Welcome, everyone. I'm Jonathan Kirschner, the
Founder and CEO of Air Consulting.
And we are here today on a podcast about leadership.
As we all know, for the listeners of this podcast,
leadership is actualizing a clear and compelling vision
through others. So pretty easy, right?
Cakewalk. Not no, not easy and
particularly not easy right now do recommend checking out our
book, the Air leadership Framework, which talks about
that definition and expands on leadership skills and what we
need to do in order to develop the right skill set and mindset
for leadership. And that's really what this
podcast is all about. It's it's a conversation about
leadership, not just generically, but also
specifically anchored in the experiences of real leaders,
real leaders. And today we have an incredible
guest. We have the one and only Bob
Chavez, who is the former CEO of Hermes Americas.
I brought my Hermes bag. This bag is just, it's stunning.
I, I would pay money for this bag.
Just the bag itself, It's just absolutely stunning.
And and Bob now is a distinguished board member of
Macy's and is the executive in residence at Savannah College of
Art and Design SCAD and also runs his own luxury retail
consultancy. So it is absolutely a gift to
have you on the podcast today. And we also have my Consigliar
wingman, a coach and one of our senior CEO coaches, Jamie
Ramsden, who wrote this book, which many have seen.
Let's go. An incredible book that just
organizes the wisdom that Jamie has gleaned as Aceo himself and
also a coach to to many, many CE OS.
So excited to talk about this as well.
Now I want to, before we really like get into it, I want to just
share a story and why I'm so amped for this conversation.
For many years I have passed by the Airmez store and I've just
walked by and said like this, what is going on here?
How does a store, how does a brand sell a purse for $30,000?
How does a brand make something that people just keep coming
back for more and that they cherish and that is both like
practical, practical and usable, but also like an art piece.
How, how does that happen? How does how does a brand do
that? And so high stakes moment
celebrating our, our 20th anniversary, I'm like, I got to
go big. I'm going to get my wife
something really nice. And so I went and got, I went
into that store and I got an Aramez scarf.
And the experience was some kind of combination of going into a
museum, having like a personal shopper and just being in a
store. It was this, this incredible
combination. And it felt by the by the end of
the the bout hour of going through probably like 35 scarves
to find just the right one, it felt spiritual.
So this is the scarf we we chose.
And Bob, you may have like a, you know, an interpretation of
this, but it's it's quite beautiful and just gives you a
sense. We'll put this out on the table
and we can all be inspired by this, by this gorgeous, gorgeous
scarf that my wife, it definitely scored big points.
So all this is to say, Bob LED Hermes for over 2 decades as CEO
of the Americas and grew this brand into an extraordinary
organization. And we have him here on the call
and we have Jamie who worked closely with Bob to share about
leadership. And so I'd like to just like
kick us off Bob, with getting an understanding of you and your
journey. So you studied, if I'm you
studied at Princeton literature and the Romance languages, which
isn't necessarily the standard profile of, of ACEO.
So can you help us just trace a line from, you know your your
days at Princeton and what you studied to how did you become
this legend in retail as ACEO? Help us connect the dots.
Well, thank you, Jonathan, first of all for having me here.
It's a it's a real pleasure and an honor to be here with you.
But if I could go back a little further than that, let me start
by saying that I was born in San Antonio, TX and I was AI was a
poor kid. I grew up on what they call the
wrong side of the railroad tracks.
And I had a professor, a teacher who pushed me to go outside of
the state. And I said, like, where?
And he said, you should go to an Ivy League school.
And I did not know what an Ivy League school was.
I had to go look it up. And then I looked it up and I
thought, why would I go to an Ivy League school?
It's far away. I'd never left the state of
Texas. I was 18 years old.
I'd never even been outside of Texas.
So he pushed me and I applied. I got into Princeton and came
home one day. My mom handed me the letter.
My father passed away the year before and I thought I don't
know if I can do this. So I was excited but I came back
and I thought about and I thought I can't go.
So I said my mom no, I'm not going to go.
And she said no, no you have to go.
Your father would want you to do this.
This is your future and you should go.
So I bought a Greyhound bus ticket because couldn't afford
airfare and 48 hours later I was in Philadelphia and then got
myself to to Princeton. So I had to start my life
completely. I had to start all over again.
And the one thing I remember is that there wasn't one person I
could walk up to and say, oh, wow, it's really nice to see you
like that. Tell, tell me all about, you
know, your experience getting here.
Whatever, Nobody. I had to start making new
friends, meeting people. And I did little by little.
It wasn't easy. I was not prepared for an Ivy
League school. And this was the first time
you'd left Texas? First time I left Texas, yeah.
Greyhound bus Greyhound bus. It's silly.
Yeah, to Philadelphia. I saw this, the arch in Saint
Louis. I saw the Pittsburgh skyline at
dusk. I'd never seen these things
before. And I was like, wow, this is
this is amazing. San Antonio back then was a it
was a small, small little city. Yeah.
It wasn't what it is today. So I got to Princeton and it, it
was, it was beautiful, but I couldn't appreciate the beauty
because I was so nervous and I was a little scared.
And then I had to start studying, but I had to work
because I, I was on scholarship, but I also had to work because
I, you know, I couldn't afford everything that I was, you know,
paying there. And my first paper, I got AC and
I was devastated. And I thought, wow, that's a
slap in the face. And I thought, OK, no, this is,
this is going to be a lot of work, hard, hard work.
So I had to study and, and I did, and I, and I worked, I
worked in the kitchen at, at my, my, the, the Princeton Inn, it
was called, that was the name of my dorm.
And so I thought, all right, we're going to, we're just going
to make this work. And, and, and so I did and I was
a little, I was not a little, I was very intimidated by the
people that I was around because we would sit having dinner and
we'd be taught. They'd be talking about all
these things that they did. Like I also, what did you get
for graduation? All my parents.
I spent the whole summer in Europe.
Oh, I got a, one person said to me, Oh, I got an Audi.
And I asked her afterwards, I said, what's an Audi?
And she goes, it's an Audi, not an Audi.
She goes, you don't know what an Audi is.
No, I've never heard of it. She goes, it's a car.
I was like, oh, sorry, I didn't, I didn't know it was a car.
And I was praying that it didn't come around to me because I
thought if I have to say what I got for, for graduation, it's
going to be very embarrassing because I got maybe $300.00 for
my whole family. But I thought, no, you know
what? That's it.
It is what it is. And, and I got over that because
I thought to myself, I have something to contribute.
It may not be a lot, but I have something to contribute.
I'm here to contribute just as they're all contributing.
And once I put that into my head, I started to make it work.
And so I, I ended up majoring in romance language and literature
because I wanted to be a teacher.
And then I wanted to be a professor.
My dream was to become a third grade teacher.
And my parents said to me, if you become a third grade
teacher, that will be a, you'll be a huge success because when
you come from a poor family, being, becoming a third grade
teacher is, is it's an accomplishment.
And that was my, my goal. That was my dream.
So then I got to, to Princeton. I thought, well, maybe I could
be a professor, maybe I could teach at a university and I was
going to go on to Graduate School, but I was so burned out
after four years. I, I was exhausted, you know,
mentally exhausted. So I thought, I have to, I have
to do something for a year or two and then I'll go back to, to
grad school. So I fell in love with New York
when I, when I got there and I thought, you know what, let me
interview with different companies.
So I was interviewing with a lot of companies when they came to
campus, banks, insurance, very boring.
You know, for me personally, it was very boring because I was
going into New York and going into the offices and I thought,
God, these people don't look very excited about what they're
doing. And then one day the, the
retailer started coming and I got a call back from
Bloomingdale's to come into the city for an interview.
So I did and I walked into that store and I thought, wow, the
energy, it's crazy in here. And, and I thought, this is it.
This is what I'm going to do. So I got a job as a executive
trainee is what it was called. And they, they were paying me
$9500 a year to live in New York way back then.
It was I, you know, I was rent poor.
It was a struggle, but I thought, OK, fine.
And I did it. And I just, that's how I, that's
how I started and I stayed with it and one year turned into two
years. But the third year I thought,
you know, maybe I'm not going to go back to grad school as I
started to really like it. So I stayed with it and 47 years
later I retired as a retailer. Oh my God, that's an incredible
story, by the way. It it it's amazing that we're in
we're in Philadelphia right now, which is where that that
Greyhound. Yes, yes, you off not too far.
You're probably 30th St. station or somewhere close special place
for you. I, I it particularly resonates
with me that you had this teacher.
It sounds like this teacher gave you a, a really important push
or challenge to, to go outside of your comfort zone.
I also had that same experience in high school, like this
amazing art teacher who her name was Missus Cram and Missus Cram
would, would, would come over as we're painting.
It's, it's, it's gorgeous what you're doing.
And that is just so special. And yet do you feel like you're
pushing yourself to the limit and, and somehow that
combination of support and validation with that challenge,
was it it just it I I was able to feel good and yet also
wanting to strive to go even further.
It was it was really cool. Anything you you have a a
teacher or. AI was going to say, I I
actually trained to be a teacher really before I was ACEO.
And then they told me like how much of my time would be spent
administering and, you know, not actually teaching.
And I was like, oh, and how much is the pay?
And so, but I think there's something in what you were
saying about there's, there's a couple of themes that I'm
hearing that are relevant. I think that Resonate 1 is about
like having been pushed. And I remember Richard Boyat is
talking about like the people who've pushed us or encouraged
us or saw something in US. And also the reverse of that.
And I think this is really relevant with Bob because how
how he would challenge people in a way that didn't seem
confrontational or contradictory or diminishing.
And that to me is the teachers craft and it's also the CE OS
craft is seeing potential and unlocking potential in others.
Well, and also creating these conditions of safety where you
feel compelled to push further outside of your in in this book,
which obviously I love you talk about invisible fences and
getting outside of your comfort zone.
And I think one of the art, one of the most like difficult but
also rewarding aspects of leadership when done well, is
when you're able to set those conditions where somebody is
willing to get to that other side of fear.
It's very hard to do. By the way, I was chuckling
actually, because Bob, Bob even did it to me, even though I
wasn't part of the team. One of the sessions that we had,
you know, he was like, I think we can go further.
I think we can push harder. I think you know without
describing the detail because. Well, without a feeling.
But it's like but without a feeling like oh man, I didn't do
good enough for. Like he, I think he's, you know,
he's saying the conditions are right, let's go, go that next
step and go further in pushing and challenging people while we
were in the room together. And I think that's an
exceptional skill. And you know, I don't think
anybody does it as well as Bob does.
But to me, it's that thematic about sort of that educate, the
educational drive or the being able to see potential where
other people may not understand motivation where other people
may not. That's something that is really
it's not in many of the books that you read when they talk
about leadership, we talk topic. Typically we're going to say,
OK, who didn't perform or what didn't happen or what do we, you
know, what's missing from this scenario instead of
understanding or taking that second step beyond to say, well,
how do we unlock that? Like there must have been an
obstacle. People don't show up to work to
do lousy work. Most of the time they they come
because they want to do do good work.
And so being able to take that pause and think about how do I
challenge them in a way as constructive and how do I remove
some of the obstacles that they may not see right?
What's the invisible obstacles that they may not see, but I may
be able to see that are holding them back.
And so you know, I say Bob does it as well as anybody I've ever
worked with. He even did it to me.
That's amazing. Wasn't on the team that's.
Because you were supposed to do it too.
But he that's, that's incredible.
And, and by the way, like, that's the beautiful job thing
about our, our job as executive coaches is, is how much we get
to learn from our clients, right?
Bob, I'm so, so you, you, you got off the bus, you did
Princeton, you decided to take a leap and, and took the job at,
at, at Bloomingdale's, which now, I don't know, sounds like
40 years later or so. Now you're on the, on the, on
the board of, of Macy's, which is also an amazing full circle.
Help me understand, like at what point, you know, maybe it wasn't
a singular point, but like, when did you realize that like you're
not just going to be a, a doer or even an executive doer, but
that you have this innate capacity to lead and, and you
know, at what point did the emergence of that identity come
through for you? I would say it, it probably
again, everything is, is in in retrospect, because at the time
I, I was so nervous, I was scared, but I thought, OK, I'm
going to make this work. And, and a funny story when I, I
made that decision that I have something to contribute here.
In one of the conversations, I was talking to Sir, about how my
parents used to turn the radio on on Saturdays and, and they
would dance like in, in the small little dining room we had.
And then my mother would grab me and she would dance with me.
So I've always loved to dance. And it comes from that memory.
SO11 day we were talking about different things and the, the
topic of dancing came up and none of none of these Princeton
people dance, none of my my fellow students.
And I was like, you don't dance. Like, what do you mean you don't
dance? And they're like, well, you
know, we don't really have the opportunity or anything.
And they said, what kind of dancing do you do?
I said, well, all kinds of dancing.
I said, but I've also learned because of my parents, I
learned, you know, some ballroom dancing.
Like what? Like ballroom dancing.
I said, yeah. And and they said, well, would
you maybe be willing to like teach us?
And I said, Oh my God, like, yeah, sure, why not?
So I started a class. I started a ballroom dancing
class in the in the Princeton in the dormitory and we'd clear out
the dining room and the first week it was maybe 6 students.
The next week it was 15 students.
The next week it was like 20 students.
I was like, well, no, no, that's it, no more.
We can't do anymore. And they were all, I was
teaching them all how to dance and it was amazing.
So that I think about that now because I'm thinking like, how
did, where did that come from? How did I get that idea?
But it, it was just that like something inside of me said, OK,
no, you're, you're going to contribute something and you're
going to make it work. So then I became known on campus
like, oh, this is the guy who teaches ballroom dancing.
You know, this is this is Bob Chavez.
He teaches ballroom dancing. It wasn't like Bob Chavez, the
poor kid from San Antonio anymore.
It was like, you know, the, the, the ballroom dancer and that led
to other things over time, I just kept doing more and more
and more and, and another story that Christmas I went into the
travel agency on Nassau St. because I thought I couldn't
afford to go home for Christmas and I wanted to go home for
Christmas. So I walked into the travel
agency and I said, so how many tickets would I have to sell to
get a free ticket? And she looked at me.
She goes, what are you talking about?
I said, well, if I sell X number of tickets and generate enough
revenue, how many do I have to sell for me for you to give me a
free ticket to get to San Antonio?
She goes, you're serious? I said yes.
So she does a little calculation.
She goes, OK, so you have to sell 20.
You have to sell 20 tickets. And I thought, Oh my God, 20
tickets. I said OK.
And she was the kind of like, this is never going to happen,
but fine. So I went out and I sold 26
tickets because I knew there were a lot of people from Texas
there. So I and I was, I was out at
hustling hustle 26. I got myself a free ticket to go
home. And my mother was like shocked.
She's I thought you said you were coming home.
I said, well, I made my way. I made my way home.
God I love that story. And that's how it started.
And, and, and you know, Jonathan, after that, I just
felt like, OK, I can, I can do this.
I can put a challenge in front of me.
I can do that. I can find a way to figure it
out. I can find a way to make it make
it happen. That is that's absolutely
amazing. I love that story.
Oh my goodness, and I love that like you made dance go viral.
But then I also heard in that that that you said at 20 word
word were too much, right, And that actually makes me think
about Hermes, right? It makes me think about creating
incredible amounts of demand, but not but knowing when to say
when and not constraining supply per SE, but but but knowing how
to balance quantity and quality in such a way that you create
this sort of magical point of, of of of where where the
consumer just wants something so bad, right?
And they can maybe get it right. So let's just just, I'd love to
understands your perspective on this fascinating company.
Like I have a story. Like I, I speak to, to CEOs and
executives all day for, and we've done this for 16 years.
I, I had asked a, an insurance, the president of a, of a, of a,
of the biggest division of an insurance organization.
Like, like what, you know, what do you aspire towards and what,
what you know, what intrigues you in the world leadership and,
and, and organizational, you know, success.
And, and he said, Hermes, I said, what Hermes like you're in
insurance, that's a luxury retail.
He's like Hermes, like that's, I want to figure out how they did
that. So maybe you could help us like
understand what's the secret sauce and, and, and that that
could create such a, you know, I described this, this buying
experience as as spiritual, right?
When you go into most stores, you know, it's not a spiritual
experience per SE. Like you get what you need and
then you're out. What help us understand how
Hermes got to be the way it is? Well, that's a, that's a heavy
question, but I, I, I mean, I'll probably jump around to a lot of
places, but I would say it starts with the, with the
family. Really.
It's a very humble family. You never read about the family.
You, you don't see them on social media, you don't see them
in the society pages. You don't hear about, you know,
private jet, private yacht, you don't see any of that.
They're just a very humble and a beautiful family who care.
They care a lot about the the people that work at Hermes.
So it starts there and then it's what I've learned over the many
years and from the beginning that it's an uncompromising
commitment. And then I never forgot that
word. Uncompromising commitment to
quality, to craftsmanship and to and to making beautiful product
that will last a long, long time.
And one of the family members many years ago said, we Hermes
makes things that can be repaired.
And I never forgot that. I never forgot that.
I thought, wow, we make things that could be repaired.
And that's how, that's how the family thinks.
That's how the business has been built on that.
Not like, you know, well, it's going to wear out.
It's going to be, it's not going to be in style next season or
next year. It's really, and it's where I
came, I came up with, I mean, I just described it as sort of
like, you know, timelessness. There's a timeless or an
enduring style to the things that that Hermes makes.
And that's why these these things could get passed down
generation to generation because they will be enduring in their
style. And another, another great
thing, John Louis de Ma, he was the 5th generation head of the
company and he's the one who who hired me.
He said to me one time, he said, you know, Bob, because we, we
always ask ourselves the question.
He goes, we make something. He said, I always ask everybody,
is this going to be, is this going to be relevant 25 years
from now? Is it going to be usable 25
years from now? And I remember thinking like 25
years of retail or no, who? No, that's like impossible.
And so every time I looked at prop, they came 25 years from
now. And do you want to know?
I have, I have things that I bought when I started 25 years
ago and I still wear them. And I thought, I think of John
Louis de Moc and I thought he knew that that's that was how
the family thought. So it is that uncompromising
commitment to quality and and craftsmanship that has really
made the company enduring. There's a tremendous amount of
patience, patience in terms of like, you don't have to rush and
grow the business, you know, so quickly.
Yeah, you have to grow the business.
But it's not about rushing. It's not about opening up like
tons of distribution, you know, going for the next thing,
following the shiny object is just that uncompromising
commitment to all these things. And it, it sounds easy, you
know, but you have to be committed to doing that, really
committed to doing that. That's, that's unbelievable.
I I, I love this, this notion of an uncompromising, you know,
attitude towards quality and craftsmanship, but there's also
this piece around like, like timelessness as almost like a
design principle. So that when we set out to to
make something, you know, if will this be timeless?
Does does this have a 10 year shop life, 15 years, or is it
actually timeless? And, and if it's timeless, then
we proceed. But if, if not, then it doesn't
meet the criteria to, to proceed.
Perhaps. Yes, exactly.
That's, that's, that's incredible.
OK, so so that that definitely helps me understand more about
the the magic. If we were to think about what
it's like to lead within that context.
Can you help that you know what, what what is it take to lead
within that context? I mean, I'm sure, you know,
people are wired for that. They want growth and they want
that immediate gratification of, of rapid growth and, and
expansion. If somebody were to say, I, I, I
want more of that, you know, it's like absolutely.
And take even more like, how do you, you know, this is like the,
the, the nature of, of, of humans, right?
Like we're not wired to be patient.
No, we're not. So, so how do you lead
successfully in that in that context?
Maybe you could share a little bit about like what's the
leadership playbook and, and, and also like what, what are
some of the challenges? Yeah, as as a leader.
Well, if I could just share a a story with you.
When I when I got the job, I was so convinced I wasn't going to
get this job because I thought, why is there mez going to?
Hire me, the CEO. The CEO, Yeah.
And you went to her Mez. I thought I went from I I
started at Bloomingdale's 10 years, Macy's six years, and
then Etienne Eigner for eight years.
Moderate price, you know, footwear accessory company, I
love to say our shoes were 4999 and the decimal was in the
middle. And so I didn't really have
luxury experience and I couldn't understand why, you know, I
thought, well, no, they're not going to hire me.
The, the, the recruiter said we'll go, you have to go this
interview. So I wanted the I thought I'll
meet these people. Then they asked me to go to
Paris. I met Jean Louis de Ma and I
thought, I'm not going to not meet this man.
So I did still thinking never going to happen.
So then I get, I get a, we had a story and his, he told me the
story that his father said to him, you have to know that, that
we are first and foremost retailers.
And he said, you're going to lead the company someday as the
family head. And he said, so you need to
learn the retail business. And he said there's there's only
one city for you to go to to learn that business and that's
New York. And he said there's only one
place in New York for you to learn it the best.
And he's like, that's Bloomingdale's.
And he says to me, I had a great mentor when I was at
Bloomingdale's. And he goes, I said, oh, who was
it? And he goes, his name was Mike
Blumenthal. I said, wait, you worked for
Mike Blumenthal? And he goes, you know Mike
Blumenthal. I said, I worked for Mike
Blumenthal. And you know what he says to me?
He goes, how old are you? So I flew home.
I got home Friday night and Saturday morning the phone rings
and guess who it is? It's Mike Blumenthal.
And I thought, Oh my God, I said so.
So he called you and he goes, yes, he did.
And he said, and he only asked me one question.
And I said he said I didn't. He didn't want to know about
your management style. He didn't want to know what you
were like to work with. He didn't know how do you deal
with other people? He said just one question.
I said, well, can you share it? He said yes.
He said. Can I trust him?
That's absolutely. That is unbelievable.
And so then I, the my future boss flies over the next Tuesday
and offers me the the job. And I, I couldn't believe it.
I just could not believe it. And it was a no brainer, of
course. Wait, so he.
Flew because we're not talking about, you know, flying from
Chicago to New York. He he flew from.
Paris. It was from Paris to New York,
NY to perfectly hand me the letter, and I'd never forgot
that. And I thought, wow, that says a
lot to me about this company. I the word elegance always,
always comes to mind. What it's one of the things I
think about Hermes, but it's not only the elegance of the
product, it's the elegance of the of the people that work
there. And that just I thought, do you
know what? Anybody who does that that I
want to work for, I want to work for those people because that's
I want to be like that. That's absolutely incredible.
OK, That is that is an incredible story.
So, so that then becomes the beginning of.
You think the CEO? Yes.
That is, that's tremendous. Well.
Jamie, you, you've had the opportunity to work with Bob
and, and, and his team and, and you've also written this amazing
book chapters that resonate with all of us.
I'm curious like it does 1 chapter in particular stand out
to you when you when you reflect back on the work itself well.
If I can be greedy, there's actually 2 that I think of when
I, when I think of you can squeeze onto Bob and, and
Hernez. The first one was about this
leader of storyteller because that is something that, you
know, we keep coming back to. And you can hear lots of people
talk about this idea about storytelling, but we actually
structured one of our sessions with the, with the wider team.
We had 26 people, I think in the in in Jersey City for a day and
a half. And we structured the
organizational, the the the team session around storytelling.
So tell telling the individual story, telling our story about
us as a team, telling our story about the organization and then
creating the story about what we're going to go and do.
And so you know that that whole chapter about storytelling was
really informed by the time that I spent with Bob and his team
Hermes, but it is intrinsic to leadership.
And, and Bob, this is so well, which is you're modelling the
behaviours, you're communicating with your team, right?
You're unlocking the power and the potential in the team.
You are sense making, You're helping them to understand what
the context means. And I'd really love to hear Bob
talk about this a little bit more about sense making.
How do you, you know, inform the team about what's going on?
How do you prevent them from making you know, instinctive
decisions or or you know market driven decisions?
How do you stay grounded, particularly in an organization
that's thinking about 25 year cycles instead of 25 minute or
25? Days when you have like.
Fierce. Competition all all around,
there's sharks all around. How do you sort of focus on the
long term and, and having these sort of uncompromising, you
know, adherence to things like like quality when there's so
many shortcuts or even just like short term thinking that could
help solve something immediate? And so part of, you know, when I
went inside the organization, I could see there's a natural
capability that Bob has better than anybody else I work with.
But his team also had this ability to be able to tell
stories because we're, you know, we're connecting people to their
own story through through this product in a way that's going to
be lasting and enduring. That brings elegance and
finesse. It's so aspirational.
And that brings us to sort of the last part about
storytelling, which is the future that we're going to go
and inhabit. And so I saw that really
clearly. And so that's a that's a really
good chapter. Secondly, and I said this to Bob
when the book Oh. Wait, hold on the the
storytelling and sense making two separate things.
That that separate, Yeah, sense making is part of the
storytelling. So in story, there's the stories
we tell about ourselves. Then there's the stories we tell
about our team or our organization or the group of
people that we have galvanized together to make a better
future. But then there's the stories
about the context. And that's the piece.
I would love to hear Bob to a little bit as about sense making
because as a leader, you are helping people to understand.
Certainly this is my experience. You know, people come into your
office and say, hey, something's happened and we need to react or
something's happened, what you're going to do about it or
something's happened and they leave a pause and then you might
feel obliged to do something. And so sense making is
understanding your own self, your own frame of reference, the
team, the capabilities you have, but also the strategic
discipline to be able to say, no, we don't have to do that or
we're not going to do that because that's not who we are.
And that was really, you know, I've got to imagine that such a
powerful force in the heart of of aggressive retail where
you're saying, no, no, hang on a minute.
We are 25 years thinking we're creating something that's of
beauty and of value that people are going to have the experience
versus just a transaction. And then finally, we have the,
you know, sort of future shaping or the community building the
stories we tell about where we're going.
And so as natural leaders, we do that.
And I'm just intrigued. I'd love to hear Bob talk a
little bit about how did you resist the pressure to react in
the short term to, to ride in the hotbed of the, you know, one
of the most aggressive retail markets in the world.
If not the how did you resist that pressure and how did you
reinforce that point with your team about no, that's not who we
are, we don't need to react. We know who we are and we're
good. Well, I, I would start with
saying that you have to unlearn a lot of things that I had to
unlearn a lot of things. And when I first started, well,
let me just add one, one more thing.
I finally went to Jean Louis after I got hired and I said, I
said, I can I just ask you a question?
I said, why, why did you hire me?
Because I don't really have any luxury experience.
Simple answer. He goes, because you're a
retailer. And I thought, OK, so then when
I started asking things like, what can we do this?
Can we try this? Everything was no.
And I thought, this is very frustrating.
Everything was no, no, no. And so I thought, OK, then
someone said to me, you're asking for too many things.
This was a a French colleague. And they said instead of going
and asking for five things, only ask for two things.
And I thought, well, that's the most stupid thing I've ever
heard of life. What difference is it going to
make? It's going to be no.
So I thought, all right, fine, I'm going to try it.
So I went ask for two things. Don't you know, I got my first
yes. And I thought, God, how did they
know that? So that made me think like, OK,
so I have to understand the culture better.
I have to, I have to listen a lot more.
And then I went back to the trust thing.
I thought, oh, now I get it. That's the trust thing.
They want. I'm going to have to be trusted
before I'm going to get more leeway.
So I got my first yes, we, we, you know, we moved forward with
it. It was, it was a good thing.
It worked out. Then I got another yes and then
another yes. And then over the years, I, I
became, you know, I, I had a lot of guesses and they really did
trust me and they let me, they let me make a lot of decisions.
Of course, what you know, what their, their collaboration.
But I was really starting to drive the, you know, the
direction, the business, the company, you know, in parallel
with everything that Hermes was, was doing.
But initially I thought to myself, I didn't even understand
how this, this company works. It's like everything they do is
wrong. It's like, you know?
Who? Who leaves?
Who takes? The ready to wear off the floor
at the end of the season and holds it for another year before
they put it, you know, to an employee sale or or you know,
even a a once a year public sale.
I thought that's crazy. You put it on sale at the end of
the season so then you can make. Inventory and make.
And I think it doesn't make sense.
And then afterwards I'm thinking, shame on me because it
works and it really works. And I thought, OK, so unlearn
because it doesn't have to be done that way.
There's another way to, to do it.
And so once I got that, I thought, OK, now I just have to,
I have to listen more. I have to understand more and I
have to, I was, I'm a patient person to begin with, but I
really had to learn patients. But I learned from from them.
I learned from the family. I learned from the people at
Hermes and it was a, it was a, it was a great thing.
You know, all these stories about like, is it going to be
relevant 25 years from now? Uncompromising commitment, you
know, to quality and craftsmanship.
And we talk about uncompromising commitment to quality.
It's not just the quality of the product, it's the commitment to
the quality of the people. It's the commitment, the quality
of the experience. It's all of these things.
And, and this just sort of enveloped me.
There's no other way to, to describe it.
And then that's when I, that's when I started, I started, I
thought, OK, this, this works. This works for me.
I like this, this is great. And we're going to, we're going
to go with that. And, and again, going back to
that kid in, in San Antonio and Princeton.
But, but you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to try to
even make it better than that. And that's what I did.
And that's what we got onto this whole culture thing, which Jamie
knows a lot about. Well, I, that's exactly what I'm
thinking is like how, how do you so fine, you got it right, It
clicked for you, but you've got an organization of thousands of
people, right? And you know, people aren't, you
can't just like dip them into something called culture and
pull them out and everybody's now rowing together, right?
Unfortunately, it's. Doesn't work.
That would. Be awesome if it did, you know
Edgar Shine famous, you know, culture guru and and professor
would say the culture is sort of the values and behaviors.
It's like the collective values and and and the manifestation of
those, those values in behavior that in the sort of amalgamation
or aggregate, you know, represents like the culture for
better, for worse, right. Obviously, usually it's like
kind of a little bit of a mixed bag.
Peter Drucker would say that, you know, culture, the strategy
is important, like really important, but culture eats
strategy for breakfast. That's how important culture is.
So, you know, as a leader, you know, it's something we talk
about in, in their leadership framework, this notion of
culture building, which is a, a, a, one of our really important
dimensions, one of 12 dimensions of leadership.
It's much easier said than done. How did you build a a a
cohesive, thriving culture? At Airmes and what's your
perspective on culture? Well, first of all, so it's
probably one of my favorite quotes in the whole world.
The culture, the strategy for for breakfast because the the
family believed and then subsequent I believed.
But, but, but even even more so that if if everything is if
everything is right, then the bottom line is going to happen.
The sales are going to happen. The bottom line is going to
happen. What happens in so many
businesses is that everybody looks at the bottom line first
and then tries to, to back into like, OK, how are we going to
get there? You know, to do this through
that. But if you really, if you're, if
you're just doing everything else right, you know, from, from
here, from your heart, then it's, it's going to happen
naturally. That person who's showing you 23
scars and telling you these stories and wanting to make sure
that you pick the exact right scar for your, for your wife or
your 20th anniversary. That's you can't you can't
replicate that, you know, and and you're going to come back
because I think he like I'll come back.
I this was a great experience and I'll probably.
Pick up some Cologne on the way. And that's what that's what
people do. So I thought that this is this
is really important. And I made it a mission, a
personal mission that we were going to, we're going to change
the culture because we had what I encountered when I first
started, there were a lot of complaints coming from some of
the stores and, and the one store in particular, I don't
want to call them out now because it, there's a great
store, but someone said to me, who do your people think they
are? I, I walk into the store and
they're all standing there like this, hands folded, like, oh
God, she's not going to buy anything.
And I thought that who's doing that?
So I went to the store one day like unannounced and I walked in
the front door. Sure enough, there were three
people standing there like this. And I thought, wow, this is
really happening because I thought, this is no, no, this is
going to change. So we started to make the
changes little by little. So we created a, a vision
statement. We created what we call the
seven standards of service. And you heard me say earlier
that that that when I sold those tickets is make it happen.
You don't make that dance class happen.
Make that free ticket happen. And that became one of our 7th
standards of service. Make it happen, make it happen,
make it happen. Yes, whatever you're doing, just
make it happen like. Will it into existence kind of
thing? Yeah, or just find a way to make
it happen. Just.
Make it happen. Yeah, exactly like we got to get
home for Christmas. And I, I've, I've gotten
exactly, exactly, you know, it's somehow some way just make it
happen. If you have to sell 20 tickets,
if I'm on 19, then I'm going to be on the street, you know?
But I could see somebody being like, like finding out to be
like daunting and, and, and, and almost like, like a scary thing.
How do you make that exciting like an inspiring?
It comes with, it becomes with people.
Yeah, people, you have the right.
People want to have no they, they.
Meaning if they're the right people or or, you have to
create. The you have to, you have to
create the you have to create the the idea that that they can
do it. You have to believe in people
and you have to some people are going to be on different levels.
But when you find the person says, I can't, I can't, I can't
say, let's just why don't you just try, try, try, take, take a
baby step and try and that they take the baby step and then
they're like, wow, you know, then push him to the next step,
push him to the next step. You can't push all the people
like that because they're, they're not all going to go.
But you sort of assess and you figure out, OK, this one, this
one can go a lot further. But it, it goes back to, you
know, that goes back to like that leadership leading with
emotion, which is what I what I did.
And, and the number one thing was that if you, if you care for
people, if you respect them, if you, if you recognize them and
you reward them, they're going to, they're going to give you so
much more back than you could ever imagine.
And once I saw that, that's what could happen, I thought, no,
this, this is what it's going to be like.
This is what we're going to do. We are and I started referring
to us as a family, that this is our family and you're a part of
this. This family and culture is a
24/7. Job You don't just set it and
forget, you know, come up with the seven imperatives.
Yeah. And then it's a piece of paper.
You hand it out, everybody hands it out there.
By the way, there's the poster of those seven things there.
Yeah, exactly. I got to go now.
And then you for you forget about it.
It's like, no, it's 20%. That's part of the role, right
of the leader is to reinforce that, and your daily
conversations is to remind people of what it is you've set
your organizational direction and just remind.
It's tricky because, you know, to come up with those seven
things and to make it beautiful and to, to, to translate that
vision into storytelling is like, it requires so much effort
that like, as a leader, I see this with a lot of, you know,
people that I, that I coach, I've seen it in myself.
Like it, you just, you're like, I did it job done.
Like I, I, I conveyed the cultural expectations and the
imperatives and and now everybody's got what they need
but tired of saying. It.
Well, I'm curious, like what were some of the tactics And I
know like Jamie, you've, you've talked, you know, about your
work with, with Bob and about, you know, some, some of the
tactics. But he just said something about
leading with emotion. And I'm going to, I'm going to
paraphrase that into leading with love because, you know, and
that's something you don't normally hear in these kind of
conversations, but that really is Bob, you know, is an
exceptional, exceptional leader. And this was so unique.
I don't, I haven't seen it since or before.
Is the ability to just use that, you know, we talk, we talk about
trust or we may talk about respect.
And those, those are good proxy words in the workplace.
But I never saw a leader speak so much about love, loving the
work, loving the product, loving their clients, loving their
employees and using the word love in a way that I, I haven't
seen anywhere else. And so, and I said this to you
when I, when I wrote the book, there's a chapter, the last
chapter talks about what great leaders do and they do, they
lead with love. If you want to use the word
trust and you feel more comfortable with that, that's
fine. But it is possible to actually
use that kind of terminology to describe people as a family and
mean it to push people because you love them and you want them
to be their best. You want them to see in
themselves the thing that you can see in them from the outside
because that's initial, you know, that's intensically a lot
easier, but also to create this environment where people are
prepared to take care of each other because they care for each
other. And so, you know, I was able to
see it first hand. I was deeply appreciative and I
was also, I'm so interested like about the part of the, the, the
methodology. I would call it this were the
weekend reflections. And so once a week on a, on a
Friday, I think it was that Bob would send and it would either
be an image or it'd be an article or a thought or just
something that would inspire people and typically signed off
around, you know, I love you or like, you know, you know, I love
what you're doing or I love this organization.
How much of those weekend reflections or how did you
leverage the what, what was the purpose behind that in
connecting the culture? What was the value of the
weekend reflections? It was, it was to give people a
different perspective. It wasn't about business.
It wasn't about like, OK, the weekend's coming up.
We have a big Saturday to do. You know, the week we we've
struggled for the week that we have a lot to make up on.
I thought, no, no, they need, they need to think about other
things. They need to think about
something you know, philosophical or hear the words
of another, not their. Leaders and how much we sold
didn't sell in this category and.
Not at all. And it was really about, it was
really about, you know, like David Brooks is one of my
favorite writes for The New York Times.
I used a lot of his, you know, his opinions that I shared with
people. And they were about, they were
about leadership. They were about family.
They were about caring, but they're all types of things and,
and I would send them out every weekend and sometimes it was
just a simple note to say, you know what, take some time,
relax, chill out, spend time with family, spend time with
your friends and, and just enjoy life this weekend because that's
important. It's important for you to do.
And people loved it because it gave them, it took them away for
a minute and then they came back even stronger and more and more
energized and, and I believe I strongly believed in
communication. It sounds so cliche.
It sounds so. People roll their eyes.
Oh, yeah, everybody communicates.
No, people don't really communicate.
And I really communicated a lot through the weekend reflections
with the with the leaders. I would send every year at the
end of the year in December, I handwrote a letter, Oh my God,
that would recap the year. And I'd say just, you know, want
you to know that we, we've had a great year.
It's been good. If it wasn't a great year, I
said our year was OK. You know, we could have done
better, but it was OK. We, we made it through.
We're all here and, and blah, blah, blah, some of the
highlights of the year. And, and then I would just close
by saying I just want to thank you for everything that you've
done. You know, none of this would be
possible if it weren't for every, every last one of you.
You all contribute. And I said, just want to wish
you a great holiday season. Enjoy the time with your family
and your friends. And I would sign it with love.
You know, Bob, and you know, when I retired, I had several
people come up to you and said, I have all 24 letters that you
wrote me. I was like, no way.
And they said, yeah. And they're like here, look,
they're right here, but always handwritten.
And as time went on, when technology, you know, everything
was taxed, everything. I thought, no, I'm not going to,
I'm not going to type it. I'm going to hand.
And I still would hand write it and send it out.
Every employee in the company, every employee got them.
So we, we, we send a packet of 200 to 1 store, 50 to another
store, 10 to another. Everybody got the the letter.
That's I don't even know what to say other than them that's
aspiring to do that. That's what brings people
together. I mean, that connection, you
know, communication creates connection.
And I, I, I discovered that early on.
I'm thinking this pretty powerful.
So I just kept doing it. And then when COVID hit, I
thought I started, I started writing, I started emailing
people just to say, just here's an update, you know, here's a
here's what's, here's what's going on.
Don't worry, it's going to be OK.
And then I gave them updates little by little by little.
And I had no idea how strong that was until I started getting
emails back from individuals who said to me, I can't tell you how
much your, your note meant to me.
They said, because, you know, I'm not married, I live alone.
And I've had some really dark moments, Bob.
And they said when I read that, when I read that note, it gave
me hope. I thought, God, this is you
don't even know what you're doing sometimes.
And it just makes you want to do it more and more like keep
connecting people, keep keep bringing them together.
And so I just kept, I kept doing it more and more and more.
We all know that that that these incredible values and principles
that, you know, inform the success of of Airmez, but
there's also this thing called leadership that just propped it
up and and bolstered it. And it's just amazing to hear.
Absolutely. I think that there was a
critical ingredient to this, this magic.
When I say magic, by the way, it's like you've got this, this
luxury brand Airmez that that zigs when this zags.
If you look at AI don't know what 10 year 15 year 20 or you
know stock chart of it is a publicly traded organization.
You know what when when economy is down, it's still up.
When when Asia customer, you know, recedes, it's still
figures, figures out how to you know it it it seems to buck the
trend in some ways defy gravity. I am.
I am curious though, because you're now, you know, so so so
you've no longer the CEO you were chairman for, for. 22
years. Two years.
And, and now have this, you know, incredible position as,
as, as a member of the board at, at one of the largest retailers
in the world, Macy's, which, which owns Bloomingdale's.
So really cool full circle, like so different.
And yet maybe there's this sort of common denominator, right?
I go back to what your, your, your boss said, why he chose
you. You're a retailer, right?
So, so there's a lot of, you know, air Air has the, the great
privilege of working with a lot of retail organizations and
retail CE OS and leaders. And there's a lot of, you know,
retailers who, who, who watch this podcast, help us understand
how to thrive right now in retail.
When you've got like the, the, the amount of change and
pressure is just extraordinary from e-commerce and the, you
know, implications to brick and mortar in the mall to, you know,
COVID. And, and, and some of the, not
only that, that volatility, but even some of the overhang that,
that may have arguably like shaped, you know, in an enduring
way that, that the paradigm of, of, of the buyer's experience,
you know, and, and, and with all that pressure, by the way,
especially if you're publicly traded, it's very tempting.
If not, it may sometimes feel like absolutely necessary to
lead with the number rather than the value or the vision, right?
Which to me is like the beginning of the end or just a,
you know, sometimes you might make the number, but like, did
it feel great and was it energizing?
You know, and I'm, I'm, I'm very conscious that that your
approach to leadership was not that right.
It was, it was like the number will follow if we get all the
behaviors right. But we don't lead per SE with,
with the, you know, if we don't put this number up and then say,
all right, let's go get that. We put the behaviors up and the
vision up and then the number somehow follow.
Help us understand the, the landscape broadly speaking and
and then you know, kind of what advice would you give to like a,
a retail CEO right now? Well, I mean, the advice I would
give and, and part of the answer to your question, it's really
it's about focus. It's really focusing.
And what happens today, I think is that people just keep looking
at everything that's going on, like what, what are they doing?
What are they doing? What's this is a trend?
What about this? And people just keep doing that
more and more and more. And I read, I read a quote one
time, another one I never forgot, and it said distraction
is the enemy of excellence. Distraction is the enemy of
excellence. And if you think about that,
that's part of what's wrong with retail today is that a lot of
people get distracted. And there's so much distraction,
it's unbelievable. Look what?
Look what they did. We have to do that.
We have to do that, but we're going to do it better.
Yeah. So, so your, your, your, your
path is here. You go over here and then maybe
it's not exactly the right thing.
So you have to have a strategy. You have to be committed to the
strategy. You have to be uncompromising.
There's the word again to your strategy.
And it was another thing that that I learned from the Irma's
family. They always said just stay
focused. They said you could look, you
could look over there, you can peek, but don't, don't get
distracted by it. Don't start getting obsessed by
what the competition is doing. Stay focused on what on what
we're doing and stay focused on what we do best and continue to
do it best. And that, that's where then I
read that quote and I thought, well, yeah, there it is again.
It, it, it all, it all matches up.
So that's the thing. If, if you, if you stay very
focused, if you focus on all these things and I go back to
focusing also on the people. People are what make it make the
difference. You know, you walk into a store
today, sometimes there's no people there because nobody
wants to work there. It's a, you know, and every
company has a reputation, whether they know it or not.
And, and these people share, they'll tell about that's a
terrible place. You don't want to go work there.
I know maybe it's a great job. You don't want to work there.
They're they're really terrible. The same time they said, hey,
you know, Jonathan, I'm working over here and it's a great place
to work. You should, you should come
interview for this job. So like people start to attract
like people and that that just reinforces the culture.
It makes it stronger and stronger.
And it's a, it's a powerful formula And it's not, it's not
tangible. And sometimes people have a hard
time with the intangible things, but it's the intangible things
that make the difference today. Meaning that focus is not
tangible. Focus is not tangible.
No, no, somebody could say here's the here's the strategy.
But but but a TikTok video is yeah.
Right. Exactly.
And the sweat coming down your forehead is and, and, and, and
all of a sudden you find yourself, you know, looking out.
And there's a great quote. There's a book, the hard thing
about hard thing. But this is the second time I've
invoked the hard thing about hard things on this podcast.
Ben, Ben Horowitz from Andreessen Horowitz, great,
very, very famous venture capital, a very successful
venture capitalist. And in one of the chapters of
that book, he talks about leadership and, you know, kind
of likens it to to racing, which which I can't relate to,
unfortunately. I actually work with the CEO who
who at the age of like, you know, in his mid 70s, is it like
basically a NASCAR racer, which is it's like really cool, but
apparently right. You race cars, you race cars.
No, I don't. You've race cars.
Well, I was in the, I was in the industry.
For a while you were in the industry, right, right when you
when you were in the hot seat. Well, apparently you know that
like the, the, the greatest risk is when you look to the side,
right? And you're, when you're looking
around and I guess you have to, like you mentioned, like a
little bit like you got to be aware of your environment and
some of the, the competitive threats.
But like you, you know, cross that line and and look too long,
you're you're straight into a wall.
Right. Follow your eyes.
Right, So, so focus is absolutely paramount.
I, I want to just, you know, you're, you're doing a lot of
things right now, right? You, you've, you've got this
incredible board position at Macy's.
You are the executive in residence at, you know,
America's best or one of the best art schools in America,
SCAD and you're, you're advising and, and consulting to, to
retail leaders and, and organizations.
How are, you know, tell us about this, this chapter in your your
career. And I'm also kind of just
selfishly interested in like, you know, tell us a little bit
more about the, the consulting work you do in the, in the
retail. Space.
Well, I have to say I'm, I'm really loving it.
I had everybody told me, you know, what it was going to be
like to be retired, especially because I, I've been, you know,
I'm a type A personality. I've been, I've been driven for
47 years of my career. And as I'm thinking, I'm
listening to all these people think, I'm getting a little
nervous. And I thought, you know what?
Just just, you know, accept it, you know, and, and, and go with
it and, and let it, let it leave where it's going to lead.
Like everything else in my life. I had, I, there was no game plan
in my life. I just went with what?
You know what? Was in front of me and I
thought, well that seems like to be the right decision you know
go work for her mez they offered you the job go work for her mez
so I've continued with that that same feeling and I'm I'm
enjoying it immensely. I, I still love challenges that
the people that I'm working with now, I love listening to their,
you know, their challenges with, you know, what they're worried
about using the same principles that I've, I've used for many,
many years. You know, we, we talked about
management, we talked about culture, we talked about
strategy. We talked about, you know, the
uncompromising commitment, you know, define who you are and
then stay, stay with that. You'll stay focused on that.
And I'm a little bit surprised at how people just continue to,
to get unfocused. They, they, they started looking
over here and I was like, no, no, that is not who you are.
Stop looking at that. That's not who you are and, and
I think I've helped some people with that because it it does
help them stay very focused. This is what you do best and and
stay on this, you know, for a while.
Today's world move so quickly. Everybody just wants to move
faster and faster and faster. Slow down, slow down a little
bit. It's going to, it's going to
help you well, because. We have to adapt and and evolve
and grow and and and try new things and, and that's part of
the joy of life. But but it it, it, you do it,
you build upon a base that's firm and uncompromising in terms
of like your core identity and what you stand for.
And I think what happens what what can happen is that that
piece also starts to just get put in the washing machine, you
know, So that's, that's really. There's a parallel as well.
You know, we're talking about how you stay.
You understand who you are and stay disciplined around the
things that you say no to. And there is an individual
version of that. But we can all play out in our
lives. And there is an organizational
version of that, which is knowing who your, what your
organization is and does and who they serve.
And that then allows you a lot more clarity and focus and
discipline around ignoring the things that have nothing to do
with where you, you shouldn't be.
And so, you know, we, we individually follow that same
pathway and we have a, a shiny example of how that can happen
organizationally through the, through the value of people.
Through the value of people. Well, we're we're getting to
that to that point on the podcast where we're doing our
leadership lightning around. So just kind of like let's
percolate. There's been I, I, I mean, this
has been so rich. The amount of insights,
insights. Interestingly, you know, you,
you, you can make the error of thinking that that just resides
in your, in your head. But many of the things we talked
about today went into my heart and I, I just I'll be re
listening to this podcast along with our viewers.
A a parting piece of advice or, or something that really
resonated from this conversation.
I'll, I'll, I'll kick us off, you know, I just, I'll save the
best for last. And I, I, it's for me.
There's, there's this word uncompromising, which has me
really compelled it, it to me. It's it is connected to focus
and but knowing, you know, we have to adapt.
It is the tricky part about leadership and, and, and being
human, frankly, which is like we have to know what to change and
what not to change. You know, where do we adapt?
Where do we preserve and and and stay steadfast and but you know,
kind of like deciphering what is that thing or couple of things
that we're not going to be like uncompromising on and then to
really bring it to make it happen, which is so inspiring
and energizing for me. So that's that's my parting
reflection. I would say, you know, I think
we're back to this idea that distraction is out there and you
know, leadership is about people.
So inside our organization, understanding, knowing,
respecting and even loving the people that we work with, it is
possible. And actually it will create
beautiful, magical, one of our favorite words, magical
unintended consequences. And so don't be afraid of it as
leaders, lean into it where you can.
You, I just watched you, Jonathan, when you said that,
that some of the discussion went into your heart today.
And when you said that you smiled.
And one thing that I've learned is when I used, when I started
using the word love in front of the organization, you can see
the smiles people just when they hear the word they, they smile.
And I thought. It's a powerful, powerful word.
So just to my thing is like I talk about that uncompromising
commitment. I think that to have an
uncompromising commitment to loving your people is, you know,
you said, what's the secret sauce?
That's the secret sauce. And most people are afraid to go
there. They're afraid to talk about it
and I, I always tell them it's not a romantic love, it's
caring, it's caring, it's nurturing, It's, it's bringing
somebody into your office and saying, you know, you, you did
something really bad, but I, I love you so much that I don't
ever want you to do that again. Don't make that mistake yet.
And to that person, I've seen people just completely turn
around thinking like what you cared enough about me to tell me
that. And now they're like on a, on a
track to, you know, to become an even better executive and a
better leader. So the, the feedback itself
framed in the overarching, I'm giving you this feedback because
I, because I love you and because I love you exactly.
So well, I, I will say, you know, we, we didn't thank God,
we didn't talk about AI because like, it's just like everywhere
you go and it's like we just have like an hour without
talking about AI. But, and so not to spoil that,
but, but to end even on a, on a optimistic though, like that's
the one thing like AI is going to get really, really powerful.
It's already extremely powerful. And you know, whether you're in
the AGI camp or not, or wherever you're sit with this, like this
thing is, is growing like a hockey stick and it's, it's
very, very powerful and it's going to shape the world retail
leadership. That's the one thing I cannot do
or will ever be able to do. It will not be able to care and
it will not be able to love. And that is the humanity that
and that is our opportunity to seize.
And who better to learn from than Bob Chavez?
Thank you so much for being here on on the show.
And and Jamie, it's my wing man, my conseglier coach.
Thank you, guys. Thank you, Bob.