Welcome to the episode of Husbands Watching Housewives.
I'm Scott. And I'm Jeff.
And we just watched a fucking crazy episode of The Real
Housewives of Orange County. It was very confusing.
It's very confusing. We're already swearing this is E
for explicit Hide your children. That's your.
Children. They should not be listening to
this so. Yeah, I didn't think it was
going to go this way. I'm very confused by this
addendum. Yeah, you know.
Like I thought I thought we were going to have a moment of like
well no shit. Gretchen's conservative and
supports anti LGBTQ stuff, which I still think is true.
I'd I'm going to say like, let's.
Not it's a strong possibility. I'm going to say like, it's, I
like, again, I don't think that this distraction, I feel like
what they're offering us is a distraction as if, as if we were
supposed to say maybe this wasn't true.
I think the way that she responded in the way that she
did not immediately defend herself is that she knew she was
caught. What I'm really concerned about
in the very long run is why production through Tamra under
the bus the way that they did. And reversed, yeah, drove back
over like it was a they really were just this, this like voice.
I mean the disguise, his voice was he disguising his voiceless
person who had all the receipts, right.
It was just so it's. Eddie.
It's Slade with like the Scream voice decoder.
Yeah, no, that, that's the weird thing.
Is it like, I don't think that any of this is far fetched.
The fact that they're trying to make it and, and I mean, hats
off to Emily. If if if they say that Emily is
as serve as she is for her to like be taking the side that
she's taking like hats off to all of them to be shocked that
Gretchen would feel this way. The thing is, they didn't go
deep into why this could possibly be true because they
don't talk about politics and how.
I mean, maybe there's more to that conversation.
You know, they're always there for so much longer than than
what's shown. But it's it's worth making the
point of let's say this is all fake.
These are doctored screenshots, chat, chat, PGPT, whatever AI
made these like hateful posts that she supposedly liked.
It's not far fetched based on the fact that we know Gretchen
is very conservative and preaches that.
And so I it's not out of the realm of possibility for me to
believe like she would like things like that.
That's why it's easy to believe, right?
It's just interesting how they all were like, well, wait, maybe
it's not like I don't know why I I wish that someone had said
like you're you're MAGA. Let's just say the word like,
like not avoid trying to avoid. You know this is your.
Political, I mean, I will, I will say in general, like I'm
pretty sure MAGA means to different people different
things that it means to us. So maybe we should not use that.
But she's conservative, and she believes in a traditional
Christian. She supports a movement that is
very likely to not support the LGBTQ plus community, right
period. So if you're saying to me,
Gretchen, like these, these posts that are anti all of this,
I could believe it because that's who she supports.
You can't just say I'm voting fiscally.
I'm voting, you know, like for like.
I want lower egg prices. You know and not and not
realize, but you're supporting people who hate other people who
are very hateful rhetoric. But also the same.
I'm not saying she's supporting, you know, very like hardcore
anti, you know, like bored. I would say the words but.
But at the same time, like in in my head, I'm kind of like, OK,
she has to like, it's not beyond, it's not beyond the
realm of possibility that if she's trying to Curry favor with
a certain type of person that she would like those things.
If she's trying to impress people who are anti LGBTQ, I can
see her saying and liking and trying to appear that way.
The same way that now that she's on a pretty liberal television
show, one that at least tries to remain liberal and appeal to all
the different, you know? That remains liberal.
I think it rings very neutral. They don't talk about politics.
I mean, closest thing that we got to that was during the 2016
election on New York, when Carol, yeah, storyline that she
was very pro Hillary. So I mean, so Bravo's not
without its own problems, I'm not saying that, but.
I think Bravo doesn't talk about this.
But Bravo, whether like it or not, Bravo has a very large
LGBTQ. Yeah, but I think demographic
and not no pun intended what Trump's that are the white
middle-aged women right very well very well fall into this
camp yeah who support OK bravo. So you can look at the online
community, people who are making all these Tik Toks, these very
these podcasts, yeah, these funny, like, you know, very bold
gay men, people, you know, even behind the scenes as producers
of podcasts or like who basically people who are putting
out content. What you see online doesn't
necessarily reflect what you people who are actually watching
the show, just as the people who are very hateful online and I'm
talking to hateful, not like about, you know, LGBT whatever,
basically saying like I hate this housewife.
You know, keyboard warriors don't necessarily reflect what
people think in, you know, other parts of the country.
Like yeah, no Internet. Right.
Oh no, I I get what you're saying.
So, you know, I, I don't think Bravo is very liberal.
I think they're very. They're walking the line.
They're walking the lines. They don't want to alienate
people. Once in a while, Andy will, you
know, very much of voice his opinions because of course he's
going to. He's a gay man.
You know he's going to say call out certain people.
But on what happens live, but it's just you're not going to
really see that. Yeah, seeing Heather support the
Trevor Project, of course, it's definitely a statement, but it's
a very small segment. It's a very short segment and.
Yeah, and doesn't get as much airtime.
Yeah, you're right. Absolutely.
Right there was, yeah. Yeah, so I mean, I'm again, but
still you'd expect like Bravo historically has tried to like
walk both sides of the fence like more than Karen does.
So like it just seems really strange that there would be this
element that's like you could easily.
It's just so weird because like, I don't want to, I don't want to
in my heart support Gretchen, any of this, because it does
seem like she liked I, I do believe in my heart that she
supports anti LGBTQ sentiments. And if she like as a human, I, I
can, if I were to believe anything that she that we were
shown on this episode, like maybe she doesn't wholly believe
these things, but she supports those that do and she's not yet
reconciled what that means. That's not my problem though,
you know, like at this. Yeah, also, it's very easy for
her to do this because she is a, a white cisgender woman woman,
right, in Orange County, right. She's not walking in the shoes
of people who have to face hardships.
And it's one thing to be like, I had a drag bronze.
She had a drag Tupperware party at my house and like, I went to
the Abbey and I've done events, you know, with gays and like my
hair stylist and some of my best friends, you know, whatever,
whatever. But it's quite another to like
be Heather and have children, three children who are members
of that community. You know, that it's more
meaningful. Like you are walking the walk.
This means something to you. You support your children.
You support these issues. It's not just like, oh, my hair
stylist is gay. Well, you know.
Yeah. Like, to me, everything that
Gretchen was saying to try to defend herself, which wasn't
much initially, was very much like that whole idea of what is
it called when you're the model minority that like, oh, some of
my best friends are gay. It's like, OK, that's fine.
You're OK with the people that don't offend you.
Oh. You mean she's she's talking
about people who are the model minority, right?
Like the harmless drag queen, right?
Gay hairstylist, right? But the activist who's acting
like Dylan Mulvaney, right? Asking for, you know.
Actual equality like. In my rights and like Knox be
harmed because of being a trans person, that's where you
supporting that person. Right.
I think that's where she's saying, no, I don't support that
thing. So it's like when they're just
like they're not bothering my lifestyle, they're fine.
Like they aren't in cringing on impinging on me being, you know,
a white woman, you know? Whatever.
I can use the words today. I can use pronouns too, yeah.
Exactly. I'm a girly girl, yeah.
I can I can see that where I where I'm really, I don't know
where I'm really starting to. I don't like I I the way they
edited this whole thing. It just feels really dirty.
Like I don't it's also I don't, I don't believe Tamara would be
this calculating, but at the same time I don't feel like they
could pull it out of thin fucking air.
Yeah, there's got to be. And I really hope that Tamra
didn't do anything to like make this worse.
So the whole idea like should. We start from the beginning.
We we we're no hope for doing that I'd.
Like to go through. Let's get there in a moment
before I forget where I'm going. I feel like the whole idea that
they said that Tamra may have created accounts that made this
happen, like that's kind of what I got out of it.
They were saying like Tamara was behind some of these accounts
that made a little Gretchen was saying this would suggest that
Tamara was like creating fake Gretchen accounts to have this
year a year before like anti LGBT.
It just seems so over the top weird.
It's a lot of work too. Which I don't think that Tamara
1 is that Hardy with her. Work she didn't even know.
Gretchen was coming back. To the show, it didn't.
That's the thing. Like Tamara doesn't think about
Gretchen like this. I hope she doesn't.
Gretchen thinks about Tamara like this.
So there again, I wouldn't last week, I would not have thought
this, but the fact that like Bravo's putting this forward,
like there's a lot on their part that's like Tamara is a
commodity of theirs to an extent.
Yes. And so the fact that they're
like putting it out there that Tamara would like go to the
lengths to create fake accounts to make it look like Gretchen
was. It wasn't even.
I mean, that's part of it. That's when they get it in their
reunion clip. The main thing at the end.
Well, let's yeah, we'll go end then we'll back to the head be
full circle. The main thing from that little
add on scene, which I don't like doing that.
I don't. It was, you know, last year when
they did that, it was, you know, more innocuous.
They're like we're sisters were thinking whatever it was to drop
some like bomb at the end about. Yeah.
But it's weak, I think, in storytelling turn.
Yeah, that you have to like it's, it's obviously produced.
It's just like, let's get these three together.
And someone reached out to Gina and said Tamara's leaking stuff,
I can prove it. They call the person and they go
give me some examples. And he goes boom, boom, boom.
Like 6 examples of stuff that wouldn't have been known because
it hadn't aired yet. So this is more so about like
they're saying Tamara's leaking information to bloggers, to fan
pages, whatever. I don't recall these things
coming out. I'd also not looking for them
deeply. Like I'm not looking for
spoilers right about Housewives, but it feels like this would be
more all over the place. Yeah, yeah.
It's just so that whole thing seemed and they are just so
quick to be like, of course. And then especially when he
said, you know, that Tamara was hatching a plan with Gina.
Gina's like, oh, no, not me. Like don't bring me into this.
And I don't know, it was just so weird to have all this evidence
against Tamara from this mystery voice who could be anybody.
He could be on Gretchen's payroll.
He could be a part of, I don't know, like, why are we giving
this air time of hearing somebody saying things?
I guess because it proves that they know things that only
production and people involved. Would know and the timing of it
all like that's I think that was my one take away from that whole
like epilogue was that before anything aired there were
stories out there that were like detailing things that had
happened before anyone should have known about them.
So the idea of Gretchen coming after her, where she walks off
and Eddie gives the finger, you know, that whole thing, like
that whole moment was he would. That's what that was suggesting
is that before anyone knew that happened, that was already being
put out there into the universe in a time where like it would be
irrelevant. But I don't know really what
that. There was there like were there
posts about all this? That's what I want to see.
You can say like what was this information?
This person was saying this information that they knew.
This person, Kiki Monique. Will be her Bravo con with
Tamara on it. This person knows all this
information but what were they doing with it aside from proving
that they knew all the information?
And why was production again giving air time to this person?
Unless it basically it's just to try to prove a point that Tamra
was leaking this information because then you had all three
women, Jen, Gina and and Shanna and basically saying like, well,
how could she do this? This is our show and.
And that's where I just don't understand, like, what that
behooves production to do. True.
Yeah. Like, unless they're just
really, unless they have something really amazing planned
for Season 20, which probably they do, but like, I don't.
It's just it's really confusing overall.
I'm very confused about what's the point of it and you're the
timing of it. Like the fact that this thing
was done to Gretchen and then all of a sudden this person is
like, I know all these things. I mean, if someone I don't know
if you can have, you can have like so many conspiracy theories
and go down a rabbit hole, but who knew what and who told who
when and how is Gretchen involved and how is Tamara
involved? But I think the overall point is
it's so messed up and confusing and it's bringing things off
camera on camera, and that's what it is.
When you bring things that happen off camera on camera, it
doesn't translate and it gets very confusing for the audience
and I it's not, it's not good TV.
And you're right, I think on top of that, like what does the show
gain from this? They get at most a week's worth
of us and people like us and controversies.
We're. Talking about and at the end of
the day, it's not going to go anywhere.
We're going to get next week's reunion.
They probably won't talk about that.
Then they'll probably save that for the third episode.
So they probably get 4 weeks of. Like in the trailer, it was
brought up, you know, like I think it gets a brought up
pretty soon because we see OK them watching the scene of, you
know, the three talking to this. I don't know.
We, we could be, we could be getting fed aligned.
That could be the third week of the reunion.
That's true. We'll never know.
We hear like Gretchen saying like it's so fucked up for you
to do this, Tamrod. I don't know.
And it's just it's a BLOB. And it makes me when people say
this isn't a good season. I think it was a good season
that this was not a good finale for me because it's just such a
mess. And it doesn't it's not just
because, you know, there's the person I like the most is being
thrown on the bus. I, it's, it's because I, it
makes my brain hurt trying to figure out what's going on.
You've lost me as a viewer because you brought in all this,
all this outside stuff. It's become too much about
what's happening off the show than what's happening on the
show, which, which means there's not enough happening on the show
That's interesting to make a show.
So you need to go to bloggers and mystery people to try to
make something happen. And that is when you have fucked
yourself. I I didn't.
Yeah, no. Need to like, like, and what's
happening is that this is this is happening because you have
two people who are trying to destroy one another and it's
hurting the show. And I think you just can't go on
that way. So I mean, I, you're, I agree
with you 100% where I'm confused, and I'm not trying to
be devil's advocate here. Like Gretchen has historically
displayed very conservative values.
So unless they're all just lying out their asses, the fact that
Heather herself was like this doesn't sound like Gretchen.
Like there's an element to me that's like, OK, maybe she's not
like that, but is the really is the real truth that she just
doesn't express herself to Heather like that?
Exactly. And so I'd be more interested in
hearing about that and like, really like that's what I'm more
interested in to the bottom of not because I want to label
someone or, or feel better putting someone in a box saying
that, you know, Gretchen is this or is not this.
But like, to me, if that's what we're we've watched the last 16
or 15 weeks for however many to like not even that to come up
with is like, what are we supposed to feel about this
relationship that has been forged, you know?
I don't understand that relationship, but I also think
it's a classic case of, well, she's not like that with me.
Yeah. But you don't know then all
parts of her and all facets of her personality or what she does
when she's not with you saying I love you, you're my friend, I
support your family, you know, etcetera, etcetera.
Right. Have you stopped her and said,
but do you support my family when and if this happened and
find out like well, no because you know the Bible says.
Was she at? Was Gretchen at that Trevor
Project function? She wasn't.
I don't doesn't mean anything, but I don't know.
Yeah, I. I think now we start from the
beginning because now we're like we're beating.
Well, where the hell was the beginning?
You tell me. The beginning was the day after
with Gretchen talking to Slade and, you know, saying like one
thing, I should get over it and hard because I'm traumatized
and, you know, because we were saying like, what?
What happens? It's like they do they go
swinging. We'll never do.
I would do that. That'd be fine.
I think I've. Actually, I would die.
I think I was, and tell you I was actually, I think I was
there before that attraction opened.
Esther and Ben and I went. It was good.
I would the only time I felt for Gretchen, I was like, I would be
shaking as well. It would give me a physical
reaction to be I know I'm a harder stand.
I know it's, it's safe, but no. So after that, Tamara gives her
an apology. You know, about the whole, the
cancer stuff and, and whatnot. And I'm sorry they did that.
And, you know, it was an actual, it seemed very real.
And they had a moment and like, we're going to be OK.
But you're like womp womp. Just wait.
Yeah. And then meanwhile, they're in
the maze. Are you picking up Gabs?
Yeah, I'm talking about trauma. But she was bumping, she was
head butting me. See, she's such a pretty Kitty,
meow. No, like I'm not.
Going to meow when you tell me the meow.
But I'm going to hold her. You keep talking.
What keeps that? No, she's fine.
She's like enjoying the lights. She's like, look at me, I'm a
star. I'm a big, bright shining star.
Oh my goodness. What's that?
Anyway, this is a dead air. Cut it out.
I lost track of what then. Sorry, I didn't realize a cat
could do that to you. Well, it's.
She needed me. She was headbutting me real
good. She needed some snuggles,
clearly. OK, I'll put her down.
Yes, you can start talking about housewives.
OK, I didn't. Realize that Gabs was your Kip
tonight. No, it's just like it threw me
off and then, yeah, we'll cut this out.
Sure, we will. OK, Yeah, we will.
We'll totally cut this out. So.
Gretchen. Yes.
We will cut this out. I'm sorry, I didn't realize this
was going to throw you. Some yeah, yeah, yeah.
Crap. I don't know.
They had the one on the swings. Oh, they're doing the maze thing
with Shannon. Oh, that was funny.
Shrooms. That was funny, like again, the
fact that Shannon did shrooms, that was amazing a lot.
Of people we should not do shrooms.
Maybe. Yeah, she feels like she's on
shrooms. But that whole experience in the
maze had to have been freaking weird.
The fact that they they used your own image and like, if
you're already well, maybe they weren't expecting people to be
on shrooms, but. I'm sure they expect people to
be on drugs because that's what her daughter said.
You should, you know, mushrooms and then go through it.
Then it's the same thing with the tulips.
Right, extra surreal and extra weird.
All the elements, Yeah, yeah, see, yeah.
There was like, they were like little moments of levity them on
the bikes and whatever. And then like having actual
conversations, you know, when they had the picnic and, you
know, talking about Jen and, you know, you should be more
financially secure. So you have to depend on Ryan.
And I did, I did enjoy that. Like they got to express things
that in other episodes, like, oh, you know, like there's this
whole thing about your Instagram, blah, blah, blah.
Like they got to express that like you, that should be more
about you. Like when I open that, when I
open it, I feel it's about Ryan. It should be more about you.
Right. Like, OK, that makes sense.
Which I think then other episodes they could misconstrue
like, well, yeah. It's not disparaging Ryan,
basically just saying like you should have your own identity.
And also if you can monetize that, that'd be great as well.
Yeah, you know, because you're doing these workouts anyways.
Why not be like, I used these dumbbells from so and so and,
you know, whatever. So no, those are good
conversations. They're like, you know, when
they Shannon was like I hurt you, hurt my feelings when
Gretchen tried to make something happen and failed about, you
know, them making fun of her that.
Oh, it was banks and everything. The fact that she said like,
could it be the thing we're fat shaming you?
Like if you have to, why would you say that?
If you have to say the phrase, could it be that they were
trying to fetch like? Then that's you putting it out
there. Let me lead you to this water,
right? Right.
If it's not obvious already, then yeah, that's yeah, yeah.
Yes, so I'm glad that like you know, Emily quickly was like,
I'm sorry, shut up, Gretchen, but and also I'm sorry if I hurt
your feelings. Yeah, but I mean they were
making. Fashion they were told you're
making whatever, but I I but not in the like a like you're you
know you're a horrible fat person, right?
I, I really feel it was more about her like reliance upon the
Spanx, right? Like, like Shannon's just like a
like held together by all that stuff when it's like, why does
she need to be like, why does she feel that way?
Like that's what I was getting out of.
Also, it's a part of her shtick that like I'm hoisting myself up
in these Spanx almost like, you know, like a Victorian lady
putting herself in a girdle, right?
You know so. Yeah, I, I, I get it that they
like it. They were definitely poking fun
at her, but in a way that I feel like she's poking fun at
herself. Right.
But I think that she'd been there.
It'd be a different story. Absolutely.
Laugh along and be like, oh, biscuits and then you know.
Yeah, but the Gretchen was definitely trying to make drama.
Where? As soon as she walked away with
her, I was like, where is she doing?
Why is she like, I need a moment alone for you, Shannon.
Yeah, yeah. And then the whole Heather.
Much better than Sutton with MERS and the purse.
So much better. Like just having that moment,
like just going and seeing the the old house they used to live
in. And bringing just Emily, which
is a choice, I would say, like I wouldn't I never would have
thought a million years. Like let's bring Emily.
Like I figured she'd bring Shannon or maybe Tamara, right.
But and you know, good, good. For, you know, going through
kind of as, as she was saying similar thing and whatnot.
But yeah, I think having just the coincidence of that man
walking out and saying come into the house and beautiful house,
being able to have those memories, talk about her father
and then have an actual real moment when she spread his ashes
not into the wind was really nice too.
So that was I think before the storm to have like these little
bits of moment. Moments were great.
Yeah. Was like the other moments
before we got to the the dinner I.
Don't think so. I mean, Gina looking fantastic
this whole episode, but I think that's only I'm only bringing
that up because of what the reunion dresses look like.
Which do we talk about that next year through next year, next
year? We will, but no, like still
like, I think, I don't know, like Emily or Gina's looking
really good and like in a way that I was not expecting.
Her outfits are really great, like when she was wearing the
when they're riding the bikes and she's a little schoolgirl
outfit and you know. Oh, that green jacket she was
wearing. Like, I want to.
I want something like that for myself.
Like, I want to dress like a college professor, right?
With the elbow pads. Yeah, elbow pads, not knee pads.
Definitely elbow pads, so. But yeah, so, and we got to see
Amsterdam and not in a hot tub time machine rolling down the
canal. So that was good, yeah.
So then yes. You were really trying to make
sense of this episode like you are you trying to bring it back
to an actual like show before? Well, I don't want to like, just
talk about like the ending and there's other things we need to
cover. Yeah.
Not that we're, you know, again, we're not a recap show, but we
need to talk about they were nice moments before the shit hit
the fan. And so I think like talking
about that is, is good because we can't, you know, we want to
focus on everything that happened in the episode.
So they tried to make it a well-rounded finale before they
got into a really dark rabbit hole.
Yeah. So, So yeah, the dinner didn't
go. I like what Tamara said.
Let's wait till the last dinner because then we cop on a plane
and, you know, we're done. So the things get exposed and
everyone is just so quick to say, oh, well, that's bad, you
know, and I do go back to her saying before it was weird how
calm Gretchen was about it. Of what do you mean?
I don't know. I don't, I don't think I'd like
that, you know? That when's the last time like
if I were to be like, Hey, I saw you liked this thing on you
would know what you liked and then like, or you'd at least be
like that sounds like something I'd like.
Well you can also say was it Slade who runs her account when
she's not if she's an influencer needing to be running her
account 24/7 because she's working true show.
So if someone just scrolling through and finding anti trans
anti whatever posts and like. Them right?
I don't. Again, I don't understand.
Again, if it comes. That's the question I hope it
gets asked to the reunion. Who has access to your to your
Instagram? Is it just you or could somebody
else possibly like these things right?
It comes down to it, though, that like, if you were to say to
me, oh, you liked this thing, I'm like, I would not know.
Like she was very much like, well, that doesn't sound like
something. It's like.
I don't know. Show me the things.
Yeah, very, very eerily calm about it.
Because she again like I. And then calling the Slade as
if. What was that going to do?
Call them after you're finished the.
I don't know how you come back on housewives having liked
things like that without being ready to address them.
And so I feel like the way she was calm about it was like, I've
been expecting this. Like, of course this would
happen. And I I don't know if she
thought that maybe she would have when the moment happened,
like the most perfect thing to say and she didn't.
But like, it seems to me that that's you either when you do
something that's against your character, you speak up very
loud and very quickly, very adamantly about it.
And you're just like, that is not true.
And you can do it wholeheartedly without hesitation.
And the fact that she's like, well, what are you talking
about? I just like.
I mean, maybe it's weird for me to try to, again, I'm not
playing playing devil's advocate either.
But as Heather said, she could have been in shock.
She could have been thinking, what do I say?
What do I say that's going to make this better?
So you're rolling around in your mind thinking, how do I correct
this? And you have.
But it is odd that Heather has such this big reaction and a lot
of energy coming at her and Gretchen isn't matching that.
Instead she is very calm and she walked up to her afterwards.
You know, I don't, I wouldn't say that I love your family.
It was just too calm. I don't need her to be
hysterical because she got a little bit when she was outside
of the car, right? But, well, that's because that's
the way the women were treating her.
It was like. Oh, they were shutting her down.
You're you're, you are ostracizing me over my beliefs
now. Like, oh, this is becoming real.
Well, no, it was more so aside from Tamra who had to be held
back, everyone was very quiet. Right?
That made her reaction be big, whereas if the table everyone
had a big reaction. Well, mainly Tamra and Heather
and she was very calm. So it's weird that she was
flipping the energy. Yeah, she was receiving.
Yeah. You know, I don't know.
I don't know what makes her tick.
I don't I don't understand. I think she's a calculating
person. I think she shared that with the
the Shannon incident, but I don't I don't know what to
believe. I don't know if this now it
makes me question if it if she again, I don't question the fact
that she could like these things or could have these beliefs, but
I wonder about the validity of these screenshots.
Oh, really? Well when you say the next when
the next day Gina says I can't find these.
Aside from the screenshots, I can't find her liking these
actual posts. Right.
Unless Slade cleaned them up right away.
Right. Or wipe the Internet.
I don't know if he has the ability to do that.
How did that happen, you know? Yeah, I mean.
That's why none of this makes sense.
Yeah, I just, it's too convenient in so many ways.
I don't know. If you were to turn, if I were
to turn to you and say like you liked this thing that you had
never seen in your life, you wouldn't be like, what are you
talking about? You'd be like, no, like you
would be more instantly, more adamantly like, no, I don't feel
that way. I never have felt that way.
Like the fact of the matter is, is that it comes down to that
Gretchen has a belief near to those things and she's trying to
mitigate the damage. Like I don't, I, I don't, I feel
like a fucking idiot for not just like someone who believes
those things or like could, could believe those things.
I don't want to have much sympathy for.
I don't want to like persecute someone wrongly but at the same
time like. I don't persecute them wrongly
in this one instance. Right, I'm just saying like she
doesn't deserve a lot of my sympathy because I'm I'm pretty
sure she does not like yay gays, like gays and trans in every
way. Like let's go ahead and like let
you know, let it all happen. I'm pretty sure she's supported
like, limiting gay rights and like making, you know, And the
only reason I'm being at all waffly about it is that I don't
know this person in real life. I don't know.
I've never had a conversation with her.
Like, I would feel better to say these things adamantly having
had a conversation with them personally.
But at the same time, the things that we've seen historically
about her doesn't lead me to believe that we should be like
giving her the benefit of the doubt.
But as a man on a podcast in this situation, I, you know, I
don't want to just condemn her immediately.
I want her to have her moment to like defend herself.
And it just doesn't seem like something.
That well, and then it goes back to just believing.
I've said many times it's hard to believe anything Gretchen
says because she lies, as she showed early on in the season
with the hospital thing, right? You know, just start at the
beginning of the season or even before they started filming.
When it was announced that she was coming back, it really irked
me because not just as a character, but also what she
stands for and what she believes in.
It bugged me that they would bring someone like that onto the
show. You know, they've had people
similar to that and they're no longer on the show, thankfully.
So just to bring that energy on, just to do a tit for tat while
they did it with a luxurious on Shanna, now they need to sick
somebody on Tamra and see what happens.
And this is what happens. This utter ball of confusion,
you know? Yeah, Yeah.
I don't think ultimately she was great for the show with the
energy that she brought. Not just this instance, but also
the Katy of it all, the being stuck of in the past and then
when you finally get to this, I don't and then bringing slate on
and that they're A2 Fer it's it's hard to watch.
It's hard to watch. I don't advocate for anyone
being fired about saying fire, I'm just saying she is hard to
watch. Well, I mean, she's just a temp
anyway, so I mean, come on. I mean, I, I don't, I would
think she wouldn't come back if they couldn't bring back Alexis.
I don't, should not bring back Gretchen.
I think when they're bringing on like these old beefs, I don't
think they're bringing them on with like any realistic.
They're trying to bring them on to like resolve a situation.
If they if they hit fire in a bottle or lightning in a bottle,
then good for them is what they're hoping.
But yeah, I don't think they're bringing on these old beefs to
like, really get anywhere with. It I feel people I was trying to
think just now of people of housewives who've been were
housewives and then were brought back as a friend and then
evolved into being a full time cast member and charade comes to
mind because she I can't remember all the details, but it
didn't seem that she was coming back with a vendetta right or
wanting to talk about things that happened in 2012 it.
Was more about where she was today.
Right and new beef, you know not focusing on I don't like Nini
for this reason from 2012 and instead I don't like Nini
because of 2020 whenever. Yeah, 2022.
No, you're right, absolutely. And that's why this is, you're
right and so confusing as to why they would go this way, why they
would like pivot to make it seem like Tamara's making this all
up, which I really. Do they want to have a balanced
as if they're saying, well, we're going to throw this out
there that maybe Gretchen, but The thing is.
They're like, we have the Mcbee dynasty.
We we might, might want to, might want to capitulate towards
a lot of conservative people now on Bravo.
Well, but you don't do that by making them seem as if they're
they're homophobic assholes. Well, but if it makes it out
that like the Liberals are trying to make them seem that
way, maybe I'm just saying I don't.
Think it's that. I think it was just interesting
how you throw it out there that potentially Gretchen could have
liked these horrible posts that are very anti LGBTQ and then you
quickly retract it after the commercial break.
Yeah. And then you pivot to Tamra's
leaking things, which doesn't really vibe with everything
else. It will be one thing if they are
trying to prove, if this person who called Gina said I can prove
to you that Gretchen didn't like these things, as Slade said, I
will. I will.
I'm going to go with the mat. He didn't say this, but he
basically, I'm going to prove it's Tamara.
I'm going to prove that you aren't this horrible homophobic
person. And then but how do you do that?
If you can't prove it, you pivot to something else, right?
IE Tamara is leaking information.
And then I'm just a conspiracy theorist.
It makes this is what you're doing show.
Now I'm thinking all these conspiracies, why would this
come out? Did Tamara action leak
information? Is it Slay?
Did he pay this voice person? And what voice person?
Who is this person? Who is this mystery person?
Well, I mean, you're supposed to assume this mystery person is
someone legitimate who they're hiding his identity.
Their Blogger. Their content creator.
There's something there's someone who needs their
identity. Gotta stop saying Blogger.
This is not. Yeah, it's not 1996.
Yeah. 96, 2006 Yeah, whichever. So yeah, I my main problem that
just doesn't sit right with me right now is like, why I should
give a shit. Like, I mean, honestly, before
any of tonight happened, we all assumed Gretchen and others on
the show had a very conservative leaning that they did not
necessarily support the LGBT community.
They don't support trans rights. They don't support any number of
things that you and I would. So like in any sort of regular
conversation. I don't know why I should be
giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Like, I guess for the storytelling and then for the,
you know, like this is reality. And like, we don't, you know, I
want to know, like, at the end of the day, that this person is
or was not thinking a certain way.
But the same time, like, I don't know, I don't want to give
Gretchen the benefit of the doubt.
Like, I believe that she liked those things.
I believe that whether she truly believes them, I believe she did
it. And that the conversation that
needs to be had is why she feels that's OK.
Why if she doesn't, if she can't stand up and say I didn't do
that and here's why. If she can't look Heather in the
face and say I love your kids and I think that they're great
and I liked these things, but I don't agree with this, this and
this. If she can't do that on a
camera, then I don't want I don't want to hear it, you know,
and that that's comes down like I'm curious, just for the sake
of fairness. I do want to hear that her side,
but I don't care at the end of the day.
Like I think, I think she's, I think that she's trying to
capitulate and make things OK so she can be on TV.
Does it suck if Tamara's putting it out there and like trying to
like make? Yeah, a little bit, but.
Do you think it's both things though?
Just focusing on the? Do you think she created these
AI generated forever? And also do you think she's
leaking information? Do you think both things are
just one or the other? I don't think Tamra, I don't
think any housewife would go through the trouble of creating
AI. Garbage maybe?
The thing is, like we come from going back to Diana on Beverly
Hills being accused of sticking bots on Garcelle's bots.
Are one thing. But still, it's, it's still,
it's making something out of nothing to attack a castmate.
So this is where we are in Housewives.
I can. I can see Tamara doing it just
because Tamara wants to be proven right.
I really hope that's not the case because I think Tamara
could have been proven right without it.
And that's where it just, it just doesn't make sense for the
show to do this because if they have put this idea out there
that Tamara has manufactured all of this just for the sake of
being right, then they have essentially fired Tamara again.
Like I don't think there's any way Tamara gets back from it.
Right, if you're well, I think it's more so about leaking
information is worse to them. So to make this case.
Oh yeah. So strongly from this person and
to put time stamps and date stamps on all of this to try to
prove a point that Tamara leaked this information.
I don't understand why they do that either.
I was her. I would be very upset seeing.
Especially when they know and they probably had major
negotiations over the fact that Tamara came back to the show
having had a successful podcasting, you know, stint and
knowing that she was going to have these things where she
couldn't talk about the show. And like she had involvement in
this in the press side of things.
Like they it just like it's like playing with fire almost.
I don't think that she would leak information.
I think maybe she might dig up Stop Not Maybe.
I think she would stop, but I don't think that she would leak
information to bloggers because she knows how that could come
back and be proven and hurt her and get her kicked off.
I would agree with that. She's not stupid.
I mean, unless this whole idea of wanting to quit, especially
last year, when what she's going through, she's just like, Oh,
well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to go down a blame
blaze of glory and you know she. I would say Blazer Gore.
I would say I don't care about this show.
I'll leak things. But again.
No, but like if I'm going to go down, I'm going to be in a ball
of fire. Like I'm not going to like
leave. Like this time, if I'm going to
leave, I'm not going to if I'm going to be the way I want to go
out. What?
Is the ball of fire. What is you?
What do you get from the saying leak is leaking this
information? Just that she did it her way
that like instead of being fired this time, it it would be like I
told the story that I wanted to tell.
Like, I mean, we start out if you remember on 2 TS she was
saying you're not going to like me this season and.
Well, I think that's more so like the quitting part and just
being flying off the handle and not being able to control her
emotions. I mean, if you were trying to,
if you were doing something you didn't like to do, but you were
like, and you didn't want to walk away from it, like if
you're trying to get yourself fired, this is a good way to
get. Self sabotage.
Yes it could. Be if she did this, yes, again,
I don't think she would do that either.
I think she would just walk away.
I would hope. So she was going to quit.
If Teddy hadn't talked her into going back, I don't think we
would have seen her the rest of the season.
Yeah. And something Katie would have
flipped through the entire season.
But I'm just saying though. But with that being said, she
went back and she's like, OK, well, if if I was ready to walk
away, like, you know, I'm just doing this for, you know, the
sake of getting paid more like. But you're not getting anything.
What I'm getting at is you're not getting at getting anything
from leaking information. That's why it's me.
One, she's not stupid. Two, you're not gaining anything
by leaking this information. So this person may have had all
the information, but what did they do with it?
It wasn't like with Teresa and Right, right, right.
That and Jen Aiden leaking information.
So I just started laughing. This voice is probably Katie.
It's she's like, Tamara told me what was going on.
But now. But she and Katie were were
good. They were like teaming up
against Spreadsheet, right? Right, right.
So it's like, couldn't be Katie either.
You don't gain anything. That's why it's hard.
I can't believe it's Tamara because Tamra would do things to
benefit Tamra and this does not benefit Tamra.
True. Unless you're just trying to
spin a narrative of if she this is how you could have the links
mate be from Tamra if you're leaking information that is
detrimental to Gretchen. If you're saying in this scene
that I shot that there was shot, although when turned on
Gretchen, they kicked her out of a car.
That is something that a Blogger would be like, oh, let's run
with. Sorry, a content creator would
run with and the press would run with of Oh well, they're
shooting. Gretchen gets ostracized by the
whole group. This little it's antsy bullshit
of she met with Katie. She ran out of New Orleans.
She fake quits very keywords. She fake quits.
It doesn't serve her so it's they it's so dumb.
Not dumb, I've it's. I don't understand why it's.
Silly. There's a lot.
Of no, no, I don't understand why Shannon and Gina and Jim are
so quick to say, well, of course Tamara's leaking information.
Look at the bigger picture about what this does and what, what
puzzle piece, what chess piece does this move?
It doesn't. Again, sometimes they're just
playing checkers though. Yeah, but it doesn't make sense.
Yeah. No, I, I, I'm not in it.
I'm not disagreeing with you there.
It just. That's why I don't believe the
leaks that came from Tamara. That I don't believe.
Could someone have sent her some fake information?
The whole, the whole Gretchen, like, you know, the folk stuff.
Yes. And she ran with that.
Yeah. But it supposedly came from I
heart, is what she says. I really need more background
about that, about a three and two.
When I went in to say, how long have you known about this?
How did you hear about it? Because I feel like this has
been going on for a while. So that's the part that still
drives me up the wall. Like Gretchen is not secretively
like, let's go down to Wii Ho and hang out with the gays.
Right, like. She's been very vocal and very
obvious about her conservatism. And this has been brought up on
Reddit for months and months and months.
Yeah, I don't know about right back a year.
I don't know the timeline, but it's not a surprise about
Gretchen's beliefs. Yeah, so.
I'm just trying to think like if we had a friend that like we,
we, we do have friends that we question, they're like, you
know, are they conservative, they liberal, like, you know,
where do they fall on, on this? Do they support us?
So like if we were to find all of a sudden one of those friends
was just like vocally, like, no, gays are bad.
Like, we knew about it and we're trying to hope for the best.
Like, could that be happening with Heather and Emmel?
You know, all of that? Like, it's got to be a tough
road to walk where you're like, I'm hoping this isn't the case,
but you find yourself there still hoping that this person
doesn't think these horrible things about us.
But then they probably do. Or they're at least friends with
horrible people that just, you know, aren't fun to be around.
Yeah, it's just the whole, like some of my best friends are
right, but it doesn't even matter if are we truly friends
if you're supporting things that don't support me.
And I think that's where Heather definitely comes down to with
this episode and. She got over it so quickly.
She felt so bad. So that car ride back to the
airport where they all felt so bad and Tamara, I think not, I
don't think I know part of Tamara was saying this sucks for
Heather. It's really sad.
But I thought this would be the nail of the coffin.
And that's why she went back to this girl's been doing this to
me for 12 years. I've been saying for so long
that she's horrible. She's not a good person.
She thought this would be the nail of the coffin, and it's
not. I might say she thought I'd be
in the old coffin. Not that she was trying to make
the nail happen. Well, she did, but she wasn't.
She wasn't creating. I don't feel like she was like
trying to hammer the nail in. She was just trying to be like,
look, what more do we need to yeah.
Show that she's a bad person and everyone.
Or that it's possible that everything she's been saying
about me is just part of her overall vadnais.
Yeah. Yeah, it just sucks.
And I think, and part of it is what, you know, we're talking
about. Like you like, don't want to
feel like these people truly do despise you or really have
something against you. But then when you think about it
or start to analyse it, it's just like, well, why?
What have they done to show me otherwise?
You know, they're not like jumping out and being like, you
know, being supportive of certain things.
They're just, they always have that weird little tickle of
like, this is just not right. So that's, again, that's where
like, I just don't feel, I feel about other podcasts we've
talked to and we've been on like they would just be very much
like, screw Gretchen, you know, like, this is awful.
Why are we even entertaining the idea that she's a good person,
right? But I think that's also what is
worth talking about with these shows.
Right, I thought walking into this, I would just say she's
guilt because I thought they, I didn't expect what happened at
the end, right? I thought it'd be just clearly
Gretchen's horrible, she liked horrible things on Instagram and
instead I'm questioning the the validity of these horrible
things and these screenshots. And now I'm also my mind is
being distracted by the leaks of it all.
So they this was not a well produced episode because.
Or was it we're talking about it they're.
Talking about it, but we're also there's not a clear narrative.
It's very messy. The show's messy, the producers
are messy. It's very muddy and murky.
What I hear you telling me this is like an Oscar film.
It's not a very clear narrative. It's it's an open ending.
What do you feel happened? It's just it's really murky.
Yeah, no, I don't. I don't like it, but at the same
time it is it's thought provoking in a way that I don't
expect from my housewives. We were just thinking too hard
about it. We've been accused of that as
well, So and like, but it's what I like about these shows.
It's what I think makes them interesting in a point is like
it's not just black and white. It's not cut and dry.
It's complicated. But at the same time, I think in
this, in my gut, in this specific case, I think that
Gretchen liked those things and I think that she I think she has
a difficult relationship with the gay community.
I just I thought you about to say the truth.
Well, and that I just think that like, you know, she wants to
condemn it because it just doesn't strike her at her at the
surface of being something she wants to support.
But I think she also understands that it's not, you know, binary
literally in the sense that, like, you know, gay people don't
equal bad. But at the same time, it's
probably something she's been fed her entire life.
I'm always, you know. Yeah, so I just, I just don't
want to defend people who I wouldn't.
Question that. We're questioning things.
I want to, I want to help people understand that like, you know,
it's not an easy situation. It's not a clear cut thing.
I also want to help people understand that like, you know,
it's stupid as it sounds. It's, it's as easy as do you
hate people? Oh, you don't.
Well, then why do you, you know, it's like it, it, it's not hard
to love somebody. Just, you know, support people,
try not to cut people down, build them up.
You know that's all it takes. No matter who they are.
Except when they're Gretchen. I think to sum up what did
because again, we keep going down the rabbit hole.
Yeah, sorry. No, it's it's no, that's what
we're thinking now that we're at the end of the season.
What did you think of the season and what are you looking forward
to with these this three-part reunion?
I like how you've gotten to become a better interview
question asker. Like these are all things that
like a year ago, you and I would not have been asking what do I
want out of the next three episodes?
I want this addressed. They won't do it.
I'm not going to convince myself otherwise.
Not to our satisfaction. Yeah, no, it's going to be very
lightly glossed over. I that's a tough question.
They're going to spend a lot of time on Ryan and Jen's whole
thing. Tamra, Jen Thing.
Right. I think there's been some time
on Shannon and you know, where she is independently and like,
you know, why she wants to support Jen's marriage so much
and that's to become a thing. Yeah.
I don't, I don't know how to answer that.
I really don't like, I think this is a very weird season, but
I'm, I think I'm too wrapped up in what happened tonight to
really answer that. I'll I'll be able to ask me that
same question start of next week before we get into the three.
It was at the end of the of the three parts.
You know what we thought about the season.
Yeah, I think it was a very up and down season.
Some filler episodes, you know, some interesting points, some
good points or moments. I would say some stronger kind
of interesting words, some strong things, some nice things,
some good things, some bad things.
True. I too.
Yeah. I guess maybe I can't
necessarily answer that question either.
I would say I'm hoping for more clarity in the reunion.
That's my I'm setting the intention for clarity and it's
already been shot, but I hope I'm hoping for.
While you were talking, I really feel I, I don't know, I feel
like they were really trying to make Tamara look vulnerable and
be vulnerable, but not in a redeeming way.
This season or just. This entire season, I feel like
a lot of the the the thread through the season has been
Tamara's a horrible person and doesn't know what to do about
it. And I don't know if they're
trying to do that like in a, it doesn't feel like they're doing
that in a positive light. Like it seems like the entire
thread was Tamara's horrible and we shouldn't like her.
Like, yeah, I mean. Which is a weird thing to do for
someone that they really hang the entire series upon.
Right. But then, but she's been cast in
the role of the villain, and so you're not.
It's interesting, somewhat related, kind of listening to to
tease and talking about the Salt Lake episodes.
Tamra talks about how she relates to Lisa so much and how
she hates her. This is a takedown season and
etcetera, etcetera, right? So I think relating it to
herself, but the only person who took down Tamra was Tamra and
her actions and her quitting and the high emotions.
And it came from a place of course, as I said before,
dealing with both the therapy and past traumas and the teddy
stuff. But she didn't.
So it's, I understand where it's coming from, but she didn't
express that in the best way and her actions weren't great.
And so no one and that the cast was just reacting to what she
was giving them and they could have given her more grace for
sure. But they weren't trying to take
her down. Unless your name is Gretchen and
your name is Jen, right? You know, Shannon may not like
Tamara, but she's not trying to take her down.
She might be petty with her for sure, but she's not.
Trying to take her Emily wasn't like trying to lift her up
either. No, but she wasn't trying to.
She, we're not nor Heather, we're trying to take her down.
Tamara was bringing herself down by her just crazy chaotic
energy, right? So it's not a fair comparison,
but I think what's going into what you're saying, yes, they've
shown her like, I'm very vulnerable, but I'm not
expressing it well and I'm being an asshole and I'm raging and
I'm spinning and I'm walking out and I'm quitting every 5
minutes. And so, you know, a one hand,
it's what they're get, what she's giving them, what they
have to work with. And on the other hand, it does
seem as if you're hanging her out to dry.
And then this last episode especially, running the bus over
her back. And forth.
You know, didn't help things so as if I'm her, I would say
watching all this, why do I keep why do I keep doing this?
Yeah, Why am I coming back? But it's just really next year's
season 20. Like, is next year going to be a
tamer of redemption season? Like, is this all to be like,
last season was bad for me, you know?
I think if it's going to be that, then she needs to grow.
And I love Tamra, but she needs to grow.
Grow a lot needs a lot of water. A lot of growth, a lot of a lot
of water, a lot of sunshine, enrich that soil.
You know, take this metaphor, wherever you will go with it,
you got to you got to do that because you know, this season
only built off of last season and then throwing whatever she
could have and Shannon and then spinning and spinning and
throwing shit at Gin and Gretchen.
So I think I for sure she needs you back in season 20.
It's just a definite, you can't lose that.
But you need to show something more, because otherwise, yes,
you can carry the show. But if you're carrying it in the
same old way you've been carrying it, you got to keep
moving. And people.
Yeah. It's not just about them moving
forward. It's about the with other
people. It's about moving forward with
yourself. Right.
And I don't think people like Tamara brings great chaos.
Yeah. But there's only so much chaos
you can watch before you're just like, OK, what does this mean?
Why and my? Eyes turns on you.
Yeah, so she needs to like bring it back to something meaningful,
if ever was anything meaningful. I don't know what she did before
she came back, but yeah, it's. So yeah, clarity and the reunion
and just I hope Andy can make sense of this.
I love that you keep trying to make sense of this episode that
we're doing, like we're all over the place.
Here, oh, it's very all over. The place and hats off to you
for like I I'm I'm embracing the chaos of this because this what
we just watched was pretty unhinged.
I feel the fact that you're like there's 1/2 hour before it got
unhinged. I'm like.
Yeah, again, you can't just focus on the last few minutes.
You know, there were actually some good moments and that are
like fun. That's also saying you're not
wrong. You're gonna have fun and the
drama you have to have the we're riding around on bicycles and
talking about real shit. And then we're we're ripping
each other's faces off. But this is like compared to
like other shows salt like Potomac, whatever.
This was mild ripping the face off, you know, And then they
felt bad ripping the face off, like with less than 24 hours
later. Yeah.
So. I think I just feel a little, I
mean, obviously because the whole thing hits close to home
and like the whole idea of, you know, someone approving or
disapproving of you know who we are as people.
Like, I don't know, like it just.
Yeah. Yeah, it made, it just brings up
the whole idea of like, how do we have a podcast about a show
where like admittedly most people are, you know, maybe not
supportive of us, you know, but I don't want to get into that
right now. But it just it's just thing to
consider. It's the only thing about for
like Bravo in general. It's ignoring certain things and
sometimes we're willing to ignore it more so than others.
I definitely pick and choose who to ignore in terms of their
beliefs outside of the show. So I don't know.
It's, it's a very complicated relationship we have with this
network and with these housewives, right?
So, and this definitely brought that to the surface because we
don't talk about things like this normally so.
Meanwhile, Liam McSweeney is feeling like, all right, yeah,
that's, you know, complication. That's a whole different thing.
It is no, but I mean it comes down to the whole idea of like.
That was they fed me alcohol to try to make me perform like a.
Bud, but that's the same situation though, where it's
it's not the same, but similar in that like, you know, we
support the ridiculous drunkenness of it all, but not
this side, you know. So there's definitely, I'm not,
I'm not saying I support the takedown of Bravo, but there's
definitely the they play both sides of things and it makes it
difficult sometimes to enjoy. You don't.
No, I wouldn't bring Leanne to it.
OK. All right.
That's a whole another level of messiness that.
Yeah. No, I agree.
It's not like. I think what you're trying to do
with the analogy, but all right, you know, housewives analogy.
Should not make analogies all right.
Should we move on? Yes.
Have we beat this to death yet? For sure we have.
All right, so we'll talk about it next time.
Till next time, OK?