1 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:19,250 Welcome, everyone. I'm Jonathan Kirschner, the 2 00:00:19,250 --> 00:00:21,530 Founder and CEO of Air Consulting. 3 00:00:21,530 --> 00:00:25,330 And we are here today on a podcast about leadership. 4 00:00:26,650 --> 00:00:30,010 As we all know, for the listeners of this podcast, 5 00:00:30,010 --> 00:00:34,570 leadership is actualizing a clear and compelling vision 6 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,200 through others. So pretty easy, right? 7 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,040 Cakewalk. Not no, not easy and 8 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:47,160 particularly not easy right now do recommend checking out our 9 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:49,640 book, the Air leadership Framework, which talks about 10 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,400 that definition and expands on leadership skills and what we 11 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,640 need to do in order to develop the right skill set and mindset 12 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,120 for leadership. And that's really what this 13 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,920 podcast is all about. It's it's a conversation about 14 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,800 leadership, not just generically, but also 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,880 specifically anchored in the experiences of real leaders, 16 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,840 real leaders. And today we have an incredible 17 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,720 guest. We have the one and only Bob 18 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:27,640 Chavez, who is the former CEO of Hermes Americas. 19 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,880 I brought my Hermes bag. This bag is just, it's stunning. 20 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,920 I, I would pay money for this bag. 21 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,960 Just the bag itself, It's just absolutely stunning. 22 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,800 And and Bob now is a distinguished board member of 23 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:52,560 Macy's and is the executive in residence at Savannah College of 24 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Art and Design SCAD and also runs his own luxury retail 25 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,600 consultancy. So it is absolutely a gift to 26 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:09,199 have you on the podcast today. And we also have my Consigliar 27 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:19,160 wingman, a coach and one of our senior CEO coaches, Jamie 28 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:25,320 Ramsden, who wrote this book, which many have seen. 29 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,960 Let's go. An incredible book that just 30 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:37,760 organizes the wisdom that Jamie has gleaned as Aceo himself and 31 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,360 also a coach to to many, many CE OS. 32 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,360 So excited to talk about this as well. 33 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,840 Now I want to, before we really like get into it, I want to just 34 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,440 share a story and why I'm so amped for this conversation. 35 00:02:53,280 --> 00:03:00,440 For many years I have passed by the Airmez store and I've just 36 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,400 walked by and said like this, what is going on here? 37 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:10,320 How does a store, how does a brand sell a purse for $30,000? 38 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:18,880 How does a brand make something that people just keep coming 39 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,120 back for more and that they cherish and that is both like 40 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:27,200 practical, practical and usable, but also like an art piece. 41 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,360 How, how does that happen? How does how does a brand do 42 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,920 that? And so high stakes moment 43 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,640 celebrating our, our 20th anniversary, I'm like, I got to 44 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,360 go big. I'm going to get my wife 45 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,120 something really nice. And so I went and got, I went 46 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,040 into that store and I got an Aramez scarf. 47 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:53,520 And the experience was some kind of combination of going into a 48 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:59,280 museum, having like a personal shopper and just being in a 49 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,680 store. It was this, this incredible 50 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,720 combination. And it felt by the by the end of 51 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:10,880 the the bout hour of going through probably like 35 scarves 52 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,680 to find just the right one, it felt spiritual. 53 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,880 So this is the scarf we we chose. 54 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,800 And Bob, you may have like a, you know, an interpretation of 55 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:29,440 this, but it's it's quite beautiful and just gives you a 56 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,320 sense. We'll put this out on the table 57 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,880 and we can all be inspired by this, by this gorgeous, gorgeous 58 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,800 scarf that my wife, it definitely scored big points. 59 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:54,120 So all this is to say, Bob LED Hermes for over 2 decades as CEO 60 00:04:54,120 --> 00:05:01,880 of the Americas and grew this brand into an extraordinary 61 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,840 organization. And we have him here on the call 62 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,800 and we have Jamie who worked closely with Bob to share about 63 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,320 leadership. And so I'd like to just like 64 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:22,200 kick us off Bob, with getting an understanding of you and your 65 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,000 journey. So you studied, if I'm you 66 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,760 studied at Princeton literature and the Romance languages, which 67 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:36,280 isn't necessarily the standard profile of, of ACEO. 68 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,480 So can you help us just trace a line from, you know your your 69 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,320 days at Princeton and what you studied to how did you become 70 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:51,120 this legend in retail as ACEO? Help us connect the dots. 71 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:53,800 Well, thank you, Jonathan, first of all for having me here. 72 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,720 It's a it's a real pleasure and an honor to be here with you. 73 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,600 But if I could go back a little further than that, let me start 74 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,560 by saying that I was born in San Antonio, TX and I was AI was a 75 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,120 poor kid. I grew up on what they call the 76 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:07,560 wrong side of the railroad tracks. 77 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,600 And I had a professor, a teacher who pushed me to go outside of 78 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,480 the state. And I said, like, where? 79 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,320 And he said, you should go to an Ivy League school. 80 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:18,560 And I did not know what an Ivy League school was. 81 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,080 I had to go look it up. And then I looked it up and I 82 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,640 thought, why would I go to an Ivy League school? 83 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,400 It's far away. I'd never left the state of 84 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:26,240 Texas. I was 18 years old. 85 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,040 I'd never even been outside of Texas. 86 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:34,280 So he pushed me and I applied. I got into Princeton and came 87 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:36,240 home one day. My mom handed me the letter. 88 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,360 My father passed away the year before and I thought I don't 89 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,280 know if I can do this. So I was excited but I came back 90 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:44,080 and I thought about and I thought I can't go. 91 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:45,840 So I said my mom no, I'm not going to go. 92 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:47,560 And she said no, no you have to go. 93 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,120 Your father would want you to do this. 94 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,600 This is your future and you should go. 95 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,400 So I bought a Greyhound bus ticket because couldn't afford 96 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,560 airfare and 48 hours later I was in Philadelphia and then got 97 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,600 myself to to Princeton. So I had to start my life 98 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,080 completely. I had to start all over again. 99 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,640 And the one thing I remember is that there wasn't one person I 100 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,760 could walk up to and say, oh, wow, it's really nice to see you 101 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,840 like that. Tell, tell me all about, you 102 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:15,520 know, your experience getting here. 103 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,320 Whatever, Nobody. I had to start making new 104 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,200 friends, meeting people. And I did little by little. 105 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,360 It wasn't easy. I was not prepared for an Ivy 106 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,280 League school. And this was the first time 107 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,640 you'd left Texas? First time I left Texas, yeah. 108 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,000 Greyhound bus Greyhound bus. It's silly. 109 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,600 Yeah, to Philadelphia. I saw this, the arch in Saint 110 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,400 Louis. I saw the Pittsburgh skyline at 111 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,360 dusk. I'd never seen these things 112 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:38,080 before. And I was like, wow, this is 113 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,520 this is amazing. San Antonio back then was a it 114 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,600 was a small, small little city. Yeah. 115 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,400 It wasn't what it is today. So I got to Princeton and it, it 116 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,520 was, it was beautiful, but I couldn't appreciate the beauty 117 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,720 because I was so nervous and I was a little scared. 118 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,600 And then I had to start studying, but I had to work 119 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,080 because I, I was on scholarship, but I also had to work because 120 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,040 I, you know, I couldn't afford everything that I was, you know, 121 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:07,240 paying there. And my first paper, I got AC and 122 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,640 I was devastated. And I thought, wow, that's a 123 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,600 slap in the face. And I thought, OK, no, this is, 124 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,760 this is going to be a lot of work, hard, hard work. 125 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,600 So I had to study and, and I did, and I, and I worked, I 126 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,680 worked in the kitchen at, at my, my, the, the Princeton Inn, it 127 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,160 was called, that was the name of my dorm. 128 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,360 And so I thought, all right, we're going to, we're just going 129 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,880 to make this work. And, and, and so I did and I was 130 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,200 a little, I was not a little, I was very intimidated by the 131 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,520 people that I was around because we would sit having dinner and 132 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,080 we'd be taught. They'd be talking about all 133 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,480 these things that they did. Like I also, what did you get 134 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,000 for graduation? All my parents. 135 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,679 I spent the whole summer in Europe. 136 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,800 Oh, I got a, one person said to me, Oh, I got an Audi. 137 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,040 And I asked her afterwards, I said, what's an Audi? 138 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,920 And she goes, it's an Audi, not an Audi. 139 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,600 She goes, you don't know what an Audi is. 140 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,320 No, I've never heard of it. She goes, it's a car. 141 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,320 I was like, oh, sorry, I didn't, I didn't know it was a car. 142 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,120 And I was praying that it didn't come around to me because I 143 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,760 thought if I have to say what I got for, for graduation, it's 144 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,800 going to be very embarrassing because I got maybe $300.00 for 145 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,800 my whole family. But I thought, no, you know 146 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:12,880 what? That's it. 147 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,760 It is what it is. And, and I got over that because 148 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,840 I thought to myself, I have something to contribute. 149 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,400 It may not be a lot, but I have something to contribute. 150 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,240 I'm here to contribute just as they're all contributing. 151 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:28,880 And once I put that into my head, I started to make it work. 152 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,320 And so I, I ended up majoring in romance language and literature 153 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,520 because I wanted to be a teacher. 154 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:36,920 And then I wanted to be a professor. 155 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,240 My dream was to become a third grade teacher. 156 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:41,840 And my parents said to me, if you become a third grade 157 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,800 teacher, that will be a, you'll be a huge success because when 158 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,000 you come from a poor family, being, becoming a third grade 159 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,520 teacher is, is it's an accomplishment. 160 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,840 And that was my, my goal. That was my dream. 161 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,240 So then I got to, to Princeton. I thought, well, maybe I could 162 00:09:55,560 --> 00:09:59,480 be a professor, maybe I could teach at a university and I was 163 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,960 going to go on to Graduate School, but I was so burned out 164 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,520 after four years. I, I was exhausted, you know, 165 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,360 mentally exhausted. So I thought, I have to, I have 166 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,880 to do something for a year or two and then I'll go back to, to 167 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,200 grad school. So I fell in love with New York 168 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,480 when I, when I got there and I thought, you know what, let me 169 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:19,760 interview with different companies. 170 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,080 So I was interviewing with a lot of companies when they came to 171 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,200 campus, banks, insurance, very boring. 172 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,720 You know, for me personally, it was very boring because I was 173 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,120 going into New York and going into the offices and I thought, 174 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,880 God, these people don't look very excited about what they're 175 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,120 doing. And then one day the, the 176 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,400 retailer started coming and I got a call back from 177 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,080 Bloomingdale's to come into the city for an interview. 178 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,080 So I did and I walked into that store and I thought, wow, the 179 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:50,200 energy, it's crazy in here. And, and I thought, this is it. 180 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,400 This is what I'm going to do. So I got a job as a executive 181 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,280 trainee is what it was called. And they, they were paying me 182 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,960 $9500 a year to live in New York way back then. 183 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,840 It was I, you know, I was rent poor. 184 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,480 It was a struggle, but I thought, OK, fine. 185 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,200 And I did it. And I just, that's how I, that's 186 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,800 how I started and I stayed with it and one year turned into two 187 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,800 years. But the third year I thought, 188 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,800 you know, maybe I'm not going to go back to grad school as I 189 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:22,760 started to really like it. So I stayed with it and 47 years 190 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:27,840 later I retired as a retailer. Oh my God, that's an incredible 191 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,400 story, by the way. It it it's amazing that we're in 192 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,960 we're in Philadelphia right now, which is where that that 193 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,800 Greyhound. Yes, yes, you off not too far. 194 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,760 You're probably 30th St. station or somewhere close special place 195 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,880 for you. I, I it particularly resonates 196 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,400 with me that you had this teacher. 197 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,600 It sounds like this teacher gave you a, a really important push 198 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,200 or challenge to, to go outside of your comfort zone. 199 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,880 I also had that same experience in high school, like this 200 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,480 amazing art teacher who her name was Missus Cram and Missus Cram 201 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,640 would, would, would come over as we're painting. 202 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,440 It's, it's, it's gorgeous what you're doing. 203 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:14,160 And that is just so special. And yet do you feel like you're 204 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,640 pushing yourself to the limit and, and somehow that 205 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:26,000 combination of support and validation with that challenge, 206 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:34,840 was it it just it I I was able to feel good and yet also 207 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,440 wanting to strive to go even further. 208 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,680 It was it was really cool. Anything you you have a a 209 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,240 teacher or. AI was going to say, I I 210 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,200 actually trained to be a teacher really before I was ACEO. 211 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,800 And then they told me like how much of my time would be spent 212 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,920 administering and, you know, not actually teaching. 213 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,840 And I was like, oh, and how much is the pay? 214 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,600 And so, but I think there's something in what you were 215 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,000 saying about there's, there's a couple of themes that I'm 216 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,400 hearing that are relevant. I think that Resonate 1 is about 217 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,960 like having been pushed. And I remember Richard Boyat is 218 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,560 talking about like the people who've pushed us or encouraged 219 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:17,800 us or saw something in US. And also the reverse of that. 220 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,440 And I think this is really relevant with Bob because how 221 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,240 how he would challenge people in a way that didn't seem 222 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,360 confrontational or contradictory or diminishing. 223 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,000 And that to me is the teachers craft and it's also the CE OS 224 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,280 craft is seeing potential and unlocking potential in others. 225 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,400 Well, and also creating these conditions of safety where you 226 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:48,200 feel compelled to push further outside of your in in this book, 227 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:56,360 which obviously I love you talk about invisible fences and 228 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,160 getting outside of your comfort zone. 229 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:06,000 And I think one of the art, one of the most like difficult but 230 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,120 also rewarding aspects of leadership when done well, is 231 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,120 when you're able to set those conditions where somebody is 232 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,560 willing to get to that other side of fear. 233 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,200 It's very hard to do. By the way, I was chuckling 234 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,520 actually, because Bob, Bob even did it to me, even though I 235 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,120 wasn't part of the team. One of the sessions that we had, 236 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,840 you know, he was like, I think we can go further. 237 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,240 I think we can push harder. I think you know without 238 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,200 describing the detail because. Well, without a feeling. 239 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,240 But it's like but without a feeling like oh man, I didn't do 240 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,760 good enough for. Like he, I think he's, you know, 241 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,320 he's saying the conditions are right, let's go, go that next 242 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,680 step and go further in pushing and challenging people while we 243 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,200 were in the room together. And I think that's an 244 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,600 exceptional skill. And you know, I don't think 245 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,280 anybody does it as well as Bob does. 246 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,320 But to me, it's that thematic about sort of that educate, the 247 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,920 educational drive or the being able to see potential where 248 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:03,840 other people may not understand motivation where other people 249 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,400 may not. That's something that is really 250 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,000 it's not in many of the books that you read when they talk 251 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,240 about leadership, we talk topic. Typically we're going to say, 252 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,440 OK, who didn't perform or what didn't happen or what do we, you 253 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,600 know, what's missing from this scenario instead of 254 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,320 understanding or taking that second step beyond to say, well, 255 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,440 how do we unlock that? Like there must have been an 256 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:25,920 obstacle. People don't show up to work to 257 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,080 do lousy work. Most of the time they they come 258 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:30,960 because they want to do do good work. 259 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,960 And so being able to take that pause and think about how do I 260 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,320 challenge them in a way as constructive and how do I remove 261 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,640 some of the obstacles that they may not see right? 262 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,800 What's the invisible obstacles that they may not see, but I may 263 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,160 be able to see that are holding them back. 264 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,320 And so you know, I say Bob does it as well as anybody I've ever 265 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,640 worked with. He even did it to me. 266 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,440 That's amazing. Wasn't on the team that's. 267 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,200 Because you were supposed to do it too. 268 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,760 But he that's, that's incredible. 269 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,640 And, and by the way, like, that's the beautiful job thing 270 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,680 about our, our job as executive coaches is, is how much we get 271 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,880 to learn from our clients, right? 272 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:14,160 Bob, I'm so, so you, you, you got off the bus, you did 273 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:20,920 Princeton, you decided to take a leap and, and took the job at, 274 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,960 at, at Bloomingdale's, which now, I don't know, sounds like 275 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,480 40 years later or so. Now you're on the, on the, on 276 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,080 the board of, of Macy's, which is also an amazing full circle. 277 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,960 Help me understand, like at what point, you know, maybe it wasn't 278 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:43,400 a singular point, but like, when did you realize that like you're 279 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,280 not just going to be a, a doer or even an executive doer, but 280 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:55,120 that you have this innate capacity to lead and, and you 281 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,360 know, at what point did the emergence of that identity come 282 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,920 through for you? I would say it, it probably 283 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,400 again, everything is, is in in retrospect, because at the time 284 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,040 I, I was so nervous, I was scared, but I thought, OK, I'm 285 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,880 going to make this work. And, and a funny story when I, I 286 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,480 made that decision that I have something to contribute here. 287 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,000 In one of the conversations, I was talking to Sir, about how my 288 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,480 parents used to turn the radio on on Saturdays and, and they 289 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,520 would dance like in, in the small little dining room we had. 290 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,400 And then my mother would grab me and she would dance with me. 291 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,440 So I've always loved to dance. And it comes from that memory. 292 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,720 SO11 day we were talking about different things and the, the 293 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,280 topic of dancing came up and none of none of these Princeton 294 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,720 people dance, none of my my fellow students. 295 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,360 And I was like, you don't dance. Like, what do you mean you don't 296 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:48,360 dance? And they're like, well, you 297 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:49,920 know, we don't really have the opportunity or anything. 298 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,000 And they said, what kind of dancing do you do? 299 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,200 I said, well, all kinds of dancing. 300 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,360 I said, but I've also learned because of my parents, I 301 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:58,160 learned, you know, some ballroom dancing. 302 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:59,960 Like what? Like ballroom dancing. 303 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,880 I said, yeah. And and they said, well, would 304 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,680 you maybe be willing to like teach us? 305 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,480 And I said, Oh my God, like, yeah, sure, why not? 306 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,360 So I started a class. I started a ballroom dancing 307 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,560 class in the in the Princeton in the dormitory and we'd clear out 308 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:21,320 the dining room and the first week it was maybe 6 students. 309 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,920 The next week it was 15 students. 310 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,680 The next week it was like 20 students. 311 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,640 I was like, well, no, no, that's it, no more. 312 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,880 We can't do anymore. And they were all, I was 313 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,840 teaching them all how to dance and it was amazing. 314 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,680 So that I think about that now because I'm thinking like, how 315 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,000 did, where did that come from? How did I get that idea? 316 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,160 But it, it was just that like something inside of me said, OK, 317 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,240 no, you're, you're going to contribute something and you're 318 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,080 going to make it work. So then I became known on campus 319 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,600 like, oh, this is the guy who teaches ballroom dancing. 320 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,080 You know, this is this is Bob Chavez. 321 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,080 He teaches ballroom dancing. It wasn't like Bob Chavez, the 322 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,720 poor kid from San Antonio anymore. 323 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,080 It was like, you know, the, the, the ballroom dancer and that led 324 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,480 to other things over time, I just kept doing more and more 325 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:11,280 and more and, and another story that Christmas I went into the 326 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,920 travel agency on Nassau St. because I thought I couldn't 327 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,200 afford to go home for Christmas and I wanted to go home for 328 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,240 Christmas. So I walked into the travel 329 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,760 agency and I said, so how many tickets would I have to sell to 330 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,800 get a free ticket? And she looked at me. 331 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,680 She goes, what are you talking about? 332 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,080 I said, well, if I sell X number of tickets and generate enough 333 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:33,160 revenue, how many do I have to sell for me for you to give me a 334 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:34,920 free ticket to get to San Antonio? 335 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:37,800 She goes, you're serious? I said yes. 336 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,440 So she does a little calculation. 337 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,360 She goes, OK, so you have to sell 20. 338 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,000 You have to sell 20 tickets. And I thought, Oh my God, 20 339 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,240 tickets. I said OK. 340 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,680 And she was the kind of like, this is never going to happen, 341 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,120 but fine. So I went out and I sold 26 342 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,640 tickets because I knew there were a lot of people from Texas 343 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,000 there. So I and I was, I was out at 344 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,120 hustling hustle 26. I got myself a free ticket to go 345 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:02,840 home. And my mother was like shocked. 346 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,320 She's I thought you said you were coming home. 347 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,600 I said, well, I made my way. I made my way home. 348 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,800 God I love that story. And that's how it started. 349 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,240 And, and, and you know, Jonathan, after that, I just 350 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,640 felt like, OK, I can, I can do this. 351 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,440 I can put a challenge in front of me. 352 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,240 I can do that. I can find a way to figure it 353 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:19,720 out. I can find a way to make it make 354 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,120 it happen. That is that's absolutely 355 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:24,840 amazing. I love that story. 356 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:30,000 Oh my goodness, and I love that like you made dance go viral. 357 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,320 But then I also heard in that that that you said at 20 word 358 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,960 word were too much, right, And that actually makes me think 359 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:43,600 about Hermes, right? It makes me think about creating 360 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,400 incredible amounts of demand, but not but knowing when to say 361 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:58,280 when and not constraining supply per SE, but but but knowing how 362 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:04,400 to balance quantity and quality in such a way that you create 363 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,360 this sort of magical point of, of of of where where the 364 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:13,560 consumer just wants something so bad, right? 365 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:20,080 And they can maybe get it right. So let's just just, I'd love to 366 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:25,480 understands your perspective on this fascinating company. 367 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,200 Like I have a story. Like I, I speak to, to CEOs and 368 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,000 executives all day for, and we've done this for 16 years. 369 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,920 I, I had asked a, an insurance, the president of a, of a, of a, 370 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,040 of the biggest division of an insurance organization. 371 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,280 Like, like what, you know, what do you aspire towards and what, 372 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:49,160 what you know, what intrigues you in the world leadership and, 373 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,680 and, and organizational, you know, success. 374 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,920 And, and he said, Hermes, I said, what Hermes like you're in 375 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,560 insurance, that's a luxury retail. 376 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:02,400 He's like Hermes, like that's, I want to figure out how they did 377 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,520 that. So maybe you could help us like 378 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:13,520 understand what's the secret sauce and, and, and that that 379 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,880 could create such a, you know, I described this, this buying 380 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,600 experience as as spiritual, right? 381 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,280 When you go into most stores, you know, it's not a spiritual 382 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,240 experience per SE. Like you get what you need and 383 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,680 then you're out. What help us understand how 384 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,840 Hermes got to be the way it is? Well, that's a, that's a heavy 385 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,080 question, but I, I, I mean, I'll probably jump around to a lot of 386 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,040 places, but I would say it starts with the, with the 387 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,000 family. Really. 388 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,000 It's a very humble family. You never read about the family. 389 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,960 You, you don't see them on social media, you don't see them 390 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,960 in the society pages. You don't hear about, you know, 391 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,600 private jet, private yacht, you don't see any of that. 392 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,360 They're just a very humble and a beautiful family who care. 393 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,480 They care a lot about the the people that work at Hermes. 394 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,440 So it starts there and then it's what I've learned over the many 395 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,760 years and from the beginning that it's an uncompromising 396 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,120 commitment. And then I never forgot that 397 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,200 word. Uncompromising commitment to 398 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:19,800 quality, to craftsmanship and to and to making beautiful product 399 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,640 that will last a long, long time. 400 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,640 And one of the family members many years ago said, we Hermes 401 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,280 makes things that can be repaired. 402 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,560 And I never forgot that. I never forgot that. 403 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,920 I thought, wow, we make things that could be repaired. 404 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:37,200 And that's how, that's how the family thinks. 405 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,840 That's how the business has been built on that. 406 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,360 Not like, you know, well, it's going to wear out. 407 00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,760 It's going to be, it's not going to be in style next season or 408 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,440 next year. It's really, and it's where I 409 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,480 came, I came up with, I mean, I just described it as sort of 410 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,960 like, you know, timelessness. There's a timeless or an 411 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,840 enduring style to the things that that Hermes makes. 412 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,320 And that's why these these things could get passed down 413 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,080 generation to generation because they will be enduring in their 414 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,760 style. And another, another great 415 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,560 thing, John Louis de Ma, he was the 5th generation head of the 416 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,080 company and he's the one who who hired me. 417 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,000 He said to me one time, he said, you know, Bob, because we, we 418 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,480 always ask ourselves the question. 419 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,680 He goes, we make something. He said, I always ask everybody, 420 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,560 is this going to be, is this going to be relevant 25 years 421 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,200 from now? Is it going to be usable 25 422 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,960 years from now? And I remember thinking like 25 423 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,480 years of retail or no, who? No, that's like impossible. 424 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,040 And so every time I looked at prop, they came 25 years from 425 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,600 now. And do you want to know? 426 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,160 I have, I have things that I bought when I started 25 years 427 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,360 ago and I still wear them. And I thought, I think of John 428 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,560 Louis de Moc and I thought he knew that that's that was how 429 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,840 the family thought. So it is that uncompromising 430 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,680 commitment to quality and and craftsmanship that has really 431 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,920 made the company enduring. There's a tremendous amount of 432 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,360 patience, patience in terms of like, you don't have to rush and 433 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:11,840 grow the business, you know, so quickly. 434 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,000 Yeah, you have to grow the business. 435 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,160 But it's not about rushing. It's not about opening up like 436 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,360 tons of distribution, you know, going for the next thing, 437 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:23,400 following the shiny object is just that uncompromising 438 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,320 commitment to all these things. And it, it sounds easy, you 439 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,960 know, but you have to be committed to doing that, really 440 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,080 committed to doing that. That's, that's unbelievable. 441 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,360 I I, I love this, this notion of an uncompromising, you know, 442 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:42,040 attitude towards quality and craftsmanship, but there's also 443 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:48,160 this piece around like, like timelessness as almost like a 444 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,400 design principle. So that when we set out to to 445 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,120 make something, you know, if will this be timeless? 446 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,520 Does does this have a 10 year shop life, 15 years, or is it 447 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,320 actually timeless? And, and if it's timeless, then 448 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,480 we proceed. But if, if not, then it doesn't 449 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,840 meet the criteria to, to proceed. 450 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,120 Perhaps. Yes, exactly. 451 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:09,160 That's, that's, that's incredible. 452 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:15,640 OK, so so that that definitely helps me understand more about 453 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,760 the the magic. If we were to think about what 454 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,320 it's like to lead within that context. 455 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,520 Can you help that you know what, what what is it take to lead 456 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,800 within that context? I mean, I'm sure, you know, 457 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,760 people are wired for that. They want growth and they want 458 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,680 that immediate gratification of, of rapid growth and, and 459 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,960 expansion. If somebody were to say, I, I, I 460 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,480 want more of that, you know, it's like absolutely. 461 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,120 And take even more like, how do you, you know, this is like the, 462 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,320 the, the nature of, of, of humans, right? 463 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,960 Like we're not wired to be patient. 464 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,360 No, we're not. So, so how do you lead 465 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,760 successfully in that in that context? 466 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,560 Maybe you could share a little bit about like what's the 467 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,680 leadership playbook and, and, and also like what, what are 468 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,080 some of the challenges? Yeah, as as a leader. 469 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,480 Well, if I could just share a a story with you. 470 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,160 When I when I got the job, I was so convinced I wasn't going to 471 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,640 get this job because I thought, why is there mez going to? 472 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,320 Hire me, the CEO. The CEO, Yeah. 473 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,320 And you went to her Mez. I thought I went from I I 474 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,040 started at Bloomingdale's 10 years, Macy's six years, and 475 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,800 then Etienne Eigner for eight years. 476 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,720 Moderate price, you know, footwear accessory company, I 477 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,560 love to say our shoes were 4999 and the decimal was in the 478 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,360 middle. And so I didn't really have 479 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,160 luxury experience and I couldn't understand why, you know, I 480 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,360 thought, well, no, they're not going to hire me. 481 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:47,680 The, the, the recruiter said we'll go, you have to go this 482 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,280 interview. So I wanted the I thought I'll 483 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,800 meet these people. Then they asked me to go to 484 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,000 Paris. I met Jean Louis de Ma and I 485 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,160 thought, I'm not going to not meet this man. 486 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,880 So I did still thinking never going to happen. 487 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:04,280 So then I get, I get a, we had a story and his, he told me the 488 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,200 story that his father said to him, you have to know that, that 489 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,240 we are first and foremost retailers. 490 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,600 And he said, you're going to lead the company someday as the 491 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,120 family head. And he said, so you need to 492 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:19,200 learn the retail business. And he said there's there's only 493 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,680 one city for you to go to to learn that business and that's 494 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,600 New York. And he said there's only one 495 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,520 place in New York for you to learn it the best. 496 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,960 And he's like, that's Bloomingdale's. 497 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,920 And he says to me, I had a great mentor when I was at 498 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,600 Bloomingdale's. And he goes, I said, oh, who was 499 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,800 it? And he goes, his name was Mike 500 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,320 Blumenthal. I said, wait, you worked for 501 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,760 Mike Blumenthal? And he goes, you know Mike 502 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,760 Blumenthal. I said, I worked for Mike 503 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,880 Blumenthal. And you know what he says to me? 504 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,400 He goes, how old are you? So I flew home. 505 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,560 I got home Friday night and Saturday morning the phone rings 506 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,680 and guess who it is? It's Mike Blumenthal. 507 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,200 And I thought, Oh my God, I said so. 508 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,800 So he called you and he goes, yes, he did. 509 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,760 And he said, and he only asked me one question. 510 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,920 And I said he said I didn't. He didn't want to know about 511 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,440 your management style. He didn't want to know what you 512 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,600 were like to work with. He didn't know how do you deal 513 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,040 with other people? He said just one question. 514 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,520 I said, well, can you share it? He said yes. 515 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,000 He said. Can I trust him? 516 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,960 That's absolutely. That is unbelievable. 517 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:23,880 And so then I, the my future boss flies over the next Tuesday 518 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,040 and offers me the the job. And I, I couldn't believe it. 519 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,960 I just could not believe it. And it was a no brainer, of 520 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,600 course. Wait, so he. 521 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,680 Flew because we're not talking about, you know, flying from 522 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,240 Chicago to New York. He he flew from. 523 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,840 Paris. It was from Paris to New York, 524 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,000 NY to perfectly hand me the letter, and I'd never forgot 525 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,200 that. And I thought, wow, that says a 526 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,120 lot to me about this company. I the word elegance always, 527 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,320 always comes to mind. What it's one of the things I 528 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,760 think about Hermes, but it's not only the elegance of the 529 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,960 product, it's the elegance of the of the people that work 530 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,480 there. And that just I thought, do you 531 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,480 know what? Anybody who does that that I 532 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,920 want to work for, I want to work for those people because that's 533 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,560 I want to be like that. That's absolutely incredible. 534 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,440 OK, That is that is an incredible story. 535 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,480 So, so that then becomes the beginning of. 536 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,720 You think the CEO? Yes. 537 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,280 That is, that's tremendous. Well. 538 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,960 Jamie, you, you've had the opportunity to work with Bob 539 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,320 and, and, and his team and, and you've also written this amazing 540 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,240 book chapters that resonate with all of us. 541 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,560 I'm curious like it does 1 chapter in particular stand out 542 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,320 to you when you when you reflect back on the work itself well. 543 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,280 If I can be greedy, there's actually 2 that I think of when 544 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,880 I, when I think of you can squeeze onto Bob and, and 545 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,680 Hernez. The first one was about this 546 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,240 leader of storyteller because that is something that, you 547 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,720 know, we keep coming back to. And you can hear lots of people 548 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,040 talk about this idea about storytelling, but we actually 549 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,320 structured one of our sessions with the, with the wider team. 550 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,680 We had 26 people, I think in the in in Jersey City for a day and 551 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,120 a half. And we structured the 552 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,320 organizational, the the the team session around storytelling. 553 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,520 So tell telling the individual story, telling our story about 554 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,160 us as a team, telling our story about the organization and then 555 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,720 creating the story about what we're going to go and do. 556 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,120 And so you know that that whole chapter about storytelling was 557 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,360 really informed by the time that I spent with Bob and his team 558 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,240 Hermes, but it is intrinsic to leadership. 559 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,600 And, and Bob, this is so well, which is you're modelling the 560 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,560 behaviours, you're communicating with your team, right? 561 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,640 You're unlocking the power and the potential in the team. 562 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,880 You are sense making, You're helping them to understand what 563 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,960 the context means. And I'd really love to hear Bob 564 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,000 talk about this a little bit more about sense making. 565 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,120 How do you, you know, inform the team about what's going on? 566 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,880 How do you prevent them from making you know, instinctive 567 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,120 decisions or or you know market driven decisions? 568 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,960 How do you stay grounded, particularly in an organization 569 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,840 that's thinking about 25 year cycles instead of 25 minute or 570 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,360 25? Days when you have like. 571 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,040 Fierce. Competition all all around, 572 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,320 there's sharks all around. How do you sort of focus on the 573 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:29,400 long term and, and having these sort of uncompromising, you 574 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:36,680 know, adherence to things like like quality when there's so 575 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:42,120 many shortcuts or even just like short term thinking that could 576 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,240 help solve something immediate? And so part of, you know, when I 577 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,680 went inside the organization, I could see there's a natural 578 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,760 capability that Bob has better than anybody else I work with. 579 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,280 But his team also had this ability to be able to tell 580 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,240 stories because we're, you know, we're connecting people to their 581 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,320 own story through through this product in a way that's going to 582 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,200 be lasting and enduring. That brings elegance and 583 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,000 finesse. It's so aspirational. 584 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,560 And that brings us to sort of the last part about 585 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,600 storytelling, which is the future that we're going to go 586 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,600 and inhabit. And so I saw that really 587 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,200 clearly. And so that's a that's a really 588 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,640 good chapter. Secondly, and I said this to Bob 589 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,120 when the book Oh. Wait, hold on the the 590 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,400 storytelling and sense making two separate things. 591 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,000 That that separate, Yeah, sense making is part of the 592 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,680 storytelling. So in story, there's the stories 593 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,000 we tell about ourselves. Then there's the stories we tell 594 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,520 about our team or our organization or the group of 595 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,040 people that we have galvanized together to make a better 596 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,040 future. But then there's the stories 597 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,600 about the context. And that's the piece. 598 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,160 I would love to hear Bob to a little bit as about sense making 599 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,040 because as a leader, you are helping people to understand. 600 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,960 Certainly this is my experience. You know, people come into your 601 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,200 office and say, hey, something's happened and we need to react or 602 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,920 something's happened, what you're going to do about it or 603 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,640 something's happened and they leave a pause and then you might 604 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,480 feel obliged to do something. And so sense making is 605 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,040 understanding your own self, your own frame of reference, the 606 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,880 team, the capabilities you have, but also the strategic 607 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,680 discipline to be able to say, no, we don't have to do that or 608 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,280 we're not going to do that because that's not who we are. 609 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,239 And that was really, you know, I've got to imagine that such a 610 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:15,159 powerful force in the heart of of aggressive retail where 611 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:16,400 you're saying, no, no, hang on a minute. 612 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,920 We are 25 years thinking we're creating something that's of 613 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,199 beauty and of value that people are going to have the experience 614 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,120 versus just a transaction. And then finally, we have the, 615 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,480 you know, sort of future shaping or the community building the 616 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,320 stories we tell about where we're going. 617 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,679 And so as natural leaders, we do that. 618 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,600 And I'm just intrigued. I'd love to hear Bob talk a 619 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,360 little bit about how did you resist the pressure to react in 620 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,880 the short term to, to ride in the hotbed of the, you know, one 621 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,120 of the most aggressive retail markets in the world. 622 00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:48,320 If not the how did you resist that pressure and how did you 623 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,440 reinforce that point with your team about no, that's not who we 624 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,639 are, we don't need to react. We know who we are and we're 625 00:34:55,639 --> 00:35:00,000 good. Well, I, I would start with 626 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,120 saying that you have to unlearn a lot of things that I had to 627 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:09,280 unlearn a lot of things. And when I first started, well, 628 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,160 let me just add one, one more thing. 629 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,640 I finally went to Jean Louis after I got hired and I said, I 630 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,120 said, I can I just ask you a question? 631 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,160 I said, why, why did you hire me? 632 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,840 Because I don't really have any luxury experience. 633 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,760 Simple answer. He goes, because you're a 634 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,120 retailer. And I thought, OK, so then when 635 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,520 I started asking things like, what can we do this? 636 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,200 Can we try this? Everything was no. 637 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,560 And I thought, this is very frustrating. 638 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,080 Everything was no, no, no. And so I thought, OK, then 639 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,200 someone said to me, you're asking for too many things. 640 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,160 This was a a French colleague. And they said instead of going 641 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,760 and asking for five things, only ask for two things. 642 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:49,080 And I thought, well, that's the most stupid thing I've ever 643 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,160 heard of life. What difference is it going to 644 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,320 make? It's going to be no. 645 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:53,800 So I thought, all right, fine, I'm going to try it. 646 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,240 So I went ask for two things. Don't you know, I got my first 647 00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:00,200 yes. And I thought, God, how did they 648 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,680 know that? So that made me think like, OK, 649 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,800 so I have to understand the culture better. 650 00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:07,480 I have to, I have to listen a lot more. 651 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,560 And then I went back to the trust thing. 652 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,840 I thought, oh, now I get it. That's the trust thing. 653 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,000 They want. I'm going to have to be trusted 654 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,080 before I'm going to get more leeway. 655 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,320 So I got my first yes, we, we, you know, we moved forward with 656 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,160 it. It was, it was a good thing. 657 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,360 It worked out. Then I got another yes and then 658 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,760 another yes. And then over the years, I, I 659 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,680 became, you know, I, I had a lot of guesses and they really did 660 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,080 trust me and they let me, they let me make a lot of decisions. 661 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,840 Of course, what you know, what their, their collaboration. 662 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,480 But I was really starting to drive the, you know, the 663 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,800 direction, the business, the company, you know, in parallel 664 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,720 with everything that Hermes was, was doing. 665 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,800 But initially I thought to myself, I didn't even understand 666 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,000 how this, this company works. It's like everything they do is 667 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,120 wrong. It's like, you know? 668 00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:59,480 Who? Who leaves? 669 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,280 Who takes? The ready to wear off the floor 670 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,480 at the end of the season and holds it for another year before 671 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,840 they put it, you know, to an employee sale or or you know, 672 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,240 even a a once a year public sale. 673 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,600 I thought that's crazy. You put it on sale at the end of 674 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,640 the season so then you can make. Inventory and make. 675 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,000 And I think it doesn't make sense. 676 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,040 And then afterwards I'm thinking, shame on me because it 677 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,760 works and it really works. And I thought, OK, so unlearn 678 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,480 because it doesn't have to be done that way. 679 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,720 There's another way to, to do it. 680 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,240 And so once I got that, I thought, OK, now I just have to, 681 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,600 I have to listen more. I have to understand more and I 682 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,080 have to, I was, I'm a patient person to begin with, but I 683 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,120 really had to learn patients. But I learned from from them. 684 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,200 I learned from the family. I learned from the people at 685 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,640 Hermes and it was a, it was a, it was a great thing. 686 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,040 You know, all these stories about like, is it going to be 687 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,400 relevant 25 years from now? Uncompromising commitment, you 688 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,520 know, to quality and craftsmanship. 689 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,000 And we talk about uncompromising commitment to quality. 690 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:03,320 It's not just the quality of the product, it's the commitment to 691 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,240 the quality of the people. It's the commitment, the quality 692 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:09,120 of the experience. It's all of these things. 693 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,040 And, and this just sort of enveloped me. 694 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,920 There's no other way to, to describe it. 695 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,720 And then that's when I, that's when I started, I started, I 696 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,240 thought, OK, this, this works. This works for me. 697 00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:22,840 I like this, this is great. And we're going to, we're going 698 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,000 to go with that. And, and again, going back to 699 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,400 that kid in, in San Antonio and Princeton. 700 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,280 But, but you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to try to 701 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,560 even make it better than that. And that's what I did. 702 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,800 And that's what we got onto this whole culture thing, which Jamie 703 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,280 knows a lot about. Well, I, that's exactly what I'm 704 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:45,240 thinking is like how, how do you so fine, you got it right, It 705 00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:49,480 clicked for you, but you've got an organization of thousands of 706 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:55,040 people, right? And you know, people aren't, you 707 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,600 can't just like dip them into something called culture and 708 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,240 pull them out and everybody's now rowing together, right? 709 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:03,840 Unfortunately, it's. Doesn't work. 710 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,920 That would. Be awesome if it did, you know 711 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:14,720 Edgar Shine famous, you know, culture guru and and professor 712 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,440 would say the culture is sort of the values and behaviors. 713 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,840 It's like the collective values and and and the manifestation of 714 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,680 those, those values in behavior that in the sort of amalgamation 715 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,600 or aggregate, you know, represents like the culture for 716 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,680 better, for worse, right. Obviously, usually it's like 717 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,000 kind of a little bit of a mixed bag. 718 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,640 Peter Drucker would say that, you know, culture, the strategy 719 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,480 is important, like really important, but culture eats 720 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,720 strategy for breakfast. That's how important culture is. 721 00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:52,240 So, you know, as a leader, you know, it's something we talk 722 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:54,760 about in, in their leadership framework, this notion of 723 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,160 culture building, which is a, a, a, one of our really important 724 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,680 dimensions, one of 12 dimensions of leadership. 725 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,920 It's much easier said than done. How did you build a a a 726 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,320 cohesive, thriving culture? At Airmes and what's your 727 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,280 perspective on culture? Well, first of all, so it's 728 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,360 probably one of my favorite quotes in the whole world. 729 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,920 The culture, the strategy for for breakfast because the the 730 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,560 family believed and then subsequent I believed. 731 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,480 But, but, but even even more so that if if everything is if 732 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,240 everything is right, then the bottom line is going to happen. 733 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:36,960 The sales are going to happen. The bottom line is going to 734 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,640 happen. What happens in so many 735 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,600 businesses is that everybody looks at the bottom line first 736 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,480 and then tries to, to back into like, OK, how are we going to 737 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:45,920 get there? You know, to do this through 738 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,280 that. But if you really, if you're, if 739 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,800 you're just doing everything else right, you know, from, from 740 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,640 here, from your heart, then it's, it's going to happen 741 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,280 naturally. That person who's showing you 23 742 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,400 scars and telling you these stories and wanting to make sure 743 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,720 that you pick the exact right scar for your, for your wife or 744 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:07,400 your 20th anniversary. That's you can't you can't 745 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,720 replicate that, you know, and and you're going to come back 746 00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:11,920 because I think he like I'll come back. 747 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,400 I this was a great experience and I'll probably. 748 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,400 Pick up some Cologne on the way. And that's what that's what 749 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,160 people do. So I thought that this is this 750 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,160 is really important. And I made it a mission, a 751 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,680 personal mission that we were going to, we're going to change 752 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,080 the culture because we had what I encountered when I first 753 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,520 started, there were a lot of complaints coming from some of 754 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,160 the stores and, and the one store in particular, I don't 755 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:36,920 want to call them out now because it, there's a great 756 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,080 store, but someone said to me, who do your people think they 757 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:40,920 are? I, I walk into the store and 758 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,440 they're all standing there like this, hands folded, like, oh 759 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,520 God, she's not going to buy anything. 760 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,080 And I thought that who's doing that? 761 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,480 So I went to the store one day like unannounced and I walked in 762 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,000 the front door. Sure enough, there were three 763 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,880 people standing there like this. And I thought, wow, this is 764 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,600 really happening because I thought, this is no, no, this is 765 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,920 going to change. So we started to make the 766 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,320 changes little by little. So we created a, a vision 767 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,440 statement. We created what we call the 768 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,200 seven standards of service. And you heard me say earlier 769 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,120 that that that when I sold those tickets is make it happen. 770 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,080 You don't make that dance class happen. 771 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,560 Make that free ticket happen. And that became one of our 7th 772 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,720 standards of service. Make it happen, make it happen, 773 00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:29,440 make it happen. Yes, whatever you're doing, just 774 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,640 make it happen like. Will it into existence kind of 775 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,680 thing? Yeah, or just find a way to make 776 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:35,240 it happen. Just. 777 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,680 Make it happen. Yeah, exactly like we got to get 778 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,040 home for Christmas. And I, I've, I've gotten 779 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,880 exactly, exactly, you know, it's somehow some way just make it 780 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,720 happen. If you have to sell 20 tickets, 781 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:48,920 if I'm on 19, then I'm going to be on the street, you know? 782 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,120 But I could see somebody being like, like finding out to be 783 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:58,880 like daunting and, and, and, and almost like, like a scary thing. 784 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,560 How do you make that exciting like an inspiring? 785 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:06,880 It comes with, it becomes with people. 786 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:08,520 Yeah, people, you have the right. 787 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,440 People want to have no they, they. 788 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,680 Meaning if they're the right people or or, you have to 789 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:13,920 create. The you have to, you have to 790 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,800 create the you have to create the the idea that that they can 791 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,960 do it. You have to believe in people 792 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,520 and you have to some people are going to be on different levels. 793 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,160 But when you find the person says, I can't, I can't, I can't 794 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,680 say, let's just why don't you just try, try, try, take, take a 795 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,720 baby step and try and that they take the baby step and then 796 00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:34,320 they're like, wow, you know, then push him to the next step, 797 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,800 push him to the next step. You can't push all the people 798 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:38,520 like that because they're, they're not all going to go. 799 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,800 But you sort of assess and you figure out, OK, this one, this 800 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,720 one can go a lot further. But it, it goes back to, you 801 00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:49,600 know, that goes back to like that leadership leading with 802 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,680 emotion, which is what I what I did. 803 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,840 And, and the number one thing was that if you, if you care for 804 00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,520 people, if you respect them, if you, if you recognize them and 805 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,720 you reward them, they're going to, they're going to give you so 806 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,600 much more back than you could ever imagine. 807 00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:12,000 And once I saw that, that's what could happen, I thought, no, 808 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,640 this, this is what it's going to be like. 809 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,760 This is what we're going to do. We are and I started referring 810 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,400 to us as a family, that this is our family and you're a part of 811 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,400 this. This family and culture is a 812 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:26,160 24/7. Job You don't just set it and 813 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,400 forget, you know, come up with the seven imperatives. 814 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,160 Yeah. And then it's a piece of paper. 815 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,080 You hand it out, everybody hands it out there. 816 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:35,680 By the way, there's the poster of those seven things there. 817 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,000 Yeah, exactly. I got to go now. 818 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:38,600 And then you for you forget about it. 819 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,440 It's like, no, it's 20%. That's part of the role, right 820 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,800 of the leader is to reinforce that, and your daily 821 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,200 conversations is to remind people of what it is you've set 822 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,280 your organizational direction and just remind. 823 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,920 It's tricky because, you know, to come up with those seven 824 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,200 things and to make it beautiful and to, to, to translate that 825 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,240 vision into storytelling is like, it requires so much effort 826 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,080 that like, as a leader, I see this with a lot of, you know, 827 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,520 people that I, that I coach, I've seen it in myself. 828 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,960 Like it, you just, you're like, I did it job done. 829 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,280 Like I, I, I conveyed the cultural expectations and the 830 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,280 imperatives and and now everybody's got what they need 831 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,320 but tired of saying. It. 832 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,880 Well, I'm curious, like what were some of the tactics And I 833 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,720 know like Jamie, you've, you've talked, you know, about your 834 00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:31,000 work with, with Bob and about, you know, some, some of the 835 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,520 tactics. But he just said something about 836 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,280 leading with emotion. And I'm going to, I'm going to 837 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,200 paraphrase that into leading with love because, you know, and 838 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,440 that's something you don't normally hear in these kind of 839 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:48,800 conversations, but that really is Bob, you know, is an 840 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,240 exceptional, exceptional leader. And this was so unique. 841 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:55,080 I don't, I haven't seen it since or before. 842 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,680 Is the ability to just use that, you know, we talk, we talk about 843 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,560 trust or we may talk about respect. 844 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,280 And those, those are good proxy words in the workplace. 845 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,360 But I never saw a leader speak so much about love, loving the 846 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,760 work, loving the product, loving their clients, loving their 847 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,160 employees and using the word love in a way that I, I haven't 848 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,360 seen anywhere else. And so, and I said this to you 849 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,600 when I, when I wrote the book, there's a chapter, the last 850 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,240 chapter talks about what great leaders do and they do, they 851 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:27,080 lead with love. If you want to use the word 852 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,800 trust and you feel more comfortable with that, that's 853 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,720 fine. But it is possible to actually 854 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,960 use that kind of terminology to describe people as a family and 855 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,480 mean it to push people because you love them and you want them 856 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,040 to be their best. You want them to see in 857 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,760 themselves the thing that you can see in them from the outside 858 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:47,360 because that's initial, you know, that's intensically a lot 859 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,280 easier, but also to create this environment where people are 860 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,240 prepared to take care of each other because they care for each 861 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:57,600 other. And so, you know, I was able to 862 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,880 see it first hand. I was deeply appreciative and I 863 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:07,480 was also, I'm so interested like about the part of the, the, the 864 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,640 methodology. I would call it this were the 865 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:14,440 weekend reflections. And so once a week on a, on a 866 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,920 Friday, I think it was that Bob would send and it would either 867 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,080 be an image or it'd be an article or a thought or just 868 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,320 something that would inspire people and typically signed off 869 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,160 around, you know, I love you or like, you know, you know, I love 870 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,160 what you're doing or I love this organization. 871 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,920 How much of those weekend reflections or how did you 872 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,560 leverage the what, what was the purpose behind that in 873 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,720 connecting the culture? What was the value of the 874 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:42,280 weekend reflections? It was, it was to give people a 875 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,720 different perspective. It wasn't about business. 876 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:49,000 It wasn't about like, OK, the weekend's coming up. 877 00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:52,360 We have a big Saturday to do. You know, the week we we've 878 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,480 struggled for the week that we have a lot to make up on. 879 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,560 I thought, no, no, they need, they need to think about other 880 00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:58,640 things. They need to think about 881 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,280 something you know, philosophical or hear the words 882 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,880 of another, not their. Leaders and how much we sold 883 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,200 didn't sell in this category and. 884 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,560 Not at all. And it was really about, it was 885 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,280 really about, you know, like David Brooks is one of my 886 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,920 favorite writes for The New York Times. 887 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,560 I used a lot of his, you know, his opinions that I shared with 888 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,120 people. And they were about, they were 889 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,400 about leadership. They were about family. 890 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,520 They were about caring, but they're all types of things and, 891 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,560 and I would send them out every weekend and sometimes it was 892 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,120 just a simple note to say, you know what, take some time, 893 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,280 relax, chill out, spend time with family, spend time with 894 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,720 your friends and, and just enjoy life this weekend because that's 895 00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:39,320 important. It's important for you to do. 896 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,800 And people loved it because it gave them, it took them away for 897 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,480 a minute and then they came back even stronger and more and more 898 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,920 energized and, and I believe I strongly believed in 899 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,720 communication. It sounds so cliche. 900 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:55,360 It sounds so. People roll their eyes. 901 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:56,880 Oh, yeah, everybody communicates. 902 00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:58,960 No, people don't really communicate. 903 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,560 And I really communicated a lot through the weekend reflections 904 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:07,200 with the with the leaders. I would send every year at the 905 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,120 end of the year in December, I handwrote a letter, Oh my God, 906 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,960 that would recap the year. And I'd say just, you know, want 907 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:15,920 you to know that we, we've had a great year. 908 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,240 It's been good. If it wasn't a great year, I 909 00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:20,320 said our year was OK. You know, we could have done 910 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,400 better, but it was OK. We, we made it through. 911 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,840 We're all here and, and blah, blah, blah, some of the 912 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,760 highlights of the year. And, and then I would just close 913 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,640 by saying I just want to thank you for everything that you've 914 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:33,120 done. You know, none of this would be 915 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,080 possible if it weren't for every, every last one of you. 916 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,640 You all contribute. And I said, just want to wish 917 00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,720 you a great holiday season. Enjoy the time with your family 918 00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,440 and your friends. And I would sign it with love. 919 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,080 You know, Bob, and you know, when I retired, I had several 920 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,840 people come up to you and said, I have all 24 letters that you 921 00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:53,680 wrote me. I was like, no way. 922 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,240 And they said, yeah. And they're like here, look, 923 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,600 they're right here, but always handwritten. 924 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,920 And as time went on, when technology, you know, everything 925 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,840 was taxed, everything. I thought, no, I'm not going to, 926 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:05,760 I'm not going to type it. I'm going to hand. 927 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,120 And I still would hand write it and send it out. 928 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,520 Every employee in the company, every employee got them. 929 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:15,600 So we, we, we send a packet of 200 to 1 store, 50 to another 930 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,680 store, 10 to another. Everybody got the the letter. 931 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,560 That's I don't even know what to say other than them that's 932 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,040 aspiring to do that. That's what brings people 933 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,560 together. I mean, that connection, you 934 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,040 know, communication creates connection. 935 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,960 And I, I, I discovered that early on. 936 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,480 I'm thinking this pretty powerful. 937 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,040 So I just kept doing it. And then when COVID hit, I 938 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,760 thought I started, I started writing, I started emailing 939 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,480 people just to say, just here's an update, you know, here's a 940 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:46,720 here's what's, here's what's going on. 941 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,560 Don't worry, it's going to be OK. 942 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:50,640 And then I gave them updates little by little by little. 943 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,920 And I had no idea how strong that was until I started getting 944 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,960 emails back from individuals who said to me, I can't tell you how 945 00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:02,680 much your, your note meant to me. 946 00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,040 They said, because, you know, I'm not married, I live alone. 947 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:07,920 And I've had some really dark moments, Bob. 948 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,520 And they said when I read that, when I read that note, it gave 949 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,760 me hope. I thought, God, this is you 950 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,880 don't even know what you're doing sometimes. 951 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,600 And it just makes you want to do it more and more like keep 952 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,280 connecting people, keep keep bringing them together. 953 00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:26,400 And so I just kept, I kept doing it more and more and more. 954 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:32,000 We all know that that that these incredible values and principles 955 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:38,640 that, you know, inform the success of of Airmez, but 956 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:44,120 there's also this thing called leadership that just propped it 957 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,760 up and and bolstered it. And it's just amazing to hear. 958 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,600 Absolutely. I think that there was a 959 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,880 critical ingredient to this, this magic. 960 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,560 When I say magic, by the way, it's like you've got this, this 961 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,240 luxury brand Airmez that that zigs when this zags. 962 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,600 If you look at AI don't know what 10 year 15 year 20 or you 963 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,120 know stock chart of it is a publicly traded organization. 964 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,040 You know what when when economy is down, it's still up. 965 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:15,240 When when Asia customer, you know, recedes, it's still 966 00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:19,320 figures, figures out how to you know it it it seems to buck the 967 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,960 trend in some ways defy gravity. I am. 968 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:27,280 I am curious though, because you're now, you know, so so so 969 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:32,200 you've no longer the CEO you were chairman for, for. 22 970 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,320 years. Two years. 971 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,880 And, and now have this, you know, incredible position as, 972 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,440 as, as a member of the board at, at one of the largest retailers 973 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,200 in the world, Macy's, which, which owns Bloomingdale's. 974 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,680 So really cool full circle, like so different. 975 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,120 And yet maybe there's this sort of common denominator, right? 976 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,800 I go back to what your, your, your boss said, why he chose 977 00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,680 you. You're a retailer, right? 978 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:03,280 So, so there's a lot of, you know, air Air has the, the great 979 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,560 privilege of working with a lot of retail organizations and 980 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,120 retail CE OS and leaders. And there's a lot of, you know, 981 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:15,040 retailers who, who, who watch this podcast, help us understand 982 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,720 how to thrive right now in retail. 983 00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:23,560 When you've got like the, the, the amount of change and 984 00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:32,120 pressure is just extraordinary from e-commerce and the, you 985 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:36,000 know, implications to brick and mortar in the mall to, you know, 986 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,600 COVID. And, and, and some of the, not 987 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,800 only that, that volatility, but even some of the overhang that, 988 00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,160 that may have arguably like shaped, you know, in an enduring 989 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,320 way that, that the paradigm of, of, of the buyer's experience, 990 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,320 you know, and, and, and with all that pressure, by the way, 991 00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,920 especially if you're publicly traded, it's very tempting. 992 00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:05,360 If not, it may sometimes feel like absolutely necessary to 993 00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,880 lead with the number rather than the value or the vision, right? 994 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:15,000 Which to me is like the beginning of the end or just a, 995 00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:17,520 you know, sometimes you might make the number, but like, did 996 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,720 it feel great and was it energizing? 997 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,400 You know, and I'm, I'm, I'm very conscious that that your 998 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,640 approach to leadership was not that right. 999 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,880 It was, it was like the number will follow if we get all the 1000 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:34,560 behaviors right. But we don't lead per SE with, 1001 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,680 with the, you know, if we don't put this number up and then say, 1002 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,600 all right, let's go get that. We put the behaviors up and the 1003 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,840 vision up and then the number somehow follow. 1004 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:51,120 Help us understand the, the landscape broadly speaking and 1005 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,840 and then you know, kind of what advice would you give to like a, 1006 00:54:55,240 --> 00:55:01,080 a retail CEO right now? Well, I mean, the advice I would 1007 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,320 give and, and part of the answer to your question, it's really 1008 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,120 it's about focus. It's really focusing. 1009 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,920 And what happens today, I think is that people just keep looking 1010 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:14,200 at everything that's going on, like what, what are they doing? 1011 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:15,920 What are they doing? What's this is a trend? 1012 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,760 What about this? And people just keep doing that 1013 00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,080 more and more and more. And I read, I read a quote one 1014 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,720 time, another one I never forgot, and it said distraction 1015 00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:30,840 is the enemy of excellence. Distraction is the enemy of 1016 00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:32,680 excellence. And if you think about that, 1017 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,240 that's part of what's wrong with retail today is that a lot of 1018 00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:38,760 people get distracted. And there's so much distraction, 1019 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:39,880 it's unbelievable. Look what? 1020 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,480 Look what they did. We have to do that. 1021 00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:43,040 We have to do that, but we're going to do it better. 1022 00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:45,200 Yeah. So, so your, your, your, your 1023 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,920 path is here. You go over here and then maybe 1024 00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:50,280 it's not exactly the right thing. 1025 00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:54,160 So you have to have a strategy. You have to be committed to the 1026 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,600 strategy. You have to be uncompromising. 1027 00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,800 There's the word again to your strategy. 1028 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,280 And it was another thing that that I learned from the Irma's 1029 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,800 family. They always said just stay 1030 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,000 focused. They said you could look, you 1031 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,320 could look over there, you can peek, but don't, don't get 1032 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,960 distracted by it. Don't start getting obsessed by 1033 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,880 what the competition is doing. Stay focused on what on what 1034 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,920 we're doing and stay focused on what we do best and continue to 1035 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,800 do it best. And that, that's where then I 1036 00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:25,720 read that quote and I thought, well, yeah, there it is again. 1037 00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:27,840 It, it, it all, it all matches up. 1038 00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,800 So that's the thing. If, if you, if you stay very 1039 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,920 focused, if you focus on all these things and I go back to 1040 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,800 focusing also on the people. People are what make it make the 1041 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,560 difference. You know, you walk into a store 1042 00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,160 today, sometimes there's no people there because nobody 1043 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,320 wants to work there. It's a, you know, and every 1044 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,680 company has a reputation, whether they know it or not. 1045 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,520 And, and these people share, they'll tell about that's a 1046 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:51,960 terrible place. You don't want to go work there. 1047 00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,280 I know maybe it's a great job. You don't want to work there. 1048 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,360 They're they're really terrible. The same time they said, hey, 1049 00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,720 you know, Jonathan, I'm working over here and it's a great place 1050 00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:01,960 to work. You should, you should come 1051 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,000 interview for this job. So like people start to attract 1052 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,440 like people and that that just reinforces the culture. 1053 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:10,320 It makes it stronger and stronger. 1054 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:14,440 And it's a, it's a powerful formula And it's not, it's not 1055 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,640 tangible. And sometimes people have a hard 1056 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,040 time with the intangible things, but it's the intangible things 1057 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,680 that make the difference today. Meaning that focus is not 1058 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:25,880 tangible. Focus is not tangible. 1059 00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:28,960 No, no, somebody could say here's the here's the strategy. 1060 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,760 But but but a TikTok video is yeah. 1061 00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:32,840 Right. Exactly. 1062 00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:36,320 And the sweat coming down your forehead is and, and, and, and 1063 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,600 all of a sudden you find yourself, you know, looking out. 1064 00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,360 And there's a great quote. There's a book, the hard thing 1065 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,160 about hard thing. But this is the second time I've 1066 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,720 invoked the hard thing about hard things on this podcast. 1067 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,840 Ben, Ben Horowitz from Andreessen Horowitz, great, 1068 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,720 very, very famous venture capital, a very successful 1069 00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,600 venture capitalist. And in one of the chapters of 1070 00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,240 that book, he talks about leadership and, you know, kind 1071 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:06,920 of likens it to to racing, which which I can't relate to, 1072 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,320 unfortunately. I actually work with the CEO who 1073 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,960 who at the age of like, you know, in his mid 70s, is it like 1074 00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:17,200 basically a NASCAR racer, which is it's like really cool, but 1075 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:20,440 apparently right. You race cars, you race cars. 1076 00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:22,120 No, I don't. You've race cars. 1077 00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:24,800 Well, I was in the, I was in the industry. 1078 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:26,920 For a while you were in the industry, right, right when you 1079 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,680 when you were in the hot seat. Well, apparently you know that 1080 00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:35,760 like the, the, the greatest risk is when you look to the side, 1081 00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,040 right? And you're, when you're looking 1082 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,160 around and I guess you have to, like you mentioned, like a 1083 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,640 little bit like you got to be aware of your environment and 1084 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,080 some of the, the competitive threats. 1085 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:51,400 But like you, you know, cross that line and and look too long, 1086 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:52,680 you're you're straight into a wall. 1087 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:54,200 Right. Follow your eyes. 1088 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,880 Right, So, so focus is absolutely paramount. 1089 00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,800 I, I want to just, you know, you're, you're doing a lot of 1090 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,040 things right now, right? You, you've, you've got this 1091 00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,080 incredible board position at Macy's. 1092 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:15,000 You are the executive in residence at, you know, 1093 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:19,000 America's best or one of the best art schools in America, 1094 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:25,320 SCAD and you're, you're advising and, and consulting to, to 1095 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,360 retail leaders and, and organizations. 1096 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,840 How are, you know, tell us about this, this chapter in your your 1097 00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:35,240 career. And I'm also kind of just 1098 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,400 selfishly interested in like, you know, tell us a little bit 1099 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,680 more about the, the consulting work you do in the, in the 1100 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:42,360 retail. Space. 1101 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,280 Well, I have to say I'm, I'm really loving it. 1102 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,200 I had everybody told me, you know, what it was going to be 1103 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,960 like to be retired, especially because I, I've been, you know, 1104 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,280 I'm a type A personality. I've been, I've been driven for 1105 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,240 47 years of my career. And as I'm thinking, I'm 1106 00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:58,760 listening to all these people think, I'm getting a little 1107 00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,440 nervous. And I thought, you know what? 1108 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:06,000 Just just, you know, accept it, you know, and, and, and go with 1109 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,640 it and, and let it, let it leave where it's going to lead. 1110 01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,320 Like everything else in my life. I had, I, there was no game plan 1111 01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:12,800 in my life. I just went with what? 1112 01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,240 You know what? Was in front of me and I 1113 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,440 thought, well that seems like to be the right decision you know 1114 01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,520 go work for her mez they offered you the job go work for her mez 1115 01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,680 so I've continued with that that same feeling and I'm I'm 1116 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,120 enjoying it immensely. I, I still love challenges that 1117 01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,600 the people that I'm working with now, I love listening to their, 1118 01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,320 you know, their challenges with, you know, what they're worried 1119 01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:39,520 about using the same principles that I've, I've used for many, 1120 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,280 many years. You know, we, we talked about 1121 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:43,960 management, we talked about culture, we talked about 1122 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,800 strategy. We talked about, you know, the 1123 01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,960 uncompromising commitment, you know, define who you are and 1124 01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,320 then stay, stay with that. You'll stay focused on that. 1125 01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:58,840 And I'm a little bit surprised at how people just continue to, 1126 01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,240 to get unfocused. They, they, they started looking 1127 01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:04,120 over here and I was like, no, no, that is not who you are. 1128 01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,120 Stop looking at that. That's not who you are and, and 1129 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,440 I think I've helped some people with that because it it does 1130 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,640 help them stay very focused. This is what you do best and and 1131 01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:14,200 stay on this, you know, for a while. 1132 01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,160 Today's world move so quickly. Everybody just wants to move 1133 01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,920 faster and faster and faster. Slow down, slow down a little 1134 01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:23,200 bit. It's going to, it's going to 1135 01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,640 help you well, because. We have to adapt and and evolve 1136 01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,840 and grow and and and try new things and, and that's part of 1137 01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:37,720 the joy of life. But but it it, it, you do it, 1138 01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,840 you build upon a base that's firm and uncompromising in terms 1139 01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:47,080 of like your core identity and what you stand for. 1140 01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,760 And I think what happens what what can happen is that that 1141 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,120 piece also starts to just get put in the washing machine, you 1142 01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:59,800 know, So that's, that's really. There's a parallel as well. 1143 01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,000 You know, we're talking about how you stay. 1144 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:06,040 You understand who you are and stay disciplined around the 1145 01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,280 things that you say no to. And there is an individual 1146 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,000 version of that. But we can all play out in our 1147 01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:13,720 lives. And there is an organizational 1148 01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,680 version of that, which is knowing who your, what your 1149 01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:18,880 organization is and does and who they serve. 1150 01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:24,080 And that then allows you a lot more clarity and focus and 1151 01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,960 discipline around ignoring the things that have nothing to do 1152 01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:28,800 with where you, you shouldn't be. 1153 01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:33,440 And so, you know, we, we individually follow that same 1154 01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:38,600 pathway and we have a, a shiny example of how that can happen 1155 01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:42,360 organizationally through the, through the value of people. 1156 01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,800 Through the value of people. Well, we're we're getting to 1157 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,840 that to that point on the podcast where we're doing our 1158 01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:56,720 leadership lightning around. So just kind of like let's 1159 01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:58,960 percolate. There's been I, I, I mean, this 1160 01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,920 has been so rich. The amount of insights, 1161 01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:04,960 insights. Interestingly, you know, you, 1162 01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,360 you, you can make the error of thinking that that just resides 1163 01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:14,120 in your, in your head. But many of the things we talked 1164 01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:21,240 about today went into my heart and I, I just I'll be re 1165 01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,400 listening to this podcast along with our viewers. 1166 01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:32,600 A a parting piece of advice or, or something that really 1167 01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,040 resonated from this conversation. 1168 01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:40,320 I'll, I'll, I'll kick us off, you know, I just, I'll save the 1169 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,040 best for last. And I, I, it's for me. 1170 01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:48,160 There's, there's this word uncompromising, which has me 1171 01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:54,400 really compelled it, it to me. It's it is connected to focus 1172 01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,640 and but knowing, you know, we have to adapt. 1173 01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:02,120 It is the tricky part about leadership and, and, and being 1174 01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:06,720 human, frankly, which is like we have to know what to change and 1175 01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:08,840 what not to change. You know, where do we adapt? 1176 01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:16,080 Where do we preserve and and and stay steadfast and but you know, 1177 01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:20,280 kind of like deciphering what is that thing or couple of things 1178 01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:24,720 that we're not going to be like uncompromising on and then to 1179 01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:29,760 really bring it to make it happen, which is so inspiring 1180 01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,680 and energizing for me. So that's that's my parting 1181 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,440 reflection. I would say, you know, I think 1182 01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:40,480 we're back to this idea that distraction is out there and you 1183 01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:42,000 know, leadership is about people. 1184 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:46,840 So inside our organization, understanding, knowing, 1185 01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:52,080 respecting and even loving the people that we work with, it is 1186 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,480 possible. And actually it will create 1187 01:04:55,720 --> 01:05:00,560 beautiful, magical, one of our favorite words, magical 1188 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:05,840 unintended consequences. And so don't be afraid of it as 1189 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,920 leaders, lean into it where you can. 1190 01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,160 You, I just watched you, Jonathan, when you said that, 1191 01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,440 that some of the discussion went into your heart today. 1192 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:17,960 And when you said that you smiled. 1193 01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,640 And one thing that I've learned is when I used, when I started 1194 01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:25,120 using the word love in front of the organization, you can see 1195 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,200 the smiles people just when they hear the word they, they smile. 1196 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,120 And I thought. It's a powerful, powerful word. 1197 01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:36,200 So just to my thing is like I talk about that uncompromising 1198 01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:39,600 commitment. I think that to have an 1199 01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:44,360 uncompromising commitment to loving your people is, you know, 1200 01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:45,920 you said, what's the secret sauce? 1201 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,920 That's the secret sauce. And most people are afraid to go 1202 01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,040 there. They're afraid to talk about it 1203 01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:54,320 and I, I always tell them it's not a romantic love, it's 1204 01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:58,360 caring, it's caring, it's nurturing, It's, it's bringing 1205 01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,640 somebody into your office and saying, you know, you, you did 1206 01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:06,960 something really bad, but I, I love you so much that I don't 1207 01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,920 ever want you to do that again. Don't make that mistake yet. 1208 01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:13,320 And to that person, I've seen people just completely turn 1209 01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,280 around thinking like what you cared enough about me to tell me 1210 01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:18,440 that. And now they're like on a, on a 1211 01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,840 track to, you know, to become an even better executive and a 1212 01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,880 better leader. So the, the feedback itself 1213 01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,520 framed in the overarching, I'm giving you this feedback because 1214 01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:31,600 I, because I love you and because I love you exactly. 1215 01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:36,560 So well, I, I will say, you know, we, we didn't thank God, 1216 01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:40,360 we didn't talk about AI because like, it's just like everywhere 1217 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,560 you go and it's like we just have like an hour without 1218 01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:47,520 talking about AI. But, and so not to spoil that, 1219 01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,400 but, but to end even on a, on a optimistic though, like that's 1220 01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:55,040 the one thing like AI is going to get really, really powerful. 1221 01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:58,760 It's already extremely powerful. And you know, whether you're in 1222 01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,320 the AGI camp or not, or wherever you're sit with this, like this 1223 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,120 thing is, is growing like a hockey stick and it's, it's 1224 01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,840 very, very powerful and it's going to shape the world retail 1225 01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:12,840 leadership. That's the one thing I cannot do 1226 01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,960 or will ever be able to do. It will not be able to care and 1227 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:21,120 it will not be able to love. And that is the humanity that 1228 01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,200 and that is our opportunity to seize. 1229 01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:30,480 And who better to learn from than Bob Chavez? 1230 01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,080 Thank you so much for being here on on the show. 1231 01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,920 And and Jamie, it's my wing man, my conseglier coach. 1232 01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:42,360 Thank you, guys. Thank you, Bob.