1 00:00:15,170 --> 00:00:18,810 Welcome everyone. I'm Jonathan Kirschner and this 2 00:00:18,810 --> 00:00:23,690 is a podcast about leadership. Today is a very special day. 3 00:00:25,450 --> 00:00:30,810 First of all, I am wearing my All Star jersey from 25 years 4 00:00:30,810 --> 00:00:33,770 ago. It was a it was one of my 5 00:00:34,010 --> 00:00:38,600 moments of glory. It was an hour and and say 20 6 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,760 minutes of glory. Even though I got open eyes hit 7 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,680 and was probably the worst on the team. 8 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,440 I made the All Star team. And and to this day, many of you 9 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,840 know, I am absolutely in love with hockey and I'm in love with 10 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,440 hockey because I I grew up playing the sport and I think 11 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,080 it's the best, best game. OK, we could, we could debate 12 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:12,240 this, but I'm also fascinated with performance teaming and how 13 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,800 leadership plays a role in hockey. 14 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,360 And right now I'm actually captain of my team, the Philly 15 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:23,280 John, which is our cancer hockey team that it plays for a really 16 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,400 wonderful cancer charity called the RCCS Tournament. 17 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:34,000 And I'm joined here today with two incredible experts in the 18 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:40,240 field of psychology, performance and sport. 19 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:46,400 So we've got Simon Rice, who's the VP of athletic care for the 20 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,800 76ers. And I can't wait to hear about 21 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,240 what's going on with the 76ers. There's there's a really good, 22 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:58,240 good thing going on right now. We're set 7:00 and 4:00, Simon. 23 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,400 That's right, seven and four. 7 and 4 right now early, early in 24 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,720 the season, but seven and four and, and looking a lot like 25 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,640 looking really, really nice in general and, and, and 26 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,080 especially, you know, compared to to last year. 27 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,960 And we have Holly Benner, who is the associate director of global 28 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,640 talent management for Merck and it if you thought that would be 29 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:23,480 like enough to just have a day job working at the one of the 30 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,880 world's largest pharmaceutical companies helping empower and 31 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,440 inspire and, and enable leadership effectiveness. 32 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:38,560 She's also an ultra marathon runner and a a coach for both 33 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,440 business and, and sport professionals. 34 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,320 And so we're going to really immerse ourselves in leadership, 35 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:51,720 of course, but through the lens of sports psychology, 36 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:57,000 performance and what it takes to be excellent in that domain. 37 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,160 And that will be like fascinating. 38 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:07,120 If we could generalize that into the domain of organizational 39 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,640 effectiveness, that would be that would be delightful. 40 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:16,880 So with that said, welcome and and maybe we could just kick 41 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,280 ourselves like how did you guys get interested in this? 42 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,080 Maybe Holly, we can start with you. 43 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:27,120 Like how did you get interested in sport performance? 44 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:32,200 Sure, give me the journey. Yeah, I mean, and it has been a 45 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,480 journey, but at the same time, it's always been a part of who I 46 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:42,560 am and how I lived my life. So, you know, going way back, 47 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,760 got into Graduate School at Clemson, SC, I was really 48 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,400 interested in why and how people show up at this thing called 49 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,480 work. And the the concept of 50 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,840 retirement actually was very fascinating to me. 51 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,240 I studied retirement and Graduate School because it was 52 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,400 such an interesting way to have an identity as an employee. 53 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,000 So I was really fascinated by this concept and I studied a lot 54 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,600 of demographic differences when it comes to retirement. 55 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,839 But along my Graduate School, I was always a an athlete, a 56 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,080 student athlete ever since I was in elementary school. 57 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,920 I was a competitive swimmer at in the 6th grade. 58 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,640 I was doing double S in middle school. 59 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,480 So I was swimming before school, after school. 60 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:37,360 So this is a long standing habit that I've had when I've, you 61 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,560 know, been balancing getting the most out of myself athletically 62 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,640 and academically. And as I started my career after 63 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,120 Clemson, I really got focused in how people perform at work. 64 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,800 And I was really interested in the training and the environment 65 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,040 and what sets people up for success in whatever kind of 66 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,000 domain they are practicing. And I had the privilege of 67 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,520 working with a variety of of industries. 68 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,200 And the good news is that people are everywhere and some people 69 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,240 are kind of a little different. And I like to call those people 70 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,040 type A+. So along my career development, 71 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,040 I was also a competitive athlete. 72 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:20,000 I mentioned before swimming, swimming turned into rowing at a 73 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,160 very high level trying to make the 2012 team, which actually 74 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,520 brought me from Clemson, SC to Philadelphia, PA. 75 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,760 That transitioned into triathlon, which I competed at 76 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,880 an elite level as a professional triathlete. 77 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,720 And now I'm an elite marathoner and ultra marathoner. 78 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,880 Even though I keep getting older, I keep getting faster. 79 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,240 Didn't expect that to happen. But along these two 80 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,680 trajectories, my career and my passion, I've noticed again, 81 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,440 these type A+ people that like to live a big life. 82 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,400 And for many, many years I kept them very separate. 83 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,360 I was very worried that my identity as an athlete would 84 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,440 would conflict with my identity as a career high performer. 85 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,880 I didn't want to be seen like I was splitting my time and 86 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,560 attention in two different domains because how could I 87 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,600 possibly be high performing in two things? 88 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,280 And over time I got more comfortable with merging these 89 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:15,040 identities together because truly it was me and I was doing 90 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,600 both at a high level. And I had been a years ago, I 91 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,880 developed, you know, a coaching business. 92 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,360 People were coming to me. They was really organic. 93 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,120 People were like, hey, you do that thing I want to do, help me 94 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,720 do that thing you do. And so over the years I had 95 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,200 gotten what I call sets and reps more practice and experience as 96 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,240 a coach. And I recognized after 15 years 97 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,400 of coaching high performing athletes, multi sport athletes, 98 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,280 endurance athletes across the country, amateurs to 99 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,120 professionals, that they had something in common. 100 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,000 A lot of my clients were business owners, entrepreneurs, 101 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,480 executives, again, type A+. They want to get after it in all 102 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:02,280 works of all walks of life. So I decided to go to Brown 103 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:06,160 University and get my ICF credentialing and leadership and 104 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,800 performance coaching. And now I've been really 105 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,800 creating a space to bring these two worlds together where I can 106 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,520 help people uncover their best self in work, sport and life. 107 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,400 And I love it. Amazing. 108 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,680 I absolutely love that. And I love that your career 109 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,760 starred. I I love that the beginning of 110 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:31,800 this journey, it started in studying retirement. 111 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,000 And sometimes, you know, sometimes like a, a coach will 112 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,480 say, all right, let's start with what the end point you're trying 113 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,280 to reach is like. What does success look like one 114 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,560 year from now and then work backwards. 115 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,040 And it's just interesting to me that you chose to to start, you 116 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,320 know, this journey studying retirement, which is which is 117 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,200 fascinating. I love the integration. 118 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:02,720 Thank you, Holly. Folks, we have a bonus today. 119 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,120 We have Lindsay joining us with with sports performance 120 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,760 professionals, like they they come in and out like if things 121 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,680 are dynamic, right, team needs you, player needs you. 122 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,360 So I'm really, I mean, maybe you could, you know, speak to that 123 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,680 Lindsay, it we're just doing some introductions with Lindsay 124 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,000 Shaw, Director of Sports Psychology for the Cleveland 125 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,400 Guardians. And it's a pleasure to have you 126 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,640 on this call on this podcast today. 127 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,760 Thank you for having me, great to see you all. 128 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,520 I would have worn my team gear had I know. 129 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,200 It's not too late it. Was like a, you know, jersey 130 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:45,520 optional. Yeah. 131 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,720 But that is that is how it happens sometimes. 132 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,680 And just like in the world of business, sometimes there's a 133 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:56,280 fire drill and sometimes there's a fire and things happen. 134 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,000 And here we are. Well, here we are. 135 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,560 It's awesome to have you. Maybe, you know, just briefly, 136 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,120 like how did you get into this, to this field, into the role, 137 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,120 Give us a sense of the journey. And then and then Simon will 138 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:12,880 hear from you. And then we're going to dig into 139 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,800 to our topic of, of, of leadership and sport 140 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,800 performance. Simon, are you gone? 141 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,200 Sure, I can go. Sure. 142 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:30,520 So probably similar to to a lot of people as as a child I was 143 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,720 just active and interested in sport. 144 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,400 I tried to play as many as I could and that that involved. 145 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:39,200 I grew up in Australia, that was swimming, that was basketball, 146 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,800 it was cricket, that was OK, whatever that was. 147 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,680 I really enjoyed that play. It played all the way through 148 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,480 adolescence as well. And then then the same as 149 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,960 everybody, if there is a period that you have to make some 150 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,360 decisions about what you want to do with the rest of your life. 151 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,880 And for me, it was probably more of a process of things I wasn't. 152 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,240 I wasn't interested in doing more so than what I was 153 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,400 interested in doing. I knew that I was not at that 154 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,960 time, interested in doing something that involves sitting 155 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,320 down inside behind a computer. I didn't really know what I 156 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,240 wanted, but I had a pretty strong sense it wasn't something 157 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,920 like that. Certainly at that period I did a 158 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:21,800 fairly general sports science degree. 159 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,680 I started off working in the performance space across a lot 160 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:26,360 of different sports. That was in strength, 161 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,720 conditioning and and performance at an elite and professional 162 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:35,640 sports level. From there that that developed 163 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,920 my interest in injury rehabilitation. 164 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,360 I went back and studied physical therapy and then and then 165 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,280 subsequent master's in physical therapy. 166 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,600 Very focused on sport and exercise again. 167 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,440 Spent some time working in, in a lot of different team, 168 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,360 individual Olympic, Paralympic sports. 169 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,200 So quite a large variety. A little sabbatical there where 170 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,840 I actually was in London, worked on some West End shows and and 171 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,360 ballet. So, so performance at a very 172 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,520 high level in a different space. And then now this is my sixth 173 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,880 season in my role with the 76ers and that's a different role 174 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,240 again. In this one, I sit across A-Team 175 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,000 across a, a team of clinicians, which is physical therapists, 176 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,920 massage therapists, sports science, nutrition, psychology, 177 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,880 strength and conditioning and trying to look at the whole 178 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,200 athlete and human being. And then how do we, how do we 179 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,360 reduce illness and injury and maximize performance, which is 180 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:32,960 really, really interesting to me. 181 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:37,600 And what I, what I would say. And I think this leads into some 182 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,000 of the things we're going to discuss having having had the, 183 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,200 the privilege, I suppose, of working in different countries 184 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,080 and, and so many different areas and, and, and more recently 185 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,680 being exposed to the business side through your podcast, 186 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:51,840 through some of the stuff that you do. 187 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,080 Jonathan, what I'm, what I've learned and I'm continuing to 188 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,480 learn is there's so many more similarities and there are 189 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,840 differences and, and that there's so many more common 190 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,040 themes across sports, across business, across different 191 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,880 facets of performance than there are, there are differences. 192 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:11,880 And, and that's something I'm I'm really interested in. 193 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,720 Nice. Yeah, there's that, that common 194 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,520 denominator of people. I think that. 195 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:24,720 People, everything involves human beings and, and you know, 196 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,560 it's funny, you know, it's funny how, how that changes 197 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:33,680 everything. Yeah, no, it's, that's amazing. 198 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:38,000 I, I, I love it. Simon fascinated about how, how 199 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,920 you keep, you know, it seems almost probably like a balancing 200 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,000 act between all those different facets. 201 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,240 I mean, there must have been like 6 to 8 different facets of 202 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:53,840 performance and sort of injury prevention that you oversee. 203 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,960 And I'll be curious to know, like, how do you sort of keep 204 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,840 that in harmony and what do you do when it gets out of harmony? 205 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,200 So that that would be something. Maybe we come back to Lindsay. 206 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,200 How about you? How did you you know? 207 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,400 How did you get to where you are right now? 208 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:15,000 Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to share. I guess it's just lingering in 209 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,680 my mind what where Simon kind of left it. 210 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,560 I think the, the interesting thing about coming from the 211 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:25,240 world of sport is that it's so obvious, right? 212 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,600 The performance is, is, is pretty obvious. 213 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,680 Like you're running faster, you're not, you're pitching with 214 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:33,760 precision or you're not, you know, you're injured, you're not 215 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:36,840 in the business world. There's maybe these subtleties, 216 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,320 but I like in my position, my background as a sports 217 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:46,680 psychologist, there's there's a, you know, what looks like maybe 218 00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:49,480 simple run faster, jump higher, you know, do do this. 219 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,400 There's a lot of like these internal dynamics that play into 220 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,560 that. It's not always, I mean, I'm 221 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,000 sure it's similar and basketball or maybe and running Holly like 222 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,040 or in in hockey for you, Jonathan, it's so tempting to 223 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,120 say like, oh, we just, we just got to fix the guy's technique 224 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,480 and then everything's going to get better. 225 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,680 And if it was just that simple teams would only have technical 226 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:11,600 coaches. They wouldn't have all of these 227 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:18,160 other other specialists. So, so to, to my, my background, 228 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,200 I, you know, I was pretty interested in lots of different 229 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,760 sports, you know, did gymnastics at a fairly high level, competed 230 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:31,600 in college. I was always fascinated as a 231 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,560 gymnast. Like what, you know, why could I 232 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,840 do this skill 5 seconds ago I did it no problem. 233 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,920 I felt, you know, it wasn't that scary. 234 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,400 And now all the sudden I'm like, like the balance being right, 235 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,600 you're supposed to go like, flip, flip, flip, flip in a row. 236 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,120 And then I'm. I'm ready to start. 237 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,240 And all of a sudden, like, whoa, that like, what's going on? 238 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,000 I just. I always, I always found that 239 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,760 really interesting. I had the privilege of meeting 240 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,840 the sports psychologist who trained me in Graduate School 241 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,480 when I was a teenager. And I was like, gonna be just 242 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,400 like you, buddy, when I grow up. That's awesome. 243 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,400 Yeah. So and then, you know, and 244 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,920 competed sports in college and then was still kind of not 245 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,520 exactly sure what I wanted to do. 246 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,360 I was, I went to the University of Pennsylvania. 247 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,720 I was really influenced by Martin Seligman's work there in 248 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,760 positive psychology. And I think it had kind of 249 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,800 mapped on to sports psychology for me. 250 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,880 I studied sports psychology a little bit in high school. 251 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,920 I went to a boarding school. They let you do independent 252 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,720 studies. So I did some of that. 253 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,320 Yeah. And I just went to Graduate 254 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,120 School. I did my dissertation research 255 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:40,040 and psychophysiology. So sort of measuring and 256 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,800 training the mind, body connection, so like brain waves, 257 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,840 heart rate, rhythms. And I was lucky that the US 258 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,120 Olympic Committee was looking to start a laboratory right when I 259 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,400 finished grad school. I had designed a laboratory for 260 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,320 a sports school in Joha, Qatar. And they wanted me to design 261 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,080 and, you know, training staff, provide athletes. 262 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,200 So I got a job at the Olympic Committee and after about a 263 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,600 decade there, I made the jump to Major League Baseball. 264 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,160 That's been about five years. And it's kind of similar to what 265 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,000 you raised, Simon, and similar to the topic of, you know, our 266 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,640 panel and this podcast. I've, I mean, there's a lot that 267 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,400 goes into performance right now, whether it's that, I mean, it's 268 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,680 like business planning, conceptualizing deals, giving 269 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,120 presentations. I mean, we just do it in a in a 270 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,080 different domain. But yeah, there's a way you can 271 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,680 measure, assess, plan, work with the internal dynamics and 272 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,760 prepare someone to perform that's really similar across 273 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,120 domains. Wow, Wow. 274 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,080 Well, I do, you know, there's a common denominator as well 275 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:50,640 between you, Lindsay and Simon, both of your respective teams, 276 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:57,280 you know, have most recently or currently going through what 277 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:59,400 could arguably be called a turn around, right. 278 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,360 And so I'm just just really interesting, like interested in 279 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,280 this phenomena. Like imagine I just, you know, 280 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,640 I'm an alien that just came down, you know, from space and 281 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,960 I'm at a game and and I see a team that was stuck or 282 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,359 stagnating or losing and all of a sudden now it's like there's 283 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,520 this positive momentum. So very curious about about that 284 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,000 phenomenon. So when I put it in the parking 285 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,960 lot for a SEC, I want to just dive into the big broad question 286 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,480 of like individual performance. So, so Holly, like you talked 287 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,640 about like something we all share as athletes is this sort 288 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,720 of a plus mindsets. Like if we're going to do it, 289 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,480 we're going to do it like we're going to go sort of all out. 290 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,840 But then, you know, you have all these athletes that are going 291 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,800 all out and only a few, you know, a very select few make it 292 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:55,080 to the elite level or, or the, the, the Major League Baseball 293 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,280 or the NBA or the NHL or the NFL, right. 294 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,400 So, you know, I, I'm curious, like you mentioned sets and reps 295 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:10,280 and technique, but that only gets you so far, right? 296 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,680 And, and, and that's where, you know, there's a point of 297 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,400 divergent where excellent, you know, where good goes to 298 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,320 excellent, excellent then get separated from elite. 299 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,880 I'm curious, like how from your perspective, do people become 300 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,360 beyond just excellent? How did they become an elite 301 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:35,120 athlete? Like what is it that that is 302 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:37,760 what's behind that from your perspective? 303 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,960 And if you have a story or an anecdote or an intervention, you 304 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:45,800 know, obviously you can keep it, you know, confidential. 305 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,360 I'd just be very curious. I know from from my perspective, 306 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:54,040 I mean, I can easily say they're cut a little different. 307 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,920 They're cut from a different cloth, maybe a little 308 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,360 compulsive, maybe a little crazy. 309 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,160 So in in the nature nurture, like there is something, you 310 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,400 know, when I think about cloth, like there's something about. 311 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,520 Yeah, there's traits and they're individual. 312 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:12,040 I mean, like you can say gifted, you know it, more resilient from 313 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,520 an injury perspective, willing to really commit themselves to 314 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,720 living a monk life if needed, right, stripped down the 315 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,560 distractions, etcetera. But truly, over my experience 316 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:30,120 working one-on-one with athletes at a high level, I think the one 317 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:33,680 thing that differentiates a great high performer is because 318 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:38,080 they love it. They love it so much they can't 319 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,800 think about anything else except going to bed so they can get up 320 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,600 in the morning and do that thing that they love. 321 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,080 And I think that's the one aspect that maybe doesn't get 322 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,880 talked enough about. It's not. 323 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,200 And that's not to say that discipline isn't required and 324 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,720 that motivation isn't required, that there's going to be hard 325 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,760 days when you wake up and you'd rather stay in bed. 326 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,320 But more often than not, I think the best high performers are 327 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,240 truly those athletes that love what they're doing. 328 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,040 They wouldn't want to do anything else. 329 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,720 It's like this intense fervor. Yes. 330 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:15,040 That's. Interesting. 331 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,280 I don't know what you know, my colleagues here would have to 332 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,920 say, but in in my experience, and I'm assuming that cuts 333 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,480 across different sport types, but if you really don't love it, 334 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,080 some people could boil it down to the why. 335 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,040 What's your why? You have to have a compelling 336 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,640 reason to keep engaging and frankly, at least an endurance, 337 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,840 an ultra endurance sport, something that hurts for a long 338 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,800 time. You have to have a really strong 339 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,400 reason and and I believe that the strongest reason is love. 340 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,360 It's amazing. I I, I love that. 341 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,760 I your questions in my mind, like can you over index on that? 342 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Like what happens if you love it too much? 343 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,720 Like is there any well, that's compulsive, you know, risk 344 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,200 there. Yeah, Compulsion. 345 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,720 Yeah. And yes, you can do things 346 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,200 compulsively and that's not healthy. 347 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,880 And I would actually say that's not love because you're loving 348 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,840 the behavior more than yourself. And, and truly, that's why I 349 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,960 named my company, one of the reasons I named my company Meta 350 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,560 Metta, which is Buddhist for loving kindness because I 351 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,480 believe truly that the route to performance is from loving it 352 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,560 and loving yourself, not wow, go hard or go home. 353 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,240 It's cultivating a sense of loving kindness for yourself. 354 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,080 That's beautiful. I love that. 355 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,760 Awesome, Simon, Lindsay, what what from your perspective, you 356 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,760 know, what goes into like beyond the sets and reps and and the 357 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:52,040 focus on technique, what is behind, you know, high, high 358 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,160 performance, I I think. I think I'm going to say 359 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,200 something really obvious, but it's worth mentioning. 360 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,480 It is really, really hard to win things. 361 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:08,280 And it's really, really hard to be the top at anything, right? 362 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,680 And I think we sometimes forget, you know, in my world at the 363 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,560 moment, I work with a professional basketball team. 364 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,040 We, we really want to win games of basketball, but so does the 365 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,400 other team, you know, they really want to win as well. 366 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,400 And it's difficult to do that. And, and it's difficult to do 367 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,920 that when things are easy. And by easy, I mean one game a 368 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,080 week and then you have a day off and then we get time to 369 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,120 practice. It's even harder when you're 370 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:33,720 doing that. You're flying to a different 371 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:34,600 city. You're getting it through 372 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,040 getting in at 3:00 AM, you then need to get up in a hotel room, 373 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,400 you need to go and get some shots up. 374 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,800 You need to practice, then you need to play again that night. 375 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,920 So I would start by saying it's very, very hard. 376 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,640 And that means I agree. There has to be, there has to be 377 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,520 some, there has to be some passion, there has to be some 378 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,360 enjoyment, there has to be some love and there needs to be a lot 379 00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,880 of resilience. And, and again, I would, I think 380 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:04,000 that sounds obvious, but it's all of that multiplied by a long 381 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,080 period of time. And I, and for me that's one of 382 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,080 the differences. A lot of people can do hard 383 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,080 things for a short period of time and a lot of people can do 384 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,760 hard things when things are going well. 385 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,680 It's very, very difficult to do hard things very consistently 386 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,160 for a long period of times, a long period of time. 387 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,280 And I do think that's one of the biggest differentiators. 388 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Now, I would caveat that by there is a subgroup of people in 389 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,040 every profession and sport is one of them that will succeed at 390 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,040 the highest level in spite of everything else. 391 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,160 They are so naturally gifted in spite of the program, in spite 392 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,120 of what they're doing, they will be at the top. 393 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,240 But that's, you know, I'll probably get these statistics 394 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,080 wrong, but it's going to be in the right ballpark. 395 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,160 In basketball, percentage of players that play at high school 396 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,440 that make it to college is, you know, a low percent. 397 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,160 The percentage of college basket play, college basketball players 398 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,440 that make it to a professional level is under is 1% roughly. 399 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,920 And then the percentage of those people that have any length of 400 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,760 career is obviously below 1%. So we're talking about the, you 401 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,280 know, the 1% of the 1% in this area. 402 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:15,680 Now there is a group of people that will that will no matter 403 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,160 what they do, succeed. But the vast, vast majority, in 404 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,400 my opinion, it is a lot of work over a long period of time where 405 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,800 it is very difficult to have a chance to succeed. 406 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,080 Wow. OK, so resilience, Lindsey, no. 407 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,080 I'm just going to say I, I wish I I, I reviewed these statistics 408 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,600 for my spring training talk. I think it was in 2024 where I 409 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,640 went. I mean, there's like there's 410 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,480 published it. It's like, I don't know, Sam, 411 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,640 it's like in the US at least, like 4% of high school players 412 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,160 going to play college and then 1% of D1 players going to pro. 413 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,480 And then this, you know, like, and it's like just like this 414 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,560 smaller and smaller. I mean, yeah. 415 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,200 So to that's it's just insanely hard. 416 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,680 Jonathan I. It's no, no, it's incredible. 417 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,600 And, and I think about, you know, you can, you can love it 418 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,040 and have this incredible passion. 419 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,000 You can be incredibly resilient. But then like when everything, 420 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,360 when all the force is, is like against you, when you know, 421 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,960 you're, you're losing and then you're losing and you're, you're 422 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,000 trying your hardest, but then you lose. 423 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,360 And then there's like a little bit of toxicity maybe in the 424 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,320 locker room or in the, in the team. 425 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,000 And, and, and all of a sudden, like that passion, that 426 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,920 unbridled passion that that brought you into the sport. 427 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,520 You know, you're, you're in midway into your career and 428 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,840 you're just not feeling it anymore. 429 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,000 What, what do we do there? You know, like, do we see that 430 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,160 and, and, and how do you, like, how do you turn that around at 431 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,320 the individual level? I'm curious also at the team 432 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:56,640 level, but like at the individual level. 433 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,080 Like how do you get through a rut? 434 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,560 I mean, we see this in business, right? 435 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,480 I almost want to throw the question back at you. 436 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,400 When you see a career plateau or burnout at work, what's the 437 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,520 solution? Yeah. 438 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,800 I mean, when, when times are great, it's, it's, you know, 439 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,840 it's, you know, performance is, is it's much easier because you 440 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,800 have all this, this tailwind behind your back, right? 441 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,480 And you're, you're operating your best. 442 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,080 And, and when you're under these heightened levels of stress and 443 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,600 pressure for a protracted period of time, then we're more 444 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:40,960 vulnerable to derailment, to depression, to different forms 445 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,040 of anxiety. And it's, it's really tough. 446 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,480 So, so from, from my perspective and, and the work that I do as 447 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,560 an executive coach and as ACEO exposed to these pressures on a 448 00:26:53,840 --> 00:27:01,480 hourly basis, it's I, I'll tell you, I mean, I, I would concur 449 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,040 that with, with the importance of staying grounded in 450 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,920 resilience, that and resilient and, and, and engaging in these 451 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,040 self-care practices that help you get through the bumps and 452 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,880 the, and the tough times and always grounding yourself in the 453 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,840 North Star purpose of, of what we're doing. 454 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,120 But it, it's also really, really valuable to have sort of some, 455 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,320 some trusted advisors around you, people who can provide both 456 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,840 support 'cause you just can't, you just can't do it alone. 457 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:48,320 You just can't right and and feedback like, dude, are you OK? 458 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,760 You know, you're you're you seem a little anxious. 459 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,000 You've been talking really fast or what? 460 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,640 You know, not everything made 100% sense. 461 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,160 Is everything all right to be able to get that, that candid 462 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,160 feedback? That's not judge mental, That's 463 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:10,920 that's constructive and the support that that is, is, is 464 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,880 really, really valuable alongside the the, you know, I 465 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,160 can call it emotional fortitude, which is this combination of, 466 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,160 of, of being centered and always focused on on North Star. 467 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,120 There's also a piece to us, by the way, which is just around 468 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:34,280 believing and hope and having conviction that we're going to 469 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,360 get there. And I think when when I look at 470 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:42,360 leaders that are really, really successful CE OS, they've all 471 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,720 gone through bad years and great years and hopefully more great 472 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,760 years than bad years. But what makes them stand out is 473 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,160 they have a belief and they, they believe so strongly that 474 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,800 they, it's almost like they will it into existence, which is very 475 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,440 cool. So that's, that's a little bit 476 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,760 from what I see in my world. Unfortunately, I don't have a a 477 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,960 a trainer, chef, psychology, you know, you know, performance 478 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:19,560 psychologist and the the team of 6 to 8 that Simon manages on a 479 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,120 daily basis. Not always helpful, right? 480 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,480 Like I think. OK. 481 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,080 Yeah, that's not always helpful. You know if you have. 482 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,400 I have that on my bucket list, you're saying? 483 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,200 That's that. No, it more often is obviously, 484 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,080 you know, if you have a, if you have a series of experts in 485 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,640 their domain trying to help you figure something out that you 486 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,000 know, that you, you assume that is, that's very beneficial. 487 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,840 And on the whole it absolutely is. 488 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,160 But in that scenario where something is not not going as 489 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,840 well as we would like that whether that is performance 490 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,840 based, whether that is an injury that's taking longer than we 491 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,920 expected, whether that's coming back and having a second injury 492 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,480 or a set back or something like that. 493 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,920 The, the, the tendency is in a very, from a very positive 494 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,840 place. Every person involved in that 495 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,720 person's care to dive in to try and help fix it right from a 496 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,880 very, very good, good place. Sometimes what that can cause 497 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,800 very easily is a lot of different messages, a lot of 498 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,840 different solutions, a lot of a lot of crossover methodology, 499 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,840 methodology or planning and a lot of confusion. 500 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:35,360 So, so it's not uncommon for that problem to be expanded from 501 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,600 a lot of people diving in to try and do the right thing. 502 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,120 And that that's a, that's a challenge on its own because, 503 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,640 because a lot, and we've spoken about this before, one of the 504 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,680 things I certainly have found in my role here is we very rarely 505 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,000 miss things we do, but it's not common. 506 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,400 We very rarely miss things where, where we, we do tend to 507 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,920 have more issues is we do things two or three or four times. 508 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,200 And that's that's because everyone is trying to help and 509 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,160 that caused a different set of challenges. 510 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,680 So it comes with this really great place, but it can, I mean 511 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,000 if if left unwatched or or managed, I mean they just create 512 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,960 chaos I imagine. I mean a lot of redundancy at at 513 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,720 at at minimum. Best redundancy? 514 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,440 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. 515 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,120 Wow, that's that's really interesting. 516 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,360 Thinking in baseball, we have the luxury of a lot of data and 517 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,880 to Simon's point, it, it needs to be titrated. 518 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,280 And so the player doesn't receive every single thing that 519 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,520 all of the analysts, you know, produce or that all of the 520 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,120 sports science and sport performance teams first Med, you 521 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,760 know, contribute together to like our conceptualization of 522 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,720 what might be going on. Something that's really 523 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,920 important in sport, in other performance domains is getting 524 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,240 the performers perspective right. 525 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,240 So in this scenario that you're describing, oh, it's kind of 526 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,480 like, I don't know, I've lost my love for the game, but I live in 527 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,600 the business world, you know, to really understanding like what's 528 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,120 going on? What else is going on? 529 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,440 How long has this been going on? So like having the conversation, 530 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,440 thinking, did you recently welcome a child and you're 531 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,240 really under recovered and you have more prominent negative 532 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,320 mood States and everything is just kind of crummy right now. 533 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:20,400 Like, is that what's going on? Is there some sort of unexamined 534 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,320 existential crisis that's brewing and you're trying to, 535 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,320 you know, I mean, it could be a lot of different things, but you 536 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,720 need to have the person's, you know, voice, the performers 537 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,600 voice. And then to the extent that you 538 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,680 have access to the these others, like you said, you know, 539 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:39,000 soliciting feedback from people who are in your work world, in 540 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:44,880 your other support world, if you have access to data, you know, I 541 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,720 mean, even if it's something, it is something like you gave a 542 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,760 presentation, you're feeling kind of crummy about it. 543 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,520 Well, why are you feeling crummy about it? 544 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,680 Well, I don't know, let's go look at the presentation. 545 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,360 Or would you rather avoid it? I mean, like in sport, there's a 546 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,280 whole lot of like confronting you did that 40,000 people were 547 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,840 watching you live. How however many other people 548 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,840 were watching you and, and everyone saw it like, so we, 549 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,960 there's a whole lot of like, it's harder to avoid sometimes 550 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,960 in the world of sport. That gives me the chills just 551 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,000 thinking about the, the stakes of that. 552 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,560 But I mean, how often, what, when, when you see somebody like 553 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,040 not living up to what many believe is their, their 554 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:31,160 potential, you know, how often is that a function of, you know, 555 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,680 something brewing under the hood? 556 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,560 And, and, and when, and you know, in those instances, like 557 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,160 how are you intervening? Like how does that practically 558 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,960 like get metabolized and and the individual get to the other side 559 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,720 of that? It's a hard question because 560 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,320 everybody's a little bit different. 561 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,200 You know, I focus a lot with the internal dialogue and how an 562 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,800 athlete talks to themselves because words are so important. 563 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,520 And Jonathan, you mentioned earlier talking about, you know 564 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,400 a business professional that is optimistic and says we will get 565 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,400 there. That is fundamentally different 566 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,000 than we have to get there. It's very different energy. 567 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,000 We will get there for OK. So let's unpack that. 568 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,880 We will get there versus we have to get there. 569 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,000 Yes, one's compulsive, one's optimistic. 570 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,760 Oh, and that's so subtle, but I'm. 571 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,400 I'm seeing it. Yeah, but. 572 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,639 Words are very powerful. So typically I, I, I work 573 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:35,679 individually, not with teams. So that's the differentiator 574 00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,679 here. But truly I am interested and 575 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,280 this is where the skill of coaching is so powerful. 576 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,639 Regardless if we're working with an executive or an athlete, you 577 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,239 need to ask the right questions so that we can get insight. 578 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,840 How are they talking to themselves? 579 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,920 What are the stakes? What matters? 580 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,600 What do they want? So how are they leading 581 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,560 themselves? Are they, are they pushing, you 582 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,680 know, towards something and in an almost like unsustainable, 583 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,600 unrealistic way, like we have to get there and, and it's almost 584 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,920 like punishing. Or are we being inspiring and, 585 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,880 and leading with, with, with meta, with love of, of myself? 586 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,360 Like we, we will get there. Like, it may not be a straight 587 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,440 line, but we're going to get there. 588 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,280 Yes, and we know that a mindset is a skill. 589 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,400 You can train mindfulness and awareness. 590 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,000 Yeah, just like you can train coaching skills. 591 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,120 On the note of coaching, I just like, I want to pivot just for a 592 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,520 moment to like, OK, so so you all had coaches work for 593 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,720 coaches, our coaches in some instances, right? 594 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:49,480 Like have you seen coaches use the the will you we will get 595 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,600 there versus we have to get there? 596 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,720 And is there a pattern of like one works better than the other? 597 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,640 Like, you know, I was just curious because I've seen, you 598 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,480 know, in hockey, I've seen like really like, you know, hard ass 599 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,720 coaches like, you know, I'm not going to say names. 600 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,640 And, and in one year the team won the Stanley Cup. 601 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,400 And in the last four years, his team, his he he he left that 602 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,440 team, went to a different team. And, and they're just completely 603 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,640 All Star team, very unsuccessful team. 604 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,960 And then you have the the inspirational coach who, you 605 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,920 know, wins the Stanley Cup, but then also like, you know, may 606 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,360 not deliver in in subsequent years. 607 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,960 So I'm just curious if there's any like like how we're thinking 608 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,240 about this from from a coaching and even like say leadership 609 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,840 standpoint I. Think the answer is it's really 610 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,400 complicated, right? Because like, I mean, for a 611 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,240 coach, you know, you're inheriting players and staff and 612 00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,360 I mean, there's can be ownership, there can be lots of 613 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,120 complicated. The context it can be extremely 614 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,320 complex. But but to Holly's point, so 615 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,200 this like have to or will have to get to, right? 616 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,360 I mean, what underneath that it's approach versus avoidance, 617 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,520 right? So when you're when you're when 618 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,440 there's a challenge, you can view it as like this is a 619 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,160 challenge as an opportunity or this is a threat, right? 620 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,160 So like when there's a when there's a challenge or an 621 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,760 opportunity, woohoo, like I can approach it when it's presented 622 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,400 as a threat, you know, like you might want, you might want to 623 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:24,840 avoid, you might want to run away. 624 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,440 I used to work with wrestling and I would make this really bad 625 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,760 show to wrestlers. Like you can't opt out, like you 626 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,760 can't hop off the mat. Like you're there, you're there 627 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,800 and you're doing it. There's no backing away no 628 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,760 matter how. I mean, yes, OK, maybe you're 629 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,560 you don't persist and then and the match is over. 630 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,240 You tap out. Yeah, yeah. 631 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,600 But like, you're in, you're there. 632 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,840 It's happening, right. So whereas other other athletes, 633 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,040 you know, they'll kind of like pull themselves away, like in 634 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,560 subtle ways, they can forego the opportunity to perform. 635 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,640 And fundamentally it's, you know, maybe they're injured, 636 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,040 maybe there's something else going on. 637 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,280 They have conceptualized the challenge as a threat as opposed 638 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,680 to an opportunity. So I mean, coaches, you can be a 639 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,440 challenging coach backed up by a lot of like love and care and 640 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,640 support you, you can be perceived as like demanding and 641 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,240 really supportive. And that can cause athletes like 642 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:24,680 their nervous systems to, you know, approach like I here I go. 643 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,800 I, I can do this as opposed to like, I'm, I'm going to go away 644 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,800 from this. So I think there, there is what 645 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,720 Holly's raising there, there is this undertone to the way we 646 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,640 work with ourselves, the way we work, you know, when we're 647 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:42,280 coaching another person, a team of people, but there, I mean, 648 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,720 there's, there's data like down to the cellular level. 649 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:48,240 We, we know this like from exposure therapy when so let's 650 00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:49,680 say someone's afraid of something. 651 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,680 If you can get them to willingly say, I hate this, I'm afraid of 652 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,800 it and I'm going to approach it anyways. 653 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,560 They have a different kind of a stress response as opposed to 654 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,240 like me trying to force, like you ever try to force your kid 655 00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:04,320 to get a vaccine? It's it doesn't work out. 656 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,480 Whereas if you can, you can like say to your kid, OK, I know you 657 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:08,680 don't want to do it and we're going to do it. 658 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,800 And here's all the thing you know, different things are 659 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,840 activated in the nervous system. Yeah, it's interesting. 660 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,680 Like I 'cause I came at this with more of a binary like, like 661 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,920 you're either like hardcore push or you're very supportive in 662 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,040 pull. But there is this sort of like, 663 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,880 you know, more nuanced approach where you're using both 664 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:32,000 strategies of push and pull and maybe adapting it. 665 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,560 You know, I wonder if like the best coaches are sort of 666 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,600 adapting it to what they think the player needs. 667 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,360 Like maybe somebody needs a real kick in the ass, but this one 668 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,400 really needs to be nurtured and coddled and and. 669 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,080 Yeah, you can't just be a dictator or a cheerleader. 670 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,600 You have to be. You got to, you got to, Yeah, 671 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,640 it's, I guess it's situational leadership, right? 672 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,000 And yeah, Simon, any, any thoughts on this one? 673 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,200 I mean, you've been, you've been around, you've seen a lot of 674 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,680 coaches. I have and I've seen a a a huge 675 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,760 range of everything everyone is talking about. 676 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:15,120 I would say my initial reaction is that you know, this idea that 677 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,560 the methods, there are many in concepts. 678 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:23,520 There are a few, you know, like these concepts of belief 679 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,440 conviction you mentioned, but a plan and the plan can change. 680 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,480 Adaptability is really important and been overarching. 681 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,120 You know, I've seen coaches approach that in so many 682 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,720 different ways. I've worked with authoritarian 683 00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:44,200 coaches, I've worked with micromanaging coaches. 684 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,360 I've worked with really, really successful coaches of all types. 685 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,160 And the things that, that I, my first thought when you, when you 686 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,800 mentioned that where I've seen many ways be successful. 687 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,080 Now that's different coaches, It's also different athletes. 688 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:01,960 There's different players, there's different backgrounds, 689 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,560 there's different ages. It's all sorts of those things. 690 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,640 But the themes that jump to mind for me are they, they have some 691 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,360 sort of plan, they're adaptable and they have this almost 692 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,080 unwavering conviction or belief that, that, that we can figure 693 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,040 this out together. That together might be the team, 694 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,840 it might be the coach and the player, it might be the entire 695 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,240 group, it might be the organization. 696 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,080 But we can figure anything out and we're and we're committed to 697 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,040 doing that. Yeah, I think when I think about 698 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,640 it, so it's fascinating. And what I'm hearing is a common 699 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,280 theme. Is it like that, that 700 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,840 situational It's, it's less about the style and more about 701 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,120 the adaptability in the moment to what the team and what the, 702 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,160 the the players need. But the point around like having 703 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,960 that like ultra conviction, even when things are like, you know, 704 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,600 we're losing, we're like 5, we've lost five games straight, 705 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:56,080 but you still believe. I, I, I imagine a real turning 706 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:00,360 point for a coach is, is like when, when that belief, you 707 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,360 know, let let's even about the style and their approach. 708 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,840 But if that conviction like crosses below a certain point, 709 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,320 it, it's, it's like the beginning of the end, though, 710 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,400 because, because the team is just riding so much on that, 711 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,320 that they need their leader to be, to have that, that, that, 712 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,640 that hope and conviction that we can do it. 713 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,440 Can we talk for a second about turnarounds and and like the 714 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:32,360 phenomena of a turn around? I've kind of gone through it 715 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,280 myself as a hockey player. Like again, I mentioned four 716 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,840 years, 4 bad years of losing and then one year where we just like 717 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,000 came out of nowhere and won the cup. 718 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,640 I actually, you know, brought my hat. 719 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,000 I'm going to put it right here. So everybody knows that we won 720 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,800 the championship. Unfortunately, I, we can't find 721 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,680 the cup. My, it's, it's being passed 722 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,760 around and we can't find it. So once I locate that, we'll, 723 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,640 we'll have that on the podcast. Probably somebody's drinking 724 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,760 beer, somebody's dog's drinking beer out of it right now. 725 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,640 But but yeah, the players, the player composition on my team 726 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,560 didn't change, but we but, but we changed and we won. 727 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,440 I have some, some theories about it, but you all are the, the 728 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,920 experts here, so curious about turnarounds and, and how we get 729 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:23,400 at the team level out of a rut and, and you know, into, you 730 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,640 know, a, a, a winning dynamic well. 731 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:33,520 I think when, OK, back in those four years where you were not 732 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,880 getting WS, how certain were you? 733 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,960 Like we get really granular in sport. 734 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,240 Like these processes work, right? 735 00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:45,960 This bat speed, this bat path, this at this launch angle, this, 736 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,880 you know, like we're, we have some level of certainty around 737 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,160 what increases our chances of success. 738 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,280 And I mean, at the, you know, the psychology level, it's like 739 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,000 I, I know I need to have like kind of my nervous system kind 740 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,360 of like this, or I need to be reminding myself of these cues. 741 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,280 Maybe I need to be in the cages like for hitters or if some 742 00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:07,480 pitchers come in and like I need to do this kind of warm up to 743 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,880 prepare my body into my mind, you know, my mind to, you know, 744 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:11,480 increase my chances of performing well. 745 00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:17,840 So how certain were you of your processes when you were losing? 746 00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:27,040 Highly uncertain, but I, I honestly I think you know, OK, 747 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,240 so, so parallels like corporate and sports. 748 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,360 On the corporate side, our research on team effectiveness 749 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,560 would indicate that that the two primary ingredients for 750 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,800 successes is team productivity, right? 751 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,920 So how effectively efficiently we get things done, how 752 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,240 coordinated we are. So that's kind of like the 753 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:49,320 domain or ballpark that that you're talking about. 754 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,400 Like how clear are we about the technical side of what we're 755 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,800 doing and how we're communicating and, and, and 756 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,600 coordinating. And then there's team culture, 757 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,040 which is sort of like how it feels to be on this team, the 758 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,120 emotional social intelligence. Does it feel safe? 759 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:13,000 Are we taking pride? And if I was to be honest, while 760 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,680 in the model in our research, they're almost like equal 761 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,640 weighted, I actually think when I look at back at my team, part 762 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,120 of the reason why we were unsuccessful was because we had 763 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,560 deficient team culture. And so in some ways it it 764 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,680 doesn't even matter if we were good or not good from a, from a 765 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,480 technical performance standpoint, because nobody 766 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,600 really was like happy per SE. Nobody felt gelled. 767 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,920 People weren't jazzed like to be doing this together. 768 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,400 And well, and you're playing ice hockey, right? 769 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,040 You're not, you're not aggregating scores as gymnasts 770 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,600 competing separately. And you know, you're not doing a 771 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,720 relay where in my, you know, I could do my best performance and 772 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:57,280 then I don't have to really like you, but I can pass you the 773 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,600 time. Like there's, there's, there's 774 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,480 different levels of like interdependency, like how much 775 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,000 do you actually need to be coordinating with your teammates 776 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:10,280 and, and ice hockey really fast. And you really have to be 777 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,360 operating from this sort of shared mind so that you know 778 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,080 where you are, you know you're going to pass the puck and to 779 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:17,560 where he's not, but where he will be. 780 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,480 So, yeah, if you, if you do not have that groupiness with your 781 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:30,240 teammates that that will be like an an emergent negative dynamic 782 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:34,960 and take no matter how skillful you are, if you're not together 783 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,680 enough to work from the same sort of mental model of what's 784 00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,680 going to happen. So yeah, correcting that 785 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:45,200 probably unleashed the this latent skill that that wasn't 786 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,920 showing up on the ice. I I think it really depends on 787 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,160 how. 100% and, and, and to now spoiler what happened was one of 788 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,000 the players and, and he was the only new player to the team. 789 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:01,960 He actually was a coach. You know, he coached college 790 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,920 hockey and he volunteered to be player coach. 791 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,160 So he was actually coaching us and part of his coaching was 792 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,480 technical, but a lot of it was just like, hey, you know, you 793 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,040 know like that goal went in like let's give the goalie some 794 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:17,800 support. Let's show him some love. 795 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,880 And our default would be like, man, you let that goal in like 796 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,200 or just not saying anything 'cause that'd be more, you know, 797 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:30,640 appropriate. But but it was that, that the 798 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:35,160 difference really was leadership and and that coaching that made 799 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,480 the difference for us. I know, I know we're going to 800 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,920 look close to time and I want to be respectful of that. 801 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,280 But Simon, anything on on your side just because you're in, 802 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,640 you're in it, man, you're like in a turn around. 803 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,640 It's, it's awesome. I know it's early. 804 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,040 I don't want to jinx anything, but it's, it's awesome watching 805 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,480 the 76ers right now. Like what do you attribute it 806 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,920 to? So I it's early. 807 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,920 First of all, I would say I've been part of, I've been part of 808 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,040 over performing teams, I've been part of underperforming teams. 809 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,080 I've been, I've been the change in one year when there's not 810 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,480 been much change. I've been the constant in other 811 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,240 years. I've been in a few different 812 00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:17,400 environments. One thing I would say at the 813 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,080 start is every year is difference. 814 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,640 As much as as much as we like to think they're the same and 815 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,560 they're connected and they certainly there is some 816 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,800 consistency. Every year is different, whether 817 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,080 it's different players, different staff, different 818 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,880 culture, different philosophy, different. 819 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,240 Every year is is different. They are connected, they are 820 00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:38,160 different. I think one of the things we're 821 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,600 sort of that that we're talking about, there's a constant theme 822 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,000 in everything we've been, we've been discussing so far is, is 823 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,800 decision making. And at the end of all of this, 824 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,880 leaders are making a series of decisions almost constantly, 825 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,120 right. Whether that game plan for 826 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,880 tonight, race strategy for the 100 mile race, the batting line 827 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:04,400 up, the the deal that we're going to do to try and buy this 828 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,000 business, the next employee we're going to employ all that 829 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,680 sort of stuff. It's a series of decisions and 830 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,960 we're constantly making those with the best available 831 00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,400 information. So in my world, that is a 832 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,760 combination of objective, objective findings. 833 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,960 It's a combination of hopefully some emotional intelligence. 834 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,960 It's it's a combination of talking to human beings. 835 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,800 And we're trying to weight all of that appropriately and we're 836 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,440 trying to make the best decision. 837 00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:34,000 Now, I also think we need to remember that that they are 838 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,720 never or very, very rarely 100% decisions. 839 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:41,280 We have a level of confidence in every decision we make and we 840 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,800 want to get it as good as possible. 841 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,520 And we're not going to get everyone right. 842 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,000 And we but we, we like to think that that we would. 843 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,040 But if we're making, you know, an example with, with, you know, 844 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,080 baseball Hall, if you're, if you're hitting 303 out of every 845 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,280 10 pitches, you're a, you're a Hall of Fame baseball player, 846 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:00,800 you're missing seven of them, right? 847 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,160 And we have this idea that we're, we're making these 848 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,200 decisions. We can make the right decision 849 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,320 and not get the outcome we want, as in we might not win the game, 850 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,560 right? And so there's a lot of things 851 00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:13,640 that change. And I know that you cannot 852 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,200 separate that in the sports world from winning or losing. 853 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,320 But, but the point that sticks out to me with anything is we 854 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,960 can consistently try and make the best decisions based on the 855 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,080 information, but they're not always going to turn out how we 856 00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,720 hope that they will. And, and that that sometimes can 857 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:31,880 be the difference. We can make really, really good 858 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,720 decisions and we can be 80% confident and the 20% happens 859 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,480 and that might happen 10 times in a row. 860 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,640 That doesn't mean those decisions were wrong and they 861 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,600 shouldn't impact how we make them in the future, but that can 862 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,600 make a difference. And then we can go on as we can 863 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,280 go on a streak when we're making, you know, decisions that 864 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:50,240 we're not very confident in. They pay off for us. 865 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:52,080 And sometimes that's the difference. 866 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,760 So I think for me it's decision making and it's, it's context 867 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,400 and it's the threshold of where we're prepared to, to, to make 868 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,440 those decisions and, and see how they play out. 869 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,920 I absolutely love that. I love that you're bringing 870 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,400 decision making and, and I love that metaphor. 871 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,760 I mean, it's a reality for for many, you know, that that you 872 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,080 could be a Hall of Famer and miss, you know, 7 out of 10, 873 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,520 which is just, it's, it's an incredible statistic. 874 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,160 I mean, usually you think of batting average, you don't 875 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,240 really necessarily think about that this person actually missed 876 00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:29,200 more lot of failure. And, and to, you know, to that 877 00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:32,680 point Holly was making earlier about, you know, what 878 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:37,480 distinguishes like excellent from elite, This notion of like 879 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,040 passion, but not just passion for winning. 880 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:46,080 It's it's it ultimately, what's even more important is, is like 881 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:51,160 love of one's self, presumably. Like, I don't know, am I, am I 882 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,080 botching that, Holly? Is that No, no, no. 883 00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:56,840 That's right. It's, it's love, Love for 884 00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,600 yourself, that confidence truly, which is I think a performance 885 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,280 enhancer, not arrogance, but confidence. 886 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,480 And then, yeah, been a love for how you're spending your time, 887 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,680 your effort, your energy, your teammates. 888 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,280 And, and I'm sure that helps like if you, if you fail like 889 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,560 you're, you're willing to like, you know, absorb that, forget, 890 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:23,520 learn from that, forgive yourself. 891 00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,880 Right, the outcome might not happen, but if you're doing 892 00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:28,880 everything right, like what Simon was saying, then you can 893 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,520 enjoy the experience and the experience, right? 894 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,960 We can control much more than the outcome. 895 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:42,120 But if I'm in the have to win mindset right then I'm on a 896 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:44,200 crash course. It's. 897 00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,560 Risky, but if I'm in a in a, we will win. 898 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,160 It's going to be, you know, a non linear journey with some 899 00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:52,400 bumps and we're not going to win every game. 900 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:53,720 We're not going to hit every pitch. 901 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:59,440 Then enjoy the ride, right? Yeah, I mean and you can develop 902 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,960 a matrix of of self-assessment or like like we we define like 903 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,160 what is what is a good at bat or what is a productive at bat. 904 00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,600 It's not, it's not necessarily something that's helping your 905 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,720 batting average. It's identifying the right 906 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:16,080 pitches, you know, hit hitting in accordance with your 907 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,000 strengths, waiting for the pitcher to give you, you know, 908 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,480 like there's, there's various sub components. 909 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,880 So yeah, assessing yourself. If you're assessing yourself 910 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,520 only out of, with the outcome in mind, like only if you win, then 911 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,520 you're vulnerable to assessing yourself with your losses too, 912 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:33,160 right? And then your identity is like 913 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,640 doing this roller coaster in accordance with your 914 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,880 performance. Now, obviously the outcome 915 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,920 matters because like in my industry, if you, if you're a 916 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:42,440 really good hitter, a really good pitcher, you're going to 917 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,320 have, you know, you have more career on punctivity, you're 918 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,240 going to make more money. There's there's, there's real 919 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:50,160 tangible gains to outcomes. But there has to be this 920 00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,160 mediating factor of like, what is the process through which you 921 00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,720 will, you know, increase the chances of obtaining those 922 00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:58,040 outcomes? And then it gives you this 923 00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:02,000 healthy distance to keeping your, your identity separate 924 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,400 from the outcomes. And then like, to Holly's point, 925 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,960 you know, loving yourself or, you know, preserving your love 926 00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,480 for the game. I mean, I, I know some athletes 927 00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,080 who are really best in the world at what they do and they don't 928 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:17,520 happen to care for their sport that much. 929 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,480 Maybe it's like it's a, it's a curse a little bit, but that's 930 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,400 OK because you can have a really, I mean, there's, there's 931 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:28,520 people in the business world who are leading things are, you 932 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,120 know, very successful. And maybe that's not really 933 00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,200 their passion. Perhaps you're just very good at 934 00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,720 that thing. But can you have a 935 00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:38,120 professionalized relationship with, with your career? 936 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,760 And you very much can. And then you have space to 937 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,560 magnify the things in your life that you really do love. 938 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,960 Wow, this is this is way more complicated than sets and reps 939 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,040 It's amazing. All right, I know we're we're at 940 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,520 time. If we can, we'd love to just do 941 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,720 bonus lightning around a, you know, either a piece of advice 942 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:10,800 that you would impart for leaders right now in, you know, 943 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:18,520 where Q 4/20/25 with so all that context or, or a a key learn 944 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,680 from from this year. So you get to choose either a 945 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:26,360 key learn that that you picked up and that's guiding you and, 946 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,920 and and inspiring you this year or a piece of advice. 947 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:35,680 What would it be? You know, I can, I can start us 948 00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:42,120 off Key, key learn for me is, you know, there's, there's so 949 00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,720 many things that we think can't change. 950 00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:52,160 And we build these like sort of brittle constructs in our mind 951 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:57,320 of like what needs to be in order for, in, in order for us 952 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:02,920 to, you know, survive or, or, or even, you know, thrive. 953 00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:10,240 And, and, and to take that next level of, of pressure testing 954 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,280 the paradigm and to pushing ourselves and thinking outside 955 00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,280 of the box and, and being bold. That, that's been my mission 956 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:22,120 this year, being bold. And, you know, the world is very 957 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:26,520 dynamic and, and there's a lot of continuous change and, and we 958 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:32,680 need to meet that context as leaders and, and accordingly. 959 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,520 So that's my, that's my big, big learn from this year. 960 00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:40,600 Who's next? Under one minute. 961 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:42,360 All right. I'll give you 1 under one 962 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,720 minute, which I'm fairly passionate about this idea of 963 00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:48,000 recovery. We're very focused on recovery, 964 00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:49,680 right? And I think sometimes we think 965 00:56:49,680 --> 00:56:53,880 that it's just for the elite athletes and it's not and it's 966 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:56,720 not complicated and I think it helps you make better decisions. 967 00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:58,120 I think it helps you quality of life. 968 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,280 And I think it's really important for everybody no 969 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,480 matter what you do. And the only other thing I would 970 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:09,480 say is there's this big focus because of social media and and 971 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,320 Apple Watches and all the technology that we have to focus 972 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:15,440 on these one or two little percent gains, focusing on the 973 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,160 85%, which is going to be getting appropriate sleep, 974 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,400 eating reasonably well, exercising, hydrating. 975 00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:28,800 The difference that makes is is enormous and, and it's and I 976 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,960 think it's really important for everybody, not just people that 977 00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,600 are that are, you know, trying to perform physically, but 978 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,560 people that that have to make, you know, important decisions. 979 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,480 And there there's a lot of science that that that impacts 980 00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:41,640 it. And I think it's a really, 981 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:45,560 really important thing. Love it, Simon, love it. 982 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:50,720 Thank you, Holly. Get coached if you're looking 983 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:51,760 to. Get Coach. 984 00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,800 Performance edge in whatever domain that may be. 985 00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,800 Get a coach, and if your coach doesn't have a coach, get 986 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:04,560 another coach. Love it. 987 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,000 Simple. Great advice, Lindsay. 988 00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,000 Something I've been playing around with quite a bit in my 989 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:21,680 mind is how to use like altered states to access your next level 990 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,280 performance. Like, I mean, they're called 991 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,520 altered states because they're not like the usual states. 992 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,400 So 99% of your time is spent spending like, you know, normal 993 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:35,640 consciousness or slave, but of, of creating a practice or 994 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:37,160 cultivating something about altered states. 995 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:41,560 If, if you're doing something that you know, you, you want to 996 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:44,200 take it to the next level. So that could be something like 997 00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,280 mindfulness and meditation. We know that it kind of like 998 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,280 scrambles the default mode network in the brain like, just 999 00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:56,160 kind of like the the usual way of functioning dreaming is an 1000 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:58,880 altered state of consciousness. So like kind of planting the 1001 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,680 seed within yourself that if there is a do I have like a 1002 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,320 problem or a challenge or an opportunity that requires 1003 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,640 something more than what I'm currently like generating right 1004 00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:13,280 now. Deliberately create a space 1005 00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:15,280 where you can try to use an altered state. 1006 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:20,080 Wow, I love that. I mean, that this podcast is, is 1007 00:59:20,080 --> 00:59:21,560 putting me into an altered state. 1008 00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:28,000 I'm, I mean, I'm feeling like so jazzed and I, I, you know, I'm, 1009 00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:32,200 I'm, I'm moderating this, contributing to it, but also 1010 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,480 like simultaneously turning myself into a sponge in my, in 1011 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:41,000 my All Star jersey from 25 years ago, my moment of glory hour and 1012 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,760 20 minutes back in Saint Louis in high school. 1013 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,280 You guys, thank you so much. This has been enlightening and 1014 00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:53,600 also extremely practical. Some incredibly practical 1015 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:59,200 applied Nuggets of wisdom and I'm excited for all the leaders 1016 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,840 watching. To try out some of these 1017 01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:05,360 techniques and, and to experiment with some of the 1018 01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,080 mindsets and skills that we've talked about. 1019 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:11,240 So, so thank you so much. And that's a wrap.