We'll get the final numbers and lots more thoughts on the whole
Bernardo case, Tuesday at 7:00, with our lives, special talk TV,
the Bernardo trial, we want your views, fax us, email us, call
us, and then join us live Tuesday at 7:00.
Everybody dismembered in the shallow, Waters of Lake Gibb
system. Prince's body was found on a
side road is just above and beyond any other murder trial
that I've ever covered curiosity.
That was a such a sick mind would do something like this.
I think the facts will speak for themselves.
She's just as sick as he is, it doesn't seem real is read it and
we respond to Horrors that are beyond our imagination.
He looks so innocent. Everything in the papers, all
Bernardo guilty, good evening and Welcome to our talk
television special tonight days. After Paul, Bernardo was
convicted of the first-degree murders of Chris.
And French and Leslie, mahaffy. Many questions about the case?
Remain Carlos deal. Bernardo's appeal and the other
charges, he still faces over the next hour.
We're going to hear from you, as well as our panel of special
guests on this night of talk television.
But first, the victims of this horror Quiet communities to
innocent girls and their unspeakable fate at the hands of
this man. And this woman, Leslie mahaffy,
14 abducted, June 1991, her cruelly dismembered remains
found two weeks later and tuned in a lake found on the same day.
They were married less than a year.
Later fifteen-year-old Kristen French becomes prey for the
barnardo's abducted. Walking home from school.
And if those were the only images we ever had of Kristen
and Leslie, that would be terrible enough, but none of us
was prepared for the horrors to come out of that Courthouse as
we learned of the final hours of their lives.
A Chronicle of degradation dehumanization and torture.
He said it was to satisfy and out-of-control sex life.
He said that he enjoyed violating a Leslie, mahaffy as
punishment. He said he was aroused waiting
for a sobbing. Kristen French to perform sex
acts on him. Can we begin to imagine what
they suffered or the sufferings of their families and to be in
that courtroom to hear the soul shattering screams of the two
girls that could only be the peak of the agony.
They Carried for so long Do you want to know?
That we are thinking of you and that everything can be done is
being done. We love you Kristen and we're
constantly in our thoughts and our prayers will get you home
real fast. Thank you.
I'll father is tearful appeal that will never forget toward
the very start his daughters ordeal.
They'd already had to deal with their daughters deaths during
the trial. They had to deal with the horror
of how they had lived. Their last moments to see their
girls violated to hear them cry out, but the families were there
through it, all is an ultimate Act of love for Christian at
Leslie. They endured only the true,
there are many ways for you to join our discussion tonight.
Through our city online Center by phone at 8:00, 7:00 7716, It
also fax us with your comments or questions at 593 news NE WS
or email by keying and pulse at City tv.com will start taking
your comments and speak live with our panel tonight.
Right? After a short break, we'll be
right back. Registered with our phone pole
yet 8702 242, if? Yes, you think the crown should
have cut a deal with Karla Homolka, 870 4424 if no you do
not. The tapes now, a, who in the
right mind and as your total perverted freak would want to do
those teams. Anyways, I just insane.
Well thing should be locked up in a vault or burned or
something because no one should see that.
I feel sorry for anybody that would want to see that.
And if you do, there's a place like this down the street, on
Yonge Street, 25-cent, peep show.
You get all kinds that stuff. Okay, so don't need try and why
would you wanna see someone suffers doesn't make any sense,
right. if you want to do just a sick and twisted as Bernardo
ends the range life, Welcome back to talk television, Paul.
Bernardo the thirty one-year-old baby faced bookkeeper.
The boy next door, the Mind behind some of the most horrific
of crimes bench in takes us inside that mind.
Now, through video tapes, which members of the jury never got to
see You're listening to a sobbing.
Paul, Bernardo begging for Karla Homolka to come back home back
to the marital bliss. That was once captured in these
photographs, but was shattered in this flashlight.
Attack in January, 93. It was a wedding Carla appeared.
So proud of that went on in the summer of 91.
Despite her testimony six months earlier, he had forced her into
the videotape, sexual assault of her own baby sister, Tammy,
along with him. The 15 year old died.
The casualty of a one-night stand that just would not end
between her big sister Carla. The once, little girl who loved
furry animals and Paul Bernardo Want to be businessman.
You ever get caught? No.
Never why? On the deadly innocent guy?
I'll kick your ass and Men off to stir the guy who always
wanted to be more than just one of the guys becoming anything
better than what one of the guys would consider pretty great.
A party animal of gates, anything can be made to look
foreboding and ominous and retrospect.
But who would have read so much into one of three fun-loving,
guys. Predictably acting like they're
in some beer commercial, while they're away on holidays.
There's nothing special about this street either, just another
Charming tree lines to Bourbon Street in Scarborough.
Well, Bernardo grew up in that house right over there.
And now, as you listen to some of his Ambitions from his
so-called suicide tape, take a look at video, he shot of his
own bedroom. The slogans that he put up on
the wall. All of the things he wanted to
be. The average, the average guy
tried to be large, I try to be the best thing.
If you ever watched it because I needed maybe I don't know why.
I just really tried to be the best for everybody.
I want to be the world. Bernardo always wanted to hear,
larger-than-life, Praises from his victims, Kristen French and
Leslie. Mahaffy on those other video
tapes, we can't show you even as they were forced into degrading.
Sex acts inside this house is perfect.
Little Port deluzy Bungalow police later ripped apart, in a
futile. Search, for the video.
Here's the basement. Where Leslie?
Happy's body was dismembered. Here's the bathroom where
Bernardo had Kristen French. Try on perfume and acts for his
porno movie. Here's the bedroom where both
teams died. Well, they stayed with him
through all that stubbornly relentlessly playing house, no
matter what was really going on in the real world.
It's something. That the victims were swallowed
up for such absurd. Banal, fantasy, a fantasy world,
you might find hilarious if it wasn't.
So, tragic, stuff is Christ. What does feel kid, huh?
Would two, three, four. All right, let's get to members
some of our Who have shown up here tonight?
John Rosen. Paul Bernardo is Laura, thanks
for being here tonight. You were quoted at one time.
I guess relatively recently, as saying that this guy was just
like the rest of us. Basically, a regular guy except
for the fact that he had a few problems.
You really believe that. Well, he is a human being and he
does start off the like the rest of us is a certain genetic
makeup and he's subject to whatever environmental pressures
growing up as some of us are there's nothing certainly
Dramatic in his background to give any indication that he
would commit some of the offenses that he's alleged to
have committed. When it all came out, when you
knew what he had done, aside from the fact that you are his
lawyer and your must maintain a certain decorum, but as a human
being, what kind of things were going through your mind.
Well, I try and divorce the client from the allegation.
Otherwise, I lose my objectivity but you know, no doubt.
Some of these things are pretty horrendous and even he admits
that they are and particularly in retrospect, I think he's also
come to grips with the fact that he's had a problem.
Something that I don't think he appreciated at the time that
they were happening. He will be launching an appeal.
Of course, you are on record as having said, so, well, I
recommended it. The process is underway.
It may take a little bit of Time, but certainly that's going
to happen, what that's only in respect to the murder
convictions, because his position has been and always
probably will be that he didn't cause the death of these two
girls and therefore, isn't guilty of first-degree murder on
what grounds where your launched a peel, is it, you took issue
with judge. Lesage has a charge to the jury.
Will that be the grounds for your appeal?
That's one of them. There's been a number of legal
rulings as well and that occurred during the course of
the trial. So that will also form part of
it. And there may be other things
coming. Up on the record as well.
So, I will get back to you in a second jhana.
Part of our interactive format, involves a call.
We have Craig from Brampton on the line.
Good evening. Craig, what would you like to
say? I just wanted to say that.
I do agree with the crown, making a deal with a mocha
because I think at that time, they didn't have enough as of it
evidence to prosecute and I think her testimony was crucial.
And at the time they didn't have the tapes which is more crucial
I think but At the time I still. I firmly believe that the the
crown did their job. Alright.
Thank you for calling in tonight.
Greg bench in is followed the case from the outset to, or at
least, you know, the legalese part of it.
But laurenhonican who also worked in our Newsroom, followed
it from the very beginning, when the crimes were happening and no
suspect was had at that time, Lauren.
Well, that's right, I was reading a lot of interesting
things in the paper this weekend about possible, inquiries and
calls for inquiries. And I remember back then doing
so many stories, He's looking, for example, for cream-colored
Camaros and and trying to get information out of the Niagara
Regional Police back then so a whole separate issue of this
whole case. And it's so enormous is the
investigation itself and what happened at the beginning and
what happened with the police at the beginning when they came so
close to having Bernardo and and what lives could have been
saved. And there's so much that yet has
to come out. And I think back to those to
those years and remembering that back, then we had no information
and there was this big Fight between the media and the
police. And so many things that came out
then and there has been heavy criticism of the police
throughout the investigation throughout the trial.
A lot of people said, well you know, they could have had this
guy. For example, the night that
Bernardo was driving home with Swiss Chalet in his car and
somebody had followed him with with everything, but the last
digit of his license plate. That's right.
There's a, there are a few actually a couple of lemons from
st. Catharines who called in
license, plate numbers, one of them got the whole thing, right?
But I think Think they had about 12 stalking incidents that year,
but they didn't investigate that one is the author.
Stephen Williams is talked about.
They were more concerned about saw marks, on on different
things that they were sending away to as far away as Memphis
Tennessee. I mean, that that's all the the
background for why you need a deal you know at that point from
the Crown's office. But I wonder you know, when you
look at our phone pull the numbers are way skewed against
the deal and I wonder if some of those people are saying we want
to know why you got into the position to make that deal to
have to make. That deal.
I also have actually a question for that last caller.
I don't know if he's still there but the question is you know you
may feel that the deal was necessary at the time in order
to go after the suspect. But do you think that you needed
to cut Karla Homolka another deal once the trial got underway
and the Jane Doe sexual assault? Should that have been swept
under? So because she was testifying,
we have somebody on the line now from Dundas who began the
petition against Carla. Good evening.
Hello. What would you like to say?
Well, Um I don't think that they should have made the deal either
the second deal and I believe that also encompassed a me, the
sister like she told that after they found the tapes and they
said that she students at in jail I guess and thought well
gee they found those takes. What about the argument though?
If they, if they didn't do the deal with Carla, they basically
had nothing against Bernardo because at that point, they
didn't have the videotapes. That's right.
But when they did have the videotapes and And then they
realized there were two other victims on the tapes.
They didn't have to make another deal with her.
Yeah. They could have had a right
there and they could have charged her with first-degree
murder. Yeah.
Where's Christie? Christie blatchford from the
Toronto Sun you ever covered anything of remotely horrific as
this in your career as horrific but not for such a prolonged
period of time. I mean, that was the tough part
I suppose, unless you what did you come away from The Trial
feeling like Dreadful? But I mean, tired, emotionally
drained, all the things. Everybody.
I think involved in it feels and unsatisfied.
I don't blame lawyers for being nervous about the prospect of
having politicians, try and undo.
What is done in the court system deals such as this.
But I think what the public is probably owed is some sort of
accounting from people in the Attorney General's office, The
Architects of this deal just to tell us what their rationale was
to tell us what their thinking, was the only kind of explanation
we've ever had came from. Ray Houlihan sort of toward the
end of the trial and he Wasn't one of the dealmakers.
I'd like to hear from every Siegel and Michael Cote and I
think we should worry. Seagull is basically the
architect of the deal is you know as I suspect Michael?
Cody has to I believe he was pretty pretty involved.
And I mean perhaps this was a this was a political decision in
the end coming out of the then Attorney General's office, Mary,
Ann, Boyd, and perhaps she should be asked a few questions
too, and that's not to say we should undo it, but that we
should be told what the hell went on will get back to
Carla's? Vo on the Bernardo trial right?
After a short break, we'll be right?
Right back with our talk, television special.
We're counting your vote, 870 2242.
If you think the crown should have cut a deal with Karla
Homolka, 870 4424 if no, you do not, we'll update the numbers
all night long. Give you the final tally
tomorrow, night at six. Well frankly, I don't agree with
that. The other cross chop with Karla
Homolka. I mean, I'm not against me one.
The totally against the plate. A bargain that they call it
North American continent. But that was a little unfair, I
mean, for her to get a manslaughter, which was 12
years. Thank you.
Sure. Got the first degree.
Welcome back to talk television, one of the most controversial
aspects of the Bernardo trial was the deal cut by the crown
with Karla Homolka. The plea bargain deal, many
people believe that whole thing should be reopened.
But first before we get into that, here's how the deal came
about in the first place. February 1993, the sex slings
have two schoolgirls long. Unsolved green ribbon task,
force cream-colored Camaro, thousands of phone tips.
The backdrop of the deal early 1993, a bruised and battered.
Karla Bernardo is removed by her father from the house she shared
with husband Paul. She X2 Niagara police about her
alleged abuse, but when the green ribbon task force first
calls her, she puts them off. Instead goes to a bar meets.
A man as good time only days later.
Does she talk with detectives? Then those two lawyer, George
Walker. The deal Wheels were in motion
and on February 17th. Paul bernardo's arrest.
But why? I pursued a deal?
Why then in his closing arguments here at the Bernardo
trial, Prosecutor Ray. Houlihan suggested that prior to
the final deal with Karla Homolka police had really, no
hard evidence linking Paul Bernardo to the French Mahaffey
murders police spent weeks searching the couple's Port
deluzy house. But DNA results would not be
available for months and the key evidence.
The infamous videotapes would not surface for over a year.
Tapes chronicling the sex assaults Kristen French Leslie,
mahaffy, Tammy Homolka, tapes removed from barnardo's house by
his, former lawyer, Ken Murray tapes, Murray did not hand over
until he quit the case. 16 months later in September 1994,
it was against that backdrop, no, videotapes and little direct
evidence that Karla Homolka is deal.
Was struck at first, the mochas lawyers, demanded blanket
immunity it was Failed in this handwritten statement by then
Karla Bernardo dated February 13th, 1993 immunity that quote
would have pertain to any alleged offenses committed by me
or any offenses that I am alleged to have been a party to
or accessory to, but there was to be no blanket, immunity the
deal-making went back and forth. Still no videotapes desperate
for evidence to damn Bernardo but wary of giving an accomplice
no time the two sides Settle for a 10-year sentence, 54 Kristen,
French 54, Leslie? Mahaffy, are you in the
Christmas cheer? That's only one you are only
after police began probing. The death of Carlos baby, sister
Tammy was the deal reworked to 12 years For her testimony, her
help the crown promised not to interfere with her parole.
Then just this past, June, the crown decided not to charge
Homolka for her part. In the videotape, sex assault of
a woman, the court called Jane, Doe and assault.
Homolka said she did not remember.
So by June Karla Homolka was waiting to testify against her
ex-husband. Now she waits for the full
parole that could be hers by the summer of 1997.
Go back to the phones. Now, on the line with this Carol
from Burlington, Carol, I understand you were a friend of
Leslie, mahaffy. Is that correct?
Yes, actually my daughter and Leslie grew up together.
They went to public school together and they had their 13th
birthday, pajama party and I just want people to realize that
it's not forgotten. Its she'll never be the same,
the pictures are on the wall. I can't begin to tell you what
it's done to our family, obviously very traumatic for
your daughter as well as your whole family has.
Especially in an age of 13 14, this hits pretty hard.
Yes, very hard. It's in North Burlington.
We went through hell. We couldn't let her daughter's
out. We spent times with Debbie
Mahaffey, you know, and when the radio announcement came that the
body they found had brown hair and brown eyes.
We were relieved. Yeah, I had to phone a radio
station and when they identified it as Leslie, I can't tell you
what happened. Terra, what did you think of the
deal? The crown cut with Karla
Homolka? It makes me sick.
The whole thing makes me sick and that lawyer that sits there.
Aaron says, Paul Bernardo started out normal, he was never
normal. He was evil from day one.
What he did isn't even human. I can't, I know in his heart.
He knows what we feel like, with daughters that we can't.
Imagine must have suffered what Leslie and Kristen did adults.
Don't suffer that way. Yeah, they're usually, they're
murderers are Kinder. This man was an animal and
doesn't deserve to live as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah. Thank you very much for calling
and Carol tonight. These were not the acts of a
rational human being. Why didn't you go for a plea of
insanity? I'd rather not say the righty of
reasons we had, we had our reasons, and I really can't
discuss it, but just an answer to what this lady has to say, I
want to make it perfectly, clear that mr.
Brian and I am a style of form the defense team.
I had every sympathy with the victims and their families and
Ameri fact, the way we conducted the trial, the way from
beginning to end at least we hope was in consideration of
that. Nobody could undo the harm
that's been done. Nobody could bring these girls
back to life. It's the issue.
The issues were limited. There were legal issues.
There was no situation here, where mr.
Bernardo was protesting, his innocence.
What he was saying is that I didn't commit murder.
I committed the other offenses and I deserve to be punished and
they said that under oath is the reason you didn't go for a plea
of insanity. The fact that when you go to a
home for their or an institution for the criminally insane,
you're probably never get out. Whereas Thought you might have a
shot of getting them off. The murder charges.
No, I know that that. Wasn't it at all.
There were other reasons but that wasn't the one mr.
Porter has there, is there precedent for overturning the
deal with Carla that the crown has done?
Is there any way that that deal can be overturned?
There's not a precedent that I'm aware of.
I would, I would think that it would be impossible this time to
overturn, that deal that was made with Karla Homolka.
I mean, the public wants blood. I mean, they want her nail to
how can it be done? Or can it be done?
New evidence new charges. I think they have to go to the
parole board. I think the public has to save
their product, their protest for the parole board.
I don't think there's anything that can be done through the
courts. It's hard to understand why
there was a munity offered on the gene do transaction, which
wasn't part of the original deal and maybe that will be explained
at some point. But so far as the original deal
with, Two, French and Mahaffey. It's a done deal.
Oh yes. There's clearly an issue with
respect to Jane Doe. I mean, let's face it here's a
woman who claims not to remember to anything.
She called 911 twice on one occasion because this woman was
in distress and then the second time to call the ambulance off
and she doesn't remember. I mean, that's just impossible.
No one could possibly buy into that story and the deal with the
government made with her, this time around right before she was
Has to take. The stand is just unconscionable
which brings to mind. Ken Murray been?
Yeah, absolutely. There was, where was where was
his mind while this is going on? Well, I don't know, I've Ken
Murray and I haven't spoken since he got off the pulpit.
Okay, so there are certainly questions but only he can answer
at what I mean. He quit over moral and ethical
grounds. We don't know when he believed
that he had those problems. Actually, when I was listening
to you talking to all the lawyers there, I was wondering
what Priscilla. They would think about the deal.
I know I mean it seems when you look over the deal, the victims
families had to have been consulted what's caveats
position on. How do you feel Priscilla
looking at Karla Homolka going to jail for 12 years maximum and
possibly being out earlier than that?
Well obviously it's very distressing and I have to say, I
went into my office for to quiet hours yesterday and had over 30
phone calls of people. Absolutely, outraged, I think
there is a great sense of moral outrage.
I think we have to remember that when the deal was made with
Karla Homolka, they did not have anything else and it was
enormous public pressure and fear of this person on the
street. So if there's something that I
think I heard Christy raising earlier, which is this, that
part of my own personal problem with the deal is the way it was
sold the Attorney General's, the the sort of the Michael Cote the
Maurice Eagles their way up there.
You never get to touch them. You never get to see them.
You just see their robes passing in the Halls.
They make this deal on behalf of all of us who pay their
salaries. They did man, but they were
between a rock and a hard place went they, well, why don't they
tell us that? Well, they should tell us.
I agree. But more than that they weren't
between a rock and a hard place when it came to Jane Doe.
And there was new evidence that the defense brought out at
trial, which shows that there were two assaults and that Karla
Homolka had only barely remembered one.
So, I mean, there may be grounds to reopen that matter and
there's certainly somebody in that attorney general's office.
Should tell us, what were they thinking that on the eve of her
testimony, they have to offer her.
And some new protections and the Jane Doe matter.
And the other thing is and Priscilla would be interested
in. This is that neither Jane Doe
nor her parents agreed to this sort of second deal being
offered. They were, in fact, solidly
opposed to it. They wanted no part of it and
the AG's office, which was so solicitous of the Mojave and
French families. Basically told them to take a
hike. Let's get some equal Airtime
from the Star here, your observations on the deal.
Well, it was necessary. And the the thing to look at
here is the tapes, were in the house on the 30th and the deal
was signed. The final deal was signed two
weeks later, they didn't find the tapes.
That was what they had to do, what will happen to, to Ken
Marino. I mean, I mean, a lot of people
screaming for his head, he had the tapes, while this deal was
going down. He could have brought them
forward. I mean you did when you had
them. Well, I don't think anybody
should discuss what's going to happen to mr.
Murray. Say, because there's an ongoing
investigation and we have yet to see the results of that
investigation. However, you're giving me the
legal standpoint here. The guy is in serious hot water
and should be roundly, punished for what he did John can
actually, I'm not tall Rod. I knew that I'm only defense
counsel, I'm not a prosecutor, but I can say, is the defense
counsel that my understanding of the law clearly is that you're
not permitted to suppress real evidence.
And if a lawyer comes into possession of Real evidence that
lawyers obliged to turn it over to the authorities.
And and the other thing is that if you have a question about it,
go to the Law Society, ask them for an opinion and then act on
the opinion from what you just told me, it's Case Closed, as
far as Ken Murray is concerned, let's get back to the phone,
Sherry, from Toronto. Good evening, Sherry.
Hi, what would you like to say tonight?
I'd like to know how, come, he's not getting 25 years, / murder
and additional times for each other conviction.
And how his lawyer can sit there and call him human when he's far
from Human. Yeah.
Now why is he getting 25 years and not two consecutive
sentences? Very simple?
You only got One Life to Live and so you can go out and kill
15 people and only spend 25 years.
No, you can only spend one life in jail, all right?
And you may die there. The sentence is a life
imprisonment. Nobody should ever forget that.
That's what he's sitting up at the sentence is life.
No chance of parole for 25 years.
That's right. UK.
So it's conceivable. The guy could be in For 100
years. Oh sure.
If he wants to live that long, I mean they can't imagine why
anybody would want to live that long and Kingston Penitentiary
but after 25 years you make an application that doesn't
guarantee that any success. There will be people like
civilian and other friends who will be down there to make to
make the application against him getting parole and and and God
bless them for that if that's their position and
strongly-held. I don't have any problem with
that. All right, we'll get back to
more pertinent issues about the Bernardo case.
And Carlos deal when are talk television, special continues.
After a short break. Should the crowd have cut a deal
with Karla Homolka? That's tonight's poll question.
If? Yes, you think it was proper
colleague 7022 for to know 870 4424, watch for results on City
pulse. I think when I turn on the TV, I
didn't want to hear quotes from what he said and you know, I
mean it's a sex thing beating and they were killed.
I mean these girls work Killed and their families are reliving
the events on TV. And I just don't think that it's
right. Welcome back to our talk
television, special on the Bernardo trial as a bench in,
and every other media person here, I'm sure it would agree.
This was a grueling and emotional experience, the
Bernardo trial, very tough to cover.
So, tonight, our videographer Dan pet Cove SEC.
Gotta look a closer look at the media by turning his camera on
the people behind the cameras. Why are we here then?
As I said, we report on things. We don't create, has anyone ever
called you a ghoul for being here?
Oh, yeah. Don't people come by and they
showed of their car window. Cool.
Just that cool media scum, stuff like that, we had to beginning.
We work we work described as voyeurs and just trying to sell
newspapers and that kind of thing, I think a lot of people
want to talk to myself, coming the furniture.
This is all, you know, you sick and blah blah blah and why would
you guys do that? But as details start to emerge
about Karla Homolka, Roll all of a sudden at the table's turned,
there's more than just a double murder here.
This is about a system that deals with criminals to get
other criminals Karla. Homolka was sentenced in a
one-day closed-door session. Two years ago there was a
publication ban slept on that. I think that people wanted to
know, no matter how chilling at horrific the details of the
crimes were to see that Justice was being served because of
course, they did not see that in the Karla Homolka trial, these
were bright young women at the In the prime of their lives.
And I think by being here every day and writing about and giving
it a lot of attention that we made them important to
everybody. I hope so.
I mean that's what it's all about.
And also to know that you know, evil walks Among Us, I mean it
lives next door, it's got blond hair and blue eyes and it's
cute. As a bug in it can charm the
pants off your parents and you know, office sometimes.
So I think it's all really important.
I was anxious to be here and certainly from a professional
perspective. It's probably the biggest story
all ever cover in my life. Nothing could Prepare you for
the reality of sitting through three and a half, four months of
just the most despicable nauseating.
It's just evil in that corner. It's intrusive later on in your
day or it is a part of your life that you you would stumble up.
You're definitely going to stumble upon it.
Later on everyone exposed to this for months.
Horror show comes away with their own unique, mix of pain
and understanding. However, most agree, it's far
better to know the Then it is to live in ignorance.
I'm Dan petkovic outside the university courthouse for City
pulse, there were people critical of the media's handling
of the Bernardo try one of them on the phone now.
Karen from Downsview. Karen, good evening, hello.
How are you fine? Thank you.
What would you like to say tonight?
Well I understand you know all the coverage during the trial
and I was watching it to my husband wouldn't watch if he was
very upset by it but as a woman and a potential victim my you
know I was in Arrested as well, but I feel that now we're all
playing into this media, frenzy frenzy by watching programs like
this. And I know, I can't turn away
either. I'd like to be able to turn the
TV off. Do you think maybe we're venting
a little bit? We have to know more about why
this happened, and maybe understand a little bit about
ourselves as a society as a whole, I think so.
And I think that part of it is seeing as much of as much as
possible on Paul himself and just trying to Then I just can't
understand myself. But the problem is, is that I
think that we've removed ourselves from Kristen and
Leslie and we've become desensitized, and the fact is
that nothing can bring these girls back and it's all the more
horrific that we've turned it into and almost entertainment by
trying to study Paul. And it had to be covered
nonetheless care. And I thank you for calling and
I'm not trying to cut you off, but we do have to move along
here. Been, I think we all suffered
some bruises on our psyche as a Result of this thing.
Yeah, I don't know if I'd go as far as saying this
entertainment. It's gotta be covered.
This is this is an important trial only because there was so
much public interest in it long before Karla Homolka is trial.
When Kristen French went missing one of the things that is hard
for reporter is and I don't think I don't know if others
would agree with me here. A criminal trial isn't really
about the victims, it's about the accused.
So it turns out about whether he's guilty or not, and yes, it
is very hard to you. Can't lose focus on Kristen,
French and Leslie. Mahaffy, that just can't happen.
But at As you are talking about his route you know his guilt or
innocence ships from the crime to the accused in the process.
He goes through Christy. What do you think?
Let me get over here of the microphone.
First of all. Well I mean I think the last
thing the media was any of us were in this case was
insensitive I think none of us. Forgot about Kristen French her
Leslie mahaffy I certainly didn't and I don't think anybody
did. This was a this was a terrible
thing and every day you sat in that courtroom I think it's
important for people like the our last caller to know this
every day we sat in that courtroom we thought of her.
We sat right beside her parents, their parents and we you know, I
mean our pains fraction. I'm not pretending it's
anything, but but everybody felt awful everything that the
defense lawyers felt lousy. I mean that the prosecution felt
lousy, this was a terrible thing and nobody forgot.
I mean, this was the worst example that caller could have
picked to say that this was entertainment.
This was entertainment for nobody, nobody wanted.
This is entertainment, Marianne Boucher.
You were there every day in the court, it's your job as a court
graphic artist to do this. Sketches as you're doing that,
you're hearing all this stuff. What goes through your mind?
Well, I'm certainly at the beginning, it was It was pretty
horrific, of course, but I tried to find a focus that to get
something out of it. And I think that why we were why
we were all there is because who we value, we value people who
are young and strangers who are victimized plucked off the
streets. That's one of our greatest fears
because we don't really give enough value to people who
aren't strangers of their victims because I work in the
courts, I see it all the time and that's what I wanted.
Come have come out of this was that there's a big, big thing.
We have to look at, we have to stop focusing on The Sensational
ization of it in the sense that they were strangers, your
thoughts? I don't think the victims will
ever be forgotten. And yes, the moments after the
verdict, the press conference that was held outside in the
steps of the courthouse, the media there were hundreds of
people and Dan Mojave came out with his family and Made up a
prepared statement, and and mr. French.
Komodo did the same half words. And there were many wet eyes and
that crowd, and I don't think the media ever going to forget
what they heard in that courtroom.
I don't think people are ever gonna forget about these young
women. I want to ask you from being,
from the Rape Crisis Center and and the position that Carla took
of being bruised in the abused battered wife syndrome, she
would not be a poster girl. No, she wouldn't be a poster
girl for battered wife syndrome, which is kind of a lousy concept
anyways, but I believe she was battered and she was treated
very horribly by this man. But she everyone has to take
responsibility for their behavior, many, many, many
battered women. The the moment that they run is
the moment that the violence affects someone else.
That is most often when, when in my experience battered, women
leave the home or change the situation or decide this is
getting to be too much, so I will.
I think it would be a mistake to say that Karla Homolka was a
typical anything frankly and and it's a very complex situation
and issues of violence are very complex and I think one thing
we're always trying to do is make them very simple so that we
can understand them so that we can explain it and then we can
put the blame in one place, and then it goes away because then
it's all explained and wrapped up nicely.
And and this case of if, anything is shown as how complex
violence sexual violence, physical Silence.
Pornography, all of these elements how complex it is a
little beast factors enter into it.
That earlier, you know, in terms of our interest in this case, do
you think there is an element of that that this is a stranger
abducting strangers? So we're attracted to it, you
get calls every day, you know, those cases, if they want to
trial you certainly wouldn't see risers being put up outside 361
University and daily coverage of it.
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think the frightening
thing about this case for most people was who the who Paul and
Karla are the blond blue-eyed typical young, you know, health
bar. Barbie and Ken are being can and
that's what shocks people so much and I do.
I do believe sometimes the media really does focus on the
stranger situations. Frankly, if the media were to
report every rape and every case of abuse that goes on, the media
would have no room for anything else in the pages of its
newspaper. So no question.
We don't let me just, I'm sorry. Brazilian, we have a fax.
Just came in saying as a man, I'm ashamed as a father, I'm
outraged now that this part is over it really isn't over and
never will be Many more Paul Bernardo is the route there who
will protect the rest. Canadian law will have to
change. Its the only protection we can
turn to him to all. You had to sit beside this guy
for a long time and I saw you interviewed by bench in last
week or so. And you said it, you know,
really wasn't all that terrible. A lot of people would say, how
could you sit next to a monster and talk to this guy and and
interact with him for two and a half years?
That was my job to get inside this man's head to find out the
facts. To assist both counsel and
originally mr. Murray in putting this case
together. Did you feel like you had to run
home and take a shower every time you spent some time with
this guy? No, no.
It's my responsibility to do that and you do it to the best
of your ability, you have to put it into perspective, you have to
take your own personal feelings and put them aside and do your
job, but you do have personal feelings and obviously they're
there and I'm interested in what some of them are It's the Acts
were horrific and there's no getting around that.
But as a member of the legal Community, I feel I have a
responsibility to ensure that Justice is done appropriately.
And sometimes that means that you can't have your own personal
feelings, you have to just do what you think is best.
And in this case, I tried to do the best I could and maybe in
the future I'm going to have to deal with these personal
feelings that I've had to. Decide post-traumatic stress
sort of thing. I can't necessarily say that it
might be. All right, let's get back to the
phones Richards on the line from Scarborough Richard.
Good evening, yes. Hi, what would you like to say
to me? Yes, my question is for mr.
Rosen. How do you feel about the
verdict of first-degree murder for Paul?
Bernardo, when I from what I've seen in and read it was
basically his word against hers on who did The Killing.
That's right. And quite frankly when It comes
to her word, or she told me it was Daylight.
I'd have to go outside and check to see the sun shining.
So I wouldn't believe anything she says.
Now, on the other hand, there was a lot of circumstantial
evidence that a jury could use to make certain inferences and
one never knows how they arrived at their verdict.
I think that part of the problem was the judges charge to the
jury didn't make the law of murder.
Very clear. That's why we're appealing
Michael John Rosen here said earlier on that, he's the
greatest lawyer in Ontario so Something like this, didn't you
say that? You ver know, Ray Houlihan said
it twice and been asked me if I agreed with Rahul.
And I said, I didn't agree very much with that, but and the
checks in the mail, Michael would, you have taken the same?
Tack is John Rosen, did, if you were defending Bernardo, I don't
know. I don't know if I'd have called
him as a witness Well I'm not sure wasn't for the benefit of
those at home. John Rosen just said if you
don't call him he's dead in the water.
Why wouldn't you have called him?
I don't think the the defense case was any stronger than after
Miss Homolka was cross-examined and I think it went downhill
with mr. Bernardo because of the way he
testified and that's hindsight of course and I'm not sure I
would have done the same way Monday.
Let's get back to the phones. Nancy's on the line for
Mississauga. Good evening, Nancy.
What would you like to say tonight?
My question is directed. Ogden.
I wanted to know how he can sit there and smile, pretty for the
camera, but not only that. How can he go to sleep at night
knowing that he's taking taxpayers money to defend this
criminal? Well Nancy, let me tell you
something. The system is there not for the
Paul bernardo's of the world but it's there to protect people
like you and I and if the system doesn't work for Paul, Bernardo
it won't work for you. If you get charged in a won't
work for me. So, I'm there for you, not for
necessarily for him. You got the feeling that you're
Some of the hate directed at Bernardo that it's that, you
know, it's some of its piling up on your head, it comes with the
territory. I mean, it's been happening for
25 years so it's not unusual. But, you know, I wish people
would stop and think about what they're saying, this particular
case was a Vindication of Canadian Justice.
We didn't have the media circus and the shenanigans that have
been going on in l.a. mr. Brian.
And I miss Stewart. Mrs. Doyle all started out.
This case was resolved not to Turn the trial into another o.j.
Simpson trial, and I think everybody should be proud of the
fact that the system worked our talk television special, on the
Bernardo case and Carlos deal will continue after a break.
We're counting your vote, 870 2242.
If you think the crown should have cut a deal with Karla
Homolka, 870 4424 if no, you do not, we'll update the numbers
all night. Blonde give you the final tally
tomorrow night at six, they should be killed for what they
did because they murdered someone they deserve to be
murdered themselves and as Republican are.
Do he deserves worse? He put those girls to hell and
he deserves hell himself. So yeah, capital punishment
should be reinstated in Canada. Coming close to the end of our
program tonight. Only a couple of minutes left.
The last from, for some final thoughts been.
Well, I guess a couple of weeks ago, one of the other newspaper
columnist, not Christie said that.
There are no winners in this trial, and I, it was in a
different context, but I have to strongly disagree with the
thought tonight. I think Society was a great
winner in this. It was a horrible, horrible
trial, but somehow the system was able to manage it.
The judge was able to manage it. The defense lawyers were able to
the crown were able to the media were able to, the public is good
and angry about Carla's deal and that's A good thing because we
keep that's the way we keep bureaucrats accountable to us
and politicians accountable to us.
But the whole thing did work on a personal level for all that
winning that I've talked about, you walk away from this and you
are scarred and you cannot forget the victims.
That's that's the one thing. When I first started, this
trial, I thought that I would be struck by the horror forever.
The horror Slips Away. The shock Slips Away.
I think the victims families will remain this given John
know, you'll have to carry this one around for the rest of your
life. Obviously you feel.
You did the best job? You could, but if ending a guy
like this must I don't know. Must make your skin crawl at
some point. No actually being able to defend
and put on a defense of viable defense, front of a jury
actually makes me feel good because it means that I did my
duty jury disagreed with our position.
But at least as I said before the system worked and it means I
can defend the next person with the same Vigor in the same
confidence, in the system, Priscilla, our thoughts and
hearts must be with the victims and their families tonight.
And he has, certainly they have now got to pick up the pieces
and try to move on. But I think the one listen, this
come out of this is that we must never forget any of the victims
of any of these horrendous trials.
And I think ought to it's all too easy.
And hopefully, if one good thing is to come out of that, it said
we were understand the horror and the pain that is perpetrated
on innocent people. Thank you Priscilla.
And thank each and every one of you for being here tonight, we
sincerely. Appreciate your thoughts and
your insights into the Case and we pretty well, run out of time.
We'll have the final results of our phone poll question.
Should the crown of cut a deal with Karla Homolka on City pulse
at 6:00 tomorrow evening? And for more news, watch for
March daily later tonight at 11:00 and behalf of everyone
here. Thanks for tuning in and good
night from City pulse.