1 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:06,880 Welcome to Probation Perspectives, Insights into 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,840 Community Justice, the podcast where we explore the people, 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,000 research and practises shaping probation and rehabilitation 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,880 today. Whether you're beginning your 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,560 Pequip journey, working on the front line, or simply interested 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,120 in evidence based approaches to justice, this podcast is your 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,600 space for meaningful conversations and practical 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,280 insight. In today's episode, we're joined 9 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,280 by Doctor Sarah Waite and Doctor Alexandria Bradley, 2 leading 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,120 researchers whose work focuses on women's problem solving 11 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,040 courts and the experiences of women navigating the criminal 12 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,600 justice system. We discuss what makes these 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,680 courts distinct and why gender responsivity matters. 14 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,080 Problem solving courts are a recent development in the UK. 15 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,200 They're underpinned by values of rehabilitation and this idea of 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:57,240 therapeutic jurisprudence and problem solving and their aim to 17 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,440 address underlying needs of people coming through the 18 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,080 courts. We explore the crucial role of 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,880 communication, reflecting on how to focus on strengths rather 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,240 than deficits, and what their research reveals about creating 21 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,440 trauma informed supportive environments. 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,880 How on earth can we speak about the power of trauma informed 23 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,240 approaches or relational approaches when women are 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,680 terrified that we cannot escape that felt sense and the way in 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,960 which that will be debility and then really overwhelming for 26 00:01:28,960 --> 00:01:32,120 women? It's a thoughtful and evidence 27 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,840 LED conversation that highlights what women's problem solving 28 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,840 courts can teach us about better supporting women in contact with 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,280 probation. Let's get into our conversation 30 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:52,900 with Sarah and Alex. So welcome, Sarah and Alex, it's 31 00:01:52,900 --> 00:01:55,780 really great to have you with us on the podcast this morning. 32 00:01:55,780 --> 00:01:59,220 If you could share a bit about your background, your research, 33 00:01:59,220 --> 00:02:02,700 introduce yourselves and how you became involved in researching 34 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:06,740 women's problem solving courts. So my name is Doctor Sarah Witt. 35 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:10,460 I'm a senior lecturer in criminology in the law school at 36 00:02:10,460 --> 00:02:13,980 Leeds Beckett University. My research really broadly, my 37 00:02:13,980 --> 00:02:17,080 interests are in criminal justice responses to women. 38 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,320 I did my PhD research on staff prisoner relationships in 39 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,480 woman's prisons and became really interested in this area 40 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,000 of trust. And then I've done work on 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,280 woman's estate specific training with prison officers and then 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,480 more recently the work with Alex on problem solving courts for 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,600 women. My name is Doctor Alexandria 44 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,320 Bradley, Senior Lecturer in Criminology at Leeds Beckett 45 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,320 University, and my PhD was around the implementation of 46 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,960 trauma informed practise within prison environments, but both 47 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,320 male and female prisons. And that's just due to my 48 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,160 previous line of work within drug and alcohol teams inside a 49 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,960 young male prison and a female prison as well, and the 50 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,400 connection to, you know, and trauma. 51 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,280 So that's where my trauma informed journey started all the 52 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,600 way back in 2012 really. I specialise in trauma informed 53 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,040 practise and approach and responsive approaches, but 54 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,760 mostly the implementation science and frameworks that are 55 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,760 associated with that. I'm really, really interested in 56 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,680 how people experience that relational approach. 57 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,440 What does that mean for people's assistance or recovery and just 58 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,920 the healing journeys in general, their relationships and how 59 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:35,760 they're navigating life. But a lot of my work and 60 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,800 research really takes place within, you know, the context of 61 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,560 prisons, probation, delivery services, units and typically 62 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,400 more secure environments. But more recently I've been 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,640 doing quite a lot of work with schools, which is a neuro 64 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,440 diverse person. I've found quite a lot of 65 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,520 meaning personally, but also professionally. 66 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,680 So thinking about trauma informed support strategies for 67 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,480 neuro diverse children both inside and outside the 68 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,520 classroom. So that's been quite a beautiful 69 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,440 positive experience. So a lot of trauma informed 70 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,760 supportive and caring and love and compassion at work really. 71 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,320 And and obviously how that is then imported within the effects 72 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,560 the court. So that's how Sarah and I 73 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,200 approached this project. And how could trauma informed 74 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,680 practise or gender responsive practise be applied within the 75 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,280 context of these punitive spaces? 76 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,240 Thank you Alex, I just wondered just for listeners that might 77 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,560 not be as familiar with trauma informed or gender responsive 78 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,880 practises, what do you mean by those terms? 79 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,760 We're thinking about trauma informed practise, I suppose 80 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,840 we're thinking about like the way in which core values of 81 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,200 experience, they're maximised. So you know, a lot of people 82 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,960 will be all fair with safety, trust, choice, collaboration, 83 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:53,000 empowerment, as well as sort of equity, gendered experiences and 84 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,680 cultural experiences as well and completely trauma informed 85 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,960 practise. Gender responsivity matters 86 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,320 because a lot of women's experiences are are shaped by 87 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,360 gendered social structural histories of trauma as well. 88 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,800 And really what we're trying to think about is how gender and 89 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,960 trauma informed practises can support proportionality, 90 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:20,320 engagement, access, depth of relationship, that's that's 91 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,840 meaningful to support women really within the context of the 92 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:26,480 criminal justice system definitely. 93 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,720 So today we're focusing on your research around women's problem 94 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,600 solving courts. But what does that really mean? 95 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,080 How is it different from a more traditional kind of court 96 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,640 process? So. 97 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:41,840 Problem solving courts are a recent development in the UK. 98 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:46,400 They draw on models that emerged in the United States in the 99 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,880 1980s, and they're underpinned by values of rehabilitation, 100 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,760 this idea of therapeutic jurisprudence and problem 101 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,760 solving. And they aim to address 102 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,880 underlying needs of people coming through the courts 103 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,520 through what's meant to be judicially led and collaborative 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,200 approaches. So there's no single model and 105 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,200 we do actually have a variation of models across the United 106 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,600 Kingdom when it comes specifically to women's problem 107 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,280 solving courts, but they typically involve things like 108 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:23,400 procedural justice, judicial monitor monitoring, the 109 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:28,120 specialisation element, which is where gender comes in and multi 110 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,040 agency intervention and supervision. 111 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:36,880 So for women in UK, in the UK at the moment we have the 112 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,120 Manchester model, which is one of the most long standing 113 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,520 models. It was developed in 2014 by 114 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,880 Fiona Deacon and her colleagues in Greater Manchester. 115 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,040 So it's been around for over 10 years. 116 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,400 There is the female offender car in Glasgow which operates on a 117 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,680 deferred sentence model. And then there is the new 118 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,920 intensive supervision car which is currently being piloted in 119 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,080 Birmingham for women. So they do have slight 120 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,360 operational differences but the general shared features are that 121 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,320 these courts are gender responsive. 122 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,800 Manchester model and the ISC model are a post sentence 123 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,360 provision. They involve multi agency 124 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,000 working with probation and women's centres, regular 125 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,720 judicial reviews. So women will be given their 126 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,040 order and then reviewed in court in front of the same judge or 127 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,440 magistrate. And then there's a real emphasis 128 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,960 on practise, relational practise, things like trust, 129 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:37,960 things like trauma informed working. 130 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,440 So does that take some of them fear out of it? 131 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,240 Because in some ways if you're saying the women have got to go 132 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,720 back and see the judge or the magistrate again, which 133 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,840 hopefully would be saying you've been doing well, but not always. 134 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,920 I just wondered, you know, court can be quite a daunting process, 135 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,560 can't it? But if it's meant to be trauma 136 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,520 informed, how does it different slightly or doesn't it? 137 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,360 But for women it doesn't take the fear away because it is they 138 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,160 are coming back in front of a judge or magistrate of course 139 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,480 sentence when the order, especially in Birmingham is an 140 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,760 alternative to custody. In Manchester it operates a 141 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,040 little bit differently in that women eligible there are it's 142 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,400 either there are immediate risk of custody or they are on a 143 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,240 medium to high level order. I mean, generally from the work 144 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,600 that Alex and I did, and I think Alex can speak a bit more about 145 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,320 this and the environment, going back to court after being 146 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,000 sentenced is a scary, scary thing for women. 147 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,320 And a lot of the women talked about the entire process and the 148 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,480 lead up to actually going into courts or receiving particular 149 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,920 letters. And in our report, we've been 150 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,960 able to mock up what that letter and the language within that 151 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,800 letter would look like. So what what we're really trying 152 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,160 to emphasise is the the fear and the feelings associated with the 153 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,280 reviews as a whole. So from the received of the 154 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,640 letter at home to the preparation, going to see a 155 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,320 probation officer, preparing for the review, reading the review 156 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,080 reports, seeing your offence time and time again, being 157 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,440 reminded of all of this. Women shared with us how fearful 158 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,880 the were the night before and just the environment and as a 159 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,680 whole feeling incredibly punitive and the association of 160 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,840 of being potentially imprisoned or, you know, fearing for 161 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,080 potential sort of imprisonment sentences. 162 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,360 And I think I think that matters and that absolutely shapes the 163 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,400 way in which women engage the information that women may may 164 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,880 freely share and also the way in which women present within those 165 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:42,880 spaces. And so thinking about the social 166 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,120 desirability answers and, and, and that performative aspect, 167 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,360 which ultimately doesn't really get to the crux of what women 168 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,960 need or you know, what women are asking for because there's such 169 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,080 a fear associated with it. And I think for us, you know, 170 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,360 thinking about this being a post sentence review, how on earth 171 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,960 can we speak about the power of trauma informed approaches or 172 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,440 relational approaches when women are terrified that we cannot 173 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:13,440 escape that felt sense and the way in which that will, you 174 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,240 know, be debilitating and then really overwhelming for women. 175 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,680 So I think, you know, we do really need to think 176 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,880 compassionately about that. And, and we sort of tried our 177 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,560 best, whilst obviously the context is different, to really 178 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,760 understand the sensory experiences of women. 179 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,800 Not just from how women, you know, experience that 180 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,600 environment, but us walking through those spaces as well, 181 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,320 trying to navigate to the particular courtrooms and what 182 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,960 what were we experiencing? What might women come into 183 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,800 contact with? I suppose I think. 184 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,640 One of the really interesting things as well, just to sort of 185 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,760 drive home about that, was that all the stakeholders that we 186 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,960 interviewed as part of the research was saying the same 187 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,200 thing about the environment. So the judiciary and probation 188 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:02,160 staff were talking about the difficulties and women in 189 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,800 particular were talking about that shame and stigma of being 190 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,000 seen outside. Just going into the court, you 191 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,760 know that that was really important for a lot of women. 192 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,200 They were saying punished, I've been sentenced, but somebody's 193 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,720 seen me going into the courts this, they'll be thinking, oh, 194 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,760 what's she done this time? So that whole experience, and 195 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,440 that was the case even when women were saying they were 196 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,720 having quite positive conversations in the review or 197 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,480 if they were experiencing some validation from some of the 198 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,240 conversations, they were still talking about the courtroom 199 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,560 environment as something that was particularly distressing 200 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:37,920 and. Even though women couldn't be 201 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,520 breached as part of not attending these reviews within 202 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,280 Manchester, all of the women that were spoke to because of 203 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,480 the environment did feel like that was a potential. 204 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,360 And so that just shows us how oppressive that environment is, 205 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,720 even though that information is is made clear because of the 206 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,560 nature of the environment. It didn't fit. 207 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,920 It felt formal, you know, it felt punitive. 208 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,520 What I'm hearing from you is that the underlying idea and 209 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,520 approach from the problem solving courts was about is 210 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,880 about trying to find ways of supporting and using a whole 211 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,560 whole systems approach to supporting those that are going 212 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:17,080 through the problem solving court. 213 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,800 But it's not really meeting the needs of being trauma informed. 214 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,480 It's not gender responsive and it's not delivering maybe what 215 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,560 it what needs to deliver. So the environment sounds like 216 00:12:27,560 --> 00:12:30,520 it's it's a really big problem and also the way that 217 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:32,800 everything's communicated to the women there. 218 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,120 Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the other key 219 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:41,120 things is that the staff have had some trauma informed 220 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,560 training. So I think there's a dialogue 221 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:47,360 there in that that then means that this is a trauma informed 222 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,720 process or space or thing which actually there's so much more to 223 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,600 it. You know, there's so much more 224 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,800 to a court and court space and the context of the resourcing of 225 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:05,040 courts at the moment that means that it is so difficult, I would 226 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,480 personally say near on impossible to make a courtroom 227 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,560 and a court building trauma informed. 228 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:17,320 There's the security going through, it's like airport 229 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,880 security going through into those spaces, whether they're in 230 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,800 criminal courts and civil courts and thinking about these as 231 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,240 being gender responsive. That means experiences of 232 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:32,280 course, previous to these post sentence reviews of us, the over 233 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:38,240 representation of women with care experience and all sorts of 234 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,520 really negative interventions through legal proceedings that 235 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,920 women having children are removed through social care 236 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,280 proceedings as well as the lack of court resources at the 237 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:50,960 moment. And we see interpreters not 238 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,160 turning up for things. We see lengthy weights for trial 239 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,640 dates and all sorts of of things which just add to how practises 240 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,080 share. But it isn't just magistrates 241 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,920 courts. Obviously we have reviewed 242 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,640 Manchester's model and they are held within magistrates courts. 243 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,880 But it, it's not just that because if we, if we are really 244 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,560 recognising through like a gender responsive model, what 245 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,360 women have experienced being in family court and civil courts, 246 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,080 those spaces are just as impactful and devastating for 247 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,800 women. And that that fear associated 248 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,040 with that too. Environment's key really for any 249 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:35,240 model in order for women to feel safe and comfortable to have 250 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,280 those discussions that that matter. 251 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,160 This this isn't the first time they've been in those 252 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,680 environments and their those past experiences impact their 253 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,160 current experience and how they approach it and how they 254 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,080 understand it. So that recognition of what's 255 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,800 happened to you and what you're bringing to this experience 256 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,040 needs to be recognised and understood, doesn't it? 257 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,080 OK. So identifying that the court 258 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,280 process isn't necessarily trauma informed, were you able to 259 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,840 identify anything about the role that probation officers and 260 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,000 those on the P Quip programme, the part that probation officers 261 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,400 could play in being more trauma informed or helping women 262 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,600 through the process? So just really generally when 263 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,280 Alex and I went into this model, we had lots of positive things 264 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,480 about the innovative problem solving courts and so we're 265 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,760 really keen to look at what's good. 266 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,440 A lot of women did speak about problem solving court order 267 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,000 really generically as a positive thing. 268 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,800 And so when we impact that further, it was the work that 269 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,480 the probation staff were doing in collaboration with the 270 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,680 Women's Centre. So in the term problem solving 271 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,240 court, the court really is centred as the model, but 272 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,960 actually when we look at the problem solving that is going 273 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,200 on, that relational practise, all the positive experiences, it 274 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:56,120 was definitely an hour coming from probation staff and women's 275 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,480 centre spaces and women's centre workers. 276 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,320 And really like the findings of the report, you know, emphasised 277 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,240 the relational practise between probation staff and women. 278 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,680 The probation staff as well as the women's centres were really 279 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,840 celebrated within the findings of the report. 280 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,360 Women spoke really highly about the empathetic support, 281 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:20,080 flexibility and that recognition that women have got a lot of 282 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,400 things going on. And actually we did see quite a 283 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,480 lot of advocacy from probation within those spaces. 284 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,640 So so probation staff within that environment really can 285 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,920 advocate for and be that gap, that bridge between the 286 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,880 judiciary and women and specialist services as well. 287 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,800 So really probation and women's centres are the key to translate 288 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,160 and trauma informed approaches within that space. 289 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,640 They were really sort of crucial for that. 290 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,040 Yeah, I think that's really nice for our probation staff 291 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,240 listeners to hear because we know so many of them work really 292 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,560 hard and really care about the people that they're supporting. 293 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,840 And so it's really nice that actually some of the women that 294 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,839 you interviewed shared that actually they found their 295 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,920 probation officer operation worker really supportive. 296 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,400 So that's great. And one of the other things that 297 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,680 your research highlights is that women value ownership, 298 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,119 visibility and participation. I just wondered from those 299 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,839 trainee probation officers, what tips or advice would you give 300 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:23,680 them in their work with women? Yeah. 301 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,920 So I think that is about advocacy as much as possible. 302 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:34,120 I think that it's really difficult to work in a system 303 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:39,480 where you have very little power to be able to do certain things. 304 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,360 But that for us was about the involvement of lived experience 305 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:49,480 and advocating for women to create spaces for the knowledge, 306 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,400 their expertise that you know, their feelings, their 307 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:58,920 experiences to be valued and form part of the process and and 308 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,240 part of the decision making. I think as well sometimes the 309 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,680 involvement of lived experience is can be a bit more 310 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,520 consultative than suggestions that are made by women are not 311 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,880 really taken forward or not given the opportunity to have 312 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,920 any impact. And that's something that really 313 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,960 needs to change. I think in the report when Alex 314 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,520 and I were talking about the involvement of lived experience, 315 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,400 it was really to embed it throughout the model. 316 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,720 We're about to see the roll out of intensive supervision cards 317 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:35,960 for women and they haven't come from the bottom up, designed by 318 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,960 women who have experiences of the criminal justice system. 319 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,280 And it doesn't necessarily have to be active experience. 320 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,880 It can be past experience. There is so much to learn. 321 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,040 There is so much knowledge and expertise there that people that 322 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,680 don't have that experience, it's on, you know, we just, it's like 323 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,680 a blind for and I think that it would just mitigate a lot of the 324 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,000 gaps that we're seeing in practise. 325 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,920 So for example, in involving and recruiting and paying women to 326 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,800 be part of the training of the team, to be part of the 327 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,160 recruitment panel of the team to support other women. 328 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,440 It would just plug those gaps in knowledge, those gaps in social 329 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,040 distance that we see between the judiciary and the women that 330 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,040 they speak and interact with. I think it can be done on a few 331 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,720 levels. So for training probation 332 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,880 officers, P quips to learn about how they could involve people 333 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,800 with lived experience, what's available in their local area, 334 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,840 and for them to develop those links, develop that 335 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,800 understanding, to help them with their work, with the women 336 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,760 they're working with. Yeah, absolutely. 337 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,920 And I feel like we're starting to see a real movement in lived 338 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,320 experience expertise. So I suppose it's reading things 339 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,240 that written by people with lived experience, listening to 340 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,280 things, going to seminars on by people with lived experience, 341 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,920 just really valuing seeking out that knowledge. 342 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,400 Communication came through as another key theme in your 343 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,040 report, especially avoiding stigma and offence focused 344 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,840 language. So I just wondered what does 345 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,720 clear or person centred communication look like within 346 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,680 problem solving course and how can P Quips develop these skills 347 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,120 I. Think when you think about when 348 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,840 we're talking about sort of trauma informed communication, 349 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,880 you know, it, it, there's a little veil, isn't there? 350 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,600 People don't really know what that means. 351 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,640 But and, and it isn't rocket science, you know, it doesn't 352 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,360 require specialist training necessarily. 353 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,880 It really does require like humanity and, and I guess the 354 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,640 thinking is it is based on transparency. 355 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,880 It is based on, let me get back to you, given clear timelines, 356 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,760 clear time frames, setting out expectations, boundaries are 357 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,200 really important. But also if it is going to be a 358 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,120 no, which it will be, can you, can you give some information 359 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,560 about that? Can you give an explanation as 360 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,280 to why these are the avenues that I've explored for you? 361 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,000 This is the result of this. How can I support you further? 362 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,800 It's about, it's about having that, that really honest and 363 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,480 authentic communication. You know, everybody's human. 364 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,920 Ultimately, it's about respecting one another and about 365 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,320 avoiding deficit focus language. So this is something that is 366 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,880 really critical to our own perception of the people that 367 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,880 we're working with or anybody, nobody who we're working with. 368 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,280 It can either, you know, label and shame people rather than 369 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,400 actually acknowledging sort of effort and the context in which 370 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,920 people are existing in, you know, So, you know, sometimes 371 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,200 this is translated in office discussions. 372 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,360 And you know, when I worked in drug and alcohol teams and 373 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:44,600 prisons, I spent a lot of time unpicking the language that was 374 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,600 being used within those spaces around addiction because I grew 375 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,960 up with people who were battling addiction. 376 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,640 So, you know, I had that that particular viewpoint and that 377 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,720 particular passion to to untangle that language. 378 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,120 And one of the examples that I always use is caring for the 379 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:05,640 elderly. And that language like connects 380 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,560 to vulnerability, frailty. And actually, if we switched 381 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,680 that up and said caring for elders, we're actually starting 382 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,480 to think about the person, we're starting to think about their 383 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,320 achievements, you know, their lived experiences over the life 384 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,120 course, you know, how much have they given to society and their 385 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,520 community. So language really matters. 386 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,920 And I suppose that matters within our communication. 387 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,520 So I think for P quips, for probation staff and for anyone 388 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,400 in a Co located service, please don't be afraid to challenge 389 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,640 language within those environments. 390 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,800 Language hugely impacts the lens in which we are seeing people in 391 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:48,240 and if we can shift it towards the strength based format, you 392 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,800 know, that's really, really going to change our frame of 393 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,080 reference. And that really can only be done 394 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,360 through reflective practise. Having that opportunity to to do 395 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,240 it individually, but also as a group, as a collective group in 396 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,480 a Safeway. I'm using the word challenge. 397 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,400 I mean, that doesn't sound very trauma informed, does it? 398 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,800 But I do think that it has to be safe in order to say, I noticed 399 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,120 you said that yesterday. How were you feeling about that? 400 00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,760 Because a lot of the time people are frustrated, people are burnt 401 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,360 out, people are, you know, exhausted. 402 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:22,840 So we're not always in our window of tolerance and 403 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,720 operating in our best self and that that is OK. 404 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,480 What do we then do in terms of relational repair and resetting 405 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,320 ourselves? So these conversations with 406 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:35,520 colleagues, you've given some really good examples there, and 407 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,200 you're talking about verbally, but also written language. 408 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,840 And I know that in the report carried out with Madeleine 409 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,640 Petrillo, you gave some really good examples of tweaks in 410 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,600 language that can change how somebody views it. 411 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,760 Because women, people that these reports are being written about 412 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,840 might very well read what's being written about them and to 413 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,880 be aware of those changes in language. 414 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,640 They are, and I talk about my own school reports, a sort of 415 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,560 neuro diverse child who struggled to sit in classrooms. 416 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,240 One of the teachers said that I had nothing of interest to see 417 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:10,720 and and that is enormous. How could you say that about a 418 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,760 six year old, you know, and when I read that through a trauma 419 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,800 informed lens, because I can't help, I can't help but look at 420 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,160 little Alex, you know, in school. 421 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,280 And I think that message, you know, how does that help a 422 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,000 parent, you know, and you know, what does that mean for the 423 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,680 child and how they see themselves and they see their 424 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,560 voice. And when we think about the 425 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,440 words that are written on paper about women who are navigating 426 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:43,080 all kinds of hurdles and who are out there surviving and, you 427 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,560 know, doing their absolute best, taking, taking them back to that 428 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,640 particular negative deficit focus place, it's absolutely 429 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,040 counter intuitive to any form of empowerment. 430 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,200 I think 2 really good examples for women in particular are 431 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,720 vulnerability and then complex needs because we use those with 432 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,760 such good intentions constantly all the time without really 433 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,200 reflecting and unpicking and also thinking about how women 434 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,680 feel about being called things like that. 435 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,440 Generally women don't like this idea of vulnerable and what that 436 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,040 means and who that lays responsibility on. 437 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,640 And then complex needs. I think when we unpick that 438 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,160 we're not, these needs aren't complex really, they're just 439 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,200 sort of basic everyday housing, health, relationships that don't 440 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,200 harm us. The the basic needs that need 441 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,720 meeting. And if we look at it, usually 442 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,680 it's the complex systems that are under resolved, resourced or 443 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,920 have really strict criteria that are not able to meet these 444 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,280 needs. So it's about that switching the 445 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,920 framing from this idea of complex needs. 446 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,200 Well really we've got under resourced complex systems and 447 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,720 that are not helping people to meet basic needs. 448 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,160 So considering what the language means and how you can reframe it 449 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,520 because that also reframes the practitioners approach to it as 450 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,680 well. Or it can do and yeah, OK, so 451 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,400 looking at the collaboration from a range of different 452 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,520 organisations that are involved in the problem solving courts 453 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,080 and the different aims and approaches of those 454 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,280 organisations all working together, hopefully with one one 455 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,120 person in mind or. So looking at collaboration from 456 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,280 probation, the judiciary, women's centres and 3rd sector 457 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,160 partners. If anything came out from your 458 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,360 research about what effective partnership working looks like, 459 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:34,480 and specifically thinking about probation practitioners and what 460 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,520 they can do to try to help effective partnership working be 461 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,640 successful. So in Manchester they have their 462 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,000 whole systems approach and the evaluation has showed that 463 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,640 that's quite effective in reducing longer term outcomes 464 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,760 and outcomes like re re offending. 465 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,520 In the problem solving court model, the probation staff and 466 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,920 women's centres in Manchester, they will Co located so 467 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,840 probation staff would work out of the women's centres. 468 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,360 That made it much easier for a lot of women to travel to their 469 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,960 appointments. They were much safer spaces. 470 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:17,600 In interviews women would say things like oh, if we could have 471 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,640 the problems. I'll recall here just or 472 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,560 somewhere like this where I'm SAT more safe with a brew and a 473 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,360 biscuit. So they were real positives in 474 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,000 terms of the partnership working. 475 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,200 I suppose it's that closer sharing of expertise when you've 476 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,200 got staff from different agencies working together and 477 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,800 multi working is much more successful, isn't it? 478 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,640 We see, we've seen more successful models from like 479 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,360 youth offending teams, um, that are multi agents. 480 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,320 So. So colocation is really 481 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,120 important and I wonder if some of that is because the women 482 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,080 centres and the approaches that they embody and then the 483 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,320 probation staff that are based there, they take on some of the 484 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,640 approaches and and that helps them to be more gender 485 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,320 responsive trauma informed in their their approach. 486 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,040 And it also is about, you know, a much more comfortable 487 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,960 environment for women as well. But you know, if you do have Co 488 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,000 located staff, you have to work across the shared sort of value 489 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,840 and ethos, don't you? And you, you've got that the, 490 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,080 the relationships that can develop between different staff 491 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,880 members, the, the open and sharing of information. 492 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,840 So there isn't that those hurdles are working with, you 493 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,400 know, computer systems and you know, things like that. 494 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,160 So relationships are really key for for women and, and their 495 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,000 probation staff, but also between the probation staff and 496 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,520 within women's staff as well. And it's really about that 497 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,320 effective partnership working. And what does that look like in 498 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,720 practise? You know, there's clear roles, 499 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,160 there's regular communication, and there's the shared 500 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,320 understanding of woman's needs as well. 501 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,960 I think there's potentially some areas of friction and tension 502 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,800 with having probation staff and Women's centres Co located in 503 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,200 that their organisational values are slightly different, so to 504 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,840 speak. So obviously probation, they 505 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,080 have legal duties to breach. A lot of it is about public 506 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,040 protection and so it's about thinking about challenges then 507 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,840 and how that fits in with the direction with women's centres 508 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,440 and their community values and their safety, safe space values 509 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,160 because there is some tension there. 510 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,720 Women spoke to us a lot. I used the word probation as 511 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,800 referring to the women's centres and I suppose traditionally if 512 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,720 we think about Coston and maybe community women's centres and 513 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,760 where their values have come from, but there's potentially 514 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,800 some challenges there. It is a really difficult 515 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,880 landscape at the moment. You know, ultimately women's 516 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,520 centres traditionally operated in a non punitive role and you 517 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,880 know, we need to try and avoid expecting them to function as an 518 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,080 enforcement arm really, because women's centres are usually 519 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,920 aligned with trauma informed values, collaborative practise 520 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,440 that actually support women holistically and also 521 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,600 practically as well. And but I think more and more As 522 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,680 for the women's sector are engaging with Co located staff 523 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,440 members who are operating within statutory punishment and 524 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,640 enforcement frameworks. Thinking about raw days and 525 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,600 where those take place, I think that that does create a bit of 526 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:28,240 friction and a bit of tension in in the ultimate ethos and value 527 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,960 of the of the place. And that's important to reflect 528 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,560 on and start to recognise. So for any probation staff that 529 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,520 are working in women's centres to and equally if they they're 530 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,120 in an area where there isn't a women's centre, how they can 531 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,920 start to build those collaborative approaches? 532 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,880 You've already given some good tips about reflective practise, 533 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,560 thinking about language or spoken and written but 534 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,760 reflective practises for key part of the P quip journey and 535 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,640 obviously it's really encouraged for probation staff in general. 536 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,760 So I just wondered if you had any more tips based on your 537 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,240 research and to highlight the importance of it and how 538 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,240 trainees can use reflective practise to help develop their 539 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,400 practise when working with women particularly? 540 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,920 I think people working in probation within any kind of a 541 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,360 punitive space or institution, I think there needs to be a 542 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,720 constant review of that authoritative position and just 543 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,840 being pragmatic and honest about it. 544 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,520 You know it exists, it's there. It really doesn't matter how 545 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,320 beautiful of a nature you have and how wonderful you are, that 546 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,320 will always exist and that's important to recognise. 547 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,200 I think there's no getting away from that. 548 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,440 However, women within the research really emphasise the 549 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,160 importance of feel and listen to feel and respected and 550 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,120 understood, and relationships can exist within those 551 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,440 parameters. Of course they can, and we did 552 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,000 see some amazing examples of relational support within that 553 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,680 as well. But like reflection and 554 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,840 certainly thinking about our values and our role within this 555 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,840 really helps us to consider the way in which we communicate with 556 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,800 people, the language that we're using, the decision making, how 557 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,920 that might unintentionally reinforce experiences of stigma 558 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,560 or trauma for women and really helping people to reflect on 559 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,040 power, our dynamic emotional responses. 560 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,800 And here and now. There are sometimes, you know, 561 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,720 traumas, ugly, you know, trauma, when trauma manifests, it's, 562 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,120 it's, it can be frightening for practitioners. 563 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,760 It can be really quite unsettling. 564 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,240 It can also connect to things that are happening within our 565 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,400 personal lives as well. I think, you know, when, when 566 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,560 people become like really distressed, you know, reflective 567 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,160 practise is essential. How did I respond? 568 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,360 Why did I respond like that? Having that professional 569 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,880 curiosity to think about our own selves as well. 570 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,920 So it's also about practitioner self-care, but you know, 571 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,160 ultimately thinking about women's feedback, you know, 572 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,080 sometimes people can give you feedback that you may not like, 573 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,840 that may not align with how you see something. 574 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,840 But that perspective is so essential. 575 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:10,480 And unpicking why women may feel that way can be done within 576 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,720 those reflective practise spaces as well, as well as how we're 577 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,080 feeling as as potential practitioners. 578 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,600 So really it's about using reflection as a continuous tool 579 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,400 for growth, for learning, for ethical work and ethical 580 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,280 decision making. And sometimes growth requires us 581 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,560 to be really authentic about our own perceptions and feelings and 582 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,920 values and thinking about the P quip competencies. 583 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,760 Ultimately, you know it all connects, doesn't it? 584 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,920 Thank you, Alex. That's some really helpful 585 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,520 things to think about for our students. 586 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,840 So this is the part of the podcast where we give you a 587 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,160 magic wand. And if you could make one major 588 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,800 change in probation and how probation services support 589 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,000 women, what would be the change? Sarah, should we come to you 590 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,760 first? When you say a magic wand, I'm 591 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,720 just thinking how visionary I can actually be. 592 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,320 On any level, people have gone really big with this power. 593 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,160 Some people have gone quite. If I had a magic wand it would 594 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:14,560 be sustainable funding for bottom up community generated 595 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,360 women's centres, you know that would be it. 596 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,800 I love it. I wish we could grant you that 597 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,719 it happens right now. Very good. 598 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,520 I'm going to get on a little trauma soapbox, so I'll try and 599 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,120 keep this brief. I think over the last decade, 600 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,280 there's been such an intense focus on trauma, developing 601 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,280 trauma awareness, focusing on Aces and obviously public 602 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,360 protection, safeguarding is absolutely critical to the role 603 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,880 of probation and the justice system, you know, but I think 604 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,600 there's, there's caution, you know, with, with trauma 605 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,719 disclosures of how that information is, is being used. 606 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,000 And when women are disclosing abuse or mental health needs, 607 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,960 really we need to be careful associating those as indicators 608 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:08,240 of risk or non compliance rather than actually it being really 609 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:12,640 important context that requires us to listen, to provide empathy 610 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,200 and to to recognise where flexibility is needed and 611 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,720 tailoring of meaningful support. And I think sometimes this 612 00:35:19,720 --> 00:35:23,240 approach might risk unintentionally punishing 613 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:25,760 women's survival. And actually, if we're in 614 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,720 reinforcing stigma and lack of trust within the systems. 615 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:33,280 And actually, really what I would love is to focus on and 616 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,040 Sarah and I've talked about the grit of women, of criminalised 617 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,080 women and the possibilities of post traumatic growth or how 618 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,920 strong women are and actually how this could align with 619 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:48,120 probation work and engagement and strengthen and trust, which 620 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,160 is really the core aims. You know, when we're thinking 621 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,560 about like desistance as a whole or recovery and just really 622 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:59,320 ensuring that women aren't harmed by disclosing and 623 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,720 trusting that person with these experiences and just making sure 624 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,600 that the systems are, are working in the way that they, 625 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,280 they truly want to. So, and I think, you know, we 626 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,440 just need to take a minute and think about what we're doing. 627 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,960 Yeah, I think that's really key to think about, isn't it? 628 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,040 And trying to make sure there is enough support in place. 629 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,320 Absolutely. So thank you very much. 630 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,400 You've both published widely on these topics. 631 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,480 And our next question is about recommendations that you've got 632 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,760 for listeners wanting to explore this further. 633 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,800 So I feel a bit shameless doing a shameless plug. 634 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:40,880 Myself and Natalie Rutter have an edited collection called 635 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,600 Women, Relationships and Criminal Justice, The Personal 636 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,440 and the Professional. That is a wonderful collection 637 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:53,200 that has contributions from a huge range of brilliant people. 638 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,040 So we have a chapter in there from Exploration Officer 639 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,640 reflecting on if we're meeting the needs of women. 640 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,160 We have chapters in there for women involved in working in the 641 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,360 women's centres and chapters and contributions in there from 642 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,600 women who have experience of criminal justice processes as 643 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,880 well as academics and research. So that would be mine, which is 644 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,080 a bit of a shameless self club, but like I say, there's so many 645 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,400 amazing contributions within that. 646 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,320 Excellent. We'll make sure the details of 647 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,560 that are in the show. Thanks for those podcasts, Alex. 648 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,160 Any recommendation? It's just something that Sarah 649 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,920 actually introduced to us recently, which is a really fab 650 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,640 article by Caviar Padinanabam about thinking intersectionally 651 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,520 about state power and resistance in the bread and Women's centre 652 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,080 in England. That's a really powerful article 653 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,360 and I would so recommend people to read it for multiple reasons. 654 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,240 Thinking about British women's experiences of marginalisation 655 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:49,440 of race and class and gender immigration, just those 656 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,160 intersecting marginalisations within the criminalisation of 657 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,600 women. But also thinking about gender 658 00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,120 responsive justice programmes and how how that can sometimes 659 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,600 feel connected to state power. But just thinking about some of 660 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,880 the things that we've talked about today, those those 661 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,160 connections, I think that's a really powerful article. 662 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,280 I really enjoyed reading it. How would you recommend that? 663 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,320 Excellent, should help our our P quips to reflect on their their 664 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,400 role as probation officers then it sounds like a a useful one 665 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:20,920 for that. Thank you very much. 666 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,400 So our final question to you both is, is there anything that 667 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,080 you came here today to say that you haven't had the opportunity 668 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,240 to say? I'd just like to say I know that 669 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:33,720 we've really unpicked problem solving approaches for women. 670 00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:36,320 There are, there are some wonderful examples 671 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,600 internationally of good practise. 672 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,320 So the Argentinian model for example, where the the reviews 673 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,920 actually take place in a community centre, everybody's 674 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,760 round sitting at tables, they have a really low reoffending 675 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,720 rate following that there's no breach when people who breach 676 00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:57,040 are not going to be sent to prison for 28 days. 677 00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,000 We're talking about it within the context of England and Wales 678 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,600 is dominated by sort of risks and managerialism. 679 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,560 There are some great examples of good practise internationally 680 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,200 and if we can avoid shoehorning those into our risk based 681 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,360 systems, there's some real promise. 682 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,280 There anything final from you, Alex? 683 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,320 I I sometimes though, when we talk about problem solving core, 684 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,520 we're, we're focusing on what the women were really passionate 685 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,960 about sharing with us and we're called it listening to women 686 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,880 learning for justice for a reason. 687 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,960 So this isn't anything personal with for me and Sarah. 688 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,720 We're really just trying our best to really honour what the 689 00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:38,920 women have shared with us and trying our best to to help that 690 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,400 to shape, you know, the way in which we move forward with this, 691 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,520 because for alternatives to prison are really important. 692 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,520 Of course they are. But ultimately thinking about, 693 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,960 you know, what do women need from these these processes? 694 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,080 So having that lived experience involvement. 695 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,840 But you know, recently Sarah and I in a conversation where just 696 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,560 sort of said, just make it matter or just please make it 697 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,280 matter, you know, and, and everyone working in the justice 698 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,320 system cares deeply. That is our shared you know, 699 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,640 academics and policy makers, practitioners care deeply about 700 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:14,920 this and and they care deeply about people that they're 701 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,520 serving. And support and so let's listen. 702 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,280 Thank you. That's a really important final 703 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:20,480 message. So let's listen. 704 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,520 Let's listen to the voices and the past experiences and make 705 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,960 sure that it's embraced within the practise that's delivered. 706 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,880 Thank you very much, Alex and Sarah. 707 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,320 Thank you. Thank you. 708 00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:33,960 Thanks for listening to Probation Perspectives Insights 709 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,960 into community justice. We hope our conversation with 710 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,800 Doctor Sarah Waite and Doctor Alexandria Bradley offered 711 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,360 valuable insight into how women's problem solving courts 712 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,840 can better meet the distinct needs of women in the criminal 713 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,600 justice system. From trauma informed 714 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,240 environments to collaborative support from women's centres, we 715 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:53,840 hope this episode highlighted the importance of gender 716 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,120 responsive practise and the role probation officers can play in 717 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,400 ensuring women feel heard, respected and supported. 718 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,960 If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a 719 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,360 review, and share it with colleagues or learners who might 720 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,560 find it helpful. And we always welcome your 721 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,240 thoughts, feedback, or suggestions for future guests. 722 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,720 A big thank you to Sarah and Alex for sharing their research 723 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,240 and to everyone behind the scenes who helps bring probation 724 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:21,000 perspectives to life. We'll be back soon with more 725 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,880 conversations exploring the practise, purpose and people 726 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,880 shaping probation and community justice. 727 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,760 Until next time, take care.