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Hello, I'm Jonathan Kirschner, 
Founder and CEO of Air 

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Consulting. 
This is a podcast about 

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leadership. 
I've been looking forward to 

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this podcast for about 6 months.
We have with us Doctor Michael 

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Platt. 
I'll just start with a few small

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things Michael's up to. 
So Michael is a professor in 

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three schools at the University 
of Pennsylvania, the School of 

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Medicine, Wharton, obviously, 
and the School of Arts and 

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Sciences. 
What not everyone knows is that 

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Michael is also a founder and 
entrepreneur, A venture 

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capitalist, now father, sports 
enthusiast, fitness enthusiast, 

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researcher of many things, 
including monkeys, which we'll 

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get into. 
And, and really I'll just say 

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like a very important person in 
my life, somebody who has taken 

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a my interest in neuroscience 
and psychology and deepened it 

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in such a incredible way. 
And so I thank you for that 

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inspiration and for all the 
influence you've had on my own 

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thinking, Michael. 
Well, Jonathan, it's great to be

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here. 
I consider you a good friend as 

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well as a colleague. 
I think we've probably known 

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each other for all going on 10 
years. 

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Not quite. 
It's it's feeling like we're 

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rubbing up on a decade. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
And, and AIR Consulting is, has 

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been, I think the oldest 
continuous partner of Wharton 

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Neuroscience, the Wharton 
Neuroscience Initiative that I 

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found it indirect. 
And so we've had these amazing 

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continuing interactions and, 
and, and you and your company 

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has shaped a lot of our 
thinking. 

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A lot of what we do is we've 
moved more and more into 

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leadership and, and HR and 
management, you know, kind of, 

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you know, expanding the scope of
the application of neuroscience 

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across business. 
Well, it's a, it's an amazing 

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opportunity to dive deep into 
some of these like incredible 

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topics of neuroscience and 
leadership. 

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Maybe we could just start. 
Michael, can you give us like, 

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how in the heck did you arrive 
at this place? 

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Like why neuroscience? 
Bring us on the journey of like 

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how you got here. 
Well, you know, that when I was 

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10, I, I thought, I want to be, 
you know, a professor in three 

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schools. 
No, I didn't. 

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No, I, I, it's a, it's a miracle
that I'm here. 

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I mean, I think it's, it's 
really quite extraordinary. 

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And, you know, I do think it's 
the, you know, the kind of thing

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that, you know, happens here, 
you know, in America that, you 

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know, I, I see, you know, the 
promise that each and every 

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individual can, you know, be, 
you know, who they want to be 

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and who they can be if they work
hard enough. 

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But, you know, so I grew up 
working class, You know, my dad 

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was a mechanic. 
My mom drove a school bus. 

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Her parents were, you know, 
grocers and her brothers were 

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grocers. 
So, so working class family. 

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I was the first kid to go to 
College in the very large 

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extended family. 
Wow. 

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I won the lottery and went to 
Yale, remarkably enough. 

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I mean, I was an athlete. 
I was, and I guess that helped, 

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went to Yale and the 
expectation. 

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What did you play with? 
With your football. 

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Football, I mean, I played 
baseball and I I wrestled some, 

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but but football was my. 
The most friendly game to the 

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brain. 
Well, that's why I ended up out 

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of football because I'd had so 
many concussions. 

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And you know, when I was a kid, 
that was just called getting 

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your bell rung, you know, and, 
and like literally, you know, 

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by, you know, your parents would
laugh. 

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Oh, you got your bell rung. 
So, but you know, when I got the

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call, I ended up, you know, I 
was supposed to play for Yale 

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and then I, I go to practices 
and then they're fitting me for 

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a helmet and they'd say, how 
many concussions have you had? 

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And well, what's a concussion? 
Well, did you ever had your bell

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rung knocked out on the field? 
And when I told them, they said,

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well, no, you, you're not 
playing anymore. 

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So that was a disappointment for
me. 

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Then I ended up getting many 
more concussions after that, but

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that's another story. 
But anyway, so I go to Yale and 

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you know, I first Gen. college 
kids. 

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So the expectation was you're 
going to do something practical.

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So become an engineer or, you 
know, go go into medicine. 

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And I took an anthropology class
freshman year, first semester, 

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and I just fell in love with it.
I realized that, wow, this, this

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field which is really broad, 
it's the broadest lens through 

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which you could try to 
understand human nature. 

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Study of people people but. 
But in in, you know, the 

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richness of not just culture, 
but and, and language and 

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linguistics, but really 
importantly for me, biology and 

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our, our biological heritage. 
So, you know, paleoanthropology 

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and also understanding the 
nature of our closest living 

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relatives, which figures in, you
know, my life very heavily 

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primates. 
And so so I end up becoming an 

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anthropology major, really just 
digging into that. 

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And between junior and senior 
year of college, I won a 

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scholarship in essence from 
National Science Foundation to 

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go on a field expedition, which 
was in southern Mexico in the 

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jungle with a bunch of other 
college students to study 

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macaques. 
We're living on an island and, 

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and it was really an 
extraordinary experience. 

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And I met the woman who had 
later become my wife and. 

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Also, she was also on that same 
she was. 

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Also on that expedition. 
So. 

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So we met then. 
So that was a long time ago. 

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That was 19 88 actually way are 
you you might not alive. 

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But I'm like collecting 
baseball. 

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Cards. 
Yeah. 

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So it was, it was quite an 
extraordinary, you know, when, 

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when you're out there in the 
middle of nowhere, you know, 

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it's like, you know, what kind 
of magic can happen. 

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So, you know, after that, I was,
you know, senior year, I was 

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like, oh, you're supposed to 
start looking for a job. 

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And then I learned, wow, you can
actually get a PhD in this same 

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field. 
And, you know, if you're lucky 

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enough, you can win 
scholarships, etcetera, to pay 

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for it. 
And so I did not want to go to 

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work. 
In fact, my dad said, you know, 

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because he had, you know, he'd 
been under the hood of a car 

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for, you know, since he was 17, 
basically. 

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And he said, you know, don't 
start working until you 

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absolutely have to because 
you'll be working the rest of 

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your life. 
So if you have an opportunity to

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study, keep studying. 
And so I said that that's really

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good advice. 
So I came here to Penn to do my 

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PhD in anthropology to work with
just amazing mentors, Robert 

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Seyfarth and Dorothy Cheney, who
are lifelong mentors. 

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They were famous for really 
developing sophisticated ways to

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understand what monkeys know 
about their worlds, in 

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particular their social worlds. 
And so, so I came here, I did 

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some field work in Venezuela and
and then eventually did my 

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thesis in a lab because I needed
to bring in some control to the 

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work I was doing, trying to 
understand how a different 

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species of monkeys represent 
their environment. 

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So what they know about where 
food is and how long they can 

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remember that and things like 
that. 

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So OK, so long story. 
Not really. 

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It is a long story. 
But as I was doing that, I 

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realized, you know, if I really 
want to understand human nature,

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I have to go to the brain. 
This is insufficient. 

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I'm making inferences about 
what's happening in the brain 

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based on behavior, but it's not 
enough. 

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So I just made this crazy career
move to I went to NYU to do a 

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postdoctoral fellowship in 
neuroscience. 

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And that was before neuroscience
was cool. 

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It was starting to become kind 
of cool. 

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So, but it was quite a, you can 
imagine somebody who'd done 

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field work and, you know, had 
this was like a new level of 

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challenge. 
You know, I had to take the 

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first year PhD curriculum in 
neuroscience so I could actually

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learn something about the brain 
while simultaneously setting up 

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the lab. 
It was a new lab. 

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My mentor Paul Glimcher was, you
know, was really profoundly 

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important in my life and I knew 
nothing about neuroscience. 

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And So what was interesting is 
that I came there at the 

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promise. 
We had a pact that basically I 

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would be able to do the 
experiment that I finally just 

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published a year and a half ago,
you know, some like almost 30 

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years later, but but it was 
like, I want to understand how 

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the brain actually makes sense 
of our social worlds. 

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And so I want to be able to 
record from neurons across the 

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brain, you know, in that are 
involved in in encoding 

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information about others and 
understanding the meaning of 

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their behavior. 
And then, you know, planning, 

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you know, making decisions and, 
and acting accordingly, 

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appropriately, adaptively. 
But, and he said, yes, but first

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you have to learn neuroscience. 
And so you're going to do this 

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really boring stuff for like 3 
years, which was true. 

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I had to study eye movements. 
And you know, because it's a 

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really simple system and we knew
a lot. 

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We had a really good sketch of 
the how the visual system works 

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and also a really good sketch of
how the output of moving your 

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eyes works because it's a really
simple, it's just, you know, 

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there's, there's six muscles and
that's it. 

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Unlike, you know, your arm, 
which is super complicated. 

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So I did that and while I'm 
doing it, I'm, you know, I'm 

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like super bored and, but doing 
neuroscience, which was awesome.

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But I, I was thinking, you know,
what I want to study is decision

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making. 
People are starting to study 

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decision making in neuroscience,
but the decisions they're 

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studying and this is still 
really important work are what 

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seemed to me not the most 
important decisions. 

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So like, is the light bright or 
dim? 

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Is the, is it, you know, red or 
green that's important when 

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you're coming up to traffic 
light? 

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But in general, it's like, it's 
really the decisions that matter

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to us are the ones that are the 
ones about things we value, 

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right? 
And anything from like eat the 

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apple or the doughnut to, you 
know, who do you, do you marry 

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this person or you, you know, 
you, you continue shopping, you 

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know, you put your money in 
stocks or bonds. 

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And that had not really been 
considered at all in 

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neuroscience. 
And so I was sort of ignorant 

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enough to say, well, we why 
don't we go to the people who've

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really kind of figured out on 
the on the outside, like the 

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math, you know, around that. 
That's economics basically. 

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And so I said, well, why don't 
we study how value, right and 

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utility are, are computed in the
brain and are you, you know, and

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then shaped the decisions that 
we make. 

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And so that was, you know, it by
some measures of paper we 

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published in Nature in 1999, it 
was considered the 1st paper in 

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the field of neuroeconomics. 
There were, there was other work

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absolutely critically important,
but that was sort of the 

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beginnings of that. 
And then you see like over the 

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next like the, the mentions of 
the word value or even reward or

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decision were basically almost 
zero in neuroscience. 

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And then it came exponentially. 
So, so then, and it was 

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interesting because, you know, 
at that time we couldn't get 

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funded for it. 
You know, everybody thought, 

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well, this is really out there, 
this is crazy. 

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Once you do something that's, 
you know, a little bit more 

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incremental. 
But we, you know, we publish 

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that paper. 
And so then I go on the job 

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market kind of softly and you 
know, probably, you know, apply 

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for 100 jobs, who knows? 
But I got one job offer. 

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Turns out you only need one. 
You just got to make the best of

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it. 
And it was a great place. 

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So I went to Duke, joined the 
neurobiology department, which 

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was in the School of Medicine, 
which is also a new adventure 

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for me because now my job was to
also to think about clinical 

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conditions. 
I had to teach clinical 

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neuroanatomy to 1st year medical
students. 

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I've never done that before. 
I ended up running the first 

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year medical school course in 
neuroscience, you know, after a 

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few years. 
And but that was also really 

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important for me because I had 
never really thought about the, 

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you know, the the sort of human 
health side of, of neuroscience 

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and and brain function and 
dysfunction. 

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And that has carried, you know, 
through with me to today as 

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00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,560
well. 
You know, so OK, so I was at 

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Duke for a while. 
I, I had a taste for building 

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00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,920
things I didn't know that I did.
So I started Co founded the 

228
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:14,000
Center for Neuroeconomics at 
Duke and then became director of

229
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,640
the Center for Cognitive 
Neuroscience, which was an 

230
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,400
interdisciplinary interschool 
kind of department. 

231
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,800
And then ultimately ended up 
directing the Institute for 

232
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:32,560
Brain Sciences, which was Duke's
way of doing interdisciplinary 

233
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:35,160
scholarship. 
So these institutes were ways to

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get resources into the hands of 
kind of people who knew the 

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00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,920
local, you know, the, the, the 
local community and could put 

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people together in interesting 
ways. 

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00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:49,200
So it was a joint project of the
medical school and, and the rest

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00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,880
of the university. 
And my job was not only to 

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00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,280
connect the neuroscientists who 
were across schools to each 

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00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,040
other, but also to outward to 
everything else. 

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00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,440
And that was what was really 
exciting because, you know, now 

242
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,400
we're bringing neuroscience into
contact with business, law, 

243
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:09,560
humanities, arts, started a 
Center for neurohumanities there

244
00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:12,080
also. 
So, so then that starts to get 

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00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,200
really interesting, you know, 
and I'm not, we weren't telling 

246
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,680
them like, oh, we're going to 
solve all your issues, but no, 

247
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:21,360
let's have a dialogue because we
are all wrestling with the same 

248
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,040
thing, right? 
Which is human nature. 

249
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,720
And you know, they're just 
different ways that neuroscience

250
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,480
can be helpful, I think in all 
those domains. 

251
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,440
So that that kind of put me then
on the path to where I am now. 

252
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,120
And, you know, I'd like to build
things back then. 

253
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,240
And I was starting to kind of be
like, I don't know, people are 

254
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,040
thinking, oh, maybe you'll be a 
Dean or something. 

255
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,920
And then I got this amazing call
from Penn. 

256
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,560
You know, it was, you know, 
president calls me up and says, 

257
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,120
you know, I want to give you 
your dream job. 

258
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,160
What would it take? 
And, and I said, well, you know,

259
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,360
and they said, we see, we have 
this vision of you not only in 

260
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:01,560
the medical school, but at 
Wharton. 

261
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,600
And I'm like, wow, that's, 
that's a signal, right, that 

262
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,560
the, you know, the School of 
Business believes that the 

263
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:13,760
future of business education 
practice, a big part of that is 

264
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,280
going to be neuroscience, right?
And so I said, yeah, I'll do 

265
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:18,280
that. 
But I also need to be in 

266
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,000
psychology too. 
So three times the faculty 

267
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,920
meetings, but that was. 
So I came here and then, you 

268
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,680
know, started this, this this 
center in essence, which is 

269
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,920
Wharton Neuroscience Initiative.
And our mission is really to to 

270
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,160
use the insights that 
technology, you know, the the 

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00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,560
analytics of neuroscience and 
apply that to all things 

272
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:42,800
business. 
So you can think about it just 

273
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,240
like making business more 
efficient, effective and humane.

274
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,640
And really it's about 
performance. 

275
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,480
So how can we help you and you 
and you, you know, reach your 

276
00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,120
full potential And how can we 
help teams to do that? 

277
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,040
How can we help businesses to do
that? 

278
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,800
How can we help society to do 
that? 

279
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,040
And that's, I think really kind 
of the thread that runs through 

280
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,800
all of that. 
And I think that we have over 

281
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,560
the last not quite 10 years 
shown that that's possible. 

282
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,120
That's incredible. 
Wow, that's a that's a hell of a

283
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,280
journey. 
So from from football to 

284
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:22,520
anthropology to early days 
neuroscience at NYU, did your 

285
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,240
time doing some brain tracking, 
you know, getting the 

286
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,440
foundations of the brain and 
then getting into decision 

287
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:36,480
making their economics monkeys, 
I guess have been a through 

288
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:37,800
thread. 
Absolutely. 

289
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,640
But you know, you did just write
up when you wrote this book. 

290
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,880
This is now the updated version 
the leader's brain. 

291
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,040
And I I note the word leader. 
You've been really interested in

292
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:56,080
leadership in particular. 
And so I a curiosity around 

293
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,240
that, like what? 
What's so compelling about that 

294
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:05,960
specific lane among the field of
lanes that you could choose? 

295
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,480
Well, I think we've all had the 
experience of, you know, good 

296
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,640
leaders and bad leaders and the 
leaders make a difference in our

297
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,839
lives. 
You know, this is this is 

298
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:19,520
something that we, I don't know 
that I would say that monkeys 

299
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,880
have leaders per SE, but 
they're, you know, there's sort 

300
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:28,760
of a distribution of power that,
you know, influences their 

301
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,480
societies. 
And, you know, ours is a little 

302
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,280
bit different, but think about 
it this way. 

303
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,320
And I think that's why, you 
know, in this book, I think is 

304
00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,200
interesting because I added a 
new chapter as well as a lot of 

305
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,480
other stuff. 
But leading in the age of AI and

306
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,640
think about it this way, you 
know, technology is 

307
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,680
accelerating, human evolution is
not. 

308
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,280
So leadership, I believe can and
should close that gap, right? 

309
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:54,280
So. 
OK. 

310
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,880
It's, you know, incumbent upon 
leaders to help people to 

311
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,600
especially right now navigate 
the uncertainty, the the 

312
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,440
volatility, the the onslaught of
information and disinformation 

313
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:13,520
and misinformation, the anxiety 
that comes along with that. 

314
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:19,200
As you know, as if we kind of 
confront a a pace of change and 

315
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,480
magnitude of change that really 
is not that we're not wired. 

316
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,720
So the technology is 
accelerating at a pace that that

317
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:33,120
far exceeds the evolutionary 
movement of. 

318
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,200
Yeah. 
So let me put it even more 

319
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,920
concretely. 
This thing up here right is 

320
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,640
hasn't changed in 200,000 years.
Well, not even incrementally. 

321
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:49,240
My very basically no so and in 
fact it has changed very little 

322
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,280
in 35,000,000 years and and 
maybe even more than that. 

323
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,560
So that's, we last shared a 
common ancestor with, you know, 

324
00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,280
monkeys was around then. 
And yeah, I half my time I study

325
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:03,240
monkeys and, and how the monkey 
brain works because it's a, you 

326
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,680
know, it's a microcosm, if you 
will, for for our own brains, we

327
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,800
have all the same brain areas 
wired up in same way doing the 

328
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,120
same stuff. 
But for the most part, it 

329
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:12,880
hasn't. 
No, it's remained 3. 1000 years 

330
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:17,320
in our species Homo sapiens 
sapiens appeared on this planet,

331
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,160
which we generally believe is 
around 200,000 years ago. 

332
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,760
With full blown language most 
likely. 

333
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,760
Yeah, it's not really changed. 
At all? 

334
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,280
Maybe some regions are like 
slightly bigger, slightly 

335
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,960
smaller. 
You know, I, I, it, that would 

336
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:38,000
be hard to know because we, you 
know, the traditional way of 

337
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,600
doing that would be to look at 
what are called endocasts, which

338
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,200
is kind of the, you find an old 
skull and then you can, you 

339
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,640
know, mold, make a mold on the 
inside. 

340
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,280
But that's just going to show 
you where some of the bigger 

341
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,360
bumps and grooves are not 
something that's very, very 

342
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,320
specific. 
And so there may be so that, you

343
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,360
know, in terms of evolution, 
right, there would have to be 

344
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:07,480
changes in the brain even at a 
microstructural level or circuit

345
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,840
level that are heritable. 
They have a genetic component 

346
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,840
and that would differential 
differentially affect the 

347
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,800
representation in subsequent 
generations, right. 

348
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,080
So if it's something that helped
you to do a little bit better 

349
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,400
than your competitor. 
And there was a genetic 

350
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,120
component to that then, and you 
had more offspring than they did

351
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,440
then, you know, then down and 
that's down. 

352
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,720
That's how evolution works. 
So I don't know that we have any

353
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,160
real evidence for that. 
And, you know, it's, it, it's a 

354
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,200
really short period of time for,
you know, for evolution to have 

355
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,080
occurred, although, you know, 
there are, you know, there are 

356
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:52,840
various traits that have 
changed, you know, in a really 

357
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:58,000
short period of time, like 
lactose tolerance in adulthood, 

358
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:04,000
you know, is, is really found in
people from Northern Europe, 

359
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,480
right, where daring cultures 
first emerged. 

360
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,720
But otherwise, you know, not. 
And that's, that's, that's about

361
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,480
8000 years, maybe tops. 
So, you know, but that's a, 

362
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,080
that's a minor. 
That's minor. 

363
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,160
It's not like structural brain, 
right? 

364
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,080
Evolution, right? 
And I think that what's been 

365
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,840
much more profound, and this is 
kind of very obvious, I think, 

366
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:32,080
is that culture, once it emerged
of our sort of human culture, 

367
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,320
you know, aided by language in 
terms of transmission, operates 

368
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,040
so much more rapidly than 
biological evolution. 

369
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,560
So you get cultural change, 
changes in technology going from

370
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:47,640
stone tools, going from really 
rather crude stone tools to, and

371
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,200
just a few to a profusion of, 
you know, even, even, you know, 

372
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,920
I'm talking about 30,000 years 
ago or so where suddenly, you 

373
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,080
know, people are making, you 
know, arrows and, and fish hooks

374
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,040
and all kinds of things where 
you know, up till then for a 

375
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,600
million years, we basically had 
one major, well, like an 

376
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,320
Australian hand axe, you know, 
beautiful, symmetric. 

377
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,160
That was it. 
Pretty much it. 

378
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,720
I mean you'd have some choppers 
and things, but that was it. 

379
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,640
And that was actually, I love 
this example because this hand 

380
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,040
axe, which started out 
relatively crude when they first

381
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,880
appeared and you know, by the 
time a million years later, they

382
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,920
were really refined, really 
quite beautiful, stunning. 

383
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,000
And it what's amazing is like 
everybody had one, you know, 

384
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,280
it's like it was like the 
iPhone. 

385
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,240
It was sort of a status symbol. 
They were beautiful and elegant 

386
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:36,320
and use it to a whole bunch of 
different things. 

387
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,680
People did put like they 
embellish it it would and and 

388
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,240
make up their own. 
Yeah, I mean, and then and 

389
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,960
people be buried, you know, 
when, When? 

390
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,560
There's yeah, there's dumbass. 
Yeah, exactly. 

391
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,280
So it's kind of a. 
So cool, but there's a turning 

392
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,840
point in which somebody figured 
out what we can make. 

393
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,320
And just suddenly make all kinds
an arrow. 

394
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,440
Yeah, all kinds of things. 
We have no idea how or why. 

395
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,560
You know, it's fast happening. 
And we're learning more and more

396
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,320
from from the archaeology. 
That's fascinating. 

397
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,040
It's subject to what's 
preserved, which is, which is 

398
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:09,560
you. 
Know, but it's a good example of

399
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,080
I mean in, in in some ways right
now, you know, we see, you know,

400
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,560
very we see these inflection 
points in time where there's 

401
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,040
incremental changes that there's
there's times of of total 

402
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:29,880
stable, you know, you know, 
stasis in, in some in something 

403
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,920
regards with regard to 
innovation and then something 

404
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,400
just like happens and there's 
just this like. 

405
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,920
Boom. 
Of innovation like we're in that

406
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,240
right now with AI obviously, 
right? 

407
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,960
And then that would have been, 
you know, analogous, that would 

408
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,400
have been a time analogous to 
what we are experiencing now in 

409
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,400
theory. 
But to your point, the brain is 

410
00:23:54,400 --> 00:24:00,560
relatively stable over the 
200,000 years or so, or 200,000.

411
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,520
Let's just say 200. 1000 let's 
say 200,000 years, whereas the 

412
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,440
sort of evolution of culture and
technology. 

413
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,320
Yeah, you can see it. 
I mean it is and it's 

414
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,720
cumulative, right. 
So what you know, the 

415
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,360
technological innovations of, 
you know, your parents or 

416
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,360
whatever, you get to have them 
right away and then you can 

417
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:27,600
amplify and embellish and create
and innovate from that. 

418
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,040
So you can see that that is, you
know, kind of a flywheel ratchet

419
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,880
effect, incredible, you know, as
we could, you know, you see 

420
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,000
these major inflection points as
you were saying. 

421
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,080
So people settling down, you 
know, staying in one place, 

422
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,560
developing agriculture, you 
know, different kinds of 

423
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,560
materials going from, you know, 
bronze to steel, etcetera. 

424
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,800
And then you know, of course, 
the, you know, the industrial 

425
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,600
revolution, which is what a lot 
of people are comparing AI to. 

426
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,920
I think it's far beyond that, 
but, you know, it remains to be 

427
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,680
seen. 
So leadership is the IT, it's, 

428
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,840
that's the the thing. 
What do we, you know what? 

429
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,480
I'll refer to it as the variable
that bridges the gap. 

430
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,280
I'm I'm arguing that it has to 
be it. 

431
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,400
Has to be it has to be. 
It doesn't just happen right it.

432
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,320
Leadership, whether it happens, 
I mean, it's a really 

433
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,680
interesting question. 
I mean, there is a thing, you 

434
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,720
know, called emergent leadership
that just an individual, other 

435
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,560
people around them like like 
somebody just steps up. 

436
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,160
So, yeah, somebody steps up or 
somebody is sort of volunteered 

437
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,600
because, and we don't really 
understand how this works that 

438
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,160
kind of collectively or 
individually people see 

439
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,120
something. 
And that's, that's one reason 

440
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:44,080
why I'm also interested. 
There's another, you know, older

441
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,960
reason to me or you know, 
earlier reason to me why my 

442
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,120
interest in leadership is that 
kind of ineffable quality. 

443
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,240
You know, when you, you 
recognize somebody who's a 

444
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,240
leader, even if you know, even 
if they're quiet, there's 

445
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,400
somebody's got something right? 
It's. 

446
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,560
Like an X Factor. 
It's an X Factor. 

447
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,560
I mean, that's like charisma, 
for example, which I've always 

448
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,240
been fascinated by, which is a a
component is often something 

449
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,400
that helps someone be a really 
great leader because it's that 

450
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,560
what is it? 
It's presence. 

451
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,200
It's these are all words that we
don't really understand 

452
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,160
biologically what they mean, but
but they've got presence. 

453
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:32,760
They people respect them, people
follow them and for good or bad 

454
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,160
rights, people have for his 
qualities. 

455
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,080
And it's anyway. 
So in this book, you know, it's 

456
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,760
a distillation of a number of I 
don't think it's comprehensive, 

457
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,120
but but focusing on what I 
consider to be some key elements

458
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,760
of leadership. 
Importantly, perhaps most 

459
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,880
importantly, sort of leading 
with the social brain. 

460
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,680
And then that has been a focus 
of my work for decades. 

461
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,480
Yeah. 
So social brain, I think more 

462
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,160
critical now than ever. 
You know, it's a foundation of 

463
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,160
a, a healthy, you know, mentally
healthy life. 

464
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,320
So you, you creating the 
conditions in a culture, which 

465
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,120
you know, you've done at air, 
you know, a great leader, you 

466
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:26,120
know it, it starts at the top 
and you create a, a culture and 

467
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:31,360
you also model behavior that you
know, that's, that's open and, 

468
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:36,840
and empathetic and a clear 
communicator, somebody who can 

469
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,960
take the perspective of others 
and then create a, a, a culture 

470
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:48,680
conditions where that is broadly
valued, right? 

471
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,080
And, and it's that that's the, 
you know, so that people really 

472
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,760
can work together and achieve 
more than they could achieve on 

473
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,960
their own. 
And so I think that that's the 

474
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,760
foundation. 
That's a big foundation for 

475
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,600
leadership. 
And it's what I think 

476
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,400
characterizes or distinguishes, 
you know, really good 

477
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,200
organizations, effective 
organizations from those that 

478
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,880
and that's, you know, we can 
talk about sports and how I 

479
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,840
think that that is. 
AI would, I mean, I, I 

480
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,920
definitely want to dig into. 
I'm very interested in like team

481
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,400
effectiveness and like, why does
some teams like you could have a

482
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,200
team that you know, is composed 
of, of All Star individuals and 

483
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,120
they totally fail. 
And you could have a team 

484
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,280
composed of like some All Stars,
some mediocre, some even poor 

485
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,240
performers and somehow that team
comes together and wins. 

486
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,080
I'm very curious about that. 
But what? 

487
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,880
Just stepping back for a moment,
define like social brain like, 

488
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,880
why is that? 
What is it and why is it so 

489
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,720
important? 
So, yeah, so one thing I want to

490
00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,280
kind of just dispel any notions 
of our brains being computers. 

491
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,640
They're really not computers, 
although we're we're seeing that

492
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,080
there's some interesting 
parallels between, you know, AI,

493
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,800
you know, large language models 
and the way that brains seem to.

494
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,000
It would be easy to to come to 
that conclusion because you 

495
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,160
because you the computer has 
memory and processing and it 

496
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,760
pumps out an output so so true 
to the brain. 

497
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,400
People have talked about brains 
using a metaphor for a long 

498
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,480
time. 
OK, it's the the hardware and 

499
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,000
then you you know language based
so. 

500
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,000
Why are we not? 
It's much more like a Swiss army

501
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:28,040
knife is. 
OK. 

502
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,440
So you have more specific tools 
that do specific jobs. 

503
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,080
So you'll have a knife and a 
nail file, a Corkscrew, which is

504
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,640
really important to me. 
So, and honestly, those, those 

505
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,800
tools in the Swiss Army knife 
have been around for 35,000,000 

506
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,800
years at at least. 
And you know, so there are the 

507
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,440
ones in humans are going to be a
little bit bigger or sharper 

508
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,360
compared to the ones in monkeys,
for example. 

509
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:58,000
And the social brain or social 
brain network is one of those 

510
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,360
tools. 
So it turns out, and this is a 

511
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,680
real discovery of the last maybe
15 years might be going on more,

512
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,160
but a real discovery in 
neuroscience, which is that 

513
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,320
there is this system in our 
heads for that, that his job is 

514
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,640
basically to manage our 
interactions with other people 

515
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,240
as well as our long term 
relationship. 

516
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:22,680
So it's this, this network that 
you know, when you are basically

517
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,120
what it does is, you know, is 
when you walk into a room or 

518
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,840
when I, you know, walked in here
before and I saw you. 

519
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,560
What happens is the, the 
pixelated data that's coming in 

520
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,720
through my eyes from my retina 
and use the whole scene gets 

521
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,760
broken down into pixels. 
It gets reassembled in the back 

522
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,280
of your head. 
And then that information kind 

523
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,000
of flows forward. 
And the first step in the social

524
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,680
brain network is just 
identifying, you know, creating 

525
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,880
an image and identifying there's
a person there, right? 

526
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,640
I mean, there's a human there. 
Jonathan. 

527
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:51,480
Jonathan. 
And there's. 

528
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,520
Oh, it's familiar. 
I can give Jonathan a hug. 

529
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,080
Exactly. 
That's exactly. 

530
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,520
What so, So yeah, who are they? 
Familiar, unfamiliar. 

531
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,400
And that information flows 
forward in the social brain 

532
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,400
network being informed by, you 
know, your, if you do know that 

533
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,360
person by previous interactions 
with them or maybe information 

534
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,880
about reputation, etcetera. 
So we're dipping into the 

535
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,880
hippocampus. 
Well, right, your memory bank. 

536
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,800
Plays a role. 
I mean that's not where memories

537
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,040
live. 
Oh, interesting that that's sort

538
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,640
of the, the that's, that's the 
thing that like takes the 

539
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,240
information that is going to get
stored and then it it puts it 

540
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,480
elsewhere in the brain. 
So. 

541
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,720
Where does it go? 
Well, it kind of goes all over. 

542
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,600
All over for some memories. 
Yeah. 

543
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,400
It's distributed in basically in
the parts of the brain that 

544
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,480
would process in the 1st place 
if it's so like so-called face 

545
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,160
cortex or parts of the part of 
the social brain is where 

546
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,720
information about that is stored
about other people, like what 

547
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,600
they look like. 
So this anyway, this social 

548
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,560
brain network as the 
information's coming in and 

549
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,800
there's, you know, information 
about what you're hearing, you 

550
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,960
know, maybe touch, smell. 
And so it's, it kind of breaks 

551
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,640
into two pathways and 1 is a 
little bit, you can think of it 

552
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,440
as being a little bit that's 
just a little bit lower in the 

553
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,720
brain and it and it's going to 
go to more emotional centers of 

554
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,720
the social brain network. 
So that are involved in decoding

555
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,720
what another individual's 
experiencing based on what non 

556
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,760
verbal cues. 
So facial expressions, posture, 

557
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,960
tone of voice, all those kinds 
of things. 

558
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,240
You know, we have these dozens 
of muscles of facial expression 

559
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,120
and the only reason we have them
is to tell somebody else's brain

560
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,800
what we're feeling or thinking 
or what we're paying intention 

561
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:37,840
to. 
That's the only reason they're 

562
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,160
there. 
So anyway, those and those areas

563
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,600
are, are what's the source of 
empathy and kind of 

564
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,960
understanding when another 
person needs or wants or what 

565
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,320
they've learned from, from like,
you know, tasting a, a, you 

566
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,400
know, something that might be 
bad for you. 

567
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,520
And the more activity you have 
in the couple of those areas, 

568
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,760
like the, you know, the anterior
cingular cortex and the insula 

569
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,560
buried under here, that predicts
like your likelihood of helping 

570
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,160
somebody and, and generally how 
empathetic you are. 

571
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,880
So that's one pathway and 
they're interacting and there's 

572
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,720
another pathway you can think of
as more cognitive or mental, and

573
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,800
it's doing the other part of the
equation, which is trying to 

574
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,440
figure out it forms a mental 
model of another person's mental

575
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,280
state. 
So it's like mind reading. 

576
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,040
So it is decoding or making 
inferences about what that 

577
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,640
person finds important from, for
example, what they're paying 

578
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,640
attention to, where they look, 
where they're looking, their 

579
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,720
general disposition, are they 
trustworthy or not, You know, 

580
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,640
especially if you've interacted 
with them in the past, it allows

581
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,640
you to make better predictions 
about what they're likely to do.

582
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,240
So that's going to guide your 
behavior. 

583
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,600
Those two streams come together 
eventually to shape. 

584
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,960
Now this is where we get back to
decision making shape. 

585
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,960
The calculation of value or 
utility signals, OK, which is 

586
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,320
happening a little bit down 
here, OK. 

587
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,280
And it's those value utility 
signals that then inform the 

588
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,600
choice that we make. 
So do I approach you and hug you

589
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,199
or do I, you know, stand back 
and go whoa, no thanks. 

590
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,280
You know, do I negotiate fairly 
with you or do I cheat, You 

591
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,080
know, in our, in our 
negotiation, you know, I do I 

592
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,239
bluff you in poker, you know 
that. 

593
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,840
And then the system is really 
smart. 

594
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,280
So it learns from every 
decision, every action you 

595
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,520
engage in. 
So there's a forecast about how 

596
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,199
what's going to happen based on 
what, you know, what did I do 

597
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,679
and what, how you would respond.
And then the difference between 

598
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:45,719
what you, your brain forecast 
will happen, what it predicts 

599
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,400
and what actually happens, that 
error signal, that difference is

600
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,960
fed back into the whole system 
so that hopefully it's a 

601
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,600
teaching signal that then 
updates it and hopefully it'll 

602
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,480
work better next time. 
So if you make a faux pas right 

603
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,320
in an interact, then you 
hopefully learn from that. 

604
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,360
Now, not everybody does learn as
you know, there are differences.

605
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,160
And that's another, I'm talking 
about the average, you know, 

606
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,040
average human brain, average 
human social brain network. 

607
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,920
And of course, there are very, 
there's variation amongst 

608
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,400
people. 
So, you know, some people are 

609
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,040
better at reading social cues 
than other people. 

610
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,000
Some people are more motivated 
to, you know, you call them 

611
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,120
extroverts, right? 
But it's not really the 

612
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,720
terminology we use in 
neuroscience, but it's they're 

613
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:32,040
they're, they're more engaged, 
more motivated to be with other 

614
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,840
people and some people less. 
So. 

615
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,840
I'm not putting a value 
judgement on that at all. 

616
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,520
That variation is there 
presumably for a reason, you 

617
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,160
know, and we could talk about 
that too. 

618
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,160
That's where the monkey work, I 
think is informative. 

619
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,960
So, So the social brain network,
would you think of that as one 

620
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:56,520
of the various myriad of tools 
on a Swiss Army knife or is that

621
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,920
sort of more like an operating 
system that the tools live on? 

622
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,120
I, I, I don't, I think they're 
those, those two things are you 

623
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,600
can't really separate. 
So I would just say that it is a

624
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:10,640
tool. 
It's a tool. 

625
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,160
One of the really. 
Really important tools that it's

626
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,120
not the tweezers or the no no. 
It's really important and we 

627
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,400
have other tools, for example, 
for, you know, like thinking 

628
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,280
outside the box and exploration 
and innovation, you know, 

629
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,440
decision making, you kind of 
think of as a as a tool that's 

630
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,960
in there. 
So that's how it's all, you 

631
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,960
know, set up and, and the 
various basically what what I do

632
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,880
in the book is, is examine a few
of these tools, you know, make 

633
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,800
the case for why they're 
important for leadership. 

634
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,920
So just decision making, for 
example, and then try to, you 

635
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,560
know, tell you how it works. 
And you know, in a sense, like 

636
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,400
for decision making, this is 
really important. 

637
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,960
Why do we care about how the 
brain makes decisions? 

638
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,600
You might just say, oh, we don't
care. 

639
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,120
I mean, that's what economists 
said when, when we when people 

640
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,520
first started neuroeconomics and
studying situationally. 

641
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,720
Well, we don't really care. 
All we need to do is predict 

642
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:09,240
people's behavior. 
We don't care what's going on 

643
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:14,040
inside. 
Well, it turns out that knowing 

644
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,720
that is really important because
it, it defines the rules that 

645
00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:22,120
the brain lives by, right? 
There's certain constraints, 

646
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,760
there's certain limitations on 
the way brains process 

647
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,920
information that turn out to be 
really important for decision 

648
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:37,760
making that are the source of 
many biases and, you know, the 

649
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,600
source of the mistakes that we 
often make, right? 

650
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,080
So if you want to make better 
decisions, wouldn't it be it 

651
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,480
seems smart to understand those 
so that you can navigate, you 

652
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,360
know, navigate those issues in a
more effective way. 

653
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,560
Yeah, totally. 
Coming back to I keep hammering 

654
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,120
on social grains because they 
were tough. 

655
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:02,920
It's it seems so vital. 
You said, you said something 

656
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,920
earlier that really struck me 
like that, that this is what 

657
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:12,720
allows us to get things done 
together that we would otherwise

658
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,840
not be able to do alone. 
I'm thinking about, you know, 

659
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,760
like what's the like the So what
behind the social brain network?

660
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,920
Would you say that that's like 
the primary? 

661
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,280
So what that it essentially? 
There's many. 

662
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,040
So what so, so, so we are, I 
mean, I, you know, I, I make 

663
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,680
this point on time. 
We're wired to connect. 

664
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,040
We don't have connection. 
We fall apart and we're seeing 

665
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,600
that, you know, more and more 
and more, particularly in young 

666
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:39,680
people. 
I think you'll be super. 

667
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,400
Smart, super biologically 
healthy, but if you do not have 

668
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:45,320
sort of interpersonal contact 
correct like you just. 

669
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:46,960
You might really state. 
Deteriorate. 

670
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,720
Yeah, I mean, people who are 
lonely, people who lack social 

671
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:52,720
connection, it's really bad for 
your health. 

672
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,280
It's bad for your mental health 
that that generally, you know, 

673
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,240
increases anxiety and 
depression, etcetera, but it's 

674
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:00,120
bad for your physical health 
too, we now know. 

675
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,320
So lacking connection and 
feeling lonely, which is the gap

676
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,480
between the social interactions 
you want to have and the ones 

677
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,680
that you're having. 
There are a variety of reasons 

678
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,560
why that might happen. 
That's worse for your health 

679
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,480
than smoking a pack of 
cigarettes a day. 

680
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,320
Oh, Lord. 
Serious. 

681
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,800
Yeah. 
I mean, the epidemiological data

682
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,120
is really clear on this. 
And it just, and honestly, it 

683
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,920
just kind of keeps getting worse
because. 

684
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,560
And we can talk about why that 
might be so, but people are 

685
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,560
societies are becoming more and 
more fragmented, obviously 

686
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,520
polarized, but people are just 
less social, you know, 

687
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,680
especially here in the United 
States. 

688
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,480
They, they go out less, they 
interact less with people 

689
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,600
outside the home. 
They are less likely to belong 

690
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,880
to community organizations to, 
you know, to go to church or 

691
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,640
synagogue or mosque, all these. 
Well, there's an. 

692
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,720
Irony because I might have like,
you know, several thousand 

693
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:55,840
LinkedIn connections and and 
Facebook connections and this 

694
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,600
and that and yet I, I may, you 
know, not have plans with 

695
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,800
anybody tonight and, and, and 
may feel. 

696
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,000
You know, moderately if not more
depressed, right? 

697
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,440
Yeah. 
I mean, it's a it, there is a 

698
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,240
distinction, right? 
There's a difference there 

699
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:13,920
between, I mean, our brains are 
designed by evolution for IRL in

700
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,160
real life, in real life, 3 
dimensions with another human 

701
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,600
being, right? 
And we saw this painfully in 

702
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,040
COVID, right? 
Suddenly overnight, you're told 

703
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,840
you got to go lock yourself in 
your house. 

704
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,720
We've got these great tools now,
video conferencing. 

705
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,440
But wow, what a difference that 
is, right? 

706
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,760
So there's so many reasons why 
that just falls short. 

707
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,840
But the basic reason is that our
brains are designed for this 

708
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,640
physical reality. 
In person, you stick somebody, 

709
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,920
you squash them flat in A2 
dimensions in a tiny little box 

710
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,240
on the screen. 
You know, where there's bad, you

711
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:49,720
can't see their eyes really, you
know, and there was a whole 

712
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:51,360
bunch of them there. 
So that fragments your 

713
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,720
attention. 
And it it's no wonder that you 

714
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:57,320
know, you have Zoom fatigue or 
Teams fatigue or what not 

715
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,120
because it's your brain has to 
work so much harder and it is 

716
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:02,600
just not the same thing. 
So. 

717
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,280
Is it like a social brain crisis
going on right now or or like 

718
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,840
the possibility of that? 
How do you think about like, you

719
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,960
know, our our increasingly 
digitized lives and the more 

720
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,440
time we're spending on using AI 
rather than like a human 

721
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,320
teacher? 
Or that's the next level. 

722
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,800
I mean, I think that, you know, 
the first AI, I'm not the one 

723
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,320
that came up with this, but the 
first, the very crude AI that 

724
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,920
was unleashed on human, the 
human species was smartphones 

725
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,680
and social media. 
Interesting. 

726
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,320
You know, which is, you know, 
social media is, you know, built

727
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,680
on algorithms that are designed 
based on how our brains, you 

728
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,200
know, assign value to things. 
But it, it basically it's 

729
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,800
reinforcement. 
It's, it's, it's the same thing 

730
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,080
as like going to a casino and, 
you know, getting the occasional

731
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,600
win and there's lots of, you 
know, bells and whistles going 

732
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:54,880
off. 
And it also takes advantage of 

733
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,480
our social brains because we're 
wired to look for information 

734
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,280
about others, to learn about 
others too, and to, to value 

735
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,960
reinforcement, social 
reinforcement. 

736
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,840
I mean that can, you know, that 
can substitute for other kinds 

737
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,960
of rewards that are necessary 
for life, like food and water 

738
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,400
and you know, etcetera. 
I mean, we showed that a long 

739
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,040
time ago in our, in our monkey 
work. 

740
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,280
And it's it because it's so 
important to, you know, to our 

741
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,040
lives. 
So kind of get back to your 

742
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,360
question, the why the So what? 
First of all, it's it's critical

743
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,720
for our our health physical. 
Just. 

744
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:37,480
Just being with others and so 
social support. 

745
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,040
And again, the monkeys have told
us a lot about this really 

746
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,040
powerfully. 
But also as you were discussing,

747
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,920
there's power in what we can do 
together that we couldn't do 

748
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,000
alone, but only so for the 
collective intelligence of a 

749
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,160
group and collective innovative 
abilities, etcetera. 

750
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,640
There's so much potential there.
And the challenge is like 

751
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,680
actually creating the conditions
under which that can work. 

752
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:07,560
That's the chemistry part, 
right? 

753
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,520
Team chemistry. 
It doesn't necessarily happen 

754
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,720
all the time. 
We've all been there, you know, 

755
00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:17,120
whether whether you're playing a
sports or you're, you know, in 

756
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,760
the office working on a team 
where it's like, wow, this is 

757
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,480
just going off the rails or 
there's something wrong here and

758
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,720
we can't figure it out and we're
not playing well together. 

759
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,240
And we know when it's the 
opposite, when it's like sudden 

760
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,200
it's like magic, right? 
You, you know. 

761
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,440
It's flow state. 
We it's flow. 

762
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,800
I mean, we, you know. 
Even like attend to the effort 

763
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,160
'cause it's just happening. 
It's unfolding in teams that are

764
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,800
amazing, like we just saw with 
our amazing men's and women's, 

765
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,200
you know, USA Hockey teams, you 
know, with the, the men's team 

766
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,840
in particular not favored. 
Canada was a way better team, 

767
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,760
way better team. 
The summer parts. 

768
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,160
Absolutely way way better, Way 
better. 

769
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,120
As you know, you're a hockey 
better, but a way better team. 

770
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:07,200
But somehow, you know, the 
American team just that night, 

771
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,040
you know, had it, had that 
right. 

772
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,320
And, you know, we could talk 
about why, why that might be so.

773
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,200
But it was such a, you know, a 
reminder, you know, whatever it 

774
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,640
was 46 years ago to the week. 
I was 13 years old in 1980 when 

775
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,000
Placid, like Placid, you know, 
and that was that was, you know,

776
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,600
so the, you know, the the USA 
men's hockey team beating the 

777
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,160
Soviet Union. 
Soviet Union was best it's. 

778
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,520
Almost. 
This identical, it was kind of 

779
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,880
like Rocky Four. 
It was like because it was the 

780
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,880
Soviet Union, not Russia, but it
was like they had these guys 

781
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,120
were all professionals 
essentially supported by the 

782
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:45,680
state. 
They had all the best training, 

783
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,200
all the best everything. 
And, and the US team was college

784
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,920
players, you know, recruited 
whatever just a couple of months

785
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,960
before the Olympics had to, you 
know, put them together and 

786
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,760
somehow get them to work 
together and develop chemistry 

787
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,600
really rapidly with with the, 
you know, I think the the 

788
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,080
premise was quite clear was that
they may be, you know, they may 

789
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,080
be a team of better players, but
if we're the better team, we 

790
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,800
could beat them, right? 
If we have that trust that if we

791
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,360
perspective taking, we know you 
know where everybody's going to 

792
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,840
be, this sort of like 
anticipation and being able to 

793
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,640
be in that flow state. 
Well, that's I actually want to 

794
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,080
double click because, you know, 
you mentioned like ultimately 

795
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:39,120
performance is a really 
important piece of your research

796
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,680
and, and, and, and, and 
something that motivates you to 

797
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,640
continue to delve deeper and 
deeper into all these different 

798
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,320
topics. 
And when we think about team 

799
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,480
performance, so you mentioned 
like perspective taking 

800
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:58,600
chemistry, which feels kind of, 
you know, woo woo, like I'd like

801
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,160
to understand what's happening 
really like what is chemistry 

802
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:07,440
really perspective taking trust 
that also feels kind of soft, 

803
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,320
like just just help. 
Like why would a team outperform

804
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,600
or underperform based on what's 
happening in the brain and maybe

805
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,080
even like social brain that 
works specifically? 

806
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,360
Yeah. 
I mean, I think the, the, the, 

807
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:27,360
why do they prevail, right? 
Is, is still a question that, 

808
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,160
you know, I don't know. 
I don't know that we have an 

809
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,920
answer for in the sense of like,
well, you know, like when you 

810
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,360
feel like you have psychological
momentum, you know, but I think 

811
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,880
that there's, there's like a, 
you know, we could talk about 

812
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,640
the things that seem to be 
associated with that. 

813
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,800
Like there's a joy in playing 
together. 

814
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,200
You know that that's part of 
that, that flow state, right? 

815
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:49,480
There's. 
That would be like a rewarding 

816
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,160
that would be. 
Rewarding, it's joy. 

817
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,360
There's one more of that 
something collective, you're 

818
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,320
right. 
Something about doing things 

819
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,400
together that feels like it's 
bigger. 

820
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,040
It's it's more it's more than 
you alone. 

821
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,600
And it's that we know this sense
of purpose and drive, especially

822
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,480
when you're doing that for other
people. 

823
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,920
That is really, really 
motivating, right? 

824
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,800
And so players may go the, you 
know, the you put in that bit of

825
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,120
extra effort, really take that 
risk. 

826
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,480
And also, I think sacrifice. 
So it's the sacrifice part like,

827
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:31,720
OK, I'm going to actually pass 
it because I I'm, you know, AI 

828
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:33,960
know he's going to make that 
shot, right? 

829
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,840
Yeah. 
So which is a really hard thing 

830
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,920
to do sometimes, right? 
You, you, you know you want your

831
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:40,400
own. 
Passing. 

832
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,720
Glory your own self, glory, 
right? 

833
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,280
And and think about somebody 
like a goalie who's got to just,

834
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:50,240
they're literally putting their 
body on the line, you know, to 

835
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:53,120
stop these pucks that are coming
100 miles an hour. 

836
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,640
Not for me, yes. 
So but that the ultimate like 

837
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,240
self sacrifice position right? 
Yeah, Yeah. 

838
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:04,680
So what what I can say that we 
now know, and this is something 

839
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,760
we're investigating and other 
people are, which is that when 

840
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:13,640
those conditions are met, 
chemistry that that is 

841
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,480
associated with something that 
we call synchrony, interpersonal

842
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,920
brain synchrony, physiological 
synchrony, which first really 

843
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,040
discussed in in dyads, you know,
pairs of people. 

844
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,680
So when you have a great 
relationship with somebody, when

845
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,140
you, you have to be your friend,
your partner, whatever even Co 

846
00:48:30,140 --> 00:48:32,480
worker, you know, kind of when 
you finish each other's 

847
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,080
sentences and you really just, 
you just click that click what 

848
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,960
that is associated with what 
what that means is that actually

849
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:41,720
your brains are resonating 
together. 

850
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:44,840
I don't mean some non physical 
sense. 

851
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,400
I mean, although we don't know 
everything about how this works,

852
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,920
but when you have that kind of 
rapport, what happens is your 

853
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,080
brains are you have similar 
patterns of activity in both of 

854
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,720
your brains. 
So that means that you're kind 

855
00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:01,600
of like see they seeing or 
perceiving the world more 

856
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,680
similarly. 
You're feeling more similar. 

857
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,400
This is totally unconscious. 
Yeah, I mean, I, I, but I think 

858
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,120
it is that, you know that. 
Biologically measurable. 

859
00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:13,120
Yes, so so but I'll I'll I'll 
give you. 

860
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,160
Is it it can become conscious in
the sense of like when you had 

861
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,640
that experience, you know, when 
you're in a for me, like going 

862
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:24,040
to an Eagles game and you know, 
and you you stand up and you 

863
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,800
sing the national anthem. 
You know, The Jets fly over and 

864
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,360
you just have this your hair 
stands up on the back of your 

865
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,880
neck and it's like, yeah, I 
don't have any, but it's but but

866
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,240
you know, that feeling of like 
what? 

867
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:36,360
Why do you go do things like why
did go to? 

868
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,240
You can watch it on TV. 
It's much more comfortable, but 

869
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:41,720
there's something different 
about having that experience 

870
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,160
together and so this. 
It's an awe inspiring moment. 

871
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:45,800
You can't even describe it. 
It's ineffable. 

872
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,800
It's ineffable. 
So that is, that's brain 

873
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:54,120
synchrony. 
So and that, and when our brains

874
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:58,240
align, it turns out that this 
percolates down to our bodies 

875
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:01,640
too. 
So our, our hearts will will be 

876
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,320
together. 
You know, we breathe together, 

877
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,520
we move together, we start to 
Orient our attention together, 

878
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,840
which reinforces, it's like a 
feedback loop, right? 

879
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:16,640
And then critically, you can 
kind of run this in reverse by 

880
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,040
moving together or breathing 
together. 

881
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:24,240
This is why, you know, the, the 
lot of chemistry building 

882
00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:28,160
exercises involve, you know, 
moving together, singing 

883
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,240
together, chanting together. 
So basically all these rhythmic 

884
00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:34,960
activities, every human culture 
has them, whether it's dance or 

885
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:36,720
drumming or singing, they have 
all these right. 

886
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,120
Those are synchrony building 
technologies. 

887
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:47,920
So, and I believe that is their,
you know, every culture has them

888
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,880
because, you know, when 
evolution hit upon that or 

889
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,560
cultural whatever, it's that 
creates the glue that keeps us 

890
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,680
together so that we're not 
acting selfishly, right? 

891
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,280
Because it's a tension, right? 
You, you, there is a tension 

892
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:08,880
between acting in your own 
self-interest and kind of acting

893
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,280
for the good of the group. 
And it's this, this synchrony 

894
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,560
that is the glue. 
And we, you know, we've shown 

895
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,600
that in a number of different 
studies and that it, you know, 

896
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,680
it, it goes well beyond just 
inter, you know, 2 individuals. 

897
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:25,920
It's teams. 
When teams hearts are beating 

898
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:31,520
together, they can accomplish 
more difficult tasks. 

899
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,120
They can use all the information
that's available. 

900
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,040
We believe that that when our 
hearts are beating together In 

901
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,160
Sync, this is a this is what 
psychological safety is. 

902
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,080
People been talking about 
psychological safety for decades

903
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,760
but not knowing what it is 
biologically. 

904
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,400
But biologically is essentially 
in neurosynchrony. 

905
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,720
It's neurosynchrony, absolutely.
So that's, you know, though in 

906
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:57,200
this, in this one study, which 
we published a year and a half 

907
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,920
ago, and it was a, it was a, a 
business type situation, 

908
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,800
although, you know, it was, it, 
it, it was still an experiment. 

909
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,640
But we had teams of like 6 
people. 

910
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,680
We had, we had hundreds of them 
and, or hundreds some. 

911
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,760
And we gave them this really 
hard challenge which they had to

912
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,480
evaluate candidates to hire, OK,
one candidate out of a pool of 

913
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,960
candidates. 
So they get this really lengthy 

914
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,600
resume. 
And so there's a lot of detail 

915
00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:28,160
and we distribute information 
asymmetrically. 

916
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,120
So they don't know that. 
So a couple of people or one 

917
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,640
person, they might have a little
bit extra information on the 

918
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,760
resume that that actually turns 
out to be critical. 

919
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,160
So without that, you kind of run
to the default and you're like, 

920
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,000
Oh yeah, I'm going to hire the, 
you know, hire the the woman who

921
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,680
went to Harvard. 
But it might turn out that 

922
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,360
there's actually a problem with 
that individual. 

923
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,960
So in order to get it right, 
make the right hire, everybody 

924
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,440
has to participate. 
So number one, right? 

925
00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:59,760
So everybody's got to be 
engaged. 

926
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,840
You have to feel safe enough in 
a sense and confident enough to 

927
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:08,680
voice your opinion, to introduce
information into the discussion.

928
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,960
You have to recognize, you know 
something that everybody else 

929
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:16,800
doesn't know, which is pretty 
sophisticated social inference, 

930
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,360
right? 
And the group has to have the 

931
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,360
capability to have a real robust
discussion. 

932
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,080
It's not like one person's 
dominating or some people feel 

933
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:32,440
too timid or shy to participate 
or they not been drawn out, 

934
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,680
right? 
There is a leader, you know, in 

935
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,720
there, even an emergent leader, 
not, not named as the leader. 

936
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,000
So that in order to get right, 
you got to get all that to 

937
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,320
happen, right? 
And it turns out that if, yeah, 

938
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,200
if your hearts are In Sync, then
you get it right most of the 

939
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:48,840
time. 
And if they're not, then you get

940
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:50,520
it. 
You know you get it wrong. 

941
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,920
And you were able to have to 
actually measure this. 

942
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:54,960
Yeah, yeah. 
The heart rate monitors. 

943
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,080
So you have the heart rate 
monitors on on the various team 

944
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,400
members and the teams that sort 
of like outperformed on this 

945
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,920
task essentially had greater 
synchrony together. 

946
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,320
Exactly. 
So it wasn't a function of like,

947
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,440
this is the most intelligent 
team and that's why they got it.

948
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:12,320
Right. 
And what, what was in this, this

949
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:16,720
what was also really, I think 
important and, and, and, and 

950
00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:20,320
I'll make the case that 
everything we do meets this 

951
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:25,520
test, passes this test. 
So their own self reported 

952
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:31,000
rating of how much psychological
safety there was on the team or 

953
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,800
or their their anyway their 
their sense and their ability to

954
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:39,440
report the conditions of that 
committee did not predict, did 

955
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,600
not did not. 
So it's the biology. 

956
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,680
Predicts it but but they're on 
self perception. 

957
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,240
Then no and that's where, you 
know, I think the applied that 

958
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:50,720
that's why neuroscience also is 
super important in application 

959
00:54:50,720 --> 00:54:52,760
tells the true business. 
It's yeah, I always say if you 

960
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:54,440
want to know the truth, ask the 
brain directly. 

961
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,680
We can do that now in marketing.
It's super clear. 

962
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:01,680
Basically, you know, the 
standard approach is to ask 

963
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:02,960
people, how much would you like 
it? 

964
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:04,520
How much would you be willing to
pay for that? 

965
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:05,760
You know, did you remember that 
ad? 

966
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,560
What did you remember? 
Traditional market research. 

967
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:08,720
Yeah. 
And that's like is going to 

968
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:12,520
explain somewhere between 0 and 
8% of the variance in out of 

969
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:17,040
sample in what everybody in the 
market does the brain data just 

970
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,000
collected passively. 
So you don't have to interrupt 

971
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,240
people to ask them questions, 
right, which changes their, you 

972
00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:26,800
know, their responses. 
You know, there's often bias in 

973
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,520
there because of like I'm being 
asked questions about this for 

974
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,480
some reason I don't want or I 
don't, you know, I don't want to

975
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,560
look psychotic or whatever. 
So the brain data all is going 

976
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,120
to predict, you know, in our 
hands and in other people's 

977
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:42,440
hands, anywhere between like 70 
and even 90% of the behavior of 

978
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:44,880
millions of people in terms of 
like everything from click 

979
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:48,120
throughs to sales. 
And we've got some really 

980
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:50,680
sophisticated stuff going on now
where we can predict like 

981
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:54,160
changes in stock prices is a 
function of ad spend. 

982
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:59,280
I mean, it's like it's pretty, I
mean, when you step back, it's 

983
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,040
pretty breathtaking or 
revolutionary. 

984
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,600
I mean, I would have said 20 
years ago when I, you know, was 

985
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,800
we first getting into this 
stuff, it was like, no way. 

986
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,080
You know, we could predict maybe
what one person would do based 

987
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,800
on their own brain activity. 
But to take brain activity now 

988
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:18,000
from just a handful of people, 
let's say 20 and predict what 

989
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,360
millions of people will do. 
Now think about the ways in 

990
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,400
which you could use that. 
You can use that like that's 

991
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,760
like everything from AB testing,
but on steroids. 

992
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:33,040
It makes your process so much 
more efficient and scalable and 

993
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,400
it allows you to iterate and you
can do it, you know, honestly, 

994
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,400
the entire process from, you 
know, design, creative, 

995
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,200
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 
And now like lather, rinse and 

996
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,240
repeat for for management, like 
OK fitness for role, like how do

997
00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:49,640
you know who to hire for which 
role? 

998
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,760
And then how do you close the 
gap between, you know, where 

999
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,720
their skills are now and what 
they need to do? 

1000
00:56:54,720 --> 00:56:59,040
Again, neuroscience does that 
much more effectively than 

1001
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,960
traditional ways like a, you 
know, a Myers Briggs test or 

1002
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,440
something like that, which is 
only marginally more, you know, 

1003
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,360
better predicted than astrology.
Well. 

1004
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:11,720
That one in particular, yeah. 
That's an Adam Grant. 

1005
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,640
Yeah, that's that. 
No, that's fascinating. 

1006
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:25,240
So, so I, you know, I'm curious 
to what extent narrow synchrony,

1007
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:32,440
the team getting In Sync is a 
function of, of a great leader 

1008
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,480
stepping in and saying, guys, 
let's come together and setting 

1009
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,160
the tone. 
Or is it something that sort of 

1010
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:43,240
emerges more naturally? 
Like does leadership play a role

1011
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:49,000
in determining whether a group 
becomes synced? 

1012
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:53,680
Yeah, I, I believe so. 
You know, that is still a work 

1013
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:57,400
in progress. 
We do know from a couple of 

1014
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:04,080
studies that leaders, people's 
followers, brains tend to sink 

1015
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:08,680
onto a leader's brain, which is 
which is pretty interesting and 

1016
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,320
kind of what you would expect. 
Why and how does that happen? 

1017
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,480
We're it's still, you know, 
emerging. 

1018
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,840
But but, but let's kind of back 
up a sense and and talk about 

1019
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,560
like one of the most effective 
ways to get In Sync with someone

1020
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,560
is actually through an authentic
conversation. 

1021
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,280
So give and take in, you know, 
that, you know, being authentic,

1022
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,840
being a bit vulnerable, even, 
you know, this, this we and 

1023
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:39,440
other scientists have worked 
with, you know, this every every

1024
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,080
year around Valentine's Day, you
know, in the, the media, you'll 

1025
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,560
hear about the 36 questions to, 
to fall in love, right? 

1026
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,120
And that's a that's a legit 
exercise. 

1027
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,800
It's not so much for falling in 
love, but it's about breaking 

1028
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,800
down barriers and becoming close
to people. 

1029
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,240
And my colleague and friend 
Emily Falk here at the Annenberg

1030
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:03,280
School showed that when people 
are working through this and, 

1031
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,240
and we've done this exercise 
before. 

1032
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:06,960
This is Is this the fast fast 
friends? 

1033
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,920
Fast friends so so, but it is a 
it is a way to it's probably. 

1034
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,080
Why we're so? 
Stimulate and promote a real 

1035
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:15,560
authentic, it's like telling 
your story, right? 

1036
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,960
And so as you do that, people's 
brains like what they may start 

1037
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:25,600
out very far apart, right, in 
terms of their activation with 

1038
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:27,760
the pattern of activity. 
And as you work through it, they

1039
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,760
come closer and closer together 
and there's some interesting 

1040
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,160
dynamics around like how well 
you know each other, etcetera. 

1041
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,000
But in general, having a 
conversation like that closes 

1042
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,720
the gap. 
And there are other ways of kind

1043
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:45,240
of stimulating that to happen 
through even like briefly 

1044
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:50,640
saying, you know, like like just
like me, this person has 

1045
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:54,000
experienced pain and suffering, 
etcetera, or meditating on that 

1046
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,760
person's humanity. 
So there, there are a lot of 

1047
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,960
ancient practices, right, kind 
of loving kindness, meditation, 

1048
00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:05,680
etcetera, that that close that 
gap that gets you more In Sync. 

1049
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:12,200
So in terms of leadership, one 
thing I think a leader can do is

1050
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,160
get everybody In Sync and get 
them In Sync with them. 

1051
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,520
Right. 
So, so it turns out that, you 

1052
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,080
know, like for example, when 
there's a really beautiful, 

1053
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:25,520
beautiful study done by my 
friend Ori Hassan, who's at 

1054
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,760
Princeton, which was done, I 
don't know, 15 years ago or 

1055
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,280
more. 
And he, he's one of The Pioneers

1056
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:33,160
in in. 
In. 

1057
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:34,880
Studying neurosynchrony. 
Yeah. 

1058
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,160
And he had this great study 
where he had two groups of 

1059
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:42,360
people, participants who were 
going to go in the MRI machines 

1060
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,840
and scan their brains. 
And everybody's going to hear 

1061
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,720
the same story. 
It's called Pretty Mouth and 

1062
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:52,120
Green My Eyes by JD Salinger. 
And it's a short story and 

1063
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:56,240
there's two ways to kind of 
interpret it. 1 is that, and 

1064
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,600
it's this story about a, you 
know, a couple, they, they go to

1065
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,600
a party in New York City. 
They somehow lose track of each 

1066
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,480
other. 
My husband goes home and his 

1067
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,600
wife's not there. 
And there's, you know, he calls 

1068
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:11,800
his friend up to ask if he's 
seen her and like, there's a 

1069
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,440
woman in the background. 
And so there's, there's two ways

1070
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,080
to think about it. 1 is like the
husband's needlessly jealous. 

1071
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:21,440
There's nothing going on or his 
wife's having an affair with his

1072
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:23,600
best friend. 
And So what Ori did in this 

1073
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,360
study was to, for the two 
groups, give them different 

1074
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:31,360
prompts like needlessly jealous 
or wife's having an affair. 

1075
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,800
So now what? 
When you look at brain activity,

1076
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,040
patterns of brain activity in 
the two groups, everybody who 

1077
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,560
had the like, you know, wife's 
having an affair, their brains 

1078
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,120
were all basically synchronized.
You know, they looked exactly 

1079
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,760
the same and was totally 
different from the people who 

1080
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:51,240
were primed with, you know, 
husbands needlessly jealous so. 

1081
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,320
Fascinating. 
So now think about like, you 

1082
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,080
know, a charismatic leader or 
somebody when you get up there 

1083
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,360
to, you know, you're addressing 
your audience, addressing your 

1084
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:02,880
team. 
You're essentially your job is 

1085
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,880
to get them In Sync with each 
other and with you. 

1086
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:10,640
When they're In Sync, that that 
is a a predictor of you know 

1087
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,360
that they're going to process 
information, you know more. 

1088
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,400
Similarly, they're going to hear
what you're saying and and act 

1089
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,000
on it. 
They're going to be more likely 

1090
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,160
to do with. 
More probable to carry out the 

1091
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:24,040
vision. 
Then if they're not so and you 

1092
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,960
know, each day everybody shows 
up a little differently, even if

1093
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:29,800
they're, you know, part of the 
same team, like a bad drive to 

1094
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:32,400
work or didn't sleep well or, 
you know, if you had, you won 

1095
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,440
the lottery this morning. 
So everybody's brains are in 

1096
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,720
different state. 
And so that it's that if the 

1097
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:42,960
leader can get everybody 
synchronized with each other and

1098
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,880
with them, they're going to have
a much higher likelihood of 

1099
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:51,600
achieving their objectives. 
And that's, I believe why like 

1100
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,600
really effective speakers, 
right? 

1101
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,640
Our, you know, our really 
effective leaders are often 

1102
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,000
really, you know, they should be
really great communicators. 

1103
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:02,560
That's how that you get 
everybody In Sync. 

1104
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:07,720
And in my, you know, I don't 
know that I'm such a great 

1105
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:13,120
speaker in terms of doing that, 
but my, you know, my shortcut is

1106
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:18,080
the sort of poor man's synchrony
builder is to tell a really bad 

1107
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,240
joke. 
So at the, you know, beginning 

1108
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,160
of every class, I tell some 
really bad science joke and 

1109
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:25,640
everybody either laughs or 
groans. 

1110
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,560
They typically groan, but 
they're groaning. 

1111
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,640
Together they're. 
Groaning together and they hear 

1112
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,840
each other groaning together 
because now they're all locked 

1113
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:33,400
in. 
They're like, we all feel the 

1114
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:37,480
same way, you know, and they're 
emotionally synchronized at that

1115
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,760
moment, you know, and they're 
paying attention and they're in,

1116
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,840
they're in it's. 
Fascinating to think about these

1117
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,440
things we take for granted and 
think of it as, like, tactics 

1118
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:52,320
for speaking or just, you know, 
oh, that that yeah, you got to 

1119
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,120
be a little more humorous or, 
you know, enhance your 

1120
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:58,360
storytelling. 
But really what you're doing is 

1121
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:03,800
you're enhancing the synchrony 
of the audience. 

1122
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,720
That's right. 
What are like some very like, 

1123
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,920
you know, imagine they're like 
some narrow hacks that you can 

1124
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,800
share with with a leader who's 
looking to improve their 

1125
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,880
capacity to get their teams 
synced. 

1126
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:26,320
Yeah, I mean, first of all, you 
got to make time, time and space

1127
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:27,960
for them to actually talk with 
each other. 

1128
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,360
So if you go in and you're like,
let's just get right down to 

1129
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:35,080
work, you're missing that, you 
know, probably really crucial 

1130
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,920
few moments to build synchrony 
so that people can more 

1131
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,120
effectively. 
And you think you're being like,

1132
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:44,000
listen, hey, we got to focus on 
performance, not the soft stuff,

1133
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,160
but actually by getting to know 
each other, that enhances 

1134
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:48,440
performance. 
Yeah. 

1135
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,520
I mean, yeah, absolutely. 
And this is, you know, I, I was 

1136
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:55,320
telling you earlier, we've been 
working with PwC on a primer, a 

1137
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:59,160
guide for helping boards which 
are tasked with like really 

1138
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:02,880
challenging, you know, couple 
big decisions, you know, and 

1139
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,120
typically they're not together, 
you know, they're meeting 

1140
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,720
whatever quarterly or maybe 
twice a year or something. 

1141
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,840
So there's this sense that like 
we just got to get right down to

1142
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:17,360
work and start executing, but 
then they're not taking that 

1143
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:23,040
time to have a bit of authentic 
conversation communication, 

1144
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,640
which re either establishes or 
re establishes the synchrony 

1145
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,720
that will enable them to, you 
know, be able to process 

1146
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,320
information better to be make 
sure they're all engaged, that 

1147
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,280
they're not distracted. 
So, so I would say, you know, 

1148
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:41,400
there's a number of things here.
There's like create, create the 

1149
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,080
conditions for that time, make 
time and space right? 

1150
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:46,680
Model that so you model the 
behavior. 

1151
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,560
It's model the behavior itself, 
because that's contagious as 

1152
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:51,520
well from our social brain is 
everybody. 

1153
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:53,200
'S looking up with the leader 
and and sort of. 

1154
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:55,840
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
Exactly, mimicking in some ways.

1155
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,120
Some way they don't know it, 
it's subconscious, but but it 

1156
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,040
is, it is contagious emulating. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1157
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:06,600
So you guys make time and space 
model the behavior, make eye 

1158
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:10,880
contact. 
That actually is the first step 

1159
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,880
in get, you know when when 
you're face to face with someone

1160
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:17,040
that begins to synchronize your 
brain activity really while 

1161
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:18,680
you're making eye contact. 
Yeah. 

1162
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,440
So think about then. 
Why would somebody have 

1163
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,640
resistance to making eye 
contact? 

1164
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,760
Well, there, there, there are a 
variety of reasons. 

1165
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,040
I mean, there are differences 
amongst people, people with 

1166
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:33,040
social anxiety, for example, 
it's harder to make eye contact.

1167
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,680
There are some cultural 
differences, but in general we 

1168
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:40,720
make eye contact, you know, as 
as humans, people on the autism 

1169
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:44,240
spectrum typically or often 
don't make eye contact. 

1170
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,400
And the reasons why are are 
probably, you know, they're, 

1171
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,240
they're different reasons why? 
Because it's a, it's a spectrum,

1172
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:55,040
right? 
But so those are some of the the

1173
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:56,800
reasons. 
But I think also what's what's 

1174
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,760
happening now? 
You know, we talked about this 

1175
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:05,080
experiment that was been run on,
you know, the youth of the world

1176
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:08,240
beginning around 2010 with the 
introduction of smartphones and 

1177
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:10,800
then social media shortly 
thereafter. 

1178
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:15,800
Is that, and look, this is like 
the work of Jonathan Haidt and 

1179
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:22,320
Twangi and other people that now
when you got this and now you're

1180
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,400
staring at your phone, it's 
fractures attention. 

1181
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:26,960
Now I'm not paying attention to 
the thing that normally would be

1182
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,920
the most important thing in my 
world, which is the other person

1183
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:33,320
that I'm here with. 
And especially if that's 

1184
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:37,000
happening during the 
adolescence, which is a, a 

1185
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:41,400
critical period for developing 
social and emotional skills. 

1186
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:47,760
So just think of it, you know, 
I, I, I think this is not just a

1187
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:51,920
metaphor that, you know, these 
tools in the Swiss Army night, 

1188
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:53,720
right? 
They're kind of like muscles. 

1189
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:55,680
Or you can think of it as like, 
you can sharpen them or dull 

1190
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:56,760
them. 
If you're not sharpening them, 

1191
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:58,120
then they're going to get dull, 
right? 

1192
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:00,760
Or they're like a muscle. 
And when you exercise, it gets 

1193
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,360
stronger. 
When you don't exercise it, it 

1194
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:06,520
atrophies. 
And so anecdotally, I had been 

1195
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,960
hearing for, you know, the last,
you know, eight years or, you 

1196
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:14,240
know, certainly that younger 
people were kind of showing up 

1197
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:21,240
in the workforce lacking where 
their social emotional skills 

1198
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,720
are not as well developed as in 
previous generations. 

1199
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,840
And there's now data on on that 
as well. 

1200
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:32,880
And I can't remember the study 
who did it, but it came out like

1201
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:35,000
a year and a half ago or two 
years ago maybe. 

1202
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:41,120
And it was all survey based, but
of recruiters who said that it 

1203
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:46,760
was, you know, some really high 
percentage of applicants for 

1204
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:48,680
jobs, they come up for an 
interview, could not make eye 

1205
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:52,279
contact. 
And one of that's the first 

1206
01:08:52,279 --> 01:08:54,880
step. 
I mean, that what I'm, you know,

1207
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,000
we talked about social brain 
network, like my brain makes an 

1208
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,920
inference about what's important
based on what you're looking at,

1209
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,040
that you're not looking at me, 
right? 

1210
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:08,240
That tells me I'm not important.
And then we also failed to begin

1211
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:11,479
to build that right synchrony, 
which is the foundation of trust

1212
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:18,000
and communication. 
You are at the world's best 

1213
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,040
business. 
School arguably right. 

1214
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:24,279
You always trade places graded 
very highly and by other 

1215
01:09:24,279 --> 01:09:26,279
measures. 
Of daily so so you're teaching, 

1216
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:33,840
you know, weekly, daily and and 
working with researchers you're 

1217
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:38,520
working with and teaching the 
future yes of our world. 

1218
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,160
I wouldn't you say like America.
Because these these they're from

1219
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,200
everywhere our. 
People from everywhere and 

1220
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:44,920
they're going to go back to 
their homeland. 

1221
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:52,640
I have three questions for you. 
OK, What keeps you up at night? 

1222
01:09:53,880 --> 01:10:00,160
OK, What is exciting you from a 
hopeful standpoint? 

1223
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:04,960
And then if you had the 
opportunity to sort of give 

1224
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:11,320
advice to that large group of 
people we might call the future 

1225
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:15,720
leaders, the future generation 
of our world, what would that 

1226
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:18,400
that be so? 
Such easy question. 

1227
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:20,200
Yeah, so easy. 
Alright, let's start with the 

1228
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:25,440
What keeps you? 
Up at night, Yeah, it's AI right

1229
01:10:25,440 --> 01:10:28,400
now. 
So it is, you know, it's 

1230
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:31,360
something and I think it's, I'm 
not the only one, you know, it's

1231
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:33,920
changing, it's improving. 
Because you're using it and and 

1232
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,520
and you can't fall asleep. 
You know, there's that too. 

1233
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,440
I mean, it's exciting and it's 
amazing and like it's. 

1234
01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:44,120
Incredible double edged sword. 
Yeah, but you know the and we're

1235
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:49,720
I I believe we're already seeing
it, you know, the the impacts on

1236
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:55,320
labor markets, right dislocation
I think will be they are they're

1237
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:57,680
going to be profound. 
I mean, that was clear to me 

1238
01:10:57,680 --> 01:10:59,920
when, you know, ChatGPT first 
came out. 

1239
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:03,320
How could that not be? 
And you know, some sectors, some

1240
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:08,280
jobs are more exposed than 
others, but that, you know, 

1241
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:10,880
that's going to be potentially 
huge. 

1242
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:16,600
And you know, for those who 
might be unaffected directly, 

1243
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:20,040
like losing jobs or whole 
professions kind of being taken 

1244
01:11:20,040 --> 01:11:23,760
over by AI, if you're still 
remaining, you're going to be 

1245
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:26,400
working alongside side AI or 
with AI. 

1246
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:30,800
So that's also another, you 
know, that's another source of 

1247
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,720
fracturing relationships with 
other humans, potentially 

1248
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,440
because you're spending more 
time in a screen, you know? 

1249
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:39,840
Your new Co worker, yeah 
exactly, may not be human. 

1250
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:42,560
It may not be human right. 
I think it's already happening. 

1251
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:44,840
There are there are companies 
and organizations where they're 

1252
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:49,040
where they're that there are. 
He raises like massive 

1253
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:50,960
implications based on literally 
everything. 

1254
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:57,560
Everything we just talked about.
So that is scary and you know, 

1255
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:02,640
the ultimately, you know, we 
might be setting conditions for 

1256
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:06,640
a lot of societal upheaval and 
and it could be really 

1257
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,040
challenging and and getting back
to that question of, you know, 

1258
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:13,480
this evolution is not 
accelerating to, you know, to 

1259
01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:17,040
keep up. 
So and even culture isn't. 

1260
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:22,200
And so like this is happening so
fast that our ability to, to 

1261
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:27,200
adapt, I think is, well, we'll, 
we shall see. 

1262
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:31,240
But it, it, it is something that
humans have not had to adapt to 

1263
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:34,840
that pace and magnitude of 
change, you know, of 

1264
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:40,520
expectations for life. 
I mean everything. 

1265
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:44,320
The reordering of society from 
from birth to death. 

1266
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:46,840
You know, but I do love 
education. 

1267
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:48,640
Everything. 
Yeah, Everything, yeah. 

1268
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:51,760
Work, life, the whole thing. 
But I do love what you started 

1269
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:55,120
with, which was that, you know, 
as as human evolution sort of 

1270
01:12:56,360 --> 01:13:00,560
inches along and technological 
evolution is is. 

1271
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,840
Yeah, increasingly a hockey 
stick. 

1272
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:04,680
Yes. 
What bridges that gap? 

1273
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:06,240
If I had a third arm. 
Yeah. 

1274
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,360
Could very. 
I think that's what we really 

1275
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,560
need, leadership. 
Yeah, we really need leaders 

1276
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:14,640
for. 
And that that that's the message

1277
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:18,320
in in this book as well. 
So that was the first question, 

1278
01:13:18,320 --> 01:13:19,800
the second. 
One that's keeping up at night 

1279
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:21,840
about. 
I guess I would say like, I, I 

1280
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:23,440
mean, I'm excited about all the 
work we're doing. 

1281
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,160
I think it's, I don't know, 
we're doing some really bleeding

1282
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:32,000
edge work where we're actually 
combining AI and neuroscience 

1283
01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:36,120
into to create new kinds of 
models, which we call human 

1284
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:39,320
brain digital twin. 
Human brain, so everybody's. 

1285
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:41,560
Talking about digital twins, 
which is like, but, but it's 

1286
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:45,640
based purely on, you know, it's 
like I I've run this video, you 

1287
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,560
know, this podcast through an AI
that's going to pull out all the

1288
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:52,640
visual features, what's 
happening and all the and, and, 

1289
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,800
and sentiments and text, right 
And it's it can digest that and 

1290
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:58,640
you know, yeah, essentially 
create a replica of us and our 

1291
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:01,840
interactions. 
What we do is we take that, but 

1292
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:06,440
we also passive brain data like 
so we started this in an in 

1293
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:09,760
media like advertising and and 
TV shows and whatnot. 

1294
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,560
You just have people watching 
this stuff and and then we're 

1295
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:17,240
trying to predict things like 
sales, you know, out in the 

1296
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,800
marketplace and even change in 
stock prices and things like 

1297
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:24,480
that. 
So you know, the AI, you know, 

1298
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:27,960
regular old digital twin, 
regular old digital twin, this 

1299
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:31,400
does it OK, does pretty good. 
The brain data does better on 

1300
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:35,000
its own, but when you combine 
them and create a new model, a 

1301
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:40,360
new deep neural network model, 
that is like super powerful. 

1302
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:43,280
From a predictive intelligence. 
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. 

1303
01:14:43,280 --> 01:14:49,000
So once we had that foundation, 
we're now deploying that kind of

1304
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,240
platform for other uses. 
So in one case, you know, 

1305
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:56,640
working with a major global 
financial services company to 

1306
01:14:56,640 --> 01:15:00,640
help them develop a new product,
which essentially a, a financial

1307
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:06,080
companion that lives in your 
phone that will be personalized 

1308
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:08,160
so that it is, it doesn't feel 
like you're banking. 

1309
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,920
It's like your friend, but it's 
a it's, but it's also a 

1310
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:15,000
financial planner when it makes 
you engaged and you feel great 

1311
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,360
and you're getting the daily 
wins, like I got a Starbucks 

1312
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:20,680
coffee or whatever, but also 
feel secure, like Peace of Mind 

1313
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:23,040
that things are going to be good
for retirement, right? 

1314
01:15:23,480 --> 01:15:25,600
And, you know, so it's, it's 
going to listen to all your 

1315
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:30,320
aspirations and, you know, 
figure you out, create a digital

1316
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:34,680
twin of your brain right to then
that's what we'll sort of live 

1317
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:36,280
in there. 
And we're, we're doing this 

1318
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:39,120
incredible applying this in 
other, you know, for other, you 

1319
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:43,560
could imagine, just sort of 
lather, rinse and repeat a whole

1320
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:48,520
variety, you know, true human 
brain, digital twin of great 

1321
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:51,480
leaders, for example. 
So this, this will leave me to 

1322
01:15:51,480 --> 01:15:53,760
like, if I, you know, I'm giving
you 2 answers for each of these 

1323
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:56,920
questions, but the other one is 
like I, if I put my real 

1324
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,440
optimist hat on, maybe we thread
the needle just right. 

1325
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:05,200
Maybe that actually lets us get 
back to the basics of life, the 

1326
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:07,960
things that really matter, like 
human interaction, human 

1327
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:11,120
relationships, community, 
spirituality, I would say is 

1328
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:16,280
part of that because we don't 
have to do the work, right? 

1329
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:19,360
I mean, yeah, we derive identity
and, and some pleasure I have 

1330
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:20,840
from work. 
But why don't we like work in 

1331
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:22,840
the garden together? 
Or you know. 

1332
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:26,600
Instead of completing our our 
weekly report. 

1333
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,720
Yeah, or like, OK, now you know 
what, instead I'm going to focus

1334
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:33,480
my my time and energy on playing
music with other people. 

1335
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:37,400
Or, you know, it's kind of like,
you know, the utopia of Star 

1336
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:40,560
Trek, you know, the original 
Gene Roddenberry, you know, 

1337
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:43,360
which is like all needs are 
taken care of. 

1338
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:47,400
And so your your job is just be 
the best you you can be, right. 

1339
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:49,520
So that. 
Would be really interesting. 

1340
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,720
That would be awesome. 
I don't, you know, I'm trying to

1341
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:55,360
wear my optimist hat as much as 
I can. 

1342
01:16:56,440 --> 01:16:57,800
It's usually not first thing in 
the morning. 

1343
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:01,080
Usually it's more of like AI 
Doomer, you know, reading, 

1344
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:03,280
reading whatever happened, what,
you know, yesterday. 

1345
01:17:04,480 --> 01:17:06,360
OK. 
So those are two questions and 

1346
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:08,080
the third one, the third one was
just. 

1347
01:17:08,360 --> 01:17:10,640
Like, you know, what advice 
would you give? 

1348
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:14,800
You know, imagine you're sitting
at Huntsman Hall in front of our

1349
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:19,560
many students that will go on 
to, you know, 10 years from now,

1350
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:24,560
be CEOs, leaders in the world. 
What advice would you give them 

1351
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:25,640
now? 
Yeah. 

1352
01:17:26,440 --> 01:17:29,520
You know, I think that my 
experience with the students at 

1353
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:32,760
Wharton undergrad and MBA is 
they they kind of get it like 

1354
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,520
they especially MBA students, 
they spend most of their time 

1355
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:39,160
networking. 
And I think, you know, you could

1356
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:42,080
say that that's like, well, I 
don't know, it's it's like 

1357
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:45,840
skeevy somehow, because it's 
just about like knowing those 

1358
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:47,120
people. 
Who knows who? 

1359
01:17:47,120 --> 01:17:50,720
But but if you're doing it 
really sincerely and sincerity 

1360
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:54,440
is a big part of to get the most
out of this, you know, health 

1361
01:17:54,440 --> 01:17:55,840
wise, brain health wise, 
etcetera. 

1362
01:17:56,280 --> 01:18:00,320
But you know, really getting a 
strong foundation in in social 

1363
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:01,920
emotional skills. 
That's going to be the key to 

1364
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:04,600
leadership. 
It already is, but it even more 

1365
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:09,480
so into the future. 
Also key to resilience. 

1366
01:18:10,480 --> 01:18:13,800
That is, you know, I think 
probably the number one 

1367
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:18,760
cornerstone, you know, our we're
wired to connect and that is the

1368
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,720
key to our resilience as 
individuals and as a species. 

1369
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:25,480
You know why we're still here? 
On the certainly the case with 

1370
01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:29,600
the monkeys, yeah, I mean it was
the social brain and the social 

1371
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:34,840
connection which was the highest
correlated feature that, you 

1372
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:37,480
know, determines survival or 
demise and. 

1373
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:40,760
The power of us. 
United we stand, divided we 

1374
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:46,040
fall. 
Wow, so so really it would be 

1375
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:52,720
double down on connection, yes 
and keep growing that social 

1376
01:18:52,720 --> 01:18:55,120
brain network yes and think of 
it as a muscle. 

1377
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:58,840
It's not, it's not a, it's a. 
Use it or lose it, you know? 

1378
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:03,240
Yeah, it, it is, you know, I 
think this is, you know, advice 

1379
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:06,480
to everybody, you know, is, is 
like, we're always looking for 

1380
01:19:06,480 --> 01:19:09,400
the easy way out. 
Take a pill to get, you know, 

1381
01:19:09,640 --> 01:19:11,920
Yeah. 
Skinny or to get ripped, you 

1382
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:17,040
know or AI to do your work for 
you but you know you got to do 

1383
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:20,080
the hard work like if. 
Is the social brain Ozempic? 

1384
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:23,360
No, there's social brain 
exempic. 

1385
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:26,000
You know, it's like if you want 
to, you know, compete at the 

1386
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:29,680
highest levels in sport, you 
know, you're going to have to 

1387
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,000
show you're a hockey player. 
Let's say, you know, show up at 

1388
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:33,200
5:00 AM or whatever. 
You. 

1389
01:19:33,440 --> 01:19:34,360
You no. 
Escaping. 

1390
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:35,840
No escaping, you've got to do 
it. 

1391
01:19:37,800 --> 01:19:43,360
And you know, the same is true 
for, for life and for, for our 

1392
01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:45,360
ability to connect with each 
other and live with each other 

1393
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,480
and work with each other. 
Incredible advice. 

1394
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:52,960
We covered a lot of ground, a 
lot of ground and and yet we 

1395
01:19:52,960 --> 01:20:03,320
land in a very simple place that
arguably would be the answer 

1396
01:20:03,320 --> 01:20:06,120
for. 
Hundreds and thousands of years 

1397
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:10,160
back and and despite the 
complexity of our times and the 

1398
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,600
fact that in two years from now 
they're probably be robots in 

1399
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:19,680
this room and all over, it's 
still about exercise, that 

1400
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:25,040
social brain establish human 
connection and and repeat and 

1401
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:29,040
repeat and grow. 
Yeah, I love that we stuck the 

1402
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:32,080
landing. 
All right, What's the Olympic 

1403
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:34,600
metaphor? 
Thank you so much, Michael. 

1404
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,680
This was a fantastic experience.
I feel like we've gone on a 

1405
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:42,400
journey. 
And if you haven't had a chance 

1406
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:46,800
to read the the Leader's Brain, 
this has been updated and 

1407
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:49,160
expanded. 
I have the I've, I've just 

1408
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:51,080
finished the original now. 
I got a this one. 

1409
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:52,520
Yeah, absolutely. 
This is yours. 

1410
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:54,520
Oh, thank you. 
Thank you. 

1411
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:56,200
Yeah, I'll take it. 
No, it's good. 

1412
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,200
And thank you so much, Michael. 
Thank you. 

1413
01:21:00,200 --> 01:21:03,560
Such a pleasure to be here, as 
always, to get to hang with you,

1414
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:04,240
Jonathan.