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Welcome to a podcast 
 about 
leadership. 

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I'm Jonathan Kirschner, and 
 
today is a very special day. 

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Today, we have Peter 
 Arthur 
Smith on the show. 

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And let me just say, everybody 
watching this knows 
 there are 

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no shortages of leadership 
voices right now. 

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You can find leadership 
 books 
everywhere. 

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You can go on LinkedIn, and 
there's leadership 
 gurus and 

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thought leaders, and everybody's
talking 
 about leadership. 

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And, you're not 
 gonna 
necessarily see Peter Arthur 
 

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Smith because he doesn't 
position himself 
 as a guru of 

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leadership. 
And that's exactly why 
 we 

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should be listening to Peter 
Arthur Smith today. 

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Peter Arthur Smith has been 
 
doing this work quietly quietly 

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in his 
 own humble way for a 
half over half a century. 

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Over a half a century, 
 out of 
the spotlight, he is a 

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practitioner. 
He is a scholar. 

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You would you would say student.
I'm gonna say scholar because 
 

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we know each other well enough. 
And I know that you're 
 a 

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scholar of leadership, and I've 
learned so much 
 personally 

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from you. 
Peter's one of the sharpest 
 

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thinkers I've encountered about 
what leadership actually is. 

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Peter was in the British Army 
 
at the sixteen years old? 

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I started at sixteen in 
 an 
army technical college. 

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That's incredible. 
So starting at 
 sixteen years 

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old, Peter started at at at 
 a 
technical college in the British

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Army, was in the 
 royal corpse 
of signals Right. 

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And ran communication troops 
 
in the world's hotspots. 

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During the height of the Cold 
 
War, was in Belize, Aden, 

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Cyprus, Northern Ireland. 
How many countries have 
 you 

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you've been in? 
Well, not in the British Army, 

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but I visited nearly 
 ninety 
countries. 

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Nearly ninety countries. 
 
And seven continents. 

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And seven continents. 
So he's seen a few things. 

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Peter left the army as a captain
and walked straight into a 
 

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role as the leader, the human 
resources manager 
 at a UK cash

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register company. 
So that company, there was a 

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period of time when 
 cash 
registers as a business, I'm 

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sure, was booming. 
You 
 probably came in at the 

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peak. 
I came in at the peak because 
 

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Britain was going decimal. 
So all trans transgenitors had 

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to re 
 be replaced throughout 
the country. 

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So your first role as a 
 leader
was jumping into an organization

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and essentially 
 going through 
a transformation, like, from the

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start? 
Well, it it had reached 
 

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somewhat of a peak by the time I
joined it. 

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Yeah. 
That's incredible. 

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I definitely wanna hear more 
 
about that as we progress. 

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Then went into consulting Yep. 
Spending two decades 
 at 

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Mercury Irval, a Nordic cons but
now global, 
 obviously, 

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consultancy. 
And and in nineteen ninety four,

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founded Leadership Solutions 
 
based in Manhattan, where he has

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consulted with 
 leaders, 
leadership teams, and 

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organizations. 
And, along the way, he's you've 

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engaged in politics. 
You were city councilman 
 in 

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Lancashire. 
Yep. 

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Okay. 
And and and in your free 
 time,

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you like to write. 
And in addition to 
 articles, 

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you have a book, Smart 
Decisions, and 
 a forthcoming 

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book, which is really what 
 has
brought us together, and that 

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I'm I'm 
 quite excited about. 
And so we have a forthcoming 
 

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book on leadership, and that's 
really gonna be a lot 
 of what 

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we we talk about today. 
Right. 

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So, Peter, let's let's 
 dive 
right in. 

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I remember when we met, 
 about 
three years ago, and we met in 

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the context that you 
 framed up
so beautifully in an email. 

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You said, we have a 
 leadership
crisis. 

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And I said, well, yeah, duh. 
 
We have a leadership crisis. 

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But you said, no. 
No. 

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We have to do 
 something about 
it, and I wanna get on 
 a call 

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with you. 
And he's okay. 

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This is this is either 
 going 
to be, like, super bizarre and 

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random. 
And I probably shouldn't 
 take 

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this call, but let me let me 
 
just take the risk. 

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Let me roll the dice here. 
 
I've read the article attached. 

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It was pretty thoughtful. 
And and here we are today, three

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years later in an 
 incredible 
relationship. 

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And, again, I wanna reiterate, 

I've learned so much, not just 

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intellectually, but actually in 
the applied 
 world of 

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leadership from you, Peter. 
And so it's a it's a really, 

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really huge privilege 
 to have 
you on the on the podcast today.

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You shared with me 
 your bio 
early on, and something that 
 

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really struck me. 
There was a line in 
 the bio 

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that said, while I didn't 
 
pursue leadership, it pursued me

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through 
 life's journey. 
And I wanna ask you, when did 

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you first 
 notice it pursuing 
you? 

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Right. 
Well, first of all, I first 

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noticed being a leader, although
I didn't really 
 understand it 

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then, when I was in the cub 
scouts. 

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In the cub scouts? 
Yep. 

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As a senior sixer. 
Okay. 

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So I was the senior 
 cub scout 
of that particular, and then I 


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went into the boy scouts Which 
was the next stage, and 
 then I

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became the troop leader, out of 
that. 

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And then, in fact, when I 
 went
into the Army Technical College,

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there was also 
 a senior scout 
troop there, and I became the 

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troop 
 leader of that as well. 
So although I didn't really 
 

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understand what leadership was 
about and didn't 
 even think 

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about it, I just kept finding 
myself 
 in leadership 

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positions. 
And then, of course, when I was 

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at high school, I don't know 
whether 
 you have that here, 

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but we have we we would 
 have 
prefects Who were a few handful 

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of people who 
 were to be 
regarded as leaders in the high 

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school. 
So I was a prefect there. 

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Then when I went to the 
 Army 
Technical College, I became a 

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sergeant leader 
 in the 
technical college. 

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And then when I then I went 
 on
to officer school and then 

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became a leader there. 
And so it seems to have 
 

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pursued me wherever I went, but 
I've never really 
 gone out of 

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my way to be a leader or expect 
 myself to be a leader. 

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Well, I mean, clearly a 
 
pattern emerged. 

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Right? 
Right. 

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You you whatever 
 context you 
go into, whether it's the Cub 

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Scouts or 
 the Boy Scouts or 
the Army or in in the in the 
 

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consulting firm Right. 
Somehow, you find a way. 

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You gravitate towards. 
 
You become a leader. 

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What compelled you 
 to take 
leadership positions in those 
 

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various contexts? 
Other than when I, later on in 

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the, becoming an 
 officer and 
so forth, that's when I really 

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started 
 to become to 
understand what leadership was. 

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Before that, I just 
 did it 
whatever it was. 

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I've just played the role. 
But then by the time I 
 became 

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a an officer and really through 
 education and so forth, really 

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began to understand 
 what 
leadership is. 

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Although the reality 
 is that 
since that, my my mind has come 

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 much clearer about, in my view,
what leadership is. 

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And I think I've shared with you
that 
 I see five elements of 

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leadership. 
One is vision To to to be a 

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visionary. 
The second is to be a 
 person 

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of integrity. 
The third thing is to be 
 a to 

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have courage. 
Yes. 

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The the fourth thing is 
 to 
have humility, and the final 

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thing 
 is to have wisdom. 
I don't know whether I portray 


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any of those things terribly 
well. 

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But Well, certainly 
 humility 
by saying that. 

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But, you know, those are things 
 that I admire in people who I 

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regard as being good leaders. 
They have those five qualities 


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to a greater or lesser extent 
because I don't think there's 
 

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many of us who have all of those
absolute 
 qualities, 

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unfortunately. 
So that's my take on leadership 

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 and where I've arrived at at 
this moment in time. 

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I I love that, Peter. 
What did you learn about 
 

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leadership, both, like, the 
positive, but also, 
 like, what

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not to do, as a function of your

 experience in the art? 

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Well, you know, the the the one 
of the 
 things that key things 

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that was important to that I 
learned 
 about being a leader 

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is that you take care of 
yourself last. 

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You take care of 
 your people 
first. 

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You take care of them and make 

sure that their what their needs

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and so forth are met. 
And then in other words, if it 

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came time to to 
 sit down and 
have food and so forth, you make

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sure 
 that your people are fed.
And then at the end, okay, maybe

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it's time 
 for you to be fed. 
You're the last in the line. 

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So that that was one thing. 
Another thing that I learned 
 

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is that real good leaders don't 
lead from the front. 

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Most people have this 
 idea 
that to be a leader, you have to

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be out front. 
And I learned, from various 

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instances 
 that, in fact, 
that's not a good 
 role for 

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leaders. 
One thing I tell people 
 is 

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that in bringing into Americana 
is that Gettysburg, 
 which was 

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that very vital civil war, 
 the
opposing sides, the thing they 

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focused 
 on was the leaders. 
If they could kill 
 all the 

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leaders, then they would have 
 
control over the situation. 

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And that's what the 
 snipers 
concentrated on. 

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They cons the leaders at that 
 
time felt they had to be at the 

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front, and the snipers would 
 
kill all the leaders off. 

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Oh, wow. 
And that way, then they they 
 

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would destroy the enemy. 
The idea is if you 
 do get to 

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the front, you'll get shot. 
And therefore, you're not gonna 

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 be an effective leader anymore.
Right. 

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So Right. 
Leaders have to think 
 ahead 

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and be looking ahead, but not 
necessarily acting 
 ahead and 

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being out front. 
Wow. 

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When you think about the things 
that about leadership 
 that 

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don't work, you know, was there 
anything in the army 
 in in 

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your army experiences that you 
saw in terms of, like, 

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ineffective leadership 
 or bad 
leadership that that that 

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informed 
 how you decided to 
Right. 

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Well, to another thing 
 is I I 
found that, be careful of the 

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adage 
 that you have to set an 
example because none 
 of us are

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perfect. 
And if we try just too 
 hard to

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set ourselves as an example, 
then we're we're gonna 

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eventually be denigrated by 
 
the people who we're leading. 

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So we we have to be 
 sensible 
about what we what we, the 

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example that we provide, and and
perhaps, it's not a 
 good idea 

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to be charismatic. 
I mean, one of the things I was 

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 reading about recently is that 
how during the last century, 
 

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we've changed our focus from 
character leadership 
 to 

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personality leadership. 
You know, where, and places like

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Harvard, 
 they very much focus 
on personality leadership 
 

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where you have to be the 
extrovert, the person who's 
 

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the life and soul of the party. 
Lots of charisma. 

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00:13:13,225 --> 00:13:16,125
Right. 
All 
 the charisma and so forth.

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00:13:16,125 --> 00:13:20,672
And, certain books I've 
 read 
show how that model doesn't 

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00:13:20,672 --> 00:13:24,693
really work. 
And from my point of view, 
 

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00:13:24,701 --> 00:13:30,005
that model has encouraged, us to
pursue a 
 degree of narcissism.

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00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:34,766
I I believe that we have 
 too 
many narcissists leading both in

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00:13:34,766 --> 00:13:39,727
in in 
 the world and so forth, 
and that is creating a crisis 
 

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00:13:39,735 --> 00:13:45,067
in my view in because we have 
these personality 
 types who, 

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00:13:45,067 --> 00:13:48,773
are there, and they don't really
give 
 a damn about the people 

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that they're supposed to be 
leading. 

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00:13:50,205 --> 00:13:52,205
They only care about themselves.
Yeah. 

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00:13:52,205 --> 00:13:54,365
It's almost like 
 a little bit 
of a trap. 

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Like, the follower 
 feels 
compelled by the charisma, the 

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00:13:59,834 --> 00:14:06,578
energy, you know, the sort of, 
implicit 
 hope, in in all of 

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00:14:06,578 --> 00:14:09,890
that, in all of those 
 positive
messaging. 

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00:14:10,075 --> 00:14:16,735
But, but in terms of the 
 
actuals, the substance, they can

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00:14:16,735 --> 00:14:19,435
sometimes or 
 oftentimes even 
be disappointed. 

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00:14:19,435 --> 00:14:20,875
Right? 
So right. 

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00:14:20,875 --> 00:14:25,622
So my my whole 
 thesis is more 
about involving your people and 

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00:14:25,622 --> 00:14:29,650
 getting them on board as much 
as possible so you can 
 

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00:14:29,658 --> 00:14:33,910
encourage them to take the lead 
rather than you take the lead, 

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00:14:33,910 --> 00:14:36,150
and then you become 
 the 
orchestrator. 

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00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:40,010
I mean, I I tell people another 
 example I had was when we were 

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00:14:40,010 --> 00:14:44,629
on patrol, we were I was in 
 in
the North Yorkshire Moors, and 

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00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:51,325
we were 
 on patrol on a on a 
sort of a a mock exercise. 

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00:14:51,325 --> 00:14:55,216
In fact, they were American 
 
green berets out there, and we 

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00:14:55,216 --> 00:14:57,990
had to find our way 
 to capture
them if we could. 

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00:14:57,990 --> 00:14:59,110
Okay. 
Okay. 

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00:14:59,110 --> 00:15:03,604
So I and I had a 
 troop of 
soldiers that we were out during

220
00:15:03,604 --> 00:15:10,430
the night, and trying to look 
for 
 these green berets. 

221
00:15:10,505 --> 00:15:14,665
And, suddenly, at some point, 
 
it was a moonlit light. 

222
00:15:14,665 --> 00:15:18,825
And at some point, I was aware 

that all of my troops were 

223
00:15:18,825 --> 00:15:22,465
behind me, and I was 
 the 
person out front. 

224
00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:25,590
And there they were looking 
 at
what looked like to be the 

225
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:30,550
specter of a soldier up on the 

hillside looking down on us. 

226
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:36,013
They were all 
 behind me, you 
know, waiting for me to take the

227
00:15:36,013 --> 00:15:38,905
lead. 
Whereas, in fact, 
 what I in 

228
00:15:38,905 --> 00:15:42,651
fact did, I encouraged them 
 
all to get down, and I 

229
00:15:42,651 --> 00:15:45,465
encouraged them to 
 get around 
me and say, okay. 

230
00:15:45,465 --> 00:15:50,921
Let's see what we can 
 do to do
to take this to deal with this 

231
00:15:50,921 --> 00:15:52,990
situation. 
So we agreed that they would 
 

232
00:15:52,998 --> 00:15:56,030
break up into contingents, and 
one would go one way, one would 

233
00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:59,844
group would go the 
 other way 
and so forth rather than you 

234
00:15:59,844 --> 00:16:02,558
know? 
And we would stay where 
 we 

235
00:16:02,558 --> 00:16:05,985
were to keep that person, 
whoever it was, focused. 

236
00:16:05,985 --> 00:16:09,585
We ultimately 
 found out, in 
fact, it wasn't a person at all.

237
00:16:09,585 --> 00:16:11,505
It happened to be a tree. 
Yeah. 

238
00:16:11,505 --> 00:16:15,665
That's interesting. 
That's fast. 

239
00:16:15,665 --> 00:16:19,535
That but if I if I'm 
 reading 
the story right, it it sounds 

240
00:16:19,535 --> 00:16:26,866
like, the way in phase 
 one of 
this pursuit, you were sort of 

241
00:16:26,866 --> 00:16:29,530
at the head, 
 and they were 
behind you. 

242
00:16:29,530 --> 00:16:33,066
Right. 
But in phase two, 
 you said, 

243
00:16:33,066 --> 00:16:36,775
actually, I need you all to 
disperse 
 in a coordinated way.

244
00:16:36,775 --> 00:16:39,655
I'm your orchestrator. 
Right. 

245
00:16:39,655 --> 00:16:43,235
I'm not the at in the lead. 
Right. 

246
00:16:43,235 --> 00:16:45,655
I'm sort of I think you 
 
mentioned, like, in the middle. 

247
00:16:45,655 --> 00:16:48,215
I'm the catalyst here. 
The catalyst in the 
 middle is 

248
00:16:48,215 --> 00:16:50,057
orchestrating. 
To to orchestrate. 

249
00:16:50,057 --> 00:16:52,402
Okay. 
That you one group goes one way 

250
00:16:52,402 --> 00:16:56,398
 and one group goes the other 
way, and we'll keep the 
 the 

251
00:16:56,398 --> 00:17:01,470
enemy focused on us while you go
and 
 maybe, you know, capture 

252
00:17:01,470 --> 00:17:04,589
him maybe. 
But, of course, it happened 
 to

253
00:17:04,589 --> 00:17:06,724
be a tree instead. 
It happened to be 
 a tree 

254
00:17:06,724 --> 00:17:07,065
instead. 
No. 

255
00:17:07,065 --> 00:17:13,175
So, that's a great story. 
Well, I I would 
 love to, you 

256
00:17:13,175 --> 00:17:18,660
know, bring it into the context 
 of, say, organizational. 

257
00:17:18,660 --> 00:17:20,900
Let's let's go into 
 civilian 
Right. 

258
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:23,924
Context for a moment. 
You 
 know, after the army 

259
00:17:23,924 --> 00:17:27,228
Right. 
You you moved into 
 the role of

260
00:17:27,228 --> 00:17:33,458
head of of human resources for 

the cash register company called

261
00:17:33,458 --> 00:17:35,965
a grow gross 
 cash Gross cash 
register. 

262
00:17:35,965 --> 00:17:37,825
Gross cash register in 
 in 
Brighton. 

263
00:17:37,825 --> 00:17:38,445
Right. 
Yeah. 

264
00:17:38,445 --> 00:17:38,973
Brighton. 
Yes. 

265
00:17:38,973 --> 00:17:40,125
Brighton in England. 
Yes. 

266
00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:44,091
And and it was just you know, 
times were booming for 
 cash 

267
00:17:44,091 --> 00:17:46,126
register machines. 
Because everybody had to throw 

268
00:17:46,126 --> 00:17:48,430
away 
 their old ones and get a 
decimal one. 

269
00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:52,990
And get a decimal one. 
So you saw a lot of adaptation, 

270
00:17:52,990 --> 00:17:58,494
and then you presumably saw I 
mean, did you see the 
 decline 

271
00:17:58,494 --> 00:18:00,510
of cash registers? 
People didn't need the 
 cash 

272
00:18:00,510 --> 00:18:01,905
register anymore. 
They didn't need it anymore. 

273
00:18:01,905 --> 00:18:05,625
And this company had about two 

and a half thousand people. 

274
00:18:06,545 --> 00:18:09,985
Of course, there was 
 no market
for them. 

275
00:18:09,985 --> 00:18:14,373
So they they started innovating 
 the next generation of cash 

276
00:18:14,373 --> 00:18:17,660
registers that time, 
 more 
digital computerized. 

277
00:18:17,660 --> 00:18:21,720
But they didn't need all 
 of 
these these people, so they they

278
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,754
decided 
 they had to downsize. 
So they had to downsize. 

279
00:18:24,754 --> 00:18:27,464
Yeah. 
And and and you being 
 the head

280
00:18:27,464 --> 00:18:35,020
of HR In HR, with my small team 
 that I had, we had to, preside 

281
00:18:35,020 --> 00:18:37,935
over all of these 
 people 
leaving the company. 

282
00:18:37,935 --> 00:18:41,095
And many of them had been 
 in 
the company a long time. 

283
00:18:41,295 --> 00:18:45,478
They were very talented 
 many 
of them very talented, very 

284
00:18:45,478 --> 00:18:49,605
loyal people and so forth. 
And, I can assure you 
 there 

285
00:18:49,605 --> 00:18:52,920
were a lot of tears. 
There were a lot of tears as we 

286
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,238
 saw those people going through 
and the procedure we had 
 to 

287
00:18:56,238 --> 00:18:59,954
take them through to, end up 
their their finances and 

288
00:18:59,954 --> 00:19:02,425
everything 
 so they could leave
the company. 

289
00:19:02,425 --> 00:19:09,785
And that was a that was a major 
impact on me. 

290
00:19:09,785 --> 00:19:14,555
And the the sad part is 
 that 
even here we come today, and 

291
00:19:14,555 --> 00:19:17,585
we're now 
 talking because of 
AI. 

292
00:19:17,870 --> 00:19:21,390
We're now talking about many 
 
companies are gonna be laying 

293
00:19:21,390 --> 00:19:26,669
off a lot of people. 
I mean, that Amazon have just 

294
00:19:26,669 --> 00:19:31,325
announced in 
 the last few days
they're gonna downsize by twenty

295
00:19:31,325 --> 00:19:34,428

 thousand people. 
That brings me I mean, I was 

296
00:19:34,428 --> 00:19:38,357
just dealing with 
 two thousand
people, but, and and the the 

297
00:19:38,357 --> 00:19:42,410
from 
 my point of view, the 
enormous waste 
 of doing that, 

298
00:19:42,410 --> 00:19:46,719
And I believe that we need to 
 
find another way to deal with 

299
00:19:46,719 --> 00:19:48,730
it. 
And to me, when you 
 downsize 

300
00:19:48,730 --> 00:19:51,690
by that, to me, that's a 
leadership failure. 

301
00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:54,890
That's a failure of leadership 

that you have to downsize by 

302
00:19:54,890 --> 00:20:00,299
twenty thousand people 
 instead
of of somebody like Amazon 

303
00:20:00,299 --> 00:20:04,405
knowing full well that 
 they 
were gonna come to a point where

304
00:20:04,405 --> 00:20:07,485
they were gonna put 
 robots in 
and so forth to take the place 

305
00:20:07,485 --> 00:20:10,630
of people. 
In my opinion, they 
 could have

306
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:15,724
ten, five years ago started 
 
looking at other business and or

307
00:20:15,724 --> 00:20:18,710
looking exploring other 
 
business entities that would 

308
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:22,397
need the talents of some 
 of 
these people that they had, and 

309
00:20:22,397 --> 00:20:25,980
they could start growing 
 other
businesses so that those people 

310
00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:28,885
didn't then 
 have to be laid 
off. 

311
00:20:29,325 --> 00:20:33,645
Basically. 
And I believe this 
 is where we

312
00:20:33,645 --> 00:20:38,112
we this shows that we have a 
tendency 
 to we get so focused 

313
00:20:38,112 --> 00:20:43,062
on today and making money today.
We're not looking ahead 
 to 

314
00:20:43,062 --> 00:20:48,137
say, well, you know, how are we 
going to, make take advantage of

315
00:20:48,137 --> 00:20:52,809
all 
 this talent that we have 
at our disposal instead of just 

316
00:20:52,809 --> 00:20:55,185
 throwing them out under the 
bus. 

317
00:20:55,305 --> 00:21:00,745
It's it's a it's a 
 it's a real
tricky trap. 

318
00:21:00,745 --> 00:21:02,025
Right? 
Right. 

319
00:21:02,025 --> 00:21:10,580
Real successful, 
 and and that 
success really, like, encourages

320
00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:13,820
short term thinking 
 in in some
ways. 

321
00:21:13,820 --> 00:21:14,620
Right? 
Yeah. 

322
00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:16,620
In some ways, by 
 necessity. 
Right? 

323
00:21:16,620 --> 00:21:19,640
Like, you've gotta 
 fulfill the
demand, and and you have 
 to 

324
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,425
focus on, like, how do we how do
we 
 fill all these orders? 

325
00:21:22,425 --> 00:21:23,705
Like, we need to 
 hire more 
people. 

326
00:21:23,705 --> 00:21:28,505
We need to and and so you get 
 
very focused on the immediate, 

327
00:21:28,505 --> 00:21:32,985
but you do that too much, and 
and it become it gets 
 it's at 

328
00:21:32,985 --> 00:21:37,498
the expense of, like, your 
strategic thinking, your longer 

329
00:21:37,498 --> 00:21:40,670
term thinking, and 
 your 
creative thinking Right. 

330
00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:43,950
Presumably. 
And and making time to be 

331
00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:47,030
thinking 
 about tomorrow as 
well as today. 

332
00:21:47,310 --> 00:21:52,865
Management too often focuses on 
today, as you said. 

333
00:21:52,865 --> 00:21:54,720
Yeah. 
Taking care of all these 
 

334
00:21:54,728 --> 00:21:57,665
things that we have to do, get 
the products out of 
 the door, 

335
00:21:57,665 --> 00:22:00,322
and so forth. 
That's what management 
 tends 

336
00:22:00,322 --> 00:22:03,450
to do. 
But leaders are thinking about 


337
00:22:03,458 --> 00:22:07,626
tomorrow as well as today, and 
that's why they're leaders 
 as 

338
00:22:07,626 --> 00:22:10,530
opposed to just managers. 
So when you think about, you 
 

339
00:22:10,538 --> 00:22:15,668
know, when you go back to, the 
the days at at at 
 Grosscast 

340
00:22:15,668 --> 00:22:19,915
Register Right. 
You know, obviously, there 
 was

341
00:22:19,915 --> 00:22:23,765
a huge disruption. 
It it created a 
 lot of, you 

342
00:22:23,765 --> 00:22:27,225
know, layoffs and and and 
 
reduction in force Yeah. 

343
00:22:27,225 --> 00:22:30,665
Which is which is, no matter 
 
how you look at it Right. 

344
00:22:30,665 --> 00:22:32,490
An awful experience. 
Yeah. 

345
00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:35,530
You know, what was your 
 
takeaway from that? 

346
00:22:35,530 --> 00:22:39,050
Like, what did you learn 
 from 
that experience, particularly 

347
00:22:39,050 --> 00:22:44,224
around, you 
 know, leadership 
or or how organizations adapt 
 

348
00:22:44,232 --> 00:22:47,305
or don't adapt? 
You know, curious what 
 what 

349
00:22:47,305 --> 00:22:52,533
your takeaways are. 
I I I was just I mean, I I I did

350
00:22:52,533 --> 00:22:57,353
at that time 
 and still do 
think a lot about that whole 

351
00:22:57,353 --> 00:23:00,035
issue. 
And that's where one of the 
 

352
00:23:00,043 --> 00:23:04,480
drivers that's got me to pursue 
the leadership 
 side of things,

353
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,040
you know, to pursue thinking 
about 
 tomorrow as well as just

354
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,220
thinking about today. 
And that means then building 
 

355
00:23:13,228 --> 00:23:17,316
up the right talent around you 
that it's not just you 
 

356
00:23:17,324 --> 00:23:21,287
thinking about tomorrow, but you
build a leadership team 
 is 

357
00:23:21,287 --> 00:23:25,171
also thinking about tomorrow. 
And, you know, I I know 
 

358
00:23:25,179 --> 00:23:28,613
something that we've talked 
about is and I'm writing about 


359
00:23:28,621 --> 00:23:32,470
in the book is bringing up the 
whole idea of periscope time. 

360
00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:36,586
Periscope time is 
 something 
that I, developed an idea about 

361
00:23:36,586 --> 00:23:41,350
 a a long time ago, and I I 
pursue periscope 
 time myself, 

362
00:23:41,350 --> 00:23:46,643
okay, Where I take time out 
 on
a regular basis to look above 

363
00:23:46,643 --> 00:23:50,071
what's going on 
 today and 
looking out on tomorrow and say,

364
00:23:50,071 --> 00:23:53,837

 where am I going, and how am I
positioned to 
 where I'm going 

365
00:23:53,837 --> 00:23:57,850
and so forth. 
And I think that teams, 

366
00:23:57,850 --> 00:24:02,798
leadership teams should 
 be if 
they're a start up, maybe they 

367
00:24:02,798 --> 00:24:06,286
should be meeting 
 once a week 
or every two weeks thinking 

368
00:24:06,286 --> 00:24:10,417
about 
 where are we today, but 
where what things look 
 like 

369
00:24:10,417 --> 00:24:14,289
ahead the next month. 
But then when you get 
 to a a 

370
00:24:14,289 --> 00:24:17,105
growth company, maybe you're 
doing 
 that once every month. 

371
00:24:17,105 --> 00:24:19,985
You get the leadership team 
 
and thinking about where are we 

372
00:24:19,985 --> 00:24:23,650
today, what's it look like 
 for
the our opportunities for 

373
00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:25,490
tomorrow, and 
 positioning 
ourselves. 

374
00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:28,897
If you become a really 
 big 
company, well, maybe you do 

375
00:24:28,897 --> 00:24:32,234
something 
 once a quarter. 
You know, you take a day out 
 

376
00:24:32,242 --> 00:24:35,346
with your leadership team, and 
you think, well, 
 where are we 

377
00:24:35,346 --> 00:24:37,125
today? 
And let's talk about where 
 

378
00:24:37,133 --> 00:24:38,845
we're going to be tomorrow. 
Yeah. 

379
00:24:38,845 --> 00:24:41,791
I love it. 
It it and it periscope just 
 

380
00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,125
like, a submarine, you know, 
that's that's underwater, 
 

381
00:24:45,133 --> 00:24:47,590
submersed, and you're so 
focused. 

382
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:51,310
I mean, you do one thing wrong. 
It could compromise the whole 

383
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:54,870
mission or or or everybody's 
 
lives on the submarine. 

384
00:24:54,870 --> 00:25:00,431
Right. 
So so it it it necessitates a 

385
00:25:00,431 --> 00:25:05,575
very operational tactical, 
 way
mindset and way of of of 

386
00:25:05,575 --> 00:25:07,215
behaving. 
Right. 

387
00:25:07,215 --> 00:25:11,610
But if you really 
 want the 
comprehensive sort of 

388
00:25:11,610 --> 00:25:14,410
perspective, you 
 gotta put the
Periscope up. 

389
00:25:14,410 --> 00:25:15,370
Right? 
Right. 

390
00:25:15,370 --> 00:25:21,785
And and so I just 
 love that 
metaphor used in the context of 

391
00:25:21,785 --> 00:25:24,010
leadership 
 because it's really
no different. 

392
00:25:24,010 --> 00:25:27,785
Like, we get so consumed 
 with 
our day to day. 

393
00:25:27,785 --> 00:25:32,345
There's so much pressure 
 on 
leaders. 

394
00:25:32,345 --> 00:25:35,590
Right? 
And and that pressure just 
 

395
00:25:35,598 --> 00:25:40,831
increases as a function of all 
the change and and 
 uncertainty

396
00:25:40,831 --> 00:25:47,250
in the world. 
And so to be able to poke your 

397
00:25:47,250 --> 00:25:52,130
head up as 
 an individual or as
a as a team unit Yeah. 

398
00:25:52,130 --> 00:25:57,690
As a team unit, very valuable. 
I think something I've learned 


399
00:25:57,698 --> 00:26:02,251
from you is that you don't just,
like, do it when 
 you need to 

400
00:26:02,251 --> 00:26:05,267
do it. 
The there's a discipline to 
 

401
00:26:05,275 --> 00:26:06,653
Periscope time. 
Right. 

402
00:26:06,653 --> 00:26:07,475
Right? 
Right. 

403
00:26:07,475 --> 00:26:09,890
And you gotta commit. 
You gotta commit. 

404
00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:11,890
Whether it's weekly, 
 monthly 
Right. 

405
00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:15,090
Quarterly, you've gotta 
 commit
to Periscope time. 

406
00:26:15,090 --> 00:26:17,936
Right. 
And if you're gonna 
 do 

407
00:26:17,936 --> 00:26:21,130
Periscope time, the other thing 
is that, and certainly if you're

408
00:26:21,130 --> 00:26:26,023

 gonna do it, say, monthly or 
is I I advocate 
 that you 

409
00:26:26,023 --> 00:26:29,075
encourage your team to take the 
weekend off. 

410
00:26:29,075 --> 00:26:32,515
Do they end they finish early 
 
on a Friday because they're 

411
00:26:32,515 --> 00:26:37,483
gonna have periscope 
 time on 
Monday, and then they they use 


412
00:26:37,491 --> 00:26:41,534
Friday to discharge and relax 
and relax with 
 their family 

413
00:26:41,534 --> 00:26:44,410
over the weekend. 
So by the time they 
 come to 

414
00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:48,350
Monday, they're really fresh and

 ready to think about tomorrow.

415
00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:50,685
So a four day week. 
Yeah. 

416
00:26:50,685 --> 00:26:54,205
So take so take Friday, like, 
 
use that on us to prepare. 

417
00:26:54,205 --> 00:26:56,485
And do this once 
 a month. 
You know? 

418
00:26:56,765 --> 00:27:01,391
So but by the time 
 you come to
Monday, your mind is much more 

419
00:27:01,391 --> 00:27:04,855
clear 
 and ready to think about
tomorrow because you know, and 


420
00:27:04,863 --> 00:27:08,942
and and the company should, in 
my opinion, should have a 
 

421
00:27:08,950 --> 00:27:12,410
bucket so that as you're going 
through the month, if anybody 

422
00:27:12,410 --> 00:27:14,700
thinks of something 
 that 
should be brought up in 

423
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:18,232
Periscope Time, they're able to 
 put it into the bucket. 

424
00:27:18,232 --> 00:27:20,622
Okay? 
So by the time the team comes 
 

425
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:23,675
together on that Monday, they 
can look at 
 what's in the 

426
00:27:23,675 --> 00:27:26,273
bucket, and then they can have a

 discussion about which of 

427
00:27:26,273 --> 00:27:30,272
these things do we really need 
to 
 focus on today to take our 

428
00:27:30,272 --> 00:27:33,143
comp our unit forward. 
I love that. 

429
00:27:33,143 --> 00:27:34,525
A Periscope 
 bucket. 
Yeah. 

430
00:27:34,525 --> 00:27:35,870
Right? 
Because because ideas 
 happen 

431
00:27:35,870 --> 00:27:38,358
all the time Right. 
In you know, through the 
 the 

432
00:27:38,358 --> 00:27:40,926
the flow of work. 
And so to be able to just time 


433
00:27:40,934 --> 00:27:43,646
to think about things very 
often, but you can say this 
 is

434
00:27:43,646 --> 00:27:45,968
something very important. 
Let's put that 
 this in the 

435
00:27:45,968 --> 00:27:47,030
bucket. 
I like it. 

436
00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:51,765
So so, Peter, in 
 twenty twenty
three, you wrote an article 
 

437
00:27:51,773 --> 00:27:54,845
called the world leadership 
crisis Right. 

438
00:27:54,845 --> 00:28:00,325
Which was, really a powerful 
piece. 

439
00:28:00,365 --> 00:28:03,956
And, you know, you 
 talked 
about, you know, various 

440
00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:09,892
dynamics 
 that are converging 
and essentially leading 
 to a 

441
00:28:09,892 --> 00:28:15,914
leadership crisis, you know, not
just 
 in the US or the UK, but 

442
00:28:15,914 --> 00:28:19,965
you're saying it almost like 
pervasively around the world. 

443
00:28:19,965 --> 00:28:23,165
Right. 
Help us understand that. 

444
00:28:23,165 --> 00:28:27,143
Like, on if you could just 
 
unpack a little bit of, you 

445
00:28:27,143 --> 00:28:31,840
know, what you're seeing 
 and 
why are you calling it or 

446
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,675
thinking about 
 it as a crisis?
I'm thinking about it as a 
 

447
00:28:35,683 --> 00:28:39,916
crisis because there are so many
forces building up and 
 bearing

448
00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:44,095
in mind there are some enormous 
narcissists Yes. 

449
00:28:44,095 --> 00:28:47,830
Leading us. 
These are people who 
 seem to 

450
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:56,330
be intent on just, yeah, just 
asserting their egos in such 
 a

451
00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:59,380
way that it doesn't really 
matter to them about what's 

452
00:28:59,380 --> 00:29:01,820
happening 
 on in the rest of 
the world. 

453
00:29:02,660 --> 00:29:07,140
You know? 
And, I I'm concerned that we're 

454
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:12,060
allowing ourselves 
 to go along
with it, you know, rather than, 

455
00:29:12,735 --> 00:29:17,559
and I I start saying 
 to 
myself, well, we've we've got to

456
00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:21,335
change 
 the dynamic because we 
can't have narcissists. 

457
00:29:21,535 --> 00:29:25,787
As as all as much as they're 
 
compelled to be leaders, we've 

458
00:29:25,787 --> 00:29:30,040
got to somehow get away 
 from 
that that type of character. 

459
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,400
Otherwise, we're we're gonna be 
 perpetually in in difficulty, 

460
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,421
from my point of view. 
And I just feel that 
 even from

461
00:29:39,421 --> 00:29:43,151
that time, two thousand and 
twenty three, I think things are

462
00:29:43,151 --> 00:29:47,073
coming to 
 even more to a 
boiling point than they were at 

463
00:29:47,073 --> 00:29:50,535
 that particular time. 
How when when you I mean, 

464
00:29:50,535 --> 00:29:55,170
because you've been at this for 
over a half a century. 

465
00:29:55,170 --> 00:29:57,420
Okay? 
That's since longer 
 than I've 

466
00:29:57,420 --> 00:30:00,450
been living. 
That you've been 
 studying 

467
00:30:00,450 --> 00:30:03,354
leadership, writing about 
leadership, consulting to 

468
00:30:03,354 --> 00:30:05,634
organizations 
 about 
leadership, and then, of course,

469
00:30:05,634 --> 00:30:09,605
being a leader. 
Or trying to be Or trying to be.

470
00:30:09,605 --> 00:30:15,005
I I think trying to 
 be is is 
is is is the best way to 

471
00:30:15,005 --> 00:30:16,885
describe 
 it, like, always. 
You know? 

472
00:30:16,885 --> 00:30:18,565
Yeah. 
Well 
 Because it's that part. 

473
00:30:18,565 --> 00:30:21,382
Never stop learning. 
Mean Leaders never stop 
 

474
00:30:21,390 --> 00:30:24,164
constant development. 
Have leaders always 
 been like 

475
00:30:24,164 --> 00:30:26,390
this? 
Like, do you describe, like, 
 

476
00:30:26,398 --> 00:30:31,470
an an increase in, like, 
narcissistic leadership today? 

477
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:36,387
You know, when when you 
 roll 
it back fifty years, you know, 

478
00:30:36,387 --> 00:30:39,635
is is that the are 
 those the 
dynamics you saw then? 

479
00:30:39,635 --> 00:30:42,195
And I I didn't see 
 it in that 
way then. 

480
00:30:42,195 --> 00:30:46,149
I mean, I was such a so naive 
when he 
 came to the leadership

481
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:49,114
of that time. 
So it's it's just been 
 a it's 

482
00:30:49,114 --> 00:30:52,000
been a growth. 
It's been something that's 
 

483
00:30:52,008 --> 00:30:56,661
grown along with me. 
I mean and bearing in 
 mind 

484
00:30:56,661 --> 00:31:00,811
that, you know, whenever I I do 
get caught up with 
 people 

485
00:31:00,811 --> 00:31:04,255
talking about leadership, it 
distresses to them very 
 people

486
00:31:04,255 --> 00:31:08,330
that I meet very much that they 
don't see the leadership 
 in 

487
00:31:08,330 --> 00:31:12,793
the world that they want. 
It and that causes me 
 a a 

488
00:31:12,793 --> 00:31:20,485
great deal of pain that, you 
know, that so many people 
 feel

489
00:31:20,485 --> 00:31:25,320
that they don't have haven't had
the experience 
 of working with

490
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,663
a good leader. 
Good leaders, unfortunately, 
 

491
00:31:28,671 --> 00:31:31,815
are in a minority. 
Yes. 

492
00:31:31,855 --> 00:31:35,775
Yes. 
And a lot of people don't 
 have

493
00:31:35,775 --> 00:31:39,471
a good work experience. 
They don't have a good life 
 

494
00:31:39,479 --> 00:31:42,484
experience or whatever because 
they're very distressed about 

495
00:31:42,484 --> 00:31:46,140
the 
 leaders around them or so 
called leaders. 

496
00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:49,015
Yeah. 
It's very scary to 
 think about

497
00:31:49,015 --> 00:31:52,690
that, especially like, it's 
scary in general because 
 you 

498
00:31:52,690 --> 00:31:58,475
need to have good leaders for 
for any successful system. 

499
00:31:58,475 --> 00:32:02,195
Right? 
Whether it's an organization, a 

500
00:32:02,715 --> 00:32:07,835
nonprofit, a startup Right. 
A government, a a 
 

501
00:32:07,843 --> 00:32:08,875
civilization. 
Right. 

502
00:32:08,875 --> 00:32:12,175
And you you need good 
 
leadership, right, for for to to

503
00:32:12,175 --> 00:32:12,900
thrive. 
Right. 

504
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:16,260
But but I especially right now, 
 you know, when we think about, 

505
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:24,340
you know, the advent of of 
agentic AI and and robots and 

506
00:32:24,340 --> 00:32:30,792
where 
 things could all go if 
we don't have 
 great 

507
00:32:30,792 --> 00:32:34,245
leadership. 
That's a it's kind of a scary 

508
00:32:34,845 --> 00:32:37,392
Well, it thought. 
If we don't have 
 good 

509
00:32:37,392 --> 00:32:43,456
leadership, then I think we I I 
 hate to think about it, but if 

510
00:32:43,456 --> 00:32:48,074
we don't have 
 good leadership,
we're gonna have enormous 
 

511
00:32:48,082 --> 00:32:52,074
problems with AI. 
I mean, it it keeps 
 coming 

512
00:32:52,074 --> 00:32:56,610
back to me how after World War 
one and where 
 things were in 

513
00:32:56,610 --> 00:33:01,835
the twenties and thirties, how 
things 
 got so I mean, they 

514
00:33:01,835 --> 00:33:05,475
went chaotic and so forth, and 
they got so discombobulated, and

515
00:33:05,475 --> 00:33:09,315
then we ended up with World War 
 two because the pressure was 

516
00:33:09,315 --> 00:33:12,163
there. 
I I just feel that if we 
 allow

517
00:33:12,163 --> 00:33:17,316
if we allow AI to take over, I 
just can't see how 
 humankind 

518
00:33:17,316 --> 00:33:20,500
is gonna accept that. 
And I'm just wondering what 
 

519
00:33:20,508 --> 00:33:23,630
sort of distress that's gonna 
create in the world, whether 
 

520
00:33:23,638 --> 00:33:28,885
there's gonna be all sorts of 
outbursts of rioting and so 
 

521
00:33:28,893 --> 00:33:31,765
forth because people are not 
gonna accept it. 

522
00:33:31,765 --> 00:33:34,150
Yeah. 
I mean, the the the certain view

523
00:33:34,150 --> 00:33:38,140
of 
 the world that a the robots
and AI is gonna come in and 

524
00:33:38,140 --> 00:33:41,749
gonna 
 take over and take care 
of everything for us, I just 

525
00:33:41,749 --> 00:33:44,541
can't see people 
 being willing
to accept that. 

526
00:33:44,541 --> 00:33:48,055
Yeah. 
And I I I believe 
 that will be

527
00:33:48,055 --> 00:33:51,722
another, crux of another 
 world
war, basically, in some form or 

528
00:33:51,722 --> 00:33:53,765
another. 
I don't know how it's gonna 
 

529
00:33:53,773 --> 00:33:57,354
evolve, but that's my concern. 
It's when when you're more of 
 

530
00:33:57,362 --> 00:34:01,791
a historian than I am, but, just
before World War one, 
 there 

531
00:34:01,791 --> 00:34:05,255
was a world fair, where they 
were you know, 
 everybody's 

532
00:34:05,255 --> 00:34:08,341
bringing, like, their 
innovations, and I think, there 

533
00:34:08,341 --> 00:34:10,054
were a lot of 
 military 
innovations. 

534
00:34:10,054 --> 00:34:11,495
It'd be like, wow. 
Look at this. 

535
00:34:11,495 --> 00:34:14,219
This is so, you know, 
 
compelling, so fascinating. 

536
00:34:14,219 --> 00:34:16,795
Why you know? 
And then, you know, just a 
 few

537
00:34:16,795 --> 00:34:20,780
years later, you know, that's 
being used to to 
 wreak 

538
00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:25,100
destruction on a scale that 
nobody ever could 
 have 

539
00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:26,980
possibly conceived. 
Right. 

540
00:34:27,995 --> 00:34:32,695
Exactly. 
And and, you know, the 
 the 

541
00:34:32,695 --> 00:34:37,380
megalomaniacs that existed at 
that time, 
 they just couldn't 

542
00:34:37,380 --> 00:34:42,853
wait to have a war, basically. 
I mean, it just took one spark 


543
00:34:42,862 --> 00:34:44,484
and and Right. 
It went. 

544
00:34:44,484 --> 00:34:46,130
Yeah. 
And and potentially, that's 
 

545
00:34:46,138 --> 00:34:48,062
what could happen now. 
I know. 

546
00:34:48,062 --> 00:34:50,810
Could be having our 
 world fair
moment right now. 

547
00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:51,878
Right. 
Where we're like, 
 wow. 

548
00:34:51,878 --> 00:34:54,518
This is so cool. 
This is amazing, powerful 
 

549
00:34:54,527 --> 00:34:55,425
technology. 
Right. 

550
00:34:55,425 --> 00:34:58,067
Yeah. 
But to what degree people are 
 

551
00:34:58,075 --> 00:35:02,573
gonna be willing to accept it, 
accept it in the 
 way that 

552
00:35:02,573 --> 00:35:05,880
certain people visualize, and 
they visualize 
 that, you know,

553
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,320
that that they envision a big 
underclass. 

554
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,574
Yes. 
We're gonna have 
 a big 

555
00:35:13,574 --> 00:35:16,318
underclass, and I don't wonder 
how long 
 that underclass is 

556
00:35:16,318 --> 00:35:18,200
gonna just sit back and accept 
it. 

557
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,725
Yes. 
I mean, Peter, at this stage in 

558
00:35:22,725 --> 00:35:29,059
your your life, you could easily
be, you know, kinda living on a 

559
00:35:29,059 --> 00:35:34,375
golf course, sipping tea, you 
know, 
 reading your favorite 

560
00:35:34,375 --> 00:35:38,090
books, playing golf, enjoying 
 
the retired life. 

561
00:35:38,090 --> 00:35:41,430
Right. 
That's not the life 
 you live 

562
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:43,790
right now. 
I mean, you do travel a 
 whole 

563
00:35:43,790 --> 00:35:44,890
lot and Yeah. 
I do. 

564
00:35:44,890 --> 00:35:46,170
And and you're 
 having a good 
time. 

565
00:35:46,170 --> 00:35:53,065
But but, there is 
 fire in your
belly, right now that is burning

566
00:35:53,065 --> 00:35:56,745

 pretty hot in terms of the 
urgency that you experience 
 

567
00:35:56,753 --> 00:36:01,065
and feel as a result of this 
crisis in leadership. 

568
00:36:01,065 --> 00:36:02,526
Right. 
I share that with you. 
 

569
00:36:02,534 --> 00:36:05,599
I think that's Right. 
You know, you and I spar a 
 

570
00:36:05,607 --> 00:36:07,530
little bit on different Right. 
Things. 

571
00:36:07,530 --> 00:36:10,440
There's there's things 
 that 
you, you know, there's premises 

572
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,870
and thesis you 
 have that that 
I disagree with and and vice 

573
00:36:13,870 --> 00:36:17,210
versa. 
We are one hundred 
 percent 

574
00:36:17,210 --> 00:36:21,985
aligned that the future is going
to be very 
 bleak if we don't 

575
00:36:21,985 --> 00:36:24,945
get this right with leadership. 
Right. 

576
00:36:24,945 --> 00:36:27,529
Yeah. 
And I'm very concerned about the

577
00:36:27,529 --> 00:36:31,104

 political leadership, in my 
opinion, is not taking enough of

578
00:36:31,104 --> 00:36:35,557
a 
 leadership role in this to 
formulate, okay, if 
 we need if

579
00:36:35,557 --> 00:36:40,090
we have AI, and it certainly has

 advantages and capabilities, 

580
00:36:40,090 --> 00:36:44,675
but let's find the right way to 
 work AI along with people that 

581
00:36:44,675 --> 00:36:50,223
I mean, we just had the pope Put
out that, you know, that he he 

582
00:36:50,223 --> 00:36:55,155
felt 
 that the way AI is, right
now is antihuman kind. 

583
00:36:55,155 --> 00:36:56,211
Antihuman. 
Yeah. 

584
00:36:56,211 --> 00:36:57,267
Interesting. 
 
Antihuman. 

585
00:36:57,267 --> 00:37:00,770
Antihuman. 
Well The way it's set right now.

586
00:37:00,770 --> 00:37:03,810
And you if you listen to some 
 
of the people from Silicon 

587
00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:10,060
Valley, they've pretty 
 well 
written people off because they 

588
00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:13,650
believe these 
 systems could be
more superior than people, so to

589
00:37:13,650 --> 00:37:15,034

 hell were the people. 
Yeah. 

590
00:37:15,034 --> 00:37:16,065
Yeah. 
You know? 

591
00:37:16,065 --> 00:37:18,817
Well, of course, I 
 know my 
position, our position at Air 

592
00:37:18,817 --> 00:37:24,035
Consulting, and and and I think 
 you and I share this this sort 

593
00:37:24,035 --> 00:37:30,820
of ideology 
 as well, is that 
it's not AI. 

594
00:37:30,820 --> 00:37:34,523
It's not human. 
It's 
 the hybrid. 

595
00:37:34,523 --> 00:37:36,900
Right. 
It's the partnership 
 between 

596
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:41,294
AI and human Right. 
That ultimately is 
 the path. 

597
00:37:41,294 --> 00:37:44,655
Right? 
And But that's gonna 
 require 

598
00:37:44,655 --> 00:37:46,709
leadership. 
But it's gonna be it's gonna 
 

599
00:37:46,717 --> 00:37:47,455
require leadership. 
Right? 

600
00:37:47,455 --> 00:37:52,255
Because we're always going to, 
you know, default to the path of

601
00:37:52,255 --> 00:37:55,760
least resistance, which is just 
delegating 
 something off and 

602
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,017
and and not using our brain. 
Right? 

603
00:37:59,017 --> 00:38:01,150
Right. 
And 
 and saying, alright. 

604
00:38:01,150 --> 00:38:02,670
This AI can take 
 care of all 
this. 

605
00:38:02,670 --> 00:38:07,150
It's gonna do and and 
 then we 
will, you know, consciously or 

606
00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:12,089
or 
 accidentally or 
unconsciously, seed our control 

607
00:38:12,089 --> 00:38:16,983
to Well, because as somebody 
said way 
 back in the 

608
00:38:16,983 --> 00:38:20,531
eighteenth century, there's no 
expedient that man will 
 not go

609
00:38:20,531 --> 00:38:23,319
to avoid the labor of thinking. 
Okay. 

610
00:38:23,319 --> 00:38:24,830
You know? 
Yeah. 

611
00:38:24,830 --> 00:38:26,590
Which is true when 
 you think 
about it. 

612
00:38:26,590 --> 00:38:30,990
I I I presume that is more 
 
relevant than ever right now. 

613
00:38:30,990 --> 00:38:32,430
Right. 
And that is that conversation. 

614
00:38:32,430 --> 00:38:35,275
That's that's the that's 
 the 
lure of AI. 

615
00:38:35,275 --> 00:38:36,830
Okay. 
We don't have to think. 
 

616
00:38:36,838 --> 00:38:39,445
AI is gonna do it for us. 
AI's got it. 

617
00:38:39,445 --> 00:38:46,142
But, I mean, unless 
 we work 
with it in a in a smart way, 

618
00:38:46,142 --> 00:38:51,770
we're 
 in for a lot of trouble.
I do have a lot of 
 curiosity 

619
00:38:51,770 --> 00:38:59,380
around the distinction 
 between
management and leadership. 

620
00:38:59,380 --> 00:39:02,580
And that's something that you 
talk 
 a lot about in the book. 

621
00:39:02,580 --> 00:39:04,871
Yeah. 
You call it conventional 
 

622
00:39:04,879 --> 00:39:06,669
management Right. 
Conventional management. 

623
00:39:06,669 --> 00:39:09,455
Yeah. 
Versus enlightened 
 leadership.

624
00:39:09,455 --> 00:39:11,583
Right. 
And I guess maybe you could 
 

625
00:39:11,591 --> 00:39:14,423
help us just you could frame up 
those two concepts, 
 

626
00:39:14,431 --> 00:39:16,380
conventional management, 
enlightened leadership, and 
 

627
00:39:16,388 --> 00:39:21,600
just help us understand, like, 
what should leaders strive 
 to 

628
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:27,180
be doing in order to become more
effective, 
 more enlightened? 

629
00:39:27,180 --> 00:39:32,150
Right. 
Well, the thing is that, 
 with 

630
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:36,448
conventional management, I I 
talk about they follow the 
 

631
00:39:36,456 --> 00:39:40,965
what I call the SIG FAM system. 
And SIG FAM. 

632
00:39:40,965 --> 00:39:43,025
Yeah. 
Which is With a s or a c? 

633
00:39:43,025 --> 00:39:46,625
Sig It's c I g f a m. 
Okay. 

634
00:39:46,625 --> 00:39:47,665
K? 
SIG FAM. 

635
00:39:47,665 --> 00:39:54,300
So and Sigfam, and the c stands 
 for competition. 

636
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:57,810
Competition. 
People to compete 
 against each

637
00:39:57,810 --> 00:39:58,980
other. 
Okay? 

638
00:39:59,820 --> 00:40:03,495
I is incentives. 
We give people incentives all 

639
00:40:03,495 --> 00:40:05,875
the 
 time to make them work 
harder. 

640
00:40:05,875 --> 00:40:10,423
Okay? 
We we give them g, 
 which is 

641
00:40:10,423 --> 00:40:12,195
for goals. 
Goals. 

642
00:40:12,195 --> 00:40:17,440
Constantly giving them goals, 
And f is for fear. 

643
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,400
We use an element of fear 
 to 
to mobilize people. 

644
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,040
And then the other thing is 
 
the m is for measurement. 

645
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,300
We're constantly 
 measuring 
everything, measuring people 

646
00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:32,012
against things. 
And so SIGFAM, when you 
 think 

647
00:40:32,012 --> 00:40:38,165
about it, competition, 
incentives, goals, fear, and 

648
00:40:38,165 --> 00:40:43,000
then oh, 
 I've I missed out one
a, which is accountability. 

649
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,020
Accountability. 
Okay. 

650
00:40:44,020 --> 00:40:47,080
And 
 then, m, which is 
measurement. 

651
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,480
These are all 
 extrinsic 
motivators. 

652
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,099
They're things that we 
 bring 
to pressure people who work as 

653
00:40:54,099 --> 00:40:56,685
hard as 
 we want them to work. 
Yes. 

654
00:40:56,685 --> 00:41:00,103
It's like beating up people, 
whipping them all 
 the time we 

655
00:41:00,103 --> 00:41:01,805
use. 
That's what the 
 conventional 

656
00:41:01,805 --> 00:41:04,814
managers use. 
They they use that to so 
 that 

657
00:41:04,814 --> 00:41:07,645
people have to do what was 
required. 

658
00:41:07,645 --> 00:41:12,415
Okay? 
Whereas, so to me, conventional 

659
00:41:12,415 --> 00:41:16,549
 management is about, getting 
people to to do 
 things, and 

660
00:41:16,549 --> 00:41:21,140
they have to do it. 
But it's all through, 
 these 

661
00:41:21,140 --> 00:41:24,475
sort of external forces 
pressures. 

662
00:41:24,475 --> 00:41:27,787
That we bring on people. 
And that, of course, creates 

663
00:41:27,787 --> 00:41:29,835
tremendous 
 dissension within 
society. 

664
00:41:29,835 --> 00:41:33,355
I mean, we have tremendous 
 
dissension in society right now,

665
00:41:33,355 --> 00:41:37,126
and a lot of that is because all

 the pressure that we put on 

666
00:41:37,126 --> 00:41:41,824
people as opposed to 
 
enlightened leadership, which is

667
00:41:41,824 --> 00:41:46,170
using ex 
 intrinsic Okay. 
Motivators, which come 
 in the 

668
00:41:46,170 --> 00:41:48,810
form of PCAM. 
P is for purpose. 

669
00:41:48,810 --> 00:41:53,399
You give people a real 
 purpose
that they can really identify 

670
00:41:53,399 --> 00:41:56,620
with. 
And then e is for equality that 

671
00:41:56,620 --> 00:42:01,395
 you treat people with respect. 
You treat them as 
 as equal and

672
00:42:01,395 --> 00:42:08,106
and and, decent people. 
And then a is giving them 
 a 

673
00:42:08,106 --> 00:42:10,358
sense of achievement and 
accomplishment because 
 

674
00:42:10,366 --> 00:42:13,690
everybody wants to achieve 
something, accomplish something.

675
00:42:13,690 --> 00:42:18,660
And c is for camaraderie, okay, 
that they're in an environment 


676
00:42:18,668 --> 00:42:21,545
where they enjoy working with 
their colleagues. 

677
00:42:21,545 --> 00:42:25,825
That's the c. 
And then we get the a, which is 

678
00:42:26,505 --> 00:42:30,345
which we which we give 
 them a 
sense of autonomy. 

679
00:42:30,345 --> 00:42:34,650
We delegate, and we give 
 them 
an empowerment, autonomy and 

680
00:42:34,650 --> 00:42:36,868
empowerment. 
And then, of 
 course, the final

681
00:42:36,868 --> 00:42:41,567
m, we we give them the the 
knowledge 
 that they need, you 

682
00:42:41,567 --> 00:42:45,730
know, that they need to do what 
 they they have to do. 

683
00:42:45,785 --> 00:42:48,585
Okay? 
We use these intrinsic 
 

684
00:42:48,593 --> 00:42:53,241
motivators because these PCAM 
factors are factors 
 within 

685
00:42:53,241 --> 00:42:57,450
people That naturally motivates 
 them to want to do it. 

686
00:42:57,450 --> 00:43:00,810
So now we create an environment 
 where which is a want to 

687
00:43:00,810 --> 00:43:04,650
environment versus a 
 have to 
environment. 

688
00:43:04,650 --> 00:43:08,382
And that's really what my 
 book
is gonna be about, creating a 

689
00:43:08,382 --> 00:43:12,163
culture which is 
 instead of a 
have to culture, we create a 

690
00:43:12,163 --> 00:43:15,703
want to culture. 
And through that, we 
 will then

691
00:43:15,703 --> 00:43:19,355
get an optimum performance from 
our 
 organization because 

692
00:43:19,355 --> 00:43:23,035
everybody wants to be very best.
Yeah. 

693
00:43:23,035 --> 00:43:26,532
A want to, not a have to feeling

 as though they're forced into 

694
00:43:26,532 --> 00:43:30,760
it. 
How do you so so SIG FAM 
 is a 

695
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,548
have to culture. 
Right. 

696
00:43:32,548 --> 00:43:36,760
PCAM is a I want to. 
 
There's intrinsic motivation. 

697
00:43:39,055 --> 00:43:41,375
Is there ever a situation 
 
where you could have a hundred 

698
00:43:41,375 --> 00:43:47,519
percent PCAM with zero SIG FAM, 
or is it about, like, eighty 

699
00:43:47,519 --> 00:43:51,490
twenty or seventy thirty? 
Like, should should a leader 
 

700
00:43:51,498 --> 00:43:55,920
be striving to have some 
conventional management? 

701
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,966
Like, is that necessary? 
No. 

702
00:43:57,966 --> 00:44:00,160
I do accept both 
 dimensions. 
Yes. 

703
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:05,103
I do accept both my men 
 an 
extreme sig fam is when you're 

704
00:44:05,103 --> 00:44:08,529
in an emergency, 
 when people 
really, you know We're in a 

705
00:44:08,529 --> 00:44:10,531
crisis. 
There's a crisis, and you really

706
00:44:10,531 --> 00:44:13,475

 gotta everybody's gotta focus.
And whether they want to or not,

707
00:44:13,475 --> 00:44:15,555
they've just gotta buckle 
 down
and get it done. 

708
00:44:15,555 --> 00:44:18,275
Okay? 
And that's probably an 
 

709
00:44:18,283 --> 00:44:22,260
extreme, sig fam situation, but 
then there could be 
 situations

710
00:44:22,260 --> 00:44:26,040
like that. 
But I think on on by and large, 

711
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:31,384
I would like to see companies 
 
working where the PCAMP is more 

712
00:44:31,384 --> 00:44:33,880
than the SIGFAM. 
Yes. 

713
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,589
Okay. 
That's And the SIGFAM 
 does, of

714
00:44:36,589 --> 00:44:40,201
course, create a certain amount 
of 
 structure, systems, and so 

715
00:44:40,201 --> 00:44:43,701
forth. 
We need that in order to keep 
 

716
00:44:43,709 --> 00:44:47,298
things relatively stable. 
If we had too much PCAM, things 

717
00:44:47,298 --> 00:44:51,290
could get a little bit out 
 of 
get a bit chaotic, basically. 

718
00:44:51,290 --> 00:44:57,444
So as I've said with with, with 
leadership and management, 
 

719
00:44:57,452 --> 00:45:03,970
it's the same as driving a car. 
To me, management is the brake, 

720
00:45:04,675 --> 00:45:07,595
and leadership is 
 the 
accelerator. 

721
00:45:07,795 --> 00:45:10,835
So if you really want 
 to build
momentum, you bring leadership 


722
00:45:10,843 --> 00:45:13,235
to the party. 
If you wanna slow things down, 

723
00:45:13,235 --> 00:45:15,555
you bring management 
 to the 
party. 

724
00:45:15,555 --> 00:45:17,655
Okay? 
Just the same as 
 when you're 

725
00:45:17,655 --> 00:45:19,250
driving a car. 
Wow. 

726
00:45:19,250 --> 00:45:22,930
And if I could get if we could 

educate from my point of view 

727
00:45:22,930 --> 00:45:26,937
executives to know the 
 
difference between the two, so 

728
00:45:26,937 --> 00:45:30,206
depending on what they want 
 
and how they want it to be, they

729
00:45:30,206 --> 00:45:34,907
know when to they know 
 when to
ply the gas and when to put ply 

730
00:45:34,907 --> 00:45:35,995
the brake. 
Yes. 

731
00:45:35,995 --> 00:45:38,875
Yes. 
We don't have 
 that clarity 

732
00:45:38,875 --> 00:45:40,435
right now. 
Right. 

733
00:45:40,435 --> 00:45:44,075
Right. 
Now so one thing is you you do 


734
00:45:44,083 --> 00:45:46,280
need stability and structure. 
Right. 

735
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,220
But that is not how 
 you 
thrive. 

736
00:45:49,220 --> 00:45:52,700
Right. 
That's not how you you 
 grow 

737
00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:53,720
sustainably. 
Right. 

738
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:58,360
You grow through the PCAM PCAM 

and that enlightened leadership.

739
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,825
Momentum that that builds. 
Yes. 

740
00:46:01,105 --> 00:46:06,585
Tell me that sir sir, that's, 
like, very 
 instructive as far 

741
00:46:06,585 --> 00:46:11,345
as, like, individual leadership 
 and how to be, you know, 

742
00:46:11,345 --> 00:46:14,905
essentially, like, a 
 highly 
effective leader. 

743
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:23,240
When you step back and 
 look at
organizations and successful 

744
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:29,564
organizations versus 
unsuccessful or 
 declining 

745
00:46:29,564 --> 00:46:33,027
organizations, You you bring up 
something in 
 your book about 

746
00:46:33,027 --> 00:46:35,445
the five the five curses. 
Right? 

747
00:46:35,445 --> 00:46:39,085
So the five curses. 
I guess the five curses of 
 

748
00:46:39,093 --> 00:46:42,165
conventional management, or is 
it five curses of 
 They're very

749
00:46:42,165 --> 00:46:45,460
they're very compatible with 
 
conventional management. 

750
00:46:45,460 --> 00:46:48,980
Tell us about these five curses.
And then and then presumably, 

751
00:46:48,980 --> 00:46:51,780
are are there five antidotes 
 
as well to the curses? 

752
00:46:51,780 --> 00:46:53,700
Yeah. 
Just help us understand. 

753
00:46:53,700 --> 00:46:56,875
You know? 
Well, from my point of view, the

754
00:46:56,875 --> 00:47:03,755
five curses are bureaucracy, 
hierarchy, efficiency think, 

755
00:47:04,435 --> 00:47:08,700
negative messaging, and, 
corruption. 

756
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:11,472
And corruption. 
Those are the five curses 
 that

757
00:47:11,472 --> 00:47:16,380
we have in in in business and, 

organizational life today. 

758
00:47:16,380 --> 00:47:21,461
That's what we've grown up with.
And I would like to see that 
 

759
00:47:21,469 --> 00:47:26,905
through enlightened leadership 
that we have antidotes to that. 

760
00:47:26,905 --> 00:47:31,945
So instead of bureaucracy, 
 we 
put much more emphasis on two 

761
00:47:31,945 --> 00:47:34,936
way communication. 
So we don't need a bureaucracy 


762
00:47:34,944 --> 00:47:39,084
to force people down. 
We we cause people to go in the 

763
00:47:39,084 --> 00:47:41,140
right 
 direction because of the
communication. 

764
00:47:41,140 --> 00:47:45,540
Have real dialogue. 
With with the tools that we have

765
00:47:45,540 --> 00:47:50,335
today, AI and all all 
 
computers and everything, we 

766
00:47:50,335 --> 00:47:54,115
have tremendous 
 communication 
tools that we can work with 

767
00:47:54,115 --> 00:47:57,944
people in a much more 
 dynamic 
way rather than put them into a 

768
00:47:57,944 --> 00:47:59,315
structure, a 
 bureaucratic 
structure. 

769
00:47:59,315 --> 00:48:02,269
So hierarchical communication 
 
would be you would think of that

770
00:48:02,269 --> 00:48:04,235
as, like, one 
 way 
communication? 

771
00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:10,480
Well, in today, in 
 in in a 
conventional management, I do 

772
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:11,930
believe 
 it's one way 
communication. 

773
00:48:11,930 --> 00:48:14,680
One way communication. 
I need 
 you to do this. 

774
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:15,290
Yeah. 
Right. 

775
00:48:15,290 --> 00:48:17,229
I want this done. 
Okay. 

776
00:48:17,229 --> 00:48:19,845
That's one way. 
Two way communication is where 


777
00:48:19,853 --> 00:48:24,441
you get together with a group of
people and say, what 
 could we 

778
00:48:24,441 --> 00:48:27,125
achieve together? 
What would we like 
 to do 

779
00:48:27,125 --> 00:48:29,125
together? 
Where where would we 
 like to 

780
00:48:29,125 --> 00:48:31,524
go together? 
Where would we like 
 to be 

781
00:48:31,524 --> 00:48:33,558
tomorrow? 
And you can have an enormously 


782
00:48:33,566 --> 00:48:36,493
wonderful discussion out of that
and then come 
 to some 

783
00:48:36,493 --> 00:48:39,190
consensus. 
And then if you do 
 it in the 

784
00:48:39,190 --> 00:48:42,184
right way, I mean, you as a 
leader 
 will be left in the 

785
00:48:42,184 --> 00:48:44,868
room. 
They'll all be gone to go and 
 

786
00:48:44,876 --> 00:48:48,995
take care of it, basically. 
You're you're left behind to 
 

787
00:48:49,003 --> 00:48:51,379
watch and see what happens. 
Okay. 

788
00:48:51,379 --> 00:48:53,811
So that's one antidote is 
 two 
way communication. 

789
00:48:53,811 --> 00:48:55,555
Right. 
Give me what what are 
 some 

790
00:48:55,555 --> 00:48:59,310
other ones that Well, then we 
have with hierarchy, I talk 

791
00:48:59,310 --> 00:49:01,770
about instead of 
 having having
heterarchies. 

792
00:49:01,770 --> 00:49:02,970
Het okay. 
Okay. 

793
00:49:02,970 --> 00:49:07,322
A hierarchy is where 
 people 
sit on the pinnacle, and they 

794
00:49:07,322 --> 00:49:09,530
drive the organization. 
Okay? 

795
00:49:09,530 --> 00:49:13,435
With SIGVAM, obviously, that's 

how they make that's how we have

796
00:49:13,435 --> 00:49:17,590
been doing it 
 for a long time.
Whereas I'm talking about 
 

797
00:49:17,598 --> 00:49:21,951
heterarchy is where the leader 
is at the center and is 
 

798
00:49:21,959 --> 00:49:25,233
orchestrating rather like an 
orchestra leader is 
 

799
00:49:25,241 --> 00:49:28,564
orchestrating the the, the 
music, if you like, is 

800
00:49:28,564 --> 00:49:32,097
organizing the working with the 
 people around them to say, 

801
00:49:32,097 --> 00:49:35,317
okay. 
Let's, let's talk 
 about we're 

802
00:49:35,317 --> 00:49:38,050
gonna focus outside of 
ourselves. 

803
00:49:38,050 --> 00:49:42,155
What is there out 
 there that 
we could do, and how can we 
 

804
00:49:42,163 --> 00:49:44,515
collaborate together? 
It's a much more collaborative 


805
00:49:44,523 --> 00:49:47,711
rather than trying to drive. 
It's an orchestrating role 
 

806
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,142
rather than a driving role. 
It's beautiful. 

807
00:49:51,142 --> 00:49:53,584
Yeah. 
I mean, when I think about an 
 

808
00:49:53,592 --> 00:49:55,188
organizational chart, you know, 
traditional organizational 
 

809
00:49:55,196 --> 00:49:56,820
chart, you know, you got won't 
see that. 

810
00:49:56,820 --> 00:49:59,520
Leader at the top and, 
 you 
know, your next level, next 

811
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,940
level, next level. 
This is leader in the middle. 

812
00:50:01,940 --> 00:50:05,868
Middle, and then the people 
 
around them all facing outwards 

813
00:50:05,868 --> 00:50:09,945
to the market or the 
 customers
they're gonna be serving. 

814
00:50:10,225 --> 00:50:12,839
Wow. 
That's a that's a 
 beautiful, 

815
00:50:12,839 --> 00:50:15,785
very, very illustrative 
 of the
concept. 

816
00:50:15,825 --> 00:50:18,205
Okay. 
So that that would be 
 antidote

817
00:50:18,205 --> 00:50:21,505
number two, heterarchy rather 
 
than hierarchy. 

818
00:50:21,505 --> 00:50:22,569
Right. 
Okay. 

819
00:50:22,569 --> 00:50:26,803
Okay. 
And then we have, 
 we have, 

820
00:50:26,803 --> 00:50:30,354
efficiency. 
Of course, the the opposite to 


821
00:50:30,362 --> 00:50:34,274
efficiency is effectiveness. 
And efficiency is, to me, from 

822
00:50:34,274 --> 00:50:39,613
my way of seeing it, is very 
much about 
 squeezing, cutting 

823
00:50:39,613 --> 00:50:46,134
costs, minimizing, not doing 
things on the 
 cheap and and so

824
00:50:46,134 --> 00:50:49,405
forth, whereas effectiveness is 
 much more about innovation, 

825
00:50:49,405 --> 00:50:56,790
elegance, breakthroughs, how we 
you know, what 
 what because 

826
00:50:56,790 --> 00:51:01,258
organizations are constantly as 
they grow, they come up against 

827
00:51:01,258 --> 00:51:05,011
obstacles 
 And difficulties 
where they can grow, and they 

828
00:51:05,011 --> 00:51:06,995
have to 
 find a breakthrough. 
Yes. 

829
00:51:06,995 --> 00:51:09,245
Efficiency won't get you 
 
there. 

830
00:51:09,245 --> 00:51:11,132
Effectiveness will. 
And effectiveness thinking 
 

831
00:51:11,140 --> 00:51:14,640
will help you to create the 
breakthroughs that you need to 

832
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,090
make 
 to go to the next phase, 
basically. 

833
00:51:17,090 --> 00:51:21,042
Efficiency important, but but 
it's not gonna get 
 you to the 

834
00:51:21,042 --> 00:51:21,490
breakthrough. 
No. 

835
00:51:21,490 --> 00:51:25,112
I mean, in fact, if you 
 have 
too much efficiency, in my 

836
00:51:25,112 --> 00:51:29,170
opinion, you will drive 
 the 
organization to its end. 

837
00:51:29,170 --> 00:51:31,485
It will you it will go 
 
gradually. 

838
00:51:31,485 --> 00:51:34,905
You will kill it. 
Like, squeezes the soul 
 out of

839
00:51:34,905 --> 00:51:37,127
the organization. 
The thing that hurts me most 
 

840
00:51:37,135 --> 00:51:41,445
is some a country like England 
where I'm from, if you we 
 we 

841
00:51:41,445 --> 00:51:44,770
know what England was, an 
empire, and so forth, you 
 

842
00:51:44,778 --> 00:51:49,274
know, a hundred years ago. 
But, because of the two world 

843
00:51:49,274 --> 00:51:52,340
wars, it cost them so much 
 
money and and people. 

844
00:51:52,340 --> 00:51:57,636
I mean, we England lost 
 so 
much talent in two wars as well 

845
00:51:57,636 --> 00:52:00,595
as 
 lost so much money. 
Okay? 

846
00:52:00,595 --> 00:52:03,777
And since that time, all we've 
been trying to do is 
 

847
00:52:03,785 --> 00:52:06,515
everything on the cheap so that 
we can survive. 

848
00:52:06,515 --> 00:52:09,955
That's what the English and 
 
that's why the English economy 

849
00:52:09,955 --> 00:52:14,403
is going down and down and down.
It's not going If you if you 
 

850
00:52:14,411 --> 00:52:17,930
were to read some of the things 
I read coming across on 
 

851
00:52:17,938 --> 00:52:22,105
LinkedIn by people in England 
that are so frustrated at 
 the 

852
00:52:22,105 --> 00:52:25,474
country going nowhere because 
England's been trying 
 to do 

853
00:52:25,474 --> 00:52:29,229
everything So what's the curse 
then out of the five 
 curses 

854
00:52:29,229 --> 00:52:32,425
that they're sort of, falling 
prey to, would you say? 

855
00:52:32,425 --> 00:52:34,359
It's, I guess, efficiency. 
 
Efficiency. 

856
00:52:34,359 --> 00:52:36,195
Right. 
Trying to do everything As 
 

857
00:52:36,203 --> 00:52:39,065
opposed to effectiveness. 
That's the that's the antidote. 

858
00:52:39,065 --> 00:52:42,796
And then, of course, we 
 have 
negative messaging, which is 

859
00:52:42,796 --> 00:52:46,095
about allowing people 
 in the 
company to run down their 

860
00:52:46,095 --> 00:52:49,006
colleagues, to 
 run down their 
company, being negative about 

861
00:52:49,006 --> 00:52:52,510
why this 
 is not right and 
that's not right rather than 

862
00:52:52,510 --> 00:52:54,860
having 
 a more optimistic 
flavor. 

863
00:52:54,860 --> 00:52:59,655
And there there are those people

 who who like to be negative, 

864
00:52:59,655 --> 00:53:02,695
and perhaps we have to weed 
 
those out of our organization 

865
00:53:02,695 --> 00:53:06,332
because they they will they 
they're 
 a curse on the 

866
00:53:06,332 --> 00:53:07,863
organization. 
And then eventually, of 
 

867
00:53:07,871 --> 00:53:10,750
course, we get to corruption, 
and corruption is 
 not just 

868
00:53:10,750 --> 00:53:13,205
about money. 
It's corruption in decisions 
 

869
00:53:13,213 --> 00:53:19,756
and taking care of yourselves. 
And, and so not that 
 we can be

870
00:53:19,756 --> 00:53:23,857
perfect, but we need to have a 
decent 
 level of integrity in a

871
00:53:23,857 --> 00:53:24,555
company. 
Yes. 

872
00:53:24,555 --> 00:53:29,075
In order to succeed. 
When you think about these 
 

873
00:53:29,083 --> 00:53:32,795
five curses and anecdote Right. 
Let's call them, like, pairings.

874
00:53:32,795 --> 00:53:35,071
Well, they're not pairings. 
They're, you know, I guess, 
 

875
00:53:35,079 --> 00:53:40,444
opposites of each other. 
But but is there one in 

876
00:53:40,444 --> 00:53:47,620
particular that 
 comes to mind 
as being, like, most damaging or

877
00:53:47,620 --> 00:53:51,070
consequential 
 in terms of the 
antidote? 

878
00:53:51,925 --> 00:53:55,845
Well, from my point of view, 
 I
I I believe efficiency. 

879
00:53:55,845 --> 00:53:56,885
Efficiency? 
Yeah. 

880
00:53:56,885 --> 00:54:04,580
So Because I feel I feel, I I 
constantly feel frustrated 
 

881
00:54:04,588 --> 00:54:08,095
that all we hear about is 
efficiency, 
 efficiency, 

882
00:54:08,095 --> 00:54:10,300
efficiency. 
In some cases, of course, 

883
00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:12,380
they're using the word 
 
efficiency when they should be 

884
00:54:12,380 --> 00:54:15,768
using the word 
 effectiveness, 
quite frankly, but we've just 

885
00:54:15,768 --> 00:54:17,580
got obsessed 
 with the word 
efficiency. 

886
00:54:17,580 --> 00:54:23,395
But, but, you know, to me, 
efficiency is also a 
 euphemism

887
00:54:23,395 --> 00:54:26,462
for the word profit. 
We don't talk about 
 profit 

888
00:54:26,462 --> 00:54:28,995
anymore. 
We talk about 
 efficiency 

889
00:54:28,995 --> 00:54:30,115
instead. 
Yes. 

890
00:54:30,115 --> 00:54:33,888
So it's a it's a much more 
 
acceptable word because, you 

891
00:54:33,888 --> 00:54:38,900
know, when you 
 think about it,
efficiency is a 
 euphemism for 

892
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:41,572
profit. 
And and not that 
 I'm against 

893
00:54:41,572 --> 00:54:43,920
that. 
I mean, any any company needs 
 

894
00:54:43,928 --> 00:54:47,833
a degree of profit to get the 
sort of support and investors 
 

895
00:54:47,841 --> 00:54:51,841
and so forth that they want, but
you you can overdo it to 
 the 

896
00:54:51,841 --> 00:54:55,105
point where you're killing the 
company rather than 
 helping 

897
00:54:55,105 --> 00:54:58,225
it, basically. 
Wow. 

898
00:55:00,345 --> 00:55:04,505
So that that I that to me is 
 
one of the the biggest curses 

899
00:55:04,505 --> 00:55:09,203
and which, of course, goes 
 
along with another thing that I 

900
00:55:09,203 --> 00:55:14,180
is is the 
 the whole issue of 
numbers and peep over people. 

901
00:55:14,180 --> 00:55:15,860
Numbers over people. 
Right. 

902
00:55:15,860 --> 00:55:18,170
That we are obsessed with 
 
numbers. 

903
00:55:18,170 --> 00:55:21,725
We've become obsessed. 
Even in from my point of view, 

904
00:55:21,725 --> 00:55:26,813
when I think back to thirty 
 or
forty years ago And where we've 

905
00:55:26,813 --> 00:55:30,817
come since then, we're much more
numbers as 
 obsessed now than 

906
00:55:30,817 --> 00:55:33,365
we were forty or fifty years 
ago. 

907
00:55:33,770 --> 00:55:37,670
And that's because, 
 in my 
opinion, we've we've allowed the

908
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:40,570
financial 
 people to to take 
the helm. 

909
00:55:40,570 --> 00:55:43,428
Yeah. 
Well, it's it's it's 
 it's 

910
00:55:43,428 --> 00:55:48,377
really, like, tricky because an 
organization, you know, 
 grows 

911
00:55:48,377 --> 00:55:54,941
to a certain size. 
And, you know, for for many 

912
00:55:54,941 --> 00:55:59,729
reasons, an organization 
 will 
will choose to IPO and go on to 

913
00:55:59,729 --> 00:56:04,160
the public markets. 
And, and then what you 
 see is 

914
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:10,491
is in order to keep being 
successful, 
 you have to engage

915
00:56:10,491 --> 00:56:13,902
in in some 
 of these curses. 
Right? 

916
00:56:13,902 --> 00:56:15,769
Especially the 
 efficiency 
piece. 

917
00:56:15,769 --> 00:56:18,385
Right? 
Like, you've got to you've 
 

918
00:56:18,393 --> 00:56:22,183
gotta be profitable. 
And it See, I'm not I'm not 
 so

919
00:56:22,183 --> 00:56:25,395
sure about that because, in 
fact, when you see the 
 way 

920
00:56:25,395 --> 00:56:28,075
that companies grow, they grow 
in a spiral fashion. 

921
00:56:28,075 --> 00:56:29,330
Okay. 
Say more. 

922
00:56:29,330 --> 00:56:33,194
Right? 
They grow in a they it's 
 like 

923
00:56:33,194 --> 00:56:37,384
a growing spiral, or if you have
efficiency, 
 it's a downward 

924
00:56:37,384 --> 00:56:39,330
spiral. 
If you have effectiveness, 
 

925
00:56:39,338 --> 00:56:43,666
it's an upward spiral. 
But the thing is as it 
 as it 

926
00:56:43,666 --> 00:56:49,413
goes through each loop, it comes
to a point where, you know, the 

927
00:56:49,413 --> 00:56:51,545
company feels 
 it's not growing
anymore. 

928
00:56:51,545 --> 00:56:54,699
And, of course, we can use some 
of 
 the conventional management

929
00:56:54,699 --> 00:56:58,657
tools that we that have been 
used 
 downsizing or rightsizing

930
00:56:58,657 --> 00:57:03,800
or some of those 
 things rather
than, and each one of those 
 

931
00:57:03,808 --> 00:57:07,340
cycles is what I call a 
reinvention cycle. 

932
00:57:07,340 --> 00:57:09,820
Companies have to go 
 through 
reinvention cycles. 

933
00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:11,740
They have to 
 reinvent 
themselves. 

934
00:57:11,740 --> 00:57:14,783
They come to a point 
 where 
they're not growing, that things

935
00:57:14,783 --> 00:57:17,535
are not going 
 in the way they 
want. 

936
00:57:17,535 --> 00:57:19,695
They have to 
 reinvent 
themselves. 

937
00:57:19,695 --> 00:57:23,055
And by reinventing themselves, 

they find new strategies. 

938
00:57:23,055 --> 00:57:25,215
They find a different 
 way of 
working. 

939
00:57:25,215 --> 00:57:28,575
They upgrade in certain areas 
and 
 so forth so that they can 

940
00:57:28,575 --> 00:57:30,740
now move forward again. 
I see. 

941
00:57:30,740 --> 00:57:33,854
So so it's never a company's 
never 
 just growing in a 

942
00:57:33,854 --> 00:57:34,780
straight line. 
No. 

943
00:57:34,780 --> 00:57:37,607
Right? 
It's it's more 
 like these 

944
00:57:37,607 --> 00:57:40,820
spirals, and they they get 
 
Bigger and bigger. 

945
00:57:40,820 --> 00:57:42,260
Bigger and bigger. 
 
Right. 

946
00:57:42,260 --> 00:57:43,340
Like this. 
Okay. 

947
00:57:43,425 --> 00:57:47,539
And, and so that that 
 would 
imply then that an organization,

948
00:57:47,539 --> 00:57:53,755
you know, 
 is successful today.
Reaches a point where 
 it's not

949
00:57:53,755 --> 00:57:55,080
growing anymore. 
Okay. 

950
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,020
So now they have to go 
 through
this reinvention cycle. 

951
00:57:58,020 --> 00:58:02,350
And there's a reinvention cycle.
Reinvent reeducating 
 your 

952
00:58:02,350 --> 00:58:06,036
people, re looking at the 
products 
 that you're doing and

953
00:58:06,036 --> 00:58:10,435
say, do we need to come 
 up 
with different we we need to 

954
00:58:10,435 --> 00:58:12,195
reinvent. 
We need to come up with 
 

955
00:58:12,203 --> 00:58:15,022
different products, different 
services that, the 
 market has 

956
00:58:15,022 --> 00:58:19,988
changed to some extent, so we 
have to adapt 
 ourselves in a 

957
00:58:19,988 --> 00:58:23,710
different way. 
But, again, if we 
 educate our 

958
00:58:23,710 --> 00:58:27,870
people, they will work with us 

to find the next cycle. 

959
00:58:27,870 --> 00:58:33,600
And in fact, one of the things 
that I talk 
 about right at the

960
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:38,385
beginning of my book is how, in 
fact, we we have a very 
 

961
00:58:38,393 --> 00:58:43,092
structured way of of growing 
whereby we we project 
 what we 

962
00:58:43,092 --> 00:58:47,305
want to do, then we plan, then 
we organize. 

963
00:58:47,305 --> 00:58:51,798
Yes. 
Then we direct everything 
 

964
00:58:51,806 --> 00:58:56,480
appropriately, and then control 
everything to make sure that so 

965
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,890
we 
 project the numbers that we
want. 

966
00:58:58,890 --> 00:59:01,570
We plan for the 
 numbers that 
we want. 

967
00:59:01,850 --> 00:59:05,795
We organize for the 
 numbers 
that we want. 

968
00:59:05,795 --> 00:59:09,091
We direct for the 
 numbers that
we want, and then we control 

969
00:59:09,091 --> 00:59:12,035
everything 
 to make sure that 
those numbers are accomplished. 

970
00:59:12,035 --> 00:59:14,504
Okay. 
It's all around 
 the numbers. 

971
00:59:14,504 --> 00:59:15,315
Okay? 
Yes. 

972
00:59:15,315 --> 00:59:21,820
Whereas with the leaders, they 
they have a different, thing 

973
00:59:21,820 --> 00:59:25,970
where they envision 
opportunities. 

974
00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:27,465
Yes. 
And then they position 
 

975
00:59:27,473 --> 00:59:31,121
themselves to take advantage of 
those opportunities, and then 

976
00:59:31,121 --> 00:59:34,569
they engage their 
 people to 
pursue those opportunities with 

977
00:59:34,569 --> 00:59:36,859
them. 
And then they get then 
 they go

978
00:59:36,859 --> 00:59:39,331
to other people. 
Who else do we need to 
 

979
00:59:39,339 --> 00:59:41,955
collaborate with to pursue these
opportunities? 

980
00:59:41,955 --> 00:59:45,491
And then eventually, they will 
orchestrate everything 
 to 

981
00:59:45,491 --> 00:59:50,180
pursue those opportunities. 
And now you create a cyclical, 

982
00:59:50,460 --> 00:59:55,060
approach where the company, 
 
from my point of view, in in all

983
00:59:55,060 --> 00:59:57,580
of the tents and 
 purposes, is 
winding itself up. 

984
00:59:57,580 --> 00:59:59,230
Wow. 
Is winding itself up. 
 

985
00:59:59,238 --> 01:00:02,616
That's that's beautiful. 
It's I you know, 
 when you 

986
01:00:02,616 --> 01:00:06,935
describe that, the first word 
that 
 came to my my head was 

987
01:00:06,935 --> 01:00:11,690
energy, right, in that 
 latter 
model where it's these these 

988
01:00:11,690 --> 01:00:14,295
loops that that 
 continue to 
grow. 

989
01:00:14,295 --> 01:00:18,780
Grow and right. 
It it's there's there's 
 like 

990
01:00:18,780 --> 01:00:23,150
this flywheel momentum Yes. 
That gets created Right. 

991
01:00:23,150 --> 01:00:27,470
Through intrinsic motivation. 
Right. 

992
01:00:27,470 --> 01:00:32,285
Whereas in the former, you know,
where it's very sort of 
 

993
01:00:32,293 --> 01:00:35,175
conventional management, it's 
like, here's 
 what I need you 

994
01:00:35,175 --> 01:00:37,059
to do. 
Here's how we're 
 gonna measure

995
01:00:37,059 --> 01:00:39,149
it. 
Here's how the the cadence 
 of 

996
01:00:39,149 --> 01:00:41,405
our check ins and 
accountability. 

997
01:00:41,405 --> 01:00:45,168
Right. 
And force you to do 
 this to to

998
01:00:45,168 --> 01:00:47,496
some degree. 
And if you don't do it 
 Right. 

999
01:00:47,496 --> 01:00:50,400
Then you're right. 
You know, that's the 
 fear in 

1000
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:54,985
in in SIG FAM. 
So very different approaches. 

1001
01:00:54,985 --> 01:01:01,017
And And that's what in line 
leadership is 
 about, taking 

1002
01:01:01,017 --> 01:01:05,175
this, more cyclical approach to 
building 
 a company rather than

1003
01:01:05,175 --> 01:01:07,557
a structure. 
Well, I'd rather 
 be on that 

1004
01:01:07,557 --> 01:01:11,110
ship. 
But I will say that, you know, 

1005
01:01:11,110 --> 01:01:15,958
in all the organizations and 
 
leaders that I work with, it is 

1006
01:01:15,958 --> 01:01:19,350
at least a fifty 
 fifty, you 
know, balance. 

1007
01:01:19,350 --> 01:01:22,415
But usually, it's 
 flipped. 
Right? 

1008
01:01:22,415 --> 01:01:24,815
There's usually more 
 
conventional management than 

1009
01:01:24,815 --> 01:01:26,335
enlightened leadership. 
Right. 

1010
01:01:26,335 --> 01:01:31,153
And I think, you know, I think 
the call to 
 action here is, 

1011
01:01:31,153 --> 01:01:34,176
hey. 
Let's let's flip that from 
 

1012
01:01:34,184 --> 01:01:36,827
seventy thirty conventional 
management enlightened 
 

1013
01:01:36,835 --> 01:01:39,120
leadership. 
Let's flip it seventy percent. 

1014
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,840
When you look at those 
 
companies that are really 

1015
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:45,618
successful Yes. 
And there are 
 companies out 

1016
01:01:45,618 --> 01:01:49,285
there, It's it's because the 
 
leadership is there. 

1017
01:01:49,285 --> 01:01:53,445
There's more leadership in 
 the
company than management Yes. 

1018
01:01:53,445 --> 01:01:58,700
Basically. 
Well, Peter, we're 
 we're we're

1019
01:01:58,700 --> 01:02:05,974
coming towards the end of 
 the 
podcast, and you were you know, 

1020
01:02:05,974 --> 01:02:10,895
your 
 experiences as a boy 
scout, a soldier, a captain in 


1021
01:02:10,903 --> 01:02:16,695
the British military, a a very 
successful 
 consultant and 

1022
01:02:16,695 --> 01:02:19,895
entrepreneur because 
 you built
up, like, a huge part of the 

1023
01:02:19,895 --> 01:02:20,615
practice. 
Right. 

1024
01:02:20,615 --> 01:02:26,175
And then and then, you know, 
founding 
 your own practice, 

1025
01:02:26,380 --> 01:02:31,760
writing tons of 
 articles, a 
book, and now a second one on 

1026
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:32,780
the way. 
Yeah. 

1027
01:02:32,780 --> 01:02:41,140
When you take that over a half a
century, experiential wisdom, 

1028
01:02:41,595 --> 01:02:46,275
and I ask you the question, so 

what is leadership actually? 

1029
01:02:46,795 --> 01:02:51,853
You know, what comes to mind? 
Well, to me, it comes 
 down to 

1030
01:02:51,853 --> 01:02:55,845
those five characteristics I've 
 talked about earlier, which is 

1031
01:02:55,845 --> 01:02:58,750
is about 
 leadership is about 
vision. 

1032
01:02:58,750 --> 01:03:01,150
Yes. 
Leadership is about 
 integrity,

1033
01:03:01,150 --> 01:03:07,030
you know, that people can trust 
 you and and go with you. 

1034
01:03:08,265 --> 01:03:12,069
And even in difficult 
 times, 
they trust you, so they still go

1035
01:03:12,069 --> 01:03:14,865
with you 
 even in in in more 
difficult times. 

1036
01:03:15,305 --> 01:03:19,685
Courage that, you know, 
 that 
if you're if you're pursuing 

1037
01:03:19,685 --> 01:03:24,017
tomorrow, it takes there's a lot

 of uncertainty out there, and 

1038
01:03:24,017 --> 01:03:27,119
it takes a certain amount 
 of 
courage to pursue things when 

1039
01:03:27,119 --> 01:03:30,166
you don't clearly know 
absolutely 
 this is the way 

1040
01:03:30,166 --> 01:03:31,900
it's gonna be. 
Yes. 

1041
01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:35,407
Okay. 
And then, of course, 
 humility 

1042
01:03:35,407 --> 01:03:39,689
to not believe that whatever 
you've come up 
 with, that that

1043
01:03:39,689 --> 01:03:41,955
is it. 
That's the holy grail because 
 

1044
01:03:41,963 --> 01:03:45,470
there's always gonna be things 
that you haven't considered and 

1045
01:03:45,470 --> 01:03:48,035
and, 
 you need to be mindful 
of. 

1046
01:03:48,035 --> 01:03:52,025
And then, of course, wisdom 
being able to draw 
 off 

1047
01:03:52,025 --> 01:03:55,250
whatever experiences that you've
had to be 
 able to say, well, 

1048
01:03:55,250 --> 01:03:58,336
this feels right or that feels 
right 
 or that feels wrong and 

1049
01:03:58,336 --> 01:03:59,510
so forth. 
Yes. 

1050
01:03:59,510 --> 01:04:03,304
Yeah. 
One of the the the 
 most fun 

1051
01:04:03,304 --> 01:04:07,185
parts of of, kind of 
collaborating with you, you 

1052
01:04:07,185 --> 01:04:10,165
know, as you're as you've been 

writing this this incredible 

1053
01:04:10,165 --> 01:04:13,005
book coming out. 
And and just for the listeners, 

1054
01:04:13,005 --> 01:04:17,370
 what the title of the book. 
Well, the the the title of 
 the

1055
01:04:17,370 --> 01:04:20,490
book is The Enlightened Leader 
The Enlightened Leader. 

1056
01:04:20,490 --> 01:04:27,210
Transform from have to to want 
to cultures. 

1057
01:04:27,210 --> 01:04:30,410
Ugh. 
Have to to 
 want to cultures. 

1058
01:04:30,410 --> 01:04:37,015
Cultures for optimum venture 
performance. 

1059
01:04:37,015 --> 01:04:38,695
Beautiful. 
I love that. 

1060
01:04:38,695 --> 01:04:42,393
Going from have to to want 
 to.
Cultures. 

1061
01:04:42,393 --> 01:04:46,402
Cultures. 
One of the most fun parts 
 of 

1062
01:04:46,402 --> 01:04:50,160
our conversations has been, you 
know, me kind of 
 pressure 

1063
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,320
testing and and you saying, you 
know what? 

1064
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,827
This is where I'm not changing. 
Like, this is one 
 hundred 

1065
01:04:55,827 --> 01:04:59,028
percent. 
But then other other parts 
 of 

1066
01:04:59,028 --> 01:05:03,255
you saying, you know what? 
Let me give that a think. 

1067
01:05:03,255 --> 01:05:09,545
That's a really good point. 
And seeing how you have, sort of

1068
01:05:09,545 --> 01:05:16,640
negotiated 
 between sort of 
the, like, core aspects of of 
 

1069
01:05:16,648 --> 01:05:23,089
of of your thesis and and 
ideology around 
 leadership and

1070
01:05:23,089 --> 01:05:27,620
where you're very compelled to 
adapt. 

1071
01:05:27,735 --> 01:05:33,895
And, given the vast 
 knowledge 
and wisdom and experiences that 

1072
01:05:33,895 --> 01:05:40,862
you have 
 over the last half 
century, to be still a learner 

1073
01:05:40,862 --> 01:05:46,286
is inspiring to me, but also 
 
speaks to your humility, which 

1074
01:05:46,286 --> 01:05:51,130
is one of those 
 five core core
leadership capabilities. 

1075
01:05:51,130 --> 01:05:56,955
I guess, you know, Peter, when I
think of you, you know, 
 I 

1076
01:05:56,955 --> 01:05:59,841
think of so many things, and 
there you have 
 so many 

1077
01:05:59,841 --> 01:06:01,915
concepts. 
PCAM, SIGVAM, conventional 
 

1078
01:06:01,923 --> 01:06:03,715
management, enlightened 
leadership. 

1079
01:06:03,715 --> 01:06:07,200
Enlightened leadership 
 is 
really you know, if if you say 

1080
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:08,355
what's, 
 like, the the 
buzzword? 

1081
01:06:08,355 --> 01:06:10,390
What's what do you 
 know Peter 
for? 

1082
01:06:10,390 --> 01:06:14,310
Enlightened leadership is what 

what comes to mind For me. 

1083
01:06:14,310 --> 01:06:21,646
And, you know, I 
 guess, you 
know, as we kind of wrap on this

1084
01:06:21,646 --> 01:06:27,825
podcast episode, what is one 
practical 
 piece of advice you 

1085
01:06:27,825 --> 01:06:31,460
would give to our listeners? 
You know, we've got 
 a lot of 

1086
01:06:31,460 --> 01:06:36,241
leaders, scholars of leadership,
emerging 
 leaders who who watch

1087
01:06:36,241 --> 01:06:41,233
this podcast. 
What should they 
 be doing on 

1088
01:06:41,233 --> 01:06:44,890
Monday? 
Well, I mean, the the one of the

1089
01:06:44,890 --> 01:06:50,198
things is to have a 
 very clear
idea of what management is and 


1090
01:06:50,206 --> 01:06:52,225
what leadership is. 
The distinction. 

1091
01:06:52,225 --> 01:06:56,305
That distinction. 
When you have that distinction, 

1092
01:06:56,305 --> 01:06:59,945
is it comes back to the 
 
metaphor of driving the car. 

1093
01:07:00,465 --> 01:07:03,505
You can do amazing things with 

the car when you can use the 

1094
01:07:03,505 --> 01:07:05,570
brake and you can 
 use the 
accelerator. 

1095
01:07:05,570 --> 01:07:09,650
You can get it to perform in 
 
the way that you want it to. 

1096
01:07:09,650 --> 01:07:12,450
When you clearly understand 
 
what management is and what 

1097
01:07:12,450 --> 01:07:16,370
leadership is, then you have 
 
that possibility as well. 

1098
01:07:16,370 --> 01:07:20,066
You know when to apply 
leadership 
 and when to apply 

1099
01:07:20,066 --> 01:07:22,295
management. 
One of the things that caused 
 

1100
01:07:22,303 --> 01:07:27,255
me to write the book is I 
constantly saw would 
 hear that

1101
01:07:27,255 --> 01:07:33,492
management was a very concrete 
thing, but leadership was very 

1102
01:07:33,492 --> 01:07:34,820
soft. 
Yes. 

1103
01:07:34,820 --> 01:07:36,740
You know? 
And I don't 
 see it that way. 

1104
01:07:36,740 --> 01:07:40,334
I mean, to me, leadership is 
just 
 as concrete as management

1105
01:07:40,334 --> 01:07:43,065
is. 
And until we get people to 
 

1106
01:07:43,073 --> 01:07:47,340
understand leadership is is a 
vital concrete 
 thing as much 

1107
01:07:47,340 --> 01:07:51,785
as management is, and that we 
 
have these two capabilities. 

1108
01:07:51,785 --> 01:07:55,865
And if we can use 
 those in the
right way, I believe we could be

1109
01:07:55,865 --> 01:07:58,820

 much more successful. 
My feeling is even if we had 
 

1110
01:07:58,828 --> 01:08:03,120
learned to do these things, we 
may not have even needed AI. 

1111
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:08,275
But we're we're 
 AI has come 
along because organizations 

1112
01:08:08,275 --> 01:08:12,520
don't 
 think they're getting 
the performance they want. 

1113
01:08:13,185 --> 01:08:17,880
Fascinating. 
So they've so AI 
 has become a 

1114
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:24,283
tool because because I believe 

so many executives find it 

1115
01:08:24,283 --> 01:08:26,425
frustrating 
 to work with 
people. 

1116
01:08:27,220 --> 01:08:28,819
That's fascinating. 
Yeah. 

1117
01:08:28,819 --> 01:08:31,555
I am. 
And so something like 
 AI to 

1118
01:08:31,555 --> 01:08:36,268
them is a godsend that they can 
use this to deal 
 with this 

1119
01:08:36,268 --> 01:08:41,019
awkward character called people.
And but on the other hand, if 

1120
01:08:41,019 --> 01:08:45,825
you can lead 
 people correctly,
they they are a 
 wonderful 

1121
01:08:45,825 --> 01:08:47,865
resource. 
They are a marvelous resource. 

1122
01:08:47,865 --> 01:08:51,944
They can do incredible things if

 you give them the opportunity.

1123
01:08:51,944 --> 01:08:55,764
Peter, that is a big thought. 
I I mean, you know how much 
 of

1124
01:08:55,764 --> 01:08:58,380
a proponent I am of AI. 
So now I have to think I 
 have 

1125
01:08:58,380 --> 01:09:01,500
to sleep on this one. 
I can't agree with you outright,

1126
01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:06,683
but it is a big thought, this 
idea that AI 
 in some ways is 

1127
01:09:06,683 --> 01:09:11,425
like it compensates for the 
 
inadequacy Lack of leadership. 

1128
01:09:11,425 --> 01:09:15,020
Of leadership. 
I gotta I gotta I gotta you 
 

1129
01:09:15,028 --> 01:09:19,104
know, that's like, you know, a a
smoke a cigar, walk around 
 the

1130
01:09:19,104 --> 01:09:22,904
block kind of Right. 
Big deep thinking Yeah. 

1131
01:09:23,104 --> 01:09:25,545
Idea there. 
That's 
 that's really 

1132
01:09:25,545 --> 01:09:26,520
interesting. 
Yeah. 

1133
01:09:27,439 --> 01:09:28,800
Wow. 
Okay. 

1134
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:35,152
Well, I just wanna thank you so 
much, 
 Peter, for for being 

1135
01:09:35,152 --> 01:09:38,755
here, for coming out to 
Philadelphia, to join us on a 

1136
01:09:38,755 --> 01:09:41,765
podcast 
 about leadership. 
I'm excited for the world. 

1137
01:09:41,765 --> 01:09:45,697
I'm excited for 
 myself, 
selfishly, to get my hands on 

1138
01:09:45,697 --> 01:09:49,930
the book, and to continue in the
lifelong 
 pursuit of 

1139
01:09:49,930 --> 01:09:50,950
effectiveness. 
Yeah. 

1140
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:57,398
Which is, as I like 
 to say, 
it's a muscle, and you stop 

1141
01:09:57,398 --> 01:10:00,510
going to the 
 gym, that muscle 
goes away. 

1142
01:10:00,710 --> 01:10:04,090
Very good metaphor. 
So so I'm I'm looking forward 
 

1143
01:10:04,098 --> 01:10:07,305
to to having your book in my 
hands Right. 

1144
01:10:07,305 --> 01:10:09,065
As soon as possible. 
Right. 

1145
01:10:09,065 --> 01:10:14,216
So thank you so 
 much again, 
Peter, and thank you everybody 

1146
01:10:14,216 --> 01:10:19,825
for 
 for enjoy for joining us 
on this incredibly engaging, 

1147
01:10:20,930 --> 01:10:25,856
thought provoking session 
 on a
podcast about leadership, and 

1148
01:10:25,856 --> 01:10:28,810
we'll look 
 forward to our next
time.