1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,720 Welcome to Probation Perspectives insights into 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,080 Community Justice, the podcast where we dive into the world of 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,680 probation, rehabilitation and community justice. 4 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:15,040 Each episode we explore the themes, challenges and skills 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,200 that underpin effective probation practise. 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,600 Whether you're just starting out on the P quip, have years of 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,520 experience in the field, or are simply curious about the 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,960 criminal justice system, this podcast is your space for 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,320 practical insight, expert perspectives, and meaningful 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,280 conversations. In today's episode, we're joined 11 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,840 by Doctor Sarah Lewis, founder of Penal Reform Solutions and a 12 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,520 leading voice in reform and growth in the criminal justice 13 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,200 system. Investing in rehabilitation will 14 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,000 help you protect the public, supports people to be good 15 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:46,800 neighbours, which is exactly what we want. 16 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,800 We talked to Sarah about the importance of relationships and 17 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,120 probation, the challenges of maintaining hope and human 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,400 connection, and her new initiative, Justice 2.0 People. 19 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,080 Still say it was that individual probation officer that helped me 20 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,760 change my life and that's from 20 years on. 21 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,480 It's a powerful conversation that reminds us of the human 22 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,240 side of justice, work, and the importance of creating spaces 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,480 where people can thrive. Let's get into our conversation 24 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:28,000 with Sarah. So welcome, Sarah, it's really 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,080 great to have you with us here on the podcast. 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Thank you for joining us. So you're the director of Penal 27 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,640 Reform Solutions. So we're just interested for our 28 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,920 listeners, if you could tell us a bit about your journey, how 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,800 you've got here. Yeah. 30 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:45,680 So my journey within probation started 21 years ago. 31 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,000 So I worked as a probation service officer in a prison, HP 32 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,720 Winchester and then moved out into the community. 33 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,120 I worked in offender rehabilitation as they called 34 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,920 it, but programmes essentially as a facilitator. 35 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,160 I did that for about 8 years and then had the pleasure of joining 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,800 the then ICJS, which was all about training probation 37 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,720 officers. And I did that for a time, moved 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,480 over to undergraduate to teach penology and then with that got 39 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,000 a bit of a passion for prisons. So I had the amazing opportunity 40 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,480 to go to Norway where I was really inspired around creating 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:25,080 kind of rehabilitative environments and then threw that 42 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,800 all in, essentially set up on my own. 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,560 So set up in Reform Solutions and went back into prisons and 44 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,640 support probation now with culture change. 45 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:36,160 So we've been doing that for about 10 years now. 46 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,920 So we've got a small team, we've got people with lived experience 47 00:02:38,920 --> 00:02:41,560 of probation and prison. We've got former probation 48 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,800 officers, former prison officers, and we're a small 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,920 group of magical people that care deeply about changing 50 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:50,760 culture. So I'm the director of Penal 51 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,440 Form Solutions, but also the director of Grow Transform 52 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,560 Belong, which is a community interest company. 53 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:57,480 Great. Thank you. 54 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,320 So what made you kind of want to join probation in the 1st place? 55 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:01,960 What kind of led you to that, Sarah? 56 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,920 Yeah, I've always loved working with people and I was working in 57 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:09,880 a residential hostel of time for young people and I was also 58 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,600 studying forensic psychology at University of Portsmouth, do my 59 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,320 masters at the time, so I was really keen to get involved with 60 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,920 criminal justice. I did my dissertation in HMP 61 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:24,360 Holloway and a job came up in the local prison and with that 62 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,080 just thought the values of probation at the time was very 63 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,040 much focused on working with people, supporting 64 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,400 rehabilitation, and that was very much my kind of key values. 65 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,880 So I went into prison thinking it was going to be an 66 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,080 environment that was conducive to that, but learned very 67 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,200 quickly it wasn't. Hence the reform agenda, I 68 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,800 guess. In the P quip training, we refer 69 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,160 to your research regarding the importance of the therapeutic 70 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,960 alliance. It's a central part of the first 71 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,160 level 6 module they study. Can you tell us a bit more about 72 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,560 your research into the therapeutic alliance and some 73 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,040 key aspects of that? Yeah, it started when I was 74 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,200 doing my professional doctorate and I was really keen to 75 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,200 understand how can we firstly develop therapeutic 76 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,840 relationships within correctional setting in light of 77 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,240 the power dynamics and how we can deepen those relationships 78 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,480 and magnify the the impact of our practise. 79 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,680 But also I think there was just something for me about there 80 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,480 being a real gap in knowledge around how we mend things. 81 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,120 So when relationships go really are really tough or we've got to 82 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,360 make a decision like a recall or we've got to challenge an 83 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,480 individual and maybe a rupture takes place, how do we mend that 84 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,720 and how can that be done really effectively? 85 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,400 So that's really kind of sparked my interest. 86 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,600 But I think alongside that I was working in probation at the time 87 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,520 and working I guess within the therapeutic environment, within 88 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,840 programmes. And for me there was something 89 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:50,080 about Co production. So I worked really closely with 90 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,320 those that were in contact with probation and it was about how 91 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,360 can we Co create the knowledge around this. 92 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,840 So I was very keen to get those involved in probation, helping 93 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:04,600 with the design of it, of my research and understanding what 94 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,480 those relationships feel like and the impact of those 95 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,640 relationships, not only when they go well and the impact that 96 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,160 has on people and change, but also when things go bad, the 97 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,920 impact that has on people. So so that's how I came about 98 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:19,200 focusing on therapeutic relationships. 99 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,240 Thank you. And could you identify what the 100 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,640 key points are that you've identified in the early 101 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,120 research, but maybe you've developed your understanding of 102 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,040 it since then, So from the point of view of the probation 103 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,200 officer, but also from the personal probation? 104 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,680 For me, there's key elements of relationships. 105 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,720 So I think there's firstly something about having a shared 106 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,160 goal. So really acknowledging that not 107 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,360 only do we share the goal of those that we are working with 108 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,960 in terms of supporting their desistants, we both ideally want 109 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,920 that people want to live a peaceful, happy life and ideally 110 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,440 we want them to feel that. So I think there's something 111 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,520 firstly about where we orientate ourselves so very much being on 112 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,200 the on their side and saying we are supporting you and helping 113 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,680 you navigate this space in terms of supporting your assistance, I 114 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,200 guess. So having that shared goal is 115 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,760 really important. And then really clarifying what 116 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,160 are the tasks needed in order to achieve that and how we can 117 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,160 support people, not in the sense of them being dependent on us, 118 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,480 but very much giving them the tools and giving them the 119 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,520 responsibility of doing those tasks that are going to support 120 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,800 their assistance. So once they're kind of 121 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,800 established, it's also about seeing the individual. 122 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,240 I think that's what I really learnt within the Norwegian 123 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,680 work. They talk a lot about we have to 124 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,560 see people and when I worked in probation we very much threw the 125 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,040 words offender and criminal around. 126 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,080 And it was very much this case that they were objects that 127 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,360 needed managing and and risks that needed managing. 128 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,720 So things like self disclosure you just wouldn't do, you 129 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,560 wouldn't hug someone on probation. 130 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,480 That would definitely be not acceptable. 131 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,520 I think when I went to Norway and experienced securely growth 132 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,480 focused environment, people talked in really different ways 133 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,880 about those that were on probation or those in contact 134 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,920 with the with the criminal justice system more broadly. 135 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,120 And very much focused on them as people. 136 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,960 And the need to see people and see their strengths and see 137 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,360 their assets and see what they can do and contribute, but also 138 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,120 see them as human beings rather than as broken or weak or have 139 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,560 deficits of some kind. So I completely changed my 140 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,000 perspective, I think from my Norwegian work, and part of the 141 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,560 therapeutic alliance is all about how do we understand 142 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,880 people's needs. So what do we need to understand 143 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,600 in terms of around neurodiversity or how they learn 144 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,440 or what their goals are or anything around their needs 145 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,680 around addiction or journeys of recovery, whatever that may be. 146 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,640 The things that matter to them and seeing them as an individual 147 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,920 and spending time to do that will absolutely support that 148 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,160 change process, but will really help that practitioner evolve 149 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,600 and grow. And that's what it's all about. 150 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,640 It's about that Co evolution. So therapeutic alliance is very 151 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,400 much about those key elements and the fundamental part is 152 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:03,040 about our bond, how we connect with people and how close we get 153 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,600 to people. So we talk very much about these 154 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,240 red and green spaces within the therapeutic alliance that 155 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,240 sometimes you can be really far away and really distant where 156 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,480 you see individuals as objects or risks to be managed and they 157 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,200 essentially would those in in contact with you are they're 158 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,280 going to therefore going to respond in a similar way. 159 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,240 They're going to see you as a probation officer in authority, 160 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,120 not understand that you as an individual, not maybe show you 161 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,120 compassion, not want to build, build relationships with you. 162 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,760 So that relationship is really important to recognise where are 163 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,280 we standing? Are we distant? 164 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:36,840 Are we far away from an individual? 165 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,640 Are we unavailable to an individual? 166 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,280 Because if we are, they won't trust us. 167 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,520 Are we in this green space which is professional and open and 168 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,440 curious and motivating and engaging? 169 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,240 Or are we too close to that individual? 170 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,080 Are we sharing too much with them? 171 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,280 Are we getting too emotionally involved with people? 172 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,600 Sometimes, you know, we hear some really tough stuff and 173 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,440 sometimes we can take that home with us and overthink it and to 174 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,840 go over and above and that's absolutely wonderful. 175 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,120 But it's also sometimes the compromise of our own 176 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:07,000 well-being. So my model of kind of dynamic 177 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,280 relationships was all about us understanding where are we 178 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,560 standing? Have we established a shared 179 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:14,000 goal? Have we established a shared 180 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,320 task? And do we see people and do we 181 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,320 see the needs that they have? And that's the ingredients for 182 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,040 me of the therapeutic alliance. Thank you. 183 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,120 There's some really key points there and I think some important 184 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,400 reflective points for all probation officers, but 185 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,320 certainly those on the P Quip programme. 186 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,080 And you referred already to when people experience those 187 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,560 roadblocks or ruptures in their relationships with people 188 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:39,800 they're working with. Have you got any key advice 189 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,240 about those experiences? Yeah, that's just something for 190 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,480 me about investing in your own self-awareness about how you 191 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,760 talk to people. I think we are in a culture that 192 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,520 can be quite oppressive and can be quite fearful. 193 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,480 We're worried about making mistakes, we're worried about 194 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,680 serious further offences, we're worried about getting into 195 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:00,360 trouble or not doing things right. 196 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,720 And yet we're also in a very pressurised environment where 197 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,440 we've got to get things done and sometimes don't leave the 198 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,840 quality of of what we've got. So I think appreciating you that 199 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,040 that you're in a culture that is not necessarily conducive to 200 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,240 relationship building and spending the time investing in 201 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,240 that I think is important. And therefore knowing what 202 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,880 impact that culture has on you. Because it can be the tone that 203 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,480 you use, it can be the way in which you communicate, it can be 204 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,960 your non verbals, it can be your emotional leakage. 205 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,160 So things you leak out, your eye rolls, your huffs, your coughs, 206 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,640 your, your tapping of your foot, whatever it may be. 207 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,880 So for me, there's something about to avoid ruptures, really 208 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,560 genuinely listening to what people are saying and spending 209 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:43,080 the time to do that, being self aware of how you present 210 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,000 yourself in a professional capacity. 211 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,240 And also, if a rupture does take place, really, really addressing 212 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,440 that with complete compassion and empathy. 213 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,000 And when ruptures take place and we make mistakes because we're 214 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,720 essentially human, ruptures are really good in some senses, in 215 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,560 the sense of they give us opportunities to grow. 216 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:03,440 If we mend them, if we don't mend them, people will 217 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,640 disengage, we'll disengage, we'll step back into the red. 218 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,040 So we have to mend ruptures. We have to get them on the 219 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,400 table. We have to have difficult 220 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,080 conversations. And trust me because I've had 221 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,240 lots of them along the way in my career. 222 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,440 When you do that and when you are brave enough to talk about 223 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,880 those challenges, not only do you grow and gain a greater 224 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,640 insight into the complexities of people, but those individuals 225 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,480 that you serve also really, really grow and and really 226 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,080 appreciate maybe an apology that you've done something wrong, but 227 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,720 also an explanation on why that happened and, and learning for 228 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:37,520 next time. Really. 229 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,800 So ruptures are fundamental to our practise and we don't talk 230 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,600 about it. It's too difficult sometimes to 231 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,040 have those conversations, but if we have them with compassion and 232 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,160 care, with humility, then that's an opportunity for us to grow, 233 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,160 which is great because that's what we want to do. 234 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,640 Thank you for that. Some really great information 235 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,160 and advice there. So Sarah, you're very busy and 236 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,440 you're involved in many different projects. 237 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,560 Would you like to tell our listeners about some of the 238 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:04,960 projects that you're involved in? 239 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:07,040 Yes. And I would love them to get 240 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,560 involved if they're up for it. So we are currently just this 241 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:13,200 year on the 25th of February, we launched a campaign called 242 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,240 Justice 2.0. So that is our essentially 243 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,240 global movement which focuses on how we're going to upgrade 244 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,880 criminal justice and how we're going to upgrade culture. 245 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,120 So it's very much focusing on what are the things we need to 246 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,960 let go of and what are the things that we that need an 247 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,600 upgrade and what does that upgrade look like? 248 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,280 And it's based on a set of commitments. 249 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,440 So it's based on us being courageous and maybe calling out 250 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,280 some behaviour and understanding that and letting that go. 251 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,240 It's about building trust, which is again all about 252 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,920 relationships. It's about seeing people, so 253 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,280 recognition, so not only seeing those that we serve, but also 254 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,000 recognising the value of our peers, recognising the value of 255 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,040 our teams, our leaders, our managers to create a more 256 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,200 positive culture. And it's also about knowledge, 257 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,320 so not only accessing knowledge in a digestible way from the 258 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,240 academic community, but also harvesting knowledge from other 259 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:02,920 areas of criminal justice and mainly for us, lived experience. 260 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,160 So we've just created some lived experience standards around how 261 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,840 we can fully engage and integrate the voice of those in 262 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,680 contact with probation and prisons and criminal justice 263 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,720 into reform and into the change that we seek. 264 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:18,800 For me, that's really, really important. 265 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,800 So they're the key commitments of of Justice 2.0. 266 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,000 And if people see good practise, we want people to tag that as 267 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,240 Justice 2.0. If we see harmful practise, we 268 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,600 want that to be associated with Justice 1.0 because for me, 269 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,080 changing culture is about public awareness. 270 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,680 And I think for us it's about how do we get that public 271 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:38,920 awareness out there. So that's our campaign. 272 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,600 And under that we do culture work in approved premises with 273 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,400 probation and in prisons. And we do that not only in 274 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,280 England, but we do that globally. 275 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,160 So we do that in Europe, in Asia, Middle East, doing 276 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:53,600 potentially some work in America. 277 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,920 So again, it's about how do we connect, create communities. 278 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,400 So we're creating something called the Champions Community 279 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,400 and the Growth Alliance. That's about passionate people 280 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,840 that want to make a difference. How we can connect them up to 281 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,680 help them stay positive, hopeful, understand and learn to 282 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:13,120 really create a learning culture for people that are working as 283 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,800 practitioners within criminal justice. 284 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,280 And then finally, our last element is our growth series, 285 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,040 SO7 online courses, which are really bite sized. 286 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,040 They're about building relationships. 287 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,200 All of the stuff around therapeutic alliances is in 288 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,360 there and they're about reflective practise and 289 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,160 professional skills. How we motivate, how we engage, 290 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:32,840 but also how do we change culture? 291 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,360 So giving staff really practical advice from international input 292 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,760 around how do we build culture change. 293 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,440 So each course about 10 hours, not big courses, superl 294 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,600 accessible, informed by research, but also with lots of 295 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:48,800 lived experience in there as well. 296 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,320 So we launched that last week. Impressive stuff. 297 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,600 Great, thank you. I'm just interested in your 298 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,400 views, Sarah said. We interviewed someone from the 299 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,560 parole and board and talking about how prisoners evidence 300 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,000 that they've desisted or changed in order that they will be 301 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,480 released at their parole board hearing. 302 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,640 But I just wondered, you do work in prisons, what's your view 303 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,560 about rehabilitation in prison? Or what are tips for probation 304 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,720 officers to help someone that they're working with to change? 305 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,640 I think this is a great question. 306 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,640 I think there's something for me about understanding how our 307 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,200 environment shapes people and understanding the responsibility 308 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,480 that we as as individuals, but also as a system and as 309 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,960 organisations manage that. I mean, I go into some of the 310 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,040 worst prisons, so I guess I have that. 311 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:39,200 I also go into some of the best ones. 312 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,040 So that's that's a nice balance, but I think the ones that are 313 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,760 really effective. So Norway being a classic 314 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,400 example of that, but also high bank wood in Northern Ireland, 315 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,600 for example, what you see is much better outcomes. 316 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:58,000 And that is when we think about culture and when we think about 317 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,400 that, it's about OK, how culture is created. 318 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,080 It's created by our staff, it's created by our leaders. 319 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:04,760 It's also created by the people in prison. 320 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,280 So it's, it's Co created and it's socially constructed. 321 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,360 And I think we need to take some responsibility for that. 322 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,400 Like a lot of the time it's about like you say, what 323 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,360 evidence have you got to have demonstrated that you have 324 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,880 rehabilitated classic Shawshank Redemption, right? 325 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,040 It's like, what have you done as an individual without fully 326 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,080 appreciating that essentially most, you know, we've got 327 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,040 significant amount of people in prison who have come from 328 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,600 poverty. We've got significantly more 329 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,800 people from minority backgrounds than our white counterparts that 330 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,760 are in prison because of systemic racism. 331 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,840 That has been documented significantly across all parts 332 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,920 of our system. We've got people, 70% now are 333 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,160 neuro diverse. I mean, let's just sit on that. 334 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,800 Three or four people in prison have got neuro diversity. 8 out 335 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,760 of 10 have got mental health issues. 336 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,000 I think there's just something about we've got a responsibility 337 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:03,000 to serve individuals much better then to hold all of the 338 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,640 responsibility on those individuals. 339 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,839 I appreciate they they have responsibility because they've 340 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,640 behaved in ways that have led them to prison. 341 00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:12,400 But I think we also have to have a real think about what are our 342 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,400 systems doing to people and the level of harm that they are 343 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,040 creating. Because I support people from 344 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,880 prison. Lifelong membership. 345 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,800 That's what we do focus on belonging, tertiary desistance. 346 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,800 So how do we support people with very much this idea that they 347 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,880 are part of our growth family? And what is heartbreaking to see 348 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,800 is that they have been historically let down by 349 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:39,440 families, by institutions like education, the care system, and 350 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,200 then prisons. And we need to acknowledge that, 351 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,160 I think, in order to to deal with it. 352 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,680 So I think rehabilitation is possible in prison, but only in 353 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,680 environments that enable people to feel psychologically safe to 354 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:53,360 talk about what they really need to talk about. 355 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,000 And if you don't feel safe, it's that isn't going to happen. 356 00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:59,440 And if your staff don't feel safe, they're not going to have 357 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,560 those conversations. So culture for me is everything. 358 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:04,640 Thank you for that. I think it's really interesting 359 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,480 isn't it, Because often the mainstream media view is much 360 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,400 more about tough on crime punishment. 361 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,440 When we did the pro interview it was about public protection. 362 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,360 So really considering protecting the public over actually helping 363 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:19,840 someone change and actually I suppose recognising that if 364 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,600 someone is help change, actually that does protect the public. 365 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,160 So it's those pressures on a probation officer, isn't it, 366 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,160 about balancing those two things? 367 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,000 But have you got any tips for a trainee probation officers about 368 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,280 how they balance that difficult dual role, I think. 369 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:38,200 For me, there's something about it's the this or this, it's easy 370 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,920 or it's tough. Yeah, it's public protection or 371 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,840 it's rehabilitation. I think recent publications that 372 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,600 have come out have basically said punitive measures alone do 373 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,680 not help. You know, they do not. 374 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,240 They make people worse essentially. 375 00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:54,400 So that's what we historically know and the research tells us 376 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,920 that and practise tells us that. So we know that. 377 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,680 What we do know is investing in rehabilitation protects the 378 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,640 public. Like you say, investing in 379 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,360 rehabilitation also supports people to be good neighbours, 380 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,360 which is exactly what we want. So I think we look at all these 381 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,680 philosophies of punishment, whether it's retribution, 382 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,400 restoration, rehabilitation, whatever it may be, we look at 383 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,560 all the different forms and rehabilitation gives us the best 384 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,200 outcomes. The best, the best approach is 385 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,120 rehabilitation and it will give you everything. 386 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,240 It will help you protect the public, it will help justice be 387 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,880 served. It will help restore balance. 388 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,120 It will, it will do all of the things that we wanted to do and 389 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,680 it is tough to rehabilitate. You know, the gentleman I spoke 390 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,800 to this just literally before this podcast recording, he's not 391 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,680 having an easy time of it right now. 392 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,840 He's come out of prison. He hasn't never been on the 393 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,280 Internet. He hasn't got a house in five 394 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,640 weeks time potentially going to be recalled back to prison. 395 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,640 He hasn't got employment and he has to everyday talk to every 396 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,120 employer and tell him that he's got a life sentence and he's on 397 00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:00,240 a life licence. That is not easy. 398 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,440 But he's choosing rehabilitation every day and he's showing up 399 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,000 every day. And what I find really difficult 400 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,600 is, and This is why we have to change the public opinion, Is 401 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,400 this real assumption that rehabilitation is easy? 402 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,880 Well, as we know, if we asked, is addiction easy to recover 403 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,800 from? Is when you break a leg, is it 404 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,760 easy to walk? I mean, all of that is really 405 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,960 hard, right? So I don't understand why we 406 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,960 suddenly come along to this idea and this notion that 407 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,720 rehabilitation is soft and for Care Bears and Weak disagree 408 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,240 wholeheartedly. If we talk to anyone who's 409 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,600 currently in a rehab, talk to anyone who's in a prison, if we 410 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,440 talk to anyone who's going through a genuine journey for 411 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,320 desistance, easy is not a word that is in their vocabulary 412 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,520 right now. We've got serious problems in 413 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,920 prison in terms of even just the conditions and the 414 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,040 infrastructure that leaders are having to navigate. 415 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:52,200 None of it is easy. And it's not easy for staff. 416 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,960 It's not easy for probation. But I think appreciating how 417 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,360 tough it is, it's much tougher to rehabilitate than to go back 418 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:00,800 to crime. I've heard that lots. 419 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,600 We encourage our training probation officers to think 420 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,640 about the ethics and the morals of their decision making. 421 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,240 Obviously balancing risk and and considering rehabilitation and 422 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,160 think about the individual that they're working with. 423 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,600 I think the other thing as well, I mean just off the back of that 424 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,720 is two things. Firstly, in Norway they have 425 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,400 something called the bricks models, which basically their 426 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,200 assessment is about need. So what someone needs and 427 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,760 resource, So what resources we have to fit that need. 428 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,280 They don't focus on risk and there are some jurisdictions out 429 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,360 there that don't talk about risk at all. 430 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,560 And I just think we've got to really think about that because 431 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,920 our recent research with Steve Farrell and Jake Phillips and 432 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,840 and our our wonderful group of researchers with lived 433 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,680 experience and Nita Dockley around hope and probation. 434 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,760 What we found is not only did practitioners and former 435 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:58,480 practitioners not have hope, but nor did those that we 436 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,320 interviewed that were on probation or had been on 437 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,960 probation said that don't go to probation to get hope. 438 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,120 We get hope from our families. We get hope maybe from from us 439 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:08,000 as an organisation, whatever it may be. 440 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,720 We do not get hope from probation. 441 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,240 And that really saddens me because I think the three of us 442 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,480 know that's the reason you're going to work to give people 443 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,400 hope. That's what you do. 444 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,440 And the fact that not only are we not feeling that people 445 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:23,960 aren't feeling that as practitioners, but they're not 446 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,360 able to serve that to those that we serve, he's really, really 447 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:28,640 worrying. It's really sad. 448 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,200 It's really sad that we've got to that stage. 449 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,120 And that's not to say that's why we're doing justice 2.0 and 450 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:34,960 we're creating networks to build hope. 451 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,680 That's why we're doing it because people deserve to feel 452 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,080 hopeful about their lives. The the research also 453 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,000 highlighted that so many people said, I wish we could return to 454 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,320 a bit more social work kind of focus, relational focus. 455 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:48,800 That's where we get our energy from. 456 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,520 That's where we see progress. That's where we see investment. 457 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,040 So the promise of risk management I think is an 458 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,320 illusion. I just think if you manage need, 459 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600 risk will sort itself out. If we give people the right 460 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,240 support with addiction and debt management because that's what 461 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,600 they need, and relational skills because that's what they need, 462 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,680 risk sorts itself out. We don't need to be worrying 463 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,640 about risk as much as we do. So all the time we restrict and 464 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,680 oppress people. I know I'm like, you restrict 465 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,560 and oppress me, I'm going to kick off. 466 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,440 I'm going to kick off. I'm not going to comply. 467 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,520 It's my life. And so when we're having, for 468 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,320 example, mapping meetings without the person in the room 469 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,080 and we're making decisions on their behalf and controlling 470 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,280 them more and more and more, not sure why we thought that was a 471 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,000 good idea. I appreciate they don't. 472 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,560 There's some things they don't need to know about because of 473 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,240 victims suspectives. I get that, but not including an 474 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,840 individual in their own rehabilitation makes no logical 475 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,160 sense. So including individuals in 476 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,360 their life and giving them responsibility, that's, that's 477 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,520 got to be the right way. Giving them that agency is 478 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,920 really important. I've recently read the Hope and 479 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:01,800 Probation report and I think it's really important to 480 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,000 recognise that there are practitioners, there are 481 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,200 training probation officers, there are people that really do 482 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,480 have that hope and really do work to support people and to 483 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,160 put that in place. Yeah, yeah. 484 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,920 It wasn't necessarily evident in the people you spoke to, but I 485 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,440 think it's, you know, there's a lot of people that are doing 486 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,440 that, working hard. Here in spite of, that's it, 487 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,880 isn't it? They're doing that in spite of, 488 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,360 and even the people that we spoke with, they really wanted 489 00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:28,360 hope. They really, and they were, they 490 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,280 were almost still hopeful because they were still in it 491 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,200 and they were still working hard and they're like, it's going to 492 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:34,600 change and it's going to be all right. 493 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,000 So absolutely, I still am so admired by whether it's 494 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,120 probation or prison staff rocking up every day and still 495 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,360 having hopeful conversations. And for me, there's something 496 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,560 about message to the students. Really think about how do you 497 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,040 refuel self compassion well-being, how do you show up 498 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,480 everyday? And having a plan, a really 499 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,960 clear plan on how you do that, because the work is really tough 500 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,840 and what we hear and see and feel, it can be really hard. 501 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,000 And we need to have a plan in place so that we can run, run 502 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,680 the distance. Because it's not Sprint, is it? 503 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,840 It's a marathon. But like you say, it's so 504 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,640 admirable that you've still got incredible staff that do an 505 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,680 amazing job every day. And we found that in our 506 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,840 thematic with HMIP where we interviewed people around mental 507 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,920 health and the impact criminal justice has on their mental 508 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,960 health, they talked about relationships. 509 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,440 My probation officers got my back, they support me, they call 510 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,960 me out on my behaviour, but they are absolutely there for me. 511 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,440 And that's the stuff that makes my mental health much, much 512 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,520 better. We found that in the mental 513 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,280 health thematic, the electronic monitoring thematic 514 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,280 relationships are throughout it, unsurprisingly. 515 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:47,120 And don't underestimate that individual probation officer. 516 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,840 People still say it was that individual that helped me change 517 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,440 my life. And that's from 10 years on. 518 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,960 That's from 20 years on. So we have to decide what kind 519 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,520 of influence we want to have on people. 520 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,320 And I think having a positive influence is a much better 521 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,680 choice. I think it's really great that 522 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,560 you have people with lived experience because like you say, 523 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,920 change is difficult. But also I know when I was 524 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,280 managing a team of probation officers, sometimes they would 525 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,800 lose a bit of hope thinking I've worked with this person. 526 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,520 And so actually I think to inspire individuals that change 527 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,080 is possible or that they can achieve positive outcomes 528 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,480 because we can all lose a bit of hope, can't we? 529 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,040 And actually then when you listen to someone that's saying 530 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,320 I have managed to desist from crime, it is actually really 531 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,920 inspiring. And we probably all need to hear 532 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,320 that sometimes when it's tough or someone saying my probation 533 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,320 officer was helpful. If you don't always feel it. 534 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,360 And have you got any other tips to or why that's important to 535 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,880 involve a living? Experience in terms of that, 536 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,440 it's so important. I mean, I appreciate it's a 537 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,680 prison example, but in a high security estate, you never see 538 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,200 what happens, right? So you meet people for maybe 15 539 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,640 years when they're doing their first part of their sentence and 540 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,880 you never know unless they come back 20 years later if they've 541 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:01,880 re offended once they got through the system and then back 542 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,800 in again. But you never know those 543 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,560 stories. You know, the beauty of 544 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,120 probation, I think is that we see, we see growth, don't we? 545 00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:13,280 And, and if you're local to, I always remember in Portsmouth, 546 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,000 you'd walk down the street and you'd meet someone that you just 547 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,920 had groups with or someone that you knew and they were with 548 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,320 their family and you got to see them. 549 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,440 And they were really proud to say, this is my wife and this is 550 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,200 my kids. And, and you get to experience 551 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,760 all of that. And I think when I worked in 552 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,840 prisons, I then thought you don't get any of the success 553 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,480 stories. You don't hear any of that. 554 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,160 Why would you have hope if you know that all these people, they 555 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,600 just keep on coming. So for me, that experience is so 556 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,400 important in terms of getting that voice heard and to get 557 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,600 those hopeful stories out there is also about talking about the 558 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,960 difficulties of the system. And I think we've got to do that 559 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,360 really ethically and responsibly in the sense of not triggering 560 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,960 and re traumatising people. That in some senses this culture 561 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,440 has emerged where you're kind of rolling people out and saying, 562 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,840 right, tell us about your lived experience of being in a gang 563 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,320 and seeing your best friend die. And that's a real example of 564 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,240 someone saying that to a group of funders and, and look at what 565 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,120 this individual and then talk about how my organisation helped 566 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:13,480 you. I think there's something about 567 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,680 how we can really support our lived experience community 568 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,400 because they have got so much, they have got legitimacy that I 569 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,960 will never have because they've been there and they've done it. 570 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,320 And I feel that there is a little bit of a rub there 571 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,200 sometimes in terms of processes. I think you've got this idea 572 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,320 that lived experience is really great for the success story. 573 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,440 And we'll keep them in that box there. 574 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,560 But if we want them to be part of strategic policy making or 575 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,600 reform, or if we want them to train leaders, suddenly it all 576 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,960 gets a bit like, well, no, we kind of just want to keep them 577 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:47,720 here. You know, they're really good at 578 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,320 telling a good story. But I think the, the potential 579 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,640 of the lived experience community and we have got a, a 580 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,320 global community of wonderful human beings that have got a lot 581 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,360 to say and they bring with it something really, really 582 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:01,920 special. And I think just acknowledging 583 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,440 that maybe we can't offer that bit because we haven't stepped 584 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,880 in the shoes of people. That's all right. 585 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,520 We've stepped in the shoes of probation officers. 586 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,120 So that's OK. So I think not seeing them as a 587 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,400 threat, but seeing them as an absolute asset and integrating 588 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,920 them and welcoming them into our the cause and and the 589 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,560 organisation, I think so a win, an absolute win. 590 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,400 So imagine you've got a magic wand and you've got the power to 591 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,840 implement one major change for probation or the wider criminal 592 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,680 justice system. What would it be? 593 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,320 Just be culture change. But I think there's something 594 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,560 about culture change in the sense of the worth of it. 595 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,880 It's not, you know, we haven't got enough money to invest in 596 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,840 culture change. That's the narrative that we get 597 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,320 really regularly. And yet there is so much money 598 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:51,480 being invested into misconduct, grievances, corruption, self 599 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,560 harm in prison, suicide in prison. 600 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,160 And you think if you invested in culture, then a lot of this 601 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,960 stuff would sort you out? I mean, I'm not saying it would 602 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,120 all sort out, but a lot of it would really, really help. 603 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,480 So we talk about the miracle question. 604 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,040 If you woke up today and your prison was purely rehabilitation 605 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,920 focused and growth orientated, what would it look like, feel 606 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,520 like? What would people be doing? 607 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,000 I think there's something for me about if I could wave a magic 608 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,360 wand, it would almost be about to do that. 609 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,640 Just say you wake up and you walk into a probation office and 610 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,680 you feel like you belong as a team. 611 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,880 All of that culture is switched. Everything's turned on its head. 612 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,880 So that's where I would be. Thank you for that. 613 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,520 Also, I'm interested in some of the other work you've done about 614 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,280 the importance of green and blue spaces and how that helps with 615 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,480 changing behaviour and growth. Yeah, absolutely. 616 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,120 So this was really inspired by the Norwegian work, but we 617 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,840 established something called the Principles of Growth. 618 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:53,280 So I went into 3 prisons in Norway and looked at what were 619 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,200 the things that promoted growth, not only for the staff but also 620 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,360 for those that that lived there. And we created the Principles of 621 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,360 Growth. So that included relationships, 622 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,000 of course. It included finding purpose and 623 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,800 meaning, having good coping strategies, learning new things, 624 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,720 investing in people. So there were lots of principles 625 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,560 and I've written lots about it. So if you're interested then 626 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,400 please either contact me or have a look. 627 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,240 But one of the key principles was connecting to nature and 628 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,200 looking at it's not necessarily just the relationships that we 629 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,080 hold with humans, but also the relationships we hold with 630 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,400 potentially animals in our environment more broadly. 631 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,480 And part of that is the therapeutic and the restorative 632 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:37,160 effect of green spaces. So forests, woods, plants and 633 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,160 blue spaces, which is essentially water. 634 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,400 So loads of academic literature within the geography community 635 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,680 that looks very much about environment, how the environment 636 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,280 can actually heal us, how it can support us. 637 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,280 And we kind of know this intuitively, right? 638 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,680 Like I think about COVID and us being able to go for a walk that 639 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,440 was massive, wasn't it? In terms of walking in the woods 640 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,680 or walking by the sea or that therapeutic kind of notion that 641 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,120 engaging with nature and hearing nature and being mindful in 642 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,280 nature is really important. So loads of literature about it, 643 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,200 but I think what was really fascinating from a research 644 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,240 point of view is that this real connection with animals and for 645 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,600 anyone who's got pets, I guess would maybe resonate with, but 646 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,400 this idea that they don't judge, they don't talk back. 647 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,240 They do bark, of course. But you know, a lot of the time 648 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,480 it's that pure acceptance and that love and that kind of 649 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,920 unconditional love that that people get an awful lot from 650 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,840 their pets or from animals more broadly. 651 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:39,080 So how we connect with not only ourselves and our relationship 652 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,280 with our self, self compassion, how we connect with others, how 653 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,800 we connect with us, those we serve and how we connect with a 654 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,840 bigger environment. If all that lines up, that is 655 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,360 really, really powerful. So a lot of the time within our 656 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,520 training, we talk a lot about, OK, so let's talk about how your 657 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,840 relationship with yourself. Is that lined up? 658 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,480 Are you living the values that you that you that matter to you? 659 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,480 And when you're not living those values, that's we see moral 660 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,960 injury. That's what we see along the 661 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,520 way, because people are really struggling with that. 662 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,880 So we talk about that. We then layer that up with let's 663 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,680 talk about the relationships that you serve. 664 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,240 And then let's talk about our relationship with the world 665 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,680 around us and really getting practitioners to think about, 666 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,520 right, what do I need to do on a daily basis to line these things 667 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,440 up? Because all the time you do 668 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,600 that, you're working in your element, you have the most 669 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,640 energy, you're able to thrive as much as possible. 670 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,040 The environment around us is really important. 671 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,680 And sometimes we can be in really oppressive environments, 672 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,800 IE prison, which are red in nature, and we can be in 673 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,480 environments that are really green, that are really conducive 674 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,400 to our growth. So even as a mapping exercise, 675 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,880 you know, we've done it within offices, but we've also done it 676 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,480 within prisons where you go round an environment, like a 677 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,200 physical environment and say, right, OK, where is growth here? 678 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,440 You know, when people are playing, I don't know, chess at 679 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,520 the table, that's when we can see people learning and growing. 680 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,560 Where are the red spaces? So where is there danger spots 681 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,600 or, you know, dark alleys or dark stairwells or spaces that 682 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,480 don't inspire? How can we make that more 683 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,120 inspirational? So we do kind of audit of the 684 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,400 environment just to try and line it all up because the minute it 685 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,679 lines up then people start feeling a bit better is what 686 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:20,280 we've learnt. Yeah, thank you. 687 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,679 You've touched a bit already about the importance of 688 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,880 reflective practise, but a key part of their probation officer 689 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,960 training is reflecting on your practise. 690 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,199 I just wondered your thoughts on reflective practise and any tips 691 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,239 Sarah. Do it relentlessly, make it a 692 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,440 habit. I think sometimes the culture is 693 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,360 when a manager sets up a reflective practise session we 694 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,400 attend and that's reflective practise that isn't reflective 695 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,480 practise, reflective practises, the littlest things, you know, 696 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,280 at the end of every day, just reflecting on, OK, what do I 697 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,520 need to stop doing, stop doing, continue doing. 698 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,200 It's about think, reflecting on how we feel when we walk into 699 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,800 the office every morning because that's going to impact on our 700 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,080 relationships and how we speak to people and what's going on. 701 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,560 Actively asking people for feedback so we can reflect and 702 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,480 learn is really important. But invariably it's based in 703 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,520 workshops and activities that kind of bolted on to the 704 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,040 everyday, which is just reactive and relentless. 705 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,240 And it's all about fast thinking and I think there's no balance 706 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:23,840 in that. So it's so invaluable in terms 707 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,000 of that self-awareness piece. But in order to achieve that, 708 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,040 you have to practise, have a habit of reflection and you have 709 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,160 to do that relentlessly and without compromise. 710 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,800 So do it as a meeting. That's what you know, that's 711 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,040 what we do as a team. We do it as a meeting or you 712 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,560 know, a meeting to ourselves sometimes. 713 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,920 So I schedule in a meeting at the end of the day where I'm 714 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,280 just like, well, it's just reflect on the day, what have I 715 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,120 learnt? What am I going to do tomorrow 716 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,400 differently? It's all about holding yourself 717 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,800 to account, taking responsibility if you're 718 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,960 learning, because no one's going to come and do it for you. 719 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,800 That's a great tip, isn't it? Probation officers are obviously 720 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,800 really busy, but trying to block out five minutes, even if that's 721 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,080 all we've got at the end of the day to. 722 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,240 Yeah, that's great. Thanks, Sarah. 723 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,520 So you've mentioned lots of your publications already, and we 724 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,920 refer to them throughout the Pequip training that we deliver, 725 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,000 but what key readings or articles would you recommend our 726 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,200 listeners to read? We'll be putting these in the 727 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,880 show notes of the episode. It's do you know what? 728 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,880 It's that when I got the questions, it was the hardest 729 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,440 one. I think it was the hardest one 730 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,360 to answer because I don't know if people read books anymore. 731 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,360 I did think about fundamental books that have really kind of 732 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,560 changed my life and maybe ever thought it way too much, but 733 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,960 there are loads of really good resources out there. 734 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,680 There's a book that that I'm lucky to have a chapter in 735 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,360 around transforming environments and rehabilitations. 736 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,720 If you want to do the kind of academic book thing, then that 737 00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:52,480 would be it's an edited book by Adrian Needs that's just 738 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,960 wonderful. But for me, there's something 739 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,200 about I read Carl Rogers on Becoming a Person, which was all 740 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,840 about humanistic psychology, and I read that literally. 741 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,440 I went on holiday. It's about like a therapy in 742 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,360 creating conditions of relational practise essentially, 743 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,920 but not within criminology. But it was just really eye 744 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,640 opening to I think find who inspires you and read their 745 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,640 stuff, whether that's a blog, a podcast. 746 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,400 Shabnaroo has done loads of stuff. 747 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,240 Go and see him talk, find someone who links to your values 748 00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:29,080 and do it that way. When I became a teacher at uni 749 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,040 and did the fellowship, we had a teacher there who who trained us 750 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,480 to to do that. And there's a book called 751 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,440 Tuesdays with Maury when she said every teacher needs to read 752 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,480 this. I mean, again, it's just a book 753 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:47,120 that is about values and about regrets and about life more 754 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,160 broadly. So I don't know about a 755 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,280 particular book, but they're books that have shaped me, have 756 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,960 been those two books. And I think there's just 757 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,440 something about seeking out the people that you really resonate 758 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,480 with and the the reading that's really accessible for you and 759 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,680 just going with that and do and, and, and learning in lots of 760 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,960 different ways, you know, whether that is podcasts or book 761 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,600 chapters, whatever that may be. But yeah, that would be my 762 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,360 advice. Thank you for that very full 763 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:16,840 response. A lot of our guests jump 764 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,960 straight to recommending their own publications. 765 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,960 Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't say that. I just say find your, find your 766 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,200 tribe, find find the people. Loads of stuff coming out about 767 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,320 lived experience at the moment. The value of with that convic 768 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,040 criminology, if you're interested in that. 769 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,520 There's loads of really, really good lyrical criminology was an 770 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,800 article that completely changed the way I thought about auto 771 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,160 ethnographies. Absolutely beautifully written. 772 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,760 So I think there's moments of of knowledge that you just think is 773 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,520 are just wonderful. I think it's just finding your 774 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,960 own voice and finding your own values and and starting there. 775 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:50,880 Thank. You so much. 776 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,040 Is there anything that you wanted to share that we haven't 777 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,880 given the opportunity to talk about, Sarah? 778 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,240 I think there's just something, the last thing I would say, and 779 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:02,600 I did a talk to some probation leaders a few months ago and 780 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,000 people talked about I'm only one and there's only me. 781 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,120 How could I possibly change things? 782 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,800 And I would just say don't underestimate the power of you, 783 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,440 whether that's in practise, if you're working with those that 784 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,280 we serve, or whether that's around reform, if you want to 785 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,800 get involved in Justice 2.0 But don't underestimate the 786 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,280 influence, good or bad, that that people have on other 787 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,200 people. I think the only other thing is 788 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,400 that invest some time in really understanding what are the 789 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,920 things that really fire you and energise you and what do you 790 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,960 want to say within this craft of probation? 791 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,880 Because that's the stuff that's really meaningful. 792 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,280 And invariably people leave probation because they lose that 793 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,520 sense of meaning. So it's something that's worth 794 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,280 investing in because it is so rewarding to see people grow 795 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,320 like there's nothing like it, nothing like it. 796 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,160 So just wish everyone the best really. 797 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,800 Thank you very much, Sarah. Thanks for listening to 798 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,640 Probation Perspectives Insights into community justice. 799 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,760 We hope our conversation with Doctor Sarah Lewis gave you 800 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,600 fresh insights into the power of therapeutic relationships and 801 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,800 probation work. From relational practise to the 802 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,240 vision behind Justice 2.0, we hope you came away with new 803 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,600 ideas to reflect on and take into your own work, whatever 804 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,720 your role is in the system. If you found this episode 805 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:20,640 helpful, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your 806 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,480 colleagues or fellow learners. We'd love to hear your thoughts 807 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,680 or suggestions for future topics and guests. 808 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,000 A huge thank you to Doctor Sarah Lewis for sharing her time, 809 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,320 wisdom and passion, and to everyone who helps make this 810 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:33,440 podcast. Possible. 811 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,840 We'll be back soon with more conversations that shine a light 812 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,640 on the practise, purpose and people behind probation and 813 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,520 community justice. Until next time, take care.