Welcome to Probation Perspectives, Insights into
Community Justice, the podcast where we explore the people,
research and practises shaping probation and rehabilitation
today. Whether you're beginning your
Pequip journey, working on the front line, or simply interested
in evidence based approaches to justice, this podcast is your
space for meaningful conversations and practical
insight. In today's episode, we're joined
by Doctor Sarah Waite and Doctor Alexandria Bradley, 2 leading
researchers whose work focuses on women's problem solving
courts and the experiences of women navigating the criminal
justice system. We discuss what makes these
courts distinct and why gender responsivity matters.
Problem solving courts are a recent development in the UK.
They're underpinned by values of rehabilitation and this idea of
therapeutic jurisprudence and problem solving and their aim to
address underlying needs of people coming through the
courts. We explore the crucial role of
communication, reflecting on how to focus on strengths rather
than deficits, and what their research reveals about creating
trauma informed supportive environments.
How on earth can we speak about the power of trauma informed
approaches or relational approaches when women are
terrified that we cannot escape that felt sense and the way in
which that will be debility and then really overwhelming for
women? It's a thoughtful and evidence
LED conversation that highlights what women's problem solving
courts can teach us about better supporting women in contact with
probation. Let's get into our conversation
with Sarah and Alex. So welcome, Sarah and Alex, it's
really great to have you with us on the podcast this morning.
If you could share a bit about your background, your research,
introduce yourselves and how you became involved in researching
women's problem solving courts. So my name is Doctor Sarah Witt.
I'm a senior lecturer in criminology in the law school at
Leeds Beckett University. My research really broadly, my
interests are in criminal justice responses to women.
I did my PhD research on staff prisoner relationships in
woman's prisons and became really interested in this area
of trust. And then I've done work on
woman's estate specific training with prison officers and then
more recently the work with Alex on problem solving courts for
women. My name is Doctor Alexandria
Bradley, Senior Lecturer in Criminology at Leeds Beckett
University, and my PhD was around the implementation of
trauma informed practise within prison environments, but both
male and female prisons. And that's just due to my
previous line of work within drug and alcohol teams inside a
young male prison and a female prison as well, and the
connection to, you know, and trauma.
So that's where my trauma informed journey started all the
way back in 2012 really. I specialise in trauma informed
practise and approach and responsive approaches, but
mostly the implementation science and frameworks that are
associated with that. I'm really, really interested in
how people experience that relational approach.
What does that mean for people's assistance or recovery and just
the healing journeys in general, their relationships and how
they're navigating life. But a lot of my work and
research really takes place within, you know, the context of
prisons, probation, delivery services, units and typically
more secure environments. But more recently I've been
doing quite a lot of work with schools, which is a neuro
diverse person. I've found quite a lot of
meaning personally, but also professionally.
So thinking about trauma informed support strategies for
neuro diverse children both inside and outside the
classroom. So that's been quite a beautiful
positive experience. So a lot of trauma informed
supportive and caring and love and compassion at work really.
And and obviously how that is then imported within the effects
the court. So that's how Sarah and I
approached this project. And how could trauma informed
practise or gender responsive practise be applied within the
context of these punitive spaces?
Thank you Alex, I just wondered just for listeners that might
not be as familiar with trauma informed or gender responsive
practises, what do you mean by those terms?
We're thinking about trauma informed practise, I suppose
we're thinking about like the way in which core values of
experience, they're maximised. So you know, a lot of people
will be all fair with safety, trust, choice, collaboration,
empowerment, as well as sort of equity, gendered experiences and
cultural experiences as well and completely trauma informed
practise. Gender responsivity matters
because a lot of women's experiences are are shaped by
gendered social structural histories of trauma as well.
And really what we're trying to think about is how gender and
trauma informed practises can support proportionality,
engagement, access, depth of relationship, that's that's
meaningful to support women really within the context of the
criminal justice system definitely.
So today we're focusing on your research around women's problem
solving courts. But what does that really mean?
How is it different from a more traditional kind of court
process? So.
Problem solving courts are a recent development in the UK.
They draw on models that emerged in the United States in the
1980s, and they're underpinned by values of rehabilitation,
this idea of therapeutic jurisprudence and problem
solving. And they aim to address
underlying needs of people coming through the courts
through what's meant to be judicially led and collaborative
approaches. So there's no single model and
we do actually have a variation of models across the United
Kingdom when it comes specifically to women's problem
solving courts, but they typically involve things like
procedural justice, judicial monitor monitoring, the
specialisation element, which is where gender comes in and multi
agency intervention and supervision.
So for women in UK, in the UK at the moment we have the
Manchester model, which is one of the most long standing
models. It was developed in 2014 by
Fiona Deacon and her colleagues in Greater Manchester.
So it's been around for over 10 years.
There is the female offender car in Glasgow which operates on a
deferred sentence model. And then there is the new
intensive supervision car which is currently being piloted in
Birmingham for women. So they do have slight
operational differences but the general shared features are that
these courts are gender responsive.
Manchester model and the ISC model are a post sentence
provision. They involve multi agency
working with probation and women's centres, regular
judicial reviews. So women will be given their
order and then reviewed in court in front of the same judge or
magistrate. And then there's a real emphasis
on practise, relational practise, things like trust,
things like trauma informed working.
So does that take some of them fear out of it?
Because in some ways if you're saying the women have got to go
back and see the judge or the magistrate again, which
hopefully would be saying you've been doing well, but not always.
I just wondered, you know, court can be quite a daunting process,
can't it? But if it's meant to be trauma
informed, how does it different slightly or doesn't it?
But for women it doesn't take the fear away because it is they
are coming back in front of a judge or magistrate of course
sentence when the order, especially in Birmingham is an
alternative to custody. In Manchester it operates a
little bit differently in that women eligible there are it's
either there are immediate risk of custody or they are on a
medium to high level order. I mean, generally from the work
that Alex and I did, and I think Alex can speak a bit more about
this and the environment, going back to court after being
sentenced is a scary, scary thing for women.
And a lot of the women talked about the entire process and the
lead up to actually going into courts or receiving particular
letters. And in our report, we've been
able to mock up what that letter and the language within that
letter would look like. So what what we're really trying
to emphasise is the the fear and the feelings associated with the
reviews as a whole. So from the received of the
letter at home to the preparation, going to see a
probation officer, preparing for the review, reading the review
reports, seeing your offence time and time again, being
reminded of all of this. Women shared with us how fearful
the were the night before and just the environment and as a
whole feeling incredibly punitive and the association of
of being potentially imprisoned or, you know, fearing for
potential sort of imprisonment sentences.
And I think I think that matters and that absolutely shapes the
way in which women engage the information that women may may
freely share and also the way in which women present within those
spaces. And so thinking about the social
desirability answers and, and, and that performative aspect,
which ultimately doesn't really get to the crux of what women
need or you know, what women are asking for because there's such
a fear associated with it. And I think for us, you know,
thinking about this being a post sentence review, how on earth
can we speak about the power of trauma informed approaches or
relational approaches when women are terrified that we cannot
escape that felt sense and the way in which that will, you
know, be debilitating and then really overwhelming for women.
So I think, you know, we do really need to think
compassionately about that. And, and we sort of tried our
best, whilst obviously the context is different, to really
understand the sensory experiences of women.
Not just from how women, you know, experience that
environment, but us walking through those spaces as well,
trying to navigate to the particular courtrooms and what
what were we experiencing? What might women come into
contact with? I suppose I think.
One of the really interesting things as well, just to sort of
drive home about that, was that all the stakeholders that we
interviewed as part of the research was saying the same
thing about the environment. So the judiciary and probation
staff were talking about the difficulties and women in
particular were talking about that shame and stigma of being
seen outside. Just going into the court, you
know that that was really important for a lot of women.
They were saying punished, I've been sentenced, but somebody's
seen me going into the courts this, they'll be thinking, oh,
what's she done this time? So that whole experience, and
that was the case even when women were saying they were
having quite positive conversations in the review or
if they were experiencing some validation from some of the
conversations, they were still talking about the courtroom
environment as something that was particularly distressing
and. Even though women couldn't be
breached as part of not attending these reviews within
Manchester, all of the women that were spoke to because of
the environment did feel like that was a potential.
And so that just shows us how oppressive that environment is,
even though that information is is made clear because of the
nature of the environment. It didn't fit.
It felt formal, you know, it felt punitive.
What I'm hearing from you is that the underlying idea and
approach from the problem solving courts was about is
about trying to find ways of supporting and using a whole
whole systems approach to supporting those that are going
through the problem solving court.
But it's not really meeting the needs of being trauma informed.
It's not gender responsive and it's not delivering maybe what
it what needs to deliver. So the environment sounds like
it's it's a really big problem and also the way that
everything's communicated to the women there.
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the other key
things is that the staff have had some trauma informed
training. So I think there's a dialogue
there in that that then means that this is a trauma informed
process or space or thing which actually there's so much more to
it. You know, there's so much more
to a court and court space and the context of the resourcing of
courts at the moment that means that it is so difficult, I would
personally say near on impossible to make a courtroom
and a court building trauma informed.
There's the security going through, it's like airport
security going through into those spaces, whether they're in
criminal courts and civil courts and thinking about these as
being gender responsive. That means experiences of
course, previous to these post sentence reviews of us, the over
representation of women with care experience and all sorts of
really negative interventions through legal proceedings that
women having children are removed through social care
proceedings as well as the lack of court resources at the
moment. And we see interpreters not
turning up for things. We see lengthy weights for trial
dates and all sorts of of things which just add to how practises
share. But it isn't just magistrates
courts. Obviously we have reviewed
Manchester's model and they are held within magistrates courts.
But it, it's not just that because if we, if we are really
recognising through like a gender responsive model, what
women have experienced being in family court and civil courts,
those spaces are just as impactful and devastating for
women. And that that fear associated
with that too. Environment's key really for any
model in order for women to feel safe and comfortable to have
those discussions that that matter.
This this isn't the first time they've been in those
environments and their those past experiences impact their
current experience and how they approach it and how they
understand it. So that recognition of what's
happened to you and what you're bringing to this experience
needs to be recognised and understood, doesn't it?
OK. So identifying that the court
process isn't necessarily trauma informed, were you able to
identify anything about the role that probation officers and
those on the P Quip programme, the part that probation officers
could play in being more trauma informed or helping women
through the process? So just really generally when
Alex and I went into this model, we had lots of positive things
about the innovative problem solving courts and so we're
really keen to look at what's good.
A lot of women did speak about problem solving court order
really generically as a positive thing.
And so when we impact that further, it was the work that
the probation staff were doing in collaboration with the
Women's Centre. So in the term problem solving
court, the court really is centred as the model, but
actually when we look at the problem solving that is going
on, that relational practise, all the positive experiences, it
was definitely an hour coming from probation staff and women's
centre spaces and women's centre workers.
And really like the findings of the report, you know, emphasised
the relational practise between probation staff and women.
The probation staff as well as the women's centres were really
celebrated within the findings of the report.
Women spoke really highly about the empathetic support,
flexibility and that recognition that women have got a lot of
things going on. And actually we did see quite a
lot of advocacy from probation within those spaces.
So so probation staff within that environment really can
advocate for and be that gap, that bridge between the
judiciary and women and specialist services as well.
So really probation and women's centres are the key to translate
and trauma informed approaches within that space.
They were really sort of crucial for that.
Yeah, I think that's really nice for our probation staff
listeners to hear because we know so many of them work really
hard and really care about the people that they're supporting.
And so it's really nice that actually some of the women that
you interviewed shared that actually they found their
probation officer operation worker really supportive.
So that's great. And one of the other things that
your research highlights is that women value ownership,
visibility and participation. I just wondered from those
trainee probation officers, what tips or advice would you give
them in their work with women? Yeah.
So I think that is about advocacy as much as possible.
I think that it's really difficult to work in a system
where you have very little power to be able to do certain things.
But that for us was about the involvement of lived experience
and advocating for women to create spaces for the knowledge,
their expertise that you know, their feelings, their
experiences to be valued and form part of the process and and
part of the decision making. I think as well sometimes the
involvement of lived experience is can be a bit more
consultative than suggestions that are made by women are not
really taken forward or not given the opportunity to have
any impact. And that's something that really
needs to change. I think in the report when Alex
and I were talking about the involvement of lived experience,
it was really to embed it throughout the model.
We're about to see the roll out of intensive supervision cards
for women and they haven't come from the bottom up, designed by
women who have experiences of the criminal justice system.
And it doesn't necessarily have to be active experience.
It can be past experience. There is so much to learn.
There is so much knowledge and expertise there that people that
don't have that experience, it's on, you know, we just, it's like
a blind for and I think that it would just mitigate a lot of the
gaps that we're seeing in practise.
So for example, in involving and recruiting and paying women to
be part of the training of the team, to be part of the
recruitment panel of the team to support other women.
It would just plug those gaps in knowledge, those gaps in social
distance that we see between the judiciary and the women that
they speak and interact with. I think it can be done on a few
levels. So for training probation
officers, P quips to learn about how they could involve people
with lived experience, what's available in their local area,
and for them to develop those links, develop that
understanding, to help them with their work, with the women
they're working with. Yeah, absolutely.
And I feel like we're starting to see a real movement in lived
experience expertise. So I suppose it's reading things
that written by people with lived experience, listening to
things, going to seminars on by people with lived experience,
just really valuing seeking out that knowledge.
Communication came through as another key theme in your
report, especially avoiding stigma and offence focused
language. So I just wondered what does
clear or person centred communication look like within
problem solving course and how can P Quips develop these skills
I. Think when you think about when
we're talking about sort of trauma informed communication,
you know, it, it, there's a little veil, isn't there?
People don't really know what that means.
But and, and it isn't rocket science, you know, it doesn't
require specialist training necessarily.
It really does require like humanity and, and I guess the
thinking is it is based on transparency.
It is based on, let me get back to you, given clear timelines,
clear time frames, setting out expectations, boundaries are
really important. But also if it is going to be a
no, which it will be, can you, can you give some information
about that? Can you give an explanation as
to why these are the avenues that I've explored for you?
This is the result of this. How can I support you further?
It's about, it's about having that, that really honest and
authentic communication. You know, everybody's human.
Ultimately, it's about respecting one another and about
avoiding deficit focus language. So this is something that is
really critical to our own perception of the people that
we're working with or anybody, nobody who we're working with.
It can either, you know, label and shame people rather than
actually acknowledging sort of effort and the context in which
people are existing in, you know, So, you know, sometimes
this is translated in office discussions.
And you know, when I worked in drug and alcohol teams and
prisons, I spent a lot of time unpicking the language that was
being used within those spaces around addiction because I grew
up with people who were battling addiction.
So, you know, I had that that particular viewpoint and that
particular passion to to untangle that language.
And one of the examples that I always use is caring for the
elderly. And that language like connects
to vulnerability, frailty. And actually, if we switched
that up and said caring for elders, we're actually starting
to think about the person, we're starting to think about their
achievements, you know, their lived experiences over the life
course, you know, how much have they given to society and their
community. So language really matters.
And I suppose that matters within our communication.
So I think for P quips, for probation staff and for anyone
in a Co located service, please don't be afraid to challenge
language within those environments.
Language hugely impacts the lens in which we are seeing people in
and if we can shift it towards the strength based format, you
know, that's really, really going to change our frame of
reference. And that really can only be done
through reflective practise. Having that opportunity to to do
it individually, but also as a group, as a collective group in
a Safeway. I'm using the word challenge.
I mean, that doesn't sound very trauma informed, does it?
But I do think that it has to be safe in order to say, I noticed
you said that yesterday. How were you feeling about that?
Because a lot of the time people are frustrated, people are burnt
out, people are, you know, exhausted.
So we're not always in our window of tolerance and
operating in our best self and that that is OK.
What do we then do in terms of relational repair and resetting
ourselves? So these conversations with
colleagues, you've given some really good examples there, and
you're talking about verbally, but also written language.
And I know that in the report carried out with Madeleine
Petrillo, you gave some really good examples of tweaks in
language that can change how somebody views it.
Because women, people that these reports are being written about
might very well read what's being written about them and to
be aware of those changes in language.
They are, and I talk about my own school reports, a sort of
neuro diverse child who struggled to sit in classrooms.
One of the teachers said that I had nothing of interest to see
and and that is enormous. How could you say that about a
six year old, you know, and when I read that through a trauma
informed lens, because I can't help, I can't help but look at
little Alex, you know, in school.
And I think that message, you know, how does that help a
parent, you know, and you know, what does that mean for the
child and how they see themselves and they see their
voice. And when we think about the
words that are written on paper about women who are navigating
all kinds of hurdles and who are out there surviving and, you
know, doing their absolute best, taking, taking them back to that
particular negative deficit focus place, it's absolutely
counter intuitive to any form of empowerment.
I think 2 really good examples for women in particular are
vulnerability and then complex needs because we use those with
such good intentions constantly all the time without really
reflecting and unpicking and also thinking about how women
feel about being called things like that.
Generally women don't like this idea of vulnerable and what that
means and who that lays responsibility on.
And then complex needs. I think when we unpick that
we're not, these needs aren't complex really, they're just
sort of basic everyday housing, health, relationships that don't
harm us. The the basic needs that need
meeting. And if we look at it, usually
it's the complex systems that are under resolved, resourced or
have really strict criteria that are not able to meet these
needs. So it's about that switching the
framing from this idea of complex needs.
Well really we've got under resourced complex systems and
that are not helping people to meet basic needs.
So considering what the language means and how you can reframe it
because that also reframes the practitioners approach to it as
well. Or it can do and yeah, OK, so
looking at the collaboration from a range of different
organisations that are involved in the problem solving courts
and the different aims and approaches of those
organisations all working together, hopefully with one one
person in mind or. So looking at collaboration from
probation, the judiciary, women's centres and 3rd sector
partners. If anything came out from your
research about what effective partnership working looks like,
and specifically thinking about probation practitioners and what
they can do to try to help effective partnership working be
successful. So in Manchester they have their
whole systems approach and the evaluation has showed that
that's quite effective in reducing longer term outcomes
and outcomes like re re offending.
In the problem solving court model, the probation staff and
women's centres in Manchester, they will Co located so
probation staff would work out of the women's centres.
That made it much easier for a lot of women to travel to their
appointments. They were much safer spaces.
In interviews women would say things like oh, if we could have
the problems. I'll recall here just or
somewhere like this where I'm SAT more safe with a brew and a
biscuit. So they were real positives in
terms of the partnership working.
I suppose it's that closer sharing of expertise when you've
got staff from different agencies working together and
multi working is much more successful, isn't it?
We see, we've seen more successful models from like
youth offending teams, um, that are multi agents.
So. So colocation is really
important and I wonder if some of that is because the women
centres and the approaches that they embody and then the
probation staff that are based there, they take on some of the
approaches and and that helps them to be more gender
responsive trauma informed in their their approach.
And it also is about, you know, a much more comfortable
environment for women as well. But you know, if you do have Co
located staff, you have to work across the shared sort of value
and ethos, don't you? And you, you've got that the,
the relationships that can develop between different staff
members, the, the open and sharing of information.
So there isn't that those hurdles are working with, you
know, computer systems and you know, things like that.
So relationships are really key for for women and, and their
probation staff, but also between the probation staff and
within women's staff as well. And it's really about that
effective partnership working. And what does that look like in
practise? You know, there's clear roles,
there's regular communication, and there's the shared
understanding of woman's needs as well.
I think there's potentially some areas of friction and tension
with having probation staff and Women's centres Co located in
that their organisational values are slightly different, so to
speak. So obviously probation, they
have legal duties to breach. A lot of it is about public
protection and so it's about thinking about challenges then
and how that fits in with the direction with women's centres
and their community values and their safety, safe space values
because there is some tension there.
Women spoke to us a lot. I used the word probation as
referring to the women's centres and I suppose traditionally if
we think about Coston and maybe community women's centres and
where their values have come from, but there's potentially
some challenges there. It is a really difficult
landscape at the moment. You know, ultimately women's
centres traditionally operated in a non punitive role and you
know, we need to try and avoid expecting them to function as an
enforcement arm really, because women's centres are usually
aligned with trauma informed values, collaborative practise
that actually support women holistically and also
practically as well. And but I think more and more As
for the women's sector are engaging with Co located staff
members who are operating within statutory punishment and
enforcement frameworks. Thinking about raw days and
where those take place, I think that that does create a bit of
friction and a bit of tension in in the ultimate ethos and value
of the of the place. And that's important to reflect
on and start to recognise. So for any probation staff that
are working in women's centres to and equally if they they're
in an area where there isn't a women's centre, how they can
start to build those collaborative approaches?
You've already given some good tips about reflective practise,
thinking about language or spoken and written but
reflective practises for key part of the P quip journey and
obviously it's really encouraged for probation staff in general.
So I just wondered if you had any more tips based on your
research and to highlight the importance of it and how
trainees can use reflective practise to help develop their
practise when working with women particularly?
I think people working in probation within any kind of a
punitive space or institution, I think there needs to be a
constant review of that authoritative position and just
being pragmatic and honest about it.
You know it exists, it's there. It really doesn't matter how
beautiful of a nature you have and how wonderful you are, that
will always exist and that's important to recognise.
I think there's no getting away from that.
However, women within the research really emphasise the
importance of feel and listen to feel and respected and
understood, and relationships can exist within those
parameters. Of course they can, and we did
see some amazing examples of relational support within that
as well. But like reflection and
certainly thinking about our values and our role within this
really helps us to consider the way in which we communicate with
people, the language that we're using, the decision making, how
that might unintentionally reinforce experiences of stigma
or trauma for women and really helping people to reflect on
power, our dynamic emotional responses.
And here and now. There are sometimes, you know,
traumas, ugly, you know, trauma, when trauma manifests, it's,
it's, it can be frightening for practitioners.
It can be really quite unsettling.
It can also connect to things that are happening within our
personal lives as well. I think, you know, when, when
people become like really distressed, you know, reflective
practise is essential. How did I respond?
Why did I respond like that? Having that professional
curiosity to think about our own selves as well.
So it's also about practitioner self-care, but you know,
ultimately thinking about women's feedback, you know,
sometimes people can give you feedback that you may not like,
that may not align with how you see something.
But that perspective is so essential.
And unpicking why women may feel that way can be done within
those reflective practise spaces as well, as well as how we're
feeling as as potential practitioners.
So really it's about using reflection as a continuous tool
for growth, for learning, for ethical work and ethical
decision making. And sometimes growth requires us
to be really authentic about our own perceptions and feelings and
values and thinking about the P quip competencies.
Ultimately, you know it all connects, doesn't it?
Thank you, Alex. That's some really helpful
things to think about for our students.
So this is the part of the podcast where we give you a
magic wand. And if you could make one major
change in probation and how probation services support
women, what would be the change? Sarah, should we come to you
first? When you say a magic wand, I'm
just thinking how visionary I can actually be.
On any level, people have gone really big with this power.
Some people have gone quite. If I had a magic wand it would
be sustainable funding for bottom up community generated
women's centres, you know that would be it.
I love it. I wish we could grant you that
it happens right now. Very good.
I'm going to get on a little trauma soapbox, so I'll try and
keep this brief. I think over the last decade,
there's been such an intense focus on trauma, developing
trauma awareness, focusing on Aces and obviously public
protection, safeguarding is absolutely critical to the role
of probation and the justice system, you know, but I think
there's, there's caution, you know, with, with trauma
disclosures of how that information is, is being used.
And when women are disclosing abuse or mental health needs,
really we need to be careful associating those as indicators
of risk or non compliance rather than actually it being really
important context that requires us to listen, to provide empathy
and to to recognise where flexibility is needed and
tailoring of meaningful support. And I think sometimes this
approach might risk unintentionally punishing
women's survival. And actually, if we're in
reinforcing stigma and lack of trust within the systems.
And actually, really what I would love is to focus on and
Sarah and I've talked about the grit of women, of criminalised
women and the possibilities of post traumatic growth or how
strong women are and actually how this could align with
probation work and engagement and strengthen and trust, which
is really the core aims. You know, when we're thinking
about like desistance as a whole or recovery and just really
ensuring that women aren't harmed by disclosing and
trusting that person with these experiences and just making sure
that the systems are, are working in the way that they,
they truly want to. So, and I think, you know, we
just need to take a minute and think about what we're doing.
Yeah, I think that's really key to think about, isn't it?
And trying to make sure there is enough support in place.
Absolutely. So thank you very much.
You've both published widely on these topics.
And our next question is about recommendations that you've got
for listeners wanting to explore this further.
So I feel a bit shameless doing a shameless plug.
Myself and Natalie Rutter have an edited collection called
Women, Relationships and Criminal Justice, The Personal
and the Professional. That is a wonderful collection
that has contributions from a huge range of brilliant people.
So we have a chapter in there from Exploration Officer
reflecting on if we're meeting the needs of women.
We have chapters in there for women involved in working in the
women's centres and chapters and contributions in there from
women who have experience of criminal justice processes as
well as academics and research. So that would be mine, which is
a bit of a shameless self club, but like I say, there's so many
amazing contributions within that.
Excellent. We'll make sure the details of
that are in the show. Thanks for those podcasts, Alex.
Any recommendation? It's just something that Sarah
actually introduced to us recently, which is a really fab
article by Caviar Padinanabam about thinking intersectionally
about state power and resistance in the bread and Women's centre
in England. That's a really powerful article
and I would so recommend people to read it for multiple reasons.
Thinking about British women's experiences of marginalisation
of race and class and gender immigration, just those
intersecting marginalisations within the criminalisation of
women. But also thinking about gender
responsive justice programmes and how how that can sometimes
feel connected to state power. But just thinking about some of
the things that we've talked about today, those those
connections, I think that's a really powerful article.
I really enjoyed reading it. How would you recommend that?
Excellent, should help our our P quips to reflect on their their
role as probation officers then it sounds like a a useful one
for that. Thank you very much.
So our final question to you both is, is there anything that
you came here today to say that you haven't had the opportunity
to say? I'd just like to say I know that
we've really unpicked problem solving approaches for women.
There are, there are some wonderful examples
internationally of good practise.
So the Argentinian model for example, where the the reviews
actually take place in a community centre, everybody's
round sitting at tables, they have a really low reoffending
rate following that there's no breach when people who breach
are not going to be sent to prison for 28 days.
We're talking about it within the context of England and Wales
is dominated by sort of risks and managerialism.
There are some great examples of good practise internationally
and if we can avoid shoehorning those into our risk based
systems, there's some real promise.
There anything final from you, Alex?
I I sometimes though, when we talk about problem solving core,
we're, we're focusing on what the women were really passionate
about sharing with us and we're called it listening to women
learning for justice for a reason.
So this isn't anything personal with for me and Sarah.
We're really just trying our best to really honour what the
women have shared with us and trying our best to to help that
to shape, you know, the way in which we move forward with this,
because for alternatives to prison are really important.
Of course they are. But ultimately thinking about,
you know, what do women need from these these processes?
So having that lived experience involvement.
But you know, recently Sarah and I in a conversation where just
sort of said, just make it matter or just please make it
matter, you know, and, and everyone working in the justice
system cares deeply. That is our shared you know,
academics and policy makers, practitioners care deeply about
this and and they care deeply about people that they're
serving. And support and so let's listen.
Thank you. That's a really important final
message. So let's listen.
Let's listen to the voices and the past experiences and make
sure that it's embraced within the practise that's delivered.
Thank you very much, Alex and Sarah.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to Probation Perspectives Insights
into community justice. We hope our conversation with
Doctor Sarah Waite and Doctor Alexandria Bradley offered
valuable insight into how women's problem solving courts
can better meet the distinct needs of women in the criminal
justice system. From trauma informed
environments to collaborative support from women's centres, we
hope this episode highlighted the importance of gender
responsive practise and the role probation officers can play in
ensuring women feel heard, respected and supported.
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a
review, and share it with colleagues or learners who might
find it helpful. And we always welcome your
thoughts, feedback, or suggestions for future guests.
A big thank you to Sarah and Alex for sharing their research
and to everyone behind the scenes who helps bring probation
perspectives to life. We'll be back soon with more
conversations exploring the practise, purpose and people
shaping probation and community justice.
Until next time, take care.