1 00:00:00,260 --> 00:00:04,010 Hello and welcome to the Retail Podcast and you may recognise 2 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:08,020 the legend The Man. The strong start. 3 00:00:09,370 --> 00:00:13,140 Which the Steve Dennis for and we'll, we'll get into Steve. 4 00:00:13,180 --> 00:00:18,190 We're here at the National Retail Federation conference 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,550 here in Singapore and I had the great fortune. 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,710 Obviously I've been stalking you through NRF. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,950 Yeah, New York purity has been have been tightened here. 8 00:00:28,620 --> 00:00:31,950 Let's see to relate the legal team. 9 00:00:32,980 --> 00:00:36,070 But I've been following Stephen when his new book came out. 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:38,950 Actually, this is the thing because I heard about it in the 11 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,190 US. Is it on global release now? 12 00:00:41,260 --> 00:00:43,560 Almost all right. OK, Yeah. 13 00:00:43,570 --> 00:00:45,840 You get a few markets a little bit later for reasons I don't 14 00:00:45,850 --> 00:00:48,650 understand. UK is a little bit later, 15 00:00:48,660 --> 00:00:50,830 Australia is another month on SO but. 16 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,910 Soon very hence why I couldn't get it when I went to the school 17 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,350 but admitted to saying that I stole this copy shop talk in Las 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,230 Vegas and the press room. It was me. 19 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,750 Sorry if you were like what happened to my version of the 20 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:04,470 book. Anyway, Steve, for those who 21 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,100 don't know you, why don't you give us a a quick overview of 22 00:01:07,110 --> 00:01:09,490 who you? Are sure well I've been in 23 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:12,520 retail most of my career I did a couple of things a bit a bit 24 00:01:12,530 --> 00:01:14,930 earlier I spent a little bit of time in the food business worked 25 00:01:14,940 --> 00:01:19,550 for a big consulting firm, but in the early 1990s I joined 26 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,140 Sears Roebuck and company in Chicago some people will know at 27 00:01:23,150 --> 00:01:26,470 one point Sears was the biggest retailer on the planet today, 28 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,260 not so much that's. Maybe something we'll we'll chat 29 00:01:29,270 --> 00:01:35,140 about a little bit, but I spent time on corporate leadership 30 00:01:35,190 --> 00:01:38,900 side most recently before I went out on my own. 31 00:01:38,910 --> 00:01:41,290 I was at the Neiman Marcus Group as the head of strategy and 32 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:42,860 innovation and a few other things. 33 00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:46,210 But the last is about 15 years now. 34 00:01:46,220 --> 00:01:48,140 I've been doing strategy consulting. 35 00:01:48,150 --> 00:01:51,760 That's morphed into keynote speaking, morphed into writing 36 00:01:51,770 --> 00:01:54,480 and podcasting. And now I've written a couple of 37 00:01:54,490 --> 00:01:57,140 books, most recent one, the one we were just talking about 38 00:01:57,150 --> 00:01:59,760 called Leaders Leap. So kind of a Renaissance man. 39 00:02:00,030 --> 00:02:03,560 And I think I'll have. Obviously I'll post such honest 40 00:02:03,570 --> 00:02:07,350 leaders leap Yeah, so you you can see it. 41 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:09,350 And the first book was remarkable retail. 42 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,620 Remarkable retail, right, came out right as the pandemic was 43 00:02:12,630 --> 00:02:15,340 starting. Not the best timing to release a 44 00:02:15,350 --> 00:02:18,360 book by the way, but then I did a second edition a year later. 45 00:02:18,370 --> 00:02:22,220 Just kind of update it for the the emerging post COVID world. 46 00:02:22,270 --> 00:02:25,510 Oh, fantastic. So I guess before obviously 47 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,600 there's so many someone like yourself, there's so many areas 48 00:02:28,610 --> 00:02:30,680 we can go in. I'd love to talk about your 49 00:02:30,690 --> 00:02:34,620 thoughts on retail right now because in your podcast you 50 00:02:34,630 --> 00:02:37,090 always start off with like the where are we? 51 00:02:37,100 --> 00:02:39,190 What's the economy, the economy looking like? 52 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,050 Yeah, I just wanna from you've been around the world. 53 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,990 Like we're in June, you've already been around the world. 54 00:02:45,100 --> 00:02:46,560 What are the things that you've noticed? 55 00:02:46,570 --> 00:02:50,820 What surprised you? I think what surprised me 56 00:02:50,870 --> 00:02:56,840 relative to the US in particular is how much more impactful a lot 57 00:02:56,850 --> 00:03:00,340 of the retail is in in other markets. 58 00:03:00,350 --> 00:03:03,970 Like I look at the shopping malls in the US and in Canada 59 00:03:04,110 --> 00:03:06,340 and for the most part they're quite boring. 60 00:03:06,570 --> 00:03:09,540 Then I come to a place like Singapore or Dubai or go to some 61 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:12,000 of the department stores in London, for example, and they're 62 00:03:12,010 --> 00:03:14,610 just much more elevated. I know it's popular to say 63 00:03:14,620 --> 00:03:16,760 experiential. I don't particularly love that 64 00:03:16,770 --> 00:03:19,020 word, but I would say much more of an emotional connection, much 65 00:03:19,030 --> 00:03:21,830 more elevated, much more fun places to be. 66 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,530 Yeah, with interesting things going on, not only the products 67 00:03:24,540 --> 00:03:27,350 themselves, but the environments and just the energy. 68 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,060 Yeah. So that's one of the things I've 69 00:03:29,070 --> 00:03:30,240 really noticed. I think it's a missed 70 00:03:30,250 --> 00:03:32,670 opportunity for a lot of retailers. 71 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,870 A lot of the conversations, though, still kind of the same, 72 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,660 lots about AI. Certainly retail media networks 73 00:03:40,670 --> 00:03:43,390 are managing as a point of conversation. 74 00:03:43,620 --> 00:03:45,890 The interplay between digital and physical. 75 00:03:45,900 --> 00:03:48,730 I mean, all these kinds of things are pretty common topics. 76 00:03:48,740 --> 00:03:52,520 I think they happen to be. I'm looking out towards the end 77 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:53,860 of the year. What, what, what are what are 78 00:03:53,870 --> 00:03:56,510 the highlights that you've got? Where else are you gonna be? 79 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,840 Where are people gonna find you throughout the year? 80 00:03:58,910 --> 00:04:02,180 I'm hoping to travel a little bit less actually. 81 00:04:02,230 --> 00:04:06,330 Alright, so most most travel domestically for the for the 82 00:04:06,340 --> 00:04:08,100 balance of the year. It's been a pretty crazy year 83 00:04:08,110 --> 00:04:11,560 and a half. I will I will be a shopper baby 84 00:04:11,570 --> 00:04:15,520 grocery shop and you know, a few private events, things like 85 00:04:15,530 --> 00:04:17,720 that. But yeah, China the last year 86 00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:21,110 and a half between finishing my book and and some of the travel 87 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,510 has been a little chaotic. So I think I'm I'm old. 88 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,340 I need a bit of a rest. OK, let's get into the book. 89 00:04:27,350 --> 00:04:31,260 I mean, I as a in my stolen copy, I've read, you know, the 90 00:04:31,270 --> 00:04:34,060 first, the first part where you talk about your career is 91 00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:36,410 serious. And ultimately I get the sense 92 00:04:36,420 --> 00:04:40,160 that you're poking businesses to do more than the sense that I've 93 00:04:40,170 --> 00:04:41,340 got. But you tell me. 94 00:04:41,350 --> 00:04:44,320 I mean, world's the journey that you're going to take a reader on 95 00:04:44,390 --> 00:04:46,430 through the. Book, yeah, the, well, the 96 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,690 impetus for the book it a lot of respects was in some way, shape 97 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:53,690 or form. And this really did start when 98 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,670 not, not right when I got to Sears, but into my career at 99 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,410 Sears in the 90s as Sears was really losing relevance, losing 100 00:05:01,420 --> 00:05:04,960 market share, profit performance was deteriorating. 101 00:05:04,970 --> 00:05:07,590 One of the things that of course we talked a lot about in the 102 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,890 management side and I was working on is how do we regain 103 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:13,530 our glory? But the bigger question is how 104 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:16,190 do you go from being the biggest this powerful retailer on the 105 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,270 planet? Yeah, and and go through this 106 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:22,030 dissent and ultimately basically Sears doesn't even exist 107 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,230 anymore. Then as I got to Neiman Marcus, 108 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,110 which is much stronger company, there were still lots of 109 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,700 opportunities that we didn't seize, lots of market share. 110 00:05:33,710 --> 00:05:38,190 We let in some respects not let but happening that we were 111 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,450 leaking market share to many competitors. 112 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:43,250 And then as a consultant, I spent a lot of time working with 113 00:05:43,260 --> 00:05:47,920 clients, studying companies that have failed to keep up with this 114 00:05:47,930 --> 00:05:52,550 massive pace of disruption. And so one of the questions that 115 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,880 kind of kept coming back to me was, well, if the world has 116 00:05:55,890 --> 00:05:59,520 changed so much, because I think everybody would agree the retail 117 00:05:59,530 --> 00:06:04,120 world, yeah, absolutely quite a lot across the last 2025 years. 118 00:06:04,130 --> 00:06:07,120 But, you know, just even in the last three or five, if the world 119 00:06:07,130 --> 00:06:09,680 has changed so much, why have you changed so little? 120 00:06:09,850 --> 00:06:12,900 And in some cases, the you is the brand. 121 00:06:13,010 --> 00:06:16,920 In other cases, it's new, the leader, Yeah, because we just 122 00:06:16,930 --> 00:06:21,450 see time and time again companies that go from iconic 123 00:06:21,460 --> 00:06:25,150 positions in many cases to either irrelevance or in many 124 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,080 cases, complete extinction. Yeah. 125 00:06:27,090 --> 00:06:29,270 So that was the question I wanted to take on and I wanted 126 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:31,840 to try to take an on in a way that other people haven't 127 00:06:31,850 --> 00:06:35,970 covered and hopefully give some advice that's useful. 128 00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:40,390 So one of the frustrations I have in in when people refer to 129 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,670 retail, they're sort of everyone in the same bucket, irrespective 130 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,730 of whether you're working IT operations, watching, don't 131 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:50,840 think HR and the type of retailer that you are, you know, 132 00:06:50,850 --> 00:06:53,320 fast moving goods or whatever type, right. 133 00:06:53,370 --> 00:06:57,580 So from your as you were writing the book, who did you have in 134 00:06:57,590 --> 00:07:00,440 mind as the reader? What type of executive? 135 00:07:00,450 --> 00:07:02,560 Because although it's for the exec, yeah. 136 00:07:02,570 --> 00:07:06,150 What type of executive did you? Have in well, primarily as I was 137 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,480 writing it, my focus was on those leaders that really drive 138 00:07:10,490 --> 00:07:14,780 strategy because if you're going to transform that for the most 139 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:18,080 part has to be coming top. Now, I think there are plenty of 140 00:07:18,090 --> 00:07:21,020 lessons to be taken away for people in different positions, 141 00:07:21,030 --> 00:07:23,740 but for the most part it's really directed towards the 142 00:07:23,750 --> 00:07:26,920 C-Suite, the board, apps, investors, but people that can 143 00:07:26,930 --> 00:07:30,000 really influence the long term strategy. 144 00:07:30,070 --> 00:07:32,940 So. It's actually been crossing the 145 00:07:32,950 --> 00:07:35,000 street. There's more business orientated 146 00:07:35,010 --> 00:07:37,160 rather than lead to. All this is about just to be 147 00:07:37,170 --> 00:07:43,660 clear, it's not a retail book is I believe it has applicability 148 00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:47,360 for for profit companies. Yeah, nonprofit companies, 149 00:07:47,710 --> 00:07:52,140 retailers, hotel industries, you know, whatever any kind of 150 00:07:52,150 --> 00:07:56,520 business that is facing significant disruption and needs 151 00:07:56,530 --> 00:08:01,400 to transform to minimally keep pace, but ideally create 152 00:08:01,450 --> 00:08:03,120 distance between them and the competition. 153 00:08:03,130 --> 00:08:06,350 I I think that the lessons here, even though I draw my retail 154 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,500 experience, I use retail examples. 155 00:08:08,510 --> 00:08:11,720 I use plenty of other examples as well, so it is very much 156 00:08:11,730 --> 00:08:14,070 industry agnostic. OK. 157 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,470 And, and to be fair, as I was reading that it, it almost felt 158 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,770 like one of these Harvard Business Review type things 159 00:08:19,780 --> 00:08:23,170 that, you know, it's like a business lessons from the modern 160 00:08:23,180 --> 00:08:24,530 executive. Yeah. 161 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,080 Well, what I was trying to do is I guess yes and no. 162 00:08:30,130 --> 00:08:33,299 I mean, I one of the things I absolutely didn't want to do. 163 00:08:33,350 --> 00:08:35,600 Yeah, I always make it overly academic. 164 00:08:35,650 --> 00:08:38,460 There are a lot of great books, including books that I have in 165 00:08:38,470 --> 00:08:41,190 the big biography that I reference, books like the 166 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,670 Innovators Dilemma, Blue Ocean Strategy, Good to great. 167 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:50,260 These are fantastic books, but I think they are often too left 168 00:08:50,270 --> 00:08:54,230 brain, too intellectual, too academic in their approach. 4 or 169 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,430 500 pages, 50 case studies. And I wanted to do something 170 00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:03,380 that is serious but much more inspirational. 171 00:09:03,450 --> 00:09:07,540 And I think part of what those books Ness is, they often point 172 00:09:07,550 --> 00:09:11,600 out the flaws and strategy, and that's incredibly useful. 173 00:09:11,670 --> 00:09:15,780 Yeah, but I wasn't necessarily going to add much to that, to 174 00:09:15,790 --> 00:09:18,890 that equation. What I wanted to say is even 175 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:20,940 yeah, and I do make some struggles and points. 176 00:09:20,950 --> 00:09:25,650 Yeah, sure. But even if you ohh not just 177 00:09:25,660 --> 00:09:29,520 eating that my experience has been that many leaders and it's 178 00:09:29,530 --> 00:09:32,170 definitely my experience at Sears is definitely experiencing 179 00:09:32,180 --> 00:09:34,610 and Marcus, it's been my experience with clients. 180 00:09:34,620 --> 00:09:36,510 It's been my experience studying companies. 181 00:09:36,780 --> 00:09:40,820 Most of the time, those leaders know what to do. 182 00:09:40,890 --> 00:09:44,690 Yeah, but they don't do it. So what I wanted to get into is 183 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:47,790 not to say here's how you come up with a new strategy. 184 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:48,970 Yeah. You know, if you're in the 185 00:09:48,980 --> 00:09:52,290 department store business, you've known, at least in the US 186 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:54,250 Yeah, it's true in some other markets as well. 187 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:56,630 You're the department services as one example. 188 00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,050 You've known for more than 20 years that you are haemorrhaging 189 00:10:00,060 --> 00:10:04,170 market share to many of them, all competitors as well as 190 00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:08,490 folks, folks like Amazon. Yeah, every year, Macy's, JC 191 00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:11,210 Penny, those brands, every year they're performance has gotten 192 00:10:11,220 --> 00:10:11,970 worse. Yeah. 193 00:10:11,980 --> 00:10:15,880 Every year the data shows that this, this is going. 194 00:10:15,890 --> 00:10:17,120 Yeah. And why? 195 00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:19,280 Yeah. But half measures availed them, 196 00:10:19,290 --> 00:10:20,500 Nothing. They have been doing very 197 00:10:20,510 --> 00:10:23,520 instrumental things that have made have not made a significant 198 00:10:23,530 --> 00:10:24,980 difference. So why? 199 00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:28,020 Yeah, in a lot of cases, it's the failure to breakthrough, the 200 00:10:28,030 --> 00:10:31,160 denial that they are facing, the throwing motion crisis. 201 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:32,730 It's fear. It's sworn. 202 00:10:32,740 --> 00:10:34,180 It's these kinds of things. Yeah. 203 00:10:34,190 --> 00:10:38,580 I wanted to take on what are these mindsets that prevent 204 00:10:38,810 --> 00:10:42,560 leaders from doing the things they know they must do. 205 00:10:42,570 --> 00:10:44,390 Make some strategy once along the way. 206 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,430 Yeah. But I mostly wanted to get into 207 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,810 this idea. How do you become fundamentally 208 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,950 a more courageous leader? And that's really not OHH, I'll 209 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,130 take it on by the Clayton Christensen's and yeah, there's 210 00:10:55,140 --> 00:10:57,610 no matter how important those looks at. 211 00:10:58,260 --> 00:11:03,010 And I did create protecting Christians course, obviously 212 00:11:03,020 --> 00:11:05,440 he's obviously passed away, yes. So I love it. 213 00:11:06,510 --> 00:11:09,020 Ohh, I don't wanna give you I don't want you to sort of spoil, 214 00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:13,240 but readers journey. But is that like you said, you 215 00:11:13,250 --> 00:11:15,810 you come away with several, the reader will come away with 216 00:11:15,820 --> 00:11:18,340 several things, right. What peeing was like the thing 217 00:11:18,350 --> 00:11:22,770 that you felt again, the one thing, you know, practical 218 00:11:22,780 --> 00:11:26,560 advice or a executive reading your book will come away. 219 00:11:26,570 --> 00:11:29,220 Obviously you said there's going to be some, you know, four or 220 00:11:29,230 --> 00:11:32,000 five different conclusions. So one thing for you that was 221 00:11:32,010 --> 00:11:34,340 like, as you were reading, it was like something you get 222 00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:36,620 goosebumps when something comes into your head. 223 00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:40,550 That's that's strong, but well, so just quick context. 224 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:42,260 So one of the things I talk about kind of the heart of the 225 00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:44,090 book or what I call these seven mind leaps. 226 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:48,790 And it's where I challenged the reader to say, OK, I approach 227 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,290 things in one way today. Yeah, but I want to move you to 228 00:11:52,380 --> 00:11:55,170 to a different way of saying. So there's seven of those. 229 00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:58,550 But the one that I think answers your question is the chapter 230 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:02,950 that deals with the OR that's titled Safe is Risky. 231 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:09,690 And I think that what we see a lot is that we think that 232 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:14,450 incremental change is actually the smart thing to do. 233 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,210 It's slow and steady sort of wins the race. 234 00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:20,450 And that was probably true and it still is true in some cases. 235 00:12:20,530 --> 00:12:24,290 But when you look at the pace of change frequently becoming more 236 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:29,570 exponential than linear the slower you go in the face of 237 00:12:29,620 --> 00:12:33,060 shifting consumer demands, shifting technology, 238 00:12:33,070 --> 00:12:36,390 particularly Jenna is. And I obviously something we've 239 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,380 seen, you know, disruptive editors coming along with slower 240 00:12:40,390 --> 00:12:42,390 you go the further and further you fall. 241 00:12:43,230 --> 00:12:46,740 Yeah. And that rightly risks an 242 00:12:46,750 --> 00:12:49,200 existential crisis. And we've seen this laying out 243 00:12:49,210 --> 00:12:51,320 or even see the exception. So. 244 00:12:51,380 --> 00:12:58,580 So somehow we have to understand that that this incremental 245 00:12:58,590 --> 00:13:01,960 change is often the most risky thing we can do. 246 00:13:02,010 --> 00:13:04,220 Yeah. And and change our relationship 247 00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:05,060 to risk. But it's hard. 248 00:13:05,070 --> 00:13:07,140 You know, we're just not wired as a species. 249 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:08,650 Yeah, too. Yeah, absolutely. 250 00:13:08,660 --> 00:13:12,900 You know, we've been taught through evolutionary biology to 251 00:13:12,970 --> 00:13:15,540 protect ourselves. And, you know, my own experience 252 00:13:15,550 --> 00:13:18,800 as a leader, oftentimes, like, I don't want people to see that I 253 00:13:18,810 --> 00:13:22,460 don't know what I'm doing. I don't want people to see that 254 00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:24,700 I'm afraid a lot. Yeah. 255 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:28,240 I don't want to get fired because I go after some ideas. 256 00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:31,290 So there's a lot of personal and cultural barriers that often 257 00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:33,310 keep companies from taking the risk. 258 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,910 They must, you know, go back to the department store example. 259 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,110 It would have been far wiser 20 years ago for Macy's to have 260 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,250 made significant investments in office retail. 261 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,010 They have lost massive share in cosmetics to players like Ulta 262 00:13:47,020 --> 00:13:49,820 and Sephora. It's, it's, it's so crazy how 263 00:13:49,830 --> 00:13:52,570 much value is migrated. Alta is an example. 264 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:55,800 I know they're on us, so may not resonate with their leaders, but 265 00:13:55,860 --> 00:13:59,490 also just in their small stores, they've gone from nothing. 266 00:13:59,680 --> 00:14:05,530 The 1400 stores, their market value as just selling cosmetics, 267 00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:10,020 yeah, is more than five times the value of all the top five 268 00:14:10,030 --> 00:14:12,280 U.S. Department stores combined. 269 00:14:12,410 --> 00:14:16,890 So abysmal performance, Yeah. But you know, you have to see 270 00:14:16,900 --> 00:14:20,690 and respond to that instead of just trying to make your core 271 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:25,830 business incrementally better. So I think this understanding or 272 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,590 changing our relationship to rest, I think is a really 273 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,540 fundamental thing. So that's that's the thing I 274 00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:32,950 think I would most like people to see. 275 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:34,380 And you know, it's easier said than done. 276 00:14:34,390 --> 00:14:36,430 Like that's a nice hippy thing to say. 277 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,190 Trying to give examples. Of I said on conclusion said 278 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,850 there's no spoiler alerts still get the book yeah we need to get 279 00:14:44,860 --> 00:14:48,510 through the seven things if if I feel so incredibly because it 280 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,270 feels like my own episode of remarkable reach out He's also 281 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:56,580 going for you apart from your Co host is missing in terms of just 282 00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:59,460 quick tangent I think we were both set. 283 00:14:59,550 --> 00:15:05,020 I'm curious on your opinion on the CEO of Macy's and their new 284 00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:09,040 vision of going into what's then blue, their new. 285 00:15:09,050 --> 00:15:11,920 Form bold new strap they've got. Bloomberg Careers. 286 00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:14,100 Mercury. Which might not available 287 00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:18,770 anywhere else on every race, but I'm just curious ringing or saw 288 00:15:18,780 --> 00:15:24,580 or heard what he was seeing at Congress, sure that I'm not 289 00:15:24,590 --> 00:15:27,390 gonna get to turn that around. No, it's. 290 00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:30,320 OK, it's. All too little, too. 291 00:15:31,140 --> 00:15:33,760 Alright. I mean, I hope they will, but I 292 00:15:33,770 --> 00:15:35,720 think ultimately it's too little, too late. 293 00:15:35,730 --> 00:15:38,130 And one of the problems, particularly with the publicly 294 00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:42,040 traded companies, is that end, you know, we faced this, I would 295 00:15:42,050 --> 00:15:43,890 say it's years, more than 20 years ago. 296 00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:49,150 Even if we had a brilliant, bold strategy to turn things around, 297 00:15:49,220 --> 00:15:53,590 yeah #1 there's no way you're going to get Wall Street to 298 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,720 support things you need to do. I mean, Macy's needs to change. 299 00:15:57,850 --> 00:15:59,950 I mean, I just think they started too late. 300 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,530 But yeah. But even if that's not true and 301 00:16:02,540 --> 00:16:06,810 I'm wrong about that, they have to go so much faster and it's 302 00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:08,610 going to take many billions of dollars. 303 00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:12,060 They have to completely reconfigure their real estate. 304 00:16:12,070 --> 00:16:15,340 And the business is, you know, it's been decelerating for 20 305 00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:18,300 plus years. Maybe it's a little bit pulled 306 00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:20,820 out of their dot. So I suspect their performance 307 00:16:20,830 --> 00:16:26,230 might include through marginally, but they're they're 308 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,270 not going to be growing market share to any significant degree. 309 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:31,690 And the nature of that business is very difficult. 310 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:34,790 But I wouldn't say and I don't know Tony sprang at all. 311 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,700 I know people that I know that know him say great things about 312 00:16:37,710 --> 00:16:38,950 it. I'm sure the impression. 313 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,900 One stage. Yeah, presentation. 314 00:16:40,910 --> 00:16:42,600 Yeah, Yeah. And, you know, to me, it's like 315 00:16:42,610 --> 00:16:45,990 when bad jobs happen to good people willing to believe he's a 316 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,910 great guy. His predecessor was a great guy. 317 00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:51,870 But, you know, when you watch the last 20 years happened to 318 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:57,000 you, the reality often is that options are not available to you 319 00:16:57,010 --> 00:16:58,920 anymore. Yeah, I think the door probably 320 00:16:58,930 --> 00:17:01,040 shut on Macy's five or ten years ago. 321 00:17:01,110 --> 00:17:02,600 I hope I'm wrong. Yeah. 322 00:17:02,610 --> 00:17:04,680 The best thing that could probably happen to Macy's 323 00:17:04,690 --> 00:17:08,220 through their success is for a couple of the other major 324 00:17:08,410 --> 00:17:10,920 sources to go out of business because it's a shrinking pie and 325 00:17:10,930 --> 00:17:13,349 if they could somehow grab more share. 326 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,250 But a bunch of things have to happen. 327 00:17:15,260 --> 00:17:18,700 And I, I, I will unfortunately be pretty sceptical about that. 328 00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:22,890 So the lesson, you know, really for for company, but still have 329 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:26,630 the ability to change is if you're losing relevance, if 330 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,330 you're not aiming higher and the value that you deliver to 331 00:17:30,340 --> 00:17:33,790 customers and and and perform in a way that they exceed your 332 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,990 competition and you aren't moving faster, then now is the 333 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,110 time. Yeah. 334 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,360 Because as time goes on and as the pace of change accelerates, 335 00:17:42,370 --> 00:17:44,470 you just fall further and further behind. 336 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,340 You might get longer, you can't catch up. 337 00:17:47,690 --> 00:17:50,970 He talked to you but so much longer, but I wanna be 338 00:17:50,980 --> 00:17:53,940 respectful to your time. The show 4 that we've got called 339 00:17:53,950 --> 00:17:56,130 the Doppler ourselves here, Steve. 340 00:17:56,140 --> 00:17:58,870 It's been absolutely fantastic to catch up learning about the 341 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,810 book. So the book wobble on hopefully, 342 00:18:01,820 --> 00:18:03,950 I mean this podcast will go out imminently. 343 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,130 So it will be on general release. 344 00:18:05,140 --> 00:18:07,370 You can get it from. Yeah, you could. 345 00:18:07,380 --> 00:18:10,790 You could really pre-order if it's not available in your part 346 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,730 of the world. Yeah, you can preorder it 347 00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:14,720 everywhere. I'm pretty sure side to the 348 00:18:14,730 --> 00:18:18,660 book. And yes, there's a how about my 349 00:18:18,670 --> 00:18:21,340 at stephenpdennis.com. Just go to book. 350 00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:23,920 You could see it. But yeah, you could pre-order it 351 00:18:23,930 --> 00:18:26,000 anywhere. It's also immediately available 352 00:18:26,010 --> 00:18:28,940 everywhere on Kindle and on Audible. 353 00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:32,270 So, but you might have to wait a few weeks to get your hands on a 354 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,060 hard drive. OK, fantastic, Steve. 355 00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:35,000 Thank you so much. Thank you. 356 00:18:35,010 --> 00:18:35,980 Sir, pleasure.