1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,480 Thank you for joining me, Mark the Dark Mind Detective. 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,720 This is Part 2 of my conversation with two 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,960 extraordinary women. I call this episode Voices from 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,440 the Shadows, Revisiting the Robert Picton case with Doctor 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:21,160 Sasha Reed and Sue Brown. Today I'm honored to share this 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,760 conversation that has stayed with me, a conversation that 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,720 cuts to the heart of Canada's darkest chapter, the Robert 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,520 Picton case. Joining me in this Part 2 are 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,960 two extraordinary voices in the fight for justice. 10 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:42,680 Dr. Sasha Reed, a psychologist, advocate, and scholar whose work 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:47,480 centers on preserving evidence for cold cases like the Robert 12 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:51,360 Picton case. Sue Brown, a relentless lawyer 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,920 with Justice for Girls, whose expertise lies in exposing the 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,280 systemic failures that disproportionately harms 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:04,879 marginalized and Indigenous women and girls victims too 16 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:09,360 often reduced to statistics in the crisis of the Missing and 17 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:14,520 murdered Indigenous women. This interview was recorded 18 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,800 exactly approximately 1 year ago, and the decision to release 19 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,840 it now comes after a year of my own personal research, thousands 20 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,440 of hours of grappling with the unspeakable weight of this case. 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:32,200 Initially I was set out to craft a hard hitting and investigative 22 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,480 documentary, but the deeper I dove so I chose to write a book. 23 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,040 I didn't want to release this conversation until I was very 24 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,760 clear in the direction that my work was going to produce. 25 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,720 I plan to make an A bunch of upcoming podcasts that will 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:59,720 focus on my research, my work, my questions that I have about 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,240 this case, and parallels of the Picton case to cases of this 28 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,720 magnitude throughout North America. 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,880 The book Picked and Learn will be rooted in fact but 30 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,280 fictionalized. I did this because I wanted to 31 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,480 give the victims families a rest. 32 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,080 I'm changing the names of the people involved to give the 33 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,560 people a rest who've been dragged through so much, put 34 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,720 through so much of this case. Because I feel that there's a 35 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,840 very important overall arching story that needs to be told 36 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,360 about this case. And I think the best way to do 37 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,040 it is to do it in a story telling format. 38 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,640 Researching this case throughout the year and longer, but 39 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:58,280 intensely throughout this last year has left me physically and 40 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,800 emotionally drained many times, haunted by the sheer scale of 41 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:08,800 suffering it. If it shook me this deeply, I 42 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,360 can't begin to phantom the toll of survivors, families in the 43 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,680 front line, workers who fought tirelessly, foreclosure. 44 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,480 Yet throughout the soul, this interview with Doctor Reed and 45 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,680 Sue Brown became a guiding light. 46 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,880 Revisiting their insights today after a year of research, I'm 47 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,240 I'm struck how powerfully their words. 48 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:38,320 Align with my own conclusion. The systemic neglect, the 49 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:44,080 institutional apathy and the urgent call to protect those 50 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,240 society this seems to so easily forget. 51 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,080 So before we begin, I want to share a dedication from 52 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Pictonland, my book, A tribute to Jane Doe's whose unidentified 53 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:04,240 skull was found in 1995, and to all of the unnamed souls soul 54 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,680 waiting for justice. Imagine, if you will, her voice 55 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,120 rising from the earth. This podcast is for her, for 56 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,279 every indigenous girl, for every marginalized woman, every victim 57 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,280 silenced by indifference together. 58 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:27,200 Let's unravel the systemic rot that has allowed such horrors to 59 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,640 fester. Let's demand better. 60 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:35,320 Please join me in this conversation as Doctor Sasha 61 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,280 Reed illuminates the critical importance of preserving 62 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:44,240 evidence in cold cases, like in Robert Picton's case of horrors, 63 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,600 and Sue Brown dismantles the machinery of systemic justice. 64 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,120 Their expertise doesn't just shed light on Picton's crime, it 65 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,200 challenges us all to see the humanity we've overlooked. 66 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,720 This is from my book that I'm writing. 67 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,840 It's called. This is a piece that I wrote for 68 00:05:07,840 --> 00:05:15,080 my book Picton Land, and this part is called Jane Doe Speaks, 69 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,840 narrated in the voice of Jane Doe, a spirit. 70 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,320 Of all the women who were lost and picked in land, speaking 71 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:31,560 from the shadows of her past, her words are not a plea nor an 72 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,800 accusation. They are a call to remembrance, 73 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,240 a demand that she and the others are not erased. 74 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,120 You don't know my name. No one does. 75 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,640 Not any more. Once I had a name. 76 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,400 A little girl's name, whispered and lullabies. 77 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:02,080 A name written on birthday cards and careful, loving cursive. 78 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:08,440 A name that teachers called out in classrooms where I once sat 79 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:15,280 full of potential. But now I am just Jane Doe, the 80 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:21,440 nameless, the forgotten. You don't know my face either. 81 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,560 But I was once beautiful. Maybe not in the way that 82 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:32,200 mattered to the world, but in a way all little girls are. 83 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:36,720 Before the world gets their hands on them, before it strips 84 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,440 them down piece by piece, until there's nothing left but hunger 85 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:47,840 and exhaustion and the quiet understanding that no one is 86 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:53,640 coming to save you. I was born in Vancouver, a place 87 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:59,280 that is supposed to be bright, safe, and full of possibilities. 88 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,960 But my world was small, a space between the screaming parents 89 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:11,200 crack sidewalks and the deep, arching loneliness that settled 90 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,560 in my bones when my mother left for the last time, when my 91 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,680 father turned cold, when the system swallowed me whole. 92 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:27,360 They call it foster care, but care is not what I found there. 93 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:34,600 I learned young that the only thing worse than being hurt is 94 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,240 not being believed, that the world shrugs at the suffering of 95 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,520 girls like me. I ran to the streets because at 96 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,480 least there I understood the rules. 97 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:52,800 Be useful or be used. At 15, the first time a man took 98 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,200 something from me I didn't want to give, and when I cried, he 99 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,360 laughed. That was a moment I realized 100 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,960 that I wasn't a person anymore. I was a transaction, a girl to 101 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,480 be passed around, bought, sold, discarded. 102 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,760 Addiction found me soon after, but let's be honest, I never 103 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,400 stood a chance. You've seen girls like me 104 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,840 before. You pass me on the street and 105 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,240 looked away. Pretend not to notice the track 106 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,080 marks, the hollow eyes, the way we flinch when a car pulls up 107 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,720 too fast. You might have even felt sorry 108 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,760 for me, just for a moment. But you never stopped. 109 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:40,440 None of you stopped. And that's how I ended up here. 110 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,120 And that's how I ended up here, in a place that should never 111 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,120 have existed, a place that should have been shut down long 112 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,640 before ever set foot on its soil. 113 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:57,520 The farm. The last place I ever saw, I was 114 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:02,040 taken there by a man who smiled like he was doing me a favor. 115 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,880 A man who talks slow and laughed easy, the kind of laugh that 116 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,920 makes you feel stupid, forever being afraid. 117 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,640 I was cold, he promised warmth, I was hungry, he promised food. 118 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,160 I was tired. He promised a place to sleep. 119 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,960 He wasn't the 1st man to lie to me, but he was the last. 120 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,520 I won't tell you how it happened. 121 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:31,280 You already know, and if you don't, it's because you don't 122 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,960 want to. I will tell you this, It was not 123 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:42,320 quick, and when it was over, there was nothing left of me but 124 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,360 bones, blood and silence. The world went on. 125 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,640 The city still sparkles, the rich drank their wine, the 126 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,720 politicians so made their speeches, the news cameras 127 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,080 flickered for a day or two, and then they turned away, just like 128 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,560 you did when you passed me on the street. 129 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,360 My body was erased. But I refuse to be. 130 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:12,280 I am here, I am speaking, and I will not be forgotten, Not by 131 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,680 you, not by anyone. Because I was a baby once, a 132 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:20,360 little girl with soft skin and bright eyes and a laugh and that 133 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:27,000 made my mother smile. And if you had held me then, if 134 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,160 you rocked me to sleep in your arms, if you had kissed my 135 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:36,320 forehead and whispered that the world would be kind to me, could 136 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,840 you have ever imagined this ending? 137 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,720 Would you have believed me if I told you the worst part wasn't 138 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,240 what happened on the farm? The worst part that no one came 139 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:58,320 looking? Well, I mean, organized crime is 140 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,080 alive and well in the province and in Canada generally. 141 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,600 And I know that the, of course, I'm sure you read Kim Bolin's 142 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:10,080 work in her most recent investigative piece, looking at 143 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,600 the connections between organized crime groups who 144 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,800 operate in British Columbia and their connections 145 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,320 internationally and how much stronger they're becoming. 146 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,120 And, you know, our understanding, the work that we 147 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,400 do at JFG is, of course, with teenage girls. 148 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,920 And so when we're talking about girls who are being exploited 149 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,800 and trafficked, those are children, and there's a very 150 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,760 huge demand by men to exploit girls. 151 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,480 Children. And particularly Indigenous 152 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,120 girls in this province. And that's facilitated by 153 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,480 organized crime for sure. And, you know, the drug 154 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,960 traffickers are the human traffickers in those particular 155 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,080 situations. And I think we have to assume 156 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,440 that it's all very deeply connected to organized crime. 157 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,600 And then that becomes a huge impediment and barrier to the 158 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,760 police to investigate it. But unfortunately, what we're 159 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,400 seeing from the response of the RCMP in these kinds of cases and 160 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,640 in the deaths of these girls is throwing up their hands saying, 161 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,920 wow, you know, if we don't have a complainant, we don't have 162 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,320 somebody coming in and giving us a full confession, what are we 163 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,880 supposed to do about it? I don't know, investigate. 164 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,560 Yes, put some more resources for myself. 165 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:18,920 I have reported on people's behalf many a times over the 166 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,040 four years. Recently I reported on a creep. 167 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,440 He was the top 25 most wanted creep in Canada. 168 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,120 That one, when I called, I called the Surrey RCMP and 169 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,880 reported on this woman's behalf. They were on that one because he 170 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,920 was kind of high profile. However, over the years I've 171 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:43,040 reported on child pornography to the RCMPI reported on creeps, 172 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,200 predators, every kind of case that you can think of. 173 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:52,240 Not murder, but a lot of lot of women who are in a sexual 174 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,720 exploitive situation. Some creep on social media is 175 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:01,240 harassing them, reporting to the RCMP in in some of these cases 176 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,600 that I think that are very serious, especially when it 177 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,680 comes to child pornography, where some of the stupidest 178 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:08,640 people I've ever spoken to in my life. 179 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:12,600 And then part of my mind was, do they put someone stupid on the 180 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,440 phone just to infuriate you? So you're just like, right. 181 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,600 And and this one guy, I am not kidding. 182 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,640 He was an RCMP officer and I'm talking about very serious 183 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,720 stuff, very serious crimes that I thought that Oh my God, that 184 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,880 someone's, you know, that they would take this serious. 185 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,360 He pretended, and I'm going to say to him like, oh, you're, 186 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,120 you're bucking bullshitting me here. 187 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,800 He pretended that he didn't know what social media was. 188 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,000 And I'm like, you know what? It's actually been around for 189 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,440 about say, you know, 15 years and essentially it works like an 190 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,120 e-mail, but it has a front face where you can put pictures and 191 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,680 stuff, but people can send you message. 192 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:49,320 You know how an e-mail works, right? 193 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,400 He pretended that he didn't know what it was all social media. 194 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,640 As soon as they oh, this is ridiculous, right? 195 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,280 I am telling you, this guy should not have been a security 196 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,400 guard at a Walmart. I was horrified. 197 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,440 I've talked to other cops that were somewhat better and I do 198 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,400 know some that I do like as people, you know, I do. 199 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,920 I do podcast things with Amanda, who's a she runs like she's a 200 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,920 media person for the Sky Train Cops. 201 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,520 She's super cool. I talked to a guy quite a bit, 202 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,840 even on my podcast, Seb, who was involved in the emergency 203 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,880 response team. He's super cool and he's all 204 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:29,040 about holding them accountable. Generally as an organization, I 205 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:36,800 feel that they have to kind of step up their game, you know, 206 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,000 and like you're saying how many like even keeping track of of 207 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,920 women and men too. There's a lot of men, especially 208 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,280 young, good looking men that go missing in BC too, which is 209 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,760 highly suspicious. And reporting is not an easy 210 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:51,960 thing. And I'm thinking I'm pretty 211 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,720 articulate. I could be feisty. 212 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,920 I could, you know, I could you make my point across what about 213 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,960 someone with English as a second language or someone with some 214 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,760 intellectual disabilities, right. 215 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,320 Oh, they're going to just, you know, sweep the floor with them, 216 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,840 you know, So yeah, they're the reporting is a huge issue in BC 217 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:15,480 I. Think Sasha, your database tells 218 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,360 a lot about the the cases of missing and murdered people in 219 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,360 British Columbia. So the missing murder database, 220 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,800 the MMD, we started many, many years ago, I think it was in my 221 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,760 second year of my PHDI was at that time creating a serial 222 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,800 homicide database for the purpose of my dissertation, and 223 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,240 it was a lot of work. I needed a break and I decided 224 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:44,400 one night to just look into some stories of missing murdered 225 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,800 people. And I wanted to look stories 226 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,240 from home in Ontario. And as I was looking into 227 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:55,040 stories, I came across the story of somebody I'd known from high 228 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,600 school. And it was a shocking moment. 229 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,240 I mean, I spend my entire life studying crimes and homicide, 230 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,240 and you think I'd be numb to it by then, But no, To deal with 231 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,720 what I had just come across. And So what I did is I just put 232 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,720 her name in a database. It wasn't even a database at the 233 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,320 moment. It was an Excel file, and I 234 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,360 populated it with information. I guess that's how I process and 235 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,760 whatever, but that's what I did. And it started with that name 236 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:28,040 and every single day thereafter, I just continued to go into the 237 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,160 Excel file and add additional names of missing murdered people 238 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,720 whose cases were still unsolved. And as of this morning, I 239 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:40,880 believe we have 11,806 people in that database. 240 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,920 It's a nationally representative database, which is the only 241 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,520 database of its kind in the country. 242 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,040 You would imagine that Canada would have a national database 243 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,760 of missing murdered people. We don't. 244 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:53,360 Yeah, that's bizarre. We don't. 245 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,240 Yeah, I actually have a meeting with the Ontario Provincial 246 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,680 Police Historical Homicide unit tomorrow. 247 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,120 Yeah. So I'm gonna be showing them the 248 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,640 database and just, you know, utilizing it as a means to help 249 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,400 them to visualize what they can do with their capacity to get 250 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,760 information that I, you know, could not possibly access. 251 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,440 I'm sure they could do a lot, but the fact that a database 252 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,440 like that doesn't exist, I think is problematic. 253 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,880 But what we do essentially is we find information on missing 254 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,280 murdered individuals. We look at their cold cases. 255 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,240 They are for the most part cold cases. 256 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,640 We input their information, we track that information on a map, 257 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,520 and then we try to identify suspicious clusters of missing 258 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,000 murdered people throughout the country. 259 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,640 Sometimes it's serial killers, most times it's not. 260 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,160 Most times there's a stomach or structural issue. 261 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,040 You know, you know how I was talking about highway of tiers. 262 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,960 You have a lack of Wi-Fi, lack of pretty much everything. 263 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,600 That's what I mean in terms of of a lot of critical 264 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,120 infrastructure can lead to increases in missing murdered 265 00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:58,480 people just because it increases their level, level of 266 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,560 vulnerability. So that's definitely something 267 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,040 that we're using. And yeah, it's been a, it's been 268 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,040 a journey. For sure, I can imagine. 269 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,640 May I ask a question, and this is something I talk a lot about 270 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,320 on my podcast, is why do you believe that BC has such a high 271 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:22,080 missing, missing persons compared to the rest of Canada? 272 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,840 I'll talk specifically, you know, Sue can definitely add in 273 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,960 here as well, but I'll talk specifically about the 274 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,800 Indigenous issue. So I was looking into the 275 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,920 database just to track status, and I realized that British 276 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,240 Columbia, as I have my data represented in the database, 277 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,760 British Columbia accounts for 20% of Canada's missing murdered 278 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,920 indigenous women and girls. And that's a high percentage. 279 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,000 It's higher than any other province throughout Canada. 280 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,480 And I think the issue is multifaceted and it can't be 281 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,480 explained with just a couple of bullet points here and. 282 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,320 There, of course, yeah. It extends all the way back to a 283 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,600 history of Canada's colonialism. It goes back to the RCMP, it 284 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,800 goes to the strange combination of over policing and under 285 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,640 policing, lack of funding, withdrawing of funding it. 286 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,680 It touches on every single aspect and element. 287 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:22,400 And then you have the massive, massively complicated and 288 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,960 devastating in ways geography of British Columbia. 289 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,480 Every single time I can see, I go there with the eyes of, you 290 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,240 know, a person who studies serial homicide my entire life 291 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,240 and I can see so many wonderful in quotes, obviously 292 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,640 opportunities to dispose of a body. 293 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,320 You've got the perfect climate, enormous predators like 294 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,760 predatory animals. It's a haven. 295 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,800 And I think that's why also why area like that travel or that 296 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,440 area, when you travel it, you can see this is a very hot spot 297 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,160 for serial homicide predation. And I think the geography of 298 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:04,080 these spaces does just lend itself very well to hiding, 299 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:10,520 concealing bodies. To add on to that, I would just 300 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,960 say too, there's also a very, very, very high proportion of 301 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,600 people who live in poverty. We've always had a historically 302 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,320 high drug user population. The Downtown Eastside is its 303 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,760 own, you know, economic microcosm of poverty and 304 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,960 marginalization. We have a lot of provincial 305 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,160 mobility. One of the issues that we look 306 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,120 at is, you know, a lot of women and girls like girls in 307 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,320 particular, but Indigenous children actually have to leave 308 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,560 reserves to go to school in other cities. 309 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,080 We also know there's a lack of economic opportunities in so 310 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,320 many parts of northern British Columbia, which forces migration 311 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,880 into areas like Prince George, Kamloops, Kelowna and Vancouver, 312 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,600 where we have really high rates of insecurity, poverty, drug use 313 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,640 and addictions, you know, and all of this, the requisite stuff 314 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,440 that comes with it that creates a very vulnerable population 315 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,560 from a victimology perspective. And then you can also lump on 316 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,480 top of that, I think we have very, very, very active 317 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,760 organized crime happening through the province and very 318 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,360 highly organized, you know, internally, but also the 319 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:23,560 networks are connected with one another. 320 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,720 And so you have, we're, we're coastal, so that brings with it. 321 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,760 And we also, there's trade routes up up the coast from 322 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,520 South America. And then you can add on to that 323 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,280 the, and you can't talk about this issue without talking about 324 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,640 resource extraction in the province of British Columbia and 325 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,600 Alberta, where you see really high demand boom towns where 326 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,280 that have, if you look at the history of boom towns and the 327 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,880 economies around boom times towns all the way back to the 328 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,000 Gold Rush, they've always historically been some of the 329 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,680 same issues. And so all of that, everything 330 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,440 Sasha said and all of that, I think creates a perfect storm 331 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,400 for a lot of unfortunately, disappearances and homicides. 332 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:10,800 And even just when you're looking at that one small period 333 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,840 of time, just like the 80s, eighties to 90s you had in BC in 334 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,840 this, like in Victoria, Vancouver, in and around this 335 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:25,160 area, you had not just one, but you had multiple serial killers, 336 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,080 multiple serial killers. You have some that are still to 337 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,120 this day unsolved. So I think in terms of 338 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,600 uniqueness, like Vancouver really is unique in the sense 339 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:42,680 that it's always somehow drawn these people who exploit women 340 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,440 and girls, who murder women and girls, and who do it 341 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,560 unfortunately quite successfully, as in never being 342 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,360 caught. Yeah, it's, it's disturbing or 343 00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:55,000 truly is like being from Vancouver. 344 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,440 I, I remember, you know, like all the way back to the 70s, 345 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,400 even back in the 70s, it was more of a hippie, you know, the 346 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,880 big kits beach. And there was always, my point 347 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,520 is there was always like this drifter and maybe it's not a 348 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,080 politically correct term they use anymore, but there was 349 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,680 always a drifter element that came to Vancouver. 350 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,760 Maybe it was because they were leaving something back home or 351 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,600 burnt bridges and it represented something, you know, being on 352 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,000 the coast, the weather's better. And there was always people that 353 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,200 they always felt like. I met them all my life, even 354 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,720 going all the way back to the 70s. 355 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,760 He always felt they were running from something. 356 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,160 And and then because of your running from something, you're 357 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,800 probably likely to go and get yourself in bad situations. 358 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,440 You come here without money, you get involved in drugs, which is 359 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,520 really easy to do because drugs are just so plentiful. 360 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,280 And then you're like you said, you're in poverty. 361 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,120 You're, you're, you're put into a vulnerable situation, right? 362 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:53,240 Maybe you weren't prepared for how expensive Vancouver was 363 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,840 going to be, right. And and then there's I believe 364 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,520 that there's people that come here because they know that 365 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,200 there's lots of vulnerable people kind of like dark tourism 366 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,440 and stuff because our Lawrence law enforcement, like again, 367 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,280 you've done so many cases, right, How they put a list of 368 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,760 all the unsolved cases in the cases that aren't there are 369 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,320 there are solved. They're probably not even 1%. 370 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,880 You know it. It amazes me at their inability 371 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,800 to solve crimes like going, even though in Vancouver for the gang 372 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,200 crimes 400. I, I remember when I first 373 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,040 started this, I made a list of all the unsolved homicides. 374 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:33,080 Like I, I, I gave up and I just lost interest at about 550 of 375 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,480 unsolved homicides that were gang related. 376 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,360 Made an Excel spreadsheet, right? 377 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:40,640 And I got to 550. There's probably another hundred 378 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,920 you can put on that. That was in 2020, right? 379 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,840 You're saying that they can't, they can't solve any of these. 380 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,520 And I'd like to hate to say it. If I was involved in organized 381 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,520 crime and even talk to my friend David, you know what, what with 382 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,320 some of the new factors in BC, it'd be a gold rush for 383 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,040 criminals. Absolutely would be. 384 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,680 If I was a criminal, there'd be so many things that I, I could 385 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,520 easily exploit. Like absolutely, even if I get 386 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,240 arrested, even if they do have evidence, even someone has me on 387 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,280 camera, probably maybe get thrown out or stayed right. 388 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,040 Like I like again, if I honestly like if I was a criminal in BC, 389 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,840 I'd be laughing. And but it's it's scary because 390 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,480 there's a lot of good people that aren't that want to live 391 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,080 here, raise their kids an environment that's 392 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,280 compassionate. And if something does happen to 393 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,520 your family member or friends. I've spoken to so many women, 394 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,720 especially indigenous women who their loved ones are, are dead 395 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,400 and and they'll say, oh, she died of a fentanyl overdose. 396 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,560 But then they'll tell the cops, well, she never done fentanyl. 397 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,440 She drank a little bit, but she wasn't a drug user. 398 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,200 Oh, yeah. Well, maybe she started, we 399 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,120 found we. So basically, you could murder 400 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,120 someone to throw a throw a little baggie of fentanyl and, 401 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,560 you know, give them, you know, if they died of a hotshot or 402 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,920 whatever. Case closed, right? 403 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,680 Case closed, right. And then you have a system that 404 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,280 really doesn't give a shit. And then this Picton thing 405 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:05,800 proves it. And we went to the candlelight 406 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:11,680 vigil the next day, they removed everything someone was probably 407 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,640 watching in the parking lot. And when everyone left, all, you 408 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,280 know, throw it all in the trash. Disgusting, you know, absolutely 409 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,160 disgusting, but not surprised in the least. 410 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,480 Absolutely not no zero surprise, but still disgusting, right. 411 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,600 But that's the attitude, right? It's always like it's it's sort 412 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,120 of like long as Vancouver looks nice and have shiny bit 413 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:32,640 buildings, but don't go to the downtown East side. 414 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,760 But we're going to get World Cup soccer here. 415 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,880 So we're a world class city now, right? 416 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,880 Everyone's happy, right? So I'm, I'm I'm grateful for 417 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,800 what you guys are doing. Maybe talk about the the 418 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,720 evidence and, and and again there's was it 15,000 exhibits 419 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,320 that they want to destroy, give back. 420 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:51,880 What does that mean? Like what did like? 421 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,280 Well, what's their proposal? I guess but with this evidence 422 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,440 from Robert Picton that they so they have over 200, they 423 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:05,800 collected 200,000 and exhibits but they want to destroy 14,000 424 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:11,160 or like I don't get it. The RCMP quietly disposed of 425 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:19,600 what we are assuming was 185,000 exhibits, already 5 applications 426 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,280 that preceded. Before, so they've already been 427 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,920 doing this. For a couple years, since 2021. 428 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:33,360 And so at this point, I think we are fighting for what's left. 429 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:39,560 The very last remaining pieces. Wow. 430 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,040 Again, sometimes it's, it's like it's hard for me to be lost for 431 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,000 words. But like when you study and I 432 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,840 know you guys know this case probably not better than me. 433 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,960 And every aspect of it was disrespect to the family when 434 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,360 they tried to report. Oh, we don't. 435 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,320 They've been calling them hookers or something. 436 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,960 I can't remember her name, but I, I have it in my notes. 437 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,240 She was a woman. Yeah, she worked for. 438 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,440 She was one of the one that had answered the phone and she was 439 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,120 such a bitch. Been referring to them as 440 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:13,080 hookers and you know, just awful, like every aspect of it. 441 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,840 And there was there was some good, there were definitely good 442 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,680 people that cared. There were people that cared, 443 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,800 but there was a majority that didn't right. 444 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,400 They didn't feel it was worth investigating. 445 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,960 They denied there was a serial killer, but they while they hid 446 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,320 the Hemlock Valley serial killer from the public. 447 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,280 I didn't know about that serial killer. 448 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,200 So recently when I started researching the Picton case, a 449 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,720 couple I, I did some podcasts about two years ago. 450 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,760 That's when I figured I discovered there was a Hemlock 451 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,000 Valley serial killer that was not well known in the public 452 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,560 during the, during the 90 fives of I know because I watch the 453 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,080 news every day back then. And, and, and so not only do 454 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,720 they keep they're denying there was a serial killer, but they 455 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,280 denied the existence of that. That would for sure there was a 456 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,520 serial killer, the one in the the Hemlock Valley Mission 1 and 457 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,080 there's probably my other ones too. 458 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,040 So there's there's a there's maybe seek talk on this. 459 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,600 This is something I've noticed, especially in the last decade. 460 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,880 You know, I've always, you know, was followed news stories as it 461 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,080 broke, as they progressed through the media and into the 462 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,840 court. I find, and maybe it's my 463 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,520 perception there's more of a secrecy now around cases that 464 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,240 they were before. For example, there was a guy and 465 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,920 and Kelowna part of the equestrian community. 466 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,280 Apparently. Is this rapist something? 467 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,600 Well, a man, a man, a man is accused of sexual. 468 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,320 So why name him what you name him So people can be but that 469 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,080 that that wasn't the case 20 years ago or 10 years ago. 470 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,360 If they're if someone's going to put a report, a journalist who, 471 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,960 what, where, when, how, right. But now it seems like it's like 472 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,200 these cases are very cryptic, like, Oh, there's a man talk to 473 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,200 another person and that man died. 474 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,480 You know they were. You got to read through the 475 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,200 lines almost more. I think we can say more broadly 476 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,000 in Canada we have a really big access to information problem. 477 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,720 I think, you know, I think we can most recently trace it back 478 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,920 to Stephen Harper and some of the reforms that he brought in 479 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,720 to our access to information legislation, federally at least, 480 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,760 and provincially. I would say the provinces have 481 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,400 followed suit largely. And I, I mean, Canada's access 482 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,440 to information laws are not aligned with what I would 483 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,840 consider adequate for a western democracy. 484 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,840 Transparency and accountability is a pillar of democracy, 485 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:46,240 fundamentally important, which means that our institutions, 486 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,880 including the police, need to be open. 487 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,800 Yeah. To be to to be scrutinized and 488 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:58,240 to have the, you know the quality of their work assessed. 489 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,080 In. Public they have major 490 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,800 obligations and duties to fulfill to the public they have 491 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,000 a due diligence obligation to thoroughly investigate all cases 492 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,480 that come to them and we can't possibly assess whether they're 493 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,880 doing their job if we don't have access to the information you 494 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,920 know, that doesn't mean that all information every salacious. 495 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:20,440 Piece No. No. 496 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,720 Detail needs to be provided to the public. 497 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,040 There absolutely needs to be a balance. 498 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,200 Of course, the ethics and the morals associated with the 499 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,440 information that's released to the public is really important. 500 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,200 But I would say the pendulum has swung way, way, way, way, way 501 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,200 too far towards information and privacy to a point where we 502 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,320 can't hold our public institutions accountable for the 503 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,000 work that they're doing. And I think that that's actually 504 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,880 quite dangerous. And, and yeah, we absolutely see 505 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,360 it in the context of trying to get in information. 506 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,000 Even the families in the cases that we work on, missing and 507 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,800 murdered cases, we have a lot of difficulty getting access to the 508 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,120 police files I work on, on the Innocence Project. 509 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,200 We've had tremendous difficulties in some of our 510 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,560 cases getting access to the post conviction documents to review 511 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,680 where we have, you know, credible information that 512 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,840 suggests that there may be somebody who's innocent and 513 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,560 being held in prison wrongfully. Getting access. 514 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,480 To those documents is incredibly difficult, and it should not be 515 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,920 that difficult for professionals, lawyers who are 516 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,200 doing their job, discharging their duty as officers of the 517 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,000 court, as people who are tasked with, you know, professionally 518 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,200 seeing about the administration of justice. 519 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,200 We should be granted professional access. 520 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,600 That is part of the role lawyers and advocates should be playing 521 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,640 in this system. And our governments don't let 522 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,000 that happen. And I think that that's 523 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,800 something that we need to push back against. 524 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,720 Yeah, the secrecy is really concerning to me too, because 525 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,920 it's like, I don't think it makes for a safer society. 526 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,840 Like you said, they don't have to release every little piece of 527 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,240 rain. And I and I understand the 528 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,480 benefit of holding back for investigation purposes, like 529 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,760 some key pieces so that, you know, because he get crackpots 530 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,040 that, you know, self confess or whatever. 531 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,080 But yeah, something I've I've really noticed it strongly, 532 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,080 especially in the last five years or so, more even. 533 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,560 And, and like even even recently I I've been tracking missing men 534 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,360 that have been going missing in, in Vancouver and there's quite a 535 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,080 few of them. And there is, there is, there 536 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:33,920 seems to be, you know, a certain look that that seem to be going 537 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:39,080 missing, like young, attractive, athletic, don't have any issues 538 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,040 with like criminal cases or anything like that. 539 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,440 And, and there's almost like no information being released. 540 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,240 And I've even spoken to like the mother, the mother's even 541 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,640 frustrated with the RCMP and stuff. 542 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,360 And five years now after the fact, there's like no new pieces 543 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,760 of information like 0 and, and, and for the families that that 544 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,000 just must like, it's like a like the double edged sword, right? 545 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,760 You got the sword of your your child or loved 1 going missing 546 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,280 and then you have OK, this incompetent investigation that's 547 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,639 that's going parallel to this tragedy, which is probably 548 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,760 unfortunately the case for more victims families than not, 549 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,560 right? Yeah. 550 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,000 Well, I think that's also something that informs a lot of 551 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,000 the a lot of the work that Sue and I do. 552 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,480 So we recognize that so many of these people, so many family 553 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,920 members have been just completely ignored by 554 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,159 investigators or even when trying to get reports, people 555 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:39,639 won't take them. We understand that they've had 556 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,000 difficulties, severe difficulties with the state. 557 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,800 And secrecy, of course, is another one of those big 558 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,560 difficulties. So when we interact with or 559 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,199 engage with families, we want to make sure that we're operating 560 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:53,400 on this standpoint of we're going to share this information 561 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,320 with you. We have, you know, a thread with 562 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,720 family members where we're constantly updating them, even 563 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:01,120 if it's an update about nothing, like, hey, just checking in, 564 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,960 reminding you that we're here. If you have any questions 565 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,920 whatsoever, it doesn't matter if you do or not. 566 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,920 I think having that open line of communication and being there 567 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,640 and being responsive to the questions that they have, even 568 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,280 when it's like legitimately nothing or even if it is 569 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,400 something like, hey, this is very sensitive information, 570 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,160 please don't share it. But I think you're entitled to 571 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,200 know. You're entitled to know. 572 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,320 So that is something I think that informs our work in the way 573 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,880 that we try to interact and engage with the families that we 574 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,040 work with. Oh that's amazing. 575 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,280 So why you break down what what your organized both your 576 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,040 organizations are and just for the audience and how they can 577 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,640 support you guys and support your important work that you 578 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,560 guys do. So I mean, the midnight order is 579 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,280 my my big thing. I can't say too much obviously, 580 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,760 because embargo, but the midnight order is where a lot of 581 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,040 this investigative work started. It's not where the database 582 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,960 started, but it's where it kind of took off. 583 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,880 We're a team of women essentially, who are doctors and 584 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,960 seem to be lawyers, psychotherapist professionals 585 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,680 who are interested in helping people to access justice and 586 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,720 acquire, you know, resolutions to complex cold cases. 587 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,800 And so we work on databases, we talk with families and we try to 588 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,800 do that. And then just the completion, 589 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,880 not even completion, but filling out the serial homicide database 590 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,080 and the missing murder database and just making sure that these 591 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,880 things are constantly being engaged with because they do 592 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,160 have an investigative, sorry, my cat. 593 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:43,200 They definitely have a role for investigations and we're the 594 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,680 only ones with these databases that we tried to do what we can 595 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,600 with them. Well, that's amazing. 596 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,200 That's really amazing. And so how about your your 597 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,880 organization, Justice for Girls? Yeah, Justice for Girls has been 598 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,400 around since 1999. We were founded with the mandate 599 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,920 to advocate for the rights and equality of teenage girls who 600 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,600 live in poverty, large, foreign, out of the youth movement at the 601 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:10,520 time and the anti violence movement, recognizing that that 602 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,520 particular population of girls was falling through the cracks. 603 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,480 So we were always sort of looking at, you know, 604 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,760 particularly girls who were in foster care were subject to 605 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,520 extreme levels of violence and the most horrific violence in 606 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,480 the Downtown Eastside and throughout the province. 607 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,880 So over nearly two decades, our work has taken us throughout the 608 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,280 province to rural and remote communities. 609 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,400 A huge number of the girls that we work with and cases that we 610 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,280 work on are Indigenous girls because they're so 611 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,480 disproportionately represented among the missing and murdered 612 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,440 girls and girls who are in poverty and girls who are in 613 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,360 foster care and girls who don't receive adequate responses from 614 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,160 the police. Most I would say, although we 615 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,680 have a huge piece of work that that really emphasizes 616 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,800 supporting and promoting the rights of girls to access 617 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,360 education, meaningful access to education, to meaningful access 618 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,600 for economic and employment opportunities for, you know, the 619 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,080 right to be protected in. Cost. 620 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,840 Care and to have those institutions function the way 621 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,400 that they're supposed to, that's a huge emphasis on our work. 622 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,040 But I would say a significant amount of the work that I do and 623 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,640 have done with the organization is around police accountability. 624 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,960 And we've also done a bunch of work with girls who were 625 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,080 incarcerated and advocating for their human rights in that 626 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,240 context. So some of that work has looked 627 00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:37,840 like supporting, you know, the victims of Serial, you know, 628 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,120 abusers and exploiters working on cases where young women were 629 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,760 murdered to advocate for the police to do their job, for the 630 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,680 justice system to do their job, to support their families, to 631 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,800 support the young women if they themselves are victims and 632 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,640 testifying in court to ensure that they have meaningful access 633 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,160 to justice. And in cases involving missing 634 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,880 and murdered girls, our focus is on thorough and adequate 635 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,840 investigations and holding the state accountable at domestic, 636 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,720 national levels as well as international levels for their 637 00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:12,360 failures to do so on behalf of families. 638 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,600 So in 2013, we supported a Human Rights Watch investigation in 639 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,560 the province or investigated police failures to thoroughly 640 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,760 investigate and respond to violence against women and 641 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,960 girls. We worked with coalitions of of 642 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,800 organizations in the past to support investigations by the 643 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,600 Inter American Commission on Human Rights on violence against 644 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,840 Indigenous women and girls in the province, as well as the 645 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,520 Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women at 646 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,040 The UN also did an investigation in 2015. 647 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,480 We have strongly advocated for the implementation of 648 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,280 recommendations from all of those inquiries, including the 649 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,840 Missing Women's Inquiry, the Wally Opal Inquiry, and the 650 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,040 Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Inquiry. 651 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,160 So politically, our emphasis is on trying to convince our 652 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,600 governments to. Thoroughly. 653 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,720 Implement those recommendations, which they have and continue to 654 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:09,280 really just fail horribly to do so. 655 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,200 There's that and then there is this piece of investigative 656 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,280 work. A lot of it I work with Sasha 657 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,160 on. And Sasha's expertise is so 658 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,680 invaluable in this area of current death investigations in 659 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,440 cases of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls where 660 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,440 there hasn't been any investigation. 661 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,920 And we we want to see the police do their job and we want to see 662 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,560 justice for the families. Well, that's amazing a question 663 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,600 then, if you guys have said it's from positivity at the end here, 664 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:42,600 if you if, if, if let's let's you know, let's say this right, 665 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,760 like you were in charge, right? How would you structure then 666 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,280 like to prevent like what, what can maybe the better question 667 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,120 is, is how do we prevent this? Because again, BC seems to be a 668 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,240 real hotbed of this stuff, right? 669 00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:58,720 It's, and personally from my research, seems like it's a 670 00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,800 Western Canada issue. You know what I mean? 671 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,640 Like especially the missing indigenous women. 672 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,200 It seems to be throughout Western Canada for the most 673 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,440 part, parts of Ontario at Thunder Bay. 674 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:12,200 I keep track of Thunder Bay because it comes up all the 675 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,280 time. Like it just seems like every 676 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,440 other day there's someone going missing in Thunder Bay. 677 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,720 So that's a hot spot, which is almost comparable to BC, right? 678 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,600 But you know, BC seems to be a hotspot. 679 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,920 So how do we prevent this From what could we do differently to 680 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,680 to prevent these future tragedies? 681 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,280 The future Pictons, the future Olsens, or the creeps that you 682 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,840 know you come here to for predatory reasons. 683 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,280 That's a very good question. It's a very hard question to 684 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,280 answer. OK, I'm going to say in no 685 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,600 particular order, one, I think we need to make very public 686 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,960 information going into missing, murdered people. 687 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,000 We need to have statistics on who's going missing, where are 688 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,640 they going missing, and that we shouldn't have to have to go 689 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,080 through FOIA or a tip to get this information. 690 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:06,520 This information should be out there. 691 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,840 This is going to be bold. So I'm not too sure how well 692 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,280 this is going to play out, but I'm going to say maybe a little 693 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,240 dismantling of the RCMP may be good. 694 00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:18,680 I mean, it's a racist, colonialist institution in the 695 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,280 1st place. Maybe why you start with 696 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,840 dismantling that and trying to come up with something, anything 697 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:29,200 else that doesn't have, you know, racism and a colonialist 698 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,560 narrative as its foundation. Why don't we change that up? 699 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,320 I think that we need to pump funding into making sure that 700 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,800 there is that critical infrastructure in those spaces 701 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,560 that lead to so much vulnerability for people living 702 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,240 in the rural NI think that we need to and Sue's probably for 703 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:50,360 sure going to talk about this. I think we need to do a lot more 704 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,920 in getting police departments up to task on what human 705 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,120 trafficking looks like, how it takes shape, who are the players 706 00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,360 and how do we go about creating, I don't know, investigative 707 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,480 strategies and also new legislation if it's necessary to 708 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,880 make sure that we're bringing these people to justice and that 709 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,200 we're we're helping these people who are so vulnerable and go to 710 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,880 education. I could go on Sue, throw some 711 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,080 stuff in. Sure. 712 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:22,080 Those are all very good, Sasha, in, I'm going to say in a very 713 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,640 particular order. First and foremost, we need to 714 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:30,880 properly and thoroughly fund the institutions that we rely upon 715 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,160 that actually address so many of the, the victimology factors 716 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,280 that we know render particularly women and girls vulnerable to 717 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,000 violence in the 1st place. So the foster care system needs 718 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:46,240 to properly the you know, we need, we need to have adequate 719 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,960 and safe housing for all people and women and girls in 720 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,000 particular. We need, you know, adequate and 721 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,800 thoroughly funded education and employment options so that women 722 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,040 and girls. We have to keep in mind that 723 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,760 poverty disproportionately effects women and girls. 724 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,360 It's a. Very gender dispute that. 725 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:09,520 We don't talk about often enough and so but but all I for all 726 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,120 people poverty, those basic social issues have to be 727 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,400 addressed because they make those people vulnerable to 728 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,480 violence and exploitation. Exploitation can only happen 729 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,720 where somebody is leveraging power against. 730 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,240 Yeah, absolutely. And if you take that power away, 731 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,840 then you necessarily shift that exploitive relationship and in 732 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,960 the meantime, give meaning to the fundamental human rights to 733 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,560 an adequate environment, an adequate and housing adequate 734 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,400 standard of living, basic necessities, you know, patient, 735 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,320 the list goes on. Safety. 736 00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:51,920 So that first and foremost is something we need to do better. 737 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,680 We need to put more money back into those institutions. 738 00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:00,160 And we also requisitely need to have appropriate accountability 739 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,400 and transparency from those institutions. 740 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,080 We need to function better as a society. 741 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:11,480 Secondly, you know, and related, we need better accountability 742 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,040 and transparency on the police. I do think there's based on 743 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,040 everything I know and I'm not certainly don't know everything, 744 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,320 but I would say all of the information I have gleaned has 745 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,000 said to me there is an internal rot in the RCMP that needs to be 746 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,960 rooted out. And I think that that can 747 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,960 probably only happen with a revisioning of what the national 748 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,440 police force looks like and what policing looks like on the 749 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,080 ground in communities. And I don't think that our 750 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,840 national police force can be doing both at a bare minimum. 751 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,200 But I think that that needs to be fundamentally shifted and 752 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,480 changed with a requisite amount of accountability and 753 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,280 transparency on whatever policing system and policing 754 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,960 institutions we have. And also relatedly, what we 755 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,480 don't have in Canada. What we really ought to have in 756 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,280 Canada is a remedy mechanism that's available for victims and 757 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,120 families of people who've been murdered or disappeared to go to 758 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,680 when they feel that the police have not thoroughly. 759 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,280 Investigated. Cases, we don't really have an 760 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,400 adequate remedy. I mean, you can do a police 761 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,760 complaint, but there. Aren't they'll investigate 762 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,080 themselves and we did a great job yeah and even. 763 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,720 If even if they come out with recommendations, I mean, they're 764 00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,920 you know, there's disciplinary measures that might, might 765 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,120 happen, but then they're you know, they're bad Opoling. 766 00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,320 What's it essentially a systemic issue and they're able to just 767 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,280 say, Oh, well, that was that one bad police officer. 768 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,120 That's not the system. The most of us are good. 769 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,120 Let's just keep the system functioning the way it is. 770 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:44,200 And I it's not working and we need a truly independent body, 771 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,520 an oversight body that isn't the police overseeing the police. 772 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:54,320 And as part of their mandate, we need them to to provide real 773 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,520 remedies to families where the police are failing because we 774 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,040 don't have that. And then as Sasha said, yes, 775 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,840 absolutely we need to look at trafficking and exploitation in 776 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,200 this country. And we really seriously have to 777 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,320 look at the impact that that's having the relationship. 778 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,920 When you talk about the Highway of Tears, I don't think you 779 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,120 could talk about the Highway of Tears without talking about 780 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,480 exploitation and. Trafficking no of. 781 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,640 Course not. But we don't talk about this 782 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,400 fictional potential serial killer. 783 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,440 I don't think there was a serial killer. 784 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,880 And and so that's, you know, something that we really need to 785 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,520 take a hard look at what we're doing there. 786 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,120 So those would be my sort of like wish list, top top. 787 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,200 Five yeah, no, I agree 100%. I did a lot of things of that 788 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,600 too. And, and it's, it's extremely 789 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:45,000 disappointing, like how when these bigger cases hit the media 790 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,280 and become part of the media or sorry, the, the, the public 791 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,240 conversation and you get a lot of talking points, but you 792 00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:56,840 really ever get any, anything that's really satisfactory in my 793 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,320 opinion. I think cops are great for 794 00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:02,320 emergency situation. Someone's breaking into your 795 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,920 house. There's a bank robbery, there's 796 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,880 a carjacking, They're great showing up with flashing lights 797 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,960 and guns. And, you know, if someone's 798 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,080 breaking in my house, I'm, yeah, I'm going to call the cops, 799 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,440 right? However, when it comes to stuff 800 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:18,400 where it's like investigating stuff, that's that maybe it's 801 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,640 not as clear because there's some very, very smart people. 802 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,640 Back to Picton. And this is the thing I always 803 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,840 say he wasn't, I'm trying not to swear, but I'm, it's hard. 804 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,720 I always joke and I say he wasn't the Zodiac Killer. 805 00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:35,120 He wasn't like he was 5 missteps ahead of the cops with his 806 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,280 ciphers and codes. He was out in the open and he 807 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,560 wasn't really, really cleaning up after himself really. 808 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,200 You know, not to be gross, but he was pretty sloppy, right? 809 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,760 What about the criminals that are serial killers, which we 810 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,520 know they're, they exist that are super smart that, that study 811 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,720 forensic, the study of police procedures. 812 00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:00,280 Olson was pretty crafty. He would use different cars. 813 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,040 He would totally clean out his cars after he would have 814 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,720 different changes of clothing and and he was considered head 815 00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:11,040 of his time because he spent so much time in jail. 816 00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,280 He understood how cops thought and how they, how they, how they 817 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:15,960 think. So there are a lot of criminals 818 00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,840 and I've, I've, I've met some in my life. 819 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:21,400 You know, they know every, every trick in the book. 820 00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,760 They know every loophole, right. So when it comes to people that 821 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,440 murder and stuff there, there's probably some that are pretty 822 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,720 intelligent out there that are really smart. 823 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,480 They, they, they don't have a chance of catching them. 824 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,760 If, if Picton was able to do it for 20 years. 825 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,720 That scares me. That keeps me up at night. 826 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:40,840 So we, we also have to attract smarter people to 827 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:42,920 investigations. There's probably a lot of people 828 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,480 like yourselves, like you, you Doctor Sasha Reed is is that 829 00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:51,200 imagine if you were given the task to actually arrest people, 830 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:52,840 but you didn't have to wear a uniform. 831 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,800 You know what I mean? Like people like you should be 832 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,960 be able to go in law enforcement and and say no, that person's 833 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,080 killing somebody. You know what I mean? 834 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:05,840 I, I can prove it right. Have to you get what I'm saying? 835 00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:10,880 We have to, we have to like recruit better and brighter 836 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,680 people that want to catch these people because I hate to say it. 837 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,880 I think the way that you like, you're back to the RCMP, the way 838 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,680 it's structured, the way that you have to go through the old 839 00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:22,960 boys club and all the other things. 840 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,360 It probably prevents a lot of people, especially women that 841 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,160 want to join it in the first place. 842 00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:30,960 You know, all the sexual harassment subsuits and things 843 00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,520 like that. Yeah, the billion dollar lawsuit 844 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:39,160 of sexual assault and harassment against female RCMP officers is 845 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,440 definitely enough to stop women, I think, from entering that 846 00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,720 institution. I think it's vital that women 847 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:47,200 are represented in that institution for sure. 848 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,040 I think I mean. My motivation? 849 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,880 I was a month in, of research and getting ready for this 850 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:57,200 Jeffrey Epstein series. And I was about a month in of 851 00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,200 researching, reading everything I can. 852 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,760 I've, I've been following the case for God for a long time. 853 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,600 So I do know, you know, quite a bit about it. 854 00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,720 But I was doing the deep dive research and then I was 855 00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:09,960 contacted like, Hey, we're making a Picton documentary. 856 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,720 And then I heard about the, the evidence being destroyed. 857 00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:15,560 And I thought, well, this is probably a good time to put it 858 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,880 out there, try to put out stuff that really, cuz my, my goal, 859 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,720 like my goal is to really breakdown the events and 860 00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:25,560 document the events. So they're kind of preserved in 861 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,240 the future. And you know, my way through 862 00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:29,920 storytelling and stuff like that. 863 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:34,520 But really, really nailed down what happened when, where, what, 864 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,280 you know what I mean? Because I, I find that most of 865 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,160 the articles don't really, you know, they kind of brush over, 866 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,720 they give you a little recap and then, you know, picked and was 867 00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:43,960 bad. He murdered people. 868 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,960 We all know that, but we don't really understand the story. 869 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,680 So my my goal is to really break down this story the best I can 870 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,440 in multiple podcasts and posts and. 871 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,600 I think so. And if you want, I can give you 872 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,840 just a quick rundown of how we came to realize that this 873 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:00,360 evidence is being disposed of if you're. 874 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:01,160 Absolutely not. Please. 875 00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:09,560 Yeah, please. 2020 came about, and again, I'm 2020 is COVID. 876 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,680 I'm studying Robert Picton because he's an outlier. 877 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,560 And in that process I find an article talking about the fact 878 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,920 that the RCMP are trying to dispose of evidence, a small 879 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:21,160 amount of evidence from this case. 880 00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,480 I think it was like Jeremy Heinsworth, a Vancouver reporter 881 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,760 who reported on that. I thought that was really 882 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:28,840 interesting. I didn't think too much of it at 883 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,520 that time because I just started. 884 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,120 But then the more I studied, the more I realized, Oh my God, we 885 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,360 have to stop this. So I wanted to get a sense of 886 00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,400 what had been destroyed first and foremost. 887 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,080 I remember emailing journalist to see what have you found. 888 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,080 You have enough, David, do you have any information you could 889 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:48,600 share with me in terms of what's being disposed of? 890 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,880 They said no, we don't have that information. 891 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,960 So that's upsetting. Sure. 892 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:58,600 So I filed an A temp last summer with the RCMP and I basically 893 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:04,160 asked about evidence related to the Ruskin site because that was 894 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,040 what was cited in the 2020 article as being the only 895 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:08,680 evidence that was being disposed of. 896 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,040 Evidence from the Ruskin site. It's where the mission Jane Doe. 897 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,640 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. 898 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:14,360 Mission. Yeah, right. 899 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,960 Yeah. And so IA tipped the RCMP and I 900 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,360 got a phone call which I thought was very weird because I I've 901 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:27,920 sent a tips to everyone imaginable and this is the only 902 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:34,320 time I've ever got a phone call. In this phone call I was sat 903 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,840 down and kind of told what these applications were. 904 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,000 And that's the very first time I heard this word applications, 905 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,880 plural, not singular. And I said well what do you mean 906 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,800 how many have gone forward? And that's when I learned there 907 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,960 had been 5 applications so far that I've gone forward. 908 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,720 And I asked what is the status of everything? 909 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,800 And the explanation was that everything has been disposed of. 910 00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,160 And when I asked for clarification as to what 911 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:10,520 disposed means, the answer was, and I quote disposed as in to be 912 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:17,160 like, as in to no longer exist. The conversation continued where 913 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:22,520 we learned items were incinerated and then we learned, 914 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,520 well, I learned that there was going to be more applications 915 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,760 for the coming. And at that point, I think I 916 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,560 told Sue what was going on. I think at this point we kind of 917 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,440 knew that there was more to depict in case that we really 918 00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,360 needed to dive into. And I think at that moment, we 919 00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:42,440 basically were all hands on deck for seeing what information 920 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:44,040 could we get, how can we stop this? 921 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,560 I did get one affidavit, so that very first one from the Ruskin 922 00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,600 site, we got in touch with the family members from that 923 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,640 application just to confirm with them. 924 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:58,440 Did you know about this? At which point they said no. 925 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,640 And we, again, became immediately concerned and 926 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,160 continued to do everything that we're doing now, because it's 927 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,800 very clear that they weren't informed, they weren't aware, 928 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,280 they don't agree with what's happening. 929 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,640 And even though I asked for the full repertoire of every 930 00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:19,480 affidavit that's been filed in terms of disposition, I still 931 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:24,200 only have that one. I've sent in another application 932 00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,680 asking for that information. And the response I got was this 933 00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,240 is now before the courts, so I can no longer access these 934 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,040 affidavits, which is frustrating. 935 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:39,120 But slowly and steadily, I think even just having that first one 936 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,800 was really valuable for us in terms of seeing just the sheer 937 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,760 amount of evidence that had been disposed of. 938 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:51,840 The explanation for it which was these are of no value which just 939 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,120 seeing that on a piece of paper when you know that there is over 940 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,400 20 unsolved cases connected. To this. 941 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,360 This was really frustrating, I think, and it just continues. 942 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,640 So I think that's one of the reasons why I myself am so, so 943 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,960 energized just to stop this, because we don't know. 944 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:12,840 And I think I've talked to so many people about this. 945 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,600 You don't know the value of this evidence until you know it. 946 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:20,480 The couple things come to mind. So just to recap for the people 947 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,080 listening right. So my understanding before this 948 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:29,000 conversation was they are applying to destroy or give back 949 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,960 or whatever the wording they use of this evidence. 950 00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,440 And then what you're informing people listening in myself is 951 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,400 no, they've been destroying stuff since 2020 in secret. 952 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:44,840 And one of the things that does get under my skin, like I felt, 953 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,840 you know, for quite a while and especially more so now there's 954 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:51,480 like the sanitation of this case. 955 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,600 Like, for example, we went to the candlelight visual. 956 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,360 There's not one sign, There's not a memorial. 957 00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:01,280 That land wasn't made into a park. 958 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,480 They could have made a nice garden, a park, a memorial, 959 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,720 something out of it, right? A chain link fence around the 960 00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:09,800 grassy field. Nothing to see here. 961 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,640 It's almost too like antiseptic, if that makes sense, you know 962 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:16,360 what I mean? It's like a crime scene that's 963 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,880 been cleaned up, right? And then course, you know, the, 964 00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:21,200 the family members did their memorial. 965 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:22,720 Oh, gotta clean it up, get it away. 966 00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,720 It's almost like we don't, it's like out of sight, out of mind, 967 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,160 right? And then the destroying in 968 00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,480 secret this, this evidence, it's like so. 969 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:35,440 Of this being done in secret. So I mean, I know that the RCMP 970 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:36,920 are going to come back and they're going to say no, this 971 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,360 was conducted in open court. But I think the timing of it 972 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,600 really calls into question whether or not it was open 973 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,520 court. This was done during COVID. 974 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,400 What's happening during COVID. We're all stuck at home doing 975 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,760 nothing and not actually paying attention to anything. 976 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,240 We're too stressed, we're too scared to do anything. 977 00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:56,480 And so no public representation was there at the hearings when 978 00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,120 they were applying for these disposition orders, people 979 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:00,840 weren't there. People weren't paying attention. 980 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,400 And even that one newspaper article really went under the 981 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,560 radar. I'm sure that there are people 982 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,120 in BC who would have followed up on that. 983 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:12,480 But again, I think that the the timing of this all seriously 984 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:16,200 calls into question whether or not this was open to the public 985 00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,080 in the way it should have been. This was Canada's most 986 00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:23,400 significant stereo homicide case in like in its. 987 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,840 History. And this was a case that was 988 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,000 marked by systemic discrimination and problems. 989 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,520 At every single step, the public should have been informed. 990 00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,120 They should have been there and if not, then the family should 991 00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:38,200 have and they were not. This same scenario happening 992 00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,760 anywhere else. What what would be the outcome, 993 00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,200 right? Like, for example, like you see, 994 00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:45,480 even like his, his practices, like, you know, his, his 995 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,560 slaughterhouse wasn't even licensed for Christ's sake, Even 996 00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,240 that right? This that you know, the, the way 997 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,880 they got the warrant to go to on his property, right was kind of 998 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,760 sketchy. You know, informant saying, oh, 999 00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,480 there was a Mac 10 on the there, right, blah, blah, blah, right. 1000 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,120 You know, the a little bit on the shade. 1001 00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,560 This guy's begging the cops that he needs to pay rent. 1002 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,240 Well, that's not even how it started. 1003 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:06,560 That was Scott Chubb, and this is. 1004 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:07,960 Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. 1005 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:10,760 Yeah, but he. And he's like, yeah, there's 1006 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,720 marijuana on the farm and the cops. 1007 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,080 Care. Yeah, they didn't care about. 1008 00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,720 That yeah, no. But my point is, is that when 1009 00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,720 someone's been illegally slaughtering pigs in the most 1010 00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,640 disgusting, cruelest way fashion, isn't that a reason to 1011 00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:25,760 be able to go on the farm? Hey, what are you doing on your 1012 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:27,800 property? You have chicken fights. 1013 00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:28,720 You have. Oh, yeah. 1014 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,760 He was also salvaging cars from the from the Vancouver police. 1015 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,600 So it's just like what you had a contract with a with like almost 1016 00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,480 nothing about it on paper makes any sense. 1017 00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:40,360 Yeah, right. But like I said, because I've 1018 00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,960 been in BC on my course, it's BC, right? 1019 00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,640 That's, you know, if you're from here, you understand. 1020 00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:48,640 Yeah. If you're from somewhere else, 1021 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:52,080 you'd be like what, like cock fighting or whatever, like even 1022 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,120 that, you know, it's how many illegal little, like organized 1023 00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:57,800 little crime things that you have going on that on that 1024 00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,280 property, right? Yeah, it's, it's brutal. 1025 01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,080 It's, I don't know, it's upside down world. 1026 01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:07,760 Well, I hate this case really. I honestly, I hate everything 1027 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:09,880 about it. I, I, I'll, I'll research it 1028 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,840 really hard for like a month and I'll take give myself two weeks 1029 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,600 off it just because I need to detox from it. 1030 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:18,160 Like I, I find that I even get like headaches. 1031 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,240 I get stomach issues. Like if I really get into like 1032 01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:24,360 the it's, it's so brutal and vicious. 1033 01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:30,080 My my cat just came in too. So yeah, cats are always just 1034 01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,000 interrupting. Anyways, well, you guys have a 1035 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,040 great evening and I appreciate your time and I'll be in touch 1036 01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:38,960 with you guys. OK, Thank you. 1037 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:40,600 You're welcome. Have a good day. 1038 01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:42,680 Thank you again, both. Bye bye.