1 00:00:15,010 --> 00:00:17,970 Welcome. I'm Jonathan Kirschner, and we 2 00:00:17,970 --> 00:00:21,450 are on a podcast about leadership. 3 00:00:21,650 --> 00:00:25,690 And today we have the pleasure of having John Toohey on the 4 00:00:25,690 --> 00:00:27,530 podcast. Thank you, John, so much for 5 00:00:27,530 --> 00:00:28,650 coming down. You're welcome. 6 00:00:28,890 --> 00:00:31,090 You're welcome, John. All right, so, so John Toohey. 7 00:00:31,290 --> 00:00:34,570 I mean, I'm sure most know of John Toohey, but in case you 8 00:00:34,570 --> 00:00:43,240 don't, John is an extraordinary executive search partner at 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:50,240 Trilogy Search and, and, and basically you need a 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:58,320 CEOACFOACHRO or anybody in that stack of HR you go to John. 11 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:04,879 And so I am particularly excited to just first and foremost hang 12 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,160 out with somebody I really enjoy being with. 13 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:13,920 And, and secondarily to mine your brain and really to learn 14 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,400 from you and, and for our audience to learn from the 15 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,640 incredible amount of experiences you have in this space. 16 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,200 Some may even call you this Sea Suite Whisperer. 17 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:29,680 I don't know if you know that. Not many, but. 18 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,360 So I mean, John, you can just just bring us up to speed like 19 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,440 how did you get to where you are right now? 20 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,560 Obviously, I'm going to ask you about trilogy and then name 21 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,120 trilogy and why would you call your incredible search firm 22 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,920 trilogy, But just give bring me on the journey to how you got to 23 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,840 where you are. OK, well the the the short 24 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,720 version is. That short version. 25 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,880 I ran an executive search room with two partners for 25 years 26 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:03,840 called Salvas and Stetson Group and shared some similarities 27 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,640 with Trilogy, but was much more of a generalist firm. 28 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:12,000 And about two years ago my partners retired and we 29 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,840 dissolved the firm and it seemed dissingenuous to keep the names 30 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,680 without them being involved. So I started Trilogy Talent 31 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,720 Advisors, which is a firm that does specialize particularly in, 32 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,720 in senior financial officer and senior human resources officer 33 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,560 balls. And you, you asked about, you 34 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,840 know, how the name came about. You know, beyond the fact that 35 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,720 all the good names were taken, you know, Trilogy really focuses 36 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,520 on the fact that our belief is that there are three enterprise 37 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,360 leaders in an organization, the CEO, the CFO and the CHRO. 38 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,600 And when that Trilogy is working well together, that's really 39 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,200 what drives business performance, shareholder value 40 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,880 and great experiences for employees and engaged cultures. 41 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:59,400 So that's that's our thesis and we only work really more on the 42 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,280 CFO and the CHRO side in support of the CE OS vision. 43 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:06,320 I love that. So you have like the sort of the 44 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:14,080 vision, the resources that that can make that vision happen and 45 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,960 ensure that it's sustainable. And then the human resources, 46 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,960 well that that that work with those financial resources. 47 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,440 Absolutely, the financial capital and the human capital. 48 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,080 Yeah. So the financial government, 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:33,200 human capital and you need those three things working I I presume 50 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,840 in a somewhat symbiotic synergistic way and that and 51 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,280 when you see that happening. That when I see that team 52 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,320 functioning well, effectively, I know that's a winner of a 53 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,160 company. I mean, everybody else on that 54 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,560 senior management team has an allegiance somewhere else in an 55 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,480 organization. But we find that those leaders, 56 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,440 the CEO, the CFO and the Cho, are the ones who are 57 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,520 concentrating on the enterprise most closely. 58 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,040 So I'm, yeah, as, as you know, and yeah, I'm a business 59 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:07,000 psychologist and my primary, you know, passion is helping leaders 60 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,200 just, like activate and grow their potential through 61 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,120 leadership development and talent development. 62 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,920 And so I'm coaching, We're designing leadership development 63 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,000 programs. We're doing some team coaching. 64 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:26,760 Love that work. Tiring, but very fulfilling. 65 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,560 Give us like, what's a day in the life of John Tuing? 66 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,360 Tell us about your role. Like what does it mean to find 67 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:43,920 the very best CHROCFOCEO? If you like puzzles you, you 68 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,040 would like executive search, there is it's you, you have to 69 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,200 have a problem solving orientation and people come to 70 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,640 you, organizations come to you when they have a need, right? 71 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,200 They have a, a problem they're trying to solve. 72 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,160 And part of that solution will be the placement of one of these 73 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,440 senior executives. So really kind of understanding 74 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,440 what you know, what the challenges are within an 75 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,480 organization doing a deep dive, an assessment of, of what's 76 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,040 required and a new leader to be effective, both in terms of what 77 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,640 they bring to the organization that the organization lacks and 78 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,440 how they conduct themselves in a way that the organization can, 79 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,360 can integrate them into the way that they work. 80 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,840 So it, it is a bit of a puzzle in terms of really understanding 81 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,360 what the need is initially. And then it's a bigger puzzle 82 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,160 and a bit of a bit of an adventure to go out and find 83 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,960 that person in the market. Of all the folks out there who 84 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,720 may be available and or interested in the role, who are 85 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,960 the who's the one who you feel is best suited for? 86 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:51,720 It so you have to as as as as they say, behavior is a function 87 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,280 of the person and the environment. 88 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:02,080 So that that's a famous quote by Kurt Lewin, the German American 89 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,400 psychologist. So if I want to find a great 90 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,440 leader that sort of embodies the target behaviors that we're 91 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:14,320 looking for, you know, it's, it's not enough to just find 92 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,160 that unique, amazing All Star individual. 93 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,880 They also have to know, they also have to be able to fit into 94 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,360 that unique environment. Or you could have a situation, I 95 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,800 imagine, imagine you've seen this, you know, where somebody 96 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,200 excellent comes into an environment and it's just like 97 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,760 sort of like organ rejection, like the system just kind of 98 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,720 kicks the person out even though they're an amazing individual. 99 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,440 Right, absolutely. And I think that that that's 100 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:55,920 been an evolving kind of issue or it's been an evolving, I 101 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,840 don't know what the right word would be, but, but organizations 102 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:01,400 handled that differently today than they did 20 years ago where 103 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,800 they where it was very specifically focused on what 104 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,240 skill sets, what experiences does this person bring to the 105 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:09,560 table. And we don't really care how 106 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,320 they get there. Well, after one or two really 107 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,400 talented people flame out in your organization, you start to 108 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,640 focus on how they get to their results as much as what results 109 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,040 that they bring to the table. And does the way they get to the 110 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,440 results, will that be tolerated by the culture that they're 111 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,440 coming into? So what works at Coke doesn't 112 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,320 necessarily work at Pepsi. And so there there's got to be 113 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,760 give and take on both sides of the equation. 114 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,440 But I would say Jonathan, really kind of advances in the field of 115 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,680 executive coaching and assessment and more acceptance 116 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,640 of assessment being part of the selection process has really 117 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,320 improved some of those issues over the last 10 to 15 years. 118 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,800 And really I, I, I think that it's still a challenge. 119 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,440 And, you know, I think a lot of organizations go out there 120 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:07,440 looking for a change agent. And when that person comes into 121 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,200 the organization, there is a kind of a, a bit of a cold water 122 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,480 splashed on them because they're not ready for the change that 123 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,040 they bring to the table. So, so really it is a there, 124 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:19,880 there's got to be give and take on both sides. 125 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,240 And, and I think you're right, you know, that behavior that, 126 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,440 that not, not individual behavior, but organizational 127 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,760 behavior. Finding that that match there in 128 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,000 a way that not that this person's going to come in and 129 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,400 act exactly like we act, but they're going to act in a matter 130 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,640 that we can adapt to and accept and and be invigorated by the 131 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,039 change that they bring to the table. 132 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,960 OK, So that sparks a question for me, like do you ever find 133 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,400 yourself in a situation where it's some where the the 134 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,240 requirements for the searches we want, we need a change agent, 135 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,720 right, Right. We need somebody who can just 136 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:01,760 really help us like disrupt our industry or move at a different 137 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,920 pace. But the institution itself isn't 138 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,520 ready for that. So that there's like the request 139 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,840 and this vision for what we need, but then the person, then 140 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,520 you go and find that person, bring them in and then it just 141 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,560 doesn't work. Is that does that happen? 142 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,400 And and then OK, how do you mitigate that risk? 143 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:30,680 I think not to be over simplistic, but there is a bit 144 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:34,280 of a beginning of the process with the with the organization 145 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,440 saying, you know, be careful what you ask for because you 146 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,400 will surely get it right. So, so let's make sure you 147 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,800 understand how the organization may need to change to make this 148 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:52,720 person effective and what support are you going to give 149 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,600 this leader when they come into the organization So they have an 150 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,280 understanding of what the cultural norms are, what's 151 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,240 taboo, how they might go out about most effectively 152 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,520 introducing change within the organization. 153 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:13,120 Like I have clients that don't give you a warm up lap right? 154 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,440 That they want to see points put on the board, in short. 155 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,000 Order like out of the gates. Out of the gates, first three to 156 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,960 six months, let's start to see production production in 157 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,160 measurable ways. I have other clients who would 158 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:31,520 be appalled if a new leader suggested any major changes 159 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:37,000 before they hit their first year anniversary because they hadn't 160 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,920 found through experience that the complexity of the 161 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:49,080 organization is kind of is discovered in in stages and the 162 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,760 danger time they find for new leaders coming into their 163 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,680 organization or not. It's not months 0 through 6, 164 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:57,040 it's months 6 through 12. Oh, interesting. 165 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,040 Where the the new leader starts to believe that they understand 166 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,560 how things work and they really don't quite understand how 167 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:07,280 things work yet. So when they start to suggest 168 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,280 fairly significant changes and decision making or 169 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,720 organizational structure in that 6 to 12 month period, they often 170 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,240 run into both resistance and danger. 171 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,200 Because they haven't. They don't really understand. 172 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,600 They understand on a surface level, but they don't understand 173 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,080 the unintended consequences. That's fascinating because you 174 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,280 know, there's this famous book, The 1st 90 Days by Michael 175 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,600 Watkins and and you know, he would say like, look, that's 176 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,280 first 90 days or three months in the job. 177 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,880 It's all about developing relationships, listening, 178 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,880 understanding, maybe go for some quick wins, but don't try to do 179 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,400 anything like big right That, that that's a huge trap. 180 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:52,320 But you're saying that actually in your experience, it's well 181 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,200 obviously the first 90 days or six months, but in that you're 182 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,880 distinguishing even between the first six months and the six to 183 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:03,960 12 month time frame, which is actually another vulnerable 184 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,640 point where you think you understand it, but you don't 185 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,200 like you understand it's just A at a certain level. 186 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,360 It's organizationally dependent. I mean, that is 1 particular 187 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,280 client that I have that you know that where that's a particular 188 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,040 danger. But I think most organizations 189 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,280 probably fit into the that first 90 right. 190 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,440 You know, let's go out, let's do our assessment along the way, 191 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,880 let's pick up the low hanging fruit to start to establish 192 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,240 credibility in the organization that we can get things done. 193 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,760 And then once we've kind of done a meaningful, sincere kind of 194 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,360 assessment of of current state, then then we start to make, you 195 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,440 know, more significant suggestions around change. 196 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:47,480 Got it. I, I, I am very curious about 197 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:53,080 this CHRO role in particular like the Chief Human Resource 198 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,440 officer. I mean, you've been doing this 199 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,760 for, for a bit. Have you seen any changes in 200 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,200 like how is that role evolved if it has it? 201 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,560 All you know is it is it always just been the same or like do 202 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:12,560 you see this thing, you know, morphing and and changing over 203 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:17,240 time? Right, the latter. 204 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,640 I've seen it Morphin change over time, but really from a 205 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:28,600 catalytic event standpoint, much more so over the last five years 206 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:33,760 than the previous 50. So like if you look at you know, 207 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,480 I think you know, between like 1500 and 1900, life expectancy 208 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,240 increased by five years went from like, I don't know, 35 to 209 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,640 40 years old over a period of 500 years. 210 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,200 Over the last 100 years, it's it's doubled, right? 211 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,880 That's actually fascinating. To think about. 212 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:58,240 So, you know, with the advent of modern science and modern 213 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,320 medicine, you know, we've been able to, to decrease infant 214 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,680 mortality, we've been able to extend people's lives. 215 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,800 And, but the Catholic event is kind of, you know, the the 216 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,760 advent of modern medicine and science. 217 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:21,360 Well, I think, you know, between let's say 1950 and 2020, you 218 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,240 would see incremental adjustments in the way that the 219 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,440 HR function was perceived by senior management, the role that 220 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,400 it played in an organization. And the pandemic really was a 221 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:40,280 catalytic event for both increasing the the the stature 222 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:46,840 of the function and the recognition, particularly by 223 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,360 CEOs and boards of what the impact of a good senior HR 224 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,840 leader can have on a company. So there were incremental gains 225 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,360 in the interim. But you know, I think there was 226 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,360 AI forget. I think it was a Fortune article 227 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,080 in the 90s, a little bit of a controversial do we really need 228 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:02,760 HR? Should we blow it up? 229 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,360 And there's all this talk about seat at the table. 230 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,040 Or interesting. HR needs a seat at the senior 231 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,400 management table. So this was like the zeitgeist 232 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,560 of of the 90s. Of the 90's, the 80s, nineties, 233 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,520 you know, when we were trying. To do we really need this role? 234 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,680 Do we need the role? Is it really a, a, a 235 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,840 professional discipline? And you know, in my mind, it 236 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,560 always has been a professional discipline. 237 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,320 And for those organizations that didn't, you know, really kind of 238 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,200 lean into their HR leaders, they, they were, you know, they 239 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,040 were working at a deficit, but there was a struggle for 240 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,240 credibility. And in the same way that there 241 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,440 may have been a struggle for credibility with the CFO, but 242 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,720 that happened the generation before the struggle for 243 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,280 credibility or this desire for increased credibility from the 244 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,320 HR function. But that, that, you know, there 245 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,200 there was some version of that conversation that would pop up 246 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,120 over that 2025 year period, you know, in the from the 90s 247 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,200 through to the more recent past. You, you know, are we getting 248 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,120 that seat at the table? Are we even perceived as a 249 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,880 strategic or an administrative function? 250 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,760 You know, we all had our models, David Olga, we got a model. 251 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,480 You know, there, there, there. There was a lot of work being 252 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,280 done on the subject. And then, you know, February, 253 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:24,800 March of 2020 come along and all of a sudden your people are gone 254 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,200 from an office building or you have to completely change the 255 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,000 way you do work. And you have to respond to it in 256 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,560 a way where your HR leader really becomes kind of your 257 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,560 chief change officer. And it's orchestrating a lot of 258 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,760 the decisions and a lot around, around how we're going to 259 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,760 support people around how initially we, we may need to 260 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,000 separate folks, but we want to be able to bring them back. 261 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,480 Or they're going to have to work in a completely different way 262 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,640 than we've expected them to work for their entire career. 263 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:55,480 And our people are going to have to lead them in a different way 264 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,240 as a result. So a lot of learning on the fly 265 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:05,119 and a lot of failure both by HR leaders and CEOs in, in that 266 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,079 time frame. But I think, you know, a, a 267 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:15,599 final kind of, you know, switch flipping around, yes, you know, 268 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:20,079 your human resources officer is a is as important as the other 269 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:21,880 senior leaders on the senior management team. 270 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,560 Wow. That's it's really interesting 271 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:30,880 to think of how COVID was this turning point in in many ways. 272 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,560 Yeah, so pre COVID you have, I mean, HR is, is, you know, 273 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,360 common benefits, talent management, talent development, 274 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:45,360 you know, succession planning, workforce management, payroll, 275 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,520 right, right. HHR tech systems. 276 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,760 But you know, you can have all that in place and have a well 277 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,800 oiled machine and, and be supporting the organization, but 278 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,040 then all of a sudden everything just stops. 279 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,120 We have to reorient to like, what's it mean to work when we 280 00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:11,320 can't see each other in the office, setting policies in 281 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,600 place to create governance around how we work and, and 282 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,760 safety. And then all of a sudden you 283 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:26,440 have people, you know, going off to Costa Rica and, and, and, and 284 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,520 you know, I'm up, open my laptop here and go to work and, and Oh 285 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,000 my God, do whatever you want. Just please stay with us because 286 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,160 there's the word for talent is, is greater than anything we've 287 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:41,560 ever seen. And so we go from that to then 288 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,200 coming back to the office and and then having to get everybody 289 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:53,640 back after they're sort of, you know, comfortable not being in 290 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,080 traffic and having the incredible flexibility they've 291 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:02,680 had to. Now this this like new phase, 292 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,760 arguably where AI has come into the picture and we have to think 293 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,720 about not just people, but I mean, down the road and and in 294 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,440 the foreseeable future robots. But even now, like what, what 295 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:22,240 role does AI play in all this? So, so HR has gone from this, 296 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,440 you know, somewhat stable, important role. 297 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,840 I would argue always at the table that I wasn't doing this 298 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:36,880 in the 90s to being like Paramount right to, to the 299 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,640 organization's strategy to the extent that change is, is, is 300 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,840 really important and, and, and and prominent in the strategy. 301 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,080 So it's, it's incredible. So. 302 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,960 So let me about AI, you know, you, you, you brought it up and 303 00:19:53,960 --> 00:20:00,760 and so related to two things about AI, one related to the. 304 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:09,720 Kind of the, the, the rise of the CHRO is that they're, 305 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,880 they're, they're, they're very much leading the conversation 306 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,000 around AI in a lot of the organizations that are kind of, 307 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,160 you know, taking the first steps or second or third steps. 308 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:21,120 And there's two reasons for that. 309 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,400 One, I think, I think there is more credibility for the 310 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,320 function and the leadership. The functions have been gained 311 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,160 over the last five years. The second thing is AI loves 312 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,000 data. You know, I mean, that's what AI 313 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,600 loves. And HR has the most data in the 314 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,280 company and you know, all the people data reside there. 315 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,560 So you know, it's, it's a, it's a natural spot for. 316 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,600 And you know, when you think about how AI is going to change 317 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,600 the way an organization works, it's going to change the way 318 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,400 it's going to change people's jobs. 319 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,040 It's going to change where they're done, how they're done, 320 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,040 who does it. So all those issues that are 321 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,080 that are kind of intrinsic to the function are intrinsic to a 322 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,200 company's adoption of an AI strategy, both in terms of what 323 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,240 do we know about our company, where does that data reside and 324 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:14,800 how's it going to change our company? 325 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,200 It's going to mostly change the way we interact with each other, 326 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,720 the way that our our our jobs are done and the way we interact 327 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,040 with customers. So I mean, you can make a very 328 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:31,400 strong argument that, that the CHRO aside from the CEO and you 329 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,040 know, CFO very important, but but CHRO is really like one of 330 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,040 the most, if not the most important C level role. 331 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,520 Like it's, it's, it's overwhelming to think about the 332 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:51,000 amount of change that rests on the shoulders of, of of the 333 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,400 CHRO. Do you see, are you seeing like 334 00:21:54,400 --> 00:22:01,480 burnout or would it, I mean, are there any like hazards to that 335 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,320 role right now that you're seeing that are that are more 336 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,320 pronounced than say in their, you know, early 2000s or the 337 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,680 90s? I think burnout's a real thing 338 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,080 for, for all of us, but I do know a number of, you know, HR 339 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:24,040 leaders who retired early after the, the, the, the crisis period 340 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,360 of the pandemic was over because it was just so hard. 341 00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,160 These folks were working 24/7 and non-stop. 342 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,520 Non-stop and always a new day, always a new challenge for. 343 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,560 Committees, safety, this, what we're going to do here. 344 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,240 What's our policy here? I mean, if you, if you're 345 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,960 working for Amazon or if you're working for, you know, another 346 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,520 warehousing distribution company and you have your first 347 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,840 experience around, well, what do we do when there's an exposure 348 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,040 in a warehouse? You know, how do we clean that 349 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:53,640 place? How do we do contact tracing? 350 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,320 I mean, these are things that are, you know, they don't seem 351 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,800 overly strategic, but they are incredibly important to the 352 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,440 functioning of the organization. And nobody knew how to do it. 353 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,120 So you were learning on the fly and leadership and all of your 354 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:10,280 associates, you know, the partners working with you, we're 355 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,920 counting on you to have an answer for that. 356 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:21,680 So that that after 2436 months of that burnout was a is a real 357 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,440 thing still. But certainly in that 2223 358 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,280 period, I would say some leaders who maybe had felt they had five 359 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,200 to seven years left in their career decided, you know, that's 360 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:32,760 enough. I've done my bit for King and 361 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,160 Country and it's time for me to do other things with. 362 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,840 My life. OK, but I mean, I'm curious, you 363 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,560 know? I mean, you're getting calls 364 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,280 daily, you know, help me find a CHRO. 365 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,360 Imagine you're getting a call from, from a board or board 366 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:53,320 member. You know, we're doing a CHRO 367 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,240 search. What are they asking for right 368 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,960 now? Like what are the, what are the 369 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:03,680 types of, you know, leadership skills and, and competencies 370 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,920 that you're seeing? I mean, I'm sure every situation 371 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,160 is different, but you know, are there any like common 372 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,360 denominators that you're you're seeing? 373 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,800 Let let me, let me talk about boards and let me talk about 374 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,840 CEOs because I think there's a difference between the two. 375 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:22,680 I think the board perspective is still more traditional than the 376 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,640 CE OS perspective is. So compliance risk more the 377 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,520 administrative operational efficiency component of the role 378 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,760 is probably a little bit more where you'll find your boards 379 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,120 focused. You, you know, there, there, 380 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:41,480 there's, there are two areas where I think ACHRO has the most 381 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,640 interaction with the board. One is around executive 382 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,800 compensation and the other is around succession, right. 383 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:54,600 So, so the succession piece is requiring more strategic input 384 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,880 than previous, but the comp piece still feels to me a little 385 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,160 bit more the traditional administrative excellence role 386 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,320 that a, a leader, HR leader plays. 387 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,120 And I think that, you know, boards focus on governance and 388 00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,640 risk management. I still think they see HR in 389 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,240 that risk management category more than in the strategic 390 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:22,600 visioning category, where I think the CEOs see them as 391 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:29,680 playing equally valuable roles in both those domains where and 392 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:35,280 today, post pandemic, we're going to, you know, maybe a 393 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,160 little bit more of an economic slowdown in the country where 394 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,840 organizations are going through these transformation efforts 395 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,120 right now. You know, HR plays both a 396 00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:47,480 strategic and a tactical role in, in, in those conversations 397 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,960 where, yes, we need to create operational efficiency in the 398 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,160 organization. We need to make sure we're, 399 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,040 we're hitting on the margin so that we do we're eliminating 400 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,240 redundancy, but not it's not at the cost of future growth. 401 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:06,240 So that ability to kind of both have the the talent focus and 402 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,560 the efficiency focus in mind at the same time is that's the art 403 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,920 of being a Chr right now is to be able to deal with the issues 404 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,840 of the present and understand that we're, you know, we need to 405 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,840 become more effective in what we do today. 406 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,760 But we can't do it in a way that we are sacrificing our ability 407 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,400 to innovate, grow and succeed in the future. 408 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:33,000 And that really is a talent management kind of question, 409 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,080 talent management puzzle that that leaders in the human 410 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,760 capital where I'm trying to solve. 411 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,160 So a great, a great Chr needs to be living sort of in the present 412 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:47,200 and, and, and and managing sort of the day-to-day and, and, and 413 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,600 the stabilization, but also focused on like what's going to 414 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,640 get us right into the future. And and so you, you mentioned 415 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,280 it, you know, as far as the future, talent management really 416 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,720 plays a critical role. Did you do you know, maybe just 417 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,720 help us understand what work you do? 418 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,120 And I mean, you're placing heads of talent as well, yes. 419 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,640 And OK. And and so I mean, what is that 420 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,880 relationship look like? Chro and and talent management, 421 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,800 I presume, just in the same way that, you know, in the Trilogy 422 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,400 model, you have to have this, you know, incredible synergy 423 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:27,160 between the CEOCFOCHRO, you also have to have that great, you 424 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,240 know, bilateral relationship between talent management and 425 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,400 HR. I, I think HR is becoming talent 426 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,080 management really is what it is. You know, if you think about 427 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,560 kind of the, the transformational efforts that 428 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,280 are underway right now, I think what you're going to see is I, I 429 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,920 wouldn't say it's going to exit the function, but but that 430 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:55,680 efficiency, HR service delivery, employer relations, traditional 431 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,280 generalist responsibility than HR function has is going to be 432 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,040 automated. That's where AI is really going 433 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:08,320 to have the most impact on, on the HR function in terms of the 434 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:14,040 way HR works is that those repeatable tasks will be taken 435 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,640 out of people's hands and they'll be put into the hands of 436 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,760 agents or robots or whatever you want to call them. 437 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,560 So those Tier 0, Tier 1, Tier 2 responses that an HR 438 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,600 organization is, you know, working with from an employee 439 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:34,080 relations standpoint primarily will be done by intelligences 440 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,240 that aren't human right. And that leaves really the 441 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,840 talent piece of it that so your, your, your HR business partner, 442 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,680 you know, who used to be your HR journalist, you know, that 443 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,400 person's going to be the right hand from a talent standpoint to 444 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,320 a general manager at some level in the organization. 445 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,120 It could be the CEO at the highest level, it could be a 446 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,400 business unit leader, it could be a plant leader, right. 447 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,000 So that HR leader that they have is really going to be focused on 448 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,880 how are we getting the most out of the people that we have? 449 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,040 What are the organizational needs that we're going to have 450 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,880 in the future that we need to train up our people to be able 451 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,800 to do or bring in new people to do? 452 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,400 And how are we continuing to provide those, those associates 453 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,840 are going to be important to the the future of the organization 454 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,880 with opportunities to develop their own skills and grow their 455 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,520 careers. And that so, so I I'm seeing 456 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,360 kind of a merging of talent management in HR in that regard 457 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,480 as the more administrative, more repeatable activity in the 458 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,840 function kind of gets pulled out of the function. 459 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,080 That's interesting. I mean it that's, you know, if 460 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:48,200 you think about HR as a, as a pizza with eight slices, those 461 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,640 aspects of HR that are are more transactional, repeatable, 462 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,560 routine. Those are going to be the first 463 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,960 things that get right replaced by tech. 464 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,280 And, and it sounds like what what is left largely would be 465 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,960 talent management, talent development, leadership 466 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:09,280 development, succession. Yes, or design. 467 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,080 Or and so, and then there's implications presumably then for 468 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,720 the HR business partner, which from a general, if you think of 469 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,280 them as a generalist, they have all the pieces of the pizza, but 470 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,560 that would be shrinking as well. So they become more of like a 471 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,720 talent development or talent partner as opposed to a talent 472 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,720 partner. Yeah, that's a great way to put 473 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,080 it. Yeah, that's fascinating. 474 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,280 And I'm actually, we're actually seeing some of that natural 475 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,560 evolution. I don't know if it's being 476 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,720 driven through intentional strategy and as much as it's 477 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,880 just evolving to that, to that place, but it's really 478 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,720 interesting. It's happening regardless of 479 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,600 whether it's in, you know, consciously being guided or not. 480 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,760 I think the challenge for the function and not just HR but 481 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:01,800 finance is that how are we going to get new people into our 482 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,520 companies in those functions? Because when you think about 483 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,400 what AI is good at today, a, it's good at analysis, it's good 484 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,560 at data, it's good at analysis, and it's good at those 485 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,360 repeatable tasks. Well, those that analysis, those 486 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,800 repeatable tasks are the way we used to get new accounting grads 487 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,960 and new HR grads into our companies as employee relations 488 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,440 reps, as financial analysts. And those rules are going away. 489 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,040 And those rules are going away today, right? 490 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,800 So like I think we're really at the tip of the iceberg about, 491 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,640 you know, how AI is going to disrupt employment in the 492 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,240 workforce in, in, in, in this country and you know, beyond 493 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,080 this country. But we are very, very much on at 494 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,840 the beginning stages of that. And we are leveraging those 495 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:58,880 things that AI is good at today without having to completely 496 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:04,280 change the way the system works. So it's easier to do that by 497 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,240 taking away financial analyst jobs and let AI do those tasks. 498 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,000 But the problem is that, and I, I heard, I don't know who I can 499 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,120 attribute this to, but you know, we're never no longer working 500 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,240 on, on a pyramid from an employment standpoint. 501 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,480 We're, we're, we're kind of more in a diamond. 502 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:25,120 So, so it used to be, you know, the, the, the greatest amount of 503 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,400 hiring, at least on a professional level happen at the 504 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,760 at the entry level and then you know, and. 505 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,280 Then it gets narrow and narrow as you go. 506 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,640 Well, now it starts now it, it could be, it could be narrow at 507 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,680 the at the bottom, that's your state. 508 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,640 And then it's going to expand and then contract again. 509 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,240 So because we need folks at that mid management level where it's, 510 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,640 you know, it gets messy for AI to do some of that work where it 511 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,600 is. The edges are not as sharp. 512 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:56,200 They're a little rounder, you know, And so, but how do we get 513 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,800 people prepared for those jobs if the roles that we used to 514 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,640 hire them in are are being eroded by AI today? 515 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,600 Wow. That I mean, well, I know 516 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,200 there's certainly a trend with entry level jobs and, and I mean 517 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,520 you, you see articles about this all the time and why it'd be 518 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,320 tough to be a, you know, a senior and. 519 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,000 It's tough to be a new college graduate right now. 520 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,280 That's that's for sure. Yeah. 521 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:22,440 You know, changing very fast. Your, your previous guest, you 522 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,480 know, his CEO was saying we're not hiring any more coders, 523 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,160 right? So because AI can do it, right? 524 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,640 So, so the, and even those jobs we were pushing kids into less 525 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,120 than five years ago are now becoming much more commodities 526 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,120 and much more, you know, much less critical to have people 527 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,440 doing that work. Well, that presents its own 528 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,240 interesting puzzle for us to solve. 529 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:55,360 But that that clearly so. So from pyramid to diamond with 530 00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:00,600 the natural problem being like, if it starts to grow here, you 531 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,000 need people to come in to grow it at the middle. 532 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,199 So how do you know, how does that middle grow if we don't, if 533 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:12,000 we have a very limited supply at the tip? 534 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,679 I, I, I do want to, you know, as we're, as we're getting towards 535 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:23,639 the end of our time to just pull out our respective crystal balls 536 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:29,679 for a moment and just think about, you know, this Chr role, 537 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:37,040 which is becoming increasingly more important for the 538 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:42,400 organization, not just in terms of stabilizing, but in terms of 539 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:48,400 the like, go forward strategy and, and the ability to 540 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,960 successfully navigate continuous change. 541 00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:01,520 What advice would you give somebody who wants to be a CHRO 542 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,000 three years from now? You know, I want to be a Cho 543 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,400 three years from now. I'm, I'm going to CHRO school. 544 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,640 What advice would you give that individual? 545 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:23,920 Yeah, question. I, I think it would be take a 546 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,040 chance to be the courageous voice in the room, you know, be 547 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:31,160 that person who is giving feedback that maybe others on 548 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,840 the senior management team are not. 549 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,440 And a lot of that's going to be around leadership behavior. 550 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:42,000 So, you know, to a certain extent, I think that the Chr 551 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,600 plays a role of the de facto, de facto executive coach on a 552 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,920 senior management team. Lean into that, lean into the 553 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:54,760 fact that you do get to a certain extent some level of of 554 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,120 permission to play that role. But push the end envelope a 555 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,080 little bit on it because in times of in challenging times in 556 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:09,680 particular, often leaders kind of expose their, their, their, 557 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:11,920 their worser natures, if you will. 558 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,640 And people remember that forever. 559 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:23,400 So, you know, having a leader who has the ability to call out 560 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,360 the management team when they are not living the values of the 561 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,440 organization. And I think we had a, we had a 562 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,200 piece that came up in our CHRO panel at the Air Consulting 563 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:40,080 Summit a few weeks ago around, you know, and, and what I saw 564 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,120 there was a difference between culture and values, right? 565 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,960 And, and, and culture is cultures are what they are. 566 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,640 But, but, but, but when we lose sight of our values, that's when 567 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,160 I think, you know, organizations get into a lot of trouble. 568 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,680 And I think the, the CHRO, you know, has the ability to play 569 00:36:54,680 --> 00:37:02,440 that courageous voice and, and, but there are, there are, there 570 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,320 are pluses and minuses to that. You know, you are exposing 571 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,400 yourself in a way that you know your other leaders in the 572 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,240 organization aren't expected to and there can be a negative 573 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:16,560 ramification. I would say if that negative 574 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,560 ramification comes to pass then that company wasn't for you 575 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,600 anyway and you'll be a Chr of somewhere else. 576 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,280 That itself I think is, I mean, I think so I think there's two 577 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,280 pieces of advice. It's, it's 1, you know, take 578 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,400 that risk. Bring that courageous voice. 579 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,320 But also, you know, if if it doesn't work out, then you know, 580 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,680 don't, don't take that personally per SE. 581 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,920 Like, that's probably a sign that. 582 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:46,480 It's probably a sign that you will more fully realize your 583 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:47,920 potential as a leader somewhere else. 584 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,560 Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think it, it, you know, coming full 585 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:56,440 circle, you know, and I, I'm, I'm here today as podcaster and 586 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,360 I've talked about my, my role as a, as a passionate talent 587 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,600 developer and, and, and leadership consultant and 588 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,520 executive coach. But I'm also CEO. 589 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:13,720 And there is nothing more valuable to ACEO than when 590 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,800 somebody on the team raises their hand and says I disagree 591 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:25,680 or yes. And it, it, you know, finessing 592 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,280 it is, is, can be important how, how it's packaged and, and, and 593 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,280 obviously you want to have a good trusting relationship with 594 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,520 the person that's about to disagree with you. 595 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:43,440 But that is so, so valuable when I think about the CEOs that I 596 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:49,640 work with and their organizational health, the 597 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:56,920 partnership between the CHRO and the CEO is highly correlated 598 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:03,080 with the effectiveness of that CE OS leadership impact. 599 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,560 But also I would even go as far as saying the, the, the, the 600 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,680 executive team's effectiveness and the organizational 601 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,800 performance. And, and so it's, it's critical 602 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,400 and I, you know, I think that to have that courageous voice and 603 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,960 to manifest that effectively, you really do need to have that 604 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,760 really solid relationship with the CEO. 605 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,600 And I guess from a trilogy standpoint, CEOCFOCHRO, right, 606 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,320 We have to have all three. We'll do the CFO chapter at 607 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,920 another time. CFO chapter will be Part 2. 608 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,440 Well, John, I appreciate so much you being on the podcast. 609 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,560 Any like you know, we covered a lot of ground here. 610 00:39:52,760 --> 00:40:00,000 Any final advice or reflections you have for our audience on 611 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,520 this topic of leadership, talent identification? 612 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,000 And you know, we we talked a lot about CHROS. 613 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,960 I I think you, you, you know, if just one more piece of advice 614 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:20,720 would be, yeah, you know, the the CHRO role has has been 615 00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:23,760 elevated, really is seen as a business function. 616 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,800 So it's incumbent on on you in that kind of finishing stage of 617 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,680 your career aspiring to that type of role to be become more 618 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,680 adept from a business standpoint. 619 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,200 So whether that's, you know, taking rotational assignment, 620 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:46,360 whether that's, you know, finding the right external coach 621 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,280 or partner in that regard, somebody from an air or or maybe 622 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,920 some more functional or technical training, you know, 623 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,520 make sure that you're ready to participate fully in that 624 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:01,320 business conversation. So in addition to all the other 625 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,400 110 things that you have to do to get to that that level. 626 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:05,880 I love it. I love it. 627 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,360 Like take, take that seat at the table, embed yourself in the 628 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:18,000 business and be a partner and, and, and don't limit yourself to 629 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,240 sing yourself within just, you know, I just do these 8 slices 630 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:26,640 of the pizza. So a fantastic advice, John. 631 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,040 Thank you so much, John. John Toohey from Trilogy 632 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,600 partners, really fantastic to have him on a podcast about 633 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,640 leadership. And we'll look forward to that 634 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,120 part too on CFO. That that sounds fascinating. 635 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,040 Sounds good. Thank you, John. 636 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:42,440 All right.