And just that data and being more explicit around what you
want that data for and how it's going to power an experience is
just so much more valuable because I'm much more likely,
having chosen to give my data to that brand, much more likely to
return and therefore make a purchase through better
interactions with me as a consumer.
Hello and welcome to the Retail Podcast.
Now, as you know, we'd like to solve problems on the show.
So we thought what better way that when retailers are looking
at customer engagement platforms, we haven't really
covered that area specifically. We've covered some of the
partners and suppliers around that, but who better than Brace
to to talk to when, when, when retailers are looking to, to fix
that? And I'm joined by James Herridge
Link, who is the director for partnerships at Braise.
Have I got that right? Yeah.
And so global strategic partnerships and at Braise prior
to that, I was actually the Global Head of Retail and
Consumer Goods at Braise based here in London.
I got you, but you're you're AUS company, right?
Because I can see the head office is based in New York.
That's right, yes, so frequently travelling overseas and, but but
20 years in in technology and I think the, the, the luxury or
joy of travel is definitely starting to wear off.
OK, I got you. So listen, if I if I knew
nothing about brakes, which is pretty much the case, how would
you in layman's terms sort of describe brace?
Sure. So a great place to start.
So Braise is a customer engagement platform that helps
brands to personalise and scale the customer experiences across
all channels. So it's one platform and endless
touch points and channels that we support for customers
including Deliveroo, ASOS, Estee Lauder, elf Cosmetics, many of
the the best and and leading brands in the world.
So I I noticed that's cross category, so you're not limited
to fashion or beauty. No, no, we, we absolutely work
with from like small, from very small businesses and through to
some of the largest companies in in the world.
I got you and and so if I was like, you know, SS their Lauder,
what what would be the outcome that you would you would you
would create for me? What would you?
Do sure it's a great question. So if, if we go back to, you
know, pre kind of 1947, so SS Lauder was in New York, she was
in hair salons and beauty salons and she was starting to actually
implement what was her, her products to consumers as they
were having their hair blow dry. And, and that was really kind of
the starting of what was high touch consumer experiences.
And so for Estee Lauder, they want to continue to, to, to
fulfil what was their kind of founding mission.
And, and really that's being able to understand consumers in
the moment through the various different touch points that they
have, whether it's a a website, whether it's through their and
skin or online diagnostics tool through to also in store and
experiences. By understanding those consumers
based on their known and unknown behaviours or anonymous or known
behaviours, be able to actually orchestrate journeys and
delivering messaging through to those consumers across the
various different channels that that brave supports.
And in doing so means that they can launch campaigns quicker,
they deliver more value when it comes to using own channels.
So very much a prioritisation of own before paid.
And in doing so, you know you've seen significant reductions in
the OR increases in the return on ad spend, just as as one
example. So there was a / 200% increase
in return on ad spend just by using braids.
Got you. So, so if I, if I understand
right, because one, one of the complaints I always hear senior
execs at conferences talk about is that the, the fact that
people take the decisions take longer and then more digital
touch points that they, they touch before they come to
complete or purchase. And if I understand what you're
saying correctly is that you sort of help secure that if you
know, if there's an advert or a digital channel that they've
gone and they've seen the brand and they've they've touched one
of those digital touch points, if they're known to us,
fantastic, we've got more data. But if they haven't that you can
also somehow bring that data. In well, so probably a good
example is that you would see an an ad from a a brand and the
most typical thing that you do is that could be.
Anywhere right that on any? Social.
Yeah, anywhere. Instagram, exactly.
Exactly. And typically in those
experiences, those consumers are unknown to the brand because
they're not logged in. So they see an add on Instagram,
they go to the website and they're anonymous.
But for the brand, they need to very, very quickly understand
who that consumer is and drive them somewhere, right?
So they want to typically drive them to either do a skin
diagnostic, yeah tool or to say make a purchase.
And So what Braise is doing is in the moment understanding that
consumer based on their behaviours and then triggering
messaging to drive some form of action.
And so that might be to a certain place on the website or
it might be to make a purchase or actually even into to store
to, you know, at that point, say download a coupon or something
like that. But I think in so many examples,
you've got consumers that and actually, if you ask them what
they're looking for, they can't necessarily tell you.
And I think that that kind of is like modern day life, right?
If you ask someone what they're they're wanting or looking for,
they can't tell you. And, and what Braise is doing is
actually just watching them and understanding their behaviours
and then using messaging to drive some form of interaction,
which ultimately drives then an outcome.
And you look at many of the other brands that we serve, from
elf Cosmetics to Zealando to Doctor Barbara Stern, that was a
hard one to to to get out there. And all of all of these are able
to actually just personalised experiences at scale.
And in doing so, consumers just become a lot more loyal.
I got you. So I mean, from my own personal
experience of working in tech, you probably have a view of what
people get wrong, right? What do they not do or what do
they take for granted? What what?
Like, what are the top three things that people are getting
wrong in this industry right now?
Sure. So I think one of the one of the
big challenges that a lot of brands have is that they operate
within silos, whether that's a channel based silo.
So just understanding how consumers interact through
e-mail or with data silos. So, you know, I think a lot of
retailers have just legacy systems and they're not
connected. And that's a real challenge for
retailers because they want to be able to make data available
to therefore action. But where data lives in silos,
they can't action it in the moment.
And so there's always this latency.
But then when it comes to channel silos, you're looking at
how James Harris laying interacts for e-mail.
But I didn't necessarily interact with brands through
e-mail. I'm much more responsive, say,
on the website or through WhatsApp.
And I think the the, the core challenge that fundamentally a
lot of the brands have is that that data is siloed and the
channels are also siloed. And therefore to be able to have
cohesive, ongoing conversations with consumers through
messaging, it's just really difficult.
But yeah, I guess the reason it's difficult is because those
signals that consumers are giving pretty much I don't know
what percentage is are lost, right?
Because you, you don't have some form of signal detector picking
up all the signals that you're missing, right?
So obviously I can go on my how many people are responding to
e-mail and that's going to be abysmal number, right?
Because how many people respond to that as opposed to as you
said, these new channels. So what are the channels that
you're seeing influence purchasing behaviour?
Sure. So I think so in what would be
seen and say in product channels, so like web messaging
on the website and in app messaging and then channels or
out of product channels like e-mail, WhatsApp, SMS.
Also RCS when it, when it comes to say braised on a, on an
annual basis runs what we call our consumer engagement review
and that we go out to many different execs across our, our
customer base. And a, a, a key stat for you.
So 47% of retailers say that they're extremely or very
concerned that their messaging isn't resonating with customers.
And I think when, you know, when you even kind of break that down
further. So 95% of marketers through the
consumer engagement review admit that they can't or sorry, they
find it difficult to craft emotionally resonant messaging
and this lack of connection can lead to lower engagement rate.
So I think the it's very clear that there's an issue.
And I think one of the challenges is, is that a lot of
brands have gone to or a lot of retailers gone to your kind of
one-size-fits-all type technology vendor where what
we're seeing is this shift to what is kind of composability
and composable solutions. So being able to actually find
the best in breed of a data warehouse or ABI tool or a
customer engagement platform. But core to those technologies
actually being able to work is that they can work together.
And I think, you know, Braze has very recently launched or
announced our partnership and integration to Shopify.
And I think for, you know, if you've got 70 million people in
the UKI think we too frequently just look at the biggest
businesses in the UK and the world that are then the example.
But but actually 85% of consumers live outside of
Greater London. So you've got I'm a parish
councillor and on the Watlington Business Association as a
representative. And you just see that the
challenges that a lot of these businesses have in trying to
actually engage with consumers and actually resonate with them
to increase the amount of spending and the, the, the
frequency by which they're making purchases.
And I think fundamentally they need technologies that can work
together. And so composability I think is
becoming more and more of a, a theme that that will play out
over the, the the coming years. How do you handle privacy across
Europe or across the world? Because you have so many
different privacy laws that you have to adhere by in different
parts of the UK, or I mean, actually I think GDPR is a
European, you know, almost if you're GDPR compliant.
Do you have any thoughts on privacy?
So like privacy and, and, and customer data is, you know, cool
to, to what we do it, it underlies everything but, or
underpins everything that we do when you take it very seriously,
because you can't build trust for the consumer without
respecting their, their data and their privacy, but also having,
you know, and again, taking security very, very seriously.
I think an important point to consider is so many marketers
hesitate to use personal data because of concerns around
consumer consent. So 45% of the UK marketers cite
this as a top worry. And with an ever evolving
landscape, it becomes even more important because you've got all
of these various different technologies for Braise,
security, privacy and compliance.
Is, is, is, you know, the, the, the most critical part to, to
what we do because our customers and the reason that they love
Braise is because we make sure that the, the relationship that
they have with their consumers is just, you know, dealt with in
a way that's secure, trustworthy and compliant in, in every way.
I got you. I understand.
So do you think that there's a hindrance?
Is there like do retailers, is that like does that perception
block them from doing things in terms of they're eternally
worried about not being compliant, whereas actually
maybe the work that they are? I mean, what's what's the
blockage of, of using a system like brace?
I guess that's what I'm trying to understand.
Sure. So I, I don't think compliance
is one of the factors that kind of underpin or so being
compliant in the way by which you communicate with consumers
is absolutely critical. We know that.
But I think that that is kind of course of what all of these
technologies allow brands to be able to adhere to in terms of
kind of compliance and regulation.
That said, I think one of the biggest fears that we we
continue to see is that there's a risk of kind of taking that
next step, as it were. So the status quo is, is, is the
status quo. So I think a lot of brands are
still chat struggle to, to to challenge what is that status
quo. I've got a, a stat here in terms
of like the amount of of e-mail that's being used.
So bear with me one second. Sure, no problem.
So when it comes to e-mail like as a channel, so 43% of
consumers or sorry, respondents to the customer engagement
reviews say that e-mail is the preferred channel.
Messaging apps like WhatsApp lying account talk is 39% SMS
38% and then slowly followed by by other channels.
And I think there's this still over reliance on one single
channel and consumers are all different, right.
And I the one like I said earlier, e-mail is, is one way
of getting hold of me, but not necessarily the the best way.
And I think it's also dependent by market as well.
So in a lot of mobile first markets, so like India is a good
example or South America, the penetration of mobile is just so
high. And you know, like e-mail to cut
through is, is quite difficult because it's not a channel that
that everyone uses. And so for a lot of brands that
come to Braise is that they want one platform to walk a straight
journeys and have an like a variety of different ways to
communicate with consumers and to do so at scale.
And I think where AI is going to, you know, change the way by
which brands communicate is that it's not going to be a
one-size-fits-all. It's going to be really truly
understanding who that consumer is, whether you know them or you
don't, and then interacting with them based on their behaviours
and other data that you have about them, but also being even
more explicit about the data that you collect from them and
asking them. So you know, James, do you like
this product versus this product or this experience versus this
experience and using all of that data and it being available is
going to what I think is, is, is the next wave that a lot of
brands are are starting to embark on, but very few are
actually doing it well, I would say.
I got you. So I think that brings us nicely
to like the the final question in terms of you, you mentioned
AI or when you look to the future of over what this
industry, your industry looks like over the next two to three
years, what does that look like? What?
What is in, in, in, You know, what is in the future for us.
So I think that there's, there's a number of factors outside of
just the, the industry. I think, you know, planning as,
as one example here in the UK, there's planning laws that are
changing. And I think the cost to live in
a city centre, I live in, like I said, in in Watlington, which is
junction six of the M40 for those who don't know, second
smallest town in the UK and you know, you've got the LTN or the
20 mile an hour speed limits. It takes an hour to get into to
Oxford City centre. And I think planning laws are
changing in a way that you're going to see new shopping
centres and new malls built around housing because we've got
a housing crisis. And I think that fundamentally
is 1 opportunity that's going to change the way in that you've
got property that allows for better connectivity and better
experiences. And I think AI is going to
change the way there in that it will move to a more Omni channel
way. So brands will see this more as
even more of an opportunity that you need to connect online and
install, equipping your, your teams, whether they're in store
or online, but specifically in store with technologies that
provide them with more knowledge, which is effectively
AI or Gen AI is being able to equip them with, with, with more
skills and, and, and knowledge. And, and in doing so, I think
will change the way that consumers interact with the
stores. So being able to actually be
identified as you walk in that store through a mobile app and
then retail media, being able to actually deliver much more of an
immersive experience to those consumers in store, using that
behavioural real time data to then trigger more experiences,
whether it's through your app or actually through kiosks and so
forth. And I think where the power of
AI is going to come in is it's going to allow you to do that at
scale. So your experience, Alex, will
be different to my experience, James and, and so on.
And what's your perspective on that?
Well. That's a good question.
I think there's there's a bit of a bun fight going on in terms of
what the how AI wants to control the future channel.
So you've got AI companies or like perplexity who basically
circumvent the website and take the customer to where the
transaction happens to like the buy page because they feel that,
you know, if you're looking for a floral summer dress, you don't
necessarily need to go through the 25 different touch points on
the website. Let's just take you to the buy
page. We'll show you what that that
looks like. And so I think, you know,
whether or not retailers accept that and say, you know, the
amount of money they're they're spending on their websites,
whether they'll obviously, they don't want to lose any channel.
I just see that as them wanting to take more control to own that
data rather than the data sitting in perplexity, TikTok,
Instagram or wherever else. And I think that's what
retailers are really probably struggling with building
coherent plans. Either they give up and say
we're not going to have that data, it's all going to sit in
meta and you know, that's the way it goes.
Or they'll put some form of fight, fight back and really,
really sort of double down on their own digital assets on
owning the customer or, or providing better value for the
customer and the reason to engage at that level.
So. Yeah, it's it's definitely an
interesting one because I think the last time that brand
actually asked me data about me instead of just assuming or
understanding my behaviours. So Estee Lauder do this really
well. They use a an in browser message
on their website. So it might be cosmetics to
actually surface a message that is interactive that you can
potentially part ways with 0 positive data.
So it might understand your skin type or what you're looking for.
And just that data and being more explicit around what you
want that data for and how it's going to power and experience is
just so much more valuable because I'm much more likely
having. I've chosen to give my data to
that brand much more likely to return and therefore make a
purchase through better interactions with me as a
consumer, and I think brands that get that right will build
better longer term relationships with their customers.
Yeah, I think there's, there's so much that brands get wrong in
terms of just look at, if you follow some of the chat rooms
where you know what, why do the, why do people use ChatGPT?
And it goes to beauty? It's they want to know what
other colours are adjacent to the, that match their skin tone,
right? And so they'll ChatGPT has a,
has a, a capability of looking at you, taking, you know, using
a vision AI, saying, OK, you're this colour.
Consider wearing this, this than this colour.
And the beauty industry is nervously asking you to, you
know, scan your face to see whether or not you, you, you're,
you've done sconce sun damage. So I think there's that source
of the bold will win because they understand or they'll look
at these sort of what people are searching with AI and then
think, well, we could do that. Why are we not offering a
service of you bought this brown because you're that shade of
brown and all these other colours that go with you or, you
know, I don't know. But it's that's where I think
brands are need to invest more to not be left behind.
And again, I heard someone say, well, is that like in the old
days, like 10 years ago? Alexa voice, everyone was
worried that that would be the channel.
You'll just say, Hey, Alexa, buy this for me.
And so retailers were like, well, we need to own that
because we don't want, you know, if, if, if, if someone says buy
some batteries, you don't want Amazon deciding what batteries
you're going to sell. You want to own that.
That really didn't come into fruition as a channel.
Maybe it still might because, you know, these things take take
forever in terms of consumer behaviour changing.
But yeah, that's it. Any closing thoughts?
So. Thank you for for taking the,
the, the time for me today. And I think for, for, for those
retailers and brands that want to have one platform that
connects to their best of breed technology and be able to
orchestrate journeys and deliver messaging to consumers in the
moment using first and zero party data and across a variety
of channels. So in products, a web app and
then out of product through e-mail, SMS and WhatsApp,
Braises is becoming even more well known and just the
customers that we work with and the results do speak for
themselves. So I'd encourage those that are
interested in finding out more to to to make contact.
That's fantastic. Are you at any conferences that
are coming? Up we are so we'll be at Cannes
Lion festival OK, and what's amazing about Cannes is that you
get to make meet so many of the world's most amazing people and
I think you do so obviously in 30° sunshine.
And then we've got Viva tech and tomorrow or the twenty 20th of
May we've got praise city by city and then other things like
shop talk Europe that we'll also be at.
So looking forward to having many great conversations with,
with, you know, amazing people across the world.
That's fantastic, James. Thank you so much for giving up
your time and I look forward to seeing you at one of these
conferences. Great.
Thank you, Alex.