1
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,120
Hello and welcome to the Retail 
Podcast. 

2
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,200
Jay Topper, who we'll talk to in
one second, the Chief Customer 

3
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,200
Officer at Fabric. 
Jay, for those who don't know 

4
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:23,200
Fabric or don't know yourself, 
if you don't mind just giving us

5
00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:26,560
maybe a career background and 
then tell us a recap on what 

6
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:27,880
Fabric does. 
Sure. 

7
00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,680
And Alex, thank you for having 
me as well. 

8
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:31,680
I've been super looking forward 
to this. 

9
00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,040
I've listened to many of your 
podcasts, so thank you. 

10
00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,040
My career. 
I started out in the United 

11
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,720
States military, so I served in 
our Army and our Coast Guard up 

12
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:48,200
and through about 1997 and then 
from 1997 to 2024. 

13
00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:54,800
I primarily worked for retailers
Rosetta Stone, Kroger, FTD, The 

14
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:58,280
Flower Company, and most 
recently Chico's FAS in a 

15
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,920
variety of roles from CIO to CTO
to COO to Chief Digital Officer.

16
00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,760
Most recently as my last two 
tours of duty, I put fabric in 

17
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,840
when I was at Chico's FAS. 
I was a super early adopter and 

18
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,400
it was a very, it was a 
partnership because the 

19
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,760
heartbeat of the entire suite of
products there is is the OMS, 

20
00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,440
the order management system. 
And we partnered together to 

21
00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,120
breathe life into something that
would serve a multi billion 

22
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,480
dollar multi channel Omni 
channel retailer that had a lot 

23
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,720
of complexities, but that the 
rest of the market would 

24
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,480
embrace. 
And it was wildly successful. 

25
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,240
We were bought by Sycamore 
Partners. 

26
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,280
We went from public to private 
and I exited the company along 

27
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,600
with our other sea levels. 
I contracted for fabric for two 

28
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,560
or three months. 
I did some blogs and some 

29
00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,080
content and just I've always 
fallen in love with the product 

30
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,400
from both experience and 
spending years with them. 

31
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,960
And then so now I work as a 
chief customer officer and in 

32
00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,680
short, Fabric is an ecommerce 
platform. 

33
00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,440
It's a composable headless. 
It cheques those boxes. 

34
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,960
I think what makes it uniquely 
special from my standpoint is a 

35
00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,560
few things. 
Number one is it was, it was 

36
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,720
built from the ground up as 
composable and cloud native and 

37
00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,200
it's very empowering to the end 
users. 

38
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,760
So in the retail industry, time 
is super precious. 

39
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,000
Margins are sometimes tight. 
So the faster you can speed up 

40
00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,360
and the smarter you can speed up
the experience of the end users 

41
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,080
to then serve in turn serve 
their customers, the better. 

42
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,000
While certainly it has the the 
checkout and price and promotion

43
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,960
drop ship. 
And I think the two flagship 

44
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,760
products are are the product 
catalogue and the order 

45
00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,520
management system, which a lot 
of people start with and then 

46
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,080
and then go on to put the other 
aspects of the platform in 

47
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,400
place. 
It can be very in a very 

48
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,720
incremental approach. 
So what's keeping everyone awake

49
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,080
right now when you're meeting 
new or prospective or your 

50
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,600
existing customers? 
What's top of mind right now in 

51
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,600
in your world? 
Yeah, that's a great question. 

52
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,320
I think there's a couple things 
that come to mind. 

53
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,000
And again, I I speak from 
someone who was in the buyer's 

54
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,320
chair for 27 years and, and had 
a lot, have a lot of peers and 

55
00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,160
friends in the industry. 
And so I, I left from 1:00 to 

56
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,680
the next. 
And it's that empathy that that 

57
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:16,720
drives me. 
And I think, I think there's a 

58
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,880
few things. 
One is, it's, it's a bit of an 

59
00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,280
unknown market right now. 
And when we head into Q4 

60
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,720
especially and with the election
and yes, Covid's behind us, but 

61
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,760
there's been a little bit of 
instability even since then with

62
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,840
inflation and all these other 
macro things, people are are 

63
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,280
hunkered down a little bit. 
And so that leads to really 

64
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,280
helping customers understand 
why, what problem are they 

65
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,400
trying to solve and then how 
because a lot of companies are 

66
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,920
are stuck in legacy monoliths or
sometimes even composable 

67
00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,960
platforms that require an 
incredible amount of technology 

68
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,720
to manage. 
And whatever their situation 

69
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,320
might be in it could be anything
from TCO to to to Omni channel. 

70
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,960
I'm, I'm a, I'm a freak when it 
comes to what Omni channel 

71
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,800
really is and what it really 
means. 

72
00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,160
They're trying to get out of 
some sort of box and, and how 

73
00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,960
become super complicated. 
Like how can I replace this big 

74
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,800
thing with these little things 
that add up without putting huge

75
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,279
risk to my business? 
And I think there's pent up 

76
00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,440
demand actually. 
And and people want to be shown 

77
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,520
the way I get more involved in 
how to architect the story to 

78
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,880
their executives or their boards
or their CEO's, which is what 

79
00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,200
I've done my entire career. 
And then lastly, they want 

80
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,600
empathetic partners because I'm 
not a salesperson. 

81
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,400
I'm never going to be a 
salesperson. 

82
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,880
I'm 63 and that ship has long 
sailed. 

83
00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,680
But I can't empathise with 
people because I've sat in all 

84
00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,680
their chairs and I've replaced 
100 platforms in my career. 

85
00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,680
I actually counted them not too 
long ago. 

86
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,760
You have to 1st figure out why 
and is there actually a problem 

87
00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,440
to solve and then you have to 
figure out the how and then you 

88
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,640
have to articulate it and, and 
then it gets to execution, which

89
00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,440
is a whole nother can of worms. 
That's the the most exciting 

90
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,040
part to me of a RE platform. 
So. 

91
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,560
In terms of the things that 
you've mentioned, Omni channel 

92
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,080
obviously is one element, cost 
is another element. 

93
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,520
What am I missing in terms of 
the the the the things that are 

94
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,640
top of mind for for your 
customers right now? 

95
00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,680
I think Omni channel cost and I 
think is companies are getting 

96
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,280
more myopic on what the they, 
you know, it's like you know, 

97
00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:32,640
you have revenue and EBITDA and 
then under that you have 

98
00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,320
conversion traffic and AOV and 
gross margin and then down below

99
00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,760
that the things that feed that. 
I think the concept of outcome 

100
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,960
based technology investments 
which people have always talked 

101
00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,680
about, but it's becoming a lot 
more ingrained. 

102
00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,560
So I think business performance 
along along with the cost and 

103
00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,040
Omni channel are are real keys. 
They have to see the tie. 

104
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,800
There's only so much 
discretionary spend a company 

105
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,680
can make. 
Infrastructure costs are often 

106
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,440
non ROI. 
So that makes the pool even 

107
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,120
smaller. 
And so every dollar that you 

108
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,840
spend there, you want to spend 
it where you're going to get the

109
00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:11,600
most return. 
So that outcome based 

110
00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,520
implementations are, are are are
much more, we're much more 

111
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,000
focused now on outcomes and 
metrics than we ever have been 

112
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,800
before. 
I got you and and most of your 

113
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:26,240
customers like is it on site, 
off site, is it in the cloud or 

114
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,680
is it a mix in terms of what 
that where their infrastructure 

115
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,280
sits? 
It's it's a mix actually, I 

116
00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:36,400
think sometimes they're, they're
cloud based monoliths. 

117
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,240
I there are still a lot of home 
grown systems out there. 

118
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,840
In fact, some, many of the 
customers I speak to, I think 10

119
00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:46,640
or years ago, I built my own 
e-commerce platform a couple 

120
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,280
companies ago because there 
really wasn't a micro service 

121
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,840
based modular one that was prime
time yet. 

122
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,960
And, and I think at this point 
in time it, I don't want to use 

123
00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,320
the word commodity necessarily, 
but the e-commerce platform 

124
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,080
itself is the way it's getting 
priced, the way it's getting 

125
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,560
implemented has become a little 
bit more commoditized than it 

126
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,120
has been in the past. 
And I think, I think we're 

127
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:11,760
seeing that. 
And so I think you're going to 

128
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,520
see pricing eventually become a 
little bit more commoditized and

129
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,800
then it gets down to, all right,
what's the difference and how 

130
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,160
you're going to impact my end 
users and my customers. 

131
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,080
Yeah. 
Well, I mean, and let me ask you

132
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,560
the tough question that a lot, 
you know, obviously again, I'm 

133
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,000
sure you've had this question a 
few times, but you know when I'm

134
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,120
looking at who I'm going to be 
placing my business with because

135
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,280
you are running the heart of the
business, right. 

136
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,280
For a lot of commerce, the 
e-commerce engine is the growth 

137
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,520
engine. 
What do you think makes fabric 

138
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,960
special or unique in that sense?
Obviously the headless element, 

139
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:49,680
I've got the flexibility, it's 
composable, but what's your 

140
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:50,240
opinion? 
What? 

141
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:51,600
What's the thing? 
Why do you win? 

142
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,440
What's the reasons you win? 
Yeah. 

143
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,400
I mean, I and we did win. 
We, we had remarkable results 

144
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,080
putting fabric in end to end and
we actually ran it head to head 

145
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,880
against the legacy platform over
peak at the direction of our 

146
00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,920
Chief Financial Officer because 
he wanted proof. 

147
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,640
And so during the busiest 
season, we actually run a split.

148
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:11,600
And I think there's a couple 
things. 

149
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,800
Number one is it was it it's it 
was definitely built from a 

150
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,760
cloud native composable 
standpoint. 

151
00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,360
So there's a lot of companies 
that are trying to move to micro

152
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,760
services from monolith. 
I've been there done that. 

153
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,640
It is incredibly hard. 
So it's native. 

154
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,680
So you get all the things like 
active active where there's 

155
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,560
where if one goes down 
immediately, another picks up. 

156
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,520
You get the auto scaling over 
peak. 

157
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,000
You don't have to add more 
servers. 

158
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,720
You get all that stuff. 
I think two things make fabric 

159
00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,600
unique and why I pick them and 
why I now work for them. 

160
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,039
One is the power to the end 
user. 

161
00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:46,640
So if you're a site merchant and
you need to make regular sites, 

162
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,840
pricing updates, product updates
to your site price, product 

163
00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,520
promotion presentation, you're 
dialling those things every day 

164
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,720
during peak, sometimes four and 
five war rooms a day where you 

165
00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,720
have to make changes. 
You can't go to development to 

166
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,200
ask for changes. 
You need to have that power at 

167
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,960
your fingertips and eventually 
AI giving you recommendations of

168
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,600
what to do. 
So you don't have to go run a 

169
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,880
report 1st and then come back 
and then and then move those 

170
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,600
dials So you have the the power 
with the end user. 

171
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,800
So that's always top of mind for
us because they're serving their

172
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,560
customers. 
So we not only have to be 

173
00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:23,160
empathetic to, to to them, but 
also to what they're trying to 

174
00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,800
do for their customers, which 
we're a step removed from. 

175
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,000
And then the second thing is we 
listen and they listen to me as 

176
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,840
a customer. 
And it's bringing that empathy 

177
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,160
to the table where a lot of our 
customers that are are super 

178
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,360
smart and the problems they're 
trying to solve, sometimes 

179
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,280
they're the same problems we're 
trying to solve. 

180
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,560
So there's a lot of Co 
innovation and Co design that 

181
00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:46,560
takes place. 
So we really harness our 

182
00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,640
customers well to help advance 
our product. 

183
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,480
We do almost not. 
The voice of the customer is 

184
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,400
very strong inside of our 
company and companies lose that 

185
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,480
over time. 
And we're still relatively 

186
00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,280
small. 
We play big, but we're five 

187
00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:04,040
years old and, and, and I'm 
fiercely protective of keeping 

188
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,600
that culture as, as we grow 
well. 

189
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,600
What's in terms of going back to
Omni Channel 1 of the things I, 

190
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,360
I, I travelling the world and 
going to these conferences, some

191
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,640
of the executives at retailers, 
I, I hear them talk about their 

192
00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,840
frustrations with digital 
touchpoints expanding and 

193
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,080
conversion expanding. 
Whereas in the past, maybe if 

194
00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,080
you were lucky, you would get a 
customer at 7 digital 

195
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,200
touchpoints and then they would 
convert. 

196
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,840
So conversion used to happen a 
lot faster. 

197
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,360
And again, this is more of a 
question than a statement. 

198
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,520
I'm just curious, have you seen 
that too in terms of is 

199
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,760
conversion taking longer? 
And if it is, again, what are 

200
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,080
some of the things from your 
perspective that you could sort 

201
00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,240
of bake into your e-commerce 
strategy that could help with 

202
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,160
basically converting customers, 
I presume off the, the, the 

203
00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,400
plethora of platforms in social 
and the, the, the, the, the 

204
00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,720
multitude of digital touch 
points that exist out there? 

205
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,280
Yeah, First I'll just ground, 
you know of what Omni channel is

206
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,760
to me. 
And so Omni channel is to me is 

207
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:15,320
it's bringing the promise of the
brand and the consistency of 

208
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,640
that promise of the brand at 
every single step in the 

209
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,640
process, whether it's physical 
or digital. 

210
00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,280
And there's huge opportunities 
to bring digital into the 

211
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,760
physical into the store, amazing
things that can happen there and

212
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:31,160
bringing the the physical to the
digital like in clienteling. 

213
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:37,200
And and so from from my 
standpoint, the it's not so much

214
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,360
there are more touches, but I 
think the art and the science is

215
00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,560
in understanding the impact of 
one touch to another. 

216
00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,160
And that can be complex because 
it's multi touch attribution, 

217
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:55,600
but and a lot of times you have 
marketing finance and data are 

218
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,240
are presenting different ways to
measure the effect of marketing 

219
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,840
spend because marketing spend is
the hugest variable cost above 

220
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,280
the line that there is. 
You can dial it up and down all 

221
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,360
day long. 
So the more accurate you can 

222
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,240
understand the impact of that, 
not just to your site, but 

223
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,120
people that are going into the 
store and people that go to 

224
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,400
stores that are then going to 
the site because the vast 

225
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,920
majority of multi channel 
customers start in the store and

226
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,360
then go online. 
Second, they don't start online 

227
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,160
and go into the store. 
So figuring out a a model, it 

228
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,760
can be simple that can measure 
that, that all three of those 

229
00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,600
groups agree on marketing, 
finance and technology. 

230
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,960
So you can start to get a 
baseline of the impact of those 

231
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,680
different channels let's you 
then invest more smartly in the 

232
00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:42,080
ones that are driving the most 
downstream ramifications. 

233
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:46,480
You know, for example, you know,
social may impact e-mail, but 

234
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,480
PLA's may be the thing that 
actually drives more people into

235
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,280
the store or whatever the the 
formula happens to be. 

236
00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:56,360
So you have to measure them and 
you can't get caught up too far 

237
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,600
because the data people will get
to in the weeds. 

238
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,280
The marketing people want to 
validate their spend and the 

239
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,200
finance people just want to see 
results. 

240
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:08,000
So if you can come together on a
super simple model, then you can

241
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,440
start to, to dial that, that 
variable marketing a little more

242
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,720
efficiently than in the past. 
And I think that's absolutely 

243
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,400
critical. 
I'm I'm a big fan of of of 

244
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,160
optimising variable marketing. 
You, you mentioned data in, in 

245
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,240
terms of the data teams. 
Do you have a preference in 

246
00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,120
which data platforms you work 
with or play with or are you 

247
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,360
agnostic to that? 
How, how? 

248
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,440
How does the platform manage? 
Yeah. 

249
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,960
So I'm a little bit jaded in 
this regard. 

250
00:13:34,560 --> 00:13:37,240
So where I've I've built and 
bought a lot of things in my 

251
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,000
career. 
I'm not a hands on technologist.

252
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,320
So I'm unemotional about it. 
Most of the successes I've had a

253
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,160
a lot of the things like when 
you think about a customer data 

254
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,040
platform, building that 
ourselves what and then layering

255
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,000
tools that are third party tools
on top of that was generally 

256
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,040
speaking the the smart way to 
go. 

257
00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:01,000
So we, we were, I was for two, 
the last three, the last three 

258
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,160
assignments. 
I was a big fan of GCP putting 

259
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,760
my data in there and then and 
then layering some other tools 

260
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,120
on top of that to help with the 
segmentation, the audience 

261
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,520
building, the, the, the, the MTA
analysis, things like that to 

262
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,200
help drive it. 
But there's a lot of products 

263
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,240
out there, but you have to be 
careful because they, they're 

264
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:24,440
also, I mean, all products, they
all have their own PNLS. 

265
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,440
They're all trying to drive 
their businesses and getting 

266
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,040
what they're doing in line with 
what you're trying to do. 

267
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,720
And being confident that that's 
going to March down a certain 

268
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,320
way over the next two or three 
years is critical because if 

269
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,600
they start to diverge, then you 
start to lose that power. 

270
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,280
And data to me is like the last 
bastion of what is absolutely 

271
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,720
special to an organisation. 
So where I would buy almost 

272
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,720
everything else around that, I 
like to fiercely protect and own

273
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,600
as much as reasonable as I can 
of that part of the ecosystem. 

274
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,800
What's your? 
Spidey sense telling you in 

275
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,560
terms of the future of E com and
where the market is going? 

276
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,480
Yeah, I think there's two things
and I'll save the obvious one 

277
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,600
for a second. 
So I'm when I think of stores, 

278
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,280
this is very anecdotal, but 
it'll put a highlight on it. 

279
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,560
If you think about a website 
first you come into a website 

280
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,880
and you know exactly where a 
person is on that website. 

281
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,360
You know when they went into the
cart, you know if they left the 

282
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,640
cart, you know how many images 
they looked at. 

283
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,480
You know if they bought. 
The way the cameras are set up 

284
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,040
in stores now, there's no reason
why you can't have that same 

285
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,600
instantaneous type of reporting 
in a store. 

286
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,640
You know what clothes they went 
and looked at. 

287
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,160
You know when they went in the 
backroom to try something on. 

288
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,720
You know when you're in line, 
how long they stayed in line, 

289
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,440
Did they leave the store without
buying? 

290
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,760
So bringing that digital mindset
into the store where you're 

291
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,520
rapidly looking at information 
and data, moving product around 

292
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,440
the store, looking at 
demographics, they're right 

293
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,440
there on, on the camera that you
can really start to bring the, 

294
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,840
the speed and the, and the 
quickness of what's going on in 

295
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,200
the digital world into the 
store. 

296
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,520
And it works the opposite way as
well with clienteling, bringing 

297
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,360
the charm of the store into the 
digital world. 

298
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,640
But I, I am a believer and it 
sounds trite because I'm a, I'm 

299
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,280
a cautious believer, but an 
absolute believer. 

300
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,280
And what I mean by that in AI 
and, and, and I think it's 

301
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,560
broader than the sexy things we 
hear about personalization every

302
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,080
day and things like that. 
I think there's, I think it's 

303
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,960
real. 
I think it's going to dwarf like

304
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,080
the concept of cloud, you know, 
was a concept a long time ago. 

305
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,640
But I think AI is, is here to 
stay. 

306
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,680
And I think the, the complex 
part is picking how and where it

307
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,120
fits your business. 
I think 2 places being 

308
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,880
overlooked a little bit or or 
not as maybe out front in the, 

309
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,280
in the, in the realm of the sexy
AI is 1 is, is back to the 

310
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,560
example I gave is what's 
happening inside of these 

311
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,200
platforms for the employees that
when I think about running an 

312
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,320
e-commerce site, you know, you, 
you run a report, you say, hey, 

313
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,200
what sold? 
What was my gross margin on 

314
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,080
that? 
What was my this OK, I see that,

315
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,480
oh, I got too much inventory 
here. 

316
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,800
Let's go back and move these 
instead of really putting all 

317
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,599
this intelligence at the power 
inside the power of the platform

318
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,079
to enable the ND. 
Just like you want stores to go 

319
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:13,560
faster, you need digital to go 
faster because to me, speed is 

320
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,200
king. 
And then you have the back 

321
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,760
office, not back office, but in 
house functions like planning 

322
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,960
and allocation, how much product
to buy, where to deploy it, what

323
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,880
you should be paying for it, 
what you should be charging for 

324
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,560
it. 
You know, long before it even 

325
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,720
gets in front of the customer, 
let alone what should I be 

326
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,280
designing for the customer In 
fashion, you get a lot of things

327
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,640
that are are starting to be more
and more intelligent to help you

328
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,120
design buying clothing and 
accessories and what type of 

329
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:42,920
beauty products are next. 
So I think there's going to be a

330
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,400
lot of trial and error. 
And I think if you have a super 

331
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,960
nimble platform, you can try 
more things more frequently. 

332
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,960
Getting back to what we said, 
but there's no question that if 

333
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,800
you're not spending 20% of your 
time think as a executive 

334
00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,440
thinking and, and analysing and 
even testing and trying, you 

335
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,120
know, AI based things that can 
help move the business of the 

336
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,680
problems you're trying to solve.
I think you're missing out here.

337
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:12,040
I, I think this is going to be a
wave that is, is rote within the

338
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,280
next, you know, 5 or 10 years or
even two to three years in some 

339
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,720
cases. 111 question that does 
come to mind and it's like 

340
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,280
inertia, right? 
People specifically with 

341
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,160
platforms such as their 
e-commerce, they're so scared to

342
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,400
look at re platforming or moving
away. 

343
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,760
And so therefore they know it 
sucks, but they sort of like is 

344
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,640
it does it suck enough, right? 
Or is it or is it less sucky 

345
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,760
this year than it was that year 
because everything's tied in a 

346
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,720
monolith central mainframe 
somewhere because it's too big 

347
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,920
to to change. 
What do you say to those 

348
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,600
customers that come to you like,
you know where they're like 

349
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:53,240
they're Yeah, what do you say? 
I got to tell you, I, I, I've 

350
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,960
done a lot of re platforms and, 
and usually I, I'm not the guy 

351
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,640
they bring in to maintain 
things. 

352
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,200
I'm the guy they bring in when a
material transformation is 

353
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:03,760
needed. 
Every company I've been to, 

354
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,440
massive transformations have 
taken place and I think it's 

355
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,200
thrilling. 
And, and I, I'm not, I'm not 

356
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,960
pitching this. 
I have a ten part blog series I 

357
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,960
did on re platforming from end 
to end that we're going to put 

358
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,960
into an e-book here pretty soon.
But I think it's thrilling. 

359
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,000
I think figuring the problems 
you're trying to solve, figuring

360
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,720
out the ecosystem and the 
platforms and the Sis and then 

361
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,440
de risking the implementation 
and having metrics and data as 

362
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,800
your sort of foundation. 
I, I think it's thrilling and, 

363
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,600
and there's always risk. 
And every day you wake up, 

364
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,880
what's the biggest risk today? 
Knock that risk down. 

365
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,200
And then you got another bigger 
risk. 

366
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,800
Knock that one down. 
It's, I don't know, it's what 

367
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,760
our job is. 
I mean, we have to evolve and we

368
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,040
have to evolve quickly in this 
world. 

369
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,880
So to me, I, I, there is a lot 
because retail still has a lot 

370
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,280
of old school in it, a lot of 
people that are very brick and 

371
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,600
mortar focused to this day. 
And getting that digital first 

372
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,680
mentality is it's a thrilling, 
you know, it's a thrilling 

373
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,120
transfer, personal 
transformation for a human to go

374
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,960
through. 
And I went through it long ago 

375
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,040
at Rosetta Stone and got wrapped
around the customer. 

376
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,800
And, and the concept of digital 
and I just think it's thrilling.

377
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,680
So I try to help them, you know,
be able to be comfortable that 

378
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,720
you can de risk this. 
It is a if there's art, but it's

379
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,360
a science. 
You succeed or fail, you know, 

380
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,080
based on the prep work you do 
upfront and then you execute 

381
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,440
like crazy, pivot when you need 
to and you'll get there. 

382
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,720
I don't know. 
It's I do hear it on an awful 

383
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,320
lot, though. 
There is trepidation, but I just

384
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,640
get excited about the whole 
thing. 

385
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,880
I mean, and that's good because 
that's what people will want, 

386
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,480
you know, when they're going 
through the process. 

387
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,200
I've just, I've seen it from 
both sides and I think it's a 

388
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,080
double whammy coming back from 
China in terms of this post 

389
00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,840
digital world where they are, 
everything has transformed. 

390
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,360
Everything is E enabled or 
e-commerce enabled. 

391
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,600
I think retailers in Europe and 
in the US will get a double 

392
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,760
whammy of, you know, the 
competitors can go faster and 

393
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:15,120
their physical stores are not 
engaging or entertaining and 

394
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,760
they can't convert as much as 
they need to convert. 

395
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,320
And so then they're left in, in 
some of the horror stories that 

396
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,960
we, we hear in, in, in the news 
about retail. 

397
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,040
Jay, thank you so much. 
I, I want to be sensitive to the

398
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,440
time that we agreed for the 
podcast. 

399
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,080
It's been an absolute blast. 
Are you, are you guys doing any 

400
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,160
of the, I know you are NRF, are 
you doing NRF this year as well?

401
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,480
Or we are, we're doing NRF. 
We have some special things 

402
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:45,360
planned for NRF. 
We're doing Shop Talk Chicago. 

403
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,560
We could have, I'll be at shop 
talk. 

404
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,760
We could have done it in person.
Yeah, that'd be great. 

405
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,920
Alex. 
It was a pleasure. 

406
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,800
Thank you for having me. 
Thanks a lot, Jake.