1 00:00:15,130 --> 00:00:18,770 Hello everybody. I'm Jonathan Kirschner and this 2 00:00:18,770 --> 00:00:23,330 is a podcast about leadership. And on this podcast we talk 3 00:00:23,330 --> 00:00:27,490 about the skills and mindsets required to become not just a 4 00:00:27,850 --> 00:00:30,410 regular old leader, but an excellent leader. 5 00:00:30,810 --> 00:00:36,960 And today we are talking, we're taking on a a very important 6 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:44,560 topic, the climb from start up to scale up and ultimately the 7 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,160 leap to the public markets, the IPO. 8 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,120 We always typically hear about the financial side of an IPO, 9 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,240 the bell ringing, the stock price, the capital raise, the 10 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:02,400 big party, the confetti. What we rarely talk about is the 11 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:08,240 human toll and the leadership culture required to start a 12 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,960 company is often very different from the culture required to 13 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:17,880 lead a public organization. And so to help us navigate this, 14 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:23,520 we have two incredible heavy hitters with us today. 15 00:01:24,960 --> 00:01:28,200 First, I'm going to go with got to get, we got to get a drum 16 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,800 roll. I'm doing drum roll Gary 17 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,600 service. So Gary is an operating partner 18 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,440 at Insight Partners, which is one of the world's largest 19 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,520 venture capital and private equity firms. 20 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:45,280 So Gary, Gary does not watch from the sidelines. 21 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:51,320 Gary's deep in the trenches with his portfolio companies, and 22 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:56,520 he's helping them navigate the messy, complex journey of what 23 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:01,600 we'll call scaling up. And he's bringing the unique 24 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,760 perspective of seeing this play out across not just like one or 25 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,360 two, but hundreds of organizations knowing exactly 26 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,280 where the plot twists are. And so it's incredible to have 27 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,760 you on the show today, Gary. Thank you so much for joining 28 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,480 From what looks like New York City in the background. 29 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:24,880 Indeed it is. Thank you Jonathan. 30 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,960 Super excited to talk about one of my favorite topics. 31 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,360 Awesome. OK, and then joining Gary as as 32 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,240 though it was wouldn't be enough. 33 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,240 We have Katherine Williamson. It's weird saying Katherine 34 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,600 cause Kat, I know you for for years. 35 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:49,280 And Kat is currently the VP of talent development at Gong. 36 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:56,800 Kat's previously held roles at Hashicorp, Pinterest, and other 37 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,080 high growth tech firms. She's an expert practitioner who 38 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,520 has lived through the IPO transition from the inside and 39 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,320 recently actually collaborated with us. 40 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,080 Thank you so much, Kat, for the collaboration and partnership on 41 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:16,560 the white paper that we wrote titled The IPO Evolution, which 42 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,440 looks specifically at how talent and culture needs to mature in 43 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,720 order to survive public scrutiny. 44 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,240 Kat knows exactly what it takes to get a leadership bench ready 45 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,000 for the big leagues. So Gary Cat, welcome to the 46 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,400 show. This is I'm pumped. 47 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,760 I'm going to I'm going to field the first question to to Gary. 48 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,160 So Gary, you work with so many companies at that critical scale 49 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,800 up phase. Is there a specific like 50 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:55,840 inflection point or moment, a specific kind of failure where a 51 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:04,640 founder realizes like, Oh no, like all that's fun dopaminergic 52 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,800 scrappy chaos that got me here is now actually like, hurting 53 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,160 us. It's getting in our way. 54 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,080 Yeah. I, I think that's such a great 55 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:23,360 question because as as Cat well knows, there is points at which 56 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,520 we have discussions just about talent in general at these 57 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,360 businesses that say this person in this role probably is not the 58 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,560 person that's going to get you to the next level. 59 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,840 They may be great at this range, not so much to this next leg of 60 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:42,760 the journey. And that goes throughout all the 61 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,120 growth, not just IPO. And I think, you know, as 62 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,800 companies are working through their scale of journey and 63 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,080 they're trying to figure out what they need to continue to 64 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:01,160 scale, what happens typically, I mean, unfortunately is the the 65 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,080 KPI start to be telling a different story. 66 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:08,960 And that doesn't mean the company has lost product market 67 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:13,040 fit. It doesn't mean that the 68 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,760 business is not a good business, but we start to see some 69 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:21,800 degradation in the core KPIs. Those KPIs can be the rate at 70 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,800 which ARR is changing. So we were growing at, you know, 71 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,720 a doubling every year, and now that's kind of coming down as 72 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,080 the rate of change is going. And that may be a lot of 73 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,240 numbers, by the way. It's not just simply that we 74 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:43,920 might see it in little bits of retention issues, which tells 75 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,200 you that maybe your onboarding isn't great. 76 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,280 Maybe you have telemetry data that tells you your engineering 77 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:54,680 team is working super hard, but people aren't using all the new 78 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,800 features that are being introduced into your. 79 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:01,080 And so these are just examples across any of the functional 80 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,520 areas which give you leading indicators that something within 81 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,360 the organization has changed. And the solution is not always 82 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,360 simple. It's not necessarily I need a 83 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:18,000 new person or may not mean that you need to change how you've 84 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:24,200 done things and you need someone in a senior role who is not just 85 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,680 managing for today, but managing for what's next. 86 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:28,800 That's, that's really interesting. 87 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,600 So I can actually, you know, being, being a founder and, and 88 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,160 CEO of two organizations, air analytics and air consulting, 89 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:38,560 Air analytics being 3 year old, three years old. 90 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,760 So it's really still kind of a, a, a baby Air consulting being 91 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,680 much more mature. But like I, I, I know how 92 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:52,880 amazing it feels to move fast to like out innovate. 93 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,160 It's, it's just, it's a, it's pleasure full. 94 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,960 It's, it's actually like incredibly gratifying to lead 95 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:04,520 through innovation and to always being like always doing new 96 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,880 things. And I remember the first time 97 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,680 somebody was trying to explain to me, I didn't get my MBA. 98 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,000 So no, no MBA here, no formal training psychologist tried to 99 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,480 start a company and, and, and barely made it. 100 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:21,080 And, and now here I am right when somebody was trying to 101 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,360 explain to me what a KPI it was, I was like that. 102 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,600 That is like the most like de energizing, like concept means 103 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,440 you're going to just sit and like measure the same thing, you 104 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,520 know, like every month and then like we're going to look at a 105 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,000 report or a dashboard on a quarterly basis. 106 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,720 And that's what success or failure is. 107 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,000 It's not like what we innovative or did we have fun or did we 108 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,600 move fast and break things. So it's like you're so de 109 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,240 energizing. I'm curious, you know, from from 110 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,160 both of you, you know, like, like cat you, you being sort of 111 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,160 operating internally in an organization and helping like 112 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,080 leaders at scale develop with, with some major implications to 113 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:12,840 culture and, and Gary, you, you know, looking at investment 114 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,360 choices and and helping founder CE OS like let's unpack that 115 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,840 concept a little bit like how the the the founders, let's 116 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,880 start with this. The founders become sort of 117 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:32,159 obsessed with just like the, the, the, the, the allure of 118 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:36,400 chasing the shiny object, moving fast and breaking things and 119 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:41,480 sort of resist this like slowing down and attending to the boring 120 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:46,880 stuff like KPIs and OK Rs. I can start, but I, but I'm sure 121 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,400 Gary's got got tons to contribute as well. 122 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,720 I think so. And I, I think at least sort of 123 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,400 in some of my experiences, I think it's less about like the 124 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,080 excitement, but more about the perception of slowing down to do 125 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,400 these things. And I think sort of sometimes 126 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,000 it's been my job to say we might need to slow down initially, but 127 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,680 in in order to scale and in order to, you know, ramp fast or 128 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:16,920 like get after some of the things that you want to do, 129 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,760 which might be more exciting for you in terms of innovation and 130 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,960 and growth. We need to set these foundations 131 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:29,000 so that we don't have to keep like reiterating things or 132 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,680 duplicating work across the system because this person built 133 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:36,080 something, we haven't shared it centrally. 134 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:37,560 We don't have a central ownership. 135 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,480 Maybe they leave the company or they get bored of it and it goes 136 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,960 away and somebody else has built the same thing over here, 137 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,160 someone else has built the same. So there's like a place here 138 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,600 which is like sometimes you need to kind of slow down and get 139 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,000 your foundations in order to get back to doing some of the stuff 140 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,680 that you love doing. Like once this stuff runs well, 141 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,680 then you know, go for it. Go innovate. 142 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:01,520 Be excited about those things. It makes a ton of sense, but 143 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:07,840 like, do you ever, do you ever like meet up with resistance 144 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,040 when you're saying to a founder or to a leadership team, like, 145 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,120 Hey, we need to slow down and get our processes right. 146 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,720 Or, you know, we need to, you know, do some interviews and 147 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:23,000 scope out the right, you know, solution here. 148 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,880 Like, does that feel like bureaucracy or like we're we're 149 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,640 we're not what we're like slowing ourselves down? 150 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,080 Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 151 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,160 I think that's, that's partly our job is to, is to kind of 152 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:43,680 paint the picture of the future and really, really get to why 153 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,360 this is important, particularly if it's a topic that the CEO 154 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:49,800 found. I've worked in tech a lot. 155 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,320 So a lot of tech CEOs might not have had been able to see or had 156 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:59,160 experiences where HR ran this way, operations ran this way. 157 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,560 They've seen Rev OPS working at scale. 158 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:07,520 Like I think sometimes it's our job to, you know, to educate in 159 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,800 that if you, you know, if you slow down and create this stuff, 160 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,240 it doesn't have to seriously impact your culture. 161 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,840 Your culture can still be exciting and innovative and 162 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,360 trying new things. And there is some benefit to 163 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,160 getting some of these pieces in place. 164 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:30,600 I think it's a mistake to paint the entrepreneur with a single 165 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,400 brush stroke. And I think that you're going to 166 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:40,760 get I, I, I, I talk about four archetypes of the entrepreneur. 167 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:46,800 And because they are so different that they will respond 168 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,360 to these things quite differently. 169 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:53,880 So archetype #1 especially in, in my business is the technical 170 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,920 founder. And so the technical founder may 171 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,760 come from an engineering background, may come from just 172 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:05,400 much more of, of the the the product focus. 173 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,080 The second one is going to be the go to market founder. 174 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,840 And this is a founder that may have come up more through sales 175 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,200 and found a technical Co partner, but you know, they're 176 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,120 leading and they're like their focus is go to market and 177 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:26,040 selling. The third is the finance someone 178 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:31,400 who is may have been ACFO or may just know the the finances of 179 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,000 growing businesses and how to do acquisitions and figure out how 180 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,280 to integrate them and how to manage all of the numbers. 181 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,040 And then the the last one is sort of in in by the way, this 182 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,360 may not be all MISI. You may see overlaps of Navs is 183 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,320 what I'll just simply call the visionary. 184 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,600 And the visionary is, is that person that is thinking out to 185 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:00,120 the solutions and is really just incredible at creatively solving 186 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,120 for problems. And you may have a single one of 187 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,400 these or some melange of them, and they're going to respond to 188 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,640 the scaling challenge differently. 189 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,960 They're going to look for different things and they're 190 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,280 going to bring different skills to it as well. 191 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,320 I I love that. So I imagine there's not one, 192 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,680 you know, silver bullet, like there's not one archetype that's 193 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,560 better than the others. Like each one, you know, has its 194 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:29,280 own, you know, pluses and trade-offs. 195 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,800 And I really do appreciate that. It's not, it's not like every, 196 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,160 you know, founder, CEO or entrepreneur is, is, is just 197 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,440 chasing squirrels, right? You, you know, that that product 198 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,520 person may actually need to chase more squirrels, right? 199 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,240 They might be like 2 heads down, focused on their product and not 200 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,240 looking out enough and exercising like creativity or 201 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:58,280 visionary thinking. But so, so you know, there's, 202 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,040 there's like these, you know, like strengths and, and, and 203 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,480 trade-offs probably to each archetype. 204 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,120 So, you know, independent of the archetype or the melange of, of, 205 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,120 of, of, of the mix. Gary, I'm just curious, like 206 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,400 you, you've probably had a conversation or two with the 207 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,320 founder, you know, that goes along the lines of like, you 208 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,880 know, what got you here is not going to get you there. 209 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,080 Can you help us understand? Like, what does that look like? 210 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,000 And maybe if you had a conversation, you don't have to 211 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,200 say the name or company or anything like that, but you 212 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,160 know, what does that conversation look like? 213 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:47,160 And, and, and how, and have you seen founders take that feedback 214 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,200 and, and run with it? And you know, or, or conversely, 215 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:51,920 like they just can't do it. They can't. 216 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,840 They can't make it happen. So when you get to the point of 217 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:05,320 having a conversation with the founder about their role or what 218 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,960 their team looks like or how their scaling is going, you 219 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,960 know, typically they're in pain and and you know, they're in 220 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,280 pain, they are expressing their pain. 221 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,080 It could be that they're working crazy hours. 222 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:28,000 It could be that they're having a hard time delivering on key 223 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,440 initiatives like they're in pain. 224 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:38,960 And so the, the the discussion with ACEO that in some cases 225 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,960 it's them, they are not the right person to take it to the 226 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,680 next level. In other cases it could be their 227 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,120 Co founder who was incredible in product. 228 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,920 But now you need a different kind of product organization or 229 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,720 any of these combinations. And so you need to be in a place 230 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:03,720 of first and foremost getting to the joint recognition that 231 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,520 indeed there is an issue. Indeed we've isolated where the 232 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,640 issue is and we have several options of how we could address 233 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,440 this. You want to empower the CEO and 234 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,840 in most cases, even if the CE OS the issue, they know they're the 235 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,560 issue. They've they're they're very few 236 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,400 who are not self aware to know where their challenges are. 237 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,080 And so I think that you know, you you can make it into this 238 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,000 beautiful drama, but it doesn't really have to be a drama. 239 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,760 And it doesn't mean that the the the things that got you here 240 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,440 won't get you here in the future. 241 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,040 Needs to that discussion doesn't mean need to be a game ender. 242 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,280 It can be the beginning of that next level of collaboration with 243 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,880 that founder, which can be equally as beneficial. 244 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,360 And I'll say one last thing, which is, you know, a long time 245 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,640 ago, and I'm sure you know, Jonathan, you, you say this with 246 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,319 some frequency. You know, I worked with a coach 247 00:17:08,319 --> 00:17:12,880 and, and you know, the, the, the key focus of that coach was 248 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,119 getting me to identify my highest and best use. 249 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,040 And if you can, if you can focus on highest and best use of an 250 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,599 individual, then it's a very different discussion. 251 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,359 Because now you're saying, look at all the amazing things you 252 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:28,800 bring. Remember I told you the four 253 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,360 archetypes? Maybe they've been forced to be 254 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:34,200 all four of them and they really should just be one of them. 255 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,840 And that may be just a load taken off their shoulders. 256 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:45,520 So in many ways, these aren't just, you know, these aren't 257 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,320 just difficult conversations, these are coaching 258 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,480 conversations, Gary, that you're having with the founder. 259 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,760 The board should be a coach. If you're going to use a board 260 00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:01,000 in the best possible way, the best possible way is not to like 261 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:06,120 use your decks to March them through all the slides and show 262 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,000 them the performance that you could have emailed them and it. 263 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,640 And if they're doing their job, they're reading what you want to 264 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:18,040 use the board is as a coach, as an advisor, as having more data 265 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,000 points than you do to be able to, to give you recommendations. 266 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,080 I love it. I love, I love orienting to the 267 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:29,680 I mean, a board is scary. You know, I've been just again, 268 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,240 talking from, you know, the, the, the shoes of, of, of a 269 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,600 founder. It's it's like an intimidating 270 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,200 thing to have a board and to be coming in and reporting to the 271 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,600 board, but that that shift in mindset and orienting to the 272 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:48,400 board as as sort of a a. You got to move beyond it being 273 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:55,320 a report card and and move it to being everyone is on the has the 274 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,360 same goal to make this business successful. 275 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,360 Let's all get together and have that discussion and I'm going to 276 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:05,280 be super transparent about where things are going well and where 277 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,440 they're not. That's where many founders go 278 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,320 awry is they try to couch what they're saying and put it in a 279 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,360 in a language there versus taking ownership, saying I tried 280 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,280 this thing, it didn't work. Here's where I think the next 281 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,880 direction is. So that that transparency, that 282 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,840 candor and us all, we're all on the same team here. 283 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:32,880 This isn't just like a, a quarterly report card in front 284 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,200 of a bunch of people where I need to, you know, put spin on 285 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,080 every message and slide. This is for us to come together 286 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,440 to move the needle forward together. 287 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,080 That's that's actually really valuable for the founders 288 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,760 listening to this podcast, but also I think for board members 289 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,200 as well, because I think board members sometimes do come to 290 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,560 these meetings approaching it like a, like a, a scorecard 291 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:06,360 report card activity. So I really appreciate that cat. 292 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:09,160 I you know. Of course, I read the white 293 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,800 paper that that you contributed so heavily to before this 294 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,040 podcast to freshen up. I was shocked by this statistic 295 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:25,320 that basically 60% of founders are no longer CEO by the time of 296 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:31,840 IPOII mean, I guess I'm just curious, you know, for, for all 297 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,680 the founders listening and, and, and those who are fascinated 298 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,480 with, you know, scale up ecosystems, like what's the 299 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,600 shift in mindset that you've seen that is needed by the 300 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:50,320 founder in order to be part of like that 40% that that are, you 301 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:56,720 know, surviving? Yeah, I, you know, I think, you 302 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,320 know, and I think we were talking about this before. 303 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,600 It's, it's really quite a different job. 304 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,280 I think it is that shift from, I think we say it in the white 305 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:12,240 paper, you know, from sort of chaos to organization and maybe 306 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,640 from sort of short term mindset to more of a sort of structured 307 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,840 longer term focus. I think that's that's really the 308 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,200 big shift, which can feel honestly like a completely new 309 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:30,840 job sometimes. And I think that that is sort of 310 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,080 the risk and there's lots of different pieces to it. 311 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,720 But to Gary's point, like if there was things that you loved 312 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,080 doing, you loved being, you know, if you're maybe the 313 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,240 engineering archetype, like you love being in there solving the 314 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,880 problem, you know, sitting with teams, actually doing the work. 315 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,880 And now suddenly your role is much more numbers and reporting 316 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,760 out and being, you know, questions and possibly judged in 317 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,080 a way on on your success in a way that you haven't 318 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,280 experienced, you know, in, in the times that you're really 319 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,000 enjoying work. It can, you know, it can be sort 320 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,840 of a lonely job and suddenly you're not doing any of the cool 321 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,360 stuff you wanted to do. And so sort of I think that's 322 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,560 that's one of the biggest challenges I think. 323 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,640 Yeah. I mean, when I, I, I, I work 324 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:22,440 with a, a, a founder CEO that IPO and like one of the biggest 325 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,280 like disenchanting surprises was, you know, all of a sudden 326 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,400 you've got to now like report on a quarterly basis to the public 327 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,720 and 1 penny off. Or even now, you know, with the 328 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,720 pressure that in the markets, like if you just meet 329 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,920 expectations or, or maybe you're like exceeding expectations, but 330 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,440 not exceeding enough for your forward guidance wasn't strong 331 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,720 enough that it could just like send you back 20% like like 332 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,520 that. And then all of a sudden 333 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,720 everybody's like all of a sudden short term focused and and then 334 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,520 it you know, you get to the next quarter, maybe you, you, you, 335 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,840 you, you crushed it. You tell a better narrative. 336 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,960 The stock goes up, but then the next quarter down it it the the 337 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:16,360 the cycle and the the volatility of this can create this like 338 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:21,200 very like short term thinking. And now all of a sudden like 339 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,760 this expansive, especially for the visionary archetype. 340 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,760 I imagine this would be like particularly hard for a lot of 341 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:35,480 that spark gets diminished. And I'm just curious from both 342 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,600 of you like, how do we mitigate, you know, that risk, that risk 343 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:45,240 of becoming as maybe like Jeff Bezos and the Amazonians might 344 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,800 say becoming like a day 2 company, right? 345 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,560 How do we mitigate the risk of becoming a Day 2 company where 346 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:59,640 that initial vibe and and that energy is is diminished? 347 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:09,120 Well, so I, I'm not sure the goal is to preserve the vibe 348 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:16,920 and, and, and, and what I mean by that is the, the concept of, 349 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:24,480 of a company pre IPO and a company post IPO cannot by his 350 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,360 very nature be the same thing. Now you and I can talk about 351 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:35,120 culture and preserving core tenants of our culture, but you 352 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:41,800 literally if you're a strong leader of a IPOA company that 353 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:47,560 IPOs, you need to be the kind of leader that says we were an 354 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:54,240 amazing startup, we had a journey, we grew, we created and 355 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:59,280 our job isn't over. We are ready to move to our next 356 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:05,520 level of growth, our next arc. And it won't be the same as our 357 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:11,120 previous arc, but it can't, it can be just as rewarding, but in 358 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:16,880 different ways. And that message to your 359 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,280 employee base, because one of the the things that's really 360 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:26,120 hard for companies is actually retaining those employees post 361 00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:29,240 IPO. Cat knows this more so than I 362 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,280 do. And that, you know, you need to 363 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,880 it. And it's not simply money now, 364 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,520 because some of them may have done incredibly well in AIPO and 365 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:48,840 now you need to reinvigorate the organization with new incentives 366 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,760 and new excitement. That was not what people were 367 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,880 there originally. And there's nothing wrong with 368 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,520 that. And that's sort of my message 369 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,880 that there's nothing wrong with that. 370 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,600 Yeah, and and spot on. And, and what I'd add is like, I 371 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,360 think sometimes where things lag or sometimes where you can get 372 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,400 this kind of disrupted vibe or, you know, maybe even culture is 373 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,640 when you have a set of leaders or a CEO, founder or somebody 374 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,360 who like won't make that shift says, no, we have to keep 375 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,720 everything exactly as it was when we're a private company. 376 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,240 But also, you know, that's not the reality everybody's living 377 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,600 in. And so employees get this weird 378 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,400 mix of, no, we're still the same. 379 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,840 We're still, you know, cool and innovative, but what they're 380 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,560 seeing in reality is something that that looks and feels 381 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,920 different. So you have this kind of push 382 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,080 and pull moment. And I think that's one of them. 383 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,040 The mistakes as a, you know, at least you sort of see out there 384 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,320 around, you know, the 60% is maybe the not recognizing and 385 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,240 making that shift when they need to. 386 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,760 And then like Gary just said, reinvigorating towards it. 387 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,800 Success is is, you know, a huge motivator. 388 00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:09,120 Sometimes the success looks different in startup than it 389 00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:11,600 might do in a scaling public company. 390 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,960 But success is success. And so how do you start talking 391 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,400 about, you know, the public company's success in a way 392 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,240 that's just as invigorating as maybe it was in the past? 393 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,960 And I and I would say like it's really interesting people talk 394 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,840 about IP OS being milestones. Now a milestone just to keep 395 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,920 everyone on using our words correctly is not an end point. 396 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:42,240 It's a point on the journey. And so when you think about the 397 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,760 milestone of IPO hell, we're just getting started. 398 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,640 And so I think it's really important for folks to think 399 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,120 about this in the, in the, the journey that this organization 400 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:57,920 is on. And while this is an important 401 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,160 milestone, it is certainly not the end point. 402 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,160 That's really important. I'm wondering going back to a 403 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,560 point you may go, which I I found to be like, you know, 404 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:14,360 personally resonant like we're not solving for vibe. 405 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:23,440 So many founders can can get sort of caught in the trap where 406 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,160 they're solving for vibe and they're sort of like clinging to 407 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,160 that that, you know, kind of like founder energy. 408 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,480 And I'm just curious, like, can that be a derailleur, you know, 409 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,640 is in, in some ways, have you seen this like where, where 410 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:51,800 founders are doing that in some way to resist the natural 411 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,080 maturation to the next level? You know, could it be some kind 412 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:02,120 of like unconscious change resistance, you know, and from, 413 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,360 from, from actually growing up, right? 414 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:05,680 Like, I don't want to grow up. It's scary. 415 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,320 It's scary to be an adult. It's scary to be, you know, with 416 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,400 the big boys. Like, I want to go back to the 417 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,920 to the playground. I'm just curious, you know, I'm, 418 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,920 I'm playing with this idea. Yeah, no, no, no. 419 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,200 There are plenty of founders who find themselves in the 420 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:25,400 predicament that they solved a really important problem at one 421 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:31,880 point and the world is changing super quickly. 422 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,520 And the solution to that problem is not what they came up with or 423 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,600 the market their product is targeted to is no longer the 424 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,560 right market. And in and in so doing this, 425 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,840 there's this massive amount of like I, I was giving a talk last 426 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,960 week and I was talking about AI transformation. 427 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,240 And I, I said transformation used to be a project, like it 428 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,120 had a beginning and end. We're going to do project Opus 429 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,640 and project Opus is going to come from here to here. 430 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,040 And when all of a sudden magically we'll be in the cloud 431 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,280 or magically, you know, we'll be doing this with, with AI and the 432 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,440 world we're in, we're in constant transformation. 433 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:23,120 And so those founders who find it hard to create the culture of 434 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,720 reinvention and constantly pushing the boundaries for 435 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,760 themselves personally as well As for their teams are going to 436 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,000 struggle. And this has nothing to do with 437 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,840 IPO. This is just leadership in 438 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,520 general and what it's going to take to be successful in a world 439 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,160 where the idea that we're transforming our business is 440 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,600 never done. Right. 441 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,040 It's not, it's, it's, it's not a, you know, transformation 442 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,080 where we start here and and here and then we're done and, and now 443 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,120 we're, we're there and maybe there's another transformation a 444 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,040 few years later. We're we're in constant and 445 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,680 continuous change. So what I'm hearing from you is 446 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,400 that right again, put, put IPO, scale up, start up. 447 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:13,360 All that aside, like table stakes, to be a leader today is 448 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,680 like you said, Gary, to be in like creating a cultural 449 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:21,920 constant reinvention, which is that's hard. 450 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,280 If you're not disrupting yourself, if you're not 451 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,160 disrupting yourself, there are many little AI native companies 452 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,520 and competitors and the folks that used to not be competitors 453 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,560 say, what the hell? This looks like a juicy market. 454 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,200 I'm going to go into this market like we're in a hyper 455 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,920 competitive world. And so if you are not like 456 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,320 thinking of it in this world and I'm not picking on Gong in any 457 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,320 way. I'm just saying Gong did this 458 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,720 one great little thing. It recorded calls. 459 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,200 Wasn't that amazing? Well, if that's the only thing 460 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,680 it continued to do today, no one would care. 461 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,440 And so as you sort of think about like just what is going on 462 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:08,280 in a regular cadence of Business Today, the the great leader is, 463 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,760 is the leader that is paranoid. Paranoia is actually a powerful 464 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,880 tool for a leader. Like you need to see all this 465 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,680 risk and you need to see all this change and you need to 466 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,440 understand like the world is changing and I'm not sure where 467 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,080 it's going. And I'm OK with that. 468 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,720 And I know how to lead through that. 469 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,440 And so I think that you know what, what you're left with 470 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:36,200 today is a very different kind of operating world that every 471 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,320 leader of every business is going to need to, you know, up 472 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,120 their skills to be successful. Even if they've had successful 473 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,960 exits before, whatever they did there probably not going to work 474 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,800 now. And so you got to get to that 475 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,480 level. That actually that makes me 476 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:59,640 think about like, you know, Kat, you've been doing this for a 477 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,680 long time. I mean, you, you've led the 478 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,840 leadership development and talent development functions in, 479 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,520 in numerous start up to scale up organizations. 480 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,920 And you know, in that capacity, like you've got to like decide 481 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,840 like at this level, we're going to focus on these attributes and 482 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,160 competencies and then this level we're going to focus on these 483 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,640 leadership skills. And at this level of our 484 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,160 emerging leader, we're going to work on these skills. 485 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:31,400 It's like a, it's, it's like a jigsaw puzzle specific to the 486 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,760 context of, of being, you know, in this in motion from start of 487 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,920 the scale up. And then of course, specific to 488 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,920 the organization, whether it's Hashic or Pinterest gone, 489 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:45,080 whatever it is, right? I, I'm just curious from, well, 490 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,400 I got 2 questions. Like one help me understand how 491 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:58,160 this like how do you get this accepted into the system, into a 492 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,600 system that's always like working harder than like their 493 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:06,120 actual capacity that's always under tons of pressure? 494 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,480 How do you get people to like slow down to basically learn 495 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,199 leadership skills? Like I'm wondering, you probably 496 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,280 get a lot of resistance. Like no, like we don't have time 497 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,679 for that. We don't have budget for that. 498 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:19,880 We're we're putting that into, you know, our marketing budget, 499 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,280 like the people figured out given this book, you know, like, 500 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,080 so I'm just curious like how you, you know, get buy in at the 501 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:33,639 broadest level of of a start up to scale up. 502 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,920 And then my second question really to to to both of you, 503 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,000 just like thinking about the skills we need right now in this 504 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,960 point in time. So if we had a magic wand and 505 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,159 can create like the the ultimate leadership development 506 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:54,239 experience for a, a pre IPO or or just recently post IPO 507 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,720 organization in the year 2026, like what would that look like? 508 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:03,160 So, so, but let's go to the first question for yeah, just 509 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,920 like table sticks. How do you get adoption of 510 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,080 leadership development and that investment of time and budget in 511 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,080 in an organization that's moving at like 120 miles an hour? 512 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,040 Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, I think as 513 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,840 the world's changing, you know, our development models need to 514 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,720 change as well. You know, I think in the past it 515 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,320 was OK to grab a bunch of leaders and take them out of the 516 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,320 business for a week and, you know, take them on a track and 517 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,360 learn team development skills and, and things like this. 518 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,320 And, you know, very common set of skills that we're going to 519 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,040 lead to success as a leader. I think that is all kind of out 520 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,600 the window now. I think really, really good 521 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,720 leadership development is when you can sit alongside a leader 522 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,760 for a period of time and really understand what are they doing 523 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,240 in their business, what are their business challenges, How 524 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:03,240 is their team around them operating? 525 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:06,400 How you know, what are some of the struggles that they have 526 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:12,280 with their particular business and then being able to sort of 527 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,960 OfferUp those little bits of, I call it in the flow of work kind 528 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,440 of moments or practice or support that helps them get 529 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,520 their job done. And that's, that's really where 530 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,920 I think leadership development is going is around getting much 531 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,360 closer to the business and to the leaders that we're there to 532 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,880 help develop, understand where the business is going. 533 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,440 Like really put a business lens on and then create just little 534 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,200 moments of support, almost like sort of sitting with, with your 535 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,040 courage to help them get the job done that they've got in front 536 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,080 of them. But at the same time, keeping an 537 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,480 eye on the future, which is, OK, you've got a problem today, 538 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,000 Let's practice a new skill. How does that feel? 539 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,680 What does that look like? What's some feedback? 540 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,240 And then when that challenge comes up again, let's practice 541 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:03,000 that skill again, building over time rather than thinking 542 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,520 there's sort of a silver bullet. It's just it's not that way. 543 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,480 So it's not about, you know, carving out the three days and 544 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,120 going off site to the mountains or something like that, that 545 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,320 that's, I mean, does that work? I think it depends on the 546 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,720 challenge that the, that the leader or the leadership team is 547 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:24,320 facing. I am and I don't, you know, I'm 548 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,840 not saying that sometimes it's, it's necessary to take a group 549 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,880 of leaders, maybe a leadership team out of the business for a 550 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,040 second so they can all figure out how do I work together? 551 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,200 Maybe they have instead of conflict that is starting to get 552 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,720 in the way of their decision making. 553 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,400 OK, so it's OK to say, yo, time out. 554 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,560 Let's step away here for a second. 555 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,960 Let's figure out why we keep running into conflict here as an 556 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,440 executive team, how that's slowing down our decision making 557 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,040 and what impact is that having on the business and how do we 558 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,880 start to get past this so that this conflict isn't slowing us 559 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,440 down anymore? And so if that's the problem, I 560 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,080 might say, yeah, those in the moments like little hints and 561 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,080 tips might not get them over this hurdle. 562 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,400 You might need to pull them out and say, hey, we need to really 563 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,800 fix this and then get them back in. 564 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,560 But that's you being very close to the business and starting to 565 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,640 understand the root cause of how some of this is happening. 566 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:26,440 So in the in that instance, you might come in for an hour, see a 567 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,320 meeting, understand decision making is the problem, and then 568 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,400 create an operating process for them to start decision making. 569 00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:36,320 But if the conflict is actually the problem there no operating 570 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,960 model in the world is going to help because there's, you know, 571 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,960 contrarians and things like this in the group that are that are 572 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,200 disrupting decision making. But that's about getting close 573 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,920 and then finding the solution that meets the need. 574 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,960 And I and I would, I would add Kat on that piece there. 575 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,120 I think you make some really important points here. the IT 576 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,680 really depends on the problem and what is the best tactic to 577 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:09,840 have progress. So I'm, I guess because I'm so 578 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:18,200 over rotated to AI today that I believe very strongly that we 579 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,960 need to work harder to have the human to human pieces, which I 580 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,920 think actually can be more impactful. 581 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,920 And so as you like, look at your like tool belt of ways that you 582 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,960 can drive change and impact on management teams, on leaders. 583 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,920 Some of it can be done async and could be training that you do 584 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:50,880 online, but that has limits it I think if you do it on Prem, 585 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,440 awesome, maybe that you take some time on Prem and do it. 586 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,920 But when you're on Prem, you sort of have all the business 587 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,120 pressure in the meetings and people knocking on the door and 588 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,880 all those pieces. And so you may need to get to 589 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:09,040 the mountains just because the problem demands dedicated time. 590 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,520 It can't be just your sort of side hustle, so to speak. 591 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,560 It needs to really have a dedicated way. 592 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,960 To solve for that leadership issue. 593 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,600 So again, you know, I'm, I'm not trying to overcomplicate it, but 594 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,560 I also don't want us to take, you know, a single point of view 595 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,840 because the problems are just so different as Kat was indicating, 596 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,960 you know, it really depends. That's I love that. 597 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,560 I love the concept of tool belt and having like multiple, you 598 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,680 know, sort of options and tools depending on the problem we're 599 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,840 trying to solve for. And, and, and one of those being 600 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,440 the mountains, but others being, you know, bite sized learning in 601 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,680 the flow of work. Fantastic. 602 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,200 I mean, maybe we could just come back to this topic of leadership 603 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,480 in, in our current times. You know, we're, we're getting 604 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,720 towards the end of the year, about to start a new year 2026. 605 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,120 We're all experiencing the like incredible disruptive power, 606 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,520 which presents both an opportunity and, and, and 607 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:14,400 perhaps challenges at the same time concurrently with regard to 608 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,640 AI and then and the, the, the massive force of innovation that 609 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,960 brings. What Yeah, like are the 610 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,120 leadership skills that leaders need to be developing and 611 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,160 learning the same as they were 10 years ago? 612 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,440 Or like, do we need to be focused on, you know, some 613 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,560 distinctive skills or attributes right now to be successful? 614 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,960 You know, Gary, I, you mentioned, you know, we got to 615 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,400 be a little more paranoid. Like should we be taking like a 616 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,800 paranoia one O 1 class? And I'm just being cheeky with 617 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,520 you, but curious. Like, I don't know, like what 618 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,520 what, what does a leader need to do right now to be successful 619 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,240 to, to, to lead effectively? I don't think it's ever been 620 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:05,600 harder to be a leader of a business than it is today. 621 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,320 You know, I, I mentioned about the transformation, the constant 622 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,800 transformation, managing that is incredibly challenging. 623 00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:20,480 And I think, you know, when you look at the skill sets that we 624 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:26,760 have always valued, whether it be communication skills or maybe 625 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:33,000 it's the the capacity to know how to navigate an organization, 626 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:38,840 or maybe it's the skill of truly creating leadership and goals 627 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,480 and, and endpoint, like none of those have changed. 628 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:49,800 I think what you know, people misunderstand about AI today is 629 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,320 they think that it's a technology challenge when in 630 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,040 reality it's a change management challenge. 631 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:01,640 So all the things that you've leveraged in the past to manage 632 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:06,800 change need to be in the leaders tool belt again, like this needs 633 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,240 to you need to be able to have the right kind of training and 634 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,480 you need to create the right kinds of incentives. 635 00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:16,840 And you need to understand that, you know, the organization is 636 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,120 probably going to lose some people because there's not the 637 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,800 right fit. And, you know, these are not 638 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,880 I'm, I'm not minimizing these in any way to say that these are 639 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,920 easy choices or that these are are are decisions that leaders 640 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,600 take lightly. But the in the in a world that 641 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:42,880 is accelerating in the pace of change, this is not the time to 642 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,080 just put yourself on the side and say, you know, I'm going to 643 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:48,160 wait and I'm going to figure it out. 644 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:49,680 I'm going to see how things work. 645 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,640 Because you may wake up and your market's gone. 646 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,840 Your customers are gone. Like because someone moved 647 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,240 quicker, more decisively, created the right kind of goals. 648 00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:02,240 And I, and you know, you've heard the, you know, move quick 649 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:06,360 and break things thing that reality has never been more 650 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:11,520 important because your customers are under a different set of 651 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,280 pressure. They're getting the, have you 652 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,680 adopted AI yet? Or where's my ROI from my AI 653 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,800 initiatives and investment and all this? 654 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,840 And are you someone that can help them with that? 655 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,240 Are you someone that could be net plus as long as you're 656 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,600 transparent? You know, I'm never one to 657 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,040 advocate for like vaporware products. 658 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,920 I'm here to advocate for clear direction and road map, like a 659 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,800 very clear direction that you know, I'm going to stick with 660 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,240 you because you have a place and you may not have all my 661 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:48,320 functionality I need today, but you're going to bring that in. 662 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,200 All good. Yeah, I think, I think that's 663 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,600 always been there and I think more so than ever, right. 664 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,600 If you're sitting in an environment where not not only 665 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,880 are your customers changing and moving and getting new things, 666 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,480 but you and in your flow of work, like in your work, you're 667 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,760 getting asked to, you know, AI tools, things like this, get 668 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,960 your work more efficient, move faster. 669 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:20,040 Having a leader that creates this, this calmness in a world 670 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,960 that is chaotic and, and, and you know, fast-paced. 671 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,080 I think that is just such a skill that that if leaders have 672 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,920 it and can kind of harness that without slowing anything down, 673 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,800 but just this calm voice that says things are moving. 674 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,920 The way we approach it might look different next week, but we 675 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,560 are focused, we are clear, we are confident and we are moving 676 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,040 forward in this direction. I I just think there's there's 677 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,960 such a skill and when you see it done well, it just settles 678 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,360 everybody down and they can move through change. 679 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,320 Knowing that like somebody's somebody's at the helm and 680 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:57,880 they're confident we're in the right direction. 681 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,160 It's really paradoxical. Yeah. 682 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,680 It is. It is. 683 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:03,440 Because on the one hand, I'm hearing like. 684 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,560 You know, it's, it's, it's really the leader's job to, to 685 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,400 not just navigate change. I mean navigate change. 686 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:18,160 That's so like, you know, 2020, you know, it's the leader's job 687 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:23,800 to keep the ball in motion during constant transformation. 688 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:28,280 So the leader is actively changing and moving the 689 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:33,200 organization towards something. And at the same time, what I'm 690 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,160 hearing is like the leader needs to be a, a, a, a stabilizer to 691 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,800 the people in the organization, right? 692 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,880 So how does the leader move and propel the organization through 693 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,240 this context of constant change while also grounding people? 694 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,080 That's like a real Jedi skill. I want to add one other word 695 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,480 here. Cat use the word, but I, I, I 696 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:05,640 would almost juxtapose the, the calmness for the word I'm 697 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:10,800 thinking of, which is clarity. I think clarity makes everyone 698 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,680 more comfortable. I think we're we're 699 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,800 organizations struggle is when they're like, you know, 700 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:22,160 squirrels chasing, you know, a different nut every day that 701 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:27,320 feels super uncomfortable and and and not calming. 702 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,080 But I think clarity drives calmness. 703 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:38,200 And I think that those leaders that commit are also comfortable 704 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,560 in recognizing if they commit and they need to pivot there, 705 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,040 there is less shame in that than ever. 706 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,480 Like you should be rigorous at solving the problem, not about. 707 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:55,240 Rigorous on staying on the path, Rigorous about solving the 708 00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,800 problem, not just. Staying on the path, I love that 709 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,800 because the path is like, you know, that's. 710 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,720 That's really that's. Really profound. 711 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,160 OK, this is this is fantastic. So I, I want us to just as we 712 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:17,160 get towards the end of the of, of the hour here to, to channel 713 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:24,920 your experiences working with a start up to scale up that is, 714 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,480 you know, about to go IPO or really just any kind of 715 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,440 inflection point. It could be a private equity 716 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,840 investment, it could be a fundraising event, but something 717 00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,440 that is going to create this discontinuous moment and propel 718 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,880 the organization into sort of a new level of growth. 719 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,960 What advice? So I'll start with you, Gary. 720 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:53,760 What advice would you give to a founder CEO who is about to 721 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:58,240 embark on that process and is saying, Gary, I got this, we're 722 00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:02,080 good, we're solid. What advice would you give that 723 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:10,600 founder CEOII think the. Most dangerous thing for most CE 724 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,880 OS is to stop questioning their assumptions. 725 00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,320 And so they need to be constantly challenging their 726 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,560 assumptions. And again, this gets back to all 727 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,000 the things we were talking about, the assumptions about 728 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,600 what got us here that may not get us there, the assumptions 729 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:32,120 about who on our team are the right people versus not. 730 00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:37,080 It's also about our business model and our markets and our 731 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,040 solutions. Like you, you know, I always 732 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:44,920 tell this story about bias and how dangerous it is it is to 733 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,480 organizations. And let's say you had an 734 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,560 employee and they're always late to every meeting and that really 735 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,360 bothers you and you finally are fed up. 736 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,320 I'm firing that employee and now you're going to hire a new 737 00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:59,240 employee. And guess what? 738 00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:03,200 That employee is, God damn it, going to be on time every time. 739 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,280 And you hire them and guess what? 740 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,560 They're on time every time and they can't spell. 741 00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,160 And So what you've done is traded 1 issue for a different 742 00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:19,560 issue and you haven't really, you know, thought about like 743 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,920 really without all the bias, without all the things that you 744 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:29,000 think made you successful, How do I now navigate this next 745 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:34,120 journey if I don't feel comfortable, empowered and part 746 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,320 of my daily existence to challenge what I believe are my 747 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:42,280 truths so constantly? Scrutinizing and challenging 748 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,200 one's assumptions. I I think that's incredible. 749 00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:51,080 Sage advice, Gary, thank you. Thank you. 750 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:59,800 OK, Cat, you could go with the founder, CEO or or CHRO or chief 751 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,680 talent officer of an organization about the IPO. 752 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,920 They say like we got this, we're fine, it's all good. 753 00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:09,040 We're we're ordering the confetti now. 754 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,680 It's going to be amazing. You know, all I need advice on 755 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,000 is like, you know, what are we going to have for our appetizers 756 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,120 at the, at the the post IPO party? 757 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:22,000 What advice would you give to that person? 758 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:26,360 First, I'd say you need to delegate, maybe a. 759 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,560 Little bit more effectively. That doesn't seem like the 760 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,800 decision making. You should be focused one of 761 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,720 that moment. That might be a separation 762 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,960 conversation. I, you know, I think if, if 763 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,160 you're leading a people team that's, you know, scaling 764 00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,440 rapidly, it, it might be a little bit boring, but I think 765 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,800 it's like, go and check out your foundations. 766 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,000 Do you know what great looks like in leadership? 767 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:59,720 Do you have a clear, solid, you know, very wide, very deep bench 768 00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:03,360 of leaders who are either building to be ready for that 769 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:07,400 sort of executive level job or are ready now when you're sort 770 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,480 of like keeping them warm? I think we talked about it a 771 00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,120 little bit, but attrition is a really big, you know, really big 772 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,360 risk when you go through all these changes and all the 773 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,680 changes we sort of talked about. And so managing your risk around 774 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,560 attrition, particularly at that executive level. 775 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:30,680 I that would be my like #1 to get after and just really being 776 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,480 clear on sort of who, who is your succession slate? 777 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,840 Don't do 1 to 1 replacements, but really think about that next 778 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,760 leadership bench. I think sort of there's twofold. 779 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,160 1 is you may lose an executive. You don't really know how any 780 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,520 one person is feeling and things are changing. 781 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,680 And so I'm being prepared to have somebody to step into that 782 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,440 role. So that business continuity is 783 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,920 there as much as possible, I think is important. 784 00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,840 And then I also think these executives are about to move 785 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:05,400 into maybe the biggest role of their lives, maybe adding much 786 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,760 more complexity to their role in the day-to-day. 787 00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:10,880 The CEO, you know, we talked about is sort of going to go 788 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,320 have this different, different job, if you will. 789 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,160 And so if you've got a super strong set of leaders that are 790 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,920 there supporting and lifting up that executive group as they 791 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:25,000 step into this new moment, I think, you know, that's that's 792 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,520 huge as well. So yeah, focus on your bench, 793 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:32,000 get you ready now leaders set up and, and, and good to go. 794 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,440 And then sort of following from there. 795 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,400 Excellent advice SO. Have a like sort of a deep 796 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,640 talent pipeline. Like don't just assume that like 797 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,880 this All Star team that that sits at the C-Suite that they're 798 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:53,120 going to be there forever. Like we need to have good talent 799 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,320 at multiple levels and to be thoughtful about, you know, 800 00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,440 readiness and and succession is what I'm hearing like that, that 801 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,520 that, you know, like who wants to think about that when we're 802 00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,400 about to like all become, you know, gazillionaires? 803 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,840 But like, that's actually what we need to be thinking about 804 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,680 creating a really healthy, robust talent pipeline. 805 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,120 Exactly. And I feel like in these. 806 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,760 Moments because they are so exciting and everybody's like 807 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,080 ready for the next thing that sometimes that can slip away 808 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,200 like, Oh no, our executives are super excited to be here. 809 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,360 They've worked so hard to get to this moment. 810 00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,280 They're going to carry on doing this, you know, be here forever. 811 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,040 And, and actually, what we see in the data is sort of the 812 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,800 opposite of that. And so that can be yeah, that's, 813 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:38,080 that's sort of the recommendation. 814 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:43,720 Really, really good advice. Any parting thoughts? 815 00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:47,600 Any, you know, we, we covered a lot of ground here. 816 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:52,880 Gary and Kat, any, any parting thoughts or, or other advice 817 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,000 that you would give to our listeners who are keen to 818 00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,840 understand leadership in general, 'cause this is a 819 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:03,640 podcast about leadership, but also specifically in this 820 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:10,440 context of, of start up the scale up and how do we mature 821 00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:14,720 effectively, right? How do we mature effectively and 822 00:55:14,720 --> 00:55:20,880 intentionally? Cat Sart. 823 00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:26,280 Oh God. Well. 824 00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,080 You know, one thing that we haven't really, I don't think 825 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,600 we've touched on necessarily. So I'll throw it out there as, 826 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,120 as something to think about and, and not necessarily, you know, 827 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,120 final words of wisdom or anything like that. 828 00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,960 But I I've been thinking a lot about lately how we help 829 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,400 founders and executive teams that have been going through a 830 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,400 shift from the start up to more scale is how do we help them 831 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,040 really trust the experts that they have brought in and put in 832 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:59,760 place around them with the intention that these are experts 833 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,760 in this particular thing. And you know, maybe it's what, 834 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,320 yeah, it could be anything marketing, you know, accounting, 835 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:12,320 treasury, whatever, legal, but like hiring an expert at senior 836 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:18,600 levels and then how do you trust them and take their advice and 837 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:22,400 stay curious and know your own limitation in that space? 838 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,080 I think it's something that that at least instead of in my 839 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,280 experience is sometimes it's so hard for the CEO to say 840 00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,920 actually, I don't have an expertise in this area. 841 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,480 Maybe I don't know the rights of decision here. 842 00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,280 I've hired all these really expensive talent. 843 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,440 Let me get them in a room and they can tell us how we move 844 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,440 forward. And so I, you know, there's 845 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,880 something here around. Stay curious, stay humble and 846 00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,160 trust your experts. You've paid a lot of money for 847 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:54,560 them. You should be listening to them. 848 00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:02,200 Yeah, I, I, I have a a similar idea, but a bit of A twist, 849 00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:08,360 which is to say you should really try to match your exit to 850 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:13,600 your leadership capability. And the, the, the fact that an 851 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:18,440 IPO seems bright and shiny and amazing and you have this image 852 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,880 of yourself ringing the damn bell like that's amazing. 853 00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,800 But you may not be that kind of leader. 854 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,840 And there is no shame in you saying that. 855 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:32,960 My monetization of my business may come through other means 856 00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,880 which are just as fulfilling, but not maybe the IPO. 857 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,440 It's not like the IPO is the only exit. 858 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,840 It's not like the IPO is the best exit. 859 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:49,360 Like you need to really match a little bit and and to using 860 00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,560 Cat's word, being humble enough to recognize where your skill 861 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:57,080 set is and what is the exit that's going to match on what 862 00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:01,880 you can actually deliver you. You need to really be honest in 863 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,600 the end about that. Wow, the great. 864 00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:09,320 The great irony, you know, we're talking about IPO, which is this 865 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,320 like ecstatic moment. You know, you see, you know, 866 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,000 usually, I mean, not always, usually you need to see this 867 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:20,640 like big pop in the stock price and overnight, you know, people 868 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,440 become, you know, millionaires or, or, you know, that that 869 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,800 there's, there's this opportunity to get liquidity and 870 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:28,280 something they worked so hard for. 871 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,960 And wow, I imagine that could be something that could, could go 872 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,160 to, you know, one's head quickly. 873 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,200 But yet we're talking about, we're ending this podcast about 874 00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:42,920 leadership on the topic of humility being, you know, 875 00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:49,320 really, really significant, really important self-awareness, 876 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:56,760 humility, trust. And so I, I this is, this is 877 00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,760 fantastic. I think it's the perfect place 878 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:03,080 to, to stop. And I just want to thank you, 879 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:09,120 Gary and Kat, for taking the time to share your experiential 880 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,040 wisdom. So everybody knows you guys are 881 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,720 wicked smart and wise, but there's experience in the 882 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,480 trenches with these organizations, with these 883 00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,080 founders and CE OS that you bring to bear. 884 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:24,880 And it's just so valuable for us. 885 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,200 So, so thank you so much and thank you to all of our 886 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,480 listeners. This is a podcast about 887 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,240 leadership and looking forward to our next episode. 888 00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:37,120 Bye for now. Thank you.