1 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,840 Hello, everyone. Jonathan Kirschner here. 2 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:23,098 This is a podcast about leadership, and I'm here today 3 00:00:23,106 --> 00:00:25,200 with Jamie Ramsden. Surprise. 4 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,880 He's become a regular on the show, which I'm delighted. 5 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:33,447 And we have Ken Roberts, who is the president of Atlas 6 00:00:33,447 --> 00:00:35,435 Roofing. With a podcast about leadership, 7 00:00:35,435 --> 00:00:41,195 we could obviously talk for several hours, probably daily 8 00:00:41,195 --> 00:00:46,372 about our fascinations with leadership, theory of 9 00:00:46,372 --> 00:00:50,790 leadership, leadership science, and some of the incredible 10 00:00:50,790 --> 00:00:52,710 research that's going on around leadership. 11 00:00:52,710 --> 00:00:57,550 But this is a podcast that talks about applied leadership. 12 00:00:57,765 --> 00:01:02,005 We wanna hear from actual leaders who are in it. 13 00:01:02,005 --> 00:01:06,685 And so we have Ken here today who is in it. 14 00:01:06,805 --> 00:01:10,565 And Ken is the president of Atlas Roofing Company. 15 00:01:10,565 --> 00:01:13,790 So it's one of America's leading building materials 16 00:01:13,790 --> 00:01:18,550 manufacturers, thirty three plants and counting in North 17 00:01:18,550 --> 00:01:21,486 America. And and Ken's had a thirty 18 00:01:21,494 --> 00:01:25,110 year career at Masco Corporation prior. 19 00:01:25,215 --> 00:01:30,375 He served as president of Delta Faucet, president of Masco 20 00:01:30,375 --> 00:01:34,398 Canada, and vice president of international sales and Asian 21 00:01:34,398 --> 00:01:37,040 business. He started his career at GE's 22 00:01:37,048 --> 00:01:40,788 aircraft engine division and holds degrees from Rose Hallman 23 00:01:40,788 --> 00:01:44,360 Institute of Technology and Northwestern University. 24 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:49,858 He's also serving as president of ARMA, the Asphalt Roofing 25 00:01:49,858 --> 00:01:52,800 Industry's National Trade Association. 26 00:01:53,935 --> 00:01:57,353 And then, of course, we have our household name here, Jamie 27 00:01:57,353 --> 00:02:03,563 Ramsden, who himself, a former CEO turned CEO coach and 28 00:02:03,563 --> 00:02:07,655 coaches many CEOs and senior executives. 29 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,800 We have the pleasure of working together at AIR Consulting. 30 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:19,798 And Jamie is the author of of a really, you know, well known 31 00:02:19,798 --> 00:02:23,560 book, Let's Go, How Great Leaders Shape the Future. 32 00:02:23,785 --> 00:02:28,975 And, it's fantastic to have you here, because in addition 33 00:02:28,983 --> 00:02:33,045 to being a great guy, you're also Ken's coach, which is 34 00:02:33,045 --> 00:02:35,873 just fantastic. So thank you, Jamie and Ken, 35 00:02:35,881 --> 00:02:39,752 for being on the show today. What's the hardest decision, 36 00:02:39,752 --> 00:02:42,384 Ken? The hardest decision you've had 37 00:02:42,384 --> 00:02:46,760 to make since taking the helm at Atlas? 38 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:48,640 Okay. It's a two part question. 39 00:02:49,505 --> 00:02:53,460 Hardest decision you've had to make, and what has it taught 40 00:02:53,468 --> 00:02:55,905 you about leadership? Sure. 41 00:02:55,905 --> 00:02:58,785 By the way, first of all, thanks for thanks for having me. 42 00:02:58,785 --> 00:03:01,425 This is this is a first time thing for me. 43 00:03:01,425 --> 00:03:03,080 I'm really looking forward to it. 44 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,290 I've been fortunate. There haven't, so far we haven't 45 00:03:05,290 --> 00:03:08,440 had to make a lot of gut wrenching decisions at Atlas in 46 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,350 my time there. But during my time at Delta, we 47 00:03:12,350 --> 00:03:16,544 did several and probably the one that comes to mind as it 48 00:03:16,544 --> 00:03:19,705 relates to leadership is during the follow-up to COVID 49 00:03:19,705 --> 00:03:25,065 when supply chains became just a complete snarl, we got to a 50 00:03:25,065 --> 00:03:28,365 point where, we were just so backlogged and backed up in 51 00:03:28,365 --> 00:03:31,560 our our supply chain that we could hardly get anything 52 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,370 through. Our lead times were stretched 53 00:03:33,370 --> 00:03:35,570 out. We couldn't service our 54 00:03:35,570 --> 00:03:38,930 customers. And we were working on it. 55 00:03:38,930 --> 00:03:42,357 And I usually like to delegate to the subject matter experts 56 00:03:42,357 --> 00:03:45,643 on my team. And we kind of got to a point 57 00:03:45,651 --> 00:03:49,560 where they were just looking at me saying, Ken, we don't know 58 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:55,775 what to do. And so that was a really hard 59 00:03:55,775 --> 00:03:58,503 decision, but what we ended up doing is I said, okay, what 60 00:03:58,503 --> 00:04:01,419 we're gonna do is we're gonna take about, we're gonna take 61 00:04:01,419 --> 00:04:04,008 about fifteen percent of the items that we make and we're not 62 00:04:04,008 --> 00:04:06,000 gonna sell them for the next one hundred and twenty days. 63 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,442 No new orders. We had, and it was hard 64 00:04:09,450 --> 00:04:13,600 because we had no data to suggest that this was gonna be 65 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,735 the right approach or how people would react to it. 66 00:04:17,735 --> 00:04:21,735 It was just kind of a gut feel coming from my experience, 67 00:04:21,735 --> 00:04:25,175 having worked in supply chain earlier in my career and just 68 00:04:25,175 --> 00:04:29,055 seeing that people, we needed a direction. 69 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,920 And so we did it. And it ended up working out. 70 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,040 Our customers respected us because we just kind of went to 71 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,950 them and said, look at, this is something, we're gonna do 72 00:04:37,950 --> 00:04:41,160 something to fix this thing. But the part that really taught 73 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,567 me about leadership was it was a moment where my people were, 74 00:04:46,567 --> 00:04:50,435 despite having all of their best efforts, were looking at me 75 00:04:50,435 --> 00:04:54,257 saying, we're out of gas, we're out of ideas, and boss, 76 00:04:54,257 --> 00:04:58,565 we need you to help us. And even though I had no data 77 00:04:58,565 --> 00:05:02,460 and no analysis and even within a company like Delta, which is 78 00:05:02,460 --> 00:05:05,570 very much into structured problem solving and analysis 79 00:05:05,570 --> 00:05:09,514 based decision, I just had to kind of make a gut decision in 80 00:05:09,514 --> 00:05:13,054 the moment and then own it. And and to go forward then and 81 00:05:13,054 --> 00:05:15,265 say, and by the way, this is gonna work. 82 00:05:15,265 --> 00:05:18,785 I'm highly confident even though behind the scenes, I was 83 00:05:18,785 --> 00:05:22,155 kinda like, I really hope this works, because the team just 84 00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:24,838 needed something to get rallied around, and and that 85 00:05:24,846 --> 00:05:26,320 helped in the end. Yeah. 86 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,490 Oh my gosh. I love that example. 87 00:05:28,490 --> 00:05:32,858 And I I think back you know, I'm I'm a CEO myself, and I 88 00:05:32,858 --> 00:05:35,610 think about decisions that I've had to make. 89 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:40,230 And when you have the luxury of different data streams and being 90 00:05:40,230 --> 00:05:43,331 able to write up a thesis and saying, here's the evidence for 91 00:05:43,331 --> 00:05:45,655 why we're going to do what we're going do. 92 00:05:45,655 --> 00:05:49,538 And here's and to be able to to to show that to everyone and 93 00:05:49,538 --> 00:05:54,716 to rally around that plan, that's that's one kind of 94 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:57,460 decision. And the other is like, okay. 95 00:05:57,460 --> 00:06:02,332 I've got about, you know, fifty five to sixty percent of the 96 00:06:02,332 --> 00:06:05,517 data I need. I'm maybe if I spend another, 97 00:06:05,525 --> 00:06:08,691 you know, four months, I can get, like, another fifteen 98 00:06:08,691 --> 00:06:11,671 percent. But, like, I'm not getting above 99 00:06:11,671 --> 00:06:15,355 seventy percent of of data. And so, ultimately, I'm gonna 100 00:06:15,355 --> 00:06:19,490 need to I'm gonna have to make a call and lean into my 101 00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:22,290 experiential wisdom and my intuition. 102 00:06:22,290 --> 00:06:26,868 And that is a different type of weight on your shoulders than 103 00:06:26,868 --> 00:06:28,930 being able to say, here's here's the thesis. 104 00:06:28,930 --> 00:06:30,930 Right? The the data driven thesis. 105 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:34,717 Jamie, if you supply chain is I mean, you were immersed in 106 00:06:34,717 --> 00:06:37,125 supply chain back in the day. Yeah. 107 00:06:37,125 --> 00:06:38,525 It just makes me think about this. 108 00:06:38,525 --> 00:06:40,667 You know, I always think about that there's a couple of times 109 00:06:40,667 --> 00:06:42,775 where you really where leadership being in a 110 00:06:42,775 --> 00:06:45,405 leadership role really forces you to have courage. 111 00:06:45,405 --> 00:06:47,605 And I think this is what we're talking about. 112 00:06:47,650 --> 00:06:52,845 One is the courage of decision making, where you might be in a 113 00:06:52,845 --> 00:06:56,744 novel or a new situation, you don't have all the 114 00:06:56,744 --> 00:06:58,756 information, and people are looking to you as they 115 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:01,501 invariably do and saying, 'Okay, well where do we go from 116 00:07:01,501 --> 00:07:03,361 here?' That in itself, even if you have 117 00:07:03,361 --> 00:07:05,945 a clear eye of where it's going, you can't control all the 118 00:07:05,945 --> 00:07:08,305 variables that are at play. It does take a certain amount 119 00:07:08,305 --> 00:07:10,924 of courage, especially if you're trusting your instincts, if 120 00:07:10,924 --> 00:07:13,607 you're trusting your lived experience that may not apply 121 00:07:13,607 --> 00:07:15,105 here. There's another one that I 122 00:07:15,113 --> 00:07:17,705 sometimes think of as well, which is the courage once 123 00:07:17,713 --> 00:07:21,144 you've set something in motion and it isn't going the way you 124 00:07:21,144 --> 00:07:23,942 think it is. And I'd be interested to see if 125 00:07:23,942 --> 00:07:26,316 that happened in in this particular case, but where you 126 00:07:26,316 --> 00:07:28,700 have the courage to stick with something that you've already 127 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:30,609 done. And I think those are two areas 128 00:07:30,609 --> 00:07:33,390 where just hearing Ken talk that made me think about the 129 00:07:33,390 --> 00:07:35,473 courage that's required sometimes to be in a 130 00:07:35,473 --> 00:07:37,535 leadership role. If the trajectory is in the 131 00:07:37,535 --> 00:07:39,855 right direction, the courage to say, no, this is the right 132 00:07:39,855 --> 00:07:40,295 choice. Yeah. 133 00:07:40,295 --> 00:07:41,575 And in your case, that played out. 134 00:07:41,575 --> 00:07:43,255 It did. No. 135 00:07:43,255 --> 00:07:46,652 I see that with, you know, some some of our clients where 136 00:07:46,652 --> 00:07:49,670 they're they're putting together a transformation plan. 137 00:07:49,670 --> 00:07:52,413 And then, you know, the quarterly earnings come out and, 138 00:07:52,413 --> 00:07:56,310 you know, stocks tanked, it's like, we need time. 139 00:07:56,310 --> 00:07:57,670 This can't just happen immediately. 140 00:07:57,670 --> 00:08:01,430 Next quarter comes out, stock takes another hit. 141 00:08:01,430 --> 00:08:07,667 It's like, this is our long term plan, and it's a it is such 142 00:08:07,667 --> 00:08:12,835 a pressure cooker for leadership to stand by a 143 00:08:12,835 --> 00:08:17,170 committed strategy, but also know where to adapt as well. 144 00:08:17,170 --> 00:08:18,610 There's also a piece around that. 145 00:08:18,610 --> 00:08:23,375 So where to stay firm, where to adapt, you know, especially 146 00:08:23,375 --> 00:08:27,491 when the results don't don't quite you know, it takes time 147 00:08:27,491 --> 00:08:30,665 for the results to come. Sometimes it takes time. 148 00:08:30,665 --> 00:08:35,304 And the other thing that came to mind for me is indecision. 149 00:08:35,304 --> 00:08:38,945 Right? So when there isn't the sort of 150 00:08:39,625 --> 00:08:45,588 adequate level of courage, we can just say, we're not gonna 151 00:08:45,588 --> 00:08:49,532 make a decision. And that that could be pretty 152 00:08:49,532 --> 00:08:52,352 dangerous. Delta has a very deep catalog 153 00:08:52,352 --> 00:08:57,276 of products that go across luxury to commercial, 154 00:08:57,276 --> 00:08:59,875 etcetera. Over at that time, I think, 155 00:08:59,875 --> 00:09:02,827 probably twenty thousand items in the catalog going from 156 00:09:02,827 --> 00:09:04,715 memory. So a lot. 157 00:09:04,755 --> 00:09:08,021 And as and the supply chain for, like, for most companies 158 00:09:08,021 --> 00:09:11,235 stretches all the way across the ocean to China. 159 00:09:11,235 --> 00:09:16,060 And so what was happening is with all of the disruptions, you 160 00:09:16,060 --> 00:09:19,490 had back orders of all of these products, and it just got 161 00:09:19,490 --> 00:09:21,660 to where people didn't know what do we make first. 162 00:09:21,660 --> 00:09:24,012 You know? What and so you can imagine 163 00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:26,804 everything's trying to go through, you know, you think 164 00:09:26,804 --> 00:09:30,726 about it, logs going over a dam. All the logs were trying to go 165 00:09:30,734 --> 00:09:34,149 over the dam at the same time, so none of the logs were going 166 00:09:34,149 --> 00:09:38,449 over the dam. And to a good example is, Delta 167 00:09:38,449 --> 00:09:41,562 had at that time a piece of software that scheduled the 168 00:09:41,562 --> 00:09:43,175 factories. And it normally for an eight 169 00:09:43,183 --> 00:09:46,254 for the for each shift, it takes about, let's say, an hour for 170 00:09:46,254 --> 00:09:48,280 the software to create the schedule. 171 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,220 Well, all of a sudden, was taken eight hours for the software 172 00:09:51,220 --> 00:09:53,640 to create the schedule for the next eight hours. 173 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,025 And I was think I was starting to think, well, what happens if 174 00:09:56,025 --> 00:09:59,505 it takes ten hours to get it? You can't get the schedule done. 175 00:09:59,505 --> 00:10:03,105 So it was just it was just this huge log jam. 176 00:10:03,105 --> 00:10:09,175 And so by by doing this, we what we basically did is we just 177 00:10:09,175 --> 00:10:12,140 took that huge long tail and just cut it off and said, those 178 00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:14,780 logs are no longer gonna try and go over the dam. 179 00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:18,709 And we're just gonna focus on the high volume items that 180 00:10:18,709 --> 00:10:23,660 most people need. And the theory that that that 181 00:10:23,660 --> 00:10:26,715 should help to just get stuff through and then eventually you 182 00:10:26,715 --> 00:10:31,154 can get things cleaned up. And, like I said, it was very 183 00:10:31,154 --> 00:10:33,915 difficult for me to do this because as a trained engineer, 184 00:10:33,915 --> 00:10:37,236 you know, I'm trained to like look at data, do analysis, you 185 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:41,041 know, maybe simulation, but there was no time for that 186 00:10:41,041 --> 00:10:45,210 because as I mentioned, our whole team was saying, we need 187 00:10:45,210 --> 00:10:47,902 action. And I realized that some 188 00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:52,369 action that made sense right now was gonna be a lot better than 189 00:10:52,369 --> 00:10:55,795 some really elegant analyzed plan later. 190 00:10:55,795 --> 00:11:00,595 And so that's why I just went with kind of the gut. 191 00:11:00,595 --> 00:11:06,925 So I can when you think back, you know, you roll back over the 192 00:11:06,925 --> 00:11:09,460 past, say, year career. Right? 193 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:14,364 You were at GE, thirty years at Masco running various 194 00:11:14,364 --> 00:11:20,260 businesses, now at Atlas. Walk us through the journey 195 00:11:20,268 --> 00:11:25,326 and what were the inflection points you know, where you 196 00:11:25,326 --> 00:11:28,555 became a a fundamentally different leader? 197 00:11:28,555 --> 00:11:30,715 Maybe you could help us understand that. 198 00:11:30,715 --> 00:11:32,365 Sure. I I would yeah. 199 00:11:32,365 --> 00:11:35,735 I'd love to. So, yes, I started it out of 200 00:11:35,735 --> 00:11:37,035 undergraduate, out of engineering school. 201 00:11:37,035 --> 00:11:41,337 I started it at GE, And I was part of what some people, most 202 00:11:41,337 --> 00:11:44,270 people would know as the Edison program if they know GE, 203 00:11:44,270 --> 00:11:47,330 although that wasn't exactly what it was called, where you 204 00:11:47,330 --> 00:11:50,830 rotate through. GE was a great company to work 205 00:11:50,830 --> 00:11:52,510 for. They poured training into me. 206 00:11:52,510 --> 00:11:55,775 I was there for three years and decided I wanted to go back to 207 00:11:55,775 --> 00:11:58,697 graduate school. And that was if you remember 208 00:11:58,705 --> 00:12:01,935 the Berlin Wall fell and you remember the peace dividend. 209 00:12:01,935 --> 00:12:04,495 I like to tell people I'm a walking example of the peace 210 00:12:04,495 --> 00:12:10,190 dividend because GE started ramping down when defense 211 00:12:10,190 --> 00:12:14,810 spending ramped down and they were offering people a package 212 00:12:14,850 --> 00:12:17,490 to take a voluntary layoff to go back to school. 213 00:12:17,490 --> 00:12:21,618 And I wanted to, so as a match made in heaven, I left GE and 214 00:12:21,618 --> 00:12:26,835 and I went to Northwestern. And so out of, Northwestern, 215 00:12:26,835 --> 00:12:30,435 then I landed at Masco at Delta Faucet Company, a division 216 00:12:30,435 --> 00:12:33,905 of Masco, and that's where I was for the next thirty years, 217 00:12:33,905 --> 00:12:36,432 basically. But I'll I'll put I'll key in 218 00:12:36,432 --> 00:12:40,544 on three transitions that I think that had the most impact 219 00:12:40,544 --> 00:12:45,773 on me as a leader. And the first one was my first 220 00:12:45,773 --> 00:12:49,542 coaching assignment. So I was a very, I'd like to 221 00:12:49,550 --> 00:12:54,539 think a diamond in the rough, but very in the rough when I 222 00:12:54,539 --> 00:12:59,435 was say a thirty year old. And the first turning point 223 00:12:59,443 --> 00:13:05,925 for me was actually where I got asked if I would like to work 224 00:13:05,925 --> 00:13:09,180 with a coach. And I said, of course, I said 225 00:13:09,180 --> 00:13:11,380 yes. And part of that was at that 226 00:13:11,380 --> 00:13:13,810 age, I was actually not apolitical. 227 00:13:13,810 --> 00:13:18,418 I was anti political because I just felt that doing things that 228 00:13:18,418 --> 00:13:21,369 politically oriented was so dirty that if something came up 229 00:13:21,369 --> 00:13:24,560 that might become political, I would do something opposite of 230 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,305 that just to avoid the appearance, you know, which and 231 00:13:28,305 --> 00:13:33,510 so one of the key things was kind of learning learning to 232 00:13:33,510 --> 00:13:37,326 compromise a little bit. My coach said, hey, look, Ken, 233 00:13:37,326 --> 00:13:40,814 this is the reality. Politics are a fact of working 234 00:13:40,822 --> 00:13:43,855 in an organization and you don't have to like it and you don't 235 00:13:43,855 --> 00:13:46,800 have to engage in it. But if you don't do some a 236 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,244 little bit, you will limit where you're gonna go in your 237 00:13:50,244 --> 00:13:53,429 career. Actually, that was one of many 238 00:13:53,437 --> 00:13:57,657 things that he said that caused me to think a lot and to think 239 00:13:57,657 --> 00:13:59,499 deeply, but that was probably the biggest one because I had 240 00:13:59,499 --> 00:14:02,408 to go home and do some soul searching, and I created my 241 00:14:02,408 --> 00:14:06,529 rules of engagement on how I was gonna engage in politics 242 00:14:06,529 --> 00:14:11,220 without compromising what I felt was my soul. 243 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:15,707 How's that? And so that was a major 244 00:14:15,715 --> 00:14:18,895 turning point in life. The second one was I had an 245 00:14:18,895 --> 00:14:21,553 opportunity. I spent the first ten plus 246 00:14:21,561 --> 00:14:24,995 years at Delta in supply chain and operations. 247 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:28,500 And the president at the time pulled me aside and said, Ken, I 248 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:31,621 think you could lead a business someday, but you need 249 00:14:31,621 --> 00:14:33,340 commercially facing experience. 250 00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:37,340 And so we would like to offer you a sales leadership role. 251 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:42,611 I'd never worked in sales. So I stepped into a role where 252 00:14:42,611 --> 00:14:48,205 I was leading a group of veteran salespeople who obviously knew 253 00:14:48,205 --> 00:14:52,802 way more than me, and I had to figure out how to deal how to 254 00:14:52,802 --> 00:14:57,200 do that, and how to gain their respect and trust and then to go 255 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,098 on to lead them. And that taught me so many 256 00:15:01,098 --> 00:15:04,900 things about, you know, how to engage with a culture that's 257 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:11,375 different than yours, how to how to establish followership, and 258 00:15:12,055 --> 00:15:17,055 so many other things. The third one was my first GM 259 00:15:17,055 --> 00:15:22,578 role where you you can feel like I had relatively large jobs as 260 00:15:22,578 --> 00:15:26,946 a as a functional leader, but there you know, the old saying, 261 00:15:26,946 --> 00:15:28,570 the cliche, it's lonely at the top. 262 00:15:28,570 --> 00:15:30,263 Yeah. That's where you started to 263 00:15:30,263 --> 00:15:32,595 feel it at the GM level. Yes. 264 00:15:32,595 --> 00:15:35,791 And on top of that, you start to feel the weight of you really 265 00:15:35,791 --> 00:15:39,307 do start to kinda feel the weight of the business because 266 00:15:39,307 --> 00:15:43,138 before I was responsible for making sure I did my job 267 00:15:43,138 --> 00:15:46,153 right. But when I became a GM at this 268 00:15:46,153 --> 00:15:49,421 business, Masco division, which was was smaller, but all of a 269 00:15:49,421 --> 00:15:53,202 sudden I had about, I think, three hundred and fifty people 270 00:15:53,210 --> 00:15:57,720 who wanted to have a good career and a, you know, a secure 271 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,653 employment. And to a certain extent, their 272 00:15:59,653 --> 00:16:01,230 fates were riding on my shoulders. 273 00:16:01,230 --> 00:16:04,976 And, you know, you start to feel that keenly when you're in 274 00:16:04,976 --> 00:16:12,215 the big chair. So, you know, there's this, I 275 00:16:12,215 --> 00:16:15,887 think, misnomer or or misconception that leaders 276 00:16:15,887 --> 00:16:20,202 sometimes have that they need to be the smartest one in the 277 00:16:20,202 --> 00:16:23,675 room. That they need to be the ones 278 00:16:23,675 --> 00:16:30,798 that the clear alpha. And yet, we've talked a lot 279 00:16:30,798 --> 00:16:37,482 about humility on this podcast. And I'm curious, what's your 280 00:16:37,482 --> 00:16:42,720 perspective on humility, and how does it fit into leadership? 281 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,800 Sure. Well, I've I've like to maybe 282 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,000 preface that with a a more philosophical statement. 283 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,800 Actually, one of the best business books I ever read was 284 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,682 by a gentleman. I think his last name is 285 00:16:57,690 --> 00:16:59,215 Farson. It's from the nineties. 286 00:16:59,215 --> 00:17:02,583 The book's called Management of the Absurd, and it really 287 00:17:02,583 --> 00:17:06,628 plays off of the the contradictions that are involved 288 00:17:06,628 --> 00:17:09,885 in being a leader, the contradictory things that are 289 00:17:09,885 --> 00:17:12,869 involved in being a leader. But I wanna go back to that. 290 00:17:12,869 --> 00:17:17,484 But what I mean by bringing that up is, and I'll before I 291 00:17:17,484 --> 00:17:22,303 answer your question directly, is I believe that leadership 292 00:17:22,310 --> 00:17:27,415 is very context dependent. So you don't ever get to just 293 00:17:27,415 --> 00:17:30,290 be one way. So you're talking about being 294 00:17:30,298 --> 00:17:34,740 the smartest guy in the room or kind of being, I'll call it 295 00:17:34,748 --> 00:17:36,775 alpha versus maybe more reserved. 296 00:17:36,775 --> 00:17:43,689 And I would say, I believe sometimes you have to have to 297 00:17:43,689 --> 00:17:46,573 play that role. Like I said, you know, this time 298 00:17:46,573 --> 00:17:50,270 when we had this supply chain thing, I I didn't solicit input. 299 00:17:50,270 --> 00:17:52,430 I, you know, I I didn't solicit input. 300 00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:55,855 I didn't go around and build a coalition. 301 00:17:55,855 --> 00:17:59,375 I saw the team was struggling. I stand up stood up and said, 302 00:17:59,375 --> 00:18:01,855 we're gonna cut off a bunch of our SKUs and we're gonna make 303 00:18:01,855 --> 00:18:04,279 this happen starting in whatever next week, and we're 304 00:18:04,279 --> 00:18:05,820 gonna do it for one hundred and twenty days. 305 00:18:05,820 --> 00:18:08,060 You know? Anybody in the room that can't 306 00:18:08,060 --> 00:18:09,180 live with that? No? 307 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:10,060 Okay. Great. 308 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:11,275 Go execute. Right? 309 00:18:11,275 --> 00:18:14,620 That's not my default state by by a long shot. 310 00:18:14,620 --> 00:18:17,801 I believe, though, the eighty twenty rule, the eighty percent 311 00:18:17,801 --> 00:18:21,859 of the time, one is I fundamentally all the time 312 00:18:21,859 --> 00:18:27,187 believe that if you're the, in any specific topic that you're 313 00:18:27,187 --> 00:18:30,839 addressing with your team as the CEO, if you're the smartest 314 00:18:30,839 --> 00:18:34,152 guy in the room, you have not done a very good job building 315 00:18:34,152 --> 00:18:35,350 your team. How's that? 316 00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:39,130 I like to tell my team, look at guys, at this point in my 317 00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:41,964 career, I've done a lot of stuff, so I'm an inch deep and 318 00:18:41,964 --> 00:18:44,859 a mile wide. So anything you want to talk 319 00:18:44,859 --> 00:18:48,390 about, I can intelligently engage with you. 320 00:18:48,390 --> 00:18:52,622 But any topic that comes up, like in within my executive 321 00:18:52,622 --> 00:18:55,891 team, somebody in the room is gonna be smarter than me about 322 00:18:55,891 --> 00:18:58,830 that topic than me. And I I think that's a a 323 00:18:58,838 --> 00:19:01,715 fundamental truism of being an effective leader. 324 00:19:01,715 --> 00:19:04,198 If you're the smartest guy in the room, you probably haven't 325 00:19:04,206 --> 00:19:07,800 done a great job hiring. I I I think that's quotable. 326 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,735 It's beautiful. I'm gonna write that, down 327 00:19:10,735 --> 00:19:13,686 somewhere on my desk. I just wanted to add into that 328 00:19:13,686 --> 00:19:15,616 as well. This can't you know, I just 329 00:19:15,616 --> 00:19:18,817 wanna differentiate or define maybe between humility, which 330 00:19:18,817 --> 00:19:21,565 you can have if you are still the smartest person in the room. 331 00:19:21,565 --> 00:19:24,965 It's just how that would show up for you, how it would show up 332 00:19:24,965 --> 00:19:28,187 for the people around you. And again, we make this mistake 333 00:19:28,187 --> 00:19:31,322 sometimes as leaders of thinking that we think we can 334 00:19:31,322 --> 00:19:33,942 see the outcome and we might just be leading people there, 335 00:19:33,942 --> 00:19:36,970 but genuine humility is, well, let me stay open to this idea. 336 00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:40,410 Let me actually start a debate or a conversation and actually 337 00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:42,250 facilitate it and see where we might end up. 338 00:19:42,250 --> 00:19:44,490 We might end up with a better solution than I would have come 339 00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:49,113 up with on my own. But I also want to just talk 340 00:19:49,121 --> 00:19:53,425 specifically about Ken because he's incredibly humble. 341 00:19:53,425 --> 00:19:58,854 And I would say my work with him has shown that he's somebody 342 00:19:58,854 --> 00:20:01,440 who's intrinsically motivated. And I think that would be 343 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,436 really interesting, like how you're working with 344 00:20:03,444 --> 00:20:05,880 salespeople who are generally, as the archetype or the 345 00:20:05,888 --> 00:20:07,640 stereotype would say, extrinsically motivated. 346 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,760 They want to ring the bell and high five and get the watch in 347 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,720 the car parking spot and all that. 348 00:20:13,465 --> 00:20:15,959 Whereas, so I would imagine that would have been a very 349 00:20:15,959 --> 00:20:18,665 interesting challenge for you. It's like how you're having to 350 00:20:18,665 --> 00:20:21,117 operate out of type. And I think it just reinforces 351 00:20:21,125 --> 00:20:23,993 the point that Ken has made is that you'll have preferences 352 00:20:24,001 --> 00:20:26,917 and predispositions as a leader. If you don't see them, you'll 353 00:20:26,917 --> 00:20:29,797 just default to them and there will be wake in the organization 354 00:20:29,797 --> 00:20:34,050 that people will have to navigate you may not even see. 355 00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:37,144 But if you are then able to be aware about, number one, your 356 00:20:37,144 --> 00:20:39,500 cognitive capabilities, whether I am the subject matter expert 357 00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:42,935 here and how do I compensate for that or mitigate for it? 358 00:20:42,935 --> 00:20:48,967 Or in the team dynamic, what my role is, what the situation is 359 00:20:48,967 --> 00:20:51,085 calling for. That self awareness then 360 00:20:51,093 --> 00:20:54,410 allows you to step back. You don't have to feel like 361 00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:56,042 the obligation. You still feel the 362 00:20:56,050 --> 00:20:58,090 responsibility. If you're conscientious, you 363 00:20:58,090 --> 00:21:00,105 will. But you don't necessarily feel 364 00:21:00,113 --> 00:21:04,194 the obligation to do the work. You can step back and take a 365 00:21:04,194 --> 00:21:06,587 beat and organize and orchestrate systems and 366 00:21:06,595 --> 00:21:09,915 mechanisms or processes that will lead you to a successful 367 00:21:09,915 --> 00:21:11,115 outcome. Yeah. 368 00:21:11,115 --> 00:21:14,155 You know, it just triggered for me the word sense making, 369 00:21:14,155 --> 00:21:17,195 which you talk a lot about in your in your book. 370 00:21:17,195 --> 00:21:20,465 And, you know, obviously, that's, like, an important 371 00:21:20,465 --> 00:21:23,830 faculty that you have to have throughout your life, and 372 00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:25,490 that's what we do. We make meaning. 373 00:21:25,490 --> 00:21:29,342 We make sense of things. But probably, you know, as it 374 00:21:29,342 --> 00:21:32,664 pertains to what we're talking about right now, and like, so 375 00:21:32,664 --> 00:21:37,432 imagine you are the smartest guy in the room, but being able 376 00:21:37,432 --> 00:21:43,779 to read the context and know when is it appropriate for you 377 00:21:43,779 --> 00:21:50,900 to chime in versus empowering your teammate, you know, or or 378 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,955 or how to leverage. And I do want to talk about 379 00:21:53,955 --> 00:21:57,660 team and your philosophy on team at some point because, know, 380 00:21:57,660 --> 00:22:02,332 very, very interested in that topic of of building high 381 00:22:02,332 --> 00:22:07,187 performing teams. But how to be a sense maker in 382 00:22:07,187 --> 00:22:14,115 real time and be very selective about what aspects of yourself 383 00:22:14,123 --> 00:22:18,828 you're actually exerting versus restraining, right, I think is 384 00:22:18,828 --> 00:22:23,136 a really interesting you know, that's a that's a muscle 385 00:22:23,144 --> 00:22:26,550 actually that I would say you ought to build as a as a leader. 386 00:22:26,550 --> 00:22:32,189 There's a whole question in the sort of leadership sciences, 387 00:22:32,189 --> 00:22:35,319 if you will. You know, are you sort of born 388 00:22:35,319 --> 00:22:38,225 a leader, or are you you sort of made a leader? 389 00:22:38,225 --> 00:22:42,593 And, obviously, I'm sure there's some combination of of nature 390 00:22:42,593 --> 00:22:45,120 and nurture. But what would you say to 391 00:22:45,128 --> 00:22:47,865 people who think you're either born a leader or not? 392 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,800 Yeah. Like you said, the old nature 393 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,696 nurture. So, you know, I was a runner 394 00:22:54,704 --> 00:22:59,040 in all through college, and and I was a respectable runner. 395 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,445 I ran division three at a division three school. 396 00:23:02,445 --> 00:23:03,965 Right? It was a combination. 397 00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:07,945 I had some talent, and I worked hard at it, and I became 398 00:23:07,945 --> 00:23:11,689 respectable. But I was, I think, two and a 399 00:23:11,689 --> 00:23:15,005 half minutes slower on a five ks than the current world record 400 00:23:15,005 --> 00:23:17,970 holder. So I could have practiced 401 00:23:17,978 --> 00:23:21,460 twenty four hours a day and never have beat that world 402 00:23:21,460 --> 00:23:26,260 record because at the end of the day, that person has inherent 403 00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:28,880 capabilities he was born with I don't have. 404 00:23:29,285 --> 00:23:32,005 So that being said, that's the nature part. 405 00:23:32,005 --> 00:23:36,245 But but I do believe leadership is more nurture than nature. 406 00:23:36,245 --> 00:23:40,485 It is the a lot of these skills can be taught. 407 00:23:40,485 --> 00:23:44,300 I do believe, though. I would say, though, to a 408 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:47,091 certain extent, if you're some people that are natural born 409 00:23:47,091 --> 00:23:49,332 leaders, of course, it's like some people are naturally 410 00:23:49,332 --> 00:23:51,636 bored to play basketball. You just put a ball in their 411 00:23:51,636 --> 00:23:54,591 hand and they're good. But for people who are not, I 412 00:23:54,591 --> 00:23:58,381 think something that is a requirement to learn that, to go 413 00:23:58,381 --> 00:24:02,072 through the nurture successfully is is to be have 414 00:24:02,072 --> 00:24:04,205 some self awareness and coachability. 415 00:24:04,205 --> 00:24:06,925 Because you're gonna have to spend a lot of time looking in 416 00:24:06,925 --> 00:24:10,156 the mirror honestly saying, where am I where are the gaps 417 00:24:10,156 --> 00:24:14,082 in my leadership skills, and and what am I gonna go do to to, 418 00:24:14,082 --> 00:24:16,320 fill those? I've worked with hundreds of 419 00:24:16,328 --> 00:24:20,216 leaders all over the world, and one thing that really defines 420 00:24:20,216 --> 00:24:23,255 or delineates Ken diff differently from them is the 421 00:24:23,263 --> 00:24:27,819 ability to be able to take on feedback and to make the 422 00:24:27,819 --> 00:24:30,855 adjustments, really. Even amongst the CEOs that I 423 00:24:30,855 --> 00:24:33,945 work with. I'm chuckling because the first 424 00:24:33,945 --> 00:24:36,729 time when we first started working together, said, oh, what 425 00:24:36,729 --> 00:24:38,385 sort of what kind of assessments do you have? 426 00:24:38,385 --> 00:24:43,044 What kind of psychometric or other And you had like a dozen 427 00:24:43,044 --> 00:24:45,822 that you had gone and solicited from the organisation 428 00:24:45,822 --> 00:24:47,810 or they'd given to them. I was like, oh, wow, I've 429 00:24:47,818 --> 00:24:51,298 never really seen this much.' So we had so much data to play 430 00:24:51,298 --> 00:24:53,810 around with. And during our process where 431 00:24:53,818 --> 00:24:57,125 typically people are going to say, okay, well, I'm successful. 432 00:24:57,125 --> 00:24:58,245 I'm ambitious. I'm driven. 433 00:24:58,245 --> 00:25:00,725 I've got my own systems and processes that work for me. 434 00:25:00,725 --> 00:25:03,365 And so, you know, what what do I need coaching for? 435 00:25:03,365 --> 00:25:06,885 What do I need to be better for? And at the end of the day, 436 00:25:06,885 --> 00:25:09,525 still to this day, Ken will be like, well, what's the 437 00:25:09,525 --> 00:25:10,645 feedback? What's the adjustment? 438 00:25:10,645 --> 00:25:13,501 Not in a way that is, like, you know, sort of centrally 439 00:25:13,501 --> 00:25:15,940 anxious driven or, like, you know, I'm worried about 440 00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:18,416 something, but just I would love to be the best that I can 441 00:25:18,416 --> 00:25:20,868 possibly be. And to his credit, he does it 442 00:25:20,868 --> 00:25:23,235 even to this day. And I think that to anybody 443 00:25:23,235 --> 00:25:25,269 who's, you know, listening to this or watching this and 444 00:25:25,269 --> 00:25:27,929 thinks about how am I gonna be successful if they're early 445 00:25:27,937 --> 00:25:29,555 stage career or mid stage career. 446 00:25:29,555 --> 00:25:33,075 It really is that willingness to go and find out information 447 00:25:33,075 --> 00:25:37,635 about yourself that you may not like the sound of and to 448 00:25:37,635 --> 00:25:41,455 make an appropriate context appropriate adjustment in order 449 00:25:41,455 --> 00:25:43,328 to be able to lead better. Yeah. 450 00:25:43,328 --> 00:25:45,860 Okay. So here here's where, so say 451 00:25:45,868 --> 00:25:47,900 you do all of that. Right? 452 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:56,404 You, you're you're open and humble and coachable and, and 453 00:25:56,404 --> 00:26:01,233 eager, right, to grow. And then you become a successful 454 00:26:01,233 --> 00:26:03,705 leader in a certain context. Right? 455 00:26:03,705 --> 00:26:07,275 So you come into a various contexts. 456 00:26:07,275 --> 00:26:08,875 It could be a turnaround context. 457 00:26:08,875 --> 00:26:11,870 It could be, like, a maintenance context. 458 00:26:11,870 --> 00:26:13,950 It could be like a low growth context. 459 00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:16,110 It could be like we're scaling context. 460 00:26:16,110 --> 00:26:17,630 It could be Highly political context. 461 00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:19,560 The highly political context. It's gonna be a volatile 462 00:26:19,568 --> 00:26:20,190 context. It's happened. 463 00:26:20,190 --> 00:26:24,638 But but you you achieve somehow as and, know, you 464 00:26:24,638 --> 00:26:27,325 obviously see this all the time. 465 00:26:27,325 --> 00:26:32,385 I see this all the time, you know, as an executive coach of 466 00:26:32,385 --> 00:26:35,109 leaders. And and the leader achieves 467 00:26:35,117 --> 00:26:39,679 some degree of mastery in that context, and then the context 468 00:26:39,679 --> 00:26:43,510 changes. And the leader either falls on 469 00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:50,100 their face, or or just goes sideways or becomes, like, 470 00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:53,435 increasingly vulnerable to some sort of, like, 471 00:26:53,435 --> 00:26:57,035 ineffectiveness or derailment at at the extreme. 472 00:26:57,035 --> 00:27:01,915 So, you know, what I'm what I'm curious about is, especially 473 00:27:01,915 --> 00:27:06,672 Ken, given like the various contexts that you've been in, 474 00:27:06,672 --> 00:27:12,900 how how do you adapt your leadership as you go from 475 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:17,244 context to context? You know, what's the help us 476 00:27:17,252 --> 00:27:20,116 understand how you did it. Well, if I were gonna put a 477 00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:23,493 bumper sticker on it, I would say it's the old saying, what 478 00:27:23,493 --> 00:27:26,225 got you where you are won't take you where you wanna go. 479 00:27:26,225 --> 00:27:32,078 And so when you drop in so I'm very intentional when I step 480 00:27:32,078 --> 00:27:35,668 into a new role. Actually, another one of my 481 00:27:35,668 --> 00:27:38,090 favorite books, I don't know if you'd call it a business book, 482 00:27:38,090 --> 00:27:40,170 but one of my like, I have a a list. 483 00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:42,944 I have a group of about five books that are really meaningful 484 00:27:42,944 --> 00:27:44,938 to Essentials. That are the essentials. 485 00:27:44,938 --> 00:27:46,445 Yeah. I'm not a huge business book 486 00:27:46,445 --> 00:27:49,019 reader, but one of them is seven habits of highly successful 487 00:27:49,019 --> 00:27:50,935 people. I think it's timeless. 488 00:27:50,935 --> 00:27:55,210 And, you know, one of the one of the first few habits in there 489 00:27:55,210 --> 00:27:58,647 is seek first to understand. And to me, in a nutshell, that's 490 00:27:58,647 --> 00:28:01,815 that's how you manage context switching is when you step into 491 00:28:01,815 --> 00:28:06,175 a new role. I mean, I will say if you step 492 00:28:06,175 --> 00:28:09,518 in, if you step in, if you're taking over as captain of a 493 00:28:09,518 --> 00:28:12,284 new ship and the ship's just been hit by a torpedo and it's 494 00:28:12,284 --> 00:28:16,396 taking on water and it's on fire there's planes there, you get 495 00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:19,026 attacked by airplanes, you're not gonna have time to do a 496 00:28:19,026 --> 00:28:21,015 seek first understand. You just gotta be a wartime 497 00:28:21,015 --> 00:28:21,475 general. Right? 498 00:28:21,475 --> 00:28:23,449 Yeah. But generally, that's not what 499 00:28:23,449 --> 00:28:26,275 happens when you take over in a leadership position. 500 00:28:26,275 --> 00:28:30,275 And therefore, I would say first job job one in a new role 501 00:28:30,275 --> 00:28:34,068 is to go in and understand what really are the levers that 502 00:28:34,068 --> 00:28:38,010 drive the success of this role, and how are they similar 503 00:28:38,010 --> 00:28:42,604 or different to what you did the last time, and learn those 504 00:28:42,604 --> 00:28:47,519 levers. And that's, know, that's, I 505 00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:51,825 mean, kind of in a nutshell, what I'd say philosophically. 506 00:28:52,025 --> 00:28:58,794 Well, the interesting thing is how tempting it is not to seek 507 00:28:58,794 --> 00:29:02,075 to understand and to prove yourself right out of the 508 00:29:02,075 --> 00:29:05,274 gates because, you know, here, you've gotten this this fancy 509 00:29:05,274 --> 00:29:07,410 job and everybody's counting on you. 510 00:29:07,410 --> 00:29:10,450 And so I'm gonna run my playbook that worked for me in 511 00:29:10,450 --> 00:29:13,730 my previous context. To me, that's like nine times 512 00:29:13,730 --> 00:29:17,405 out of ten, you know, maybe six times out of ten. 513 00:29:17,405 --> 00:29:20,765 There's a there's a high degree of a failure rate there. 514 00:29:20,765 --> 00:29:24,590 It's very tempting. And actually, I I remember 515 00:29:24,598 --> 00:29:27,850 there was a book that explicitly said, hey. 516 00:29:27,850 --> 00:29:29,814 Look. What you need to do when you 517 00:29:29,822 --> 00:29:32,690 step into a new leadership role is you need to accomplish 518 00:29:32,698 --> 00:29:35,378 something in the first sixty days that you can put on the 519 00:29:35,378 --> 00:29:37,050 board and say, look at what Quick win? 520 00:29:37,050 --> 00:29:38,090 Yeah. Is that what it's called? 521 00:29:38,090 --> 00:29:39,370 Quick win. Yeah. 522 00:29:39,370 --> 00:29:41,647 Yeah. And and Really? 523 00:29:41,647 --> 00:29:42,785 Yeah. Right. 524 00:29:42,785 --> 00:29:46,723 Well, I mean, I can but I can I I can see why? 525 00:29:46,723 --> 00:29:47,945 Right? Because you're a establisher, 526 00:29:47,953 --> 00:29:51,799 and you're I mean, it is extremely uncomfortable to go 527 00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:54,960 into an organization, say, for ninety days. 528 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,960 I remember reading the first ninety days. 529 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,974 You know, at the time, you know, when I walked into our 530 00:29:59,974 --> 00:30:02,635 organization, we were in crisis. And so this idea of sort of 531 00:30:02,635 --> 00:30:04,680 taking time and speaking to people and This is back when 532 00:30:04,688 --> 00:30:06,968 you were in the hot seat. When I was in the hot seat. 533 00:30:06,968 --> 00:30:08,000 Yeah. And I was like, okay. 534 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,325 That that doesn't apply to my current context. 535 00:30:11,325 --> 00:30:15,165 And I think that sometimes when we think about sort of framing 536 00:30:15,165 --> 00:30:18,205 that we get or sort of themes and patterns that we can see 537 00:30:18,205 --> 00:30:22,495 from the consulting worlds, they can be very valuable, 538 00:30:22,495 --> 00:30:25,720 right? If situation is normal. 539 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,656 My flip on that, and this is something that I used when I 540 00:30:29,656 --> 00:30:32,400 was in my role, was the last one hundred days. 541 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,105 And that really helped me to, again, we come back to the 542 00:30:35,105 --> 00:30:37,414 courage to be able to push back on the organisation because 543 00:30:37,414 --> 00:30:40,781 everyone's expecting you to jump in and make your mark and 544 00:30:40,781 --> 00:30:42,995 leave a stamp and all that kind of stuff. 545 00:30:42,995 --> 00:30:44,915 But actually it does take courage to be able say, Well, 546 00:30:44,915 --> 00:30:47,517 hang on a minute, folks. And I don't know when that 547 00:30:47,525 --> 00:30:52,017 last one hundred days might be. It may be in one hundred days' 548 00:30:52,017 --> 00:30:52,640 time. Yeah. 549 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,582 But but for me, what was grounding for me when I 550 00:30:55,582 --> 00:30:57,868 stepped into the role is to think about, well, what's the 551 00:30:57,868 --> 00:31:00,360 legacy I wanna leave? And, you know, how do I want to 552 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,000 have affected the people that I've worked with? 553 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,510 And if I can do that, then everything else that happens 554 00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:06,819 will just happen. Yeah. 555 00:31:06,819 --> 00:31:08,920 You know? It was a very it it could sound 556 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,601 like it's, you know, okay. Well, you're you're thinking 557 00:31:11,601 --> 00:31:13,645 about almost like business mortality. 558 00:31:13,645 --> 00:31:15,805 Like, you know, at some point, you're not gonna be here. 559 00:31:15,805 --> 00:31:18,171 But actually, it was very, very liberating for me to be able 560 00:31:18,171 --> 00:31:20,570 to say, what is my last hundred days gonna look like? 561 00:31:20,570 --> 00:31:23,930 And then you can sort of reverse engineer What are the 562 00:31:23,930 --> 00:31:25,050 things that we need to do today? 563 00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:27,255 And we'll do those. What are the things that we 564 00:31:27,255 --> 00:31:29,290 don't need to do today? Because not because they don't 565 00:31:29,290 --> 00:31:32,434 need to be done, but because there's a sequencing or a 566 00:31:32,434 --> 00:31:34,874 prioritization behind that. And we will get to that when 567 00:31:34,874 --> 00:31:37,190 the time is right. And actually sometimes as you 568 00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:39,790 evolve through your ninety day cycles, those things actually 569 00:31:39,790 --> 00:31:41,495 drop off and they're not relevant. 570 00:31:41,495 --> 00:31:44,255 And you didn't see it at the time, or you weren't aware of 571 00:31:44,255 --> 00:31:45,655 the time, or circumstances evolved. 572 00:31:45,655 --> 00:31:47,895 And so that actually allowed us to create a sort of 573 00:31:47,895 --> 00:31:50,100 essentialism around the work that we did too. 574 00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:53,220 So that was one thing I was going to say about- I love that. 575 00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:56,020 Last hundred days versus the first ninety days. 576 00:31:56,020 --> 00:31:58,828 The second thing I'm going to say, which I think we may have 577 00:31:58,836 --> 00:32:02,980 skipped over here is, Ken, you talked about the GE program, 578 00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:06,759 which for me is always the the absolute benchmark of the 579 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:09,335 greatest leadership program that I have seen. 580 00:32:09,335 --> 00:32:12,215 Is it at Crotonville? And it's the six month rotation. 581 00:32:12,215 --> 00:32:14,821 Four different places, four different functions. 582 00:32:14,821 --> 00:32:15,549 Right. Okay. 583 00:32:15,549 --> 00:32:18,107 GE used to do this. Some organizations still do it 584 00:32:18,115 --> 00:32:19,415 today. Don't know if GE does. 585 00:32:19,415 --> 00:32:21,310 No matter where you sit in the organization. 586 00:32:21,310 --> 00:32:23,764 You go through six month rotations, four different 587 00:32:23,764 --> 00:32:25,150 places, four different functions. 588 00:32:25,150 --> 00:32:28,030 So you might be in Singapore doing marketing for six months. 589 00:32:28,030 --> 00:32:32,270 You may then go to, you know, Australia to do operations. 590 00:32:32,270 --> 00:32:34,345 You might go into supply chain in Canada anyway. 591 00:32:34,345 --> 00:32:36,585 And so that is a very sound grounding. 592 00:32:36,585 --> 00:32:39,085 But even if you don't go on that program, GE at the time was 593 00:32:39,085 --> 00:32:41,785 one of the best places to learn about leadership, without 594 00:32:41,785 --> 00:32:44,025 a doubt. But then also the second thing, 595 00:32:44,025 --> 00:32:46,648 so if people have had that kind of experience, because that 596 00:32:46,648 --> 00:32:48,545 does force you, it's a forcing function. 597 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,934 Even if you're not in a turnaround, it forces you to 598 00:32:50,934 --> 00:32:53,535 say, Okay, now I'm managing a sales group and I'm not a 599 00:32:53,535 --> 00:32:54,880 salesperson. So what do I have to do 600 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,321 differently? Or I might be managing people 601 00:32:56,321 --> 00:32:59,440 who are ten, fifteen years older than me, then what do I do? 602 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,275 And these are almost forcing functions that accelerate your 603 00:33:02,275 --> 00:33:04,435 leadership learning in a way that you wouldn't if you stayed 604 00:33:04,435 --> 00:33:07,687 in the same division. We'll also add to that the 605 00:33:07,695 --> 00:33:09,819 second thing that I see. So if people have had that kind 606 00:33:09,819 --> 00:33:11,965 of experience where they've gone outside of their function 607 00:33:11,965 --> 00:33:14,375 at early stage, that builds the ability to make better 608 00:33:14,375 --> 00:33:17,070 decisions as you move up because you can see the context. 609 00:33:17,070 --> 00:33:19,790 You can see all the variables that are in play. 610 00:33:19,790 --> 00:33:22,103 Even if you're not the subject matter expert, you can see 611 00:33:22,103 --> 00:33:24,090 different aspects of why people are coming from where 612 00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:26,230 they're coming from. And then you can understand 613 00:33:26,238 --> 00:33:28,790 which one takes priority and make better organizational 614 00:33:28,798 --> 00:33:31,827 decisions as a result. The second thing would be most 615 00:33:31,835 --> 00:33:34,361 of the great leaders that I have worked with have had some 616 00:33:34,361 --> 00:33:37,081 experience outside of the country, because managing in 617 00:33:37,081 --> 00:33:42,193 Asia is not the same as managing in the US, or even managing 618 00:33:42,193 --> 00:33:45,970 different parts of the US is not the same, or in Canada. 619 00:33:46,410 --> 00:33:49,210 What you see in those circumstances, and this really 620 00:33:49,210 --> 00:33:52,970 actually at a physical level, this changes your neuroplastic. 621 00:33:52,970 --> 00:33:55,290 It changes the way that your brain is not just the way you 622 00:33:55,290 --> 00:33:58,369 think, but actually the way your brain is constructed, which 623 00:33:58,369 --> 00:34:01,335 is you look at transportation. I'll give you an example of 624 00:34:01,335 --> 00:34:03,543 like transportation, if you go to work in Brussels versus 625 00:34:03,543 --> 00:34:05,995 going to work in Washington DC. Okay. 626 00:34:05,995 --> 00:34:08,715 You go from work to home and home back again. 627 00:34:08,715 --> 00:34:11,871 But the transportation network, the ecosystem is completely 628 00:34:11,879 --> 00:34:14,230 different in those two places. Right? 629 00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:17,063 One might be car based, one might be trans you know, one 630 00:34:17,063 --> 00:34:20,070 might be, trams, one might be trains, one might be rail. 631 00:34:20,070 --> 00:34:22,389 The same thing with groceries, like when I buy my groceries. 632 00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:25,630 The same thing with education, where do I train my and so what 633 00:34:25,630 --> 00:34:28,592 we see is that there are many, many different ways to get the 634 00:34:28,592 --> 00:34:31,679 same thing done. And that in a way changes the 635 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,885 way that you think, so it makes you a better problem solver. 636 00:34:34,885 --> 00:34:37,725 It makes you a better decision maker, I think. 637 00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:40,840 Those are the two hallmarks of great leaders that I have 638 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,724 worked with, is that they typically have gone through 639 00:34:42,724 --> 00:34:46,116 some kind of rotation that put them out of their comfort zone 640 00:34:46,116 --> 00:34:49,753 early on, and that they've spent some time outside and then 641 00:34:49,761 --> 00:34:52,284 come back in again. There's a piece of research 642 00:34:52,293 --> 00:34:55,415 that talks about accelerating into the CEO role, one of them 643 00:34:55,415 --> 00:34:58,000 is that people took on assignments that either 644 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,605 something that's broken or something they needed to turn 645 00:35:00,605 --> 00:35:03,575 around or something that was completely outside of their 646 00:35:03,575 --> 00:35:06,950 comfort zone. Typically I have the stereotype 647 00:35:06,950 --> 00:35:09,478 or the phenotype of a salesperson, then people 648 00:35:09,478 --> 00:35:11,430 think, well, you're to be focused in sales. 649 00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:14,230 And you might run that pipe all the way up to a certain point 650 00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:17,630 where you realize you've missed out all these other dimensions. 651 00:35:17,830 --> 00:35:23,155 It could be operations, supply chain, finance, marketing. 652 00:35:23,155 --> 00:35:27,549 And a great organization, the decision making either in the 653 00:35:27,549 --> 00:35:30,378 lower levels or at the top of the organization needs to take 654 00:35:30,378 --> 00:35:31,955 into consideration all of those things. 655 00:35:31,955 --> 00:35:34,219 And then help us just understand, like, what's the 656 00:35:34,219 --> 00:35:38,624 value of of of a coach at this stage, know, when you're 657 00:35:38,624 --> 00:35:39,610 president. Yeah. 658 00:35:39,610 --> 00:35:41,690 Well, this is actually the second time I've worked with 659 00:35:41,690 --> 00:35:44,465 Jamie. So I'll I'll just give you the 660 00:35:44,473 --> 00:35:46,810 reason for both because they're two different reasons. 661 00:35:46,810 --> 00:35:52,291 So so by the way, so I'm I'm a, by nature, a highly 662 00:35:52,291 --> 00:35:54,887 introverted people person. Actually, one of these 663 00:35:54,887 --> 00:35:57,075 assessments they did once was this company. 664 00:35:57,075 --> 00:36:00,275 It was I don't remember it was it wasn't plan nine. 665 00:36:00,275 --> 00:36:02,432 That's a bad movie. It was something like the 666 00:36:02,432 --> 00:36:04,404 ninth house. It was ninth house is the main 667 00:36:04,404 --> 00:36:05,630 ninth house. Yeah. 668 00:36:05,630 --> 00:36:08,084 They went they put us all through that, and they did this 669 00:36:08,084 --> 00:36:10,620 big assessment. And and in their database, I 670 00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:13,630 scored in the oneth percentile for extraversion. 671 00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:17,378 Yes. So my point being, I For 672 00:36:17,378 --> 00:36:18,675 introversion. For introversion. 673 00:36:18,675 --> 00:36:22,526 So the I was one yeah. So I'm totally on the end of 674 00:36:22,526 --> 00:36:24,815 the scale for it, for being an introvert. 675 00:36:24,815 --> 00:36:32,542 Point being, I therefore, I much prefer and am best at building 676 00:36:32,542 --> 00:36:36,535 relationships one on one. Like, if I can get you off and 677 00:36:36,535 --> 00:36:39,670 go have dinner with you, we're probably good. 678 00:36:39,710 --> 00:36:44,357 By the same token, I'm highly uncomfortable in trying to get 679 00:36:44,357 --> 00:36:46,925 to know people in a large group setting. 680 00:36:46,925 --> 00:36:49,905 It's my worst scenario. The cocktail party is my worst 681 00:36:49,905 --> 00:36:52,445 scenario, right? So I went from Masco, Canada, 682 00:36:52,453 --> 00:36:56,537 where it was, like I said, it was about one hundred and 683 00:36:56,537 --> 00:36:58,540 eighty hourly, one hundred and eighty salaried. 684 00:36:58,540 --> 00:37:00,140 So I had about one hundred and eighty people. 685 00:37:00,140 --> 00:37:02,969 And, you know, there's this saying that in a village of 686 00:37:02,969 --> 00:37:06,346 one hundred and fifty people or less, you can build 687 00:37:06,346 --> 00:37:08,155 relationships just by knowing everybody. 688 00:37:08,155 --> 00:37:11,355 And that's what I did. But then I went to Delta, which 689 00:37:11,355 --> 00:37:13,654 was over two thousand employees, and I recognized 690 00:37:13,654 --> 00:37:16,475 there were gonna be a whole group of people at Delta that 691 00:37:16,475 --> 00:37:19,690 the only thing they the only way they ever got to know Ken 692 00:37:19,690 --> 00:37:22,275 Roberts was through what they saw in the town halls. 693 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,840 And I recognize that was that was my backhand. 694 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,040 So actually that was a big part of our first engagement was, 695 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,040 hey, help me, Jamie, help me to learn how to to never be 696 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,865 great, but how can I be better at breaking through and creating 697 00:37:37,865 --> 00:37:40,907 a connection with people when all I'll ever do is be able to 698 00:37:40,907 --> 00:37:42,185 be in these large group settings? 699 00:37:42,185 --> 00:37:45,637 So that was that one. The one that I'm what we're 700 00:37:45,637 --> 00:37:48,939 working on now is I'm actually in a position where I 701 00:37:48,939 --> 00:37:52,164 actually, the at Atlas, I really have four four businesses 702 00:37:52,164 --> 00:37:55,780 reporting to me, and each one of them is run by a general 703 00:37:55,780 --> 00:37:58,472 manager or Okay. Almost a a president of that 704 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,317 business that has and those GMs have full p and l 705 00:38:02,317 --> 00:38:05,640 responsibilities. So I'm finding my in a new 706 00:38:05,648 --> 00:38:09,181 position where previously I was president where I had all the 707 00:38:09,189 --> 00:38:13,837 functions reporting to me. Now I'm in a position where my 708 00:38:13,837 --> 00:38:17,460 title's still president, but it's really almost like a CEO 709 00:38:17,460 --> 00:38:20,420 role because I have GMs reporting to me. 710 00:38:20,420 --> 00:38:25,824 And so that's and it's putting new demands on how I lead 711 00:38:25,824 --> 00:38:30,644 because I no longer have that kind of direct control over 712 00:38:30,644 --> 00:38:35,055 those functional decisions. I don't wanna drive my GMs crazy 713 00:38:35,055 --> 00:38:37,105 by looking over their shoulders. 714 00:38:37,105 --> 00:38:42,585 Also, an a mentor earlier in my career said, Ken, there's a 715 00:38:42,585 --> 00:38:44,865 big difference between delegation and abdication. 716 00:38:44,865 --> 00:38:46,517 Oh. You know, you should do one, 717 00:38:46,517 --> 00:38:49,276 not the other. So I also don't wanna be so 718 00:38:49,284 --> 00:38:52,380 disengaged that I'm basically abdicating my role as their 719 00:38:52,380 --> 00:38:54,674 effective leader. So so that's really our focus 720 00:38:54,674 --> 00:38:57,028 area right now. So this is, you know, balance 721 00:38:57,028 --> 00:39:05,835 you gotta strike between trust and staying engaged. 722 00:39:06,195 --> 00:39:10,327 Yeah, exactly. Which different than, I guess, 723 00:39:10,335 --> 00:39:13,195 a previous context you were in. Right? 724 00:39:13,195 --> 00:39:17,430 It is. How do you harness the power 725 00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:25,330 of of a team to to accomplish what you're driving towards? 726 00:39:25,330 --> 00:39:28,312 Because I feel like over the last several years, I've learned 727 00:39:28,312 --> 00:39:31,482 a lot about that through the school of hard knocks and by 728 00:39:31,482 --> 00:39:36,177 making mistakes. And I like to tell people my 729 00:39:36,177 --> 00:39:41,374 way of my my path to success is to make a lot of mistakes one 730 00:39:41,374 --> 00:39:42,505 time. How's that? 731 00:39:42,505 --> 00:39:44,185 That's a good one. I like that. 732 00:39:44,185 --> 00:39:47,856 And and behind that then is the idea behind that is the idea 733 00:39:47,856 --> 00:39:51,588 that in order to be able to make a lot of mistakes, they 734 00:39:51,588 --> 00:39:55,280 have to be small ones because big ones, you don't survive. 735 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,673 And and then also, if you make them one time, it means you're 736 00:39:58,673 --> 00:39:59,935 not making many mistakes two times. 737 00:39:59,935 --> 00:40:02,415 So there you go. That's that's my With the 738 00:40:02,423 --> 00:40:05,295 primary implication being that you learned something very 739 00:40:05,295 --> 00:40:06,697 important. And then you don't do it 740 00:40:06,705 --> 00:40:07,031 again. Right. 741 00:40:07,031 --> 00:40:09,175 So there you go. There's my there's my leadership 742 00:40:09,175 --> 00:40:12,087 mantra to myself every time. I every morning I get up, I 743 00:40:12,087 --> 00:40:14,255 tell myself, let's just make a lot of mistakes one time. 744 00:40:14,255 --> 00:40:17,687 One time. So so as it relates to to 745 00:40:17,687 --> 00:40:21,750 building teams, yeah, I so part of it, I think, goes back to 746 00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:24,350 what's your fundamental leadership philosophy, and mine 747 00:40:24,350 --> 00:40:27,430 is the best teams are collaborative teams. 748 00:40:27,430 --> 00:40:29,670 Not everybody thinks that. I mean, some people think, hey. 749 00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:33,965 Look at just point you know, you become some people believe, 750 00:40:34,005 --> 00:40:35,685 I think really, I think it was good to great. 751 00:40:35,685 --> 00:40:40,085 Good to great actually said one of the leadership things they 752 00:40:40,085 --> 00:40:43,045 saw in there they felt was not effective was the genius with a 753 00:40:43,045 --> 00:40:46,090 thousand helpers was the term they used. 754 00:40:46,090 --> 00:40:50,706 And to me, that's where the CEO is controls it, and he just 755 00:40:50,706 --> 00:40:53,450 sends each individual team member off on the mastering. 756 00:40:53,450 --> 00:40:54,490 Exactly. Yeah. 757 00:40:54,490 --> 00:40:57,375 I don't believe that's the most effective. 758 00:40:57,375 --> 00:41:00,835 It's my philosophy. I like I said, I believe that 759 00:41:00,835 --> 00:41:02,335 most effective teams are collaborative. 760 00:41:02,335 --> 00:41:06,203 So that means you want as close as you can get, you wanna 761 00:41:06,203 --> 00:41:10,590 break down silo walls. You wanna you want boundary 762 00:41:10,598 --> 00:41:14,322 boundary less collaboration. And then actually, I'm not 763 00:41:14,322 --> 00:41:17,410 talking out of school because my current team, if they were 764 00:41:17,410 --> 00:41:18,850 sitting here, they would acknowledge this. 765 00:41:18,850 --> 00:41:23,783 When I came into Atlas, it was a very good team, but they were 766 00:41:23,783 --> 00:41:27,287 to a certain extent operating in independent silos, which is 767 00:41:27,287 --> 00:41:30,551 not all that shocking when you understand there's really four 768 00:41:30,551 --> 00:41:34,207 different businesses there. So we've been very intentional 769 00:41:34,215 --> 00:41:39,695 there at Atlas about building, we call it, you know, one 770 00:41:39,695 --> 00:41:45,668 company, one voice, one Atlas. And we did that by I established 771 00:41:45,668 --> 00:41:49,100 regular staff meetings. And the team, they previously, 772 00:41:49,108 --> 00:41:51,575 they had staff meetings, but what it basically was 773 00:41:51,583 --> 00:41:55,356 everybody showed up and did are just a report out on their 774 00:41:55,356 --> 00:41:58,009 financials. It's the group of individual. 775 00:41:58,009 --> 00:41:59,695 Exactly. So we changed it. 776 00:41:59,695 --> 00:42:03,135 Now our agenda is really about wrestling with strategic issues 777 00:42:03,135 --> 00:42:07,247 that affect the whole company, you know, and so we established 778 00:42:07,247 --> 00:42:11,645 those. We also established an annual 779 00:42:11,645 --> 00:42:15,009 off-site where, which is, you know, lots of companies do 780 00:42:15,009 --> 00:42:17,298 this. I'm not, not starting 781 00:42:17,306 --> 00:42:20,175 something new there. And also just being very 782 00:42:20,183 --> 00:42:22,824 intentional about telling the team, hey, look, my 783 00:42:22,832 --> 00:42:28,045 expectations are we're one team. So and some of the way to 784 00:42:28,045 --> 00:42:34,237 reinforce that is to win if some I I I refuse to be 785 00:42:34,237 --> 00:42:37,193 triangulated. So when that happens and 786 00:42:37,193 --> 00:42:40,840 somebody, you know, Joe comes and says, hey, Ken, we really 787 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,328 need to do this. And I was like, okay, well, 788 00:42:43,336 --> 00:42:45,988 did you talk to Tim about that? Because that's really gonna 789 00:42:45,988 --> 00:42:47,736 impact him. Well, no, not really. 790 00:42:47,736 --> 00:42:49,965 Okay. Well, you go talk to Tim, then 791 00:42:49,973 --> 00:42:52,383 you and Tim both come back. Let's talk again. 792 00:42:52,383 --> 00:42:57,669 You know? So, I guess that's my way of 793 00:42:57,669 --> 00:43:00,335 of driving teams. I would say the other thing 794 00:43:00,343 --> 00:43:03,430 that I've learned through the school of hard knocks is just 795 00:43:03,438 --> 00:43:08,040 how to be much more militant about policing non teamwork. 796 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,040 Oh. So and I don't mean, like, I 797 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,920 don't mean really hammering people, but just simple things 798 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,910 as simple as I'm sitting in a staff meeting and I see that 799 00:43:18,910 --> 00:43:22,339 the team's just kind of starting to circle where they've, you 800 00:43:22,339 --> 00:43:25,405 know, they've gone, they're just going around and just to jump 801 00:43:25,405 --> 00:43:28,525 in and say, Hey, you know, let's just cut this off right now. 802 00:43:28,525 --> 00:43:31,365 I think we're not going to make more progress today. 803 00:43:31,970 --> 00:43:35,490 We can afford to wait. Here are the assignments. 804 00:43:35,490 --> 00:43:38,258 You know, we're going to do this, this, and this as follow 805 00:43:38,258 --> 00:43:41,090 ups, and then we're going to come back in our next staff 806 00:43:41,090 --> 00:43:42,690 meeting, make a decision. I love that. 807 00:43:42,690 --> 00:43:48,925 So I love I love the word militant because it it expresses 808 00:43:48,925 --> 00:43:55,765 just how intensely important it is to to cut off or to 809 00:43:55,805 --> 00:44:01,205 extinguish behaviors that are contrary to team effectiveness. 810 00:44:01,220 --> 00:44:06,228 Right? That's I will also say 811 00:44:06,228 --> 00:44:10,710 triangulation, that is a real concept that you do not learn 812 00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:15,616 in business books. I've seen I mean, we've both 813 00:44:15,616 --> 00:44:22,025 seen CEOs and a CEO that, you know, literally came to his 814 00:44:22,025 --> 00:44:26,025 fall through a protracted triangulation. 815 00:44:26,025 --> 00:44:29,690 And you think you're adding value when you're in a triangle. 816 00:44:29,690 --> 00:44:33,796 You're, yeah, oh yeah, I can You think you're being part of a 817 00:44:33,796 --> 00:44:36,840 problem solving scenario when in fact you're just perpetuating 818 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,690 and emboldening the problem by being in this triangle. 819 00:44:41,215 --> 00:44:46,629 Takes a lot of dis takes a lot of awareness and also, I would 820 00:44:46,629 --> 00:44:53,335 say, kind of resilience or fortitude to say, no. 821 00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:57,484 You guys figure this out. I'd add to that, Jonathan, is 822 00:44:57,484 --> 00:44:59,750 that's just great parenting advice. 823 00:44:59,750 --> 00:45:01,190 Yeah. I mean, happens there too. 824 00:45:01,190 --> 00:45:02,500 Right? We've got eleven kids, I 825 00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:05,648 think, between three of us. So, you know, great parenting 826 00:45:05,648 --> 00:45:07,790 advice is avoiding being triangulated. 827 00:45:07,805 --> 00:45:11,045 Avoid being triangulated. Most of my leadership lessons 828 00:45:11,053 --> 00:45:14,125 came from having four kids. But that triangulation, okay, 829 00:45:14,133 --> 00:45:17,305 that sounds like a great idea. Have you spoken to this person 830 00:45:17,305 --> 00:45:19,527 about it? And so the second thing I think 831 00:45:19,527 --> 00:45:23,050 is the point I wanted to make, building on what Ken said, is 832 00:45:23,050 --> 00:45:26,140 this idea that sometimes as a leader, it's really easy for us 833 00:45:26,140 --> 00:45:28,622 to get frustrated when people aren't collaborating or aren't 834 00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:32,030 being seen to collaborate. And yet the systems and 835 00:45:32,038 --> 00:45:35,650 structures and processes, the ecosystem in which they exist, 836 00:45:35,650 --> 00:45:39,949 is all geared towards incentivizing individual 837 00:45:39,949 --> 00:45:42,385 performance. Yeah. 838 00:45:42,385 --> 00:45:45,665 So are not If they're in the ecosystem and they say, Well, 839 00:45:45,665 --> 00:45:47,877 I've got my function. If my function does well, I look 840 00:45:47,877 --> 00:45:51,065 good and I make my boss happy and I keep my job. 841 00:45:51,140 --> 00:45:52,782 Right? What's my incentive to go and 842 00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:55,803 step left and right and make sure that my peers are doing 843 00:45:55,803 --> 00:45:57,612 okay? And really, that's part of the 844 00:45:57,612 --> 00:46:01,055 system that the leader can see and adapt and mold and make a 845 00:46:01,055 --> 00:46:04,285 difference on and be militant about if they have to, about 846 00:46:04,293 --> 00:46:07,929 saying, hang on a minute. When when one wins, we all win. 847 00:46:07,929 --> 00:46:09,735 When one loses, we all lose. 848 00:46:09,735 --> 00:46:13,855 And so how can you break down? Or how can you catch that early? 849 00:46:14,215 --> 00:46:17,575 How can you catch that early in ways that create systems that 850 00:46:17,575 --> 00:46:20,240 reward Yeah. Collaborative behavior? 851 00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:22,092 Because most of our organizations don't. 852 00:46:22,092 --> 00:46:23,360 Alright. That's taking it to the next 853 00:46:23,368 --> 00:46:26,233 level because it it's one thing to just catch it To enforce it, 854 00:46:26,233 --> 00:46:29,760 but to build a system through a reward structure Sure. 855 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,339 That goes beyond just rewarding individual performance to also 856 00:46:33,339 --> 00:46:35,605 rewarding collaboration and team performance. 857 00:46:35,605 --> 00:46:37,625 Yep. And what that ends up doing, 858 00:46:37,625 --> 00:46:40,217 you know, and we've seen this a lot of times, which is you end 859 00:46:40,217 --> 00:46:42,949 up with sort of conflict in in the group that's hard to resolve 860 00:46:42,949 --> 00:46:44,725 because they they can both justify. 861 00:46:44,725 --> 00:46:47,440 Both people or all people can justify their own position. 862 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,560 We just simply react to people who don't seem to be getting on 863 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,400 and saying, Okay, that will take care of itself. 864 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:53,520 Oh, you got to take care of that. 865 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,250 Or, I'm going to make a decision that puts you on one side or 866 00:46:56,250 --> 00:46:58,002 the other. What we don't think about, and 867 00:46:58,010 --> 00:47:00,384 again, this is to your point, this is advanced level 868 00:47:00,384 --> 00:47:02,368 leadership, which is seeing what are the systems and structures 869 00:47:02,368 --> 00:47:04,705 that would encourage this behavior to happen? 870 00:47:04,705 --> 00:47:08,997 And how can I not just react to it at the end or even see it 871 00:47:08,997 --> 00:47:11,593 earlier, but actually get ahead of it and make the adjustments 872 00:47:11,593 --> 00:47:14,561 so that people are incentivized to collaborate and to see 873 00:47:14,561 --> 00:47:17,020 around corners and to help each other out? 874 00:47:17,020 --> 00:47:20,500 Right? That's part of, again, sort of 875 00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:23,820 we have beginner, intermediate, advanced level leadership. 876 00:47:23,820 --> 00:47:25,900 That is part of the advanced level leadership. 877 00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:29,466 So one of my favorite parts of Let's Go is the four 878 00:47:29,466 --> 00:47:30,655 leadership types. Right? 879 00:47:30,655 --> 00:47:36,620 So you have the future shaper, sense maker, community 880 00:47:36,628 --> 00:47:40,495 builder, and the role model. Okay. 881 00:47:40,495 --> 00:47:48,432 So when you work with Ken, you know, leadership type comes to 882 00:47:48,432 --> 00:47:49,440 mind? Yeah. 883 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,000 These are the four dimensions of leadership that I have seen 884 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,640 through the history and research I did back twenty five 885 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,712 years ago about leadership, why it exists, why it is common 886 00:47:58,712 --> 00:48:01,815 in all cultures and all civilizations, why it has 887 00:48:01,815 --> 00:48:04,434 existed or persisted through time, and why even when we talk 888 00:48:04,434 --> 00:48:07,535 about AI and tech and all these things that are going to be 889 00:48:07,535 --> 00:48:10,059 non carbon life forms. At the end of the day, if you're 890 00:48:10,059 --> 00:48:12,765 a carbon based life form leading other carbon based life 891 00:48:12,765 --> 00:48:14,860 forms, these four things are necessary. 892 00:48:14,860 --> 00:48:17,660 The expectations of your followers are that you are a 893 00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:21,100 role model, you're a community builder, you're a sense maker, 894 00:48:21,100 --> 00:48:22,860 and a future shaper. Why? 895 00:48:22,860 --> 00:48:25,492 Because they tap into underlying needs that we have as 896 00:48:25,492 --> 00:48:30,025 human beings to have a sense of self, a sense of belonging, 897 00:48:30,033 --> 00:48:32,705 a sense of meaning, and a sense of purpose. 898 00:48:32,705 --> 00:48:35,505 That's the high level theme behind the book. 899 00:48:35,505 --> 00:48:37,745 As it relates to Ken, think we've been working together 900 00:48:37,745 --> 00:48:41,400 now for six years. It's been quite a while under 901 00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,514 two different guises. And I'd say when we first 902 00:48:44,514 --> 00:48:47,928 started working together, again, was in pandemic or I think we 903 00:48:47,928 --> 00:48:51,489 were in the pandemic. So that was a surreal Alice in 904 00:48:51,497 --> 00:48:54,500 Wonderland world that we were all living in anyway. 905 00:48:54,975 --> 00:49:00,870 But there I think, when I surveyed the team, we then did 906 00:49:00,870 --> 00:49:03,871 that feedback just for Ken first, and then we actually 907 00:49:03,871 --> 00:49:06,815 ended up doing a team session too, which I'll talk about. 908 00:49:06,815 --> 00:49:10,320 But that first session with the feedback was they clearly saw 909 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,240 him as somebody who had integrity. 910 00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,156 Like he really is humble, he has integrity, he's not trying 911 00:49:15,164 --> 00:49:18,560 to steal the show, he isn't trying to one up people. 912 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,880 And they saw that he had a very clear perspective on the 913 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:26,995 organization, the industry, and the strategy moving forward. 914 00:49:26,995 --> 00:49:31,067 What we saw then was, if anything, just this introversion 915 00:49:31,067 --> 00:49:33,475 playing out in a couple of areas. 916 00:49:33,475 --> 00:49:35,971 So there was a pull from the organization that said, We want 917 00:49:35,971 --> 00:49:38,555 more from Ken than he's currently giving us today. 918 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,280 And I think either just, you know, like, I'm busy, I'm 919 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:43,360 responsible, I'm conscientious. 920 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,280 I'm also introverted. I've only got so much energy 921 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,190 to go around. And so we spend a lot of time 922 00:49:47,198 --> 00:49:49,280 saying, how do we refuel? How do we restore? 923 00:49:49,288 --> 00:49:52,302 How do we refresh? So that you have energy to 924 00:49:52,302 --> 00:49:55,942 deploy where it's needed, not where, where you think it's 925 00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:58,483 wanted or warranted. Does that make And so we 926 00:49:58,483 --> 00:50:00,935 pulled that out. So really, it wasn't that there 927 00:50:00,935 --> 00:50:03,959 was any deficiency in any of the four areas, if that's the 928 00:50:03,959 --> 00:50:06,195 right way of describing it, or any of the four areas that 929 00:50:06,195 --> 00:50:07,875 weren't. It was really just a double 930 00:50:07,883 --> 00:50:11,870 click in a couple of areas. So they saw him as a role model. 931 00:50:11,870 --> 00:50:14,670 They saw him as a community builder in that Ken was able to 932 00:50:14,670 --> 00:50:17,470 create the container for people to get on well together. 933 00:50:17,470 --> 00:50:20,750 But sometimes when there was conflict or sometimes when they 934 00:50:20,750 --> 00:50:23,537 were looking for something from him and he had in his mind had 935 00:50:23,537 --> 00:50:24,765 said, yeah. Communicated that. 936 00:50:24,765 --> 00:50:27,932 So, you know, if you're like me, he's incredibly good at 937 00:50:27,932 --> 00:50:30,634 getting things done. Like, his whole philosophy is 938 00:50:30,642 --> 00:50:33,654 around being able to accomplish at a very high level and then 939 00:50:33,654 --> 00:50:36,035 step away and say what what great work that was, not what 940 00:50:36,043 --> 00:50:38,844 a great person I am. But there was a pull from the 941 00:50:38,844 --> 00:50:41,700 team to say, well, we want to be able to get to know you more, 942 00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:44,065 want to be able to get to know each other more, we want to be 943 00:50:44,065 --> 00:50:46,720 able to celebrate our wins. And that is part of the 944 00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:48,318 community building. So it wasn't that it wasn't 945 00:50:48,318 --> 00:50:51,514 there, it was just that second step that took a little bit 946 00:50:51,514 --> 00:50:54,299 more energy. Likewise, the strategic vision 947 00:50:54,299 --> 00:50:58,175 was very clear and very comprehensive, but there was 948 00:50:58,175 --> 00:51:00,155 just this other thing that leaders have to do. 949 00:51:00,155 --> 00:51:02,238 And again, both of these things are sort of moments, the 950 00:51:02,238 --> 00:51:05,053 golden moments, as I like to call them, where you're just 951 00:51:05,053 --> 00:51:09,209 taking that extra pause or the extra step or the extra thirty 952 00:51:09,217 --> 00:51:12,308 seconds, two minutes, five minutes with somebody to build 953 00:51:12,308 --> 00:51:15,243 the bridge between where they are today and where they're 954 00:51:15,243 --> 00:51:17,220 going. And so in the community builder, 955 00:51:17,220 --> 00:51:19,925 it's about relationships. It's about taking an extra 956 00:51:19,933 --> 00:51:22,886 step to build connectivity and connection and collaboration 957 00:51:22,894 --> 00:51:26,097 across the team. And then in terms of the 958 00:51:26,097 --> 00:51:29,125 strategy, it's actually building it back from, it was clear, 959 00:51:29,125 --> 00:51:30,805 but what does it mean for me today? 960 00:51:30,805 --> 00:51:33,965 Where we're going is really clear, but what's my next step? 961 00:51:34,250 --> 00:51:38,262 That's where we started. Today, I'll say to Ken's 962 00:51:38,262 --> 00:51:42,010 credit again, he's just amazing at sort of taking on feedback 963 00:51:42,010 --> 00:51:44,662 and adapting and evolving. We don't have any issues 964 00:51:44,662 --> 00:51:47,106 around that. Today, it really is about how 965 00:51:47,106 --> 00:51:51,092 do we lean into the strategic, future proofing the 966 00:51:51,092 --> 00:51:52,025 organization. Wow. 967 00:51:52,025 --> 00:51:55,465 And I'm going to use it I've been working on this one because 968 00:51:55,465 --> 00:51:58,964 we're talking about roofing, which is you need to fix the 969 00:51:58,972 --> 00:52:02,995 roof while the sun is shining. So that's while the sun is 970 00:52:02,995 --> 00:52:06,400 shining. That's an old business cliche. 971 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,120 And so we are literally thinking about what does the 972 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:10,880 next step strategically look like? 973 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,400 Like, where can this organization go? 974 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,331 What is the potential? If we unlock the potential in 975 00:52:15,339 --> 00:52:17,947 those four divisional presidents, where could we go 976 00:52:17,947 --> 00:52:21,393 from here in a way that's sustainable, in a way that could 977 00:52:21,393 --> 00:52:23,495 be transformational, in a way that's really meaningful? 978 00:52:23,495 --> 00:52:26,055 What's the hardest part of leading? 979 00:52:26,055 --> 00:52:29,695 What have you found in in in all these years leading? 980 00:52:30,780 --> 00:52:33,660 What's the hardest part of leading that that nobody 981 00:52:33,660 --> 00:52:36,200 prepares you for? Like all those books you 982 00:52:36,208 --> 00:52:42,680 mentioned, like Good to Great, you know, What Got You Here 983 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,926 Won't Get You There. Upside Management. 984 00:52:44,926 --> 00:52:47,551 Yeah. What the first time yeah. 985 00:52:47,551 --> 00:52:49,425 Let's go. Like, what what what you know, 986 00:52:49,425 --> 00:52:54,706 what's the hardest part of leading that nobody or no book 987 00:52:54,706 --> 00:52:56,545 prepares you for? Sure. 988 00:52:56,545 --> 00:53:02,030 I I I'm gonna start with one and then maybe add a couple more 989 00:53:02,030 --> 00:53:04,680 on too. The first one, I would say the 990 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,446 hardest part that no book prepares you for, I've never 991 00:53:07,446 --> 00:53:11,280 even seen it mentioned anywhere, is energy management. 992 00:53:12,005 --> 00:53:15,965 People talk about time management, which is which is 993 00:53:15,965 --> 00:53:19,925 part of energy management. But the reality is, you know, 994 00:53:19,925 --> 00:53:22,325 everybody wants some of the people want a sum of your time, 995 00:53:22,325 --> 00:53:27,872 but not as a leader, different things you do with your time 996 00:53:27,872 --> 00:53:31,600 have vastly different energy drains on you. 997 00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,480 Correct. Like you said, for me for me, 998 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:40,664 going to going to whatever, let's say, the a an industry 999 00:53:40,664 --> 00:53:44,648 cocktail party where I need to go around the room and and 1000 00:53:44,648 --> 00:53:47,675 check-in with all of my main customers, etcetera. 1001 00:53:47,675 --> 00:53:51,351 That may that may be a one hour cocktail party, but that's 1002 00:53:51,351 --> 00:53:54,573 more tiring than four hours spent developing a strategy 1003 00:53:54,573 --> 00:53:55,890 paper. Right? 1004 00:53:55,890 --> 00:54:00,522 And so so to me, that's that would be the key thing is 1005 00:54:00,522 --> 00:54:02,574 understanding. And for a long time, sorry, for 1006 00:54:02,574 --> 00:54:06,176 a long time, I just thought, you know, look at I'm I'm 1007 00:54:06,176 --> 00:54:08,474 invincible. And so whatever energy I need, 1008 00:54:08,482 --> 00:54:12,315 that's what I've got because, of course, I can do anything. 1009 00:54:12,315 --> 00:54:16,330 But maybe as especially as maybe as I get older and some of 1010 00:54:16,330 --> 00:54:19,247 the realities of physiology start to catch up with me, I 1011 00:54:19,247 --> 00:54:23,035 have to acknowledge more and more I have twenty four hours 1012 00:54:23,035 --> 00:54:26,518 in a day, but I don't have twenty four worth of doing 1013 00:54:26,518 --> 00:54:29,290 tasks that require maximum burn, you know? 1014 00:54:29,290 --> 00:54:32,250 Like a ****, I can't do a, I'm not Deadpool. 1015 00:54:32,250 --> 00:54:35,370 I can't make, I can't do maximum effort the whole time. 1016 00:54:35,370 --> 00:54:38,661 So I think that would be, if I were gonna be saying to people 1017 00:54:38,661 --> 00:54:41,155 that are like maybe starting that part of their career 1018 00:54:41,155 --> 00:54:44,345 where things start to go like this, would be to start 1019 00:54:44,353 --> 00:54:47,492 thinking about that now. Hey, what are the things that 1020 00:54:47,492 --> 00:54:50,105 give you energy? And then with the things that 1021 00:54:50,105 --> 00:54:53,185 take energy, what's the relative burn rate? 1022 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:57,560 And how can you try to structure your commitments and 1023 00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:02,312 time so that you don't find yourself in a mission critical 1024 00:55:02,312 --> 00:55:06,175 event and you have no energy to rise to the occasion? 1025 00:55:06,175 --> 00:55:12,843 Well, it's interesting. I think we conflate I think we 1026 00:55:12,843 --> 00:55:18,310 naturally conflate time and energy until we have this 1027 00:55:18,318 --> 00:55:23,058 realization that that one hour task just, like, put me out of 1028 00:55:23,058 --> 00:55:24,710 the game for the rest of the day. 1029 00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:29,045 You know? It's it's it's really like it's 1030 00:55:29,045 --> 00:55:33,829 it's almost like there's two fuel tanks that you need to be 1031 00:55:33,829 --> 00:55:38,025 mindful of. One is the time tank, which is 1032 00:55:38,025 --> 00:55:41,882 fairly straightforward. But then the energy tank is 1033 00:55:41,890 --> 00:55:46,929 not straightforward because it relies on your underlying 1034 00:55:46,929 --> 00:55:51,780 structure of what energizes you versus what de energizes you, 1035 00:55:52,540 --> 00:55:56,380 as well as what might be generically I'm going add a 1036 00:55:56,380 --> 00:55:59,180 third as well because The three fuel things? 1037 00:55:59,180 --> 00:56:00,380 Ken will know this. What's the three? 1038 00:56:00,380 --> 00:56:02,225 We talk about time, space, and energy. 1039 00:56:02,225 --> 00:56:03,925 Time, space, and energy. Okay. 1040 00:56:03,925 --> 00:56:06,925 And so time, personal and professional. 1041 00:56:06,925 --> 00:56:08,785 Yes. So it's really interesting. 1042 00:56:08,785 --> 00:56:10,785 It's very important to think about how am I spending my time 1043 00:56:10,785 --> 00:56:13,217 personally and professionally? What's giving me energy and 1044 00:56:13,225 --> 00:56:15,640 what's taking energy away? Then there is energy management, 1045 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:17,320 which is what are my natural biorhythms? 1046 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,160 When do I do my best work? And sometimes we forget that. 1047 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,400 But I remember one transformational coaching 1048 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,440 conversation I had with somebody who literally their 1049 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,120 best work was between eight and twelve. 1050 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,645 That's when they were on. And they worked in a bank. 1051 00:56:30,645 --> 00:56:33,991 Very, very you know, lots of, assets under management, very 1052 00:56:33,991 --> 00:56:35,645 important. But they would actually AM to 1053 00:56:35,645 --> 00:56:37,685 twelve PM? AM to twelve PM. 1054 00:56:37,685 --> 00:56:39,109 Yes. So that's more out of 1055 00:56:39,117 --> 00:56:41,445 distinction because for me, it's eight PM to twelve twelve AM. 1056 00:56:41,445 --> 00:56:42,925 Right. I was gonna say. 1057 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,088 I know when I text Jonathan, I'll get a text back between 1058 00:56:46,088 --> 00:56:48,120 eight pm and twelve, between midnight. 1059 00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,920 But this but the person just literally, we shifted their 1060 00:56:50,928 --> 00:56:53,800 decision making. So if it was a complex decision, 1061 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,320 complex decision making meeting that had lots of variables in 1062 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:01,581 it, it went in that slot. And again, we just decided 1063 00:57:01,589 --> 00:57:04,974 this as an experiment. And then the afternoon would 1064 00:57:04,982 --> 00:57:09,610 be for one on one small group meetings, reading emails, 1065 00:57:09,610 --> 00:57:13,292 writing emails. And it sounds so basic and 1066 00:57:13,292 --> 00:57:15,548 fundamental, but the person was fortunate enough to be able to 1067 00:57:15,548 --> 00:57:18,342 put things in that slot that were complex, but that were 1068 00:57:18,342 --> 00:57:21,366 energy draining. Again, somebody who was also 1069 00:57:21,366 --> 00:57:23,997 an introvert. And this person said to me, 1070 00:57:24,005 --> 00:57:26,795 literally, that's the biggest, effective change I have made 1071 00:57:26,803 --> 00:57:30,145 in my twenty five year career, is just simply putting things 1072 00:57:30,145 --> 00:57:34,973 in that slot. And so we can't overestimate the 1073 00:57:34,973 --> 00:57:38,730 power of thinking about time, your energy, your rhythms of 1074 00:57:38,730 --> 00:57:42,210 energy, and then also the space that's around you. 1075 00:57:42,330 --> 00:57:45,450 So I think that sounds peripheral, but we normally, 1076 00:57:45,450 --> 00:57:49,170 most people now, whether they want to or not, may have a 1077 00:57:49,170 --> 00:57:51,527 working space and they may have a space inside their home 1078 00:57:51,527 --> 00:57:54,903 that they work at as well. So thinking about how does the 1079 00:57:54,903 --> 00:57:56,795 space serve me? Is it organized? 1080 00:57:56,795 --> 00:58:00,475 If I'm high aesthetics, is it aesthetically pleasing? 1081 00:58:00,475 --> 00:58:03,115 Is it something that gets me to do my best work on a 1082 00:58:03,115 --> 00:58:05,390 sustainable basis? And so we think about time, 1083 00:58:05,390 --> 00:58:07,510 space, and energy personally and professionally. 1084 00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:09,190 Those for me are the three legs of the stool. 1085 00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:11,350 I think when you're younger, you'd say, just going to beat it 1086 00:58:11,350 --> 00:58:13,305 to death with hard work. I'll just work my way through 1087 00:58:13,305 --> 00:58:14,790 this, and that becomes a badge of honor. 1088 00:58:14,790 --> 00:58:18,063 And I think that is helpful knowing what your boundaries 1089 00:58:18,063 --> 00:58:20,407 are, understanding what your boundaries are because they 1090 00:58:20,407 --> 00:58:22,165 evolve. But at some point you have to 1091 00:58:22,165 --> 00:58:24,807 think, if I'm going to be sustainable and without 1092 00:58:24,807 --> 00:58:27,482 oscillating through making sure that I'm emotionally 1093 00:58:27,482 --> 00:58:30,313 regulated, I don't have boundaries around that, I'm more 1094 00:58:30,313 --> 00:58:33,714 likely to be dysregulated if I'm not centered, grounded, if I 1095 00:58:33,714 --> 00:58:35,930 don't have good sleep, nutrition, exercise, if I 1096 00:58:35,930 --> 00:58:37,890 haven't thought about time, space and energy. 1097 00:58:37,890 --> 00:58:40,898 And so for people who are sort of mid stage career now thinking 1098 00:58:40,898 --> 00:58:45,270 about how am I going to make this last, wherever I may be, I 1099 00:58:45,270 --> 00:58:48,869 would urge them to think about time, space, and energy 1100 00:58:48,877 --> 00:58:50,945 personally and professionally. Yeah. 1101 00:58:50,945 --> 00:58:55,069 Yeah. So I there's there's two more 1102 00:58:55,069 --> 00:58:58,365 topics I wanna cover before we we wrap. 1103 00:58:58,365 --> 00:59:03,828 So at Atlas, I know it's a cult the culture is products 1104 00:59:03,836 --> 00:59:08,130 with purpose and people with passion. 1105 00:59:08,490 --> 00:59:12,250 So products with purpose, people with passion. 1106 00:59:12,250 --> 00:59:17,441 How do you make sure those aren't just words on a wall or 1107 00:59:17,441 --> 00:59:19,585 on a fancy booklet? Sure. 1108 00:59:19,585 --> 00:59:21,905 How do you make it happen? Me personally? 1109 00:59:21,905 --> 00:59:22,445 Yeah. Yes. 1110 00:59:22,445 --> 00:59:24,065 As the leader? As the president? 1111 00:59:24,065 --> 00:59:32,660 I guess the bumper sticker answer would be intentionally 1112 00:59:32,668 --> 00:59:36,902 reinforcing those. And to put a little bit more 1113 00:59:36,910 --> 00:59:39,180 description on what does that look like. 1114 00:59:39,180 --> 00:59:42,180 So for example, products with purpose. 1115 00:59:42,805 --> 00:59:47,445 I in town hall, we'll I'll talk about it. 1116 00:59:47,445 --> 00:59:49,925 So we do basically quarterly town halls. 1117 00:59:49,925 --> 00:59:54,520 They're they're they're mixed virtual in person so that 1118 00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,608 everybody around all of our North American factories can 1119 00:59:57,608 --> 00:59:59,840 join in, but I tie it to something real. 1120 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,800 So for example, I've used before, I've said, hey. 1121 01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,293 Look at you. You know, maybe it may not 1122 01:00:05,293 --> 01:00:07,435 look like our products. We're making shingles. 1123 01:00:07,435 --> 01:00:11,195 We're making insulation board that may not look as sexy as 1124 01:00:11,195 --> 01:00:15,515 developing the next AI model or, you know, I said, however, 1125 01:00:15,515 --> 01:00:19,571 you know, you look at you look at Maslow's hierarchy of 1126 01:00:19,571 --> 01:00:22,900 needs, the base of the pyramid is shelter. 1127 01:00:22,900 --> 01:00:26,580 One of the bases is shelter. So nobody's gonna nobody's 1128 01:00:26,588 --> 01:00:30,500 developing that self driving car if the roof's leaking. 1129 01:00:30,500 --> 01:00:33,960 Right? So stand up, you know, hold your 1130 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:38,065 head high about making shingles because we are the base of the 1131 01:00:38,065 --> 01:00:41,090 pyramid, you know? So let's just say stuff like 1132 01:00:41,090 --> 01:00:43,735 that, things with people with passion. 1133 01:00:45,455 --> 01:00:50,490 We've in one thing that we've that I've implemented since I 1134 01:00:50,490 --> 01:00:54,958 started at Atlas was being more intentional and vocal 1135 01:00:54,958 --> 01:00:58,134 within the company about what we're doing with community 1136 01:00:58,134 --> 01:01:02,654 involvement just to show and not not just that Atlas is 1137 01:01:02,654 --> 01:01:06,095 writing a check, but here are the people at Atlas that are 1138 01:01:06,095 --> 01:01:09,185 involved in driving these things and just reinforcing that to 1139 01:01:09,185 --> 01:01:09,825 people. Hey. 1140 01:01:09,825 --> 01:01:12,385 Look at here are the people with passion at at Atlas. 1141 01:01:12,385 --> 01:01:14,825 This is what passion looks like here. 1142 01:01:15,025 --> 01:01:19,741 It is really interesting to think about the the, you know, 1143 01:01:19,741 --> 01:01:22,130 sort of, you know, roofing material. 1144 01:01:22,130 --> 01:01:25,980 You know? It's like nothing is more unsexy 1145 01:01:25,980 --> 01:01:31,112 and important at the same time than and and by the way, we we 1146 01:01:31,112 --> 01:01:36,015 had, you know, a few months ago, Steve Bell, who is the president 1147 01:01:36,015 --> 01:01:38,575 of Brickworks North America. And they make bricks. 1148 01:01:38,575 --> 01:01:42,000 Right. Also, super unsexy, a brick, 1149 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:47,180 and yet, like, super essential to, civilization. 1150 01:01:47,180 --> 01:01:52,048 Right? And so it's just it's inspiring 1151 01:01:52,048 --> 01:01:57,194 just to think about what you go to work every day building 1152 01:01:57,194 --> 01:02:03,875 and scaling is literally protecting humanity at the, I 1153 01:02:03,875 --> 01:02:09,475 guess, the bottom level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and 1154 01:02:09,475 --> 01:02:11,645 how important that is, like shelter, right? 1155 01:02:11,645 --> 01:02:15,765 And how blessed so many of us are to have it, right? 1156 01:02:17,220 --> 01:02:19,740 And yeah. And so one is I think you have 1157 01:02:19,748 --> 01:02:24,382 to keep that in front of people. I think a lot of times is not I 1158 01:02:24,382 --> 01:02:29,140 don't think I know as leaders. We think that everybody. 1159 01:02:29,140 --> 01:02:30,837 I think this is just human nature. 1160 01:02:30,837 --> 01:02:33,374 It's not just leaders. Generally, it's human nature to 1161 01:02:33,374 --> 01:02:37,593 assume that everybody is kind of like you are, and that 1162 01:02:37,593 --> 01:02:42,285 probably everybody has the same perspective as you do. 1163 01:02:42,285 --> 01:02:46,610 And so the way that plays foul for us as leaders is things like 1164 01:02:46,610 --> 01:02:50,300 your strategy or your mission statement. 1165 01:02:50,300 --> 01:02:53,740 You're involved with it all the time and you just assume that 1166 01:02:53,740 --> 01:02:56,620 everybody's involved with it all the time, but they're not. 1167 01:02:56,620 --> 01:03:00,340 So therefore we have to be much more cognizant of leaders 1168 01:03:00,535 --> 01:03:04,866 to talk about that stuff until I tell peep I tell my team, look 1169 01:03:04,866 --> 01:03:06,731 it. If you're if you've been 1170 01:03:06,739 --> 01:03:10,375 talking about this strategic initiative to your your team 1171 01:03:10,383 --> 01:03:14,230 enough that you personally are sick to death of this thing, 1172 01:03:14,230 --> 01:03:17,830 you're probably just talking about it enough for it to stick 1173 01:03:17,830 --> 01:03:21,350 with the per the average person who's who's off here working 1174 01:03:21,350 --> 01:03:23,990 their their their normal eight hour job and don't see that 1175 01:03:23,990 --> 01:03:26,675 every day. You know what So Sage advice. 1176 01:03:26,675 --> 01:03:28,515 Which is actually something I learned. 1177 01:03:28,515 --> 01:03:32,631 That's a carryover from from when I was in sales because we 1178 01:03:32,631 --> 01:03:35,345 were out. We would go out and I was 1179 01:03:35,345 --> 01:03:37,915 shocked. We'd be out in front of 1180 01:03:37,915 --> 01:03:40,605 customers or plumbers, contractors, and we were 1181 01:03:40,605 --> 01:03:44,374 presenting products that had been in our portfolio for ten 1182 01:03:44,374 --> 01:03:46,802 years. And I'm thinking, why are we 1183 01:03:46,810 --> 01:03:50,320 talking about this is so old, like this is so I'm so sick. 1184 01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,052 And over and over again, like, really? 1185 01:03:52,052 --> 01:03:54,150 You you make that? You know, what you know? 1186 01:03:54,158 --> 01:03:57,051 I thought, hey, wait. If that's the case there, it's 1187 01:03:57,051 --> 01:04:00,437 gotta be the same, and it turned out to be true with employees 1188 01:04:00,437 --> 01:04:04,853 and things like strategy and your your mission, vision, 1189 01:04:04,853 --> 01:04:06,995 values. I love that. 1190 01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:11,270 What if you're almost sick, that means you're, you know, 1191 01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:14,230 doing it basically enough, maybe enough. 1192 01:04:14,230 --> 01:04:20,111 So when you step back and reflect on your career as a as 1193 01:04:20,111 --> 01:04:24,135 a leader, Ken, What advice would you want? 1194 01:04:24,135 --> 01:04:25,655 Jamie, I would love to hear from you as well. 1195 01:04:25,655 --> 01:04:30,788 Like, what advice would you want to impart and share with our 1196 01:04:30,788 --> 01:04:34,868 audience? I would say if I'm talking to 1197 01:04:34,868 --> 01:04:39,013 somebody who's earlier in their career and they're making that 1198 01:04:39,013 --> 01:04:42,710 maybe they're making that first step from being an individual 1199 01:04:42,710 --> 01:04:47,402 contributor to leading the team, being a first level manager, is 1200 01:04:47,402 --> 01:04:50,640 keep in mind you probably got promoted because you're the best 1201 01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:57,043 on that team at doing what you do, which ironically and 1202 01:04:57,043 --> 01:04:59,995 paradoxically means that you're now leading a group of 1203 01:04:59,995 --> 01:05:03,023 people who are gonna do a worse job at something than you 1204 01:05:03,023 --> 01:05:07,960 would do if you did it yourself. And so you need to learn how 1205 01:05:07,960 --> 01:05:13,485 to judge them by not what you would do, but what is considered 1206 01:05:13,485 --> 01:05:18,040 good good enough for that particular task or role. 1207 01:05:18,775 --> 01:05:23,287 Or else you will find yourself falling into, I need to jump in 1208 01:05:23,287 --> 01:05:26,095 and help them and get what they're doing, where all the 1209 01:05:26,103 --> 01:05:27,575 muscle memory lives. Right? 1210 01:05:27,575 --> 01:05:28,855 Exactly. Wow. 1211 01:05:28,855 --> 01:05:33,250 That's great advice, especially for somebody who's stepping 1212 01:05:33,250 --> 01:05:37,333 into a new leadership role, or maybe a first time leader, know 1213 01:05:37,333 --> 01:05:41,528 that there are forces that are going to want to pull you back 1214 01:05:41,528 --> 01:05:44,058 in, namely because you're going be leading a bunch of people 1215 01:05:44,058 --> 01:05:46,435 doing the thing you are most comfortable doing. 1216 01:05:46,435 --> 01:05:49,197 I mean, somebody who's moving into an executive or 1217 01:05:49,197 --> 01:05:53,977 especially a GM role, you probably got up to be in a 1218 01:05:53,977 --> 01:05:57,600 director level leader because you're really good at solving 1219 01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:00,814 problems. But when you move in, when you 1220 01:06:00,814 --> 01:06:05,138 become the lead of your whole function like a VP or even more 1221 01:06:05,138 --> 01:06:09,680 so a general manager, you more and more are gonna find that 1222 01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,485 you no longer have problems to solve. 1223 01:06:12,485 --> 01:06:17,890 You have dilemmas to manage. And success looks like maybe 1224 01:06:17,890 --> 01:06:22,485 making that a little better or not letting it get worse. 1225 01:06:22,485 --> 01:06:26,799 And I'm gonna, and let me just use one, for example, like a 1226 01:06:26,799 --> 01:06:29,430 real life example. You have two customers. 1227 01:06:29,438 --> 01:06:33,424 They're both very important. They both want to be your they 1228 01:06:33,424 --> 01:06:39,612 both want you to, fire the other customer and and give you all 1229 01:06:39,612 --> 01:06:41,910 of their attention. Well, you can't do that. 1230 01:06:41,918 --> 01:06:44,745 That is not a problem. You're never gonna solve for 1231 01:06:44,745 --> 01:06:48,575 like ten years from now. You're gonna still have both of 1232 01:06:48,575 --> 01:06:50,985 those customers pulling on you that way. 1233 01:06:50,985 --> 01:06:54,425 And as an executive, you need to find a way to navigate that 1234 01:06:54,425 --> 01:06:59,650 tension effectively without letting things fly apart. 1235 01:07:01,450 --> 01:07:07,050 So going from managing problems to managing dilemmas. 1236 01:07:07,050 --> 01:07:08,105 Yes. Yeah. 1237 01:07:08,105 --> 01:07:12,185 Where you're choosing between like sort of multiple bad 1238 01:07:12,185 --> 01:07:14,345 options in some cases. That's right. 1239 01:07:14,345 --> 01:07:18,334 And in the interest of full disclosure, I didn't come up 1240 01:07:18,334 --> 01:07:21,225 with that idea. I like to tell people I'm not a, 1241 01:07:21,225 --> 01:07:24,645 I don't consider myself like, super creative in terms of you 1242 01:07:24,653 --> 01:07:28,230 give me a white sheet of paper and I I I paint it on it. 1243 01:07:28,230 --> 01:07:33,010 But what I'm I consider myself pretty good at is, knowing how 1244 01:07:33,010 --> 01:07:34,870 to grab stuff from other people. 1245 01:07:34,870 --> 01:07:38,915 And I think there was a book called, like, is it, like, steal 1246 01:07:38,915 --> 01:07:41,523 like an artist? I think I think there is a book 1247 01:07:41,523 --> 01:07:44,275 called steal like an artist. I think the I think the 1248 01:07:44,283 --> 01:07:47,605 concept in that is that most artists don't just truly start 1249 01:07:47,613 --> 01:07:51,475 with no ideas in their head. They they pick and choose from 1250 01:07:51,475 --> 01:07:54,130 things that they to synthesize and integrate it. 1251 01:07:54,130 --> 01:07:58,690 Exactly. So that's that's my thought. 1252 01:07:58,690 --> 01:08:01,056 And important. And apply it appropriately to 1253 01:08:01,056 --> 01:08:02,028 the context. Yeah. 1254 01:08:02,028 --> 01:08:03,810 That's, I think, is the differentiator. 1255 01:08:03,810 --> 01:08:06,505 Gravity will pull you down in an organization. 1256 01:08:06,505 --> 01:08:09,625 Just by the very nature of the organisation. 1257 01:08:09,625 --> 01:08:12,838 Something will flare up and it will seem like it's urgent and 1258 01:08:12,838 --> 01:08:15,415 important. And so you will constantly be 1259 01:08:15,423 --> 01:08:19,122 The opportunity is there for you to gravitate back down into 1260 01:08:19,130 --> 01:08:22,470 roles that felt comfortable or things that you did that feel 1261 01:08:22,470 --> 01:08:25,682 familiar or where you think, Nobody can do this the way I 1262 01:08:25,682 --> 01:08:27,706 can. And so part of, if we're 1263 01:08:27,714 --> 01:08:30,881 thinking about building or architecting a career, the 1264 01:08:30,881 --> 01:08:35,517 first one is about how do I develop that capability in 1265 01:08:35,517 --> 01:08:38,270 things that aren't me? And it can be in your team, it 1266 01:08:38,270 --> 01:08:40,944 can be in people in your team, but it can be other ways too, 1267 01:08:40,944 --> 01:08:43,715 but to mitigate and compensate for that possibility is to 1268 01:08:43,715 --> 01:08:47,035 drag you down. And if you do the time space 1269 01:08:47,035 --> 01:08:50,024 energy audit, you'll see where you're spending your time. 1270 01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:53,160 There are opportunities for you to build an ecosystem or to 1271 01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:56,279 architect a world in which somebody else can do it for you. 1272 01:08:56,279 --> 01:08:59,522 And someday when you get there, you might find that they are 1273 01:08:59,529 --> 01:09:02,462 able to do it better even. So that would be my first 1274 01:09:02,462 --> 01:09:07,622 thought, which is find the anti gravity boots, however you 1275 01:09:07,622 --> 01:09:10,375 might find them, wherever you can locate them. 1276 01:09:10,375 --> 01:09:13,995 The second one is this, which unless you come in from the 1277 01:09:13,995 --> 01:09:15,910 outside, this kind of builds on what Ken was talking about. 1278 01:09:15,910 --> 01:09:18,453 Unless you come from the outside, once you become a 1279 01:09:18,453 --> 01:09:21,603 leader, many of the people who were your peers now become 1280 01:09:21,603 --> 01:09:24,785 your direct reports. And I have yet to read a book 1281 01:09:24,792 --> 01:09:28,545 about that, but it's visceral. So the challenges that you 1282 01:09:28,545 --> 01:09:35,537 have had as a peer among peers, as a first amongst equal, if 1283 01:09:35,537 --> 01:09:40,215 you like, how you treated those folks or what you did or how 1284 01:09:40,215 --> 01:09:43,419 you're perceived by the team who were your peers now become 1285 01:09:43,419 --> 01:09:47,015 your direct reports, that can make or break you. 1286 01:09:47,029 --> 01:09:50,870 And so we will tend to think in our silos and we might throw 1287 01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:54,390 elbows or we might try and think this is a zero sum game. 1288 01:09:54,390 --> 01:09:56,630 What I have found in the work that I've done with leaders is 1289 01:09:56,630 --> 01:09:59,996 that if you're able to not do that, to collaborate, to get 1290 01:09:59,996 --> 01:10:03,579 ahead of the curve, So we talked about this on the last 1291 01:10:03,579 --> 01:10:05,365 podcast, which is looking left and right. 1292 01:10:05,365 --> 01:10:07,365 How are my peers doing and looking up and down? 1293 01:10:07,365 --> 01:10:10,565 How can I be a servant to my organization? 1294 01:10:10,565 --> 01:10:13,076 Looking out and in, how can I bring disruptive ideas and 1295 01:10:13,076 --> 01:10:16,400 steal like an artist, bring things in from the outside and 1296 01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:20,422 adapt them to the context? But particularly thinking 1297 01:10:20,422 --> 01:10:25,358 about, if I do this well, my peers become my direct 1298 01:10:25,358 --> 01:10:27,293 reports. What's that going to say about 1299 01:10:27,293 --> 01:10:29,285 me? Like how are they going to 1300 01:10:29,285 --> 01:10:31,010 treat me? Are they rooting for me? 1301 01:10:31,018 --> 01:10:34,920 Do they want me to win? Or are they silently dragging 1302 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:40,221 their heels? And that should inform, maybe it 1303 01:10:40,221 --> 01:10:42,680 can inform the way that you operate today. 1304 01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:47,120 Yeah. This is two well, three because 1305 01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,280 we got a two for from Ken. Three really solid pieces of 1306 01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:54,420 advice. I actually love the advice you 1307 01:10:54,420 --> 01:11:00,425 shared earlier. So this is a Ken Kenism. 1308 01:11:00,865 --> 01:11:06,641 Make many small mistakes once. Would you would would you say 1309 01:11:06,641 --> 01:11:07,409 I would. Yeah. 1310 01:11:07,409 --> 01:11:10,792 Yeah. But and and the once piece being 1311 01:11:10,792 --> 01:11:14,027 really important because that means you've used that mistake 1312 01:11:14,027 --> 01:11:20,640 as or that that failure, if you will, as a learning 1313 01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:23,200 opportunity to propel yourself forward. 1314 01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:25,299 Right? Ultimately, it becomes, you 1315 01:11:25,299 --> 01:11:27,475 know, that lemon turns into lemonade. 1316 01:11:27,475 --> 01:11:29,675 Right? That becomes sometimes the thing 1317 01:11:29,675 --> 01:11:35,119 that that propels you forward. So, what what if what a rich 1318 01:11:35,127 --> 01:11:42,370 podcast episode on leadership. Again, this is not, this is not 1319 01:11:42,370 --> 01:11:47,497 a, you know, master class, on leadership philosophy and 1320 01:11:47,497 --> 01:11:52,545 theory and research. This is leadership in the 1321 01:11:52,545 --> 01:11:58,715 trenches, building roof shingles Going around the world, 1322 01:11:58,715 --> 01:12:04,305 managing supply chains, making mistakes, and somehow moving 1323 01:12:04,305 --> 01:12:07,640 everything forward along the way through great leadership. 1324 01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:10,760 Ken, it was just such a privilege to have you here. 1325 01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:12,920 Thank you so much for coming on the for having me. 1326 01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,370 Yeah. And and Jamie, of course, my 1327 01:12:15,370 --> 01:12:16,840 sidekick. Always a pleasure to be here. 1328 01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,480 What a great great conversation about leadership. 1329 01:12:19,480 --> 01:12:20,880 Until next time.