Hello and welcome back to the Retail Podcast.
Now today we're going to take a slight detour from our
traditional focus on retail technology and what's going on
in the world of retail customer experience data and AI and
actually look at product. I'm joined by Liam White, Doctor
Wills who Liam is the CEO of and cofounder of a basically
condiment business. But they're probably one of the
fastest growing condom in businesses in the UK, if not the
fastest growing. And they are already available
in grocers such as Tesco's. But this isn't about condiments,
this is about our lives, about sugar, about sustainability,
about B Corp. But Liam, before we get into all
of that, I'd love to sort of unpack who you are, how you got
here and actually to help us what what I'm doing, we're
launching a retail news website and it's retail news dot A I and
it'll be launched somewhere in the summer.
And what what we're doing is using obviously A I to produce
the content 10 and all the other things.
So I asked the A I to give me a view of you.
So I'm hoping this is in in light.
So let me read it to you. And actually the first part
talks about Doctor Wills, UK's first all natural condiment
brand. And this is Liam, the cofounder
and CEO of Doctor Wills introduced the brand as a maker
of naturally sweet and delicious products that demonstrate
superiority of natural sugar sources over artificial
alternatives. And actually really topical
because that was in the news this week with one of the major
beverage companies being infected with the use of the
artificial sweetener and one of their products.
But let's get down to who you are.
Sorry I got it wrong. It's available at Tesco's
Waitrose, Ocado, Holland and Barra and independent farm shops
and delis up and down the countries there you are.
Liam's professional background includes JPMorgan McKenzie,
Credit Suisse, Rothschild and A and a testimonial on your page
braces Liam passion for his days like it's funny.
But anyway, your passion in in bringing innovative and healthy
products to market. So how do you go from banking to
making a a better eating environment for the UK
population? Yeah, it's probably not the most
traditional journey. Interestingly, there's a
surprising number of like ex investment banking food founders
in the UK. I've come across a handful when
I've been at kind of, you know, networking events and things
like that. So although it sounds like a
very odd, nontraditional journey, there are a few others
doing it. And yeah, I started my career
after a series of internships at JP Morgan.
Unanimous there in investment banking, which is pretty.
Tough working environment, You work really hard, lots of hours
and yeah, like really interesting place to work.
But I quickly realized that I was quite entrepreneurial.
I've always had aspirations to run my own business and I also
like working in kind of larger companies is quite hierarchical
and it takes a long time to kind of work your way up.
And I wanted to kind of move a bit quicker than that if I
could. My mom is a food writer, so
there's some personal inspiration there.
And so it kind of grew up like surrounded by lots of good food
and interested in interested in what's on the supermarket
shelves but also in kind of restaurants and kind of end of
the TIF cuisine. And then, yeah, a couple of
years into the bank journey, I met Will and Josh, who are my
business partners, who had the idea for essentially A healthier
range of condiments. So.
We were looking looking at the the market and seeing that
everything was was getting healthier.
So if you look at snacks we were going from crisp and chocolate
to protein bars and popcorn and you know graze with nuts things
like that. And then there was also this
whole craft scene that was going wild.
So craft beers and like, you know, gin distilleries popping
up all over the place, Fever Tree doing an amazing job with
the mixers and we just kind of realized that, you know, people
were trying to make that plate as healthy as possible.
But we're sort of unaware of just, you know, they're adding
the same source, same condiments they've added for years and
years and often they're loaded with sugar.
And we just thought we could do a better job, but equally use
the best quality ingredients and make them really, really tasty
at the same time. Because that's, you know, that's
that's the purpose of a condiment.
And that was the air back in 2017 when we started our journey
and and I assume you're still your Forbes 30 under 30, you're
still under 30. I'm 30, so thankfully,
thankfully you keep it even when you were.
When you get there, they don't. They don't just say, well,
actually, no, I'm 30 and 30 anyway.
I was 28 when I got it. Yeah, OK, all right.
That explains it. If you were being able to go
back to younger self and have a chat with him to help him get to
where you are now, what would you like to say to him?
What would you say to him? Yeah, I think.
I think you often get really caught up in the minutia of your
of your day today and you know problems that are absolutely
problems and things that have, you know, big challenges for you
at that time, you know undoubtedly will get solved and
when you kind of zoom out, I think you know.
So as you get hung up on quite small things and I think I would
just try and just enjoy every, you know, each, each phase of my
life and you know, everybody. Says to, you know when you're at
university somewhere a few years old, it says, you know these
might be the best in your life. Enjoy them and all that kind of
stuff. And you sort of listen to them
and sort of not a long ago and you really taken that stuff.
And I think I would just, yeah try and try and listen to listen
to that advice as much as possible and just, you know like
just enjoy every stage of the journey for what it is and yeah,
not get, not get too hung up on kind of where you're headed and
things like that. I think if you know if you work
hard and you have a, you have a bit of a plan.
You know, those things can can fall into place.
And I think, yeah, I think lots of us are sometimes like too
guilty of being like really, really obsessed with you know,
obsessed with. With.
Yeah, for sure. Definitely in terms of putting
that in terms of and obviously you're just 30, right.
So I don't want to like, you know, the guest that I just
recorded an interview with was obviously in his 50s.
And so you know there's there's that journey and I think it's
important to to to reflect on that it is a journey that people
are on. But I'm curious from a from a
business perspective raising capital, doing everything, what
are the lessons that you've learned because you've done the,
the, the biggest, you've jumped that biggest hurdle you funded,
you're in shops, you had to go through so much pain to get to
that. Well, what for you?
Were those major milestones or hurdles that you have to get
over? Yeah.
And that's not to say that there's not another new set of
hurdles that you've got to. Get over.
Yeah. No there that there will be for
sure. I think something my, you know I
was guilty in the early stages of so I'd have I speak to my FD
quite a lot who's been more experienced and has now he's
he's in his 50s not if not 60s and as you know seen a lot more
than I have and and I'd say I just need to get through this
stage and then we'll be OK and he'd say we do need to get
through this stage but then there'll be another challenge
and he's absolutely right you know you can you think that you
know. You've got the only challenges
now, but there will be different and bigger challenges in the
future I think. Yeah, if you break it down, I
think launching the product at the very start will be the first
thing. So finding a manufacturer and
then creating a commercially available product, I guess
finding manufactured in the Where is the product
manufactured? Yeah, in the UK.
So, yeah, about an hour and a half outside London, obviously
there. So, yeah, all in the UK, yeah,
getting up on it made raising funds I'd say.
And then getting on to sort of launching initially into Daddy's
and farm shops and kind of smaller retailers.
Then getting into a few kind of prestigious places like
Selfridges that really kind of start to open doors for us.
And then going on to the start to work with the big growth
that's like Tesco, Waitrose, Ocado, those kind of guys.
I mean those are, yeah, those are some of the steps but
there's been you know millions on the journey, lots of you
know, building our product range.
So starting from basically ketchup and BBQ sauce at the
start through to a much fuller range of products now that span
kind of catch up mayonnaise, hot sauce, dressings.
So yeah, it's been you know, tons of learnings and tons of
like little miles stands along the way.
I think it's important to celebrate those because you
know, you're always going to have more challenges, whatever
stage you're at, and you've got to kind of celebrate the wins as
you go and it's all too easy to. You know, achieve something that
you have been working on for ages and, you know, maybe a
month or a year ago you'd have been over the moon to have
achieved that. And you can get it kind of drawn
into the next, you know, just the next challenge and often
forget that that's true in terms of the culture that you're
building. Obviously, I've watched one of
the adverts that you've got out there and it's very sort of, you
know, fun in that sense. As CEO, what type of culture are
you looking to build? Yeah, it's really important to
us to have a like a fun culture and trying to build a brand that
people want to, you know, people want to buy and but also the
people want to work for. So we just try and be quite
modern with how we do things. So I mean we've got you can look
at, look at our brand and you know we're the only guys that
have pink ketchup. We have a massive exclamation
mark in front of the bottle and you know, it's sleek and we try.
We're trying to make a beautiful brand, but at the same time
we're trying to do things a bit differently.
And we're pretty unashamed about that and we want and you know,
we This is just, there you go and catch it.
Yeah, exactly. And like the kind of the reason
for that is we were, you know, looking at ketchup, which is
ubiquitous product. Lots of people are pretty much
sleepwalking down the supermarket aisle to go and grab
their favorite brand of ketchup that they've bought for years
and years or to buy a supermarket and enable product.
And we have to stand out. So everybody has a pretty much a
white label and we decided to do.
To do a the pink label and the exclamation mark is is all
around kind of like stop and think think both about kind of
sugar but also about your condiments that quality about
you know extendability everything which is that big
kind of exclamation mark And then we use the different the
different point on every products and we've got the
tomato and the ketchup and then you know an egg for the
mayonnaise and then things like that chilly on the on the hot
sauce and so you know trying to keep it fun and playful but have
something that people want to you know want to have on the
table and then from a culture point of view in the business.
Yeah, we just, you know, we're just normal people and I think
like there's so much formality in in, in, in business that you
know some of it is required but some of it really isn't.
So we just have you know honest conversations with people.
We try and just you know treat people like people and and just
have a you know pretty try and be pretty as straightforward as
you can be trust people to you know to to get the work done and
and not be you know not be too over there.
Yeah, I I got you. One of the things that was
really interesting in terms of. Your your approach you obviously
you're you're a young company but you went for B certification
already how and I know there's a lot of green washing that
happens. What's your honest take in terms
of the sustainability elements and how how?
Because I noticed again on the website and I'll, I'll, I'll
bring it up about recycling and and and being.
I'm just curious about how that measures within your part of
your culture and the organization.
Yeah, definitely. So it's really important to us.
So we decided quite early to to go for certification to become a
B Corp because I think it's a B Pop essentially is a commitment
to to Better Business. So you're you're committing to,
you know we're absolutely a forprofit business.
We're not, you know we're not charity, but you're committing
to balance profits, profits and purpose.
So you're, you know, you're not forgoing one for the other and
essentially it's a commitment from our side to do everything.
To try and do Better Business and sustainability is 1 angle of
it, but it's also you know doing right by your, by your customers
and by your staff and that kind of anchors every decision we
make in the business. And then from a sustainability
point of view, you're absolutely right, there is a lot of
greenwashing out there. So we just try and and to be
clear, we're far from perfect. It's a journey that we're on and
we've made. I think we've done some things
really well. There's lots of like small
things that we're that that that layer up and I'm a big believer
in that, you know that's it's quite rare that there's like a
silver bullet that kind of. You know, fixes everything, but
quite often it's just this, it's like a series of good choices.
So we just try and we use glass, but for a lot of our products
and then we also use, we use squeezy like plastic squeezy
bottle, but we've ensured that it's, you know, fully
recyclable. The lids, the lids are also
recyclable. We're moving to labels.
They can all go in the same recycling streams.
We just try to do just try to make all the right choices from
like a packaging point of view. So like trying to figure out you
know what's the next thing cuz there the stuff that we have now
is really good for what is on the market, but also we're
looking at kind of big innovation is there, you know
things like sugar cane packaging and there's also interesting
things out there. So we're, you know, we're
absolutely keeping abreast of all of that stuff and trying to
make sure that yeah we can we can.
We just always think ahead with with sustainability and trying
to, yeah, trying to have the, you know, a robust like
sustainability sustainable supply chain.
What surprised you when you were going through the creation?
Cuz I'm noticing you guys did some research in terms of how
much sugar was in other products and the impact your source of
sugar is through dates only Or do you use other sources of
sweetness? Yeah, so dates primarily.
So if you take ketchup for example.
You like all the there's there's a bit of sugar in in tomato for
example. So you get you you'll get a
little bit of the sugar will come from like a tomato or from
an onion you know like natural sauces but they all come from
natural fruit sources. So yeah, we've used, we have
used the Garvey as well like in our sweet chili product but they
all we try and use natural natural sugar sauces.
So it's basically dates and tomatoes where the where the
sweetness comes from in our ketchup and then just use less
of it. That's the other thing.
So it's it's one thing to use natural sugars but also we just
try and use like. A sensible amount.
So I think you know you you mentioned sugar crime, look at
BBQ sauce and I'm not going to mention any particular brand
because it's pretty much across the board like there are you
know if you turn turn the product around like frequently
there are products that have 50% sugar, 35% sugar, 40% sugar and
it's just you don't need that much sugar.
And if you think about it, if you put like you know, serving a
decent a few dollars to catch them might be, you know, 3040
grams, 20 grams of sugar and it's just, you know, it's not.
Yeah. Then you have a few more dollops
and like you're not far of a can of Coke, but you know, if you
have a can of Coke, at least you kind of, you know, you're
constantly making a decision to have a sugary beverage, right.
Whereas it's kind of, it's sort of hidden in a source.
So that's the kids. That's the thing that gets me
into that. And you know, two boys I am
constantly, especially with ketchup because that's the
example you guys used. Or Doctor Willa, who's an actual
doctor, The users that you know, he was using ketchup on the
vegetables, where I think all parrots do.
And then all of a sudden you look at the label and it's not
only the E Forget the sugar, I can live with sugar.
It's all the E numbers that then are.
Following the the things and you're like, oh man, especially
in cereals. But that.
Again, I know you're not in cereal business, but there's got
to be a better way. There's got to be another way,
yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah. It's.
And that's what we're trying to do like it's it's you know, we
keep it really simple. So we use you know, we use dates
rather than like lots of like white refined sugar and then we
just just less of it. And in doing that we think you
know, there's still some sweetness in the product.
Absolutely. That's a key part of of of the
flavor. And I think you could, you know,
you could absolutely make like a 0 calorie, 0 sugar kind of
product, but you know, pretty wouldn't get pretty, wouldn't
get very far. There are some on the market,
but people are people are used to.
You know when you have a catch up, you want to have some
sweetness. You want to have some.
So with that sort of vinegary, that vinegary punch you want to
sell things like that. So we absolutely have those
things. We're just trying to have it in
sensible quantities and then just use the best quality
ingredients. So I think if you look at, you
know, if you look at our product, you turn the
background, everything that's in there are things that you'd have
in your kitchen. So it's you know, to like if you
look at our ketchup ingredients, it's like tomatoes, onions,
dates, spices, that kind of thing.
And then, yeah, and it's just, it's just trying to use like,
you know, good quality, simple ingredients and not.
Had out our products with, you know, lots of gums and
thickeners and like you said, any numbers, preservatives, all
that stuff. You just you just don't need it.
Like you know, with a with a product that just has tomatoes,
dates and some vinegar and a little bit of salt, you get
plenty of shelf life. There isn't any need to to fill
them with, you know, preservatives that you can't,
you can't recognize. Have you cracked the nuts of
making people care? Because I think that's one thing
lots of brand companies play on is the fact that the inertia of
of change and making that change.
I'm just curious from your research or from the work that
you've done making that a topic that's important, which it is
for people's health and the consumer, Is there a secret or
is there a way of of bringing that to life?
Is a great question, I think. Have we cracked them?
Not I think. We are getting people to care.
I think we need to get lots more people to care.
So we're on that journey. I think lots of people really
resonate with our brand and and stay you know, they want a
healthier option, but equally they want great tasting
condiments. And I think what we're trying to
do is not compromise. So I think if you do compromise,
yeah again and and we were guilty of this at the start.
We were trying to make, you know the a product that was so low in
sugar that it didn't deliver on flavor and it tasted, you know,
too different and and. You know didn't didn't quite
have the balance that you expect in a in a catch up.
Now we've got to a stage where we have products that really do
deliver in their own right. Like we're not saying they're
good for healthy catch up. Like these are like our products
are delicious and they, you know, they've won great taste
awards and I'm really passionate about making products that just
taste great and always happen to be healthier.
I'm curious on where you go from here, Liam, in terms you've had
so much success, but there's so much more to do in terms of
growth of the company. What's what's top of mind for
you? Is that the the, the key driver
for the next sort of 18 to 12 months for you?
I think yeah we're we're a few years in but we're we're very
much on this on this path to to try and disrupt that the the
economist industry. So we we're at stage, we're in
lots of the kind of major retailers in the UK in
particular and we also export to a few markets around the world
and now the next challenge for us is just taking on.
You know scanning up to to the next level and taking on some of
these these big brands that have been around for years and years
and just trying to essentially offer you know a healthier but
but great tasting product to more people.
So it's kind of scaling up that that you know distribution but
also just a when so trying to get our product out to as many
people as as as we possibly can and we know that you know when
people try our products they love them.
So the big challenge is, is getting them into you know into
many people's hands and their mouths as possible.
Yeah, I'm I'm as I keep going back to as a father this makes
so much sense for me. It just takes away the the the
guilt and pain of not giving them what they want, but giving
them what they want with something that's that's better
for them To really great. To find a passionate group of
people that genuinely want to change the way that we eat for
better and who also care about the world and environment that
they live in and and we live in as well.
I think these are really important sort of pillars if you
like, of Business Today Liam, With all of that I want to thank
you for giving up your time and where can people find out more
about your business? Are you on all the social
channels? Yeah, on all the social
channels. So our website, Dr. Wills WILL
f.com, Instagram at Doctor, DOCTOR, under score, Wills,
Wilf, and then yeah, that's kind of where you can.
Find us right I need to see at the moment.
Yes. Yeah, we do.
So you can buy our products on our website, Okay.
Cool. Yeah, we're on Amazon as well.
And then in the UK, lots of retailers and also in sort of
select parts of Europe, Middle East, Asia as well.
That's fantastic. Liam.
Thank you so much. Thanks very much, Alex.
Thanks.