to do it, but a chain of 185 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,120 events happens and it's that chain of events that you're 186 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,560 looking at. And once you, you've got that 187 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:40,040 pattern and identified what often people call risk factors, 188 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,520 isn't it those chain of events in somebody's life? 189 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,720 Alcohol is a part of a problem, drug abuse, relationships, 190 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:49,920 whatever it may be. And then you can look and see 191 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,520 how behaviours have changed during their time in prison. 192 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,200 People do courses, people reflect, people do all sorts of 193 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,360 different things. Certainly people's behaviours as 194 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,960 they mature change. So we look at all of that aspect 195 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,760 as as well and then try and look at what are the circumstances in 196 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,320 the future that would lead somebody to offend again. 197 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:10,520 You can never say never, can you? 198 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,880 But you, you, you look at what minimises that risk. 199 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,040 And our test, looking at the test that's set in law is about 200 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,320 the necessity of, of somebody's detention for the protection of 201 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,080 the public. But there's something called a 202 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,760 codified public protection test, which means that you have to 203 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,680 look at that the risk is no more than minimal to the public if 204 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:30,680 you're going to direct release. Now, that might be because a 205 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:33,280 prisoner's got internal control. They've changed this, they've 206 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:34,960 matured. None of us are the people that 207 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,400 we used to be 52 now, and I'm not, certainly not the same as I 208 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,960 was when I was 1819. Not that I was horrible then. 209 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:43,880 But you know, we're all different kind of people, aren't 210 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:45,000 we? So what? 211 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,080 What are those events that are likely to happen that puts 212 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,920 pressure on somebody's life that's going to lead them down a 213 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,800 particular path? Do they have those internal 214 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,000 controls? What are the external controls 215 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,080 that probation will put in through monitoring, supervision, 216 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,120 licence conditions, engagement with stakeholders, whether 217 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,360 that's the police or children's services? 218 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,560 How does this all tie together? Does that make the risk minimal? 219 00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:10,280 So the decision making framework helps us to make decisions, 220 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,440 helps us to predict the likelihood of events for the 221 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,160 future. And I think we do pretty well 222 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,280 because the serious further offence rate is half of 1%. 223 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,080 Now. 10% of prisoners are are the ones that are considered by 224 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,360 the parole board, 90% released automatically. 225 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,920 The ones released automatically 1/3 go on a re offend, so half 226 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,120 of 1% go on to be accused of committing a serious further 227 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,200 offence and all of those are very important to learn from but 228 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,480 I think it shows that that we take our job seriously. 229 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,720 Yeah, thank you. You touched on it slightly. 230 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,320 Probation officers training probation officers have to 231 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,760 assess someone's risk of posing serious harm and their risk of 232 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,000 re offending. What type of risk are you 233 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,960 looking at? Because most of the people that 234 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,400 are coming to their parole board have committed quite serious 235 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,400 violent or sexual offending. So are you looking at actually 236 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,480 what is their risk of committing a very violent or sexual offence 237 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,800 or is it more of a low level offence like shoplifting? 238 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,400 Would that stop someone being released? 239 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,120 It's the risk of serious harm. We look at what what that risk 240 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,960 is. So shoplifting is a good example 241 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,760 because if somebody is shoplifting, obviously when 242 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,800 we're not going to encourage that that kind of behaviour. 243 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,760 But when you look at risk of serious harm, what risk does 244 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,440 that create now is somebody shoplifts and punches people 245 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,040 when they get challenged. That would create a risk of 246 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,440 serious harm. It's not just about violence 247 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,800 and, and, and sexual violence, though, because psychological 248 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,760 harm is, is a risk. So we would look at that and, 249 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,360 and people sometimes forget that when you look at burglary, 250 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:36,960 somebody might be quite heavily involved in acquisitive crime 251 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,880 and burglary is horrible. I've been burgled twice. 252 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,320 It's an awful experience. And that is a risk of serious 253 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,240 harm to somebody. If you, if you break into 254 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,400 somebody's house and go through all of their things and they 255 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,240 don't feel safe anymore, you've created that psychological risk. 256 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,160 So I find sometimes people discount burglaries and I don't 257 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,600 think you should. So it's a psychological risk. 258 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,000 It's the risk of violence, it's the risk of, of, of sexual 259 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,880 violence. It's looking at that, that kind 260 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,840 of risk, somebody who's committed an offence of murder. 261 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,440 Absolutely. But the chances of it happening 262 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,080 may be so remote that the risk is actually minimal. 263 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,920 And that's the risk that we're looking at when we look at the 264 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,160 test release. It's an interesting term risk, 265 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:16,920 isn't it? You've just used it many times 266 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,800 and that sentence, it means different things in different 267 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,440 contexts. As part of the Peak Whip 268 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,800 programme, we encourage our learners to consider the term 269 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,120 risk and what it means. Yeah, and it's it's also being 270 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,240 open to the idea that risk exists in lots of different 271 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,360 aspects of people's lives. So if somebody has been 272 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,720 sentenced for violent offending, their risk is not just 273 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,760 necessarily violence. You, you sometimes you'll see 274 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,920 allegations that appear and we have to look at allegations. 275 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,080 You'll see allegations of sexual offending or of a certain 276 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,520 coercive controlling behaviour in relationships. 277 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,960 We will look at the weight of, of the evidence and we can make 278 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,040 a determination as to whether we think on the balance of 279 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,960 probabilities to not to the criminal standard of proof, but 280 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,200 on the balance of probability. Is it likely that those things 281 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,480 could be true and then we can weigh that into the mix when 282 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,520 we're working out out risk and we look at allegations, that's 283 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,760 the whole job because we're looking at protecting the 284 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:12,520 public. So you're right, risk means lots 285 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,480 of different things, but it isn't always as well confined 286 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,840 just to the index offence. The reason why somebody's in 287 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,040 prison for in the 1st place, it's, it's those other aspects 288 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,120 of people's lives that that sometimes get overlooked. 289 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,960 So we've been talking quite a lot about the role of probation 290 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,760 officers and we deliver the P quip, the probation officer 291 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,560 training programme. So what we're really interested 292 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,120 to hear is what you view as the role of probation officers in 293 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,080 the parole process. They're the key witnesses to to 294 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,200 any parole hearing. So you have prison offender 295 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,200 managers, you have community offender managers and for those 296 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,760 paration qualified prison offender managers that their 297 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:52,640 understanding of somebody is, is is critical because that's 298 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,520 helping me to put weight or not on certain things that are said 299 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,000 about a prisoner. We give you an example. 300 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,320 I, I get security intelligence reports from prisons. 301 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,600 You have to be alive to the fact as well that prisoners are not 302 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,000 friends with each other and they try and sabotage each other's 303 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,560 release when they know the, the, the prisoner's parole is coming 304 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:09,840 up. And one of the key questions 305 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,880 that I, I will ask a prisoner offender manager is what do the 306 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,720 wing staff say about it? Because the wing staff are the 307 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,760 people that see the prisoner day in, day out. 308 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,160 So if you've done that preparation, you've done that 309 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:25,200 research, then it's it really assists in terms of weighing up 310 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,560 progress, looking at risk, looking at what's been going on 311 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,040 in somebody's life. But that's why we asked what do 312 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,880 the wing staff say? What does the key workers say? 313 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,120 Have those conversations with those other people so that you 314 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,080 can tell us that you can tell us that information. 315 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,920 If somebody's got a history of domestic abuse or there have 316 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,880 been allegations of that, what's been happening in their 317 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,560 correspondence? Who are they writing to? 318 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,160 Who's coming to see them? Who, who, who are they phoning? 319 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,200 Are there any concerns about about those types of behaviour 320 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,600 and that that's really helpful. And then community offender 321 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,520 managers, that's critical because they are the ones that 322 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,920 are are managing the future. So I need to know that you've 323 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,120 got a good relationship with that person. 324 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,400 Some people are very difficult to have relationships with, but 325 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,240 that you're making your best endeavour to do that, that you 326 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,320 really understand what this person's about. 327 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,120 That you're not just focused on one particular aspect of 328 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,800 somebody's life that you are open to looking at, at, at other 329 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,360 aspects of things that may have been reported about them. 330 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,160 And finding out as much as you can that you're having 331 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,760 conversations with with stakeholders and that you're 332 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,200 coming up with plans that are realistic. 333 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,040 Because the external controls that you have in terms of 334 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,040 managing somebody in the community is a key aspect of it. 335 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:40,560 I do a lot of talk with prisoners. 336 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,400 I, I, I go and do open days with, with prisoners and one of 337 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,040 the things that they always ask me is what can I do to do well 338 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,080 in a parole review? And I say, have a good 339 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,040 relationship with your community offender manager. 340 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,400 When did you last ring them? When did you last write to them? 341 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,120 That's the key because you need to have that good relationship 342 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,520 and show because I need to know that if things are going wrong, 343 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,319 you're not going to hide it. You're going to be open about 344 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:05,880 it. And same thing with the 345 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,280 community offender manager. If things are going wrong, that 346 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,760 you're open to challenging and working with people and finding 347 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,880 out and not just taking people's word for it. 348 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,319 Because sometimes people tell the truth and sometimes they lie 349 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,960 and it and you've got to be alive to to do all of that. 350 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,960 Your evidence is is crucial in terms of us making decisions. 351 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,280 One of our first episodes of this podcast was about 352 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,000 professional curiosity with Helena Moore from HM 353 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,400 Inspectorate Probation talking about developing the skills. 354 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,080 Professional curiosity and what you've been talking about there 355 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,600 is really important and it evidences the value of it and 356 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,760 within parole decisions. Absolutely. 357 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,640 Because I mean, one thing that we do is is when there are 358 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,040 further offences, we, we have a review committee that looks at 359 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,200 them. I mean they are few and far 360 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,960 between, but I used to sit on that review committee. 361 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,040 It's aspects of people's behaviour that hadn't been 362 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,800 perhaps as clearly present as, you know, violence. 363 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,600 If somebody committed violence in their index offending, it's 364 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,560 those bits that you don't know. I often say I'm I'm looking to 365 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,320 find the things that I don't know and if you can help as part 366 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,520 of that journey by looking as well, then that that really 367 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,400 helps us. So thinking about the main 368 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,160 factors that the parole board considers when deciding whether 369 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,960 to release somebody, could you identify what those main factors 370 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:21,520 are? Yeah. 371 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,840 So, so we, we, we focus, as I said on on past, the present of 372 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,000 the future. So when we're looking at the 373 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,840 past, we're looking at all of the offending history. 374 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,600 We're not just looking at the index offence, we're looking at 375 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,440 all of that history and the reasons for it. 376 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,680 So I mean, I generally say I will know as much as I can about 377 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,640 a prisoner from the day they were born to the point that 378 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,480 they're sat in front of me because there are aspects of 379 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,000 that that will help to explain certain behaviours. 380 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,120 And so you're looking at all of that past trying to establish 381 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,440 what are the critical key things that that have an influence over 382 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,840 somebody's life. People have learnt behaviour, 383 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:02,120 people develop addiction through various routes and looking at 384 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,160 then how it changes. So over the present we look at 385 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,240 how things change in prison, people do offending behaviour 386 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:08,440 courses. That's not the answer to 387 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,440 everything, but it shows a motivation, doesn't it? 388 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,560 You've got to actually want to change as well and then apply 389 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,600 that learning and show that you're different. 390 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,720 We'll look at lots of different ways that risk is reduced or 391 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,080 changed. Sometimes you'll see that people 392 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,240 are are very focused on you must do this particular accredited 393 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,560 course. And that's not the only way to 394 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,680 show that risk has changed. And so, you know, some people 395 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,360 can't get on courses for for various different reasons 396 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,880 sometimes because the waiting lists are so huge and so their 397 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,920 motivation drops. But if they're doing something 398 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,920 else, then maybe there is something there that you can you 399 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,000 can attach to that. So then you've got all the bits 400 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,480 of the puzzle coming together. And then we're looking at how 401 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,040 the future might pan out if somebody is released. 402 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,280 And we know that when people transition to different 403 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,640 environments, their risk changes. 404 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,520 As soon as you walk out the prison gate, your risk goes up. 405 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,360 As soon as you get to the approved premises, your risk 406 00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:58,880 changes because you're in a different environment. 407 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:02,200 As soon as you move on from the approved premises to living in 408 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,600 your own, either in shared accommodation or you're at a 409 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,120 flat or whatever it may be, risk again changes. 410 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,520 You've got isolation, you've got all sorts of different aspects 411 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,560 of it. And it's trying to look at all 412 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:17,120 of those points of it to see, going back to the past, which of 413 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:20,280 them are relevant to risk and how somebody's going to manage 414 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,320 that. Whether that's by themselves, 415 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,400 with the support of probation or focusing primarily on external 416 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,040 controls of probation. We look at sexual offences 417 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,760 against children. People can't turn off just 418 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,000 sexual arousal necessarily. So what are those external 419 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,120 controls that will manage some of those behaviours, some of 420 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,520 those risks? It's a complex process, but we 421 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,720 we, we do our best to piece it all all together. 422 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,800 And the witness evidence is is really important, as is a 423 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,080 prisoner's evidence. Often, what a prisoner says will 424 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,960 will determine the. End just thinking about that in 425 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,360 terms of the current prison population crisis and you've 426 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,080 been in the parole service for a long time. 427 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,360 I was just wondering whether you think actually maybe 10-15 years 428 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:06,200 ago, for example, was there more opportunity for individuals to 429 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,240 be rehabilitated in prison? I mean, I've been doing this for 430 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,520 1213 years. So the things that I've seen 431 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,240 that are different, the drug of choice is spice. 432 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,120 Now when I first started, cocaine, heroin, Class A drugs 433 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,080 were getting into prisons. Nobody seems to bother so much 434 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,080 about that. But you're talking about was 435 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,320 there a greater opportunity to address offending to a greater 436 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,360 extent than is available now? I don't think so. 437 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,760 There is always ways to address risk. 438 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,280 Are there pressures on the prison system? 439 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,160 Absolutely. There are examples of where it's 440 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,720 difficult for people to access courses or they've got to travel 441 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,200 a long way to another prison to be able to do that, or the 442 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,160 delays mean that they lose motivation and they don't want 443 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,800 to to to do that. But in terms of parole cases, 444 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,800 generally the opportunity is there for people to address 445 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,400 risk, and it's always been there. 446 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,920 So those opportunities I think are there, but sometimes the 447 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,560 Jewishers are difficult. Where I think the opportunities 448 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,520 don't exist is people who are released automatically. 449 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,560 I see them when they get recalled to prison because then 450 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,400 they become a standard recall because the the risk level's 451 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,160 gone up and I have to decide whether they can be released or 452 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,320 not. And you look at the first half 453 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,520 of their sentence, which can be many years, and they've done 454 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,680 nothing because they've not been prioritised. 455 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,160 And I think that's that's that's perhaps a a sad reflection of 456 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,400 pressures on budgets and and everything else that there just 457 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,400 isn't an opportunity to address risk before somebody's 458 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,320 automatically released. If you want to break the cycle 459 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,440 offending, you've got to give people hope and opportunity for 460 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,160 rehabilitation. You mentioned earlier when you 461 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,880 do the Oprah days in prisons for prisoners about telling them to 462 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,920 engage with their probation officer. 463 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,000 And just reflecting back on my own experience that often I did 464 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,480 manage to build good relationships with individuals. 465 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,040 But I remember one person who had committed sexual offending 466 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,240 against young children. It was really difficult to build 467 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,680 a positive relationship with him for various reasons. 468 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,680 But I suppose, do you encourage that? 469 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,800 As a community offender manager, I think you you have to have a 470 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,520 good professional relationship, the best that you are able to 471 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,080 achieve. But sometimes that's hard 472 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,120 because you've got people in prison with personality traits, 473 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:21,080 personality disorder, various other make up of them where 474 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,640 they'll deflect or they'll blame or they'll, you know, everything 475 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,920 is somebody else's fault. I see that on recalls a lot 476 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,680 where somebody will say, oh, you didn't support me. 477 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,600 And then when you you piece through the evidence in an oral 478 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,480 hearing, it turns out actually there was lots of support. 479 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,720 It was you that there's a prisoner that wasn't actually 480 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,160 doing what they were supposed to be doing. 481 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,320 So sometimes that's difficult and sometimes you have to just 482 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,960 push through with it. So you have to have a good as a 483 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,800 relationship as you can. I say it to prisoners that you 484 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,680 should. It's not an equal relationship. 485 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,720 Sometimes probation officers will tell you to do things that 486 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,320 you don't want to do, but that's because they're protecting the 487 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,320 public. And the opportunity for you to 488 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,000 say no isn't that you need to do it. 489 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,240 But as a probation officer, as a community offender manager, I 490 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,280 think it's really important that as best as you are able to 491 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,200 achieve, prisoners can trust you. 492 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:13,600 So I think, I think trust is is critical, but also remembering 493 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,920 that it's not an equal relationship and you can be 494 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,760 robust. Thank you. 495 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,920 It links to a lot of the research, doesn't it, which says 496 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,560 about the importance of that relationship, like you said, 497 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,720 build and trust and being as transparent as you can. 498 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,920 So actually you are going to have to make decisions that they 499 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,960 won't like sometimes. But actually if you can be 500 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,640 transparent about that as much as you can, then hopefully it 501 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,080 should help keep the relationship intact. 502 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,920 I. Think so because you're on a 503 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,880 journey together, aren't you? But you are the the boss of 504 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,880 that. You've got to make sure that the 505 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,520 public is safe. So sometimes it can just be 506 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,840 explaining things and and saying, well, This is why we 507 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,640 have an exclusion zone. It's not optional. 508 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,320 This is what you've got to do. And explaining things like GPS 509 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,600 tagging, it's not just to keep an eye on you. 510 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:01,960 It helps you to show where you were. 511 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,560 Should you be alleged to have done something, we can quickly 512 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,600 establish that it wasn't you. And I've had that in in in cases 513 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,880 where the GPS tagging is the one bit of evidence that's shown 514 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,160 that somebody couldn't have committed a serious offence that 515 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,200 that had been alleged. And that's a, a key part of the 516 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,880 P quip, the probation officer training. 517 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,120 We encourage them to reflect on that therapeutic relationship 518 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,600 that they develop and having that trust, that transparency, 519 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,120 but that also the the belief in that individual's ability to 520 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:34,880 change and show that you're there to balance rehabilitation, 521 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,840 protecting the public. I think keeping promises as well 522 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,440 is really important because you see people have have come from 523 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,600 chaos and get let down. Once that trust starts to sour, 524 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,760 then then you're in trouble. Whereas you can actually sell it 525 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,360 in, in, in different ways. In terms of actually if you're 526 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,320 on on a a licence directed by the Parole Board, there is 527 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,560 greater opportunity for you to access support. 528 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,280 So I think you could sell it in in in a really positive way. 529 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,360 I know when I first attended an all hearing I found it quite a 530 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,640 scary prospect I guess but we're just thinking for P quip. 531 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,440 So those training to be probation officers, have you got 532 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,040 any tips or advice for them? Number one, come and observe one 533 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,920 first. It's invaluable to come and 534 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,520 actually see what goes on, except that it will be a 535 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,760 daunting experience because we are challenging and I, I say to, 536 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,160 to, to prisoners, you know, and, and to witnesses at hearings. 537 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,440 My job is to challenge the evidence. 538 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,960 So sometimes that means asking difficult questions. 539 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,560 Sometimes that means arguing the opposite of what somebody says 540 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,600 to really test whether they've thought about what it may be. 541 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,600 So the questions can be robust and they can be challenging, but 542 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,480 we should never be rude and we should never be trying to 543 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:52,680 undermine people. And I don't want to sabotage a 544 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,120 relationship between a community offender manager or a prison 545 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,680 offender manager and A and a prisoner because I'm there for, 546 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,840 you know, two hours or so and then I'm gone. 547 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,320 So you've got to have that relationship in the longer term, 548 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,920 but I have to make sure that things are fair. 549 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,600 So that may mean challenging you if you haven't done things that 550 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,400 you should have done because then the prisoners got to see 551 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,200 that it's not just him who's having a rough time with things. 552 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:15,520 And you can do that in a polite way. 553 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,080 But sometimes it is to say it is robust and challenging. 554 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,120 Be prepared. Think about where those areas of 555 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:28,120 risk are and understand your own own risk assessment, understand 556 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,000 where the Oasis scoring has come from. 557 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,320 So know your risk, know why those scores are there, even if 558 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,280 you're inheriting it from somebody else. 559 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,840 Understand what it is that's been said and why it's been said 560 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,280 and whether you agree with it. I, I, I see that sometimes with, 561 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,840 with newly qualified probation officers where I think they're a 562 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,480 little bit nervous to put their own view across. 563 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,120 But if you're going to be managing somebody in the future, 564 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,520 if we release them, I want to know what you think. 565 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,560 Like you're quite entitled to be able to say my SPO says this or, 566 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,120 you know, a senior says this, but I think, and you can 567 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:10,040 disagree as long as you can, you can back it up and say why. 568 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,960 That's what I want to know. So really know the case, really 569 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,320 understand where those, those risk assessments have come from 570 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,760 and have your own view on it. Now you might agree with it, but 571 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,680 explain why. The other thing I would say is 572 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,640 as a big take home message for your first parole hearing, if 573 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,600 you don't know something, say you don't know, don't try and 574 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,160 dance around the houses and fudge it. 575 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,520 And, and you know, sometimes you get there and people tie 576 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,520 themselves up in knots and I know that they're trying to be 577 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,200 helpful, but don't try and fudge the answer. 578 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,040 If you don't know the answer, you're you're allowed to say I 579 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,840 don't know. That's really helpful, thank 580 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,640 you. One of the modules that we teach 581 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,360 is about critical issues and risk assessment and part of 582 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,520 their reflective assignment they need to do is thinking through 583 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,360 and reflecting about what are the steps in that risk 584 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,320 assessment so that trainees are learning to really know why are 585 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,960 they saying certain risk factors are key for that individual? 586 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,880 What does the research say so that they can be really 587 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,840 confident in their decision making process. 588 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,680 Sometimes it is going to be an all hearing isn't it, that some 589 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,600 people will have different views on the risk a person is. 590 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,840 But as long as you can say, well, I'm confident in my risk 591 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,120 assessment For these reasons, then it is OK if there's 592 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,280 different opinions. Also, if it's your first oral 593 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,200 hearing, tell the parole board panel it's your first oral 594 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,280 hearing because we do a lot of training to try and always 595 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,440 improve the way that we do things. 596 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,040 One of the things that we've done over the last couple of 597 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,120 years is, is about questioning vulnerable prisoners. 598 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,920 The way in which you you formulate questions and, and, 599 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,200 and, and how you signpost things so that nobody gets lost. 600 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,040 And the reality is everybody has vulnerabilities. 601 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,200 We can all be vulnerable in, in different ways. 602 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,320 You might have had some personal situation that happened the 603 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,640 night before. I remember a probation officer 604 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,600 getting very upset and oral hearing and, and we took a break 605 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,600 and had a conversation with her and she said, well, a family 606 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,080 member had been diagnosed with cancer the night before the 607 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,960 hearing. So we'll tell me I can help you 608 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,040 with those kind of things. So don't be afraid to say this 609 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,920 is my first hearing. And people will all know that 610 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,880 when we, we look at the ways in which we ask, ask questions of 611 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,600 people, if there are issues, don't be afraid to raise them. 612 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,120 Remember though, that we're a court that if we direct you to 613 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,920 attend, you have to attend. And, and also, I think just 614 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,080 remember as well that sometimes you might get a grilling from 615 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,760 the prisoner's legal representative and that's 616 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,040 because they're putting across the prisoner's case. 617 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,880 So sometimes they can, they can be quite challenging. 618 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,680 Now, I will make sure as a chair of it that they are respectful 619 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,280 and they're polite, but sometimes that can feel like 620 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:53,760 you're really under the spotlight. 621 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,000 They're doing their job. Their instructions are from the 622 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,600 prisoner. These are the areas that we that 623 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,360 we need to look at. Now, sometimes some of the 624 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,440 things that they're putting to you may not be true because it's 625 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,480 a prisoner's side of things that may not necessarily be true. 626 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,920 Or they may be, yeah, maybe some criticism about performance or 627 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,680 professionalism. Just answer the questions. 628 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,480 Just be open, honest and answer the questions. 629 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,600 It's not a go at you. It's somebody doing their job. 630 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,480 There's some really good tips there for for our training 631 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,000 probation officers and it will really help. 632 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,400 Them So the other question I wanted to ask was about any tips 633 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,480 or advice for training probation officers. 634 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,760 So a key part of what they'll need to prepare for the oral 635 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,240 hearing would be the robust risk assessment about how someone's 636 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,160 going to be managed in the community. 637 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,200 Are there key parts of a risk assessment plan that you would 638 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,360 want to see I. Mean first of all, make sure 639 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,280 you've read the dossier, know your risk, know what the case is 640 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,200 about, and then look at your recommendation as to what it is 641 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,840 you're saying should happen next. 642 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,280 And regardless of whether you're recommending release or not, you 643 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,240 must have a a risk management plan that we can then look at 644 00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,800 whether that would be effective or not. 645 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,520 So making your AP referrals, looking at licence conditions, 646 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,160 working out those licence conditions. 647 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,960 One of the really helpful things that I see when probation 648 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,880 reports come through is when you get the licence conditions and 649 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,200 there's a brief explanation for each one. 650 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,200 We're having this non contact condition because it's been 651 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,680 requested by the victim. We want him to do offence 652 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,680 focused work because he's going to get onto building choices. 653 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,000 My question to you will be when will that course start? 654 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,000 So if it doesn't start for 12 months that is that really 655 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,400 managing risk or is there another way that you can look at 656 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,640 that? So why are you having all of 657 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,040 those licence conditions? Are they all proportionate and 658 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,160 necessary? What are the other RIP 659 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,800 stakeholder involvements? Where are we with Mapper? 660 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,680 Where are we with IOM engagement? 661 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,080 Make sure that information is there and that you know it. 662 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,200 So what other organisations might somebody be linked into 663 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,680 and understanding as well what the prisoner thinks of it? 664 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,680 Having that conversation with a prisoner, I mean that's crucial. 665 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,080 I think when you're developing that risk management plan. 666 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,720 You might have somebody not agreeing with all aspects of it, 667 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,520 but explaining it to them so that they know what the plan is 668 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,200 and that they can put forward their ideas for the future as 669 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,640 well. I'm relying on you to manage 670 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,200 that person in the community if I direct their release and the 671 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:26,240 you will be able to spot issues, manage those issues if 672 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,120 necessary, be bold enough to recall to somebody's prison if 673 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,000 their risk is escalating and that is necessary. 674 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,560 My faith in you being able to manage them is going to be 675 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,440 really important because if I think that we there's a 676 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,520 potential for somebody to be released, but probation just 677 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,440 don't understand him at all, then the risk management plan 678 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,680 becomes weaker. It doesn't become an effective 679 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,360 plan because I can't be sure that the warning signs will be 680 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,400 spotted. It goes back to what we were 681 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,240 saying before about allegations and, and not discounting things 682 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,280 like that. Being bold enough to be able to 683 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,840 say, well, I don't want to damage the relationship between 684 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,080 myself and the prisoner, but I've got to be straight with 685 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,880 them and say this is a real issue. 686 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,760 You may not be at a point of being able to say, yes, I'm sure 687 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,840 that you, you punch that man, but you might be able to say, 688 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,760 but I do know that you were drinking in the pub and you were 689 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,400 drinking too much. You were mixing with the wrong 690 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,679 people. And you've admitted all of these 691 00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:20,280 things. These are all risk factors that 692 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,080 led to the allegation coming about. 693 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,760 So being prepared to challenge those, those kind of things, 694 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,679 being being bold in that way. One thing that you talk about in 695 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:30,520 your book Parole about predicting the future, and a big 696 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,600 part of your role is predicting the future, and it's actually 697 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,239 the probation officer, the community probation officer 698 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,880 who's going to be managing that future. 699 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:40,159 You don't often see the next step of the story. 700 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:42,920 Hopefully you won't see people again, but it's the probation 701 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,639 officer that's in charge of the future that you're predicting. 702 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:48,560 And obviously the offender is a big part of that, but the 703 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:50,800 probation officer is a key player in that. 704 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,400 They're critical. They're critical. 705 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,000 I mean, the prisoner is, is responsible for their own lives. 706 00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,040 And and so people will sometimes do unpredictable things and and 707 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,960 that's, that's the way that people behave sometimes. 708 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,920 But yes, as as the, as the community offender manager 709 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,400 responsible of that person in the community, you're managing 710 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,280 their future. My faith is in you that you 711 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,320 would deliver the risk management plan that you said 712 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,120 that you would deliver. I see sometimes case of somebody 713 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,200 who's been recalled and they've been recalled for non 714 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:19,640 compliance. It's not necessarily risk 715 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,520 related, but you can see some of the issues that that developed 716 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,040 and sometimes that will be unpredictable. 717 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,560 And you see really well how the probation service and the 718 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,520 community fund management has, has really worked hard and 719 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,000 implemented all those aspects of the risk management plan. 720 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,760 And so I need to rely on on people to be able to do that, 721 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,680 just like probation officers need to be able to rely on me to 722 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,760 make sound decisions. You may not always agree with 723 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,560 them, but I will always strive to make the right decision in a 724 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,200 case. It's interesting because I 725 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,880 suppose reflecting back on when I was a probation officer, 726 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,720 obviously I wouldn't be recommending release for anyone 727 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,760 that I didn't think I could manage effectively because I 728 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,600 would be worrying about them at the weekend or what people are 729 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,400 going to do. So I'd want to make sure that 730 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,240 actually the risk management plan is robust, that people are 731 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,000 being released only when it's safe for them to be released. 732 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,080 But I think it's really interesting the point you made 733 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,480 about looking at behaviour in a holistic sense. 734 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,000 So they might be on a licence for one particular type of 735 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,080 offence, but actually if there's allegations or past behaviour of 736 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,080 other concerning behaviour, then we do need to be looking at that 737 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,120 holistically. And when we did the professional 738 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,480 curiosity episode, we talked about that. 739 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,560 And in the training they do look at, it's not just the offence 740 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,120 that someone has committed right now. 741 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,720 Actually they might not have a conviction in the past for 742 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:38,920 domestic abuse for example, but there's allegations. 743 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,080 So you do need to be managing that risk and talking to that 744 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,880 individual because like you said, they might not like that 745 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,560 at first because they might say well that's not my index 746 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,120 offence, why are we talking about that? 747 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,880 But actually I think at a parole hearing you've got the chance to 748 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,120 say no, actually we're looking at all about you. 749 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,600 And so actually it's not just one particular type of offence. 750 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,240 We want to protect the public, whether that's their new 751 00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:04,840 partner, ex partner, children, to making sure the public is 752 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,400 safe. Absolutely. 753 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,120 And domestic violence is, I think is, is the hidden risk 754 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,160 that people don't always see. You will see there being a risk 755 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,320 in relationships in lots of cases where that just isn't in 756 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,560 anybody's offending. But then there may be police 757 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:19,960 call outs. So there's certain behaviours of 758 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,440 those things that are going on. And sometimes my job is to 759 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,720 protect people even when they don't want to be protected 760 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,920 because we see partners going back to abusive relationships. 761 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:36,000 And I will, will protect people from that as best as I'm able 762 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,960 to, even if they they don't necessarily see that. 763 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,240 And I, I'm going to tell you, it's interesting the point you 764 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:45,560 said about not recommending the recent people that you'd think 765 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,760 you wouldn't be able to manage and worrying about them over the 766 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,000 weekend. And I think sometimes the 767 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,240 reasons why our decisions differ to the recommendations is 768 00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:01,240 because recommendations are made without properly understanding 769 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,200 to test for release. So prison found the managers 770 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,120 will sometimes say, well, based on his custodial behaviour, I 771 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:10,920 think he should be released because he's not a problem in 772 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,640 here. And everybody says we all wish 773 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,400 we could have 100 Mr. Jones. It's because they're they're it, 774 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,120 it doesn't cause a problem on the wing. 775 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,560 That tells me nothing about risk. 776 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,280 That tells me nothing about what this person might be. 777 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:23,480 I mean, what have they said to you? 778 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,160 What have you looked at in terms of the allegations that might 779 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,200 have been made about somebody, about what their risks were at 780 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,120 the start, where we are now, how things might change and what 781 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:34,360 they've talked about their future. 782 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,960 And sometimes community offender managers will approach it from 783 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,200 the wrong direction, is understanding what the test 784 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,000 release is. And people don't always get it. 785 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,040 And it's not just probation officers, psychologist, 786 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,880 psychiatrist, witnesses. Lots of people don't quite get 787 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,240 what it is that we're actually looking at. 788 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,720 That's because it's complicated. It changes regularly. 789 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:03,280 This case law that is shaped the way in which we make decisions 790 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:04,960 and the things that we have to consider. 791 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,240 So the starting point when you're deciding whether you're 792 00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:11,640 going to recommend somebody's released or not, is it necessary 793 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,520 for the protection of the public that that person needs to be in 794 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,400 prison. And the the traps that people 795 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,400 fall in is, well, he's 10 years over tariff, there's nothing 796 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,640 left for him to do in prison. So we should release it. 797 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,040 Whereas my answer to that would be the public are very safe 798 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,960 while he's in prison. Is it necessary for the 799 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,840 protection of the public for him to stay in prison? 800 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,040 So let's look at at how we answer that. 801 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:39,920 That's why you need to understand your risk 802 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,160 assessments. That's why you need to 803 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,680 understand what those risk scores are and have faith in 804 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,160 them or if you disagree with them, say what you think they 805 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,360 are. That's why we need to have a 806 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,920 good risk management plan. That's why we need to understand 807 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,000 what internal controls that prisoner has that they can 808 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,680 manage themselves and what external controls that you have 809 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,240 as part of that risk management plan. 810 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,560 If your risk management plan is relying solely on external 811 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,400 controls, it's not going to be an effective plan. 812 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,240 So how does that make risk minimal when you're looking at 813 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:11,480 the risk to the public of of that person hurting somebody? 814 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,440 Again, is that risk minimal? Well, if they can't manage 815 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,920 themselves, if they're not going to be honest with you, you can 816 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,880 have the greatest risk management plan in the world, 817 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,240 but that doesn't necessarily mean. 818 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,560 That, that somebody is safe to be released. 819 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,160 And, and, and the reverse of that is true as well in that you 820 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,840 can have somebody who says, well, you know that he shouldn't 821 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,640 be released. Well, what's likely to happen 822 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,840 then when we look at those, those risk situations of, of 823 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,960 somebody offending in the future shoplifting, if you're stealing 824 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,520 Twixes, it's not very nice. But if, but if when you're 825 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,680 challenged, you give up and walk away and there really is no risk 826 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,560 to the public, it's a nuisance. You can take some action on it. 827 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,800 Somebody can be prosecuted on that, but is that risk really 828 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,240 unmanageable? Is that really presenting any 829 00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:59,120 more than a minimal risk to the public? 830 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,280 So you've got to kind of take it in steps. 831 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,360 Thank you for that. So a key part of the Trainee 832 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,880 Probation Officers programme is focusing on reflection and 833 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,040 reflective practise and a lot of the examples you've given today 834 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,680 demonstrate your reflection on your practise. 835 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,240 And what we encourage with our trainees is that they reflect on 836 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:21,880 the research evidence base for best practise and ensure their 837 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,400 decisions are thoroughly thought through. 838 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,520 So throughout the academic component of the training, they 839 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,360 have to write reflective assignments and really consider 840 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,320 their practise and learn from that and consider how they can 841 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,360 develop their future practise. And within the Decision Making 842 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,720 Framework 2025 from the Parole Board, this also mentions the 843 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:42,080 importance of reflection. So just wondering what your 844 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,160 thoughts are on reflection and reflective practise. 845 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,960 I love reflective practise. I think people learn things in 846 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,000 different ways. And for me, there's sometimes 847 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,360 when you think about things and then it just clicks. 848 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:59,800 So I, I, I think that is really important because none of us are 849 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:05,040 so good that we can't do better, that we can't learn, that we 850 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,600 can't accept that sometimes we get things wrong, we make 851 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,640 mistakes and we can learn from that. 852 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:15,120 And, and reflection is great whether you do that yourself, 853 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,200 whether you do that with colleagues, but you really 854 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,760 should because otherwise that gives the impression to me that 855 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,160 you already think you know all the answers and you can't 856 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:28,480 because the answers are constantly changing, because the 857 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,520 dynamics of people's situations are constantly changing. 858 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:34,560 And every situation is an opportunity to learn. 859 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,800 Admitting when you get things wrong and learning from them is 860 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,520 really important. So yeah, reflect and be honest. 861 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,800 To give you an example, we had a guy who had a terrible stutter. 862 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,720 I mean, it was just, but, and, and there is the temptation for 863 00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:50,320 people to try and fill in the gaps. 864 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,560 And at the very start of the hearing, we set out ground rules 865 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,640 because I took the time to find out what those reasonable 866 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,480 adjustments might be, but also what he wanted. 867 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,200 So we didn't want people pulling words out of a bag. 868 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,800 You know, we give him the chance, however long it took, 869 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,000 just give him the opportunity. And it relaxed him. 870 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,040 And he stuttered less to the point that we actually then got 871 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,640 to singing some of the answers because he didn't stutter what 872 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:18,160 he sang. And so because he relaxed, he 873 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,880 was able to do that. Years ago when I first started 874 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,840 working with the Royal Board, I wouldn't have had the skills to 875 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,440 do that. But I learnt and you learnt as 876 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,040 you as you go. And it's an interesting point, 877 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,920 isn't it? We mentioned about probation 878 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,440 officers finding the experience daunting, but actually for the 879 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,360 prisoner coming, it's it's massive for them, isn't it? 880 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,960 So it's bound to be a daunting experience as well, so. 881 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:40,400 It's the biggest day of their life. 882 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,720 It's a day that they've been waiting for. 883 00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,720 Oh, and that was always a frustration for me if hearings 884 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:52,280 couldn't go ahead, because I know that that person has been 885 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,720 sat in prison waiting and waiting and waiting for their 886 00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:57,720 parole hearing to come. And then they get to the day and 887 00:43:57,720 --> 00:43:59,960 it's adjourned for whatever reason, often for good reason, 888 00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:02,240 because new information has come in or something's happened or 889 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:06,280 whatever it may be. But we're all human beings. 890 00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,240 Some human beings do awful things to each other and they 891 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:11,360 end up in prison, but they're still human beings. 892 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,280 So you can mitigate that. You can say, right, well, we 893 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,000 can't go ahead today, but we're going to tell you now when we're 894 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,080 going to do it. So as a probation officer, make 895 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,120 sure you've got your diary there so you can tell us the days that 896 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,880 you're free. And I will set that hearing with 897 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,520 that prisoner there and then so that he knows in two weeks, 3 898 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,800 weeks that I'm coming back and all of the issues that may have 899 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,440 have come about that created that delay, we will make clear 900 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,320 directions and make sure that, that, that, that we deal with 901 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,520 them. But absolutely, you, you've got 902 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,560 a situation where it, it changes somebody's life. 903 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:54,480 It's the difference between getting back to family or having 904 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,080 another two years in prison. Because your parole review is 905 00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,560 going to be probably in about about two years time. 906 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:00,880 That. That's huge, isn't it? 907 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,960 Thank you. You mentioned kind of one of the 908 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,640 changes that has been brought in while you work for the parole 909 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,960 board about victims being able to attend. 910 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,680 But if you could recommend any further changes for the parole 911 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,280 board, what would be 1 change that you think would be useful 912 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,520 one? One of the things I saw is, is 913 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,800 the model in New Zealand? I I did some work with the New 914 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:25,760 Zealand Parole Board. Sadly, it was all online, so I 915 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,440 didn't get to go. But they follow prisoners on 916 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,480 release. So they have a greater role in 917 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,640 super in this supervision of prisons, not in terms of of 918 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,160 managing those people, but just having some oversight as to what 919 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:40,800 probation are doing, what the prison is doing. 920 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,400 And I think that would be something that that I would love 921 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,080 to see something like that because it would divert people 922 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:52,600 away from recall. It would help to strengthen 923 00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:58,280 relationships between certainly establishing that that community 924 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,160 offender manager role is a role where you need to follow those 925 00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,280 and you know the instructions of what being said. 926 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:08,240 But also gives the old offender the opportunity to talk about 927 00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:12,720 issues that are going on and things that they need to resolve 928 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,560 to an independent body so that you feel that the process is 929 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,360 fair and they get a say. So that that's something I would 930 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,360 like to see. Can you recommend any readings 931 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,920 for our trainees that might be helpful for them to get a better 932 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,480 understanding of the what the parole board does? 933 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:30,920 Well, it's on offer at the moment on Amazon. 934 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,000 So, so certainly, I'm obviously going to say you should have a 935 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,360 look at my book because I'm very proud of it. 936 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,120 It's the first time a parole board member's ever had the 937 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,360 opportunity to write about what we do. 938 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,120 Because before that everything was, was secret. 939 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,680 All our decisions were made in private. 940 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,600 We couldn't explain why we made the decisions that we made. 941 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,200 And the law changed some years ago. 942 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,760 And that that opened up the opportunity for the TV programme 943 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:51,760 and also for me to write that book. 944 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,400 If you want to understand more about about the Parole board 945 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,360 then certainly have a read of that. 946 00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:01,080 I would also recommend though that you look at other people's 947 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,640 experiences. So in the book I talk about 948 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,080 Stephen Gallon who wrote a book called The Road to London 949 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,480 Bridge. He tackled Usman Khan when he 950 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,200 was out on day release on his life licence and and his book is 951 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,200 really insightful into what really happens in prisons. 952 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,680 It really gives you an idea of what day-to-day life is like in 953 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,640 prisons. And and there was a guy called 954 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,960 Chris Atkins who wrote a bit of a stretch and have a read of his 955 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,960 book as well. Information is key. 956 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,520 I fully support and recommend everyone to read your book. 957 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,600 You've got some really insightful reflections on your 958 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,680 own experiences, and I think getting an understanding of that 959 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,680 for our training probation officers would really help them 960 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,760 to understand the parole process. 961 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,600 But also, as you say, learning from other people have lived the 962 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,120 experience of being in prison or going through the system helps 963 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,320 you to understand it, doesn't it? 964 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,280 Thank you very much. So we come to the end of the 965 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,680 podcast, but my final question to you really, is there anything 966 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,640 important that we haven't covered, anything that you came 967 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,200 here to say that we haven't given you the opportunity to 968 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,800 say? Always try and think about what 969 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,240 it is you don't know. That doesn't mean you've got to 970 00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:09,520 go and upend every stone in in in a case, but just really check 971 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,400 that you've got to grips with it all that that really you haven't 972 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,680 just focused on these other convictions and that's it. 973 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,120 That you've really looked at somebody's life and and 974 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,480 understood what they're about. If we can all be as open as 975 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,960 possible in our thinking, I think we'll all do a decent job 976 00:48:25,240 --> 00:48:27,480 and it's nice to be nice. So let's just be nice to each 977 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,120 other. It's a good final word, isn't 978 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,920 it? Thanks for listening to 979 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,840 Probation Perspectives Insights into Community Justice. 980 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,880 We hope our conversation with Robert McKeon gave you a clear 981 00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,600 understanding of the parole process and the vital role 982 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,840 probation plays in it. If you are AP Clip, we hope that 983 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,760 this episode gave you some tips for developing your skills and 984 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:53,040 confidence in this area, from preparing for an oral hearing 985 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,760 and the importance of probation officers trying to develop a 986 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,960 positive working alliance. If you found this episode 987 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,080 helpful, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your 988 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,800 colleagues or fellow learners. We'd love to hear your thoughts 989 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,880 or suggestions for future topics and guests. 990 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,000 A huge thank you to Rob for sharing his insights and to 991 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,320 everyone working behind the scenes who helped make this 992 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,080 podcast possible. We'll be back soon with more 993 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,840 conversations that shine a light on the practise, purpose and 994 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,120 people behind probation and community justice. 995 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,360 Until next time, take care.