1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,320 Hello and welcome to the Retail podcast and today we're joined 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,120 by Sarah Engel from January Digital Live from New York. 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:09,640 So let me bring her to the stream so she's not there 4 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:11,160 listening in the In the Green room. 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,080 Hello Sarah, how you doing? The Green Room. 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,920 But anyway. Thank you so much for having me. 7 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,720 I'm so glad to see you again Sarah. 8 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,680 I feel rather than witter off your fantastic list of 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,000 credentials, and I think a couple of ones. 10 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,330 Just a tap tap on why I thought would be wonderful to have this 11 00:00:28,330 --> 00:00:31,130 conversation with you right now as we go into the golden 12 00:00:31,130 --> 00:00:33,130 quarter. There's a lot of topical things 13 00:00:33,130 --> 00:00:36,570 but it feels like if you are anyone in the conference 14 00:00:36,570 --> 00:00:39,730 industry and you want to keep your finger on the poles they 15 00:00:39,730 --> 00:00:42,890 phone you up and ask you to to to be the person the government 16 00:00:42,890 --> 00:00:43,970 speak. You're. 17 00:00:43,970 --> 00:00:46,410 You're on the board at the shop, talking grocery shop, your 18 00:00:46,410 --> 00:00:52,730 advisor, the NRF and and NXT you you're the women in retail 19 00:00:52,730 --> 00:00:57,100 leadership circle and you also while doing all of this have 20 00:00:57,100 --> 00:01:03,900 grown your career from CRO to to CMO to now President at January 21 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:06,420 Digital. And it's phenomenal to see. 22 00:01:06,420 --> 00:01:08,940 And what we've tried to do on the podcast over the over the 23 00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:13,500 years is look at great leaders who are sort of empowering not 24 00:01:13,500 --> 00:01:16,300 only their teams and their business but the industry. 25 00:01:16,660 --> 00:01:20,100 And I think you're, you know, your your, your profile speaks 26 00:01:20,100 --> 00:01:22,820 volumes of how you're doing both things which must be really 27 00:01:22,820 --> 00:01:24,930 challenging though. Oh, thank you. 28 00:01:24,930 --> 00:01:26,970 So what a kind introduction by the way. 29 00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:31,810 It's a trip down memory lane. But yeah, I mean it we, it is 30 00:01:31,810 --> 00:01:33,610 such a phenomenal time in the industry. 31 00:01:33,890 --> 00:01:36,770 It certainly has been challenging and there's a lot of 32 00:01:36,770 --> 00:01:40,610 headwinds, but it's also because of those headwinds, there's so 33 00:01:40,610 --> 00:01:43,250 much innovation going on. It's moving so quickly. 34 00:01:43,570 --> 00:01:46,850 So I find that really exciting. There's, you know, that the 35 00:01:46,970 --> 00:01:49,570 people that I'm surrounded with, the women that I'm able to 36 00:01:49,570 --> 00:01:52,050 interact with and and, you know, kind of help in their next 37 00:01:52,050 --> 00:01:55,110 stages of their careers. Like they are the ones making 38 00:01:55,110 --> 00:01:58,550 the changes in this industry and are moving as fast and hopefully 39 00:01:58,550 --> 00:02:00,510 sometimes faster than the consumers moving. 40 00:02:00,510 --> 00:02:04,310 So it's a phenomenal time in the industry and I think change is 41 00:02:04,310 --> 00:02:07,230 always a great fuel for innovation. 42 00:02:07,710 --> 00:02:11,710 But before we get into, if you like the day job and I mean I've 43 00:02:11,710 --> 00:02:14,550 got so much to ask you about community commerce, I've seen 44 00:02:14,550 --> 00:02:17,670 your post about Tick Tock about what retailer should be doing in 45 00:02:17,670 --> 00:02:21,510 engaging the audience earlier. But I just think if we look at 46 00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:24,760 the, you know, Sarah the human take take away the retail 47 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,320 element for a minute. What I'd love to do is and and 48 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,600 luckily fortunately the I've looked at my data from Spotify 49 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,880 on on the listenership and we do have females almost equally 50 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,080 represented not only from a listenership but also from an 51 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,600 engagement perspective. And so the ages between 25 to 52 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:49,200 roughly 45I, I have parity in listenership. 53 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,520 So I'm 25 and I think this is the, the advice that I'm going 54 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,760 to ask you to give probably can go to either either or. 55 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,600 But I'm just curious if you could go back in time to sort of 56 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:05,240 whisper in your ear early on in your career to accelerate your 57 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,560 amazing career that you've got and are still building. 58 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:13,080 What would that advice be? There's a there are a couple 59 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,320 that I think of often. I think the biggest one, first 60 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,040 and foremost is that setting boundaries. 61 00:03:21,470 --> 00:03:24,270 Actually gets too farther ahead and it's good for everyone 62 00:03:24,270 --> 00:03:27,070 involved. I think it took me a long time 63 00:03:27,070 --> 00:03:33,310 to realize saying I'm not able to fly on Sunday, I will be 64 00:03:33,310 --> 00:03:37,510 there on Monday hard stop as opposed to well because my kids 65 00:03:37,510 --> 00:03:39,710 have to go to school and all these details of like, this is 66 00:03:39,710 --> 00:03:42,230 what I'm able to do, this is what I'm willing and able to do. 67 00:03:43,110 --> 00:03:48,350 Once I did that, it unlocked. It made me so much more powerful 68 00:03:48,350 --> 00:03:50,790 and focused within each moment of my life. 69 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,920 And so I think those, the establishment of boundaries, I 70 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,240 certainly wish I had figured out earlier in my 20s. 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,360 You know, you wear yourself down, you end up getting sick. 72 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,160 You know, you do all of these things to tie yourself in knots 73 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,320 and really doesn't need to be that way. 74 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,520 And it's not. And it's not just a power 75 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,000 differential element. It is like literally the ability 76 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,880 to say here the boundaries of each element of my life. 77 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,880 Here's how I'm going about this. I'm very clear. 78 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,160 I know what my priorities are. It actually helps everyone 79 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,000 around you. And I think it's sometimes seen 80 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,360 as selfish and it's and it's absolutely not, it is self 81 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,040 protecting but it actually serves everyone around you. 82 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,920 Everybody's very clear on what what is going to get done at 83 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,760 each individual time in your life. 84 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,960 And so that would be one big one. 85 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,240 The other one is is more tactical I suppose, which is to 86 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,840 say if you are coming up in communications or liberal arts 87 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,240 degree, get your finance training. 88 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,320 That is, that was one of those lessons in life, that the moment 89 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,960 I stepped into a boardroom, I realized that most of the people 90 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,520 at the table, the likely I'd be the only woman, and I would also 91 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,120 be the only one who came from a marketing or communications 92 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,640 background. The moment I couldn't speak the 93 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,920 same language in terms of finance, I was dead in the 94 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,160 water. And so I actually personally 95 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,480 spent my money on the side years ago went got financing I needed. 96 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,400 Which helped me of course in every element of the business. 97 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,840 It helped me to become a president of a company to be 98 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:20,200 able to run things from a more operational standpoint. 99 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,480 But that's always my advice to our more communications focused 100 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,720 team members and and you know, young, young people that I'm 101 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,600 involved with is make sure that you're covering every area of 102 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,680 business. For me, that was finance because 103 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,240 at some point you need to be able to speak that language, 104 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,220 need to understand it deeply to be able to run a PNL Yeah, no, I 105 00:05:40,220 --> 00:05:41,780 love it. And and just to let you know, 106 00:05:41,780 --> 00:05:45,900 they're actually 2 new points. That one of the main things that 107 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:49,820 a lot of listeners have heard from, from several CEO female 108 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:54,140 leaders is the fact that the the voice that they had in their in 109 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:58,100 their heads was one that they wish they hadn't had. 110 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:02,300 Basically having permission to talk is is one of the things as 111 00:06:02,300 --> 00:06:06,700 a as a female leader later in life that was never an issue 112 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:09,180 early in life. It's like do I have permission 113 00:06:09,220 --> 00:06:13,300 and and that's why I was saying that probably is as relevant to 114 00:06:13,580 --> 00:06:17,580 to myself or to anyone. But it was really interesting 115 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:22,060 and I and I guess when people look at their careers, making 116 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:24,420 sure you have that wellrounded perspective is what, which is 117 00:06:24,420 --> 00:06:27,460 what you're saying if you're going to go into leadership, you 118 00:06:27,460 --> 00:06:31,050 need that wellrounded. Absolutely. 119 00:06:31,170 --> 00:06:33,130 That brings a slightly different point out. 120 00:06:33,130 --> 00:06:37,450 But the idea of advocacy and building that good ideas are 121 00:06:37,450 --> 00:06:41,210 good ideas, right? The the, the willingness and 122 00:06:41,210 --> 00:06:43,770 ability to speak up. I think about reverse mentorship 123 00:06:43,770 --> 00:06:45,810 that I have here in our organization. 124 00:06:45,810 --> 00:06:48,210 Like there are so many younger people in our organization with 125 00:06:48,250 --> 00:06:51,530 phenomenal ideas who grew up digitally native. 126 00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:55,540 If I'm if I'm not able to put my own background and ego to the 127 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:58,620 side to learn from these team members, like there's no way 128 00:06:58,620 --> 00:06:59,780 you're going to innovate fast enough. 129 00:06:59,820 --> 00:07:01,740 And so I think that's true for anybody. 130 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:06,020 There are very distinctive moments careerwise where it was 131 00:07:06,020 --> 00:07:09,940 more literal, like I remember being on an executive team, not 132 00:07:09,940 --> 00:07:13,380 here in the past where there were two women in the executive 133 00:07:13,380 --> 00:07:15,580 team and then there were a number of men on the executive 134 00:07:15,580 --> 00:07:17,860 team. And what we realized was that 135 00:07:18,500 --> 00:07:20,460 sometimes those ideas weren't quite heard. 136 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:22,630 Somebody would say something and then somebody would say it 137 00:07:22,630 --> 00:07:24,350 later. And then John, that was a good 138 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:27,190 idea, that type of thing. We actually had a code. 139 00:07:27,190 --> 00:07:28,830 We literally kind of worked without the background. 140 00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:30,910 And of course, now I do it very naturally and probably have for 141 00:07:30,910 --> 00:07:34,590 the last 10 years, but it was like that was a really good idea 142 00:07:35,030 --> 00:07:36,350 when you brought that up earlier. 143 00:07:36,350 --> 00:07:38,470 Could you elaborate on that? Hey, but you mentioned that 144 00:07:38,470 --> 00:07:40,950 earlier. So there was actually kind of a 145 00:07:40,990 --> 00:07:45,340 very intentional advocacy. And and certainly that was in 146 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:47,180 this case where we, you know, only had two women on an 147 00:07:47,180 --> 00:07:49,700 executive team over time. I think that's for anybody. 148 00:07:49,860 --> 00:07:52,020 And I think it's even more important when you have hybrid 149 00:07:52,020 --> 00:07:55,420 and remote work situations, might be an introvert, extrovert 150 00:07:55,420 --> 00:07:57,300 situation. It might be one person on the 151 00:07:57,300 --> 00:07:59,060 screen and everybody else in the room. 152 00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:04,220 So being very emotionally aware of people trying to speak of, 153 00:08:04,380 --> 00:08:07,140 you know, an idea, something somebody wants to bring up that 154 00:08:07,140 --> 00:08:09,060 somebody hasn't said something in a while. 155 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,560 And making sure that you're actually bringing people into 156 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,280 the conversation, like very intentional advocacy helps your 157 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,800 own team operate in a stronger way and innovate faster. 158 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:19,440 And I just want to pick up on that. 159 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,200 You mentioned earlier about allyship and and you know and 160 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,800 truly sort of being empowering your team. 161 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,440 What words of advice would you have for executives who 162 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,280 potentially don't know how to be an ally, right. 163 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,110 I think that's this word that everyone It's it. 164 00:08:39,150 --> 00:08:41,030 Is it just mean I'm a nice person, right? 165 00:08:41,030 --> 00:08:43,990 Am I? Do I have to proactively do 166 00:08:43,990 --> 00:08:46,550 something? And what is that thing that I 167 00:08:46,590 --> 00:08:49,970 need to do So as an executive, as a as the president who runs a 168 00:08:49,970 --> 00:08:51,690 visit, what, what words of wisdom would you out? 169 00:08:52,410 --> 00:08:54,810 It's true for anybody. But I actually want to speak to 170 00:08:55,210 --> 00:08:59,330 your male listenership right now because I will tell you, and I 171 00:08:59,330 --> 00:09:02,810 would say most women, I just did a panel recently with two 172 00:09:02,810 --> 00:09:06,570 phenomenally high-powered women in retail and all three of us, 173 00:09:06,570 --> 00:09:09,930 as we talked about our own mentors, our own champions, 174 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:14,050 almost all of them were men. So we certainly had a woman or 175 00:09:14,050 --> 00:09:17,850 two, but almost all in moments. So, so the the power of male 176 00:09:17,850 --> 00:09:21,010 allies and the power of just champions for good ideas. 177 00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:25,210 Again, male, female, good ideas, somebody being really having a 178 00:09:25,210 --> 00:09:27,290 real a lot of promise in your organization. 179 00:09:27,930 --> 00:09:31,330 I think the biggest thing is being very conscientious of 180 00:09:31,330 --> 00:09:33,410 speaking people's name when they're not in the room. 181 00:09:34,370 --> 00:09:38,650 The reality is you are often in a room where decisions are being 182 00:09:38,650 --> 00:09:40,130 made. If you're in a legal role, 183 00:09:40,130 --> 00:09:42,170 you're in a room where decisions are being made. 184 00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:46,730 It is your responsibility to say when somebody says you did such 185 00:09:46,730 --> 00:09:49,690 a great job on that, to go, oh, Danielle actually built that. 186 00:09:50,050 --> 00:09:52,050 That was actually her idea. She's not in the room, right. 187 00:09:52,050 --> 00:09:53,810 And so it's my responsibility to say that on her path. 188 00:09:54,410 --> 00:09:57,250 And so I think of situations like that where like that is one 189 00:09:57,250 --> 00:10:01,010 of the strongest thing leaders can do is not just giving credit 190 00:10:01,010 --> 00:10:03,290 where credit is due, but like, hey, we're thinking about this 191 00:10:03,290 --> 00:10:04,610 new thing. We're working through this. 192 00:10:04,850 --> 00:10:06,770 Why don't we go ask these three people? 193 00:10:06,770 --> 00:10:09,090 Like, they have really unique perspectives, right? 194 00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:12,010 Let, let and you talk about inclusion. 195 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,840 That is an element of inclusion, like making sure that your brain 196 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,120 voices into the room and to have the conversation. 197 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,720 So I think there's more formal ways to go about it too. 198 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,600 Mentorship is certainly powerful and important and and they're 199 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,840 both informal structures of mentorship, which I've 200 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,640 experienced as well as more formal. 201 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,120 I remember going to somebody who had a very different skill set, 202 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:36,960 a senior person in our organization. 203 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,680 And I said to him, would you be willing to mentor me? 204 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:43,240 This is what I mean by that. Well, could we meet one time per 205 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:44,520 month? I only need one hour of your 206 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,560 time. This is the type of feedback I 207 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:48,200 need. I would love to give you this 208 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,280 feedback in return. This is a mutually beneficial 209 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,360 relationship. Like there is I've had very 210 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,080 structured mentorships like that and then I've had more informal 211 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,880 ones. I also, you know, sometimes it 212 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,240 takes you years to realize that person that was really the 213 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,520 champion for you, the ally for you, the person speaking up for 214 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,880 you when you're not in the room. Sometimes it's very clear it's 215 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,000 I'm negotiating this contract and. 216 00:11:09,530 --> 00:11:12,650 I can think of a, you know, phenomenal male ally who I was 217 00:11:12,770 --> 00:11:15,490 negotiating a contract years ago and I'm like, am I allowed to 218 00:11:15,530 --> 00:11:19,130 ask for this? You know, I wasn't sure the 219 00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:20,290 answer. And I'm like, I know who knows 220 00:11:20,290 --> 00:11:23,170 the answer, this guy. And just the ability and the 221 00:11:23,170 --> 00:11:27,570 willingness to share that information is incredibly 222 00:11:27,570 --> 00:11:29,650 powerful. So I think there's if I think of 223 00:11:29,650 --> 00:11:31,970 it as a continuum, yes, there's mentorship. 224 00:11:32,010 --> 00:11:34,490 Informally informal, there's then. 225 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,000 Allyship like I'm going to be in a, in a outspoken way in my 226 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,560 organization, in my social network, on stage say this is 227 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:46,080 what I stand for in this championship. 228 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,600 And a lot of times that championship happens behind the 229 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,280 scenes. It happens in a leadership 230 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,160 meeting, an executive meeting and a board meeting. 231 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,960 It happens when somebody says, hey, I'd like to interview you 232 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,740 on this subject and you go. It's not actually my story to 233 00:11:59,740 --> 00:12:01,060 tell. Let me introduce you to these 234 00:12:01,060 --> 00:12:03,820 three people whose story does to tell like that. 235 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:05,900 That's the continuum to championship. 236 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:07,580 Yeah. You have to have so much. 237 00:12:07,940 --> 00:12:11,860 I don't know if it's high EQ like emotional intelligence to 238 00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:15,780 be able to to do that or you know, be secure in yourself, 239 00:12:15,980 --> 00:12:18,540 which sometimes in some organizations because of the 240 00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:22,780 toxicity or the way that it's run is, is really difficult. 241 00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:25,420 And I just want to pick up this. You're probably this is your 242 00:12:25,420 --> 00:12:29,930 unconscious competence is is the fact that the the you said early 243 00:12:29,930 --> 00:12:32,370 on boundaries is really important to set. 244 00:12:32,770 --> 00:12:36,290 And especially when you go into mentorship setting up listening 245 00:12:36,290 --> 00:12:39,250 to when you talk setting those boundaries of hey this is this 246 00:12:39,250 --> 00:12:42,690 is what I I'm looking for and this is what I can provide. 247 00:12:42,690 --> 00:12:45,850 I think is probably not talked about a lot because sometimes 248 00:12:45,850 --> 00:12:51,210 people feel that that's more to do with the psychology of of 249 00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:55,410 work rather than work itself right in terms of setting those 250 00:12:55,410 --> 00:12:57,290 boundaries. I love that point. 251 00:12:57,290 --> 00:12:58,450 I was going to say really fast, too. 252 00:12:58,810 --> 00:13:01,770 There's another element of I assume this person will see that 253 00:13:01,770 --> 00:13:04,210 I'm doing a good job and they'll just help me. 254 00:13:04,930 --> 00:13:07,770 You must have to be explicit. You just have to. 255 00:13:07,770 --> 00:13:10,210 And being explicit means setting boundaries around what you're 256 00:13:10,210 --> 00:13:12,130 asking. Because if you're asking 257 00:13:12,130 --> 00:13:15,250 somebody who's a board member or CEO like, they only have so much 258 00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:17,610 time too, and they likely are willing to help. 259 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,300 Maybe not, and you'd rather know that up front, but if they are 260 00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:23,340 like setting boundaries around that, and this is exactly what 261 00:13:23,340 --> 00:13:26,220 I'm asking, and I would love to offer this in return, there's so 262 00:13:26,220 --> 00:13:29,660 much strength to that. So I love that point, yeah. 263 00:13:29,660 --> 00:13:33,340 And and also having a mentor. I think a lot of people leave it 264 00:13:33,340 --> 00:13:36,460 way too late in their careers to have actually 2 mentors rather 265 00:13:36,460 --> 00:13:38,620 than one and in different parts of the business. 266 00:13:38,620 --> 00:13:41,260 Because sometimes you go where it's really easy and and you 267 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:44,540 pick up someone who's who's your champion but actually can't help 268 00:13:44,540 --> 00:13:47,220 you in your career and and those champions sometimes sits 269 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:48,960 elsewhere. What is the one thing that 270 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,600 retailers should be thinking about that they're not right? 271 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,120 More than ever it is the elongated season. 272 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,160 So prime day back to school, straight into holiday early 273 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,720 promos. We're talking a lot right now 274 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,400 about the Cyber 12 when we're talking to our clients. 275 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,760 It is not, you know, it's not Black Friday, Cyber Monday, it's 276 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,760 actually this is 12 day period where very specific things 277 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,320 happen on very specific days. When promos P what customers 278 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:19,040 were expecting those those expectations have shifted a lot 279 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,840 in the last few years and this year is really interesting. 280 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:24,240 It is behaving slightly differently. 281 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,200 Some of the patterns we're seeing the same holiday pulled 282 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,200 up and up and up. So you know we've already we're 283 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,960 starting holiday in October last year, right. 284 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,640 So it pulled up. There's also an element, though 285 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:42,030 of very conscious. Delay of purchase and so to and 286 00:14:42,030 --> 00:14:46,750 by that I mean I'm I'm planning, I'm a consumer, male consumers 287 00:14:46,750 --> 00:14:48,510 are are see we're seeing this even higher than female 288 00:14:48,510 --> 00:14:50,510 consumers. But I'm very intentionally 289 00:14:50,670 --> 00:14:52,390 planning to wait until the last bit. 290 00:14:52,750 --> 00:14:55,350 I'm very intentionally planning to wait for the next deal to 291 00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:58,150 come. And so I think that brands have 292 00:14:58,150 --> 00:15:03,470 trained their customer base on their promo cycle and so they're 293 00:15:03,550 --> 00:15:05,310 knew there are a lot, there's a lot of that happening. 294 00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:07,960 We're holding weight. Another way, and you can see 295 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,320 that coming out right now, is in conversion. 296 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,560 So no matter who you talk to and if you're in the retail industry 297 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:14,960 and listening, you're not the only one. 298 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,360 I promise your conversion path is longer. 299 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,320 It just is and it has been for the last 6 to 9 months and I 300 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,280 think everybody's going. It used to only take three touch 301 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,200 points, now it's taking six, now it's taking 8. 302 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,320 And you know there's a lot of panic around that, certainly. 303 00:15:28,780 --> 00:15:30,900 If you're talking about a site conversion versus an Instore 304 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:33,540 conversion, certainly there are things you can do to control 305 00:15:33,820 --> 00:15:37,700 your site experience, your checkout process if they are. 306 00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:41,900 If they want to shop on social, let them check out on social. 307 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:44,820 So you know those elements that I think people are looking at. 308 00:15:45,060 --> 00:15:47,500 But there's also a lot of behavior right now that is 309 00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:51,140 saying I'm considering my purchases for longer. 310 00:15:51,140 --> 00:15:54,670 My economic. Confidence is a little shaken 311 00:15:54,670 --> 00:15:56,790 right now. I need to plan my purchases in a 312 00:15:56,790 --> 00:15:58,950 different way. We saw a prime day, people 313 00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:02,430 buying back to school prime day. We also saw people buying 314 00:16:02,430 --> 00:16:06,350 holiday toys purchased a purchased that were going to be 315 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:09,790 held for holiday. And so that very conscientious 316 00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:13,390 process means that conversions are taking longer to happen. 317 00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:17,630 Also you mentioned TikTok, I think it is important to point 318 00:16:17,630 --> 00:16:19,790 out and like have the audience. So I want to say it. 319 00:16:21,050 --> 00:16:24,130 I believe strongly in TikTok, it was strongly in socials. 320 00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:27,730 It clearly hit in socials ability to build a broader 321 00:16:27,730 --> 00:16:31,450 customer base to reach new consumers and to convert and it 322 00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:33,130 doesn't just search to interrupt you. 323 00:16:33,130 --> 00:16:35,290 Would you, would you put that underneath the umbrella of 324 00:16:35,290 --> 00:16:38,290 community commerce or would you say that's something else? 325 00:16:39,090 --> 00:16:41,890 I would put it under the umbrella of Community Commerce. 326 00:16:42,010 --> 00:16:46,850 I think it's interesting. You look at community and I 327 00:16:46,850 --> 00:16:51,620 think there are. Social platforms that pull more 328 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:54,620 towards community and there's less towards community and I 329 00:16:54,620 --> 00:16:57,540 think about them, gosh, I I actually love Pinterest if 330 00:16:57,540 --> 00:17:00,220 they're listening I do and and when I I was on the brand side 331 00:17:00,220 --> 00:17:02,820 for quite a while about half my career has been inside brands 332 00:17:03,220 --> 00:17:06,540 and I believe strongly in Pinterest back then it kind of 333 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:09,380 quite convert. They've put so much in place now 334 00:17:09,380 --> 00:17:14,740 where it does convert and that's a very, a very specific like 335 00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:16,940 again talk about continuums, you have the continuum of. 336 00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:18,940 Your Facebook's clearly a community. 337 00:17:19,260 --> 00:17:21,420 Clearly you're having you doing meet up groups and you have 338 00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:23,300 mom's groups and there's so much going on there. 339 00:17:23,579 --> 00:17:27,339 You know Instagram, TikTok is is a faster pace to talk, 340 00:17:27,339 --> 00:17:29,580 significantly faster pace. And then the other kind of 341 00:17:29,580 --> 00:17:32,420 opposite into that spectrum is Pinterest where it's like a yes 342 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:33,820 there is some community happening but it's a very 343 00:17:33,820 --> 00:17:35,580 personal board. It's something I'm excited 344 00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:37,220 about. I'm building my wedding board. 345 00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:40,140 I'm building recipes for my family whatever those elements 346 00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:42,700 are and I think brands are figuring out how to monetize 347 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:45,060 that differently. So yes, I would say all of those 348 00:17:45,060 --> 00:17:49,410 have elements of community. The spectrum of your Facebook to 349 00:17:49,410 --> 00:17:56,130 your Pinterest with TikTok specifically though I guess it's 350 00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:59,450 true with Pinterest as well. But I would just say if they're 351 00:17:59,450 --> 00:18:02,130 coming from, you just have to think about people's mindset in 352 00:18:02,130 --> 00:18:05,170 that moment in TikTok, they're in the mindset of entertainment, 353 00:18:05,210 --> 00:18:07,330 they're in the mindset of discovery, right. 354 00:18:07,330 --> 00:18:10,490 They might not be in the mindset of purchasing right this moment 355 00:18:11,130 --> 00:18:14,330 and so the fact that that conversion is taking longer. 356 00:18:15,010 --> 00:18:17,010 Is fine. You are building a bigger base. 357 00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:18,490 You have to measure it differently. 358 00:18:18,850 --> 00:18:21,730 I think I'm seeing a lot of like I'm getting so much more social 359 00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:23,330 traffic. And then the question is always, 360 00:18:23,330 --> 00:18:26,610 is the traffic qualified? It is qualified in a different 361 00:18:26,610 --> 00:18:27,730 way. You're trying to build your 362 00:18:27,730 --> 00:18:29,490 base. You have to be able to have a 363 00:18:29,490 --> 00:18:32,010 recurring message and know that those conversions are going to 364 00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:34,530 take a bit longer because you're interrupting an entertainment 365 00:18:34,530 --> 00:18:37,770 path, interrupting a discovery path or you're leading them from 366 00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:39,650 a discovery path into a conversion path. 367 00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:41,250 It's just a very different I think. 368 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,200 Many brands and and retailers that advertisers are trying to 369 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,960 fit everything with the same model, same model measurement, 370 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,520 same model of assets aid and sub creative and and you really have 371 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,480 to be able to slice and dice it in a much more granular way, 372 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,440 understand who your customer bases and your potential 373 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,000 customers are on each one of these platforms. 374 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:07,960 When that's happening though, it's incredibly powerful, like 375 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,680 we are seeing massive lift in that area. 376 00:19:11,090 --> 00:19:14,610 If it is done with very specific audiences, very specific 377 00:19:14,610 --> 00:19:17,770 strategy and measurement. But the toughest part, I think, 378 00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:21,450 sometimes is the measurement, because organizations expect to 379 00:19:21,450 --> 00:19:23,010 report things in a very specific way. 380 00:19:23,170 --> 00:19:26,210 Well, I'm just. Gonna have some talk converting 381 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:30,090 so and I'm just curious from what your cuz I think the 382 00:19:30,090 --> 00:19:33,890 age-old problem has been the e-commerce director has always 383 00:19:33,890 --> 00:19:36,210 competed with the stores director and if you're lucky 384 00:19:36,210 --> 00:19:39,650 enough in some organizations it's the same person so it 385 00:19:39,650 --> 00:19:42,130 doesn't matter where the sale happens it's a sale for the 386 00:19:42,130 --> 00:19:45,610 company But I'm just curious in your because you talked about 387 00:19:45,610 --> 00:19:49,330 digital touch points and conversion I guess when you look 388 00:19:49,330 --> 00:19:53,010 at the path to purchase are you seeing are people worried that 389 00:19:53,010 --> 00:19:57,330 the IT won't convert online but it will convert offline is I 390 00:19:57,330 --> 00:20:00,170 mean or are people trying to tackle that in any I. 391 00:20:00,170 --> 00:20:02,770 Feel like we've had this conversation for like 8 years 392 00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:05,880 and also many organizations have moved forward. 393 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,440 What you just said is exactly right. 394 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:13,600 Like the concept of like Omni channel is such a that's our 395 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,320 language. You know customers don't think 396 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,400 that way. They expect you to have what 397 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,440 they want when they want it. They expect a good brand 398 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,240 experience no matter how they interact with you. 399 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,440 And if you sell, if you sell online and you sell in store and 400 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,000 you sell it Sephora, they expect their experience to be perfect. 401 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:33,200 So, so that's one piece of it. And I would say yes, most 402 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,920 organizations have realized that they have to shift forward that 403 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,960 a sale is a sale is a sale that a customer connecting their 404 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:46,360 customer base and data across retail and digital and wholesale 405 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,760 if possible, making sure that they actually understand who 406 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,320 that customer is like. I think everybody knows that 407 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,840 whether they've actually moved down the path to make the right 408 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,880 structure decisions and budget decisions, it's very different 409 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,380 question because you almost always have still in that Monday 410 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:04,260 morning meeting what happened in retail this weekend, what 411 00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:07,900 happened online, right. And and as long as we keep doing 412 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:12,540 that, as long as we measure things separately and don't have 413 00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:15,660 a more holistic view, you'll continue down this path that 414 00:21:15,660 --> 00:21:18,580 creates likely fractured customer experiences. 415 00:21:19,860 --> 00:21:22,740 But so, so that is happening. The other thing I see happening 416 00:21:22,740 --> 00:21:26,620 is so interesting where stores are doing really well right now, 417 00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:31,280 which makes it really happy. As a as a retail gal, I love 418 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,520 seeing stores succeed. I believe that store associates 419 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,760 and store managers know so much more about your customer than 420 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,520 they ever get credit for. And so I'm a big advocate of our 421 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,720 store associates, but because your data can only tell you so 422 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,840 much, by the way, call your store manager, they'll tell you, 423 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,200 they'll tell you what the data really means. 424 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,840 But anyway, I think there's an element now where stores are 425 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,560 doing really, really well over the past six months or so. 426 00:21:55,410 --> 00:21:57,290 People are very excited about that. 427 00:21:57,370 --> 00:22:01,290 And yet at the most senior levels, it's why is it digital 428 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:04,530 performing as well or better than in the past. 429 00:22:04,730 --> 00:22:07,690 Digital grew and grew and grew. So they're not seeing any 430 00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,650 element of trade off. They want everything to rise, 431 00:22:10,690 --> 00:22:13,730 everything to rise at the same pace and think about. 432 00:22:13,730 --> 00:22:16,890 And the biggest piece of that is they plan their years that way. 433 00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:21,340 They planned their budget last September for this year. 434 00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:23,500 Everything rising at the same pace. 435 00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:25,100 Stores are rising, rising, rising. 436 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:27,780 Sometimes those people are converting in store rather than 437 00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:30,220 digitally. And all of a sudden you've 438 00:22:30,220 --> 00:22:31,820 failed. You know, all of a sudden you're 439 00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:34,580 poor econ person, you've failed because it's going down or 440 00:22:34,580 --> 00:22:37,020 staying steady and not growing at this rapid pace. 441 00:22:37,580 --> 00:22:40,300 They're coming into the store. And if you look at almost any 442 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,580 organization who has their data connected will tell you if you 443 00:22:43,580 --> 00:22:47,610 have somebody shop in more than one channel, you have usually a 444 00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:50,130 three time higher lifetime value. 445 00:22:50,130 --> 00:22:53,250 It depends on the type of product of course, but it's 446 00:22:53,250 --> 00:22:56,530 significantly higher lifetime value if they shop in multiple 447 00:22:56,530 --> 00:23:01,530 places with you. So the idea of trying to capture 448 00:23:01,530 --> 00:23:04,450 them only in one place and keeping them only in one place 449 00:23:04,770 --> 00:23:07,410 is only a shortterm win. That's a win for your 450 00:23:07,650 --> 00:23:10,050 organizational silos. That is not a win for your 451 00:23:10,050 --> 00:23:12,290 company. And so I think I've seen healthy 452 00:23:12,290 --> 00:23:15,570 businesses, you know recognize that it's hard work though I I 453 00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:18,610 don't think, I think people aren't shifting their 454 00:23:18,610 --> 00:23:22,090 organizations and their P&L ownership and their teams and 455 00:23:22,090 --> 00:23:24,890 they're hiring because they don't know to. 456 00:23:24,890 --> 00:23:27,890 It's it's takes time and it's complicated. 457 00:23:27,890 --> 00:23:31,850 And when it comes down to it, A/C, EO often now a CMO more and 458 00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:34,850 more has to come in and go. Here's a longterm plan. 459 00:23:34,850 --> 00:23:35,970 Here's how we're getting after it. 460 00:23:36,210 --> 00:23:40,410 What we just discussed almost, Yep, I comped this day last year 461 00:23:40,750 --> 00:23:43,550 like they have to be reaching the short term goals and long 462 00:23:43,550 --> 00:23:45,790 term goals at the same time. And I think a lot of times the 463 00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:51,790 market doesn't have the patience to wait for the right kind of 464 00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:53,950 change to happen. And so they have, they have to 465 00:23:53,950 --> 00:23:56,430 make short term, long term goals at the same time and you see a 466 00:23:56,430 --> 00:23:58,310 lot of turnover at the sea level for that reason. 467 00:23:58,710 --> 00:24:00,670 Yeah. I mean, there's so many. 468 00:24:00,750 --> 00:24:02,910 There's two directions. I mean, one of the things about 469 00:24:02,910 --> 00:24:06,550 store associates, it always perplexed me how companies would 470 00:24:06,550 --> 00:24:08,700 spend. Thousands if not millions trying 471 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:12,460 to find social engagement out there where the biggest 472 00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:17,180 advocates who probably know and are fantastic customers are 473 00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:19,420 their own workforce. Especially for for some of the 474 00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:21,660 younger brands where you know you have to be up and called to 475 00:24:21,660 --> 00:24:23,780 work there and I'm sure they're tick tock accounts. 476 00:24:23,780 --> 00:24:27,020 But anyway that that's one thing I'm curious the intersection of. 477 00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:29,020 It's like conversational commerce, I don't know what you 478 00:24:29,020 --> 00:24:32,380 want, social commerce, whatever it's called, how is that 479 00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:34,740 growing? Obviously in China it dominates, 480 00:24:34,740 --> 00:24:37,180 that is, and everyone seeing the Tick Tock House. 481 00:24:37,420 --> 00:24:41,380 Where literally every room in that TikTok house is a is a 482 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:45,100 social seller selling something via that. 483 00:24:45,580 --> 00:24:48,700 How far away are we from that do you think in in the US 484 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,420 specifically? I think it is growing quickly 485 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:55,700 and with the biggest point I will the biggest thing I will 486 00:24:55,700 --> 00:25:00,660 point to is where there where a consumers entire journey 487 00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:03,130 happens. A couple years ago we had the 488 00:25:03,130 --> 00:25:05,770 data come out that was like oh wait a minute, they they went, 489 00:25:05,930 --> 00:25:09,330 they didn't go to Google, they went into Amazon first on 490 00:25:09,330 --> 00:25:11,490 Amazon, checked on and Amazon got out. 491 00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:15,650 That is now happening in social significantly at higher rates 492 00:25:15,650 --> 00:25:17,530 than it did in the past. So if I literally just look at 493 00:25:17,530 --> 00:25:19,970 it from a transactional standpoint and they're coming 494 00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:22,570 in, they're actually using TikTok for discovery. 495 00:25:22,570 --> 00:25:25,890 They're using it to actually get through the process to find a 496 00:25:25,890 --> 00:25:29,290 brand to go and transact. They're coming in through that 497 00:25:29,290 --> 00:25:32,790 Channel, converting through that Channel or converting from there 498 00:25:32,790 --> 00:25:35,670 to the site. That is when things really start 499 00:25:35,670 --> 00:25:38,790 to change because when you can monetize it, companies will lean 500 00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:41,510 into it, right. And this is an interesting one 501 00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:43,550 where the consumers are leading the way, which I want 502 00:25:44,550 --> 00:25:47,470 technology, I will give the tech folks credit, right. 503 00:25:47,470 --> 00:25:48,910 Technology had to lead the way first. 504 00:25:48,910 --> 00:25:53,110 It just wasn't there. Now that it is there, almost 505 00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:57,680 there to be able to genuinely be able to convert and buy the 506 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,800 product that you want, that you just thought this content 507 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,080 creator promote and you want to buy it right now and you're 508 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,120 super interested and you want it to deliver tomorrow. 509 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,800 The more that experience becomes frictionless, the more the 510 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,920 consumer wins because they're telling that they want the. 511 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:14,440 Discovery shopping as entertainment. 512 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,160 That's for me. Why I like yourself. 513 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:22,340 Massive TikTok advocate, because you have to talk to Deborah 514 00:26:22,340 --> 00:26:24,980 Weinswig and she's the founder. Of course I research. 515 00:26:24,980 --> 00:26:26,700 She has. I feel like she's such a 516 00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:28,500 soothsayer. She told me three years ago. 517 00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:30,300 Here's what's happening, China, here's what's gonna happen in 518 00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:34,140 the US You can almost to the month count on her prediction. 519 00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:37,740 So there's my advocacy mention of the day, and I go talk to 520 00:26:37,740 --> 00:26:39,340 Deb. One of the things that you 521 00:26:39,340 --> 00:26:42,460 mentioned, I just want to go back in terms of the conversion. 522 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,880 And what you were telling retailers, like I said, what's 523 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,200 the one thing that retailers should know that they don't know 524 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,720 and what should they be focusing on? 525 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,520 What is the guidance that you're giving them? 526 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,240 What? So what's the outcome of that? 527 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,640 You should be, your social strategy should be better than 528 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:57,520 it is. What is it? 529 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,640 The biggest piece I would say and I would have said it in the 530 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,160 second quarter, but it's still true now and it's doubly true 531 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,480 for 24 planning. You have to be testing like 20% 532 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,040 of your budget, constantly testing new things and having 533 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,040 you know much love for Google and meta having all your eggs in 534 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,600 that basket is not going to create monumentally different 535 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,200 outcomes. So that I think that element, it 536 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,760 it is not you know just your social strategies, better 537 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,720 structured testing you need you need testing infrastructure in 538 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,480 place the big enough budget to actually be able to measure it 539 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,960 with the understanding internally these are the exact 540 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,760 things we're testing at any given time. 541 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,040 We're going to test in. We're going to budget into 542 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,630 winners and be comfortable with failure. 543 00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:42,630 You know, you think about it and think about I worked with data 544 00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:44,790 folks for a long time and it's either right or wrong and they 545 00:27:44,790 --> 00:27:45,950 were perfectly comfortable with that. 546 00:27:45,950 --> 00:27:47,510 With marketers, we're like it was all good. 547 00:27:47,510 --> 00:27:51,030 There's always a good outcome. But what you learn from that, 548 00:27:51,270 --> 00:27:54,270 you know, structured testing within your marketing program, 549 00:27:54,270 --> 00:27:58,150 structured testing within your community building, when you do 550 00:27:58,150 --> 00:28:00,030 that, you can iterate so much faster. 551 00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:02,830 You get into the fourth quarter when prices are going to go up 552 00:28:02,830 --> 00:28:05,840 and up and up and your budget's not going to go as far. 553 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,280 And if all your eggs are in 2 baskets, it's very, very hard to 554 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,640 meet your goals. And so the the folks that I have 555 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,920 seen, they were the most successful last holiday season. 556 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,640 I see so much progression. You know, so many of the the 557 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,320 brands that we work with have spent all the first half of the 558 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,680 year testing into new means, determining what's going to work 559 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,120 for them, determining how they can get to new customers so that 560 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,440 when they get into fourth quarter, they actually have 561 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,600 levers to pull because so many brands, the only levers they 562 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,210 have to pull, so deeper discount which is not a winning 563 00:28:36,210 --> 00:28:39,530 proposition long term, just pour more and more money into the 564 00:28:39,530 --> 00:28:42,730 same two channels and that is just there's a diminishing 565 00:28:42,730 --> 00:28:46,490 returns there. So I think the answer is 566 00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:48,930 actually structure testing, which is not a super exciting 567 00:28:48,930 --> 00:28:51,890 answer, but it is what people need to do in order to get 568 00:28:51,890 --> 00:28:54,290 themselves ready for those moments when they have to be 569 00:28:54,290 --> 00:28:56,610 able to pull levers. Yeah, and it feels like. 570 00:28:56,610 --> 00:28:59,290 I know you mentioned the meta thing, but I actually read this. 571 00:28:59,690 --> 00:29:04,750 I think it was in one of your. Pieces of literature about how 572 00:29:04,790 --> 00:29:08,670 thread and I didn't know I saw know this, but I didn't put two 573 00:29:08,670 --> 00:29:10,990 and two together. Threads tagged to Instagram. 574 00:29:11,150 --> 00:29:13,270 So should you ever have a fallout with Threads, you 575 00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:17,150 actually have to delete your Instagram account, which is 576 00:29:17,150 --> 00:29:20,870 petrifying for any brand that you So five years building it 577 00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:24,790 and something may go haywire and you can't actually disconnect 578 00:29:24,790 --> 00:29:27,640 one from the other. It's been interesting to watch 579 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,240 how quickly of how excited everyone was and how quickly 580 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,320 that excitement kind of calmed down. 581 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,520 We do that a lot in the industry, which you know, we we 582 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,280 all love something new and we love, we love, you know the the 583 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,240 aspect of competition. But yes, within probably 24 to 584 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,600 48 hours of that announcement, when you're really dug through 585 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,800 all the details, you're like, wait a minute, when I set up 586 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,320 threads, it's attached to my actual Instagram account, 587 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,180 including for companies accounts and deleting 1 deletes the 588 00:29:55,180 --> 00:29:57,140 other. So they've said that they're 589 00:29:57,140 --> 00:30:00,460 working on a solution that would avoid that, but I have not seen 590 00:30:00,460 --> 00:30:02,420 it come yet. What is the sentiment in the 591 00:30:02,420 --> 00:30:04,620 retail industry? How are you finding people's 592 00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:08,580 perspective for for next year? It's interesting. 593 00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:11,060 I am. I think the first part of this 594 00:30:11,060 --> 00:30:14,100 year there was more doom and gloom than there is right now. 595 00:30:14,580 --> 00:30:18,020 I think this industry has become so resilient over the last few 596 00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:22,350 years like early COVID shutting all our stores and I was on the 597 00:30:22,350 --> 00:30:25,150 brand side at the time, right, like people going on furlough 598 00:30:25,150 --> 00:30:27,390 and you're trying to make sure that you're, you know at one 599 00:30:27,390 --> 00:30:29,950 point FedEx stop picking up and people couldn't get packages out 600 00:30:29,950 --> 00:30:32,670 of their warehouses. Like if you made it through that 601 00:30:32,670 --> 00:30:35,910 and you're in this industry like you are made of iron at this 602 00:30:35,910 --> 00:30:39,830 point. And so I think that that we as 603 00:30:40,110 --> 00:30:43,910 an industry are weathering those storms a lot better. 604 00:30:44,790 --> 00:30:48,270 One of the biggest things I would say though is that there 605 00:30:48,270 --> 00:30:53,460 is a big sentiment right now. Doing more with less you get by 606 00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:57,780 had to like summarize people's. That was the one catch phrase do 607 00:30:57,780 --> 00:31:02,140 more with yes. Yeah it's not pessimism while 608 00:31:02,140 --> 00:31:05,020 fear I think like I said, if you've been in this industry for 609 00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:06,860 a while, like nothing can scare you now, right? 610 00:31:07,620 --> 00:31:10,780 Fearless. But there is this element and 611 00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:15,940 almost anybody I talk to again, whether CEO, CMO, ECOM Manager, 612 00:31:15,940 --> 00:31:19,420 whoever it is, it's need to do more with less staff, need to do 613 00:31:19,420 --> 00:31:23,380 more with less resources. We need to, we're going to keep 614 00:31:23,380 --> 00:31:26,180 the budget exactly the same, but we need it to grow 40%. 615 00:31:26,780 --> 00:31:29,540 There's a lot of that going. On inflation, right? 616 00:31:29,540 --> 00:31:31,740 Somehow, yeah, I think some of it is that. 617 00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:36,540 I think some of it is that because we believed that 618 00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:39,900 consumers were demanding it because of fear at the time. 619 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,800 Organizations invested so much during COVID on everything. 620 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,760 They thought their customer might possibly want next day 621 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,440 delivery, same day delivery, curbside pickup, curated 622 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,880 dressing rooms before you walk in the door or you know service 623 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,800 after service after service, every one of those chips away at 624 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,680 margin. Some of them are vital for your 625 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,280 organization, some are not. And so it I think a lot of times 626 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,280 brands chase their competitors down the path or they believed 627 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,580 you know the read something in the media and they believe we 628 00:32:10,580 --> 00:32:13,220 have to go down this path or somebody on their board said why 629 00:32:13,220 --> 00:32:15,500 aren't we doing this yet, have to run down this path. 630 00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:19,220 And so now we got to the first part of this year and I still 631 00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:22,580 see a lot of that happening where it's like which of these 632 00:32:22,580 --> 00:32:24,700 things are the most important to our customers. 633 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:28,700 Does my customer actually want this to arrive two days? 634 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:31,780 Is that the most important thing and should I be spending $40, 635 00:32:32,420 --> 00:32:35,660 you know, a margin on that or is it more important that they have 636 00:32:35,660 --> 00:32:38,780 these other services that they have exclusive access to product 637 00:32:38,780 --> 00:32:41,380 for store, other things that are important to them. 638 00:32:41,660 --> 00:32:44,940 So I I think there's a lot of tradeoff conversations 639 00:32:44,940 --> 00:32:48,940 happening. There's a lot of upskilling 640 00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:52,420 staff, reskilling staff from a digital and data perspective, a 641 00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:55,020 lot of that happening. But all of it can kind of fall 642 00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:58,380 under this umbrella of like, it's not pessimism, it's almost 643 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,790 realism. And here's the reality, the 644 00:33:01,790 --> 00:33:04,190 finite resources, finite staffing. 645 00:33:04,510 --> 00:33:07,350 How can we reach more people, get more people into our 646 00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:11,110 customer base, grow our business with finite resources? 647 00:33:11,390 --> 00:33:14,350 I'm just curious in terms of your final thought, you know, 648 00:33:14,350 --> 00:33:18,190 maybe reflecting on the earlier part of our conversation and and 649 00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:21,870 the words of wisdom that you had, what would be your final 650 00:33:21,870 --> 00:33:24,710 thoughts or words of wisdom for anyone listening to the show? 651 00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:27,310 I love that. I think there are two things I 652 00:33:27,310 --> 00:33:32,540 have in mind. One is there are elements in any 653 00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:36,380 organization, any role, any industry that where there is a 654 00:33:36,380 --> 00:33:40,180 need that can be served Lean in, say yes, step up whether you 655 00:33:40,180 --> 00:33:43,660 know how to do it or not, like just say yes. 656 00:33:43,660 --> 00:33:47,380 I think leading into a new elements in your career, like 657 00:33:47,380 --> 00:33:50,140 there is no linear path. So if you're sitting there 658 00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:52,180 thinking I have to do these three things and then I'll get 659 00:33:52,180 --> 00:33:54,820 to this next level and it just doesn't exist. 660 00:33:54,820 --> 00:33:56,700 If you ask anybody who's been doing this for a couple of 661 00:33:56,700 --> 00:33:59,900 decades, as I have, and they will say is not a linear path. 662 00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:03,900 And so the more you can take in new experiences, ask people for 663 00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:08,580 advice, like really volunteer and put yourself out there. 664 00:34:09,060 --> 00:34:12,300 Sharonda Williamson, who is from Ralph Lauren, who is absolutely 665 00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:14,179 brilliant and you should definitely go follow her on 666 00:34:14,179 --> 00:34:17,219 LinkedIn, said that to me at one point that some of the biggest 667 00:34:17,219 --> 00:34:20,699 career shifts that she had was somebody saying nobody wants to 668 00:34:20,699 --> 00:34:23,340 do this job, will you do it? And her saying absolutely. 669 00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:26,620 So that is one element. The only other element is I 670 00:34:26,620 --> 00:34:30,500 would say there's so many ways in which you can connect with 671 00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:33,900 other people who can help in your career and who you can 672 00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:35,620 offer help to. So whether you do that 673 00:34:35,620 --> 00:34:38,980 informally through social networks, through LinkedIn, 674 00:34:38,980 --> 00:34:41,940 through you know the people in your organization or do you do 675 00:34:41,940 --> 00:34:44,340 that more formally, we're about to have shop talk meet up for 676 00:34:44,340 --> 00:34:46,219 women. It's a virtual event and we did 677 00:34:46,219 --> 00:34:49,580 that very intentionally to get that many more women who are 678 00:34:49,580 --> 00:34:52,580 able to speak and lead these table talks, these intimate 679 00:34:52,580 --> 00:34:55,500 sessions to answer questions. I'm going to be talking about 680 00:34:55,860 --> 00:34:58,140 navigating really tough challenges inside your 681 00:34:58,140 --> 00:34:59,940 organization and we're going to tell some truth. 682 00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:04,260 So those types of opportunities like lean into those sign up, go 683 00:35:04,260 --> 00:35:07,700 have this conversations like it's not just about like 684 00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:10,780 advocating for yourself in your career, which is also vital, 685 00:35:10,780 --> 00:35:14,940 it's also volunteer. Jump in if you see a need. 686 00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:18,060 Fill the void and I guarantee you you will learn something 687 00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:20,940 from that, and it often will help you determine what that 688 00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:23,900 next step should be for you. Yeah, I don't have to say this, 689 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:26,860 but I genuinely feel, Sarah, some of those words of wisdom 690 00:35:26,860 --> 00:35:29,700 will change people's lives. In a really positive way. 691 00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:31,380 So thank you. Thank you for reach out to 692 00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:35,780 anybody who listens and just needs advice or or would like to 693 00:35:35,780 --> 00:35:38,460 connect. I'm I'm so glad to talk to you 694 00:35:38,460 --> 00:35:40,460 Alex. You do phenomenal things for 695 00:35:40,460 --> 00:35:42,220 this industry and I really appreciate you. 696 00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:44,100 Thank you. I look forward to seeing you at 697 00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:46,420 Shop Talk next year. Thanks.