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Well, hello, Jonathan Kirschner 
here. 

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I'm the founder and CEO of Air 
Consulting, and this is a 

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podcast about leadership. 
And I'm here with Joy Nissan and

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Ian Wilcox. 
And we can't wait to talk today 

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about a topic that is very dear 
to all of us, and that is, let's

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take a guess. 
What's the common denominator 

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between Ian Joy and Jonathan? 
A little bit of psychology, a 

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little bit of business 
psychology, but but even deeper 

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at the core, psychology. 
Psychology, right. 

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I've been talking a lot with 
with clients, with leaders and 

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executives about this difference
between where we are right now 

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and where we were when it comes 
to this topic of change. 

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And you know, I'd be very 
curious to get your perspective 

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on this given that you've been 
in this industry and field for 

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some time. 
But it feels like we've gone 

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from a place where change 
happened in an episodic way, 

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right? 
Where we're like, let's do a 

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change or something has changed 
in the external environment and 

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we have to adapt and then 
essentially find our footing and

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then we achieve a new normalcy. 
And it seems that like the 

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frequency of which those changes
were occurring and maybe the 

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magnitude have increased maybe 
over the past 20-30 years, maybe

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as a function of innovation, 
industry, globalization, all 

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these dynamics, but something 
seems to have occurred. 

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It's not been this discontinuous
moment. 

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There's certainly a continuum, 
but something does seem to be 

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qualitatively different between 
that phase of change and where 

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we are now, where it seems like 
change is just not just 

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constant, but fluid. 
And so given that context that 

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we're in, I want to really dig 
into how do we not just survive 

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and stay afloat, but how do we 
thrive as humans, as leaders in 

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this context? 
And so today we have Joy, of 

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course, my sidekick, Joy, who's 
our head of leadership solutions

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at Air Consulting and a clinical
and organizational psychologist,

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a biofeedback expert. 
And and then Ian, who has an 

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incredible career in management 
consulting, trained at Columbia 

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in the depths of psychology from
all the wonderful, you know, 

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science of psychology at 
Columbia, worked at the Hay 

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Group and does many things, 
including investing in private 

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equity. 
And we have the privilege of 

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having Ian on our Advisory Board
there consulting. 

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So it's just so wonderful to 
have you both here and given 

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that context, you know, what are
some of the first things that 

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come to mind for you? 
So maybe Ian, we'll, we'll just 

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start, start with you, since you
know, you, you you've been 

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around for, you know, a a time 
when change was really 

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happening, you know, was very 
intentional. 

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Yeah. 
You know, in listening to I 

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remember this going back a ways 
now we used to talk about 

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programs that were entitled 
managing change. 

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So that gives you a sense of 
perspective. 

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Now, I don't think it's about 
managing change, as you said, 

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Jonathan, it's, it's part of our
being right. 

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And I think about clients where 
there was a, a, this is back in 

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the days when there were binders
and there was hard copyright. 

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And we would at Hey Group and 
other places that I worked, we 

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would, we would talk about 
change as a, something that was 

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almost a, an event and we needed
to come in and train you or 

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prepare in some way prepare you 
for it. 

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And then status quo would 
arrive. 

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Well, just think, think about 
that. 

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Think about that from what that 
was to what it is now, right? 

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We we would come in and apply 
those good behavioral science 

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principles of mindset, mindset 
shift, the skills resistance, 

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all the various models that we 
know around change resistance to

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change, right? 
I can remember years and years 

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ago, there was Gary Bridges and 
there were the curves and joy. 

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You probably know what I'm 
getting out the talk about where

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we are and we talked about 
change curves and we talk about 

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kind of add in a model like a 
little Elizabeth Kubler Ross 

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model of grief in. 
And then we'd work through the 

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psychological and the kind of 
the cognitive steps. 

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And then we'd kind of put it in 
a box and we'd say, OK, done. 

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Now let's think about that for a
second. 

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Think about the fact that one of
my favorite words is 

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compartmentalization. 
We'd compartmentalize that and 

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we'd leave our clients with that
sense of it's OK now, right? 

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Like that was that that's my 
reflection is we'd kind of pat 

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them on the back and say, yeah, 
you might do another M&A or 

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whatnot. 
But you know, this world as we 

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know it, I mean some people call
it VUCA. 

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Whatever you whatever 
terminology or or acronym you 

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want to apply to it. 
We there was a period where I 

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think we thought that status 
quo, there was something about 

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returning to AI guess the, the 
word might be homeostatus to to 

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apply to you Joy and I I don't 
think that's clearly not true 

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anymore, right? 
What what? 

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What's your feelings? 
Yeah. 

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I mean, there's, there's so much
good meat in what you just 

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shared, Ian. 
And I think what's coming up for

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me is just this, the sense of 
control and stability is 

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something that humans have 
always craved. 

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And we yearn for that. 
And we don't feel good when we 

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feel like we're not in control. 
We don't know what's coming 

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next. 
We don't have a systematic way 

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of understanding our world, our 
environment, what's coming next.

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And, you know, I think you're 
both touching on this, this 

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really important notion that in 
the past, change was an event. 

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And we, we, we are wired to 
respond appropriately to 

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activation. 
That's not, that's not 

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inherently bad. 
We, we can do that. 

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We know what to do. 
But we need the recovery, we 

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need that rest. 
We can't just stay in this 

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constant state of activation for
prolonged periods of time. 

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So in this world we have now 
where it feels like change, 

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change, change, and we don't 
know what we're changing 

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towards. 
So it's change without a 

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destination. 
And I think that sort of 

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uncertainty and almost like 
dissonance that people are left 

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with is what a lot of leaders we
talk to are experiencing, of 

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just how can I even plan for the
future when the future feels 

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unknown And it feels like I make
a plan and three months down the

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road, the world is a completely 
different place and I have to 

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throw my plan out the window. 
So. 

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So yeah, I'd love to hear. 
The what resonates for me in 

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that is fatigue. 
Yep, fatigue. 

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Wait, it's exhausting. 
It's it's exactly Jonathan. 

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There's an exhaustion mentally 
and emotionally that I think 

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clients are going through 
leaders are clearly we we know 

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the statistics that are out 
there about the the 10 year 

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average, 10 year and ACEO or 
even AC sweep role these days, 

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right. 
And and that fatigue I, I 

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remember some a client saying to
me, when does this end? 

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Wow, depending on what it 
doesn't end. 

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It's more about the mindset and 
the conditioning to think about 

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well. 
Ian in the traditional paradigm,

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it would have an end. 
A change would have a beginning 

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at beginning an announcement. 
Exactly. 

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A communicating of why right. 
A managing of the resistance and

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a reinforcement phase. 
And so it's there's a beginning,

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there's a middle, there's an 
end. 

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And then a period of 
homeostasis. 

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We used to hand out to clients 
that Harvard Business Review 

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article by John Cotter, classic,
right? 

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Managing a change. 
And I, I go back to that now and

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then. 
I thought, this is this that 

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article, great article, but it 
exemplifies exactly that idea 

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that it was an event. 
And here's an article and here's

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here's how we communicate it 
beginning, midpoint and end 

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Cotter's article. 
And really to your point, 

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Jonathan underscored that 
mindset. 

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Something's changed though. 
We're living continuous that 

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continuously in the Cotter 
articles. 

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That's what the that's that's 
what our clients are telling us 

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right now. 
So there's fluid change. 

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And then Joy, you mentioned 
something that was really 

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intriguing to me is that it's 
changed, but without a direction

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per SE, right? 
So, so I think there's sort of 

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like 2 variables. 
It's, it's the fluidity in which

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we're changing. 
So there's not like a beginning,

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middle and end. 
And then there's just like a 

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degree of uncertainty when you 
don't know what you're changing 

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towards because it's happening 
so, so frequently. 

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And yet the brain is, it kind of
defies how we're wired in in 

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some ways, right? 
The brain as as we were chatting

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about earlier, is like kind of 
designed to achieve a locus of 

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control. 
Like we need to feel a sense of 

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control and predictability in 
our lives. 

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And that that allows us to, you 
know, kind of kind of stay above

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it and and to to self manage, 
feel safe. 

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Yeah. 
Feel safe. 

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Exactly. 
Feel safe and and and to thrive.

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So like, what do we do, given 
that the conditions for how 

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we're essentially designed are 
are are suboptimal, What are 

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some things we we need to be 
thinking about? 

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Let's start with just humans and
then we'll move to leadership. 

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But just as as humans, what do 
we need to be thinking and 

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doing? 
What kind of mindsets do we need

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to maybe shift towards? 
What kind of behaviors do we 

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need to be adopting? 
Because if we use these change 

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models or some of these older 
paradigms to try to live in the 

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now, I think we're going to be 
somewhat limited. 

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Yeah, and I would argue there's 
a false distinction between what

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it means to be a human and what 
it means to be a leader. 

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Yeah, that's a good point. 
I would agree. 

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I would agree with you, Joey, 
absolutely. 

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Yeah. 
One in the same. 

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Yeah, yeah, I think to 
especially nowadays to be a, to 

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be a good leader, you have to 
really know what, what your 

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humanity requires of you and 
what's needed, what's needed to 

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succeed. 
And if you're not attuned to 

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yourself and your personal needs
and you're not cultivating that 

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sense of resilience and 
attunement with your, your 

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mindset, your fatigue, like when
are you as a leader or as a 

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person pushing yourself past the
point of effectiveness to be 

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able to then harness what the 
organization needs. 

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If you don't have individual 
resilience, you're not going to 

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have organizational resilience. 
So I think like we have to go 

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back to our humanity and anchor 
to some of those core traits 

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that we all need for for 
survival in general to to then 

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be able to translate that to 
organizational survival. 

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Yeah, the words that come to my 
mind, equanimity, one of my 

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favorite words, calm, right. 
And what that invokes for me 

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here evokes rather is that the 
the both the biological sense, 

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like how are we listening to our
bodies? 

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So that's a humanity and and an 
attribute that I think good 

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leaders have is they know back 
to compartmentalization. 

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Good leaders know and understand
that this may this may be the 

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status quo and probably is. 
And therefore what is required 

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of me both as a human and as a 
leader to demonstrate that 

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sense, as you put it, of 
resilience. 

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And that resilience may well be 
how I show up, how I how I 

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compartmentalize. 
I remember my secretary giving 

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me a piece of feedback early, 
early on in my career. 

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And she said to me, I'm sitting 
in my office not far from here. 

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And I was literally kind of 
having that moment when I was 

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frustrated and pulling my hair 
out. 

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And she, she, and it's, it's 
really interesting that the 

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people who give you some of the 
most thoughtful feedback as 

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leaders are those that you 
wouldn't expect. 

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And Rose came into my office, it
was about 3:30 in the afternoon.

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I'll never forget. 
And she said, how do you think 

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it looks when people are walking
by your office and seeing you 

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literally pull at your hair? 
And I, I took that as probably 

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one of the greatest coaching 
moments when I was stepping into

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a, my first leadership role in 
a, in a large consultancy. 

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And it taught me something that 
I needed to hear about 

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compartmentalization and about 
the fact that what may be going 

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on for me, how does that 
translate out there? 

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Right, right. 
What does that look like? 

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And it said, I need to do some 
work, my own work in managing it

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body wise, right? 
Literally not pulling my hair, 

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you know, not looking like I'm 
pulling my arrow, but I there, 

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there was something in that that
that I pulled that I stepped 

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back and said biofeedback, 
right? 

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Which what was what is it that I
need to do so that I as a leader

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show up in a way that embodies 
that sense of equanimity, right?

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So that's a whole other skill 
set there. 

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It was not an intellectual skill
set that I was prepared for. 

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It was a different skill set 
that I needed to acquire to get 

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that team that I was leading and
and the task in front of me to 

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orchestrate that sense of this 
is the new, the new, the new way

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to operate. 
Right. 

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Yeah, that's so powerful too. 
And I think in biofeedback we 

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talk a lot about regulation and 
Co regulation. 

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So as a leader you are setting 
the tone in a lot of ways for 

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the people you lead, the 
environment at the office, the 

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people that you work with. 
If you're distressed, that makes

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the system distressed. 
So if you're not able to bounce 

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back and recover and be attuned 
with your needs and 

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physiologically calm yourself, 
that's going to translate to the

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people around you and lead to 
stress in the system. 

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So it all starts from the 
individual because that has that

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multiplier effect, which is why 
I think we're all drawn to this 

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work is because of that cascade 
effect, that working with a 

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leader and helping them become 
more attuned with what they need

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to succeed and what that does to
the organizational system 

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around. 
Them. 

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It sounds a lot like this 
concept of emotional contagion, 

250
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yes? 
Right, right that. 

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We learned in the social 
psychology. 

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Exactly but. 
You know, it's a really amazing 

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point. 
You may made earlier joy about 

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that, that in some ways, like 
the organization is simply just 

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a reflection of the state of the
individuals. 

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And so if everybody is like just
burnt out and stressed out, you 

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know, then the collective whole 
the organization itself is, even

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though it might have a pretty 
logo and great website, you 

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know, it, it, it, it's a burnt 
out right organization. 

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And that organization is 
probably at risk of of not 

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fulfilling its mission. 
And, and we know what that does 

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physiologically, to leave from a
place of stress or threat 

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response, you will be shut down 
cognitively and emotionally from

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your team. 
You're not going to be able to 

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access that creative critical 
thinking part of your brain as 

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easily. 
You're going to be thinking 

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short term instead of long term.
All of these things are 

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antithetical to what we need to 
lead in uncertainty and thrive 

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in the future. 
Well. 

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It certainly compromises, you 
know, the all the things that 

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happen in this. 
Prefrontal right. 

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Cortex but yeah and you were 
talking we were talking earlier 

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about cortisol and and just 
prolonged. 

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Impact. 
Yeah, doses of cortisol and what

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that can do to just your 
physical health, I mean it. 

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Right. 
I mean, being in we're basically

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talking about the fight flight 
response, aren't we, right. 

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And and I think it continuous 
exposure to that cortisol 

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sitting in the top of the 
kidneys and into the body. 

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We know hypertension, type 2 
diabetes and we're talking about

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metabolic syndrome, right. 
And then we're talking about 

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over a prolonged period of time 
that what do we know about that?

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That shows some degradation in 
our autoimmune systems and 

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autoimmune diseases are 
everything from all the way, 

285
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,800
unfortunately all the way to 
cancer. 

286
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,640
And I think I think we have to 
step back and and truly at this 

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00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:29,320
juncture that we're in listen to
our bodies as leaders and as 

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00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,360
humans far more than we we may 
have done. 

289
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,680
What do we put into our body. 
This gets back to how much 

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00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,560
coffee do I drink, right? 
It's, it's all of those things 

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00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,760
that are, I like the word that 
you said, Jonathan, that 

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00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,400
contagion effect, right? 
And leaders, I think have to 

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00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,760
understand in, in the language 
they're using, what their body 

294
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:56,240
language, their verbal language,
how they, how they show up, all 

295
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,560
of that has that impact on the 
kind of culture they're 

296
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,440
creating, right? 
And, and so what's different 

297
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,960
about leading in this 
environment, as I see it, is 

298
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,640
the, the task is far less 
intellectual, though it, it, 

299
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,800
there's important work to do 
around strategy and choices and 

300
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,119
whatnot. 
I could argue that it's going to

301
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,960
be interesting with the amount 
of, of work that AI can do for 

302
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,440
us, right? 
If you can think about where I'm

303
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,160
going and from AI can construct 
my competitive strategy for, for

304
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,600
us and we can play with 
engineering prompts. 

305
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,400
But what AI can't do is what 
we're talking about. 

306
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,320
We can't do that human piece. 
Yeah, right. 

307
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:34,480
Not yet at. 
Least not yet. 

308
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,680
At least exactly. 
Yeah, I like to say to the 

309
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,040
leaders I work with you, you 
want to be leading from a place 

310
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,960
of intention, not tension. 
And, and I think when you're 

311
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,800
operating from a place of stress
or going so quickly that you're 

312
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,400
not slowing down to speed up, as
Jonathan likes to say, you run 

313
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,400
the risk of just making 
decisions without thinking 

314
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,960
through the consequences or 
really thinking through all 

315
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,080
aspects of how you're showing up
as a leader. 

316
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,520
Well, this is a podcast about 
leadership. 

317
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,960
It is That's just that's I'm a 
leader, right? 

318
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:08,640
Let's let's take a leader, the 
average leader right now. 

319
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,680
Travelling, burning the candle 
on both ends, not much sleep and

320
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,160
Slack messages, E-mail. 
E-mail. 

321
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:29,000
WhatsApp SMS. Yeah, your your. 
Kid who's using your phone, his 

322
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,240
TikTok notifications are coming,
coming through and, and you've 

323
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:39,520
got a whole team and, and, and 
they look concerned and, and 

324
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,680
they're not getting the 
communication they need because 

325
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:46,680
you're fragmented and fried. 
And what, what do we recommend 

326
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,960
for this hypothetical leader? 
Like where's, where do we start?

327
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,520
How does this person get a grip 
'cause I think that I mean, we 

328
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,480
say that that's an accurate 
depiction of, say, your average 

329
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,240
leader right now. 
And the, the place that I start 

330
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,080
in any work I do with senior 
executives, I ask the question 

331
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,880
draw for me urgent and 
important. 

332
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,400
So the things that you talked 
about of those tools from 

333
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,720
WhatsApp to Zoom to whatnot, 
they're tools, but are they 

334
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,440
managing you or you managing 
them? 

335
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,920
Right, right. 
And So what I said to an 

336
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,080
executive and an executive said 
to me and gave a lot back to me 

337
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,440
recently. 
He said, you know, Ian, just I, 

338
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,360
what I've learned is to step 
back from all those, all those 

339
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,840
toys and distractions and just 
focus like laser sharp. 

340
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,840
Like he said, I don't use Slack 
anymore. 

341
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,840
I don't use, I, I don't use any 
of these things. 

342
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,680
I focus just on the things that 
are the most critical. 

343
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,520
And this is coming from an 
executive who is right now 

344
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:56,440
looking at trading fifty 6070% 
below in market cap, you know, 

345
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,600
trading below cash, right? 
And it's just really focused on 

346
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,720
the prize, the prize of, of what
the organization and its purpose

347
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:05,680
is. 
I'm not distracted by that. 

348
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:13,280
And but that skill set that I'm 
describing is one that is not I 

349
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,040
think is pervasive in in in it's
hard to really. 

350
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,720
Develop in others because we do,
we do get distracted. 

351
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,120
We do get just focused on things
that I think fundamentally take 

352
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,600
us away from the task. 
So I asked three things, what's 

353
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,160
urgent, what's important, and 
right now what is the task? 

354
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,320
What is the task? 
And you'd be surprised when 

355
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,080
people step back how they're 
able to see is, is this task 

356
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,120
really about responding to 
what's happened to Zoom? 

357
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,520
And I think, I think helping 
clients segment those things is 

358
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,120
quite informative. 
That's been my. 

359
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:53,320
Experience so like 
prioritization. 

360
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,600
It's a prioritization exercise, 
yes. 

361
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,800
And also kind of stepping back 
and saying, do you really 

362
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,320
believe you need to touch all 
those things, right? 

363
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,880
Sounds like you're really 
getting at the concept of like 

364
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,560
mindfulness to like being 
intentional about where you're 

365
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,720
spending your time. 
What's actually a priority. 

366
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,400
I think we've been almost 
conditioned to be hyper 

367
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,160
responsive. 
If somebody pings us or slacks 

368
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,640
us or emails us, we feel 
compelled to respond right away,

369
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,320
and that pulls us from that 
deeper, focused work. 

370
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,280
And if we don't have clear 
boundaries around? 

371
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,840
Focus time. 
It's easy to get pulled by all 

372
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,880
these other devices and 
mechanisms. 

373
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,720
And part of the equanimity that 
I'm seeing in in folks that are 

374
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,240
developing the skill set is 
they're OK with letting some 

375
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,480
things fall by the wayside. 
They're OK with the feedback 

376
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:46,640
that maybe from whomever you 
didn't respond in 24 hours and 

377
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,240
then they they're able to 
address why, but they're 

378
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,000
recognizing some things will 
fall through the cracks. 

379
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,920
And I am comfortable with the 
anger or frustration response 

380
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,760
that will accompany that. 
That's that's a mature response.

381
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,600
It's not it. 
Rather than getting angry about 

382
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,840
the fact that I need to respond,
there's that sense of let me 

383
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,640
just step back and be purposeful
and you don't like the word you 

384
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:15,800
used intentional around that. 
So I've got prioritization. 

385
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,040
We didn't call it something, but
I think we're all in agreement 

386
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,880
that we need to regulate, right?
There's something about our 

387
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:32,600
psychobiology that, you know, it
just can't be 80% cortisol, 20% 

388
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:39,400
like serotonin and other stuff. 
We need to bring balance and 

389
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:44,040
regulation to our biology. 
And then Joey mentioned 

390
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:49,360
mindfulness, which, you know, 
could also be thought of as as 

391
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:54,560
a, as a heightened awareness of 
of oneself so that you can make 

392
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,400
decisions like you just charity.
And like I can say, you know 

393
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,920
what, that is annoying, but I 
accept. 

394
00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,320
It right, right. 
And I'm at peace with it, right?

395
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,440
Exactly. 
Instead of instead of 

396
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,560
immediately reacting and 
treating this mouse the same way

397
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,360
that you would treat a lion in 
front of you, which is which can

398
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:16,280
happen. 
That distortion effect happens 

399
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,680
when you're living in your 
amygdala, at the center of our 

400
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,800
brain. 
That is all responsible for 

401
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,440
emotion activation. 
Fight. 

402
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,880
Flight. 
Yeah. 

403
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,480
And mindfulness, the way I 
describe it to clients is really

404
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,960
the commitment to being present.
So it's what do I need to focus 

405
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,560
on, back to your point, Ian, of 
what's the task at hand, What am

406
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,240
I trying to accomplish? 
What's urgent, what's important?

407
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,080
What am I being called to do? 
And how can I show up as the 

408
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,360
best version of myself as a 
leader in this moment and not 

409
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:48,120
get pulled into the side pings 
on a message or something else 

410
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:50,360
that's maybe calling to you that
isn't the task at hand. 

411
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,160
So it's how can you actually 
stay present? 

412
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,360
Because we have so many 
competing priorities and 

413
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,880
competing distractions that will
come our way if we're not 

414
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,360
focused right. 
Exactly. 

415
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,840
I love this. 
I mean, to me, a lot of this, if

416
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,520
not all of it falls under this 
bucket. 

417
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,960
The irony that we, I'm seeing us
do this in real time, like put 

418
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,800
things in buckets. 
Us humans like we love our. 

419
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,000
We need car. 
Stations. 

420
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,560
Right, we need categories. 
Otherwise, it's chaos. 

421
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,120
It's. 
How it works? 

422
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,440
Exactly. 
We need to have cognitive, I 

423
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,160
mean we need some way to reduce 
the cognitive load. 

424
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,880
I mean, a lot of what we've been
talking about and we, we've seen

425
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,600
the research on this, the 
cognitive load. 

426
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,600
It's the, the cognitive load. 
So, so I'm putting all that 

427
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,160
cognitive load in a bucket 
called self management, right, 

428
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,280
right, right. 
And we know about leadership 

429
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:42,840
that that that is a major part 
of leading because if if you 

430
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,120
don't have the energy reservoirs
in place for yourself, how are 

431
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:51,400
you possibly going to lead 
others, both by actually leading

432
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,880
others and being an example, 
which is part of leadership as 

433
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,560
we talked about initially. 
But there's two other buckets in

434
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,440
this, in this art and science of
leadership. 

435
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:08,880
The second being leading others 
and the third being leading the 

436
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,560
organization. 
And I'm curious. 

437
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,280
So we, we've talked about, you 
know, really being mindful and 

438
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,640
present. 
We've talked about physiological

439
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:26,800
regulation and how we can use 
the gift of our brain to 

440
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:32,720
prioritize as being essential 
areas for us to be focused on as

441
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,480
leaders right now when it comes 
to leading others. 

442
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,960
How do we lead others right now 
effectively? 

443
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:43,040
You know, when everybody is 
experiencing some of these 

444
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,200
vulnerabilities that we've 
described, I. 

445
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,880
Think a lot of it is naming 
naming what's going on for folks

446
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,600
like creating the language 
right? 

447
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:52,920
Not. 
Pretending things happening. 

448
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,720
Right. 
And creating the language for 

449
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,960
people to process and understand
what's happening. 

450
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,600
I think, I think a lot of times 
that rumination or anxiety 

451
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,600
comes, comes into play when we 
don't know how to articulate 

452
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,120
what's going on and it's just 
this feeling of heaviness that 

453
00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:08,040
we're sitting with. 
So. 

454
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,800
Yeah, I, I, I just want to add 
to that naming. 

455
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,800
Naming allows us not only to put
into category into it. 

456
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,400
Implied in that is is empathy, I
think, I think it, but by naming

457
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:27,560
it, it validates. 
And then I think effective 

458
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,160
leaders do more do something in 
addition to naming, which is the

459
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:37,000
way in which they name somehow 
touches what the psychological 

460
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,920
experience. 
Is it alienation? 

461
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,600
Is it overwhelmed? 
What is that? 

462
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,640
And by the virtue of the naming,
I'm not naming what I am 

463
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,280
experiencing as a leader, but 
I'm showing the otherness. 

464
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,960
And then in that naming, I 
understand the shared experience

465
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,080
of my team Slash direct direct 
reports. 

466
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,760
And that serves as a container 
using a right psychological 

467
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,000
concept. 
Go with me. 

468
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,040
It's a container, right, Right. 
You're laughing right 'cause 

469
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,160
it's there. 
It's, it is kind of container 

470
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:08,880
exactly. 
But you know where I'm going. 

471
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,680
Self Psychologist. 
Right, right. 

472
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,720
Politician, exactly. 
But it's it's a container that 

473
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,000
allows the space to be created. 
But I'm doing that and by 

474
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,240
naming. 
So, yeah, it is leader as there,

475
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,680
it is leader as therapist sort 
of, but that's an OK thing 

476
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,480
because then that touches what 
what you're doing for me in that

477
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,440
moment as a leader is that 
you've got my attention. 

478
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:39,680
I feel that I am heard heard in 
a in a in a very deep and 

479
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,600
profound way. 
So leader needs to be able to 

480
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,440
create the space, right? 
Or or or like the container, but

481
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:52,040
then has to be able to name 
things what you. 

482
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,840
What comes up for me is like 
communication, right? 

483
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,040
I mean, communication's always 
been important, is important, 

484
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,880
always will be important. 
There's nothing new under the 

485
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,280
sun. 
And yet, and yet, and we see 

486
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,080
this in our own data at Air, we 
see that, you know, when 

487
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,760
individuals are getting coached,
they create a development plan 

488
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,120
and we're able to see the 
aggregate data of those 

489
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,800
development plans. 
And communication, out of the 45

490
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,200
skills we track, is, is, is 
always trending in the top 

491
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:21,600
three. 
And right now it's, it's, I 

492
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760
think it's #1 or #2 right now. 
Yeah, here's the irony. 

493
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,280
You just mentioned these various
tools, Jonathan. 

494
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,200
They are supposedly 
communication tools. 

495
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,320
WhatsApp. 
Zoom Teams e-mail inundation 

496
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,840
tools. 
Exactly. 

497
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,680
Yeah. 
But then then I wonder what is 

498
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,880
when, when we get that feedback 
about communication, I think it 

499
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,240
comes back to what you said, 
Joy. 

500
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,480
It's the kind in nature of 
communication that makes the 

501
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,040
difference 'cause all this other
noise that's out there from 

502
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,960
Slack on down, I think what 
we're hearing in engagement 

503
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,400
surveys and other is like, stop 
it. 

504
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,560
It's. 
Just adding to. 

505
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,840
Cognitive overload You're. 
Exactly. 

506
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,200
You're adding to cognitive 
overload and it's not 

507
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,600
ironically, if you, if you do a,
have AI do a content analysis on

508
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,160
the value add of those channels.
And I would argue marginal, 

509
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,440
right? 
Because what, what is it that I 

510
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,520
really want in terms of 
communication? 

511
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,960
I want connected connectedness 
with you as my manager, right? 

512
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,120
I want and clarity, right? 
Exactly. 

513
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:30,080
Well, so I've got creating the 
space right, acknowledging, you 

514
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,440
know, when times are hard, 
rather than just trying to guys 

515
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,960
heads down, just chug forward, 
chug forward. 

516
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:43,080
Come on trudge through this and 
and communication, the the the 

517
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,640
empathic aspects of 
communication, the the 

518
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,240
connectivity that communication 
can create and the clarity that 

519
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,600
it can engender being really 
important areas, I would argue. 

520
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,720
We'd all argue that. 
These have always been 

521
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,160
important, but I think 
especially right now in a time 

522
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,040
where we're in fluid change, 
this is this is particularly. 

523
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,360
Important you add in the all of 
the evolution, the evolution in 

524
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,360
front of us of AI coupled with 
everything else that's going on,

525
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,080
right? 
We think about where we started,

526
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:18,040
which is something that people 
long for, which is what it was 

527
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,160
something something very certain
concrete. 

528
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,120
We as leaders need to 
acknowledge this is we're now on

529
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:30,480
a journey that of continuous 
evolution and change that even 

530
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,760
that word change, I don't know, 
maybe there's a different, 

531
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,520
there's a different word that we
need to come on. 

532
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,760
It's uncertainty, right? 
And we're, we're talking about 

533
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,360
ways that we engage, not even I 
would say communicate, but 

534
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,640
connect. 
I think, I think implied in what

535
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,520
we're talking about is a way of 
connecting because all those 

536
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,040
other communication tools are 
essentially sharing of 

537
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,520
information. 
Right, right. 

538
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,240
And it's very ironic that in 
this age of ultra hyper 

539
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,640
connectedness, we're not people.
There's a loneliness epidemic, 

540
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,040
people feel disconnected, 
There's a breakdown in 

541
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,040
community, a breakdown in 
societal structure, and people 

542
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,960
don't know where to turn and 
what to anchor to. 

543
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,280
And I think that's where it 
leads. 

544
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,960
Leadership really comes into 
play of how do we make people 

545
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,120
feel like they're part of 
something bigger than 

546
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,680
themselves, that they're part of
something that matters, that 

547
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,160
their life has purpose and is 
value driven. 

548
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,480
And there's less spaces to find 
that and it becomes more and 

549
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,280
more I guess on the leader to 
create. 

550
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,960
That sense of purpose, yeah. 
Let me ask yourself guys, how 

551
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,200
many quote UN quote friends do 
you have on Facebook? 

552
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,480
Too many, and then how many do 
you actually know or talk? 

553
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,320
To and are they friends? 
Yeah, are they are friends? 

554
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,840
I think, I think people you're 
connected to, right? 

555
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,760
And I think that speaks to what 
you've said in terms of what 

556
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,800
we've got all these tools, we've
got all this technology, we've 

557
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,480
got these, we've got 3-4 
thousand friends or people we 

558
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,880
connect to. 
Are we really connected to them?

559
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,800
Well, to your point, I think 
we're feeling, but people are 

560
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,240
coming into the workplace 
feeling more lonely than they've

561
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,960
been. 
We have to somehow basically 

562
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,600
entice them to come into the 
office 3-4 days a week and use 

563
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,160
food and whatever else. 
But I think this is true to get 

564
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,240
people to come into the office 
to experience a sense of 

565
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,640
community. 
I, I love this fostering 

566
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,560
community and, and connection 
and that being, you know, a, a, 

567
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,280
a leadership quality, if not 
responsibilities. 

568
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,600
I think that's, that's essential
right now. 

569
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,960
And I also think, you know, 
there's an element that we're 

570
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,120
talking about separating signal 
from noise, right? 

571
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,320
I think we, we conflate 
information with communication. 

572
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,840
Like communication is the 
essential signal information. 

573
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,320
There's aspects of it that's 
really important, but it can 

574
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,240
become easily conflated. 
And by the way, when I can 

575
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,520
produce, I, I did this the other
day. 

576
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:49,240
I, I created, I did a deep, a 
deep search query using one of 

577
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,360
the LLMS and I created like a 
research paper in, in like 4 

578
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,040
minutes, right? 
Take that's longer than using, 

579
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,920
you know, a regular search. 
This was a deep, deep, deep 

580
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,440
search. 
But now all of a sudden, like 

581
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:07,120
I've, I've got this 30 page 
document and I, it, it took me 4

582
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,800
minutes to create it. 
I, I got to eat dinner and do 

583
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,520
other things like now I'm 
sitting on this. 

584
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,600
And I think AI has this ability 
to just further proliferate the 

585
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,080
amount of information that we're
already sort of swimming in and 

586
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,920
inundated by. 
That proliferation again, I come

587
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,520
back to the theory of cognitive 
overload. 

588
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,640
That's, that's the, the 
interesting quandary we're in is

589
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,920
we've got all these tools and 
the cognitive overload like the 

590
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,760
particularly the, the, how do we
manage the desire to go in and 

591
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,960
just dive at it, right? 
You know, it's, it's actually 

592
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,160
not. 
Again, it's, it's the challenge 

593
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,120
of the urgent versus the 
important, right? 

594
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,720
Well, that third bucket is is 
leading the organization. 

595
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,640
So we have leading self and 
that's all that that self 

596
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,440
management aspects that we were 
talking about. 

597
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,280
Then we have leading others and 
we talked about communication, 

598
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,880
creating the space, creating 
community and connection when it

599
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,840
comes to leading others, right. 
When I, when I think about the 

600
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,199
skills under that bucket, it's, 
it's, you know, establishing a 

601
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:20,840
clear and compelling vision, a 
strategy to enact that vision, 

602
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,239
managing that strategy, 
executing on that strategy, 

603
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,639
building a culture that can 
support that strategy. 

604
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:35,239
Where are are organizations and 
leaders specifically struggling 

605
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,239
right now in that, in that 
domain? 

606
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:39,440
I. 
Think it's just so 

607
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,400
unpredictable. 
How are you? 

608
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,239
How are you to like? 
Leaders historically have been 

609
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,719
rewarded for their ability to 
almost see the future. 

610
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,280
To bring out their crystal ball,
right, and tell everybody and 

611
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,239
tell analysts. 
Here's what we see in Q4. 

612
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:56,239
And that's, that's impossible 
now. 

613
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,800
So how are you supposed to 
create a strategic vision when 

614
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,760
we don't know what AI disruption
is going to look like in six 

615
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,920
months? 
So I think it does come back to 

616
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,960
some of these like core skills 
of being curious, being 

617
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,160
resilient, being flexible, 
knowing how to adapt, and 

618
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,000
creating a vision that allows 
for variance that isn't too 

619
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,120
rigid and rooted in one clear 
path because that one clear path

620
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,080
isn't as clear as it 
historically has been. 

621
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,080
Well, it it, what's really 
interesting to me and what you 

622
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,720
just shared is when we think 
about the definition of 

623
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:34,320
leadership, which according to 
Air leadership is actualizing a 

624
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,960
clear and compelling vision 
through others, what happens 

625
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,120
when that vision is a little 
hazy? 

626
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,720
Right? 
I, I think about Google, like 

627
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:51,760
imagine you're Google right now 
and the last, you know, decade 

628
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,120
plus. 
You've made hand over fist money

629
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,640
while you sleep a money tree on 
search. 

630
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,360
And now all of a sudden every 
LLM can do a search. 

631
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:02,920
Can do it for. 
You right. 

632
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,320
So maybe even better, right So. 
So how does that affect vision? 

633
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,280
And I think there's something 
about adaptability and 

634
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:16,240
experimentation mindset that 
organizational leaders need to 

635
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,080
increasingly adopt as a function
of uncertainty and all the 

636
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,320
curveballs that that that can 
come at us. 

637
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:30,760
But the sort of below that is 
purpose. 

638
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,800
And purpose doesn't change like 
Google's purpose, you know, 

639
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,520
which is I don't know what to 
make information accessible. 

640
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:45,080
I don't know their purpose, but 
that is Evergreen, right? 

641
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:51,680
And so to double down, triple 
down on articulating that and 

642
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,840
reinforcing that and making sure
that people are grounded. 

643
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,920
In the, why in the? 
Why? 

644
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:06,480
You know that that transcends 
the what the strategy is in in 

645
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,720
this point in time? 
Because that can change very 

646
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:09,680
fast. 
Yes. 

647
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:16,120
And I think because the goal 
post keeps moving as as a 

648
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,640
function of technology, for 
example, you just gave a really 

649
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,120
good example of of Google. 
But now what is AI doing to 

650
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,960
disintermediate what we knew 
search to be the task for the 

651
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,080
leader or leaders in an 
organization is to be on top of 

652
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,520
that and articulating. 
And I know that Google, I know 

653
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,200
that AI or clod or perplexity is
coming down the Pike and having 

654
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:42,040
not an answer, but acknowledging
it to what it is and coming back

655
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,800
to purpose. 
And, and I think part of 

656
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:48,840
curating and taking care of the 
organization and it's and it's 

657
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,560
culture is not to ignore, but 
to, to create an environment of 

658
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,600
continuous improvement. 
And I, I use that intentionally 

659
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,720
around saying, you're right, 
we're going to have to be up on 

660
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:02,400
our game because Clod and 
Perplexity and Grok and Chachi 

661
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,160
PT are at our coattails and be 
and and creating an 

662
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,800
organizational system that is 
agile and adapting and able to 

663
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,120
work with that, right. 
And you as the leader, stepping 

664
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:15,160
in and saying, yeah, that's 
true. 

665
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,440
Yeah, it speaks to a level of 
humility that leadership needs 

666
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,920
to have as well, not assuming 
that what got you here won't. 

667
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,640
Get you there. 
And so and So what? 

668
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,400
What are the conditions we need 
to create in organizations to 

669
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,920
make sure that innovation is at 
the center of the work? 

670
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,840
You're grounded in the purpose, 
but you're not stagnating. 

671
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,920
You're not arrogant enough to 
believe that you're at the top 

672
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,400
of your game. 
You're an industry leader and 

673
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,760
you're just going to sit pretty 
for the rest of time like you 

674
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:43,920
have to be. 
You have to be constantly 

675
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,320
pushing and challenging and 
being attuned with with the 

676
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,920
environment and the changing 
realities. 

677
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,480
Totally, totally. 
Well, I know we're we're coming 

678
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:58,000
up on time with this segment and
this has been a fantastic 

679
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,600
conversation. 
We've covered leading self, 

680
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,160
leading others, leading the 
organization, all within this 

681
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,360
interesting, challenging context
that we find ourselves in. 

682
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,360
It was it was really wonderful 
to to be together. 

683
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,520
And thank you, Ian for for 
joining us. 

684
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,080
And this is a podcast about 
leadership. 

685
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,400
So I hope you all have gotten 
some really good Nuggets, if not

686
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:25,440
profound insights that can help 
inform and guide your own 

687
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,440
leadership. 
Thank you so much and we'll see 

688
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:28,680
you next time. 
Thank you. 

689
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:29,240
Thank you.