Welcome. I'm Jonathan Kirschner, and we
are on a podcast about leadership.
And today we have the pleasure of having John Toohey on the
podcast. Thank you, John, so much for
coming down. You're welcome.
You're welcome, John. All right, so, so John Toohey.
I mean, I'm sure most know of John Toohey, but in case you
don't, John is an extraordinary executive search partner at
Trilogy Search and, and, and basically you need a
CEOACFOACHRO or anybody in that stack of HR you go to John.
And so I am particularly excited to just first and foremost hang
out with somebody I really enjoy being with.
And, and secondarily to mine your brain and really to learn
from you and, and for our audience to learn from the
incredible amount of experiences you have in this space.
Some may even call you this Sea Suite Whisperer.
I don't know if you know that. Not many, but.
So I mean, John, you can just just bring us up to speed like
how did you get to where you are right now?
Obviously, I'm going to ask you about trilogy and then name
trilogy and why would you call your incredible search firm
trilogy, But just give bring me on the journey to how you got to
where you are. OK, well the the the short
version is. That short version.
I ran an executive search room with two partners for 25 years
called Salvas and Stetson Group and shared some similarities
with Trilogy, but was much more of a generalist firm.
And about two years ago my partners retired and we
dissolved the firm and it seemed dissingenuous to keep the names
without them being involved. So I started Trilogy Talent
Advisors, which is a firm that does specialize particularly in,
in senior financial officer and senior human resources officer
balls. And you, you asked about, you
know, how the name came about. You know, beyond the fact that
all the good names were taken, you know, Trilogy really focuses
on the fact that our belief is that there are three enterprise
leaders in an organization, the CEO, the CFO and the CHRO.
And when that Trilogy is working well together, that's really
what drives business performance, shareholder value
and great experiences for employees and engaged cultures.
So that's that's our thesis and we only work really more on the
CFO and the CHRO side in support of the CE OS vision.
I love that. So you have like the sort of the
vision, the resources that that can make that vision happen and
ensure that it's sustainable. And then the human resources,
well that that that work with those financial resources.
Absolutely, the financial capital and the human capital.
Yeah. So the financial government,
human capital and you need those three things working I I presume
in a somewhat symbiotic synergistic way and that and
when you see that happening. That when I see that team
functioning well, effectively, I know that's a winner of a
company. I mean, everybody else on that
senior management team has an allegiance somewhere else in an
organization. But we find that those leaders,
the CEO, the CFO and the Cho, are the ones who are
concentrating on the enterprise most closely.
So I'm, yeah, as, as you know, and yeah, I'm a business
psychologist and my primary, you know, passion is helping leaders
just, like activate and grow their potential through
leadership development and talent development.
And so I'm coaching, We're designing leadership development
programs. We're doing some team coaching.
Love that work. Tiring, but very fulfilling.
Give us like, what's a day in the life of John Tuing?
Tell us about your role. Like what does it mean to find
the very best CHROCFOCEO? If you like puzzles you, you
would like executive search, there is it's you, you have to
have a problem solving orientation and people come to
you, organizations come to you when they have a need, right?
They have a, a problem they're trying to solve.
And part of that solution will be the placement of one of these
senior executives. So really kind of understanding
what you know, what the challenges are within an
organization doing a deep dive, an assessment of, of what's
required and a new leader to be effective, both in terms of what
they bring to the organization that the organization lacks and
how they conduct themselves in a way that the organization can,
can integrate them into the way that they work.
So it, it is a bit of a puzzle in terms of really understanding
what the need is initially. And then it's a bigger puzzle
and a bit of a bit of an adventure to go out and find
that person in the market. Of all the folks out there who
may be available and or interested in the role, who are
the who's the one who you feel is best suited for?
It so you have to as as as as they say, behavior is a function
of the person and the environment.
So that that's a famous quote by Kurt Lewin, the German American
psychologist. So if I want to find a great
leader that sort of embodies the target behaviors that we're
looking for, you know, it's, it's not enough to just find
that unique, amazing All Star individual.
They also have to know, they also have to be able to fit into
that unique environment. Or you could have a situation, I
imagine, imagine you've seen this, you know, where somebody
excellent comes into an environment and it's just like
sort of like organ rejection, like the system just kind of
kicks the person out even though they're an amazing individual.
Right, absolutely. And I think that that that's
been an evolving kind of issue or it's been an evolving, I
don't know what the right word would be, but, but organizations
handled that differently today than they did 20 years ago where
they where it was very specifically focused on what
skill sets, what experiences does this person bring to the
table. And we don't really care how
they get there. Well, after one or two really
talented people flame out in your organization, you start to
focus on how they get to their results as much as what results
that they bring to the table. And does the way they get to the
results, will that be tolerated by the culture that they're
coming into? So what works at Coke doesn't
necessarily work at Pepsi. And so there there's got to be
give and take on both sides of the equation.
But I would say Jonathan, really kind of advances in the field of
executive coaching and assessment and more acceptance
of assessment being part of the selection process has really
improved some of those issues over the last 10 to 15 years.
And really I, I, I think that it's still a challenge.
And, you know, I think a lot of organizations go out there
looking for a change agent. And when that person comes into
the organization, there is a kind of a, a bit of a cold water
splashed on them because they're not ready for the change that
they bring to the table. So, so really it is a there,
there's got to be give and take on both sides.
And, and I think you're right, you know, that behavior that,
that not, not individual behavior, but organizational
behavior. Finding that that match there in
a way that not that this person's going to come in and
act exactly like we act, but they're going to act in a matter
that we can adapt to and accept and and be invigorated by the
change that they bring to the table.
OK, So that sparks a question for me, like do you ever find
yourself in a situation where it's some where the the
requirements for the searches we want, we need a change agent,
right, Right. We need somebody who can just
really help us like disrupt our industry or move at a different
pace. But the institution itself isn't
ready for that. So that there's like the request
and this vision for what we need, but then the person, then
you go and find that person, bring them in and then it just
doesn't work. Is that does that happen?
And and then OK, how do you mitigate that risk?
I think not to be over simplistic, but there is a bit
of a beginning of the process with the with the organization
saying, you know, be careful what you ask for because you
will surely get it right. So, so let's make sure you
understand how the organization may need to change to make this
person effective and what support are you going to give
this leader when they come into the organization So they have an
understanding of what the cultural norms are, what's
taboo, how they might go out about most effectively
introducing change within the organization.
Like I have clients that don't give you a warm up lap right?
That they want to see points put on the board, in short.
Order like out of the gates. Out of the gates, first three to
six months, let's start to see production production in
measurable ways. I have other clients who would
be appalled if a new leader suggested any major changes
before they hit their first year anniversary because they hadn't
found through experience that the complexity of the
organization is kind of is discovered in in stages and the
danger time they find for new leaders coming into their
organization or not. It's not months 0 through 6,
it's months 6 through 12. Oh, interesting.
Where the the new leader starts to believe that they understand
how things work and they really don't quite understand how
things work yet. So when they start to suggest
fairly significant changes and decision making or
organizational structure in that 6 to 12 month period, they often
run into both resistance and danger.
Because they haven't. They don't really understand.
They understand on a surface level, but they don't understand
the unintended consequences. That's fascinating because you
know, there's this famous book, The 1st 90 Days by Michael
Watkins and and you know, he would say like, look, that's
first 90 days or three months in the job.
It's all about developing relationships, listening,
understanding, maybe go for some quick wins, but don't try to do
anything like big right That, that that's a huge trap.
But you're saying that actually in your experience, it's well
obviously the first 90 days or six months, but in that you're
distinguishing even between the first six months and the six to
12 month time frame, which is actually another vulnerable
point where you think you understand it, but you don't
like you understand it's just A at a certain level.
It's organizationally dependent. I mean, that is 1 particular
client that I have that you know that where that's a particular
danger. But I think most organizations
probably fit into the that first 90 right.
You know, let's go out, let's do our assessment along the way,
let's pick up the low hanging fruit to start to establish
credibility in the organization that we can get things done.
And then once we've kind of done a meaningful, sincere kind of
assessment of of current state, then then we start to make, you
know, more significant suggestions around change.
Got it. I, I, I am very curious about
this CHRO role in particular like the Chief Human Resource
officer. I mean, you've been doing this
for, for a bit. Have you seen any changes in
like how is that role evolved if it has it?
All you know is it is it always just been the same or like do
you see this thing, you know, morphing and and changing over
time? Right, the latter.
I've seen it Morphin change over time, but really from a
catalytic event standpoint, much more so over the last five years
than the previous 50. So like if you look at you know,
I think you know, between like 1500 and 1900, life expectancy
increased by five years went from like, I don't know, 35 to
40 years old over a period of 500 years.
Over the last 100 years, it's it's doubled, right?
That's actually fascinating. To think about.
So, you know, with the advent of modern science and modern
medicine, you know, we've been able to, to decrease infant
mortality, we've been able to extend people's lives.
And, but the Catholic event is kind of, you know, the the
advent of modern medicine and science.
Well, I think, you know, between let's say 1950 and 2020, you
would see incremental adjustments in the way that the
HR function was perceived by senior management, the role that
it played in an organization. And the pandemic really was a
catalytic event for both increasing the the the stature
of the function and the recognition, particularly by
CEOs and boards of what the impact of a good senior HR
leader can have on a company. So there were incremental gains
in the interim. But you know, I think there was
AI forget. I think it was a Fortune article
in the 90s, a little bit of a controversial do we really need
HR? Should we blow it up?
And there's all this talk about seat at the table.
Or interesting. HR needs a seat at the senior
management table. So this was like the zeitgeist
of of the 90s. Of the 90's, the 80s, nineties,
you know, when we were trying. To do we really need this role?
Do we need the role? Is it really a, a, a
professional discipline? And you know, in my mind, it
always has been a professional discipline.
And for those organizations that didn't, you know, really kind of
lean into their HR leaders, they, they were, you know, they
were working at a deficit, but there was a struggle for
credibility. And in the same way that there
may have been a struggle for credibility with the CFO, but
that happened the generation before the struggle for
credibility or this desire for increased credibility from the
HR function. But that, that, you know, there
there was some version of that conversation that would pop up
over that 2025 year period, you know, in the from the 90s
through to the more recent past. You, you know, are we getting
that seat at the table? Are we even perceived as a
strategic or an administrative function?
You know, we all had our models, David Olga, we got a model.
You know, there, there, there. There was a lot of work being
done on the subject. And then, you know, February,
March of 2020 come along and all of a sudden your people are gone
from an office building or you have to completely change the
way you do work. And you have to respond to it in
a way where your HR leader really becomes kind of your
chief change officer. And it's orchestrating a lot of
the decisions and a lot around, around how we're going to
support people around how initially we, we may need to
separate folks, but we want to be able to bring them back.
Or they're going to have to work in a completely different way
than we've expected them to work for their entire career.
And our people are going to have to lead them in a different way
as a result. So a lot of learning on the fly
and a lot of failure both by HR leaders and CEOs in, in that
time frame. But I think, you know, a, a
final kind of, you know, switch flipping around, yes, you know,
your human resources officer is a is as important as the other
senior leaders on the senior management team.
Wow. That's it's really interesting
to think of how COVID was this turning point in in many ways.
Yeah, so pre COVID you have, I mean, HR is, is, you know,
common benefits, talent management, talent development,
you know, succession planning, workforce management, payroll,
right, right. HHR tech systems.
But you know, you can have all that in place and have a well
oiled machine and, and be supporting the organization, but
then all of a sudden everything just stops.
We have to reorient to like, what's it mean to work when we
can't see each other in the office, setting policies in
place to create governance around how we work and, and
safety. And then all of a sudden you
have people, you know, going off to Costa Rica and, and, and, and
you know, I'm up, open my laptop here and go to work and, and Oh
my God, do whatever you want. Just please stay with us because
there's the word for talent is, is greater than anything we've
ever seen. And so we go from that to then
coming back to the office and and then having to get everybody
back after they're sort of, you know, comfortable not being in
traffic and having the incredible flexibility they've
had to. Now this this like new phase,
arguably where AI has come into the picture and we have to think
about not just people, but I mean, down the road and and in
the foreseeable future robots. But even now, like what, what
role does AI play in all this? So, so HR has gone from this,
you know, somewhat stable, important role.
I would argue always at the table that I wasn't doing this
in the 90s to being like Paramount right to, to the
organization's strategy to the extent that change is, is, is
really important and, and, and and prominent in the strategy.
So it's, it's incredible. So.
So let me about AI, you know, you, you, you brought it up and
and so related to two things about AI, one related to the.
Kind of the, the, the rise of the CHRO is that they're,
they're, they're, they're very much leading the conversation
around AI in a lot of the organizations that are kind of,
you know, taking the first steps or second or third steps.
And there's two reasons for that.
One, I think, I think there is more credibility for the
function and the leadership. The functions have been gained
over the last five years. The second thing is AI loves
data. You know, I mean, that's what AI
loves. And HR has the most data in the
company and you know, all the people data reside there.
So you know, it's, it's a, it's a natural spot for.
And you know, when you think about how AI is going to change
the way an organization works, it's going to change the way
it's going to change people's jobs.
It's going to change where they're done, how they're done,
who does it. So all those issues that are
that are kind of intrinsic to the function are intrinsic to a
company's adoption of an AI strategy, both in terms of what
do we know about our company, where does that data reside and
how's it going to change our company?
It's going to mostly change the way we interact with each other,
the way that our our our jobs are done and the way we interact
with customers. So I mean, you can make a very
strong argument that, that the CHRO aside from the CEO and you
know, CFO very important, but but CHRO is really like one of
the most, if not the most important C level role.
Like it's, it's, it's overwhelming to think about the
amount of change that rests on the shoulders of, of of the
CHRO. Do you see, are you seeing like
burnout or would it, I mean, are there any like hazards to that
role right now that you're seeing that are that are more
pronounced than say in their, you know, early 2000s or the
90s? I think burnout's a real thing
for, for all of us, but I do know a number of, you know, HR
leaders who retired early after the, the, the, the crisis period
of the pandemic was over because it was just so hard.
These folks were working 24/7 and non-stop.
Non-stop and always a new day, always a new challenge for.
Committees, safety, this, what we're going to do here.
What's our policy here? I mean, if you, if you're
working for Amazon or if you're working for, you know, another
warehousing distribution company and you have your first
experience around, well, what do we do when there's an exposure
in a warehouse? You know, how do we clean that
place? How do we do contact tracing?
I mean, these are things that are, you know, they don't seem
overly strategic, but they are incredibly important to the
functioning of the organization. And nobody knew how to do it.
So you were learning on the fly and leadership and all of your
associates, you know, the partners working with you, we're
counting on you to have an answer for that.
So that that after 2436 months of that burnout was a is a real
thing still. But certainly in that 2223
period, I would say some leaders who maybe had felt they had five
to seven years left in their career decided, you know, that's
enough. I've done my bit for King and
Country and it's time for me to do other things with.
My life. OK, but I mean, I'm curious, you
know? I mean, you're getting calls
daily, you know, help me find a CHRO.
Imagine you're getting a call from, from a board or board
member. You know, we're doing a CHRO
search. What are they asking for right
now? Like what are the, what are the
types of, you know, leadership skills and, and competencies
that you're seeing? I mean, I'm sure every situation
is different, but you know, are there any like common
denominators that you're you're seeing?
Let let me, let me talk about boards and let me talk about
CEOs because I think there's a difference between the two.
I think the board perspective is still more traditional than the
CE OS perspective is. So compliance risk more the
administrative operational efficiency component of the role
is probably a little bit more where you'll find your boards
focused. You, you know, there, there,
there's, there are two areas where I think ACHRO has the most
interaction with the board. One is around executive
compensation and the other is around succession, right.
So, so the succession piece is requiring more strategic input
than previous, but the comp piece still feels to me a little
bit more the traditional administrative excellence role
that a, a leader, HR leader plays.
And I think that, you know, boards focus on governance and
risk management. I still think they see HR in
that risk management category more than in the strategic
visioning category, where I think the CEOs see them as
playing equally valuable roles in both those domains where and
today, post pandemic, we're going to, you know, maybe a
little bit more of an economic slowdown in the country where
organizations are going through these transformation efforts
right now. You know, HR plays both a
strategic and a tactical role in, in, in those conversations
where, yes, we need to create operational efficiency in the
organization. We need to make sure we're,
we're hitting on the margin so that we do we're eliminating
redundancy, but not it's not at the cost of future growth.
So that ability to kind of both have the the talent focus and
the efficiency focus in mind at the same time is that's the art
of being a Chr right now is to be able to deal with the issues
of the present and understand that we're, you know, we need to
become more effective in what we do today.
But we can't do it in a way that we are sacrificing our ability
to innovate, grow and succeed in the future.
And that really is a talent management kind of question,
talent management puzzle that that leaders in the human
capital where I'm trying to solve.
So a great, a great Chr needs to be living sort of in the present
and, and, and and managing sort of the day-to-day and, and, and
the stabilization, but also focused on like what's going to
get us right into the future. And and so you, you mentioned
it, you know, as far as the future, talent management really
plays a critical role. Did you do you know, maybe just
help us understand what work you do?
And I mean, you're placing heads of talent as well, yes.
And OK. And and so I mean, what is that
relationship look like? Chro and and talent management,
I presume, just in the same way that, you know, in the Trilogy
model, you have to have this, you know, incredible synergy
between the CEOCFOCHRO, you also have to have that great, you
know, bilateral relationship between talent management and
HR. I, I think HR is becoming talent
management really is what it is. You know, if you think about
kind of the, the transformational efforts that
are underway right now, I think what you're going to see is I, I
wouldn't say it's going to exit the function, but but that
efficiency, HR service delivery, employer relations, traditional
generalist responsibility than HR function has is going to be
automated. That's where AI is really going
to have the most impact on, on the HR function in terms of the
way HR works is that those repeatable tasks will be taken
out of people's hands and they'll be put into the hands of
agents or robots or whatever you want to call them.
So those Tier 0, Tier 1, Tier 2 responses that an HR
organization is, you know, working with from an employee
relations standpoint primarily will be done by intelligences
that aren't human right. And that leaves really the
talent piece of it that so your, your, your HR business partner,
you know, who used to be your HR journalist, you know, that
person's going to be the right hand from a talent standpoint to
a general manager at some level in the organization.
It could be the CEO at the highest level, it could be a
business unit leader, it could be a plant leader, right.
So that HR leader that they have is really going to be focused on
how are we getting the most out of the people that we have?
What are the organizational needs that we're going to have
in the future that we need to train up our people to be able
to do or bring in new people to do?
And how are we continuing to provide those, those associates
are going to be important to the the future of the organization
with opportunities to develop their own skills and grow their
careers. And that so, so I I'm seeing
kind of a merging of talent management in HR in that regard
as the more administrative, more repeatable activity in the
function kind of gets pulled out of the function.
That's interesting. I mean it that's, you know, if
you think about HR as a, as a pizza with eight slices, those
aspects of HR that are are more transactional, repeatable,
routine. Those are going to be the first
things that get right replaced by tech.
And, and it sounds like what what is left largely would be
talent management, talent development, leadership
development, succession. Yes, or design.
Or and so, and then there's implications presumably then for
the HR business partner, which from a general, if you think of
them as a generalist, they have all the pieces of the pizza, but
that would be shrinking as well. So they become more of like a
talent development or talent partner as opposed to a talent
partner. Yeah, that's a great way to put
it. Yeah, that's fascinating.
And I'm actually, we're actually seeing some of that natural
evolution. I don't know if it's being
driven through intentional strategy and as much as it's
just evolving to that, to that place, but it's really
interesting. It's happening regardless of
whether it's in, you know, consciously being guided or not.
I think the challenge for the function and not just HR but
finance is that how are we going to get new people into our
companies in those functions? Because when you think about
what AI is good at today, a, it's good at analysis, it's good
at data, it's good at analysis, and it's good at those
repeatable tasks. Well, those that analysis, those
repeatable tasks are the way we used to get new accounting grads
and new HR grads into our companies as employee relations
reps, as financial analysts. And those rules are going away.
And those rules are going away today, right?
So like I think we're really at the tip of the iceberg about,
you know, how AI is going to disrupt employment in the
workforce in, in, in, in this country and you know, beyond
this country. But we are very, very much on at
the beginning stages of that. And we are leveraging those
things that AI is good at today without having to completely
change the way the system works. So it's easier to do that by
taking away financial analyst jobs and let AI do those tasks.
But the problem is that, and I, I heard, I don't know who I can
attribute this to, but you know, we're never no longer working
on, on a pyramid from an employment standpoint.
We're, we're, we're kind of more in a diamond.
So, so it used to be, you know, the, the, the greatest amount of
hiring, at least on a professional level happen at the
at the entry level and then you know, and.
Then it gets narrow and narrow as you go.
Well, now it starts now it, it could be, it could be narrow at
the at the bottom, that's your state.
And then it's going to expand and then contract again.
So because we need folks at that mid management level where it's,
you know, it gets messy for AI to do some of that work where it
is. The edges are not as sharp.
They're a little rounder, you know, And so, but how do we get
people prepared for those jobs if the roles that we used to
hire them in are are being eroded by AI today?
Wow. That I mean, well, I know
there's certainly a trend with entry level jobs and, and I mean
you, you see articles about this all the time and why it'd be
tough to be a, you know, a senior and.
It's tough to be a new college graduate right now.
That's that's for sure. Yeah.
You know, changing very fast. Your, your previous guest, you
know, his CEO was saying we're not hiring any more coders,
right? So because AI can do it, right?
So, so the, and even those jobs we were pushing kids into less
than five years ago are now becoming much more commodities
and much more, you know, much less critical to have people
doing that work. Well, that presents its own
interesting puzzle for us to solve.
But that that clearly so. So from pyramid to diamond with
the natural problem being like, if it starts to grow here, you
need people to come in to grow it at the middle.
So how do you know, how does that middle grow if we don't, if
we have a very limited supply at the tip?
I, I, I do want to, you know, as we're, as we're getting towards
the end of our time to just pull out our respective crystal balls
for a moment and just think about, you know, this Chr role,
which is becoming increasingly more important for the
organization, not just in terms of stabilizing, but in terms of
the like, go forward strategy and, and the ability to
successfully navigate continuous change.
What advice would you give somebody who wants to be a CHRO
three years from now? You know, I want to be a Cho
three years from now. I'm, I'm going to CHRO school.
What advice would you give that individual?
Yeah, question. I, I think it would be take a
chance to be the courageous voice in the room, you know, be
that person who is giving feedback that maybe others on
the senior management team are not.
And a lot of that's going to be around leadership behavior.
So, you know, to a certain extent, I think that the Chr
plays a role of the de facto, de facto executive coach on a
senior management team. Lean into that, lean into the
fact that you do get to a certain extent some level of of
permission to play that role. But push the end envelope a
little bit on it because in times of in challenging times in
particular, often leaders kind of expose their, their, their,
their worser natures, if you will.
And people remember that forever.
So, you know, having a leader who has the ability to call out
the management team when they are not living the values of the
organization. And I think we had a, we had a
piece that came up in our CHRO panel at the Air Consulting
Summit a few weeks ago around, you know, and, and what I saw
there was a difference between culture and values, right?
And, and, and culture is cultures are what they are.
But, but, but, but when we lose sight of our values, that's when
I think, you know, organizations get into a lot of trouble.
And I think the, the CHRO, you know, has the ability to play
that courageous voice and, and, but there are, there are, there
are pluses and minuses to that. You know, you are exposing
yourself in a way that you know your other leaders in the
organization aren't expected to and there can be a negative
ramification. I would say if that negative
ramification comes to pass then that company wasn't for you
anyway and you'll be a Chr of somewhere else.
That itself I think is, I mean, I think so I think there's two
pieces of advice. It's, it's 1, you know, take
that risk. Bring that courageous voice.
But also, you know, if if it doesn't work out, then you know,
don't, don't take that personally per SE.
Like, that's probably a sign that.
It's probably a sign that you will more fully realize your
potential as a leader somewhere else.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think it, it, you know, coming full
circle, you know, and I, I'm, I'm here today as podcaster and
I've talked about my, my role as a, as a passionate talent
developer and, and, and leadership consultant and
executive coach. But I'm also CEO.
And there is nothing more valuable to ACEO than when
somebody on the team raises their hand and says I disagree
or yes. And it, it, you know, finessing
it is, is, can be important how, how it's packaged and, and, and
obviously you want to have a good trusting relationship with
the person that's about to disagree with you.
But that is so, so valuable when I think about the CEOs that I
work with and their organizational health, the
partnership between the CHRO and the CEO is highly correlated
with the effectiveness of that CE OS leadership impact.
But also I would even go as far as saying the, the, the, the
executive team's effectiveness and the organizational
performance. And, and so it's, it's critical
and I, you know, I think that to have that courageous voice and
to manifest that effectively, you really do need to have that
really solid relationship with the CEO.
And I guess from a trilogy standpoint, CEOCFOCHRO, right,
We have to have all three. We'll do the CFO chapter at
another time. CFO chapter will be Part 2.
Well, John, I appreciate so much you being on the podcast.
Any like you know, we covered a lot of ground here.
Any final advice or reflections you have for our audience on
this topic of leadership, talent identification?
And you know, we we talked a lot about CHROS.
I I think you, you, you know, if just one more piece of advice
would be, yeah, you know, the the CHRO role has has been
elevated, really is seen as a business function.
So it's incumbent on on you in that kind of finishing stage of
your career aspiring to that type of role to be become more
adept from a business standpoint.
So whether that's, you know, taking rotational assignment,
whether that's, you know, finding the right external coach
or partner in that regard, somebody from an air or or maybe
some more functional or technical training, you know,
make sure that you're ready to participate fully in that
business conversation. So in addition to all the other
110 things that you have to do to get to that that level.
I love it. I love it.
Like take, take that seat at the table, embed yourself in the
business and be a partner and, and, and don't limit yourself to
sing yourself within just, you know, I just do these 8 slices
of the pizza. So a fantastic advice, John.
Thank you so much, John. John Toohey from Trilogy
partners, really fantastic to have him on a podcast about
leadership. And we'll look forward to that
part too on CFO. That that sounds fascinating.
Sounds good. Thank you, John.
All right.