Welcome to Probation Perspectives insights into
Community Justice, the podcast where we dive into the world of
probation, rehabilitation and community justice.
Each episode we explore the themes, challenges and skills
that underpin effective probation practise.
Whether you're just starting out on the P quip, have years of
experience in the field, or are simply curious about the
criminal justice system, this podcast is your space for
practical insight, expert perspectives, and meaningful
conversations. In today's episode, we're joined
by Doctor Sarah Lewis, founder of Penal Reform Solutions and a
leading voice in reform and growth in the criminal justice
system. Investing in rehabilitation will
help you protect the public, supports people to be good
neighbours, which is exactly what we want.
We talked to Sarah about the importance of relationships and
probation, the challenges of maintaining hope and human
connection, and her new initiative, Justice 2.0 People.
Still say it was that individual probation officer that helped me
change my life and that's from 20 years on.
It's a powerful conversation that reminds us of the human
side of justice, work, and the importance of creating spaces
where people can thrive. Let's get into our conversation
with Sarah. So welcome, Sarah, it's really
great to have you with us here on the podcast.
Thank you for joining us. So you're the director of Penal
Reform Solutions. So we're just interested for our
listeners, if you could tell us a bit about your journey, how
you've got here. Yeah.
So my journey within probation started 21 years ago.
So I worked as a probation service officer in a prison, HP
Winchester and then moved out into the community.
I worked in offender rehabilitation as they called
it, but programmes essentially as a facilitator.
I did that for about 8 years and then had the pleasure of joining
the then ICJS, which was all about training probation
officers. And I did that for a time, moved
over to undergraduate to teach penology and then with that got
a bit of a passion for prisons. So I had the amazing opportunity
to go to Norway where I was really inspired around creating
kind of rehabilitative environments and then threw that
all in, essentially set up on my own.
So set up in Reform Solutions and went back into prisons and
support probation now with culture change.
So we've been doing that for about 10 years now.
So we've got a small team, we've got people with lived experience
of probation and prison. We've got former probation
officers, former prison officers, and we're a small
group of magical people that care deeply about changing
culture. So I'm the director of Penal
Form Solutions, but also the director of Grow Transform
Belong, which is a community interest company.
Great. Thank you.
So what made you kind of want to join probation in the 1st place?
What kind of led you to that, Sarah?
Yeah, I've always loved working with people and I was working in
a residential hostel of time for young people and I was also
studying forensic psychology at University of Portsmouth, do my
masters at the time, so I was really keen to get involved with
criminal justice. I did my dissertation in HMP
Holloway and a job came up in the local prison and with that
just thought the values of probation at the time was very
much focused on working with people, supporting
rehabilitation, and that was very much my kind of key values.
So I went into prison thinking it was going to be an
environment that was conducive to that, but learned very
quickly it wasn't. Hence the reform agenda, I
guess. In the P quip training, we refer
to your research regarding the importance of the therapeutic
alliance. It's a central part of the first
level 6 module they study. Can you tell us a bit more about
your research into the therapeutic alliance and some
key aspects of that? Yeah, it started when I was
doing my professional doctorate and I was really keen to
understand how can we firstly develop therapeutic
relationships within correctional setting in light of
the power dynamics and how we can deepen those relationships
and magnify the the impact of our practise.
But also I think there was just something for me about there
being a real gap in knowledge around how we mend things.
So when relationships go really are really tough or we've got to
make a decision like a recall or we've got to challenge an
individual and maybe a rupture takes place, how do we mend that
and how can that be done really effectively?
So that's really kind of sparked my interest.
But I think alongside that I was working in probation at the time
and working I guess within the therapeutic environment, within
programmes. And for me there was something
about Co production. So I worked really closely with
those that were in contact with probation and it was about how
can we Co create the knowledge around this.
So I was very keen to get those involved in probation, helping
with the design of it, of my research and understanding what
those relationships feel like and the impact of those
relationships, not only when they go well and the impact that
has on people and change, but also when things go bad, the
impact that has on people. So so that's how I came about
focusing on therapeutic relationships.
Thank you. And could you identify what the
key points are that you've identified in the early
research, but maybe you've developed your understanding of
it since then, So from the point of view of the probation
officer, but also from the personal probation?
For me, there's key elements of relationships.
So I think there's firstly something about having a shared
goal. So really acknowledging that not
only do we share the goal of those that we are working with
in terms of supporting their desistants, we both ideally want
that people want to live a peaceful, happy life and ideally
we want them to feel that. So I think there's something
firstly about where we orientate ourselves so very much being on
the on their side and saying we are supporting you and helping
you navigate this space in terms of supporting your assistance, I
guess. So having that shared goal is
really important. And then really clarifying what
are the tasks needed in order to achieve that and how we can
support people, not in the sense of them being dependent on us,
but very much giving them the tools and giving them the
responsibility of doing those tasks that are going to support
their assistance. So once they're kind of
established, it's also about seeing the individual.
I think that's what I really learnt within the Norwegian
work. They talk a lot about we have to
see people and when I worked in probation we very much threw the
words offender and criminal around.
And it was very much this case that they were objects that
needed managing and and risks that needed managing.
So things like self disclosure you just wouldn't do, you
wouldn't hug someone on probation.
That would definitely be not acceptable.
I think when I went to Norway and experienced securely growth
focused environment, people talked in really different ways
about those that were on probation or those in contact
with the with the criminal justice system more broadly.
And very much focused on them as people.
And the need to see people and see their strengths and see
their assets and see what they can do and contribute, but also
see them as human beings rather than as broken or weak or have
deficits of some kind. So I completely changed my
perspective, I think from my Norwegian work, and part of the
therapeutic alliance is all about how do we understand
people's needs. So what do we need to understand
in terms of around neurodiversity or how they learn
or what their goals are or anything around their needs
around addiction or journeys of recovery, whatever that may be.
The things that matter to them and seeing them as an individual
and spending time to do that will absolutely support that
change process, but will really help that practitioner evolve
and grow. And that's what it's all about.
It's about that Co evolution. So therapeutic alliance is very
much about those key elements and the fundamental part is
about our bond, how we connect with people and how close we get
to people. So we talk very much about these
red and green spaces within the therapeutic alliance that
sometimes you can be really far away and really distant where
you see individuals as objects or risks to be managed and they
essentially would those in in contact with you are they're
going to therefore going to respond in a similar way.
They're going to see you as a probation officer in authority,
not understand that you as an individual, not maybe show you
compassion, not want to build, build relationships with you.
So that relationship is really important to recognise where are
we standing? Are we distant?
Are we far away from an individual?
Are we unavailable to an individual?
Because if we are, they won't trust us.
Are we in this green space which is professional and open and
curious and motivating and engaging?
Or are we too close to that individual?
Are we sharing too much with them?
Are we getting too emotionally involved with people?
Sometimes, you know, we hear some really tough stuff and
sometimes we can take that home with us and overthink it and to
go over and above and that's absolutely wonderful.
But it's also sometimes the compromise of our own
well-being. So my model of kind of dynamic
relationships was all about us understanding where are we
standing? Have we established a shared
goal? Have we established a shared
task? And do we see people and do we
see the needs that they have? And that's the ingredients for
me of the therapeutic alliance. Thank you.
There's some really key points there and I think some important
reflective points for all probation officers, but
certainly those on the P Quip programme.
And you referred already to when people experience those
roadblocks or ruptures in their relationships with people
they're working with. Have you got any key advice
about those experiences? Yeah, that's just something for
me about investing in your own self-awareness about how you
talk to people. I think we are in a culture that
can be quite oppressive and can be quite fearful.
We're worried about making mistakes, we're worried about
serious further offences, we're worried about getting into
trouble or not doing things right.
And yet we're also in a very pressurised environment where
we've got to get things done and sometimes don't leave the
quality of of what we've got. So I think appreciating you that
that you're in a culture that is not necessarily conducive to
relationship building and spending the time investing in
that I think is important. And therefore knowing what
impact that culture has on you. Because it can be the tone that
you use, it can be the way in which you communicate, it can be
your non verbals, it can be your emotional leakage.
So things you leak out, your eye rolls, your huffs, your coughs,
your, your tapping of your foot, whatever it may be.
So for me, there's something about to avoid ruptures, really
genuinely listening to what people are saying and spending
the time to do that, being self aware of how you present
yourself in a professional capacity.
And also, if a rupture does take place, really, really addressing
that with complete compassion and empathy.
And when ruptures take place and we make mistakes because we're
essentially human, ruptures are really good in some senses, in
the sense of they give us opportunities to grow.
If we mend them, if we don't mend them, people will
disengage, we'll disengage, we'll step back into the red.
So we have to mend ruptures. We have to get them on the
table. We have to have difficult
conversations. And trust me because I've had
lots of them along the way in my career.
When you do that and when you are brave enough to talk about
those challenges, not only do you grow and gain a greater
insight into the complexities of people, but those individuals
that you serve also really, really grow and and really
appreciate maybe an apology that you've done something wrong, but
also an explanation on why that happened and, and learning for
next time. Really.
So ruptures are fundamental to our practise and we don't talk
about it. It's too difficult sometimes to
have those conversations, but if we have them with compassion and
care, with humility, then that's an opportunity for us to grow,
which is great because that's what we want to do.
Thank you for that. Some really great information
and advice there. So Sarah, you're very busy and
you're involved in many different projects.
Would you like to tell our listeners about some of the
projects that you're involved in?
Yes. And I would love them to get
involved if they're up for it. So we are currently just this
year on the 25th of February, we launched a campaign called
Justice 2.0. So that is our essentially
global movement which focuses on how we're going to upgrade
criminal justice and how we're going to upgrade culture.
So it's very much focusing on what are the things we need to
let go of and what are the things that we that need an
upgrade and what does that upgrade look like?
And it's based on a set of commitments.
So it's based on us being courageous and maybe calling out
some behaviour and understanding that and letting that go.
It's about building trust, which is again all about
relationships. It's about seeing people, so
recognition, so not only seeing those that we serve, but also
recognising the value of our peers, recognising the value of
our teams, our leaders, our managers to create a more
positive culture. And it's also about knowledge,
so not only accessing knowledge in a digestible way from the
academic community, but also harvesting knowledge from other
areas of criminal justice and mainly for us, lived experience.
So we've just created some lived experience standards around how
we can fully engage and integrate the voice of those in
contact with probation and prisons and criminal justice
into reform and into the change that we seek.
For me, that's really, really important.
So they're the key commitments of of Justice 2.0.
And if people see good practise, we want people to tag that as
Justice 2.0. If we see harmful practise, we
want that to be associated with Justice 1.0 because for me,
changing culture is about public awareness.
And I think for us it's about how do we get that public
awareness out there. So that's our campaign.
And under that we do culture work in approved premises with
probation and in prisons. And we do that not only in
England, but we do that globally.
So we do that in Europe, in Asia, Middle East, doing
potentially some work in America.
So again, it's about how do we connect, create communities.
So we're creating something called the Champions Community
and the Growth Alliance. That's about passionate people
that want to make a difference. How we can connect them up to
help them stay positive, hopeful, understand and learn to
really create a learning culture for people that are working as
practitioners within criminal justice.
And then finally, our last element is our growth series,
SO7 online courses, which are really bite sized.
They're about building relationships.
All of the stuff around therapeutic alliances is in
there and they're about reflective practise and
professional skills. How we motivate, how we engage,
but also how do we change culture?
So giving staff really practical advice from international input
around how do we build culture change.
So each course about 10 hours, not big courses, superl
accessible, informed by research, but also with lots of
lived experience in there as well.
So we launched that last week. Impressive stuff.
Great, thank you. I'm just interested in your
views, Sarah said. We interviewed someone from the
parole and board and talking about how prisoners evidence
that they've desisted or changed in order that they will be
released at their parole board hearing.
But I just wondered, you do work in prisons, what's your view
about rehabilitation in prison? Or what are tips for probation
officers to help someone that they're working with to change?
I think this is a great question.
I think there's something for me about understanding how our
environment shapes people and understanding the responsibility
that we as as individuals, but also as a system and as
organisations manage that. I mean, I go into some of the
worst prisons, so I guess I have that.
I also go into some of the best ones.
So that's that's a nice balance, but I think the ones that are
really effective. So Norway being a classic
example of that, but also high bank wood in Northern Ireland,
for example, what you see is much better outcomes.
And that is when we think about culture and when we think about
that, it's about OK, how culture is created.
It's created by our staff, it's created by our leaders.
It's also created by the people in prison.
So it's, it's Co created and it's socially constructed.
And I think we need to take some responsibility for that.
Like a lot of the time it's about like you say, what
evidence have you got to have demonstrated that you have
rehabilitated classic Shawshank Redemption, right?
It's like, what have you done as an individual without fully
appreciating that essentially most, you know, we've got
significant amount of people in prison who have come from
poverty. We've got significantly more
people from minority backgrounds than our white counterparts that
are in prison because of systemic racism.
That has been documented significantly across all parts
of our system. We've got people, 70% now are
neuro diverse. I mean, let's just sit on that.
Three or four people in prison have got neuro diversity. 8 out
of 10 have got mental health issues.
I think there's just something about we've got a responsibility
to serve individuals much better then to hold all of the
responsibility on those individuals.
I appreciate they they have responsibility because they've
behaved in ways that have led them to prison.
But I think we also have to have a real think about what are our
systems doing to people and the level of harm that they are
creating. Because I support people from
prison. Lifelong membership.
That's what we do focus on belonging, tertiary desistance.
So how do we support people with very much this idea that they
are part of our growth family? And what is heartbreaking to see
is that they have been historically let down by
families, by institutions like education, the care system, and
then prisons. And we need to acknowledge that,
I think, in order to to deal with it.
So I think rehabilitation is possible in prison, but only in
environments that enable people to feel psychologically safe to
talk about what they really need to talk about.
And if you don't feel safe, it's that isn't going to happen.
And if your staff don't feel safe, they're not going to have
those conversations. So culture for me is everything.
Thank you for that. I think it's really interesting
isn't it, Because often the mainstream media view is much
more about tough on crime punishment.
When we did the pro interview it was about public protection.
So really considering protecting the public over actually helping
someone change and actually I suppose recognising that if
someone is help change, actually that does protect the public.
So it's those pressures on a probation officer, isn't it,
about balancing those two things?
But have you got any tips for a trainee probation officers about
how they balance that difficult dual role, I think.
For me, there's something about it's the this or this, it's easy
or it's tough. Yeah, it's public protection or
it's rehabilitation. I think recent publications that
have come out have basically said punitive measures alone do
not help. You know, they do not.
They make people worse essentially.
So that's what we historically know and the research tells us
that and practise tells us that. So we know that.
What we do know is investing in rehabilitation protects the
public. Like you say, investing in
rehabilitation also supports people to be good neighbours,
which is exactly what we want. So I think we look at all these
philosophies of punishment, whether it's retribution,
restoration, rehabilitation, whatever it may be, we look at
all the different forms and rehabilitation gives us the best
outcomes. The best, the best approach is
rehabilitation and it will give you everything.
It will help you protect the public, it will help justice be
served. It will help restore balance.
It will, it will do all of the things that we wanted to do and
it is tough to rehabilitate. You know, the gentleman I spoke
to this just literally before this podcast recording, he's not
having an easy time of it right now.
He's come out of prison. He hasn't never been on the
Internet. He hasn't got a house in five
weeks time potentially going to be recalled back to prison.
He hasn't got employment and he has to everyday talk to every
employer and tell him that he's got a life sentence and he's on
a life licence. That is not easy.
But he's choosing rehabilitation every day and he's showing up
every day. And what I find really difficult
is, and This is why we have to change the public opinion, Is
this real assumption that rehabilitation is easy?
Well, as we know, if we asked, is addiction easy to recover
from? Is when you break a leg, is it
easy to walk? I mean, all of that is really
hard, right? So I don't understand why we
suddenly come along to this idea and this notion that
rehabilitation is soft and for Care Bears and Weak disagree
wholeheartedly. If we talk to anyone who's
currently in a rehab, talk to anyone who's in a prison, if we
talk to anyone who's going through a genuine journey for
desistance, easy is not a word that is in their vocabulary
right now. We've got serious problems in
prison in terms of even just the conditions and the
infrastructure that leaders are having to navigate.
None of it is easy. And it's not easy for staff.
It's not easy for probation. But I think appreciating how
tough it is, it's much tougher to rehabilitate than to go back
to crime. I've heard that lots.
We encourage our training probation officers to think
about the ethics and the morals of their decision making.
Obviously balancing risk and and considering rehabilitation and
think about the individual that they're working with.
I think the other thing as well, I mean just off the back of that
is two things. Firstly, in Norway they have
something called the bricks models, which basically their
assessment is about need. So what someone needs and
resource, So what resources we have to fit that need.
They don't focus on risk and there are some jurisdictions out
there that don't talk about risk at all.
And I just think we've got to really think about that because
our recent research with Steve Farrell and Jake Phillips and
and our our wonderful group of researchers with lived
experience and Nita Dockley around hope and probation.
What we found is not only did practitioners and former
practitioners not have hope, but nor did those that we
interviewed that were on probation or had been on
probation said that don't go to probation to get hope.
We get hope from our families. We get hope maybe from from us
as an organisation, whatever it may be.
We do not get hope from probation.
And that really saddens me because I think the three of us
know that's the reason you're going to work to give people
hope. That's what you do.
And the fact that not only are we not feeling that people
aren't feeling that as practitioners, but they're not
able to serve that to those that we serve, he's really, really
worrying. It's really sad.
It's really sad that we've got to that stage.
And that's not to say that's why we're doing justice 2.0 and
we're creating networks to build hope.
That's why we're doing it because people deserve to feel
hopeful about their lives. The the research also
highlighted that so many people said, I wish we could return to
a bit more social work kind of focus, relational focus.
That's where we get our energy from.
That's where we see progress. That's where we see investment.
So the promise of risk management I think is an
illusion. I just think if you manage need,
risk will sort itself out. If we give people the right
support with addiction and debt management because that's what
they need, and relational skills because that's what they need,
risk sorts itself out. We don't need to be worrying
about risk as much as we do. So all the time we restrict and
oppress people. I know I'm like, you restrict
and oppress me, I'm going to kick off.
I'm going to kick off. I'm not going to comply.
It's my life. And so when we're having, for
example, mapping meetings without the person in the room
and we're making decisions on their behalf and controlling
them more and more and more, not sure why we thought that was a
good idea. I appreciate they don't.
There's some things they don't need to know about because of
victims suspectives. I get that, but not including an
individual in their own rehabilitation makes no logical
sense. So including individuals in
their life and giving them responsibility, that's, that's
got to be the right way. Giving them that agency is
really important. I've recently read the Hope and
Probation report and I think it's really important to
recognise that there are practitioners, there are
training probation officers, there are people that really do
have that hope and really do work to support people and to
put that in place. Yeah, yeah.
It wasn't necessarily evident in the people you spoke to, but I
think it's, you know, there's a lot of people that are doing
that, working hard. Here in spite of, that's it,
isn't it? They're doing that in spite of,
and even the people that we spoke with, they really wanted
hope. They really, and they were, they
were almost still hopeful because they were still in it
and they were still working hard and they're like, it's going to
change and it's going to be all right.
So absolutely, I still am so admired by whether it's
probation or prison staff rocking up every day and still
having hopeful conversations. And for me, there's something
about message to the students. Really think about how do you
refuel self compassion well-being, how do you show up
everyday? And having a plan, a really
clear plan on how you do that, because the work is really tough
and what we hear and see and feel, it can be really hard.
And we need to have a plan in place so that we can run, run
the distance. Because it's not Sprint, is it?
It's a marathon. But like you say, it's so
admirable that you've still got incredible staff that do an
amazing job every day. And we found that in our
thematic with HMIP where we interviewed people around mental
health and the impact criminal justice has on their mental
health, they talked about relationships.
My probation officers got my back, they support me, they call
me out on my behaviour, but they are absolutely there for me.
And that's the stuff that makes my mental health much, much
better. We found that in the mental
health thematic, the electronic monitoring thematic
relationships are throughout it, unsurprisingly.
And don't underestimate that individual probation officer.
People still say it was that individual that helped me change
my life. And that's from 10 years on.
That's from 20 years on. So we have to decide what kind
of influence we want to have on people.
And I think having a positive influence is a much better
choice. I think it's really great that
you have people with lived experience because like you say,
change is difficult. But also I know when I was
managing a team of probation officers, sometimes they would
lose a bit of hope thinking I've worked with this person.
And so actually I think to inspire individuals that change
is possible or that they can achieve positive outcomes
because we can all lose a bit of hope, can't we?
And actually then when you listen to someone that's saying
I have managed to desist from crime, it is actually really
inspiring. And we probably all need to hear
that sometimes when it's tough or someone saying my probation
officer was helpful. If you don't always feel it.
And have you got any other tips to or why that's important to
involve a living? Experience in terms of that,
it's so important. I mean, I appreciate it's a
prison example, but in a high security estate, you never see
what happens, right? So you meet people for maybe 15
years when they're doing their first part of their sentence and
you never know unless they come back 20 years later if they've
re offended once they got through the system and then back
in again. But you never know those
stories. You know, the beauty of
probation, I think is that we see, we see growth, don't we?
And, and if you're local to, I always remember in Portsmouth,
you'd walk down the street and you'd meet someone that you just
had groups with or someone that you knew and they were with
their family and you got to see them.
And they were really proud to say, this is my wife and this is
my kids. And, and you get to experience
all of that. And I think when I worked in
prisons, I then thought you don't get any of the success
stories. You don't hear any of that.
Why would you have hope if you know that all these people, they
just keep on coming. So for me, that experience is so
important in terms of getting that voice heard and to get
those hopeful stories out there is also about talking about the
difficulties of the system. And I think we've got to do that
really ethically and responsibly in the sense of not triggering
and re traumatising people. That in some senses this culture
has emerged where you're kind of rolling people out and saying,
right, tell us about your lived experience of being in a gang
and seeing your best friend die. And that's a real example of
someone saying that to a group of funders and, and look at what
this individual and then talk about how my organisation helped
you. I think there's something about
how we can really support our lived experience community
because they have got so much, they have got legitimacy that I
will never have because they've been there and they've done it.
And I feel that there is a little bit of a rub there
sometimes in terms of processes. I think you've got this idea
that lived experience is really great for the success story.
And we'll keep them in that box there.
But if we want them to be part of strategic policy making or
reform, or if we want them to train leaders, suddenly it all
gets a bit like, well, no, we kind of just want to keep them
here. You know, they're really good at
telling a good story. But I think the, the potential
of the lived experience community and we have got a, a
global community of wonderful human beings that have got a lot
to say and they bring with it something really, really
special. And I think just acknowledging
that maybe we can't offer that bit because we haven't stepped
in the shoes of people. That's all right.
We've stepped in the shoes of probation officers.
So that's OK. So I think not seeing them as a
threat, but seeing them as an absolute asset and integrating
them and welcoming them into our the cause and and the
organisation, I think so a win, an absolute win.
So imagine you've got a magic wand and you've got the power to
implement one major change for probation or the wider criminal
justice system. What would it be?
Just be culture change. But I think there's something
about culture change in the sense of the worth of it.
It's not, you know, we haven't got enough money to invest in
culture change. That's the narrative that we get
really regularly. And yet there is so much money
being invested into misconduct, grievances, corruption, self
harm in prison, suicide in prison.
And you think if you invested in culture, then a lot of this
stuff would sort you out? I mean, I'm not saying it would
all sort out, but a lot of it would really, really help.
So we talk about the miracle question.
If you woke up today and your prison was purely rehabilitation
focused and growth orientated, what would it look like, feel
like? What would people be doing?
I think there's something for me about if I could wave a magic
wand, it would almost be about to do that.
Just say you wake up and you walk into a probation office and
you feel like you belong as a team.
All of that culture is switched. Everything's turned on its head.
So that's where I would be. Thank you for that.
Also, I'm interested in some of the other work you've done about
the importance of green and blue spaces and how that helps with
changing behaviour and growth. Yeah, absolutely.
So this was really inspired by the Norwegian work, but we
established something called the Principles of Growth.
So I went into 3 prisons in Norway and looked at what were
the things that promoted growth, not only for the staff but also
for those that that lived there. And we created the Principles of
Growth. So that included relationships,
of course. It included finding purpose and
meaning, having good coping strategies, learning new things,
investing in people. So there were lots of principles
and I've written lots about it. So if you're interested then
please either contact me or have a look.
But one of the key principles was connecting to nature and
looking at it's not necessarily just the relationships that we
hold with humans, but also the relationships we hold with
potentially animals in our environment more broadly.
And part of that is the therapeutic and the restorative
effect of green spaces. So forests, woods, plants and
blue spaces, which is essentially water.
So loads of academic literature within the geography community
that looks very much about environment, how the environment
can actually heal us, how it can support us.
And we kind of know this intuitively, right?
Like I think about COVID and us being able to go for a walk that
was massive, wasn't it? In terms of walking in the woods
or walking by the sea or that therapeutic kind of notion that
engaging with nature and hearing nature and being mindful in
nature is really important. So loads of literature about it,
but I think what was really fascinating from a research
point of view is that this real connection with animals and for
anyone who's got pets, I guess would maybe resonate with, but
this idea that they don't judge, they don't talk back.
They do bark, of course. But you know, a lot of the time
it's that pure acceptance and that love and that kind of
unconditional love that that people get an awful lot from
their pets or from animals more broadly.
So how we connect with not only ourselves and our relationship
with our self, self compassion, how we connect with others, how
we connect with us, those we serve and how we connect with a
bigger environment. If all that lines up, that is
really, really powerful. So a lot of the time within our
training, we talk a lot about, OK, so let's talk about how your
relationship with yourself. Is that lined up?
Are you living the values that you that you that matter to you?
And when you're not living those values, that's we see moral
injury. That's what we see along the
way, because people are really struggling with that.
So we talk about that. We then layer that up with let's
talk about the relationships that you serve.
And then let's talk about our relationship with the world
around us and really getting practitioners to think about,
right, what do I need to do on a daily basis to line these things
up? Because all the time you do
that, you're working in your element, you have the most
energy, you're able to thrive as much as possible.
The environment around us is really important.
And sometimes we can be in really oppressive environments,
IE prison, which are red in nature, and we can be in
environments that are really green, that are really conducive
to our growth. So even as a mapping exercise,
you know, we've done it within offices, but we've also done it
within prisons where you go round an environment, like a
physical environment and say, right, OK, where is growth here?
You know, when people are playing, I don't know, chess at
the table, that's when we can see people learning and growing.
Where are the red spaces? So where is there danger spots
or, you know, dark alleys or dark stairwells or spaces that
don't inspire? How can we make that more
inspirational? So we do kind of audit of the
environment just to try and line it all up because the minute it
lines up then people start feeling a bit better is what
we've learnt. Yeah, thank you.
You've touched a bit already about the importance of
reflective practise, but a key part of their probation officer
training is reflecting on your practise.
I just wondered your thoughts on reflective practise and any tips
Sarah. Do it relentlessly, make it a
habit. I think sometimes the culture is
when a manager sets up a reflective practise session we
attend and that's reflective practise that isn't reflective
practise, reflective practises, the littlest things, you know,
at the end of every day, just reflecting on, OK, what do I
need to stop doing, stop doing, continue doing.
It's about think, reflecting on how we feel when we walk into
the office every morning because that's going to impact on our
relationships and how we speak to people and what's going on.
Actively asking people for feedback so we can reflect and
learn is really important. But invariably it's based in
workshops and activities that kind of bolted on to the
everyday, which is just reactive and relentless.
And it's all about fast thinking and I think there's no balance
in that. So it's so invaluable in terms
of that self-awareness piece. But in order to achieve that,
you have to practise, have a habit of reflection and you have
to do that relentlessly and without compromise.
So do it as a meeting. That's what you know, that's
what we do as a team. We do it as a meeting or you
know, a meeting to ourselves sometimes.
So I schedule in a meeting at the end of the day where I'm
just like, well, it's just reflect on the day, what have I
learnt? What am I going to do tomorrow
differently? It's all about holding yourself
to account, taking responsibility if you're
learning, because no one's going to come and do it for you.
That's a great tip, isn't it? Probation officers are obviously
really busy, but trying to block out five minutes, even if that's
all we've got at the end of the day to.
Yeah, that's great. Thanks, Sarah.
So you've mentioned lots of your publications already, and we
refer to them throughout the Pequip training that we deliver,
but what key readings or articles would you recommend our
listeners to read? We'll be putting these in the
show notes of the episode. It's do you know what?
It's that when I got the questions, it was the hardest
one. I think it was the hardest one
to answer because I don't know if people read books anymore.
I did think about fundamental books that have really kind of
changed my life and maybe ever thought it way too much, but
there are loads of really good resources out there.
There's a book that that I'm lucky to have a chapter in
around transforming environments and rehabilitations.
If you want to do the kind of academic book thing, then that
would be it's an edited book by Adrian Needs that's just
wonderful. But for me, there's something
about I read Carl Rogers on Becoming a Person, which was all
about humanistic psychology, and I read that literally.
I went on holiday. It's about like a therapy in
creating conditions of relational practise essentially,
but not within criminology. But it was just really eye
opening to I think find who inspires you and read their
stuff, whether that's a blog, a podcast.
Shabnaroo has done loads of stuff.
Go and see him talk, find someone who links to your values
and do it that way. When I became a teacher at uni
and did the fellowship, we had a teacher there who who trained us
to to do that. And there's a book called
Tuesdays with Maury when she said every teacher needs to read
this. I mean, again, it's just a book
that is about values and about regrets and about life more
broadly. So I don't know about a
particular book, but they're books that have shaped me, have
been those two books. And I think there's just
something about seeking out the people that you really resonate
with and the the reading that's really accessible for you and
just going with that and do and, and, and learning in lots of
different ways, you know, whether that is podcasts or book
chapters, whatever that may be. But yeah, that would be my
advice. Thank you for that very full
response. A lot of our guests jump
straight to recommending their own publications.
Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't say that. I just say find your, find your
tribe, find find the people. Loads of stuff coming out about
lived experience at the moment. The value of with that convic
criminology, if you're interested in that.
There's loads of really, really good lyrical criminology was an
article that completely changed the way I thought about auto
ethnographies. Absolutely beautifully written.
So I think there's moments of of knowledge that you just think is
are just wonderful. I think it's just finding your
own voice and finding your own values and and starting there.
Thank. You so much.
Is there anything that you wanted to share that we haven't
given the opportunity to talk about, Sarah?
I think there's just something, the last thing I would say, and
I did a talk to some probation leaders a few months ago and
people talked about I'm only one and there's only me.
How could I possibly change things?
And I would just say don't underestimate the power of you,
whether that's in practise, if you're working with those that
we serve, or whether that's around reform, if you want to
get involved in Justice 2.0 But don't underestimate the
influence, good or bad, that that people have on other
people. I think the only other thing is
that invest some time in really understanding what are the
things that really fire you and energise you and what do you
want to say within this craft of probation?
Because that's the stuff that's really meaningful.
And invariably people leave probation because they lose that
sense of meaning. So it's something that's worth
investing in because it is so rewarding to see people grow
like there's nothing like it, nothing like it.
So just wish everyone the best really.
Thank you very much, Sarah. Thanks for listening to
Probation Perspectives Insights into community justice.
We hope our conversation with Doctor Sarah Lewis gave you
fresh insights into the power of therapeutic relationships and
probation work. From relational practise to the
vision behind Justice 2.0, we hope you came away with new
ideas to reflect on and take into your own work, whatever
your role is in the system. If you found this episode
helpful, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your
colleagues or fellow learners. We'd love to hear your thoughts
or suggestions for future topics and guests.
A huge thank you to Doctor Sarah Lewis for sharing her time,
wisdom and passion, and to everyone who helps make this
podcast. Possible.
We'll be back soon with more conversations that shine a light
on the practise, purpose and people behind probation and
community justice. Until next time, take care.