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Welcome to Vancouver True Crime.
My name is Mark. 

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I am the host of the show and a 
very special guest narcissist 

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Survivor he did a show on 
love-bombing and it's been a 

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little while since we did a 
show. 

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But here, we're back together 
again. 

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Hey, Mark, thanks for having me 
back, I'm good, I'm good. 

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I'm going to be talking about, 
maybe the atom each situation. 

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Yeah, just how that ties into 
narcissism. 

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And a lot of these cases like we
talked about it, someone that 

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infant. 
Rates of community and cause 

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they want the respectability. 
They want to be seen as a 

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helper. 
A good guy, you know, the 

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mile-long resume, the all the 
wonderful things they do, but 

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then behind closed doors, they 
turn out to be in the future, 

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you know, there's so many cases 
that across different 

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organizations, right? 
And it's unfortunate because 

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most organizations should have 
something in place, you know. 

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Specially, we're talking about 
this, Adam a so for listeners of

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I've been working on On a 
podcast for survivors, who are 

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going through recovery? 
Who experience of use out of 

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hands of a person. 
That's a personal trainer will 

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call Madam H4. 
Now, you go to my Instagram 

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page, you'll see some posts I 
made about them. 

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From what I know now is that New
Westminster police have charged 

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them with 10 counts of sexual 
assault. 

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His abuse seems have been 
ongoing since the early 2010 and

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to present day. 
Wow. 

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Yeah, it's a lot of victims. 
I talked to one lady, she 

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believes that there is a 
possibility that the victims 

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could be in the hundreds also to
on the male side, a guy actually

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sent me a message yesterday and 
this is very important platforms

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about, you know, stopping Abused
women, men and children. 

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He made a made a point. 
He says, a lot of men were 

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victimized from because they 
were just as vulnerable and then

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he would Power Trip. 
They make one mistake and then 

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he throw them out. 
But if they were a woman old to 

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give them I want you to give 
them a chance as long as they 

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hit something sexual favor from 
his as what they allege. 

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Yeah. 
So, you know, it's shocking and 

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it's terrible, how someone in a 
position of trust can abused up 

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for about like the time I'm 
interviewing more people in 

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anyone listening knows about the
situation. 

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Please contact me. 
I want to hear your testimony in

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and understand the experiences 
you've been through. 

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I want to say that recovery is a
very important Anything and dear

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to my heart. 
I went through the Vancouver day

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talks clinic and low 2000 or 
early 2000s. 

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When I used to binge drink do 
stupid things and it was 

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affected my life and back to my 
relationships and it helped me 

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very much. 
And so, when you're going 

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through recovery, when you make 
that choice to take those steps 

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to clean up the sobriety, you 
need a fighting chance. 

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So at that time when someone 
abusing you can could be very 

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dangerous and they could Prevent
you from wanting to get help, 

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which condemns you into a 
dangerous situation, which its 

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allege that this has happened. 
And absolutely. 

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Yeah, wow. 
It was a personal trainer is all

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about health, he ingratiated 
himself, he develops tries to 

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develop a personal relationship.
There's a power Dynamic due to 

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age due to his, maybe his 
financial background. 

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Yes, yes, yes, yes. 
And then the person who's 

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getting help in rebuilding their
lives right there. 

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A ground, zero rebuilding 
everything. 

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I mean, the first thing that 
jumps out at me honestly with 

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this story is a couple things 
jump out, but who thinks it's a 

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good idea to put male figures in
charge of vulnerable. 

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Female population. 
Yeah, you know, start with that,

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who thought that was a good 
idea? 

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You know. 
No, no offense to males 

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anywhere, but when you're in 
recovery, when you are in such a

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vulnerable Horrible place. 
These guys are predators 

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narcissus, Psychopaths, 
sociopaths they are predators. 

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They prey on vulnerable people. 
And you, if you are a shark, 

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you're going to go where, where 
there's blood in the water. 

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Yeah. 
I think, you know, the place is 

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to Target. 
You know. 

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The people that are going to be 
the most easy to Target and here

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you are, you're in charge of a 
whole. 

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We have a continuous. 
Cool. 

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Yeah owner all people that you 
can victimized. 

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So for my understanding, there's
okay, there's two organizations 

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that are connected to each other
up. 

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Like there's New Westminister 
house has been around for 40 

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years and again I don't want to 
Discount the good work. 

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Saving they have done good work 
and then there's the last door. 

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I believe that Adam was more 
Affiliated. 

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The last or the newest miss our 
house is Women only and then the

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last door is as males, right? 
But they have cross. 

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Yeah, they do integrated 
Community stuff, meetings. 

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That sort of thing. 
He was a personal trainer, so he

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was known old, he's a personal 
trainer. 

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He works with the last or he was
very parently, very aggressive 

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on social media. 
He got your number or your 

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social media that he'd send you 
lots of tax. 

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And so again, you know, here at,
You Know, You're vulnerable 

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woman this dies And interesting.
You everyone saying he's a safe 

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person. 
He has ties to the the higher up

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people that are in charge, he 
brings in lots of money and 

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donations. 
So we had a lot of clout in that

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Community for my what my 
understanding is. 

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And then he would find a way to 
get a loan with a girl or 

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providing them apartments, 
right? 

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That's where the Power Trip came
in. 

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And for my understanding telling
me sort of the story of what 

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happened and I mean that's 
that's a common tactic for For 

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these deadly predators to. 
You literally ingratiate 

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yourself into these places are 
organizations or whatever make 

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yourself appear trustworthy, you
know you're very helpful, all of

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those things and for me those 
things set off alarm Bells. 

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But for most people who have not
experienced narcissist or 

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narcissism are or any of the 
above these other types of 

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sociopaths and predators. 
You know, you're thinking oh 

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wow, this is great, he's a great
guy, he's doing all the things, 

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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and
and for your average person, you

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know, these are all great things
when you list them out like that

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they're graded. 
Wonderful. 

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Yeah. 
But again, correlate that to the

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stories that you hear about 
other types of similar 

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situations and predators, 
whether that be in religious 

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areas or it's bringing the yoga 
community. 

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Unity to - yeah, Bikram Yoga guy
not to shit. 

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Talk anybody or you know to be 
down on all men or anything like

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that, but I always say, you 
know, women when they're in 

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vulnerable positions should be 
seeking out other women. 

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Yes. 
So instead of you get into that 

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danger zone, following sort of 
these gurus. 

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You have this guy's giving a 
little big Guru Vibes being at, 

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you know, giving back room 
Vibes. 

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He's a personal trainer and that
and I mean, just have women's 

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support women. 
I told there any sort of stand 

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on their own again and, and be 
able to differentiate, you know,

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between someone who wants to 
prey on you and somebody, it's 

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important to work on yourself. 
You got almost being very 

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selfish in your self development
and it's not the time to have a 

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relationship or pursue a 
relationship. 

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And ship because at all. 
Yeah you know that was that was 

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very stressed for me when I when
I went through it actually went 

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through twice in the 
organization. 

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I was relationships are really 
frowned upon because I only have

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time to pursue a relationship. 
This is for you. 

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It's to get new life skills. 
Get new abilities to survive the

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world, because drugs, Temptation
alcohol, stressors, all those 

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things don't go away in life, 
right? 

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We just have to learn better 
ways of coping mechanisms and 

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how to navigate Our complex very
stressful world. 

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We live in. 
Yeah, terrible. 

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That the damage that he could 
have done and have done 

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potentially. 
We're looking at a large pool of

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victims, and I asked to some of 
these women because they were so

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vulnerable. 
Do you believe that they might 

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have relapsed? 
Because of the experiences and 

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things they said, yes, many 
people said yes. 

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And some of them because of that
relapse, have died because how 

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dangerous I was thinking that. 
Yeah, it's It's murder really? 

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Yes, look at it that way. 
You know what I mean, you're 

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going to take somebody and 
you're going to crush some you 

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know it correlates to any type 
of domestic violence, you're 

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going to take somebody and break
them down and Crush their Spirit

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to an extent that death or 
relapse, or even taking your own

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life becomes a viable options. 
As I said, the stories and 

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again, we're going, I'm going to
make a podcast with the victim. 

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We're going to get more deeper 
in this. 

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I thought it'd be great. 
To talk about with you because 

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these types of abuse crossover 
and I even asked pulled asking 

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people's opinions who had 
interactions. 

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Do you believe he's on the 
nurses scale and they said oh 

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absolutely fucking checks all 
the boxes back in the day. 

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You know, when I used to hear 
the word narcissus I would say a

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tribute that to a person that 
was arrogant kind of pompous and

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that's not necessarily the case.
So maybe it was talk of the 

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different types of viruses, the 
different spectrums of them and 

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some people say, well, you know,
Nobody's a little bit 

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narcissistic and whatnot. 
And I mean again narcissism 

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sound of spectrum. 
So you can have someone that is 

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high in narcissistic traits. 
Let's say, and I mean, everybody

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thinks of Kim Kardashian was use
that as an example. 

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So you can have somebody that's,
you know, highly narcissistic, 

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they're really into themselves 
Etc. 

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They don't have the full-blown 
narcissistic personality 

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disorder, right? 
I like to say that somebody who 

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is highly narcissistic can 
change with time, and usually 

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with something when something 
traumatic happens to them in 

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life, you know, like some type 
of a near-death experience, 

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let's just say and they can sort
of have some type of epiphany 

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but that's that's very rare. 
It doesn't always happen. 

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So I tend not to mention that 
because it can give people false

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hope. 
Hope right. 

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You know so you know when you're
and we're going to be talking 

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about trauma bonds later, but 
when you developed a trauma bond

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with somebody, it's very hard to
accept that they are abusive. 

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They are a narcissist. 
They're not good for you. 

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You just want this person to 
change and love to do and be the

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person that they were when they 
were love-bombing you in the 

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very beginning but this is the 
same story whether you're just I

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don't want to say just but 
whether you're with an Our or 

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narcissist, right? 
It's very hard for even. 

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Just a run-of-the-mill abusive 
partner to change. 

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Yes. 
It's exponentially harder for 

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somebody that's high in 
narcissistic traits to change. 

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It's like a double, give a 
double whammy. 

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Now it generally speaking when I
witnessed, or even myself and 

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not nesting in romantic 
relationship, with Justin 

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relationships, even work, 
relationship of all. 

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Boss. 
That's an ogre you do adapt to 

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their level of abuse, even 
myself, right? 

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You know. 
Like, for example, I had a boss 

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in this Vicki early, early days,
when I stood Us in the stock 

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market industry, this guy was 
not to probably doing coke and 

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booze all night. 
He would fly off the handle over

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the littlest thing. 
Throw those empty 8, m cooler, 

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water bottles. 
Getting someone asks you a 

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question. 
You just go not to grab it. 

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Smash game for wall. 
This, your inferior nature. 

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Over 80 spray to be asking the 
wrong question might and I 

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couldn't imagine what it would 
be like to be in relation to the

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guy like that because he was 
married but even though you were

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very faithful but I couldn't 
imagine like cuz it's almost 

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like it is very effective tool 
to use very subtle and over 

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terrorism on people, right? 
Looking say that to me. 

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Oh my God. 
I'm gonna freak out and start 

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smashing stuff and it's all your
fault. 

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Could you set me off? 
So therefore, you don't want to 

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set them off, right? 
So you start changing your 

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behavior night? 
These circumstances tiptoeing 

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talk in a soft. 
What is it about? 

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The are ready to apologize 
immediately being in a personal 

227
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,200
issue with someone like that 
especially behind closed doors 

228
00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:12,300
how quickly it could lead to 
abuse hard to explain it to 

229
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:14,900
people outside of it. 
And then people course we're not

230
00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:18,200
in the situation, have a very 
black and white view saying, oh,

231
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,800
we should just leave them. 
Why don't you just leave? 

232
00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:24,200
Yeah. 
Okay, so let's break down this, 

233
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,700
the conditioning that you get 
Verbal abuse in almost like 

234
00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:28,300
that. 
What's that? 

235
00:13:28,300 --> 00:13:32,200
Famous Russian experiment, the 
dogs, pow below the powder. 

236
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,600
Yeah, you get condition. 
And then why is it hard for 

237
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,500
someone to First realize and 
then get out king that we talked

238
00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:42,900
about on here? 
I always recommend that if 

239
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:45,700
people are curious about 
something or whatever, just get 

240
00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:50,000
on Google, the the story of 
Pavlov's dogs is fascinating and

241
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,400
reading about, that is really, 
really relates to what we're 

242
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,600
talking about. 
So, I mean, basically, what 

243
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,300
happened Ins when you're with 
somebody like that. 

244
00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:01,200
And if you are walking on 
eggshells, there's a there's a 

245
00:14:01,208 --> 00:14:05,100
hundred percent chance that you 
are being abused in some way. 

246
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:10,200
Whether that's probably mentally
emotionally abuse does not mean 

247
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,700
that somebody is beating the 
shit out of you every day, 

248
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,300
right? 
Way more subtle than that and it

249
00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:20,400
starts off again on a spectrum 
abuse starts. 

250
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,000
Very subtly, it starts with the 
love-bombing phase and it 

251
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,200
escalates over time. 
We'll eventually usually get 

252
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,100
physical unless you leave 
sooner. 

253
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:35,900
As you know, doing what you do. 
It's sometimes escalates to the 

254
00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:38,800
point of murder. 
Yes, the way we develop a trauma

255
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,500
Bond. 
You want to touch on that for 

256
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:44,900
sure. 
So, you start off obviously, you

257
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:48,200
don't start off and the guy 
takes you out on a first date 

258
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,900
and punches you in the face. 
And you're like, oh yeah. 

259
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,000
Wait, you know, I think I'll go 
out on date number two, out. 

260
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,600
Sure, that it always starts with
a love-bombing. 

261
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:04,900
So when somebody is really 
Charming, they're really going 

262
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:08,500
to town with you. 
At the beginning, they love you 

263
00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:11,300
really quickly or they want to 
move in with you. 

264
00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:14,100
These are kind of extreme 
examples but they do happen 

265
00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:19,000
frequently given showering, you 
with gifts, attention texting, 

266
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,600
you all the time, calling all 
that stuff. 

267
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,700
Oh, so you think. 
Wow, this person is great. 

268
00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:28,300
I love being treated this way. 
This has never happened before. 

269
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:32,700
He must really be into me and 
blah blah, blah. 

270
00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:36,400
So okay. 
Great love-bombing is designed 

271
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:40,600
to have you fall in love quick 
and it's also meant to have you 

272
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,300
blow by the red flags that you 
are noticing her happening, so 

273
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,600
fast that your bed that they 
just end up in there in the 

274
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,500
rearview mirror. 
Yeah, I spent training so to 

275
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:53,800
speak. 
Hundred percent things that 

276
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:58,700
start to shift and change. 
And usually, these guys do 

277
00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:03,100
something called intermittent 
reinforcement, which is pretty 

278
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:08,000
self-explanatory. 
But on, and off, hot and cold, 

279
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:13,100
polar, any if you're using any 
of those things to describe your

280
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:17,900
relationship, that's that's 
what's going on that leads into 

281
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:21,500
the cycle of abuse, which is 
I'll break that down in two 

282
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:23,900
ways. 
It's cycle of abuse that usually

283
00:16:23,900 --> 00:16:27,900
use that for run-of-the-mill 
abusers, right? 

284
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:31,000
Not not narcissist necessarily 
but it applies. 

285
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,200
So it starts with love-bombing 
or the honeymoon phase is also 

286
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,800
called, then it goes into. 
You always know when it's the 

287
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,100
walking on eggshells start, 
right? 

288
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,400
And that's called tension 
building because it is you use 

289
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,300
sort of sense a bit of a shift 
and you don't want to piss this 

290
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,000
person. 
You know what I mean? 

291
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,700
So you are literally walking on 
eggshells. 

292
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:59,100
You're just waiting waiting for 
the things to happen. 

293
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,800
And the thing does happen, then 
they call that stage, the 

294
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,400
explosion stage like you 
described with your boss. 

295
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:13,800
Yeah, freak out, freak out right
stuff, it might get physical at 

296
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,000
that point, punching holes in 
the drywall and then it goes 

297
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,400
into and picture. 
This is a big surprise All 

298
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,800
right, so and then it goes into 
the ghosting phase or the silent

299
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,600
things just, you know, like the 
it's like the calm after the 

300
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:37,400
storm type of thing which it is.
And then it starts back up at 

301
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,400
the top of the wheel, back up at
the love-bombing stage. 

302
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,300
So after you've gone through 
this intense, emotional 

303
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:52,000
situation, with this person here
in terrible, your wailing, it is

304
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,000
Like a rollercoaster ride and 
you desperately want to get back

305
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,300
to the feeling good times and 
they do it. 

306
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:01,300
This is when the person is 
remorseful, I'm so sorry. 

307
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:04,900
Oh my God, here's some flowers. 
I love you so much never happen 

308
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,400
again. 
And before, you know it, you've 

309
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,600
done that whole circle again and
this can repeat and repeat and 

310
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,900
repeat for years and years and 
years. 

311
00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:17,400
And that's how people get stuck.
Yeah. 

312
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:21,700
In these cycles of abuse. 
You really becoming Changed by 

313
00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:24,100
the the circumstance. 
Us. 

314
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,300
And you do, you will have your 
first time become Changed by it.

315
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:31,300
And when you get accustomed to 
living in that cycle about way, 

316
00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:35,300
with the walking on eggshells 
and I used to describe it as, 

317
00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:38,000
like, sort of throwing all my 
love's like, Oreo. 

318
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:42,100
My love is like a black hole and
when you're in that tension, 

319
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:48,000
building phase you are doing 
absolutely everything to appease

320
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,600
this person, whether that be 
cooking the dinners that they 

321
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,800
like doing. 
You know what I mean? 

322
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:58,100
Mean doing sexual things that 
you don't feel comfortable with.

323
00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:04,100
That's very common, just to 
appease, this person, you do 

324
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:08,300
become your living in the fear, 
a lot of the time, most of the 

325
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:12,600
time walking on eggshells is, is
the number one indirect 

326
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,100
indicator. 
Like I said, that you are in 

327
00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:19,800
some type of ongoing abusive 
situation. 

328
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,100
But because of the way, the 
cycle works and that you Circle 

329
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:28,600
back to the So the love-bombing 
phase every time you think, oh 

330
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,100
my God, maybe this time it'll 
stick maybe this time. 

331
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:34,100
They mean that maybe they won't 
do it again. 

332
00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:37,900
Maybe they really are story and 
often, you know, that's the 

333
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:40,500
point where counseling will be 
offered. 

334
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:43,000
Oh, we'll go to counseling. 
Well, go to counseling, I'll go 

335
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,200
to counseling and a lot of times
that's just offered so that you 

336
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:54,300
will stay in the relationship. 
The, the pendulum of Vomit, 

337
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,100
izing belittling and then 
affection. 

338
00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:59,200
Oh, I didn't mean that I had a 
bad day. 

339
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,000
Oh, you're so crazy. 
If you won't did this, the 

340
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,400
everything would be not to be 
like the the back and forth, 

341
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,400
right? 
So, one of the things that quite

342
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,000
common from being in a nurse's 
they, or an abusive type of 

343
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,200
relationship is post-traumatic 
stress. 

344
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:17,900
Yes, baby. 
Talk about what is 

345
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:21,400
post-traumatic stress? 
Well, what I will say, maybe 

346
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,800
I'll just preface that with 
earlier I was Going to break 

347
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,500
down the cycle of abuse into two
versions. 

348
00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:34,000
The one who got abusers, use and
the one that specifically sort 

349
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,700
of narcissus related and that's 
the idealized devalue and 

350
00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:42,500
discard right and probably hit 
home for a lot of people and 

351
00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:45,100
that that relates to what we're 
going to talk about next. 

352
00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:50,000
Because when you're constantly 
being devalued and you did touch

353
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,600
on that too, you know, you're so
stupid, you're fat. 

354
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,000
Nobody Buddy will want you. 
Nobody will love the way that I 

355
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,700
do. 
And that's more of a 

356
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:04,500
psychological tool, right? 
It's emotional abuse. 

357
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:10,700
You know, you are really tanking
that person's self-esteem. 

358
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:18,500
Yeah, so that they won't have 
the strength to leave you and I 

359
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:22,500
would encourage people to look 
up and usually, it's not 

360
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:28,200
recognized and The DSM, which is
the, you know, the manual of the

361
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,400
diagnostic and statistical 
Manual of disorders where you 

362
00:21:32,408 --> 00:21:34,200
find narcissism and all these 
things. 

363
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:39,200
So they have not yet included 
complex PTSD. 

364
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,100
There's a large contingent of 
people that are trying to get 

365
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:47,500
that included because it's not 
PTSD is usually something that 

366
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:50,700
is incident specific. 
So in other words, it's 

367
00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:54,600
something that, you know, like a
car accident claim, Crush this 

368
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,600
one traumatic incident that 
you've been through war that 

369
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:03,400
causes just this deep trauma. 
But when it's constant and 

370
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,200
consistent over time, all these 
small injuries, it's called 

371
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,100
complex PTSD. 
And that's usually what drivers 

372
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:15,300
experience and you are 
traumatized. 

373
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:17,800
Yeah, it's drama. 
Its deep trauma. 

374
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,800
Some, some psychologists and 
psychiatrists are starting to 

375
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:27,300
use that despite Despite its not
being included yet, but, but it 

376
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:30,400
is absolutely valid. 
And if you think you might be 

377
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,000
experiencing, this level of 
trauma. 

378
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,100
Absolutely, Google that. 
And, and look up the symptoms. 

379
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:42,200
This is something that many many
survivors of domestic violence 

380
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,700
and narcissistic abuse 
experience the reek of the 

381
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:49,500
narcissistic abuse leads to 
self-doubt erosion of 

382
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:52,400
self-esteem. 
But then, at the same time, they

383
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,300
become attached to Ooh, the 
person that's causing. 

384
00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:58,600
So this is the phenomena that 
that is very destructive and 

385
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,400
this is why it's cycle. 
That's very difficult to break 

386
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,700
out of and then if you overlap 
that with finances, like you're 

387
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,500
living with the person you share
Fleet maybe a children with 

388
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:10,700
them. 
Maybe there's an overlining 

389
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:15,100
substance, abuse problem, 
alcohol pills or drugs. 

390
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,900
Then it gets even more like you 
will sink into the quicksand so 

391
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:22,300
to speak even more because it's 
not just dealing with the 

392
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,000
ongoing abuse but now Deal with 
all the other problems that that

393
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,100
have occurred for being a 
relationship with this person. 

394
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,200
Exactly. 
And and they will isolate you 

395
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,200
from your friends and family, 
they will financially abused. 

396
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,100
You Financial abuse is a thing, 
it can be anything from them, 

397
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,800
taking out Credit, in your name,
using your car, and your 

398
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,900
insurance, moving into your 
place anywhere, all the way up 

399
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:53,000
to preventing you from working 
or forcing you to work, you 

400
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,100
know, it's Financial abuse is 
very common in these types of 

401
00:23:57,100 --> 00:24:00,000
situations, so that makes it 
doubly hard to leave. 

402
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,800
Especially in Vancouver. 
I mean yes when a one-bedroom 

403
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,300
apartment costs, you know, two 
grand plus right? 

404
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,000
It isn't it is insane and the 
housing crisis is not helping 

405
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:14,400
people in situations where they 
are experiencing violence. 

406
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,300
There's just no, there's no 
social safety net. 

407
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:21,900
There's no there's no housing 
for people and honestly if your 

408
00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:25,800
choice is staying at home or 
going To a shelter somewhere. 

409
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:27,800
I mean, come on. 
What are you going to? 

410
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,700
Pick course, you know, it and 
that's a scary thing, right? 

411
00:24:30,700 --> 00:24:33,200
Going to Emergency Shelters, 
have no idea what you're getting

412
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,000
yourself and you're doing. 
You're stepping out in the abyss

413
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,100
and the unknown, and as bad as 
it sounds, at least, you know 

414
00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:42,100
what you're what you're getting 
into. 

415
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:45,300
If you continue going home, 
okay, maybe it'll be cool today.

416
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,900
You know, I mean, you've usually
worked out some way of 

417
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:51,400
coexisting in that abusive 
relationship. 

418
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,100
So to cut that off, completely 
and going Ooh, the absolutely 

419
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,000
new environments even unknown, 
which may be in some cases, you 

420
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,000
should because it's getting to 
that point where violence is 

421
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,800
escalating and and it might 
actually save your life, right? 

422
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,600
So, yeah, every time. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

423
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:12,300
Yeah. 
You know, a lot of the shelters 

424
00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:15,300
are quite good. 
I do have to say that but the 

425
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:20,600
spaces are very limited and 
there's just, there's just not a

426
00:25:20,608 --> 00:25:25,300
lot of options and especially if
you have You know, kids and you 

427
00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:29,400
have supposed to leave your 
pets, taking people having pets 

428
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,000
now, or having a hell of a time.
Getting place is just for having

429
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,800
a dog or a cat is getting hard. 
Yeah, exactly. 

430
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,700
Speaking of pets there was, I 
think it was last year there was

431
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,400
it was it made it to the news, 
the news cycle and a woman had 

432
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,100
had her two small dogs. 
Murdered, you remember that? 

433
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,300
Yeah, I kind of remember that. 
I said to myself that is 

434
00:25:53,800 --> 00:26:02,300
Violence and terrorism to. 
Well, they will kill your packs.

435
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:04,500
They will threaten to kill your 
pets. 

436
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:10,100
So leaving your pets and leaving
yourself and leaving your pets 

437
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:12,200
with the abuser. 
It's good. 

438
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,700
I get a lot of beams from, you 
know, people and bad situations.

439
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:20,400
I'm a very distressing because 
it's like, you want to build a 

440
00:26:20,408 --> 00:26:23,500
help them to the, I try my best 
to send people resources on. 

441
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,500
Stuff but as you know, the 
resources are pretty, you know, 

442
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,100
are used up. 
Yeah and I was talking to a 

443
00:26:30,108 --> 00:26:34,900
woman recently who's actually in
a relationship with a very in a 

444
00:26:34,908 --> 00:26:38,800
very bad situation and just like
what you were talking about, 

445
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:43,400
they're actually looking to get 
divorced and, and there in that 

446
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,000
separation stays but because she
has literally nowhere to go for.

447
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,300
So living under the same roof 
with her. 

448
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:53,500
Separated were a, could be 
potentially dangerous. 

449
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:57,000
When you're standing up for the 
person saying, hey, I'm leaving,

450
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,000
but we have nowhere to go. 
So, I'm here for a few months, 

451
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,900
so, you're on the ultimate 
shells. 

452
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:04,200
Now, and it could be quite 
critical. 

453
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,000
And I hear that, and to that, I 
say, like, even the whore, 

454
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,500
anybody listening, even before 
you get to that point of having 

455
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:15,400
that conversation, do some 
Escape planning, you know, get 

456
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,300
your paperwork and jewelry your 
important stuff, photographs out

457
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:22,900
of the house, if you do have 
friends or family, even if 

458
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:26,300
you've been separated, Operated 
over miles or, you know, 

459
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:29,300
continents, even reach out to 
people. 

460
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:33,300
People are willing to help if 
you are in trouble for the most 

461
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:37,600
part. 
See if you can sort yourself 

462
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,100
somewhere to stay like the day 
that you leave. 

463
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:43,900
If you have to pack your bag and
just leave, do you have 

464
00:27:43,900 --> 00:27:46,100
somewhere to go is all your 
stuff. 

465
00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:49,400
You have a go bag, you know, 
like that, like, do anything 

466
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,400
that you possibly can so that 
you can get out safely. 

467
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:57,000
Yes, and and that's called a 
skate planning. 

468
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,600
And sometimes that takes months,
or, or even longer just putting 

469
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,000
all your ducks in a row, need to
call home and say, hey, I need 

470
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:14,500
you to buy me a bus ticket, do 
do that sometimes you got to do 

471
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:18,600
what you got to do to survive 
and yeah, and that's what it 

472
00:28:18,608 --> 00:28:22,900
comes down to. 
So to just to recap the trauma 

473
00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:24,700
bonding, right? 
Right, so, this is what I wrote 

474
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:27,200
for are some notes for those 
into research, for the show. 

475
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,600
So, this is what the definition 
of trauma bond that I, that I so

476
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,100
says, trauma bonding as a 
psychological phenomenon, that 

477
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:36,700
occurs, when the victim becomes 
emotionally attached to the 

478
00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:41,000
abuser as a result of repeated 
cycles of abuse and affection. 

479
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,200
This bond is created, as a 
result of the users manipulative

480
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,300
tactics such as interventive 
reinforcement, which you 

481
00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:50,900
mentioned right? 
Yeah gasps. 

482
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:55,600
Yeah and other forms of 
Emotional manipulation and of 

483
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,500
trauma, bonding relationship the
victim becomes dependent on the 

484
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:04,600
abuser for emotional support. 
Validation, despite the abuse, 

485
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,500
they endure, the victim May 
begin to rationalize the abuser 

486
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:14,400
behavior and believe that 
they're the only person that who

487
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,200
can meet their needs. 
This creates a cycle of abuse 

488
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,100
and affection that you difficult
for victims of break. 

489
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:23,400
As we become emotionally 
attached to their abuser. 

490
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,900
ER, So that's pretty good and 
saying that when you think about

491
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:30,400
on paper eraser, this person 
that's doing this, all this to 

492
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,400
you, you become more attached 
them as a more of using. 

493
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,300
This is why its first important 
to recognize that usin that is 

494
00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:40,300
happening to you, you have to 
come to grips to it because you 

495
00:29:40,308 --> 00:29:42,900
don't want to think your abuse, 
who wants to think of themselves

496
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:45,600
as a victim. 
You know, even myself. 

497
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,600
Like I was like, is this abuse? 
I know. 

498
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,100
It didn't feel good. 
I know I felt like shit. 

499
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:57,000
I was walking on eggshells. 
See, you know, but I thought to 

500
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,800
myself god, well, it's not like 
he, you know, beats me up every 

501
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,800
day, and many people think this 
still to this day. 

502
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,200
That I mean, domestic violence 
the way. 

503
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,700
It sounds sure. 
You know, he gave me that idea 

504
00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:18,500
that it's always violent, but a 
lot of people are calling it 

505
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:22,100
intimate, partner violence now. 
And that sort of things to cover

506
00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:25,700
a lot more. 
It's Literally, all the stuff 

507
00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:28,900
that we talked about today. 
Emotional abuse, you know, 

508
00:30:28,900 --> 00:30:31,500
sexual abuse reproductive 
portion. 

509
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:35,100
There's, there's a thing going 
on now called stealthing. 

510
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:37,700
Were you just take off the 
condom? 

511
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,300
Oh yeah, really like Jesus 
Christ, you know. 

512
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:51,300
It's abuse is so much more than 
just as akal violence. 

513
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,800
So if you, you know, anybody 
listening, if you are constantly

514
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,400
being put down, if you're 
walking on eggshells, if someone

515
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,400
screaming in your face, if they,
if they block your exit like 

516
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,900
you, they don't let you leave 
same trap you in a room like all

517
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:12,200
of these things. 
Are we remember that movie? 

518
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,500
I kind of remember movie, The 
Hedge, a low She's married to 

519
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:18,500
that guy and then she learns how
to fight chance of beating the 

520
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:19,900
crap out of them. 
Who's like this? 

521
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:22,900
Really horrible abuser, not 
Begley. 

522
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,500
Yeah. 
So but God is like that is what 

523
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:30,200
people think when they think of 
like a domestic violence, like a

524
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,600
monster, where's my dinner? 
And then also in the belt comes 

525
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,700
out, you know, course, there are
idiots like that and then they 

526
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:38,700
should. 
Hopefully, they will be in jail 

527
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:42,200
as quickly as possible because 
they really step over the line. 

528
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,500
But most people where someone, 
Does that you owe call 911? 

529
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:49,100
You know, it's almost like an 
instant cause and effect 

530
00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:52,300
reaction but no one's going to 
call the cops if someone's just 

531
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:56,400
gas lighting or and and 
gaslighting you over years and 

532
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,100
years. 
And now he find yourself in 

533
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,500
depression and anxiety of 
underlying health issues. 

534
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:03,700
You wonder why? 
Hey, why am I feeling like this?

535
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:06,000
I go south with my strength. 
I killed. 

536
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,300
My self worth is down the 
analogy right there sharks. 

537
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:13,100
Like the guy of the bounties of 
shark, he's just going to take a

538
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:15,700
big bite out of you and then 
There's like the nibblers a 

539
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:18,100
little piranhas that just 
nibbled at their just of 

540
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,300
effective and it will eat away 
at you. 

541
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:23,200
Oh my god. 
Narcissistic abuse is almost 

542
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,200
like death wife. 
About that stocks. 

543
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,900
Yeah because the chip away at 
you a little bit all the time 

544
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:36,000
byte by byte so absolutely does 
and gaslighting we didn't touch 

545
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,700
on that gas. 
Lighting is definitely part of 

546
00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:43,300
that cycle as well and it's a 
very very effective tool 

547
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,400
psychological abuse. 
Yes will be this breakdown 

548
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,400
gaslighting quickly. 
Then we'll do a show just on 

549
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,500
guessing. 
It's such a rich and complex 

550
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:56,700
topic and so yeah. 
And it comes from that Alfred 

551
00:32:56,700 --> 00:33:00,000
Hitchcock movie. 
Yes, I'd like in the 60s. 

552
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,000
I think it was gas, light, and 
drove his wife crazy. 

553
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,700
Yes, gaslighting. 
And there are some I have heard 

554
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:15,100
of this story more than enough 
times where well literally move 

555
00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:18,700
things you know like you know 
your wife comes home with her 

556
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:23,200
purse on the side and then he'll
take a little bit somewhere else

557
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,200
and literally out. 
Solutely drive her crazy and 

558
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:33,300
that that's the extreme kind of 
guy spider car keys, while 

559
00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:35,500
they're in her pocket. 
She's going crazy looking for 

560
00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:36,900
him yet but there's also a 
lawyer. 

561
00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:39,800
They are saying, you know? 
Yeah, look at her, she she 

562
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,100
really is crazy. 
And he has done that, and that 

563
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:46,700
is its more common than you 
would even think. 

564
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:48,400
Oh, I've heard that's all kinds 
of sick. 

565
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,400
They so here, this for the 
listeners, never maybe, never 

566
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,200
heard of gosling before. 
So here's a description of 

567
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,800
gasoline. 
So gaslighting, this is a form 

568
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,100
of emotional abuse in which the 
narcissistic partner 

569
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:04,000
manipulates, the other person's 
perception of reality, causing 

570
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,900
them to doubt their own sanity 
or memory verbal abuse is. 

571
00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:11,600
This is a form of abuse that the
nurses partner uses words to 

572
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,300
hurt the little being, the 
partner. 

573
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:17,100
And, of course, emotional abuse,
where the form of abuse with the

574
00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:21,900
nurses Barbara use emotional 
manipulation to control their 

575
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,100
Partners Behavior. 
So, what I read, all them these 

576
00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:27,600
are like Ain't Optics and this 
is what I've noticed and that 

577
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,000
eyewitness is that is not 
usually this one type of talk 

578
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,100
that, it's usually multiple 
atactic Snappy. 

579
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:37,300
I didn't say that. 
You must have heard that wrong. 

580
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,400
I didn't do that. 
What are you talking about? 

581
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:44,100
And an, even when you present, 
and this is going to resonate 

582
00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:48,800
with people, even when you 
present the person with physical

583
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,300
evidence, like, like a text or a
pitcher, for example, you know, 

584
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:55,400
like, oh, I never slept with 
Her. 

585
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,500
Yeah. 
And, and have a picture of them 

586
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,100
naked in bed together. 
That's Photoshop. 

587
00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:01,800
Somebody's trying to set me up, 
you know. 

588
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:06,100
That is it, that is how extreme 
gaslighting once they admit that

589
00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:09,000
they slept, welcome, why are you
making such a big deal out of 

590
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,500
it? 
Or they will pull the victim 

591
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:17,100
card out and blame you because 
you're so frigid and do the 

592
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:20,800
things I like? 
Yes, what I went, this is like 

593
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:26,100
that come up with the master, 
ability to one Take any 

594
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:29,000
accountability for their 
actions, they can worm their way

595
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,400
out of any actions. 
They've done manipulate lie, 

596
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:36,900
just to make them sound better 
but then it's always the other 

597
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:39,100
person's fault. 
If they don't do this, they 

598
00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:41,200
shouldn't do that. 
Well they do nothing right. 

599
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,200
Yeah, which I this is the for 
persuade, this is what I find it

600
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,500
infuriating. 
Some of the top tips that I use 

601
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:51,100
personally when I've been in 
these types of relationships, I 

602
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:55,500
simply got to the point where I 
recorded every single 

603
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:58,600
conversation I would have. 
So then when the argument was 

604
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,000
inevitable and they would deny 
it, I would just simply play it 

605
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,100
for them. 
And then chorus, although you're

606
00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:07,800
recording me though. 
And then you just, I got tired 

607
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,800
of playing. 
Oh, you said this, I said that 

608
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,000
because it's inferior, because I
tend to be a blunt individual. 

609
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,900
I'm not bullshit type of person,
I usually, and usually, I'm 

610
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:20,500
pretty outspoken with something 
bothers me is with, and I found 

611
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:24,000
with these types of people on 
this spectrum, is sometimes the 

612
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,500
worst thing you can do. 100% And
probably what you're getting 

613
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:32,900
after is gray rock. 
Yes, a lot of people recommend 

614
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:38,200
gray rock method which basically
means you become very Bland, you

615
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,700
don't talk back, you don't have 
your strong opinions you. 

616
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:46,400
You literally become sort of 
like, like a, like a grey rock 

617
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:51,200
on enforced in the hopes of the 
narcissist won't bore them to 

618
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,100
death, right? 
But the problem with grey with 

619
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:58,700
grey Rock and I don't recommend 
it is because it's sometimes in 

620
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:01,800
the short term, you know, while 
your Escape planning. 

621
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,100
Sure. 
Yes. 

622
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:09,200
The B is less of, you know, and 
outgoing person as you are and 

623
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,700
I'm the same as you. 
I am outspoken. 

624
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:15,100
I have have I have real trouble 
with with gray rock and it's, 

625
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:20,600
and for most people, it's hard 
to do, and it's, and it's not 

626
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,200
meant to be a long-term 
strategy. 

627
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,100
So if you find yourself needing 
to do gray rock, that's an 

628
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:27,900
indication that you need to get 
out of this relationship. 

629
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,700
And if you're using great, rock 
is simply to survive until you 

630
00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:34,900
can get your get everybody out 
the door and away from this 

631
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:38,600
person do that. 
But it's not a long-term 

632
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,000
strategy that you're going to do
gray rock for the next 20 years 

633
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,000
is Your kids are grown up 
because you'll lick you just be 

634
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,800
like a shadow of your phone 
only. 

635
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,700
Yeah, it's hard to keep up 
something that I did in the only

636
00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,100
because it's this help me 
because I have, you know, from 

637
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:59,800
my background I was in corporate
sales and stuff it with my jobs 

638
00:37:59,900 --> 00:38:04,100
I've had to deal with some very 
difficult people and you had to 

639
00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:07,200
deal with them because Ur like 
the big CEO or the vice 

640
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,500
president of this other company.
And in lot of the types of deals

641
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:15,700
that I would do, Do they're 
like, very industrial type of 

642
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:17,000
deals. 
Oil Company. 

643
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,500
Refinery, very big. 
You know, some one was like a 

644
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:25,500
large metal melting Factory. 
So there's a lot of complexities

645
00:38:25,500 --> 00:38:29,600
to these deals. 
So these these deals would take 

646
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,100
sometimes a year-long to 
accomplish that, you would have 

647
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:37,600
to interact with these people. 
And they were pretty brutal to 

648
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,700
deal with, and you had to write 
your work required. 

649
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:43,800
So I got good at being very 
Clinical with them, if that made

650
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,000
sense just answer their 
questions, specifically don't 

651
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,500
really give a little bit of gray
rock, but I would almost be a 

652
00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:54,300
little more clinical. 
Don't react pretend like you're 

653
00:38:54,300 --> 00:38:58,100
a doctor and you have a ward of 
crazy. 

654
00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:00,000
No patients that you're dealing 
with us. 

655
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,900
So you expect their behavior, 
you expect them to say unhinge 

656
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:07,300
things or insulting things and 
then I would actually stop 

657
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:10,500
reacting to the insulting 
comments. 

658
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:12,900
I would simply say, I'm sorry 
you feel Feel that way. 

659
00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:16,000
But you know maybe they saw you 
from practice for you. 

660
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:22,900
I gotta say like a bee. 
Reaction, all of that time. 

661
00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:27,200
I mean, wow, that's a lesson. 
You don't get too often in life.

662
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,400
You know. 
It helped me and then and then 

663
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,400
we're one situation. 
I was in work. 

664
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,300
Were the relationship became so 
combative where I just thought 

665
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:39,400
combating back. 
And then what I would do in the 

666
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,100
morning, I would do a check-in. 
Right? 

667
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:45,000
Say, is everything okay today I 
just want to make sure you're 

668
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,400
gonna have a good day there. 
Anything we need to discuss. 

669
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,600
Is there anything on your mind? 
And then if anything came, I 

670
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,400
didn't try to address you this 
one, why didn't you bring it up 

671
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,200
earlier? 
And we and then I just simply, 

672
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,200
you know, your gray water 
rocking but you're still trying 

673
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,000
to show a little empathy even 
though you almost feel like it. 

674
00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:05,800
So you're not doing like what 
they want though. 

675
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,000
And this is what they want you 
to become bad of. 

676
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,800
They want you to be agitated. 
They want you to unhinge and 

677
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,300
off. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

678
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,100
And that's the same across all 
platforms. 

679
00:40:17,100 --> 00:40:21,300
And, honestly, like I, as we sit
here, I take my my And, I mean, 

680
00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:25,900
so many show ideas. 
Did you know that CEO is one of 

681
00:40:25,900 --> 00:40:30,400
the top professions along with 
surprise cops? 

682
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,600
Yeah, that attracts those with 
high levels of narcissism. 

683
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,500
Yes, I heard that and I believe 
that I heard that in the general

684
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:46,300
population roughly like six to 
seven percent of males have 

685
00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:50,600
narcissistic traits right and 
and then in the corporate world,

686
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,400
Old. 
This me go up to CEO the 

687
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,800
c-suite. 
It's almost a 20 percent of that

688
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:02,700
population was taking these. 
These, you know. 

689
00:41:04,100 --> 00:41:09,000
Also like I I suspect it's much 
more talking about it and 

690
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,500
everything that gets its 
possibly even more of the more 

691
00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:17,800
higher higher of a percentage. 
Oh yeah, chew it in in other 

692
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,600
Industries. 
I would say when I was in the 

693
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:31,500
stockbroker and we actually both
50% off like crazy stuff. 

694
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,700
His wife and I follow each other
on Instagram. 

695
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,300
And she, I mean, I mean what she
went through. 

696
00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:41,300
That's that's an extreme 
version. 

697
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:45,300
Anybody that wants to watch a 
narcissist that work, and what 

698
00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:50,300
we're just about to go watch 
Wolf of Wall Street, and the, in

699
00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:53,300
the US. 
Cocaine and booze and money. 

700
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:56,900
Like I couldn't imagine like 
some of these characters in real

701
00:41:56,900 --> 00:42:01,000
life who now have millions of 
dollars cocaine to feel all 

702
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,700
their crazy ideas and then 
unlimited money. 

703
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:06,800
And then, and also be in a 
position where, you know, people

704
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,700
are kissing their but because 
they have a powerful position 

705
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:13,600
and they're giving away or 
providing high paying jobs to 

706
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,900
people. 
Yeah, that's wild. 

707
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,400
It's we could even I should 
write down a list of Good movies

708
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,700
to watch about narcissism. 
Yeah, let's do that. 

709
00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:27,100
I was thinking that we could go 
like look at some different 

710
00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:31,500
characters of movies and kind of
do like a breakdown of them as 

711
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:34,500
well because it's funny, like I 
said in the very beginning of 

712
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:38,800
her of our podcast today. 
When I thought about narcissism 

713
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,000
back in the day, I think about, 
you know, an arrogant person, 

714
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,500
may be dressed all prepped, me 
and designer clothing too, good 

715
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:48,000
for anything. 
And now, I actually look at a 

716
00:42:48,008 --> 00:42:50,000
person like that. 
I don't see them as a nurse. 

717
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,800
I see my mother. 
System secure. 

718
00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:53,800
There are nurses that, take that
trait. 

719
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:58,000
But and now as time goes on the 
people that I now categorize the

720
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,600
nurses, they don't, they're not 
like that at all long time, 

721
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,600
they're quite unattractive and 
there and it's, it's cuz of that

722
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:09,500
they're trying to overcompensate
for being really at the end of 

723
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:10,500
the day. 
And I'm not trying to be 

724
00:43:10,500 --> 00:43:12,900
disparaging, but some people are
shitty people. 

725
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:15,100
And it's the way they are. 
They don't have a lot going on 

726
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:18,000
for them, their views of their 
horrible deal with. 

727
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,500
They're the type of people that 
go to a restaurant or Fast food 

728
00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:24,100
and their fries are cold and 
they want to talk to the 

729
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:25,300
manager. 
And next thing, you know, 

730
00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:28,000
they're either on Tick-Tock. 
You're flailing their arms 

731
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,000
around, right? 
Yeah. 

732
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:35,100
They they they want constant 
confrontation from people on the

733
00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:39,000
Spectrum from, you know, from 
somebody who maybe does really 

734
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,600
take care of their body, you 
know, gym, rats and that all the

735
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:47,800
word pound to someone with 
full-blown narcissistic 

736
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,800
personality disorder. 
Yes, you know, Absolutely well. 

737
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,700
Again, you know, going being a 
person, I did go to gyms and 

738
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:58,300
still do and, you know, the 
Fitness. 

739
00:43:58,300 --> 00:43:59,500
Willow. 
Absolutely. 

740
00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:01,800
I it's like I worked. 
It was kind of funny. 

741
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,400
I worked in a nightclub, and 
then, during the day, I work out

742
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,200
at the gym. 
I was a bouncer at a nightclub 

743
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,900
was like in the early 90s and 
I'm surprised we haven't run 

744
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:16,300
into each other. 
Yeah. 

745
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,600
I feel like we know some mutual 
probably do and then it's funny 

746
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,200
because it is the same idiots. 
You see during the day at the 

747
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,900
gym, they were the same idiots 
in the bar. 

748
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,300
You know, they say that again, 
you know, again, I don't want to

749
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:32,200
label everyone with the nurses 
brush. 

750
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,800
Some people are just, you know, 
they just don't have good social

751
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,900
skills. 
So they almost great like a 

752
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,500
character, a construct that they
feel that that's the the face 

753
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:43,500
they should be put out in the 
world, right? 

754
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,800
And it may be in a lot of times 
in these, And I actually see us 

755
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,100
more ties in security, and not 
really being a confident person.

756
00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:56,200
When you're like, let's say 
you're a six foot tall man and 

757
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,800
you weigh 300 pounds of Rippling
muscles and you're still doing 

758
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,900
more drugs and more steroids, he
stole. 

759
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:04,600
And I met these kind of guys 
because they think they're 

760
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:09,200
small, they have like a body 
dysmorphia condition and I don't

761
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,300
listen to verse. 
I see them almost as broken 

762
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:13,200
children. 
That, you know, you're talking 

763
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,700
about these extreme like cases 
of or the woman. 

764
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,700
Gets like the Tripoli Double D 
moves hit OK babe. 

765
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:26,300
I'm like yeah it's very I mean 
human psychology is is complex 

766
00:45:26,300 --> 00:45:29,500
and it's also not complex 
because you know that's that's 

767
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:32,500
another topic for another day to
you know, like when we're 

768
00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:36,600
looking at somebody like dr. 
Gabor mate is from Vancouver to 

769
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,300
really talks about trauma and 
addiction and sometimes by 

770
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,500
modifying your body, you know 
for women like you talked about 

771
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,500
or eating disorders going to the
gym four guys. 

772
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:50,900
And That it's almost an 
addiction and a lot of addiction

773
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:54,800
stem from childhood trauma and 
that's something, you know, 

774
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,700
maybe we can look at next time 
to, you know, how created out of

775
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:02,600
adverse childhood experiences 
and that. 

776
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,600
So, it's all, it's all kind of 
related key touch on something 

777
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,200
you definitely I think a lot of 
people including myself included

778
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,200
the things. 
That's our makes us kind of 

779
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,700
screwed up. 
Does stem from childhood more 

780
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:16,600
older? 
I get I realize that right? 

781
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,100
Yeah. 
I know the type of relationships

782
00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:22,500
that I would get myself into. 
I had a crazy mother. 

783
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,500
I'd always get into a 
relationship where I felt like I

784
00:46:24,508 --> 00:46:27,500
had to save the woman that, you 
know, you're the Savior, your 

785
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:29,000
the yeah. 
And then you'll. 

786
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:31,500
Yeah, rescuer. 
And then I was spending all my 

787
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:34,600
energy doing that instead of 
putting that energy into myself,

788
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,800
to making myself better than. 
Maybe I hate to say it, but 

789
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,100
rocking a better quality person.
And like I like I put on my page

790
00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:44,900
all the time, you know, having a
narcissistic parents, that's who

791
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:47,700
up to accept abuse and later. 
Relationships. 

792
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:48,700
Yes. 
Absolutely. 

793
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:54,600
You become as you do and and the
patterns that you learn and your

794
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:59,700
family, whatever those are you 
will tend to repeat those in 

795
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:02,600
your, in your adult life. 
So I do enjoy doing these shows 

796
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,400
with you. 
I we go back until if we can 

797
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,900
give a lot of stuff that we can 
talk about. 

798
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,600
I hope that we can develop this 
into a successful series because

799
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,000
you know a lot of people like 
the first one will go like this 

800
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,500
one. 
I just want to touch on the Adam

801
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:17,700
ate. 
Situation. 

802
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:19,900
There's a Facebook group called 
stop. 

803
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:24,300
Adam H, if you were a victim 
that you went through the last 

804
00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:27,400
door as a male, or he went to 
New Westminster House of the 

805
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,800
female you had negative 
interactions with them. 

806
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:37,400
Please contact me via Facebook 
or Instagram. 

807
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,200
Send me a DM. 
I'd love to hear your 

808
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,400
testimonial off the Record. 
Even I had a guy called me 

809
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,300
yesterday and wanted. 
He didn't want to use his name 

810
00:47:45,300 --> 00:47:48,100
or anything he called me. 
I Listen to his testimony. 

811
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,000
That I'm happy to do that, 
right? 

812
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:56,000
So it's a complex story. 
It has a lot of moving parts and

813
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,800
a lot of victims. 
So I'm at this stage, I want to 

814
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:03,500
hear everyone's testimony and 
figure out what we can do as a 

815
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:05,900
community to prevent this from 
happening again. 

816
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,200
And I think we're doing that 
already just by doing this 

817
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:14,200
podcast and I hope that in some 
way, this can change the way 

818
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,700
that these recovery houses are 
made. 

819
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:23,500
You know, looking at placing 
vulnerable people with people of

820
00:48:23,500 --> 00:48:26,300
the opposite sex act, wet, not 
maybe maybe that can be 

821
00:48:26,300 --> 00:48:30,000
Revisited because that's at the 
end of the day that it's not the

822
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,500
best idea. 
No. 

823
00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:36,100
And then, like you said, it's 
almost inevitable that a person 

824
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,600
who has access to a pool of 
vulnerable. 

825
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:41,800
Women are going to be. 
Yes, there exists. 

826
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,800
It just like, you know, wolf in 
sheep clothing. 

827
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:44,700
They're going to. 
Yeah. 

828
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:54,300
Populations and, and it's really
not that hard. 

829
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:54,800
So,