1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,680 I started Vancouver True Crime, which was my original platform 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,800 and it just a boom because they seem to be, I don't think 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,080 there's a little investigative journalism as they used to be, 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,680 like the way I grew up with, you know, watch like A&E shows and 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,160 which I loved or Unsolved Mysteries, which maybe you know, 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,960 more of a entertainment, but I always like that very hardcore 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,040 journalism, you know, look for the pieces of evidence, follow 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,640 the trail wherever the evidence leave no spin. 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,960 No, you know, right. And, and I, and I, so I try to 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,960 bring that to table by bringing like really breaking down what 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,480 exactly took place in these horrific crimes, because I feel 12 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:47,040 that a lot of times in the media and maybe even social media with 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,640 like click baity, either there, there's one ass that gets so 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,840 focused on. Like for me, the Picton thing, 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,760 the the headline is all this crazy pig farmer murdered women 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,280 and fed them to the pigs and the story, right? 17 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,640 And there's a lot more to the story. 18 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,280 Obviously there's a lot more, a lot more depth to it. 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,600 And that to me, in my opinion, the least important part of the 20 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,280 story, if that makes sense. And and if that you know what I 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,560 mean, the more important is why it was allowed to go on for 20. 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,520 So I'm not trying not to swear, but why it was allowed to go on 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,080 for as long as it didn't. All the red flags with all the, 24 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,320 you know, people involved. This guy wasn't way out in the 25 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:26,280 Bush. He wasn't like in rural Florida 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,560 or way up in middle of nowhere. He was half an hour from a major 27 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,320 city who butchered pigs illegally on his property for 20 28 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:36,000 years. And you know, most disgusting 29 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,400 horrific conditions like why was even not even allowed to 30 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,720 continue the way he was treating his animals and stuff. 31 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,040 And from reports, I understand the way he treated animals were 32 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,960 were completely barbaric too. So there's so many aspects of 33 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:54,080 this case that I feel that's been glossed over and that's why 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,240 I really appreciate what both of you are doing it. 35 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,920 And at the end of the day, why the most important thing is, is 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,200 how the victims were treated and how they, the family victims are 37 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,360 still are treated, you know, So, you know, it's pretty awful, 38 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:10,280 yeah. Well, that's definitely 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,040 something that drew me to this case as well. 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:17,400 It's just I grew up and I went to high school and the wall 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:24,840 beside me in my high school law class was newspaper cutouts of 42 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,600 the Robert Picton case. So I grew up thinking, there's 43 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,160 this man who murdered all of these people. 44 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:37,560 And I, I kept that in my mind as like, a factual piece of 45 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,120 knowledge. But at the longest, I mean, it 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,720 wasn't until 2020 with a deep dive that I realized, whoa, 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,440 there's a lot more, Yeah, lot more to this story. 48 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:52,240 And you're right. Illegal, you know, issues with 49 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,640 animals, not to mention the fact that Piggy's palace was 50 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:58,600 continuously being did and in trouble because they violated 51 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,680 fire codes and nothing ever happened there. 52 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,280 So there's there's a lot of interesting troubling 53 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:12,000 curiosities around this case. Because I grew up in Vancouver 54 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,720 and I mean, I've grown up, I've known some pretty, you know, 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,320 scary dudes. I, you know, my older brother 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:23,280 was a legitimate tough guy. His the word on the street while 57 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,160 the story was breaking down was what was going on there 58 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,400 primarily besides of, you know, the Piggy Palace, which was a it 59 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,480 was, it was like a thriving nightclub. 60 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,280 You know, May 1020, I heard some nights made-up to forty $50,000 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:39,720 a day. Then there's drug sales that 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,480 they did. There never was facilitating 63 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,120 prostitutes at the Piggy Palace parties, right? 64 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,960 Then there was the the rooster fighting that was a big money 65 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,120 maker. The there was the call a stolen 66 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,840 car ring. But the most disgusting thing, 67 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,120 and this is goes way back from what I've heard, you know, from 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,120 from sources that were, you know, I would say pretty 69 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,120 credible. They were saying straight up 70 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,280 they were making snuff movies at the farm. 71 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,280 And that goes back. Those rumors even go back to the 72 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:12,120 80s in the 1980s. Myself researching this case, 73 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,120 I've never seen any evidence of actual like having, you know, 74 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,079 finding like film production stuff like that. 75 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:22,840 But who knows, right? One thing I did find when I was 76 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:28,200 digging deeply into an archive, there was a little article was 77 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,600 in the Vancouver Sun and they talked about these nights they 78 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,360 had there. They called it blood sports. 79 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,520 So basically these scumbags were paying to facilitate these 80 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,440 nights where these scumbags were going on the farm to beat the 81 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,920 crap out of these women probably to an inch of their life, maybe 82 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,400 murdering them if it was being filmed, who knows, right? 83 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,320 It came back, came out in the trial a little bit and cross 84 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,040 examination, even mentioning blood sports, you know, so it's 85 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,320 very chilling, right? It's, it's very, it's really 86 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,680 chilling. Plus there's a DNA evidence 87 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:04,160 that, you know, male DNA 580 DNA profiles, half of them are 88 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:05,360 males. Who are these men? 89 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,400 So we get I think we got the sanitized, you know, like it's 90 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,560 all picked in personally, what I think I think he did murder 91 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:13,480 women. Absolutely. 92 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,800 I think he you know that that was his you know, definitely did 93 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,720 that. You know, evidence points that, 94 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,680 however, I believe he was also a clean up person if he got my 95 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,960 drift. Criminal element that takes the 96 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,200 bodies to the farm to removal to get rid of them. 97 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,000 You know it your failure. BCBC is this rife with organized 98 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,920 crime like absolutely and and and it has been for a very long 99 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,320 time. You know, so there's there's 100 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,680 definitely more of a story. There is a story being 101 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,520 suppressed. There's you know, and then 102 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,440 there's something really disturbing. 103 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,160 Two weeks before he was arrested, he was paid a visit. 104 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,000 I think I have the cops name paid a visit to Pickton and and 105 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,760 and told them like, Hey, you know, you're being right and 106 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,880 even giving them even giving picked in the confidential 107 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,720 informants name. Was that Lynn Ellison right, 108 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,320 informing him, Hey, do you know this person's talking about you? 109 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,440 You know that there are, you know why, like, you know, like 110 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,720 that that's really odd. So there's a lot of odd stuff. 111 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,200 You know, why was he allowed to do it for the long why? 112 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:19,640 You know the why, Why why, why is right so. 113 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,280 I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever about Picton's 114 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:25,840 involvement or the fact that he is. 115 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,240 He's definitely a guilty party. But I think the question has 116 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,760 always been, is he the only guilty party? 117 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,440 And I think the preponderance of evidence shows probably not. 118 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,680 Most likely not. And that I get in a way and in 119 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,800 part is what the whole Preserve the Evidence campaign is about. 120 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:49,120 It's about making sure that we're doing our due diligence 121 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,080 and asking those questions. As you can see from the trial 122 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,640 itself, the jury had questions as to what Robert's role in all 123 00:06:55,640 --> 00:07:00,080 of this was and whether he was a sole perpetrator. 124 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,480 So these are these are the big questions. 125 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,160 Well, maybe so you could talk about maybe the legal aspects of 126 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,760 it because again, maybe the first thing is as simple as 127 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,800 this, right? I know this is a massive 128 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,200 historical case for BC law. However, there has been big 129 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,240 cases, you know, in our history, right? 130 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,600 Is this unusual for them to destroy evidence? 131 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,200 Like is that is that that in itself? 132 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,880 Is that an unusual thing? I mean, that's a an interesting 133 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,400 question. I think the the better question 134 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:35,200 to ask is what are best practices and what are standards 135 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,920 for MIK herbation in cases like this. 136 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,000 And the reason I say that isn't is because everything about the 137 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,440 picked in case is unusual and like from start to finish. 138 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:52,040 And so then to me, it comes down to what should we be expecting 139 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:56,680 out of an investigation of this scale and magnitude and 140 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,040 significance. The reality is that what 141 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,920 happened on the Picton farm and all of the, you know, activities 142 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,480 that we know and suspect happened there have touched 143 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,120 many, many, many lives. And, you know, I also live in 144 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:16,120 British Columbia. And, yeah, I see how organized 145 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,520 crime, I see how cases like the Picton case shape the world that 146 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,800 we live in here in Denver. And they shape a lot of the 147 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,320 culture and they shape a lot of the history, particularly in the 148 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,040 Downtown East Side. And that didn't start with the 149 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,800 Picton Farm. And that doesn't end with the 150 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:38,400 Picton Farm in terms of the stuff that was going on that led 151 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,360 those women to the farm in the 1st place or is rooted in 152 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:47,840 extreme poverty, is treated in exploitation of women, misogyny, 153 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:54,360 racism, institutional failures on every scale to, you know, 154 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,640 provide for the basic necessities of life and a 155 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,680 dignified life in human rights on east side. 156 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:07,040 And what happened on the Picton farm was a depraved outcome, 157 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,720 like the the depraved logical outcome of a culture that allows 158 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,360 all of that to happen in the 1st place and and provides for 159 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,840 someone like Robert Picton to act with and, and whomever else 160 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,080 was involved to act with impunity. 161 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,720 Act. Hopefully we have that backdrop 162 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:31,040 and then we have the what we also know to be the largest 163 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,440 investigation in Canadian history. 164 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,120 They I believe, I'm not entirely sure what the scale of evidence 165 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,920 was that that they had in the Olson case, but obviously that 166 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,800 was a large number of of victims and I'm sure a lot of physical 167 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,040 evidence, but nothing compares to the physical evidence they 168 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,600 collected from the fiction farm and related associates. 169 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,520 And we don't actually know what a lot of that evidence was 170 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,840 because very, very a portion of it was actually used in trial to 171 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,600 convict Robert Picton. And so, but what we have heard 172 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,560 at least you know, anecdotally and what I believe to be true is 173 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:10,360 there was about 200,000 physically exhibits that were 174 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,280 collected from the farm and related properties and has been 175 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:19,200 sword for what 20 years now. So what I can say is of that the 176 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:25,160 the sheer size and sheer volume being completely unusual thing. 177 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,880 And then you know, them coming and saying at this state less 178 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,200 than 20 years after he exhausted his appeals, barely less than 20 179 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:38,160 years since he was convicted and really only 20 years since the 180 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,640 the farm was actually searched is really short period of time 181 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:47,360 in relation to other cold case homicides. 182 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,560 And when we look, you know, we've done a bunch of research 183 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:56,040 obviously on the standards best practices is for evidence 184 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,880 retention and cold case homicides. 185 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,080 And we've looked to other jurisdictions, we've spoken with 186 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,480 experts in other jurisdictions about like what the standards 187 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:05,720 are. There are no standards in 188 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,840 Canada. We don't have any obligations on 189 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,800 any of our law enforcement. And what we've come to 190 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,840 understand is that it's actually up to the discretion of 191 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,000 individual departments and jurisdictions as to what they do 192 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,560 with exhibits and when they seek to dispose of those exhibits. 193 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,760 The only thing I'll say from a legal perspective about the 194 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:31,240 process, there is a process that comes out of our Criminal Code 195 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,680 that provides for the disposal of evidence in the possession of 196 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:37,520 the police that they've seized in the course of an 197 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,840 investigation and not Section 490 of the Criminal Code. 198 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,640 But there is absolutely, contrary to what the RCMP are 199 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:50,440 saying, there's absolutely no obligation upon them to dispose 200 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,440 of evidence at any given time. The only obligation that rests 201 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,160 with them. They do have some obligation to 202 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,960 at some point come before court and say we've exhausted all of 203 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,840 our investigative leads. We don't believe this evidence 204 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,800 has any more value to any investigation, therefore we 205 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,000 would like to dispose of it or return it. 206 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,480 There's no obligation on them to come to that point until they've 207 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,920 decided and made the decision that they've exhausted all of 208 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,280 their investigative leads in the case. 209 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:26,200 And I don't see how it's fathomable based upon the scale 210 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,480 of evidence, the volume of evidence, the number of unsolved 211 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,240 cases, the number of potential Co conspirators that they could 212 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,920 possibly have an exhausted all investigative leads in this case 213 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,600 and I so that is what legally we take issue with. 214 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,920 Maybe break this down a little bit because you know, I have a, 215 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,960 you know, a fair size American audience and they don't 216 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,920 understand certain things like when I talk or talk about 217 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,040 charges being stayed. And then Robert picked his case 218 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,320 right. He was charged with for six 219 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,880 counts of second degree murder. 26. 220 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,640 Sorry, 26 all together. Sorry, I might have but such. 221 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:12,600 Indictments. 27 indictments. 27 Yeah, there was a Jane Doe that 222 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,920 was dropped and now and then there was another 20 and then 223 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,320 those charges were stayed. So for especially, maybe even 224 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,960 for Canadian audience too because of for the, you know, 225 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,960 people listening, what does it mean when they stay the charges? 226 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,960 Well, there's different meanings for staying, like there's 227 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,240 different points at which charges could be laid against 228 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,640 somebody and then stayed or withdrawn or otherwise. 229 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,840 In this in this particular situation, they initially laid 230 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,880 27 charges and then at some point during the trial, the 231 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,240 Crown at the direction to my understanding of the Attorney 232 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:51,520 General, who at the time was Wally Opal, came to the 233 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,400 conclusion that they didn't have sufficient evidence or they felt 234 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,840 that there possibly wasn't sufficient evidence for them to 235 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,360 get a conviction on those remaining 21 charges. 236 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:07,640 And so they decided to preserve the integrity of the six cases 237 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,760 that they were proceeding with where they felt they had enough 238 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,560 evidence, they decided to stay the remaining charges. 239 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,800 And what that means is that they could at some point decide again 240 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:23,120 to come back back and recharge. But obviously that didn't happen 241 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,400 in this case been made quite clear from the attorney 242 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,960 general's communications that that that was never going to 243 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,240 happen. And since that time, the BC 244 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,440 government has made it quite clear that they feel that, you 245 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,360 know, Robert Picton has been convicted of 6 cases. 246 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,520 He's probably most likely going to spend the rest of his natural 247 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,960 life in prison. Therefore, justice has been 248 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,520 served. We want to balance the resources 249 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,640 of our justice system with, you know, the, the rights of the 250 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,360 public to be safe and the rights of, of people to have remedies 251 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,120 for the deaths of their loved ones. 252 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,040 And that's the balance that we're going to in a strike. 253 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,800 Yeah. So that's that's it in a 254 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,000 nutshell. Another question then that comes 255 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:13,320 up a lot is how come or is it still on the table for him to be 256 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:18,080 declared a dangerous offender? That's not on the table that a 257 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,160 dangerous offender legislation or designation, I should say, 258 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,120 comes out of the Criminal Code. There's a certain set of 259 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,760 criteria that are applied and usually a dangerous offender 260 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,000 application is made during sentencing and all that that 261 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,120 really means is that somebody has an indeterminate sentence 262 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,840 and they don't have the ability to do. 263 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,920 They have a stronger threshold essentially to overcome in order 264 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,880 to be able to come before the parole board for some form of 265 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,040 conditional release. Whereas somebody who's serving a 266 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,720 life sentence, the maximum parole ineligibility date is 25 267 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,040 years, and then it can be set lower depending upon what the 268 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,440 court decides. So in both cases, whether you're 269 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,120 a dangerous offender or you're serving a life sentence, you're 270 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,160 actually serving an indeterminate sentence. 271 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,240 The only difference is that for lifers, they have a parole 272 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:12,520 eligibility date and dangerous offenders do not. 273 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:17,040 OK. Yeah, yeah, it's it's so 274 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,000 disturbing like this again, right when you talk with it for 275 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,360 myself, when I when I research this case first is just the 276 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,600 sheer number of victim. The victim pool is massive. 277 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,280 And then I was reading, I forget which books I've been reading 278 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:34,640 three different books for sourcing information seem I'm so 279 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,600 I don't recall which book, but it was one. 280 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,080 I do believe it was one that Stevie Cameron wrote. 281 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,480 I believe it was the picked in files and 1:00 when he was put 282 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:50,160 into a cell, the the he he taught and they had the 283 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,200 informant in the cell and, you know, they had the picture of 284 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,840 the missing women in the interviewing room. 285 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,080 I guess to kind of get under his skin or something. 286 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,680 You know what he said, he said that he didn't. 287 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,720 He said that, you know, he didn't, you know, did the 288 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,280 admission of 49 that he murdered, but he said he said he 289 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,560 didn't recognize half those women there. 290 00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:13,640 So that that that, you know, I don't know if he's just saying 291 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,560 that to both. But however, when you have like 292 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,359 situations where he had in mission in 1995 when they found 293 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:25,000 the half a skull cut in half, you know, far away from the farm 294 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,839 and then the bones that match on his farm, you know, in the pig 295 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,600 pen, there's probably, you know, just speculation here. 296 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,600 Of course, there's probably other body parts have been shrun 297 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,360 all over because I I don't see how that could be the only one 298 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:39,360 that one time he decided to frisbee it. 299 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,000 You know, again, I'm not I'm not trying to be disrespectful to 300 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,520 the victims. It's kind of little gallows 301 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,400 humor. But it's like that. 302 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,840 You're saying that one time when he was driving down the freeway 303 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,720 decided to, you know, fling a skull out the window. 304 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,440 You know what I mean? Like it like there's so many 305 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,960 strange aspects to this case, right? 306 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,960 And and again with the again, we've been emphasizing the mass 307 00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,920 amount of unidentified DNA on the on, you know, it was male 308 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,400 and body parts that were also found not on the farm, right? 309 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,960 So you would think then that there is possibility for more 310 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,560 bodies not on the farm to be discovered and maybe it'd be 311 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,120 good idea to hang on to that evidence because they might, it 312 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:23,200 might match to what they have, you know, just. 313 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,680 Add on to that too, I mean, Sasha and I visited the location 314 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:32,120 where the mission Jones alright, mission Jane Doe skull was found 315 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,200 and it I mean it's really at the next like the a point where two 316 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,320 rivers meet. And really, I, I mean, I think 317 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,160 my hypothesis, I don't know if you share this view, Sasha, but 318 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,080 my hypothesis is that that that came from the water and that, 319 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:53,080 OK, of course, the Fraser River runs right behind the picked in. 320 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,000 Right, quite. Close to the. 321 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,440 Well, that's interesting you were thought of that. 322 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,160 I mean, just body disposal in a river like that. 323 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:06,120 I mean, I think it would be difficult to recover bodies in 324 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:08,000 that situation. And I have no idea whether they 325 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,520 dredged the river. I doubt they did in behind the 326 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,360 picked in farm, but there's a very high likelihood that that 327 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,880 that could have been a body disposal location as well. 328 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,240 I completely agree with you. I completely agree. 329 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,000 Just the idea that they would have been throwing body to parts 330 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,160 out of a car window at the time that they're driving over. 331 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,640 It doesn't make any sets however. 332 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,960 And when you go to that site you realize where it was located, 333 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:37,400 where it was found. It was. 334 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,520 No, this comes from the water. Right, that's interesting. 335 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,440 They they talk about like a substance that's easy found on 336 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:48,880 bones. I just can't remember the name 337 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,120 of it, but it was like, so it's been, it's speculated that we 338 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:55,040 obviously from the time, it's probably was in water for some 339 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,120 time too. That's that waxy substance. 340 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:02,240 Yeah, the waxy, I can't, I just can't recall what it's called, 341 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,720 right? Yeah, I don't know. 342 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,240 It, it, it, it this honestly, it, it's a, it's a case for me. 343 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,200 And I'm sure you feel this way, both of you. 344 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,960 It's like generally I'm pretty and I'm good at detaching 345 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,600 myself. There's certain cases that do 346 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,160 get under my skin, like the Highway of cure stuff really 347 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,080 upsets me and I have to stop because I, I actually start 348 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,960 feeling myself getting very like really affected by it. 349 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,400 Because again, it's very similar to the Picton thing in the 350 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,560 regard to, Oh yeah, these women died. 351 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,320 They're probably hitchhiking, you know, you know, and it's 352 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,440 just, it's just like it, it, it pisses me off again because 353 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,800 it's, again, it's a, it's a huge amount of time. 354 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,200 And you know, they, it's almost like, again, I'm not trying to 355 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:49,080 be disparaging to the RCMP, but any time they do these massive 356 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,480 multi $1,000,000 cases, it's sort of like what's the boil 357 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,960 down of it? Then the, the, what's the last 358 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,840 paragraph is, is what if you get my drift? 359 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,280 Right? Like it's all we're going to do 360 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,920 better, you know, like we're going to try harder and catch 361 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,640 the person that do this, you know, like, I don't know, it's a 362 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,040 very frustrating. I would say, Mark, I know I, I 363 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,240 do want to be disparaging towards the RCMP because I mean, 364 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,640 at least the work that we do here at Justice for Girls has 365 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,680 historically been police accountability work. 366 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,840 And for nearly two decades, we've been working on cases of 367 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,320 missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls and girls who 368 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:31,480 live in poverty. And the overwhelming theme of 369 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,400 the work that we do is that the police do not do thorough 370 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:41,760 investigations into those cases. And we have multiple cases and 371 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,720 Sasha and I are working on a few of them where we don't think 372 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,760 that the police and it's RC, it's, it's not just the RCMPI 373 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,680 would say because the RCMP, it does so much municipal policing 374 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,400 in British Columbia, overwhelming the the arts in the 375 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,040 province, but also municipal police forces. 376 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,480 I start to question whether they even know, you know, what what 377 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,240 the standards of policing are these days and what expectations 378 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,680 are from the police. Because I would expect a 379 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,240 thorough investigation would include collecting physical 380 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,440 evidence at the scene of a suspicious death. 381 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,200 I would expect they would include a full autopsy, which 382 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,600 would include a rape kit in a case involving a vulnerable 383 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,920 Indigenous young woman. I would expect that it would 384 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,360 include a thorough investigation of how a missing child from 385 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,760 foster care went missing for a year and was yes, and dead and 386 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,360 decomposing in the apartment of a serial predator in the 387 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:41,320 downtown. Soup one. 388 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,960 Noello soup. Oh, soup, Who else? 389 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,880 Yeah, Noello soup. I would expect that suspicious 390 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,040 deaths where there's been an opioid death isn't simply 391 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,760 written off as a drug toxicity accidental death, and there's 392 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,800 some level of investigation done into the circumstances that led 393 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,840 to that death. But time and time and time 394 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,240 again, we don't see that. And what we also don't see is 395 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,720 throw investigations into, we may have an opioid death or we 396 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,440 may have something that looks like an accidental or natural 397 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,360 death, but it's a vulnerable young indigenous woman living in 398 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,360 poverty. How the hell did she get in that 399 00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:19,160 SRO in the 1st place? Oh, just hitched by way of tears 400 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,680 in the first place. And what we don't often see and 401 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,640 what we come to see time again in our work is we believe 402 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,560 there's sexual exploitation and trafficking happening. 403 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,040 It was never investigated in the 1st place and continues to not 404 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,920 be addressed or investigated after their death as a potential 405 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,120 circumstance leading to that death. 406 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,560 And that was very much the case in the Picton investigations as 407 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,600 well. And it's a big living question. 408 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,920 Along with the suspicions around snuff films is suspicions around 409 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,640 a potential trafficking ring or sexual exploitation. 410 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,360 You know, it's very possible that there were people in the 411 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:59,520 Downtown Eastside engaging in sex work consensually. 412 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,480 I'm not suggesting otherwise. But there is also a very large 413 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,440 potential that there were women and girls there who who weren't 414 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,320 choosing to be there and were yes, there will all of these 415 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,720 looming questions that we sometimes refuse to answer. 416 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,640 And I think the police don't do a good job. 417 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,840 So I I do I I don't think the RCMP have discharged their duty 418 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,160 of due diligence in the Picton case and continue to fail to do 419 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,240 so in multiple cases involving marginalized women and girls. 420 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,280 Yeah, just to add what you had to say, I think that there's 421 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,120 also a very strong level of of state responsibility here as 422 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:38,600 well. Mark, you're talking about how 423 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,320 upsetting the Highway of Tears is and all the issues up there. 424 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,400 And you also have to realize for years and years and years, 425 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,560 people have asked for more funding or even just funding in 426 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,680 general for things like streetlights along the highways 427 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,240 or adequate transportation so they're not having to hitchhike 428 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,480 or cell service. And the fact that that's not 429 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,240 provided. And if funding is provided, then 430 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,120 eventually it's withdrawn or restricted so much that you 431 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:02,880 can't actually input that necessary critical 432 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,640 infrastructure to stay safe. And unfortunately, it does tend 433 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,920 to be women and girls that are disproportionately targeted by 434 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,200 offenders in those areas. Between you and me and this is a 435 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,200 thought I've had since I started this platform and I've talked to 436 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,680 a lot of people, like even people that are one guy I talked 437 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,160 to, he's just got out of the life. 438 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,600 He was involved in that selling drugs for pretty scary people in 439 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,920 Downtown Eastside. In his opinion, as much as we 440 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,560 know how many drug sales are, especially the Downtown 441 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,320 Eastside, He says that the revenue from human trafficking 442 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,240 is is higher now because it's almost, I hate to say it, 443 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,480 especially here. It's a perfect crime if you're 444 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,440 if I'm me, Mark wants to start as cartel. 445 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,280 Well, I need to put some money together to start buying mass 446 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,520 amounts of cocaine, right? If I want to start human 447 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,000 trafficking, I can just abduct a woman, right? 448 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,040 Not that I would, but I'm in business, right? 449 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,640 And he and he's talked some pretty scary things and other 450 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,800 people have told me about this stuff as well. 451 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:15,040 And I also do podcasts with this guy named David who used to be a 452 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,760 a mob hitman, Colombian cartels, Mexican cartels, you know, every 453 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,200 person that's scary on the face there at this guy worked for 454 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,840 him. He ran a building in blood alley 455 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,600 and he was a bodyguard for the head honcho that was running at 456 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,640 and, and the stuff he told tells me it's just, is this the, is 457 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,040 this the same city I live in where this is loud to go on, 458 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,760 right? And we're talking massive drug 459 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,880 sales. He told me that some days they 460 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,960 had $100,000 days in drug sales at that in their building, 461 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,560 right. So if you think about it, if 462 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,400 human trafficking is, is that par or bigger? 463 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,680 It's just the, the, the, the, the possibilities of that just 464 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,360 just completely blow my mind and, and scary as well. 465 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:01,520 It's it's, it's extremely scary. And then it then on top of it 466 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,200 too. It's frightening that I would 467 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,560 have to blame men again, who facilitate this stuff. 468 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,480 You know, I'm not, you know, saying like all men that see sex 469 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,920 workers are scumbags, but a lot of them are right. 470 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,160 And a lot of them are about it to exploit, look for someone 471 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,520 more vulnerable. Look for someone that they can, 472 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,480 you know, take their, you know, I'm trying to control my what 473 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,000 I'm going to say. But you, you get the idea, 474 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,040 right? So why is there such a demand, 475 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:34,240 right? For we're not talking about high 476 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,680 end brothels or you know, escorts that work in safe 477 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,840 environments where they have drivers and stuff. 478 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,640 These are men. Think about this, you're going 479 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,960 to a pig farm or piggy palace in the middle of the night and to 480 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,520 see sex workers, right? You know what I mean? 481 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,680 Most likely those guys are going there with bad intentions. 482 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,040 And, and So what bothers me or upsets me is why is there such 483 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,680 a, a hunger for this? And you know, especially in our 484 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,360 province, in this province, right? 485 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,600 And it, and it goes on and on and gone. 486 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,280 The stuff of the Picton was the 80s through the 90s and ended 487 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,800 in, in the the 2000s. And like I said, when we first 488 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,320 started, it's even worse now. It's even more monstrous. 489 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,760 The drugs are worse. The there's more people that are 490 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,520 especially women that are vulnerable that are in these 491 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,280 vulnerable situations. And, and like you were saying, 492 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,840 Sue, where is the funding to stop this? 493 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,680 For real? Not the bullshit talking points. 494 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,720 Oh, we're going to do this. We're going to give some penance 495 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,760 amount $1,000,000 when you know, again, you're not trebling up 496 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,040 the Ukraine or other stuff. They have billions for that. 497 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,840 Billions and billions and billions and unlimited money. 498 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,960 You know, it's unlimited, but for stuff that has been going on 499 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,760 here since the 80s really, because this, this stuff, in my 500 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,040 opinion, really started in the 80s, maybe in the 70s, but 80s 501 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,400 it seemed to it started to become a destination and, and 502 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,200 you know, a few good talking points, a few good commissions, 503 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,920 you know, the question of missing women inquiry, He said, 504 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,520 Wally Opal, was he the right person for that job? 505 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,680 That's another discussion, but there, there there's something 506 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,560 at play here is what what I'm getting at. 507 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,680 There's something at play. There's a massive industry and 508 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,400 and it's sick that it's allowed to go on. 509 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,600 Never mind that it does, in my opinion. 510 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,400 Evening. And I appreciate your time and 511 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,400 I'll be in touch with you guys. OK. 512 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,640 Thanks, Sir. You're welcome. 513 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:26,760 Have a good day. Thank you again. 514 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:28,240 Bye. Bye.