Hello. Jonathan Kirschner here.
This is a podcast about leadership.
I'm here with Jamie Ramsden. Jamie is, a former CEO, a
leadership adviser, and and a close friend.
And there's no one I can think of who I'd rather have this type
of podcast session with than Jamie Ramsden.
And so we're gonna cover a lot of ground, but there are three
big areas we're gonna cover today.
Life, love, and leadership. Life, love, and leadership,
three small topics. Welcome, Jamie.
Thank you. Thank you for for being here on
a podcast about leadership and and being such a incredible,
incredible cherished friend. And it's really awesome to be
on this journey with you. Thank you.
Jamie does have his book here. Let's Go is How Leaders How
Great Leaders Shape the Future Which is such a beautiful
title. And we'll obviously be touching
on various aspects of that. Alright.
Let me ask you. What has failure taught you
that success never could? When you fail you you feel
something. Right?
Like, you you feel it's rough. Right?
And but, you know, failure to the extent that it goes examined
and it becomes this learning opportunity, actually, usually
turns out to be the reason why something becomes so successful
subsequently. And, you know, it's it's it's
interesting. Like, I coach a lot of leaders.
You coach a lot of leaders.
I hire leaders. When when I ask people about
their greatest achievements, usually it sort of hatched From
failure Which is really which is really interesting actually.
Right? So failure what what I've
learned about failure is that it it's it's a failure if you
just sit on it, stew on it, and feel terrible, and then try to
just move on, then it's a failure.
It becomes the impetus for success if it is examined and
converted into a learning opportunity, and then it
becomes a gem. And and that's that's how I've
experienced it. How about you?
Yeah. Well, I think I think your point
about defining what those words mean is a really valid one
because most of the people I work with and I if I think
about my experience, let me just talk about my experience, many
of the external accomplishments that people
would attribute to being to success, in inverted commas,
They're multidimensional. It's not as simplistic as, you
know, I won a medal and then my life was beautiful from that
moment onwards. There's so much more complexity
to you know, I think about my life, you know, sort of becoming
a chief executive a fairly early age.
But, you know, so well, that could be a definition of
success. But there were other things that
happened that were, you know, which were which made that
outward appearance of success something less successful.
So you wouldn't define it necessarily as failure, but I
think the idea of just sort of saying failure and success seem
to me to be very binary definitions, and I think that
life is beautifully complex, and the human condition is
beautifully complex. You know, it's never one
without the other. They're so close and
integrated, and actually, it's the synthesis and integration
of what is perceived as success or failure that that leads to
the kind of lifetime learning, the evolution of self.
I haven't met anybody who didn't evolve as a human being,
who didn't have some kind of failure, some kind of issue that
they had to integrate and learn from.
And so if I'm, again, bringing back to my own experience, know,
when I was a kid, I I was really afraid of heights.
I had a strong fear of heights. Didn't have much, you know, that
I was, you know, anxious about.
But fight heights was really something that really bothered
me. And so, you know, in heights,
in some people's, you know, fear of heights is a fear of
failure manifest. Like, that's there's a
connection or correlation between those two things because
they both involve failing. One is metaphorical, the other
one is quite physical. Oh, sorry.
Falling. Falling.
Right.
Falling.
Metaphysical, like, in my life very early on.
I remember going to the tallest roller coaster.
I go with my friends to the tallest roller coaster in Europe
at the time. It was in a place called
Blackpool in England. And they all went on the thing,
and I didn't go because I was afraid.
And they did two cycles, and I was sitting here saying, what
exactly are you afraid of? And it was a very visceral
moment. I mean, at the time, you don't
really think about it, but when you look back, maybe it is
more so. And I just said, you know what?
I'm gonna go and do it. I'm just gonna push myself.
What's the worst that can happen, and what's gonna what
am I gonna do? And in that moment, like, got
off at the end, I was like, oh, it wasn't that bad.
Actually, it was quite fun. And I think that, in my mind,
that was, you know, how you take something that is a fear of
failure or a fear of, you know, falling, and you overcome it in
a very controlled manner. It wasn't like you know, I
wasn't solo, you know, sailing around the world.
I was literally just getting on a roller coaster.
But in that moment, in overcoming that, I think that
really set a pathway for me to be able to say, when the next
time you feel this same sense of feeling, just remember this
moment, and you can overcome it. And I think there's something
in this failure success. If you're not thinking about
it in binary terms, most of life has lots of dimensions to it.
And, you know, and so the the idea of being one or the other
versus being a multiplicity of different dimensions around,
you know, an activity or an accomplishment that can include
failure and success, I think that gives you a bit more
freedom to be able to just go and explore.
Absolutely. I mean, I think you're you're
you brought up another important topic, which is sort of, like,
in some ways, you gotta take some risk.
Right? And and you can't truly grow
without taking some risk, without leaving your sphere of
comfort. Now, you can go too far.
Yeah. You can take too you know, so
there's a calculation. It's like, I'm outside of my
comfort zone, but but close enough that it I can take this
risk. But but ultimately, you know, if
I think about any growth discontinuous growth experience,
it it comes about through taking some risk.
Right? Some some measure of risk.
And and I think going back to failure, it it it's all about
learning. Right?
That's what it is. If if you don't orient with a
learning mindset, then then it truly becomes a failure, and
and then you probably avoid everything associated with that.
Right? But if you utilize learning,
then you either go right back up at it or go right back up at
it in a different way, or you clarify for yourself, you know
what? That is not for me.
But this is. And then you get more focused
on something that that is more core to your identity.
Yeah. It's like Edison's version of,
like, you know, I failed nine hundred and ninety nine times
to be able to succeed once. To be able to succeed.
Yeah. That's a really tangible
example of it. So let me ask you another
question. When did you last feel
genuinely lost? When did you feel lost?
Did the work save you, or was it the problem?
There's there's moments where we're we're heads down and and
executing, and and and sometimes it goes the way you
want it to go, and sometimes it it goes a little sideways or
or you hit a bump. And then there's those moments
where we it's like, where am I? Who am I?
Is this for me? And, you know, to to me, that's
those are like, you know, thankfully, the few, but but
they happen. Right?
They happen. And and usually, you know, it is
preceding a a a an important developmental, like, milestone
or decision. Right?
Where we you sort of like, you know, you're familiar with,
like, the Eric Erickson's developmental framework.
You can feel a little lost. Right?
You can feel a lost. I meant, you know, if I could
think about, the time I had to, let go of somebody, of an of
an employee. Right?
The first time. I actually feel it all the
time when I feel like a COVID employee, but the first time I
had to, you know, part ways with someone and, you know, I
was really I was I mean, I didn't sleep, and I was, like,
in a huge amount of, like, distress about doing this.
And it would it would, like, on paper, it's absolutely clear.
Like, this, you know, this individual was not a fit on
just about every dimension that, it would be required for a
successful working relationship. And, and yet, I couldn't get
over the human, you know, cost here.
You know, this would have an impact on the individual,
obviously, their family. It would be hurtful.
And I just I couldn't shake it. And and it was really, really,
really hard. But ultimately, underlying that
was a dilemma, which was, am I solving for the broader
organization And the business and what's best for the
business? Or am I solving for this
individual, and their needs? And then when when you when
you have that clarity, you do ultimately need to choose.
And this is like one of the hardest things, by the way, I
think of being a leader. Because to be a leader, you have
to you have to love the people.
But what does that really mean? Right.
Because if you truly love the people, you would never part
ways with somebody. Even if they were wildly
underperforming or even hurting you.
You would not part ways because you love them.
And love in its extreme is unconditional.
Right? And so how do you be a human
first leader and and and have compassion and love, and at the
same time prioritize what's best for the business because
ultimately leadership is actualizing a clear and
compelling vision through others.
Right? It is moving worlds.
It's mountains to achieve something through others.
And if you're CEO or you're a leader within the organization,
your job is to move it. Your job is to actualize.
Right? Your job isn't to solve for
the feelings of somebody. That doesn't mean you should
be a jerk or uncompassionate. But it means the level of
priority is I have to do what's right for the business
first. Right?
And and that was like a really hard call.
It brought up all sorts of values I had to reconcile with
all of that. And once I made the decision,
you know, the next day, I'm like, wow.
It feels a lot lighter. Everything is so clear right
now. Still felt bad.
Right? How could you not?
But I was unstuck. I was unstuck from that dilemma.
And and that those moments, you can think of it as the moments
that matter. They become beyond clarifying.
They become defining of your identity.
And they happen. They don't happen all the
time. But there are moments that
really rub up on your values and force you to clarify and and to
define your identity and your path.
Yeah. I think it's something, you
know, that's I can relate to as well is, like, having been in
that experience where you have to you know, you kinda have to
make those calls. Right?
No one's gonna make them for you.
And you have to try and do things I mean, you have to make
decisions that are in the best interests of the majority of the
people who you've been elected or nominated to represent.
And that can be super challenging at times when you're
in these moments where, you know, where you can see
somebody's value, you can see that they're a human being,
you can be compassionate and understand and empathetic about
who they are and what it can mean to them, and yet, you know,
you still have to make a call. And you gotta make the call.
And you know what? This is the thing that they
don't teach you. I mean, there's no there's no
school for leadership. Right?
I mean, you can go, you know, get get an MBA and take a
class on leadership. There's really no school for
leadership. You sort of learn leadership
by doing, having good mentors, and usually making a lot of
mistakes. Yeah.
So, you know, I I Having good coach?
Having a good coach. That that that helps a lot.
Helpful. Helps a lot.
But, yeah. I mean, I had I had a
situation where I I didn't let go of a person that I should
have let go Of. And the, the individual, such a
such an amazing person, but wasn't delivering Against
expectations that were made clear.
And we just said, let's just give it another quarter.
Let's give it another quarter. We this it'll happen.
It'll happen. Come on.
And and you know what happened?
We ended up losing two of our best people.
Because they said if this is if this is what performance is
Right. Then then I'd rather work in a
place that that appreciates my gifts and and that rewards me
in kind. And it's it's it was a tough
it was a tough lesson. Yeah.
And I think I led that one the hard way the same way, hanging
on to people. Most of the folks I work with
will say the regrets that they had was not being able to make
that decision sooner because ultimately culture is what you
tolerate. Right?
Somebody said that, but culture ends up being what you're
prepared or willing to tolerate. And I think when I was really
young in my career, in my tenure, you know, I was more I
was more likely to try and give folks the benefit of the
doubt and try and course correct.
And I think sometimes your instincts develop over time
where you can see where something's not working.
You can still and I always this is my framing.
It was that the way I justify their humanity is to treat them
with compassion through the process, is to be empathetic
to their needs, to be sympathetic to their
situation, and to treat them with compassion, even if the
decision is a hard one. And it can seem
counterintuitive to say, well, if you love somebody, then you
shouldn't, you know, make bad decisions or give them the
hard truths. But you can synthesize and
integrate that, and it's about the how.
It's about how you treat people. That doesn't change even if
you're giving them bad news. Yes.
And and but the hard part, you you just backing up, like,
you're you shared, like, you got ultimately, you've gotta
make the call. In some ways, that's that's the
fundamental difference between leading and following.
And it's not just about people.
Right? There are hard calls that we
have to make. Hard calls.
Pricing, you know, partnerships, entry into market,
like, you know, a product launch that you might say we made a
mistake on. Like, sometimes you have to to
back it out and say, okay. We made the wrong call And I'm
responsible for the consequences of this.
Yeah. And I'm prepared to just, you
know, make that decision and live with the consequences.
That that's the world of which most leaders live in, and it's
not easy. Yeah.
Not easy at all.
And and and especially making a hard call when others disagree
with you Even people that you, you know, have great respect for
And you but you still feel so much conviction, and you know in
your heart of hearts, this is the path.
That's really hard. That's really hard.
So much easier just to, you know, succumb to the group think
and and and say, alright. Fine.
We won't do it. Well, the one thing I know,
you know, when you become, you know, responsible for lots of
people, that means you end up with lots of decisions.
There are a lot of voices, and so being able to center and
ground yourself Yep. Know who you are, what do you
want to accomplish, why are we here, you know, how are we
going to do it? It's really important to
figure that out. And unfortunately, in many
cases, the lag is that we figure that out after we've been in
the role. And so when we're trying to
open people's eyes in the work that we do to create self
awareness is understanding yourself, what your values are,
what you're not prepared to compromise on, what you're
willing to accept, and how that defines in terms of secondary
and tertiary consequences or secondary and tertiary impact
on the culture and the people within the organization.
Because as a leader, whether you're aware of it or not, you
set the tone. It's in your actions.
It's in the things that you say.
It's in the things that you don't say.
It's in the things that you do, and it's in the things that
you don't do. And so, you know, that
magnifying glass is on, and, you know, you should treat it with
the respect it deserves.