1
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,440
Hello. 
Jonathan Kirschner here. 

2
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,720
This is a podcast 
 about 
leadership. 

3
00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:27,880
I'm here with Jamie Ramsden. 
Jamie is, a former CEO, a 

4
00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,225
leadership adviser, and and a 
close friend. 

5
00:00:33,225 --> 00:00:40,000
And there's no one I 
 can think
of who I'd rather have this type

6
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,145
of 
 podcast session with than 
Jamie Ramsden. 

7
00:00:43,145 --> 00:00:49,450
And so we're gonna cover a lot 
of ground, but there are three 

8
00:00:49,450 --> 00:00:51,730
big areas 
 we're gonna cover 
today. 

9
00:00:51,930 --> 00:00:59,255
Life, love, and leadership. 
Life, love, and leadership, 
 

10
00:00:59,263 --> 00:01:01,575
three small topics. 
Welcome, Jamie. 

11
00:01:01,575 --> 00:01:04,110
Thank you. 
Thank you for for being here on 

12
00:01:04,110 --> 00:01:08,966
 a podcast about leadership and 
and being such a 
 incredible, 

13
00:01:08,966 --> 00:01:12,485
incredible cherished friend. 
And it's really awesome to 
 be 

14
00:01:12,485 --> 00:01:14,220
on this journey with you. 
Thank you. 

15
00:01:14,220 --> 00:01:20,440
Jamie does 
 have his book here.
Let's Go is How Leaders How 
 

16
00:01:20,448 --> 00:01:24,416
Great Leaders Shape the Future 
Which is such 
 a beautiful 

17
00:01:24,416 --> 00:01:26,265
title. 
And we'll obviously be touching 

18
00:01:26,265 --> 00:01:28,145
 on various aspects of that. 
Alright. 

19
00:01:28,145 --> 00:01:32,840
Let me ask you. 
What has failure taught you 
 

20
00:01:32,848 --> 00:01:39,300
that success never could? 
When you fail you you feel 

21
00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:40,210
something. 
Right? 

22
00:01:40,210 --> 00:01:42,800
Like, you you 
 feel it's rough.
Right? 

23
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:50,235
And but, you know, failure to 
 
the extent that it goes examined

24
00:01:50,235 --> 00:01:56,046
and it 
 becomes this learning 
opportunity, actually, 
 usually

25
00:01:56,046 --> 00:02:03,865
turns out to be the reason why 

something becomes so successful 

26
00:02:03,865 --> 00:02:09,527
subsequently. 
And, you know, it's it's 
 it's 

27
00:02:09,527 --> 00:02:11,346
interesting. 
Like, I coach a lot of leaders. 

28
00:02:11,346 --> 00:02:12,600
 
You coach a lot of leaders. 

29
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,460
I hire leaders. 
When when I ask people 
 about 

30
00:02:16,460 --> 00:02:22,811
their greatest achievements, 
usually it sort of hatched From 

31
00:02:22,811 --> 00:02:27,805
failure Which 
 is really which 
is really interesting actually. 

32
00:02:27,805 --> 00:02:32,877
Right? 
So failure what what I've 

33
00:02:32,877 --> 00:02:38,350
learned 
 about failure is that 
it it's it's a failure if you 

34
00:02:39,270 --> 00:02:46,310
just sit on it, stew on it, and 
feel terrible, 
 and then try to

35
00:02:46,310 --> 00:02:48,965
just move on, then 
 it's a 
failure. 

36
00:02:50,205 --> 00:02:56,153
It becomes the impetus 
 for 
success if it is examined and 

37
00:02:56,153 --> 00:03:00,809
converted 
 into a learning 
opportunity, and then 
 it 

38
00:03:00,809 --> 00:03:04,470
becomes a gem. 
And and that's that's 
 how I've

39
00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:07,300
experienced it. 
How about you? 

40
00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:10,069
Yeah. 
Well, I think I think your point

41
00:03:10,069 --> 00:03:13,633

 about defining what those 
words mean is a really valid one

42
00:03:13,633 --> 00:03:17,189

 because most of the people I 
work with and I if I 
 think 

43
00:03:17,189 --> 00:03:20,194
about my experience, let me just
talk 
 about my experience, many

44
00:03:20,194 --> 00:03:22,525
of the external 
 
accomplishments that people 

45
00:03:22,525 --> 00:03:26,165
would attribute to being to 
 
success, in inverted commas, 

46
00:03:27,170 --> 00:03:30,462
They're multidimensional. 
It's not as simplistic 
 as, you

47
00:03:30,462 --> 00:03:34,336
know, I won a medal and then my 
life was 
 beautiful from that 

48
00:03:34,336 --> 00:03:37,210
moment onwards. 
There's so much more complexity 

49
00:03:38,290 --> 00:03:42,881
to you know, I think 
 about my 
life, you know, sort of becoming

50
00:03:42,881 --> 00:03:45,345
a chief 
 executive a fairly 
early age. 

51
00:03:45,345 --> 00:03:47,688
But, you know, so well, that 
could be a 
 definition of 

52
00:03:47,688 --> 00:03:50,045
success. 
But there were other things that

53
00:03:50,045 --> 00:03:53,649

 happened that were, you know, 
which were which made that 
 

54
00:03:53,657 --> 00:03:56,985
outward appearance of success 
something less successful. 

55
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,240
So you wouldn't define it 
 
necessarily as failure, but I 

56
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,134
think the idea of just 
 sort of
saying failure and success seem 

57
00:04:03,134 --> 00:04:06,560
to me to be 
 very binary 
definitions, and I think that 

58
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,000
life 
 is beautifully complex, 
and the human condition 
 is 

59
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,725
beautifully complex. 
You know, it's never 
 one 

60
00:04:10,725 --> 00:04:12,787
without the other. 
They're so close and 
 

61
00:04:12,795 --> 00:04:15,165
integrated, and actually, it's 
the synthesis and 
 integration 

62
00:04:15,165 --> 00:04:20,875
of what is perceived as success 
or failure that that leads to 

63
00:04:20,875 --> 00:04:25,090
the 
 kind of lifetime learning,
the evolution of self. 

64
00:04:25,090 --> 00:04:27,810
I haven't met anybody who 
 
didn't evolve as a human being, 

65
00:04:27,810 --> 00:04:31,679
who didn't have some 
 kind of 
failure, some kind of issue that

66
00:04:31,679 --> 00:04:33,730
they 
 had to integrate and 
learn from. 

67
00:04:33,730 --> 00:04:36,917
And so if I'm, again, bringing 

back to my own experience, know,

68
00:04:36,917 --> 00:04:39,575
when I was a kid, I I 
 was 
really afraid of heights. 

69
00:04:39,575 --> 00:04:42,537
I had a strong fear of heights. 
Didn't have much, you know, that

70
00:04:42,537 --> 00:04:43,815

 I was, you know, anxious 
about. 

71
00:04:43,815 --> 00:04:46,515
But fight heights was really 
 
something that really bothered 

72
00:04:46,515 --> 00:04:49,003
me. 
And so, you know, in heights, 
 

73
00:04:49,011 --> 00:04:52,582
in some people's, you know, fear
of heights is a 
 fear of 

74
00:04:52,582 --> 00:04:54,206
failure manifest. 
Like, that's there's a 

75
00:04:54,206 --> 00:04:56,404
connection 
 or correlation 
between those two things because

76
00:04:56,404 --> 00:04:58,830
they 
 both involve failing. 
One is metaphorical, the 
 other

77
00:04:58,830 --> 00:05:00,270
one is quite physical. 
Oh, sorry. 

78
00:05:00,270 --> 00:05:00,798
Falling. 
Falling. 

79
00:05:00,798 --> 00:05:01,374
Falling. 
 
Right. 

80
00:05:01,374 --> 00:05:01,950
Right. 
Falling. 

81
00:05:01,950 --> 00:05:04,350
Metaphysical, like, in 
 my life
very early on. 

82
00:05:04,350 --> 00:05:08,205
I remember going to the 
 
tallest roller coaster. 

83
00:05:08,205 --> 00:05:10,245
I go with my friends to the 
 
tallest roller coaster in Europe

84
00:05:10,245 --> 00:05:12,126
at the time. 
It was in a place called 
 

85
00:05:12,134 --> 00:05:14,205
Blackpool in England. 
And they all went on the thing, 

86
00:05:14,205 --> 00:05:16,765
and I didn't go 
 because I was 
afraid. 

87
00:05:16,765 --> 00:05:20,949
And they did two cycles, and I 
was sitting here saying, 
 what 

88
00:05:20,949 --> 00:05:23,283
exactly are you afraid of? 
And it was a very 
 visceral 

89
00:05:23,283 --> 00:05:24,928
moment. 
I mean, at the time, you 
 don't

90
00:05:24,928 --> 00:05:27,148
really think about it, but when 
you look back, 
 maybe it is 

91
00:05:27,148 --> 00:05:28,460
more so. 
And I just said, you know what? 

92
00:05:28,460 --> 00:05:30,380
I'm gonna go and do it. 
 
I'm just gonna push myself. 

93
00:05:30,380 --> 00:05:32,220
What's the worst 
 that can 
happen, and what's gonna 
 what 

94
00:05:32,220 --> 00:05:34,510
am I gonna do? 
And in that moment, like, got 
 

95
00:05:34,518 --> 00:05:37,025
off at the end, I was like, oh, 
it wasn't that bad. 

96
00:05:37,025 --> 00:05:40,096
Actually, it was quite fun. 
And I think that, in my 
 mind, 

97
00:05:40,096 --> 00:05:42,725
that was, you know, how you take
something that is 
 a fear of 

98
00:05:42,725 --> 00:05:46,901
failure or a fear of, you know, 
falling, and you overcome it in 

99
00:05:46,901 --> 00:05:50,040
a 
 very controlled manner. 
It wasn't like you know, 
 I 

100
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,420
wasn't solo, you know, sailing 
around the world. 

101
00:05:52,420 --> 00:05:54,900
I was literally just 
 getting 
on a roller coaster. 

102
00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:57,357
But in that moment, 
 in 
overcoming that, I think that 

103
00:05:57,357 --> 00:06:00,217
really set a 
 pathway for me to
be able to say, when the next 

104
00:06:00,217 --> 00:06:03,720
time 
 you feel this same sense 
of feeling, just 
 remember this

105
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,041
moment, and you can overcome it.
And I think there's something 
 

106
00:06:07,049 --> 00:06:09,265
in this failure success. 
If you're not thinking 
 about 

107
00:06:09,265 --> 00:06:13,045
it in binary terms, most of life
has lots 
 of dimensions to it. 

108
00:06:13,165 --> 00:06:19,937
And, you know, and so the the 
 
idea of being one or the other 

109
00:06:19,937 --> 00:06:24,566
versus being 
 a multiplicity of
different dimensions 
 around, 

110
00:06:24,566 --> 00:06:27,510
you know, an activity or an 
 
accomplishment that can include 

111
00:06:27,510 --> 00:06:30,224
failure and success, I think 
that gives you a bit more 

112
00:06:30,224 --> 00:06:32,285
freedom 
 to be able to just go 
and explore. 

113
00:06:32,285 --> 00:06:36,505
Absolutely. 
I mean, I think you're you're 
 

114
00:06:36,513 --> 00:06:40,447
you brought up another important
topic, which is sort 
 of, like,

115
00:06:40,447 --> 00:06:43,485
in some ways, you gotta take 
some risk. 

116
00:06:43,485 --> 00:06:50,960
Right? 
And and you can't truly 
 grow 

117
00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,545
without taking some risk, 
without leaving 
 your sphere of

118
00:06:56,545 --> 00:06:59,385
comfort. 
Now, you can go too far. 

119
00:06:59,385 --> 00:07:01,249
Yeah. 
You can take too you know, 
 so 

120
00:07:01,249 --> 00:07:03,805
there's a calculation. 
It's like, I'm outside 
 of my 

121
00:07:03,805 --> 00:07:10,005
comfort zone, but but close 
enough that it I can take this 

122
00:07:10,005 --> 00:07:12,914
risk. 
But but ultimately, you know, if

123
00:07:12,914 --> 00:07:19,280
I think about any growth 
discontinuous growth experience,

124
00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,615
it it comes about 
 through 
taking some risk. 

125
00:07:24,615 --> 00:07:27,215
Right? 
Some some 
 measure of risk. 

126
00:07:27,255 --> 00:07:31,802
And and I think going 
 back to 
failure, it it it's all about 

127
00:07:31,802 --> 00:07:32,455
learning. 
Right? 

128
00:07:32,455 --> 00:07:36,473
That's what it is. 
If if you don't orient 
 with a 

129
00:07:36,473 --> 00:07:40,436
learning mindset, then then it 
truly 
 becomes a failure, and 

130
00:07:40,436 --> 00:07:44,180
and then you probably avoid 
 
everything associated with that.

131
00:07:44,180 --> 00:07:48,700
Right? 
But if you utilize learning, 

132
00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:52,595
then you either go right back 
 
up at it or go right back up at 

133
00:07:52,595 --> 00:07:56,694
it in a different way, or you 
 
clarify for yourself, you know 

134
00:07:56,694 --> 00:08:00,725
what? 
That is not for me. 

135
00:08:00,725 --> 00:08:03,797
But this is. 
And then you get more focused 
 

136
00:08:03,805 --> 00:08:08,290
on something that that is more 
core to your identity. 

137
00:08:08,890 --> 00:08:10,810
Yeah. 
It's like Edison's version 
 of,

138
00:08:10,810 --> 00:08:13,784
like, you know, I failed nine 
hundred and ninety nine 
 times 

139
00:08:13,784 --> 00:08:15,930
to be able to succeed once. 
To be able to succeed. 

140
00:08:15,930 --> 00:08:18,085
Yeah. 
That's a really 
 tangible 

141
00:08:18,085 --> 00:08:20,678
example of it. 
So let me ask you 
 another 

142
00:08:20,678 --> 00:08:23,439
question. 
When did you last 
 feel 

143
00:08:23,439 --> 00:08:25,775
genuinely lost? 
When did you feel lost? 

144
00:08:25,775 --> 00:08:28,335
Did the work save you, 
 or was 
it the problem? 

145
00:08:28,335 --> 00:08:33,355
There's there's moments 
 where 
we're we're heads down and and 

146
00:08:33,355 --> 00:08:37,804
executing, and and 
 and 
sometimes it goes the way you 

147
00:08:37,804 --> 00:08:41,484
want it to go, and sometimes it 
it goes a little 
 sideways or 

148
00:08:41,484 --> 00:08:45,485
or you hit a bump. 
And then there's those moments 


149
00:08:45,493 --> 00:08:50,332
where we it's like, where am I? 
Who am I? 

150
00:08:50,332 --> 00:08:55,905
Is this for me? 
And, you know, to to me, that's 

151
00:08:55,905 --> 00:08:58,863
 those are like, you know, 
thankfully, the few, 
 but but 

152
00:08:58,863 --> 00:09:00,072
they happen. 
Right? 

153
00:09:00,072 --> 00:09:07,290
They happen. 
And and usually, you know, it is

154
00:09:09,410 --> 00:09:18,985
preceding a a a an important 
developmental, like, milestone 

155
00:09:18,985 --> 00:09:20,665
or decision. 
Right? 

156
00:09:20,665 --> 00:09:23,881
Where we you sort of like, you 
know, 
 you're familiar with, 

157
00:09:23,881 --> 00:09:27,385
like, the Eric Erickson's 
 
developmental framework. 

158
00:09:27,385 --> 00:09:29,650
You can feel a little lost. 
Right? 

159
00:09:29,650 --> 00:09:33,010
You can feel a lost. 
I meant, you know, if I could 
 

160
00:09:33,018 --> 00:09:37,024
think about, the time I had to, 
let go of somebody, 
 of an of 

161
00:09:37,024 --> 00:09:37,930
an employee. 
Right? 

162
00:09:37,930 --> 00:09:40,448
The first time. 
I actually feel it all the 
 

163
00:09:40,456 --> 00:09:43,640
time when I feel like a COVID 
employee, but the 
 first time I

164
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:51,154
had to, you know, part ways 
 
with someone and, you know, I 

165
00:09:51,154 --> 00:09:57,354
was really I was 
 I mean, I 
didn't sleep, and I was, like, 

166
00:09:57,354 --> 00:10:02,070
in a 
 huge amount of, like, 
distress about doing this. 

167
00:10:02,070 --> 00:10:04,390
And it would it would, like, on 
 paper, it's absolutely clear. 

168
00:10:04,390 --> 00:10:07,366
Like, this, you know, this 
individual was not a 
 fit on 

169
00:10:07,366 --> 00:10:11,750
just about every dimension that,
it would be required for a 

170
00:10:11,750 --> 00:10:19,435
successful working relationship.
And, and yet, I couldn't get 

171
00:10:19,435 --> 00:10:24,385
over 
 the human, you know, cost
here. 

172
00:10:24,385 --> 00:10:27,385
You know, this would have 
 an 
impact on the individual, 

173
00:10:27,385 --> 00:10:31,480
obviously, their family. 
It would be hurtful. 

174
00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:40,375
And I just I couldn't shake it. 
And and it was really, 
 really,

175
00:10:40,375 --> 00:10:45,925
really hard. 
But ultimately, underlying that 

176
00:10:46,365 --> 00:10:55,380
was a dilemma, which was, am I 
solving for the broader 

177
00:10:55,380 --> 00:10:59,100
organization 
 And the business 
and what's best for the 

178
00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:03,235
business? 
Or am I solving for 
 this 

179
00:11:03,235 --> 00:11:08,971
individual, and their needs? 
And then when when you 
 when 

180
00:11:08,971 --> 00:11:13,135
you have that clarity, you do 
ultimately 
 need to choose. 

181
00:11:13,735 --> 00:11:16,249
And this is like one of 
 the 
hardest things, by the way, I 

182
00:11:16,249 --> 00:11:20,503
think of being a leader. 
Because to be a leader, you have

183
00:11:20,503 --> 00:11:23,470
to you have 
 to love the 
people. 

184
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:26,390
But what does that really mean? 
Right. 

185
00:11:26,390 --> 00:11:29,602
Because if you truly 
 love the 
people, you would never part 
 

186
00:11:29,610 --> 00:11:32,385
ways with somebody. 
Even if they were wildly 
 

187
00:11:32,393 --> 00:11:33,895
underperforming or even hurting 
you. 

188
00:11:33,895 --> 00:11:37,175
You would not part ways 
 
because you love them. 

189
00:11:37,175 --> 00:11:40,220
And love in its extreme 
 is 
unconditional. 

190
00:11:40,220 --> 00:11:44,349
Right? 
And so how do you 
 be a human 

191
00:11:44,349 --> 00:11:50,572
first leader and and and have 
 
compassion and love, and at the 

192
00:11:50,572 --> 00:11:54,560
same time prioritize what's best
for the 
 business because 

193
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,660
ultimately leadership is 
actualizing a 
 clear and 

194
00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:00,100
compelling vision through 
others. 

195
00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:04,755
Right? 
It is moving worlds. 

196
00:12:04,755 --> 00:12:11,435
It's mountains to achieve 
something through others. 

197
00:12:11,955 --> 00:12:16,874
And if you're CEO 
 or you're a 
leader within the organization, 

198
00:12:16,874 --> 00:12:21,790
 your job is to move it. 
Your job is to actualize. 

199
00:12:21,830 --> 00:12:24,554
Right? 
Your job isn't to solve 
 for 

200
00:12:24,554 --> 00:12:28,945
the feelings of somebody. 
That doesn't mean 
 you should 

201
00:12:28,945 --> 00:12:36,345
be a jerk or uncompassionate. 
But it means the level of 

202
00:12:36,345 --> 00:12:40,385
priority is I 
 have to do 
what's right for the business 

203
00:12:40,385 --> 00:12:41,945
first. 
Right? 

204
00:12:42,065 --> 00:12:46,050
And and that was like 
 a really
hard call. 

205
00:12:46,050 --> 00:12:53,265
It brought up all 
 sorts of 
values I had to reconcile 
 with

206
00:12:53,265 --> 00:12:57,210
all of that. 
And once I made the decision, 

207
00:13:01,075 --> 00:13:03,795
you know, the next 
 day, I'm 
like, wow. 

208
00:13:03,795 --> 00:13:08,242
It feels a lot lighter. 
Everything is so 
 clear right 

209
00:13:08,242 --> 00:13:10,300
now. 
Still felt bad. 

210
00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:12,475
Right? 
 
How could you not? 

211
00:13:12,675 --> 00:13:18,380
But I was unstuck. 
I was unstuck from that dilemma.

212
00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:23,836
And and that those moments, you 
can think of it as 
 the moments

213
00:13:23,836 --> 00:13:31,515
that matter. 
They become beyond clarifying. 

214
00:13:31,515 --> 00:13:36,275
They become defining 
 of your 
identity. 

215
00:13:36,315 --> 00:13:38,235
And they happen. 
They 
 don't happen all the 

216
00:13:38,235 --> 00:13:40,296
time. 
But there are moments that 
 

217
00:13:40,304 --> 00:13:47,400
really rub up on your values and
force you to clarify and and to 

218
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,520
define your 
 identity and your 
path. 

219
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:52,787
Yeah. 
I think it's 
 something, you 

220
00:13:52,787 --> 00:13:56,794
know, that's I can relate 
 to 
as well is, like, having been in

221
00:13:56,794 --> 00:14:00,027
that experience 
 where you have
to you know, you kinda have to 


222
00:14:00,035 --> 00:14:00,875
make those calls. 
Right? 

223
00:14:00,875 --> 00:14:02,975
No one's gonna 
 make them for 
you. 

224
00:14:02,975 --> 00:14:08,510
And you have to try 
 and do 
things I mean, you have to make 

225
00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:12,350
decisions that 
 are in the best
interests of the majority of the

226
00:14:12,350 --> 00:14:16,630
people 
 who you've been elected
or nominated to represent. 

227
00:14:16,910 --> 00:14:19,925
And that can be super 
 
challenging at times when you're

228
00:14:19,925 --> 00:14:23,615
in these moments 
 where, you 
know, where you can see 
 

229
00:14:23,623 --> 00:14:26,095
somebody's value, you can see 
that 
 they're a human being, 

230
00:14:26,095 --> 00:14:28,735
you can be compassionate and 
 
understand and empathetic about 

231
00:14:28,735 --> 00:14:33,287
who they are and what it 
 can 
mean to them, and yet, you know,

232
00:14:33,287 --> 00:14:39,070
you still 
 have to make a call.
And you gotta make the call. 

233
00:14:39,070 --> 00:14:41,364
And you know what? 
This is the thing that 
 they 

234
00:14:41,364 --> 00:14:43,262
don't teach you. 
I mean, there's no there's 
 no 

235
00:14:43,262 --> 00:14:44,190
school for leadership. 
Right? 

236
00:14:44,190 --> 00:14:48,430
I mean, you can go, you know, 
get get an MBA and take 
 a 

237
00:14:48,430 --> 00:14:50,984
class on leadership. 
There's really no 
 school for 

238
00:14:50,984 --> 00:14:53,695
leadership. 
You sort of learn leadership 
 

239
00:14:53,703 --> 00:14:58,933
by doing, having good mentors, 
and usually making 
 a lot of 

240
00:14:58,933 --> 00:14:59,978
mistakes. 
Yeah. 

241
00:14:59,978 --> 00:15:02,395
So, you know, I 
 I Having good 
coach? 

242
00:15:02,395 --> 00:15:04,910
Having a good coach. 
That that that helps a lot. 

243
00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:06,110
Helpful. 
Helps a lot. 

244
00:15:06,110 --> 00:15:11,610
But, yeah. 
I mean, I had I had 
 a 

245
00:15:11,610 --> 00:15:17,124
situation where I I didn't let 
go of a person that I should 

246
00:15:17,124 --> 00:15:23,145
have let go Of. 
And the, the individual, such a 

247
00:15:23,145 --> 00:15:28,092
 such an amazing person, but 
wasn't delivering Against 

248
00:15:28,092 --> 00:15:30,525
expectations 
 that were made 
clear. 

249
00:15:30,645 --> 00:15:33,045
And we just said, let's just 
 
give it another quarter. 

250
00:15:33,045 --> 00:15:35,130
Let's give it another 
 quarter.
We this it'll happen. 

251
00:15:35,130 --> 00:15:36,510
It'll happen. 
Come on. 

252
00:15:36,510 --> 00:15:38,490
And and you 
 know what 
happened? 

253
00:15:38,490 --> 00:15:41,850
We ended up losing two 
 of our 
best people. 

254
00:15:41,850 --> 00:15:47,233
Because they said if this is if 
this is what 
 performance is 

255
00:15:47,233 --> 00:15:52,474
Right. 
Then then I'd rather work in 
 a

256
00:15:52,474 --> 00:15:56,525
place that that appreciates my 
gifts and and that 
 rewards me 

257
00:15:56,525 --> 00:15:59,770
in kind. 
And it's it's it was a 
 tough 

258
00:15:59,770 --> 00:16:02,130
it was a tough lesson. 
Yeah. 

259
00:16:02,130 --> 00:16:05,750
And I think I led that one 
 the
hard way the same way, hanging 

260
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:08,469
on to people. 
Most of the folks I work with 
 

261
00:16:08,477 --> 00:16:12,819
will say the regrets that they 
had was not being able to make 


262
00:16:12,827 --> 00:16:16,355
that decision sooner because 
ultimately culture 
 is what you

263
00:16:16,355 --> 00:16:17,075
tolerate. 
Right? 

264
00:16:17,075 --> 00:16:20,275
Somebody said that, but culture 
ends up being what you're 
 

265
00:16:20,283 --> 00:16:23,811
prepared or willing to tolerate.
And I think when I was 
 really 

266
00:16:23,811 --> 00:16:29,857
young in my career, in my 
tenure, you know, I was more I 

267
00:16:29,857 --> 00:16:33,180
was more likely to try and 
 
give folks the benefit of the 

268
00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:35,180
doubt and try and 
 course 
correct. 

269
00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:37,660
And I think sometimes your 
 
instincts develop over time 

270
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:40,140
where you can see where 
 
something's not working. 

271
00:16:40,140 --> 00:16:42,860
You can still and I 
 always 
this is my framing. 

272
00:16:42,860 --> 00:16:47,402
It was that the way I justify 
 
their humanity is to treat them 

273
00:16:47,402 --> 00:16:50,815
with compassion 
 through the 
process, is to be empathetic 
 

274
00:16:50,823 --> 00:16:53,575
to their needs, to be 
sympathetic 
 to their 

275
00:16:53,575 --> 00:16:56,200
situation, and to treat them 
 
with compassion, even if the 

276
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,010
decision 
 is a hard one. 
And it can seem 
 

277
00:16:59,018 --> 00:17:01,584
counterintuitive to say, well, 
if you love somebody, then 
 you

278
00:17:01,584 --> 00:17:04,242
shouldn't, you know, make bad 
decisions or 
 give them the 

279
00:17:04,242 --> 00:17:06,182
hard truths. 
But you can synthesize 
 and 

280
00:17:06,182 --> 00:17:08,170
integrate that, and it's about 
the how. 

281
00:17:08,170 --> 00:17:12,319
It's about how you treat people.
That doesn't change even if 
 

282
00:17:12,328 --> 00:17:15,425
you're giving them bad news. 
Yes. 

283
00:17:15,425 --> 00:17:18,545
And and but the hard part, 
 you
you just backing up, like, 

284
00:17:18,545 --> 00:17:21,984
you're you shared, like, 
 you 
got ultimately, you've gotta 

285
00:17:21,984 --> 00:17:26,280
make the call. 
In some ways, that's that's the 

286
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,305
 fundamental difference between 
leading and following. 

287
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:31,663
And it's not just 
 about 
people. 

288
00:17:31,663 --> 00:17:33,235
Right? 
There are hard calls that 
 we 

289
00:17:33,235 --> 00:17:34,360
have to make. 
Hard calls. 

290
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:37,300
Pricing, you know, 
 
partnerships, entry into market,

291
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:40,334
like, you know, a product launch
that you 
 might say we made a 

292
00:17:40,334 --> 00:17:42,582
mistake on. 
Like, sometimes you have to 
 to

293
00:17:42,582 --> 00:17:47,493
back it out and say, okay. 
We made the wrong call And I'm 

294
00:17:47,493 --> 00:17:49,467
responsible for 
 the 
consequences of this. 

295
00:17:49,467 --> 00:17:51,304
Yeah. 
And I'm prepared 
 to just, you 

296
00:17:51,304 --> 00:17:54,395
know, make that decision and 
 
live with the consequences. 

297
00:17:55,395 --> 00:17:59,095
That that's the world of 
 which
most leaders live in, and it's 

298
00:17:59,095 --> 00:18:00,237
not easy. 
Yeah. 

299
00:18:00,237 --> 00:18:01,770
Yeah. 
Not easy at all. 

300
00:18:01,770 --> 00:18:05,798
And and and especially making a 
hard 
 call when others disagree

301
00:18:05,798 --> 00:18:10,730
with you Even people that you, 
you know, have great respect for

302
00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:15,785
And you but you still 
 feel so 
much conviction, and you know in

303
00:18:15,785 --> 00:18:17,705
your heart 
 of hearts, this is 
the path. 

304
00:18:17,705 --> 00:18:20,505
That's really hard. 
 
That's really hard. 

305
00:18:20,505 --> 00:18:24,105
So much easier 
 just to, you 
know, succumb to the group think

306
00:18:24,105 --> 00:18:25,804

 and and and say, alright. 
Fine. 

307
00:18:25,804 --> 00:18:29,060
We won't do it. 
Well, the one thing I know, 
 

308
00:18:29,068 --> 00:18:32,475
you know, when you become, you 
know, responsible 
 for lots of 

309
00:18:32,475 --> 00:18:34,440
people, that means you end up 
 
with lots of decisions. 

310
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,920
There are a lot of voices, and 
so being able to center 
 and 

311
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,669
ground yourself Yep. 
Know who you are, what do 
 you 

312
00:18:40,669 --> 00:18:43,757
want to accomplish, why are we 
here, you know, 
 how are we 

313
00:18:43,757 --> 00:18:45,817
going to do it? 
It's really important 
 to 

314
00:18:45,817 --> 00:18:48,461
figure that out. 
And unfortunately, 
 in many 

315
00:18:48,461 --> 00:18:51,904
cases, the lag is that we figure
that 
 out after we've been in 

316
00:18:51,904 --> 00:18:53,922
the role. 
And so when we're trying to 
 

317
00:18:53,930 --> 00:18:57,307
open people's eyes in the work 
that we do to create self 
 

318
00:18:57,315 --> 00:18:59,680
awareness is understanding 
yourself, what your values are, 

319
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,968
what you're not prepared 
 to 
compromise on, what you're 

320
00:19:01,968 --> 00:19:05,120
willing to accept, and how that 
defines in terms 
 of secondary 

321
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,098
and tertiary consequences or 
secondary and 
 tertiary impact 

322
00:19:08,098 --> 00:19:11,705
on the culture and the people 
within 
 the organization. 

323
00:19:11,705 --> 00:19:14,285
Because as a leader, whether 
 
you're aware of it or not, you 

324
00:19:14,285 --> 00:19:16,121
set the tone. 
It's in your actions. 

325
00:19:16,121 --> 00:19:17,545
It's 
 in the things that you 
say. 

326
00:19:17,545 --> 00:19:19,145
It's in the things 
 that you 
don't say. 

327
00:19:19,145 --> 00:19:21,867
It's in the things that you do, 
and it's in the things 
 that 

328
00:19:21,867 --> 00:19:24,600
you don't do. 
And so, you know, that 
 

329
00:19:24,608 --> 00:19:28,776
magnifying glass is on, and, you
know, you should treat 
 it with

330
00:19:28,776 --> 00:19:30,040
the respect it deserves.