Well, I'm a serial killer. I've killed 8 women, 6IN this
state and two in New York. I'm not a big serial killer, by
the way. 88 people, that's nothing.
I mean, there's, there's a lot of other guys you can go see.
I saw this woman walking along the road with a stroller.
I pulled off the side of the road.
She came into the driveway, walked up the driveway.
I was behind the house. She saw me and I grabbed her.
I told her that if she didn't do what I I wanted that I would
smash the baby's head against the wall of the house.
Where I think that's important is I've always said that I never
understood why the women never really resisted me.
I never I'm not a big strong guy.
Nobody ever seemed to fight and I've always had attributed to
that. I must say something like that.
Similar to to the other victims. I raped her strangler.
I left her for dead. The only reason she's not dead
is has nothing nothing to do with me.
So when I attacked her, I don't believe I was in control.
I don't think I could have stopped.
Reason I say that is because there's a very clear point to me
after she was dead, when I was feeling well, I didn't really
feel anything. I mean, I knew what was going on
and and I saw what was going on, but it was more like watching an
old film that we used to see as kids in the high school, you
know, I mean, in elementary school, they've been played so
many times. They're all spliced and and it'd
be going along and then jump. You would think that if you
killed somebody that you would have that face imprinted in your
mind and that you wouldn't be able to get it out of your mind.
I don't have that. I never had that.
The only only face that I can see is what was in the
newspapers a few days later when they were when they were
missing. You know, like the high school
picture. Anybody know where this girl is
type thing. That's when I think of them.
That's the picture I see. I don't see them as they were
when I killed them. I can't see them as I was
killing them. When I say I don't have any
remorse, that doesn't mean that I don't have any regrets, that I
don't wish that didn't happen there.
There was something I could do to bring them back or anything.
It's just that I don't have any feelings towards them.
I don't feel, I feel like I should be tormented by by by
what they look like when I was killing them or by tormented by
what was happening immediately before I killed them and stuff.
And none of that's there. None of that's there at all.
If I had to choose between whether I'm going to be executed
on Thursday or know that I'm going to spend the rest of my
days in prison and die an old man, old and broken, I would
rather die in prison. I just swung on him with the
tire iron and kept swinging until he was down.
It's like banging your head on a brick wall.
It really is. The thing is, nobody wants to
listen. I never talked to the police.
I never gave a statement. I regret that now.
I wish. I wish I would have been more
like so many of these guys who do get arrested and they just
don't shut up, You know, I wish I had told them everything up
front. Maybe one of the benefits of me
talking to you today is that you'll see that maybe not
everything is true, that you've heard about me.
Well, am I, am I pure evil? Am I the face of terror sitting
here in front of you? Or am I able to talk to you man
to man? But sitting down here now and
let me make clear, I'm not sitting here trying to influence
you and I'm not putting on a game face.
I'm not counting anybody. I'm just being me.
So I I got to ask you how you how are you feeling this
morning? A little numb.
I mean, I don't know how it is how you would expect someone to
feel. I mean, if they told you
tomorrow you're dying, how would you feel?
It's not something we all die, but it's knowing your exact date
and time that's that's hard to deal with.
But I'm at peace with myself. I mean, as far as it's my
release, my punishment's over. I've been here 28 years now.
I'm tired so. You've been here 28 years.
I've. Been locked up 28 years since
December the 9th 1987 so I'm a little tired and in confinement.
And explain what that's like. Imagine spending 28 years in
this room. There's no way to describe it.
Exceptionally, it's exceptionally difficult.
I've had a lot of support. A lot of people love me and care
about me. A lot of lot of support outside.
That's made it a little easier, but still, it's very difficult
to spend 20 years in a room like this.
A lot of thinking you. Have to be able to look in the
mirror like yourself. Do you like yourself?
Yeah, I'm comfortable with myself.
There's a lot of things in my younger, in my past, you know, I
wish I could change, but I'm at peace with myself.
The state's about to kill me and they think they're getting
justice and I'm like, well, I'm not getting justice, they're
just going to kill somebody else.
I was like, and I'd like, They killed me 28 years ago when they
locked me up. Now they're just releasing me.
So you're saying you didn't murder these women?
No. You didn't murder Natalie
Hawley, Stephanie Collins, no Terri Lynn Matthews.
No, I didn't know. I've never seen them, never met
them. And I I I met them through
photographs, through crime scene photos, through newspaper
articles. I've gotten to know them fairly
well through newspaper articles and crime scene photos, police
reports. So 10 juries convicted you
though. Yes, 10 Juries heard the same
evidence repeatedly, over and over and over.
Nothing changed. Evidence linking you to the
murders. Yes, people's testimony in the
physical evidence. What physical evidence actually
linked me? There's hair and fibers, right?
Hair and fibers that Mike Malone prepared, not from me.
So I've been hearing you talk for the last 20 minutes and
you're you're going over the case, you're going over the
evidence and, and talking about it being flawed and tainted and
planted. So is Florida basically killing
an innocent man? Yes, for for the murder of
Stephanie Collins, Natalie Holly and Terry Lee and Matthews and
they're about to execute me for Terry Lee and Matthews murder.
They execute someone who did absolutely did not commit that
murder. So you're innocent?
There was another man confessed to it.
So you're innocent? Absolutely innocent of the
murder. I had nothing to do with it.
Are you going to have anything final to say right before the
injection? No, that's my release.
They're not going to get no justice out of that.
They won't. If, if anything, they'll leave
angry, They'll say, well, that was too easy, there was nothing
there. Is it going to change anything
for them when they wake up the day after?
Is anything going to be different now?
I'm not going to be there. Where's their focus or their
anger now? They're still going to be
without their child. They're still going to be numb,
you know, maybe it won't happen today.
Maybe it'll happen a week or six weeks, or maybe something will
happen a year down the road or whatever.
Then they'll say, wow, maybe something will change.
They'll say, well, maybe I want to look at the evidence.
Might be too late for me, but they owe it to their child.
I would if it was my child. They owe their child that much.
Are you going to be looking at them right before you're
executed? Well, if they're in the window,
I probably will. Eye to eye, you're going to look
at all of them. Well, I don't know.
It depends if I can see them or not.
But you plan to. Oh, if I can see them, yes.
And would you say anything? I don't know if I'll say
anything because I don't know if it would do any good, you know,
What would you say to them? I encourage you to examine the
evidence. Hire an independent, someone
that you trust, someone you feel comfortable with, and go through
it. Is that what you're going to
say? That's what I would say.
That's all I can say. I didn't do it.
You're not going to believe me. Fine, then there's no point in
saying that. But don't take my word for it.
Don't take the police. Do an independent analysis.
Let them do it. Did.
They tell you what time the execution takes place.
Well, I think it's scheduled for 6:00 PM.
But I was like, after 28 years of this, it's been in this box
for 28 years. It's a release my punishments
over. They can't hurt me no more so.
So what do you do in your cell all those years sitting in
there? Read.
Read what? Books about what I read,
everything I read all of them. The, you know, the, the works of
art, the philosophers, Nietzsche, I've read them all.
History. I mean, you're limited to what
you can do. The reading's pretty much the
only thing writing, reading, writing.
I have ATVI watched TV, staying up on the world events and
politics and stuff. What do you watch?
Anything in politics that's interesting to you?
Mostly watched the PBS shows, the offbeat news programs 'cause
they're more in depth, more coverage, a lot of the
masterpiece mysteries and stuff like that.
I didn't watch a lot of the mainstream TV.
Do artwork, Draw what? Do you draw?
I did different types of drawings for Rosalie, for the
kids I didn't draw for, nobody else, even for her.
But hopefully someday the truth will come out.
Unless, I mean, it might be too late for me.
It's too late for me 28 years ago.
I came to prison 28 years ago. So had I not been in prison for
the Ohio case, maybe not just what happened, maybe my
credibility would have been different.
I don't know. In hindsight, you can set back
and say, well, there's a lot of what ifs or I should have, but
you can't change that. We get one go around and I have
to accept the hand that was dealt me.
Some of us don't get the opportunity.
Dying down, nurse. Not as bad as dying the car
wreck or upside down the ditch or, you know, house fire or or
like the victims died or I mean, there's many worse ways to go.
At least I had the opportunity to say goodbye to my people.
I had a chance to prepare myself.
I haven't, you know, so. Do you know how many people you
murdered? Yeah, but I'd rather I'd rather
not mention it. By my count, it's 22 people.
Is that the same number that you have?
That's approximately it. I wished I could go back and
change things, but there's no way I can do it.
So I'll try to do it, you know, make the best of it if I had.
Some way to make amends to them? I would try to do that.
You know it, being locked up in here on death row.
With with an execution date a week away, I can't really do a
whole lot for them. Do you think about those two
boys in Cincinnati? No, I don't really think about
them. I mean, I can't go back and
think about the cases. You know, individually I have
too much other problems, too much other things I have to
focus on and worry about. You know, those are two young
boys, just 13 or 14 years old. Yeah, it was, you know, I regret
the fact that I shot them. Now why did you shoot them?
Well, I was just waiting out, sitting on that railroad track,
waiting for the first either interracial couple or black to
walk by and. What was your mission?
Well to try to get a race war started a mixed race couples and
blacks. I figured if once I started
doing it and showed them how other white supremacists would
do the same thing, follow suit. So you hope people would copy?
I would hope, Yeah, I hope. That other white nationalists
would do the same thing. Do you think you're a hero to
those hate groups? Well, that's what they tell me,
you know, I just felt like I was at war, you know, and it was the
survival of the white race was at stake, stuff like that, you
know? Do you feel that way now?
No, not at all. No, I can see now it's wrong.
It's it's wrong. Violence is wrong at any time,
you know, do. You feel that way because you
got caught. No, not at all.
No, as a matter of fact, it took.
Me. Many, many.
Years to change. I actually thought as misguided
as I was, I was doing the will of God.
You know, I. Thought I was.
Actually doing right. This is what God wanted me to
do. But the police were pursuing.
First time I killed somebody, it was such a rush.
How many people have you killed, Lord?
I don't know. I don't.
Know 10? Yeah, 20.
Probably 30. It's up there 50, but see.
I'm not. Billy the Kid making notches on
on my my poster. So I know it's been a lot.
I am hatred. When you look at me, you look at
hate. When I look at you, I look at
hate. When you look at me, you know
what hate is because I don't know what love is. 2 words I
don't like to use is love and sorry because I'm about hate.
I don't have no feelings no more, no emotion?
No. And I like to watch the eyes
fade, the pupil fade. What do you like about that?
It it's just like setting their soul free.
You also killed children. Some get killed, yes.
Now why would that happen? I didn't want them to live
through the pain I lived through.
What did you do to her, Sir? Her neck was cut.
How did you do that? With a knife.
So what if I called you something that you didn't like
and you'd think about killing me?
Well, if we was in a fight, you know, get your head down in the
concrete, then, you know, so be it.
But what happens when my head goes down to the concrete?
Well, what do you think happened?
It cracked like a coconut. Why do you want to be executed?
I have to be because I will kill again.
No, I would do it again. I've been molesting kids
non-stop since I was 13 years old.
Over half my life anything happened I can guarantee I'd do
it again and sooner or later I would kill another child.
I've done it before and at the time I liked it.
Did your execution do any good? I think it would.
I think a few child molesters anyway are going to think twice
before they do anything again. How do you live with yourself
daily? At times it's not easy, I said.
There's times I think about what I've done.
I think about some of the things the boys said before they died
and and that's real hard to think about.
At other times, they just try to put everything out of my mind.
Do you look forward to dying? In a way, yeah, I could be a
relief. I don't have to think about all
these things anymore. And I know that's the only way I
can guarantee I'm not going to hurt anybody else.
Total, you know, isolation from everybody that I had been with
for almost 6 years. The first week I was here was
the worst week. The last 10 years was just like
that. Years of a drug nightmare days.
Of not knowing where. You are or what you've done.
Living in prison every day is a struggle even at its best, and I
know that without him and his strength that has sustained me,
I couldn't have made it even this far.
I'm sorry for the hurt that I've caused so many people today, if
it were possible. I wish that I could take every
bit of hurt on myself. You want to control your
destiny. That's that's right.
That's right. That's a good way to, I mean,
that's what this is all about. That's a good way to say it.
You got two types of people. You got people that lead and
people that follow. And I just decided I wasn't
going to be a follower. How many people have you killed?
I mean, what is it that you want to come clean about?
I have several homicides that I personally have dealings with
and there's been other people that was involved, but I'll
never reveal their names ever because has nothing to do.
This is me. This is my and my life.
I'm writing this story. When this all first started, I
was in the Ohio penitentiary. I'd come to a decision in the
Ohio prison that I was serving 26 to life there.
And I just, I just, I can't conceive that amount of time.
The information that I have and the things that I know and the
things that I've been a part of could get me to where I wanted
to be probably a lot quicker because I'd rather be, to be
honest with you. I'd rather be deceased, dead,
than to be spend my life in prison and watch my family drop
off 1 by 1. And when I die in the end of an
old man from being in prison, no one left to mourn me when I'm
dead. Let me ask you, John, how does
it does it make it easier to kill someone because you, you
vision everything you look at everything other than your
family is just one and the same, basically an object.
Does that make it easier? I would have to say it would for
I can't conceive or understand why people, families want to,
they seek for closure after things like this.
I can't, I don't understand that.
I don't understand how you got people that like in militaries
that kill people, soldiers and then they have to go through
therapy and, and 'cause they're, I mean, I, I can't understand
what it is that people, I can't figure it out why, why they feel
bad, why they feel that way. So what, what is it that you
want to happen next? I know that you, you know, you
basically want to control your destiny and you want people to
listen. And what, where, where do you go
next? I mean, what, what happens?
But I'm still see the end for me, it's it'll be soon, it'll be
within, it'll be within my family's lifetime.
And which is OK with me because what you want is to die.
That's correct. That's the only thing worthy of
a warrior, I guess you could say.
Tell me in a sentence who you are.
Nobody. I'm nobody.
Death. It happens to everybody.
I'm not. I don't fear being dying.
The only thing I that I even worry about is the emotions that
my family might feel. When you die, where do you think
you'll go? Do you think death will be
better? I personally feel that that
personally that if there is a God if if there is a devil.
But you're not much. In answering my direct question,
a lot was made that you're a devil worshipper.
Do you worship the devil? Have you ever studied Satanism?
I personally don't care either way because I refuse to worship
anything that I can't. That's not, you know, tangible
or made yourself known to me or I feel like it's a conspiracy.
You know what I'm saying? And I so I'll never bow down to
anything or anybody. It's not in my blood.
And if there is a God or a devil, if I go, if I could get
sent the whatever use, but hell, if I get sent there, I'll spend
my whole life trying to eternity trying to take over hell.
Because I'll bow down to no person, no entity, no being, no
God of this world, no God of any other world or any other
universe. Kill 13 people.
It would be improper for me to comment on my LA convictions and
on my pending case here in San Francisco.
Why? Because of my appeals.
Are you appealing these because you say you're innocent?
You didn't kill 13 people. That is correct.
You didn't kill 13 people. Again, it would be improper for
me to comment in any regard to that question.
You have now entered a very rare group of people in this country.
You're in the the ranks of Charlie Manson, Ted Bundy.
You claim you didn't commit these murders, but you're right
in there. Now, as far as everybody else is
just serial killers do on a small scale what governments do
on a large one. They are a product of the times.
And these are bloodthirsty times.
Even psychopaths have emotions if you dig deep enough.
But then again, maybe they don't.
Do you have emotions, Richard? No comment.
Tell me what kind of emotions you got going through you right
now. I'll tell you what.
I gave up on love and happiness a long time ago.
Why I I don't care to explain that.
Let the let the quote stand for itself, people.
People in this day and age are brainwashed and programmed like
a computer at being nothing more than puppets.
This nation, this country is founded in violence.
Violent delights tend to have violent ends.
It's madness is something rare in individuals, but in groups,
people in ages, it is a rule. Killing is killing, whether done
for duty, profit or fun. Men murdered themselves into
this democracy. You, you got to read in your
script, Richard, but you're not much in answering my direct
question. A lot was made that you're a
devil worshipper. Do you worship the devil?
Have you ever studied Satanism? There are different sects of
Satanism. Have you just yes or no?
Have you studied Satanism? Yes, I have.
Are you, are you a worshipper of the devil?
No comment. Come on, Richard, I can tell you
a little bit about Satanism. Well, I'm, I'm interested in
hearing what you got to say. Then it is undefiled wisdom
instead of hypocritical self deceit.
It is power, power without charity, but.
Satan admits to being evil. Do you admit to being evil,
Richard? We are all evil.
In some form or another, are we not?
I'm asking you the questions, my friend.
Yes, I am evil. Not 100%, but I am evil.
Evil has always existed. The perfect world most people
seek shall never come to pass. And it's going to get worse.
Your father passed away OK on the 10th.
My dad died 13 days ago. 13 days.
Ago on June 10th. But you will.
Die or you are scheduled for execution for only 8 days?
Yes, Sir. How are you doing?
You know, you know, I'm a Christian, so you know, I
believe that, you know, paradise awaits one way or the other.
So I tell people all the time I'm either going home or home.
So I'm either going home to the world or home to God.
So I'll, you know, as the days get closer, I can feel the
pressure on my shoulders. They call it clinical depression
where I just start having less motivation to do things, less
energy. You get frustrated at the at the
system. How can they not see, you know,
my situation is wrong? You know, I, I, I used to write
all the time and have a lot of energy and I just don't have it
anymore. I just feel like I've been
beaten down. And you were sent on a outward
bound. Trip into Florida, yeah, that
wasn't that well, you know, I'm a city boy at heart, you know
what I'm saying? I I'm really not into the nature
and bugs and and the the weather and I, you know, so you know,
when he, they sent me on a A2 week canoe trip, which sounds
wonderful for me. But yeah, you know, you know, I
like the canoe, but what it what was it wasn't the canoeing, it
was bad. It was, it is an Everglades.
I mean, we're seeing alligators everywhere.
Now my question is, and I didn't even realize that until I got
here. What happened?
If I would have fell out and got eaten by an alligator, who would
have been responsible? You know, did my parents sign
some type of waiver because there was alligators everywhere?
Well, a young man of 13, you better watch out and and handle
the alligators well. Yeah, yeah.
But what happened then? You, you didn't.
Well, I think on the 3rd or 4th day we would canoe until like
night time and pull in. I guess they had certain
designations marked. And sometimes we pull in like at
midnight, there's bugs. You can reach out and grab a
handful of bugs and then they want us to cook dinner.
And you know, I'm like, man, I can't.
And one of them things of the program was to teach you
immediate, you know, every action there's a there's a
reaction. So immediate consequences to
your decision. And one of the things I learned
is that if I don't pay attention to the lessons, we had these
bags for our property and you had a ceiling, right?
Or they wouldn't be waterproof. Well, I didn't listen and it
fell in the water and all my stuff got wet.
So I didn't have my own tent. I didn't have no toilet paper
anymore. And I didn't like that.
So basically I was my typical stubborn self.
And I told him, you know what? I ain't doing this no more.
Take Me Home. But you were not attacked by
alligators. No, we were attacked by monkeys
though. But monkeys were absolutely
monkeys were jumping from one side to the trees on the other
side we were at and come trying to come over there.
And they couldn't figure out where the monkeys came from.
But there was a whole bunch of them.
A whole bunch. I wanted to get out and get one
but they said they have diseases, right?
The details of of what happened, but the fact is that three
people were killed. And you deny that you were even
close to the scene or how how do you there's no longer a
question. There's no longer a question of
my innocence. That's the question is out the
door. The question is, what is anyone
going to do about it now? I mean, a perfect example is
you're here with these guys, They show up at your hotel room
in a car. You're going to assume that that
car is, you know, these are your friends.
So when Jason shows up to pick me up in a car, I'm going to
assume it's OK. You get it.
You get arrested and you come to find out he just murdered
someone from that car. You're going to end up on Texas
death row. You're going to end up right
here because you trusted one of these guys to show up and pick
you up in a in a real car that wasn't just stolen, but trusting
in Jason was a bad choice anyway.
Let's let's face it, he was well, you know, some sort of a
bad apple and so so were you. I was homeless and starving so
and where could I get my using drugs and stealing and drugs.
He offered me a place to stay. He offered me food, so I chose I
chose that which I shouldn't have.
I regret it every, every minute. Now.
Cherish every minute. Cherish every minute.
I'll make the most of it because you know they can.
They can, they can. Do you like me?
Be in the wrong situation at the wrong time and there's no
telling what you end up. You might want to get out of
Texas as soon as possible. You've got me annoyed with you
now. Yeah.
That's the truth. How mad are you?
I bet. Pretty.
I feel a little flushed. So that's means that I've
reached the point in my life that I'm a little annoyed.
What would you like to do Doesn't matter.
I don't think it's gone to the point that I'm actually going to
do anything stupid. Just curious to myself why it's.
Why it happened, I don't know why it happened.
I'm I'm actually almost glad it did happen because you had a
chance to see something, but I don't know why it's the why it
happened. Did you feel I was criticizing
you? Yes.
All I'm asking you to do, if you find in your heart Mr. Heaven,
is to give me a second chance of life.
How is the person you are now different from the person you
were when you got on death row 21 years ago?
More thoughtful. Love myself more.
I've I had the privilege of witnessing his compassion, his
thoughtfulness. And I'm not the only one.
He's had many other pen pals around the world and has had a
huge impact on their lives as well.
I understand too, that if I do get clemency, I know that
instead of dying on the 19th, I may die years later, but it
won't be in the free ground. It'll be in prison.
And I can accept it because there's other avenues and
prisons that I can take to better myself and to better
others along the way. And.
Yeah, someone tells you something.
There's bullshit. Right.
They're telling you something so they can set you up for
something they want you to do with them so they can move the
situation around. Towards you going to help.
Them I I guess. I guess people do that.
I don't know. I don't.
That's why I'm locked up. 45 years this time.
Yeah, it's for over. Over some bullshit.
Two years last time. It's a long time.
And you know why I've been locked up for these years.
Why is that? Because I had no help.
Yeah. I I, I, I think you're 100%
right. My mother went to prison, right?
And ain't nobody to back me up. It's a long hard Rd. represents.
They want to back me up and tell me I love you, Charlie, right?
There was some kind of game they want me to run and tell you
something so they can send you up for something.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
And those guys that you're talking to?
OK, those guys that you're talking, let's call Andrew.
Our telephone number will be monitored and recorded.
Did you ever read how many gears they cut off?
Who's that? I got a picture of you.
I know I've sent you quite a few.
I want to get one phone call. And I got three people.
I got a call. All righty.
I'm just telling you, man, only trust my knee.
OK, That's cute. That's that's such good advice.
Some don't tell anyone anything. Make it interpret and make it
something to tell. That's good advice.
If you say I've seen it, show me in the car.
They'll write and tell you that I stole the car, right?
Yeah. And they're two cents to make it
to the something they want. I got a.
Roll so I'll call you when I. Can.
All right, my brother. Thank you for calling man.
You take care of yourself. The clowning was relaxation for
me. I enjoyed entertaining kids like
some people are, you know, they they unwind in different ways.
Either we're going out drinking or that I could put on clown
makeup and I was relaxed and I enjoyed doing it.
I was twice. It was only twice a month that I
did. Yeah.
This was not using for a lure to to draw kids to you as as no we
would visit different hospitals. And entertain the children
there. And we didn't entertain them
with handcuffs or anything like that.
All we used was balloon animals and small toys and stuff like
that. But we also did parades and in
the summertime, like a 4th of July, I used to be in four
parades in one day. I've always told people when
when I got into clown makeup, I regressed in the childhood, it
was fun being a clown because you could, you could be yourself
or just let yourself go and act a fool.
You could be slapstick and funny and have a good a good time.
That's why I always enjoyed clowning.
Clowning has taken a bad name I because of what they've used in
my. I'm a patient person, got a good
listening ear and try to help people.
You're patient with a good ear, and you try to help people, yes.
When you're not trying to murder them, yes.
When Calendar's reign of terror ended, three were dead,
including his 14 year old son. You murdered your own son.
Yes, I did. Why did you do that?
He was a sacrifice. I was to murder 3 million
people, the planet Earth. And he was a sacrifice to see if
I could murder one of my own. At the end of murdering all the
people on earth, I was going to murder my own family and then
take my own life and become God. What do you think of the death
penalty? I'm opposed to it.
The state has no right to take your life, but you can murder
other people. I don't think anyone has the
right to take a life except you. When I'm under hallucination, I
do these voices from God. These hallucinations do you
still experience? Them.
Yes, I do often. Often.
Do you ever feel violent? Yes, I do.
What do you feel like doing? Killing people?
You still feel like killing people?
Yes. Describe the feeling that you
get when you feel like killing. People Well, last March 11th, I
was hallucinating and I took a razor blade and I cut a man's
throat. Here in the hospital.
Do you think you'd murder me,
Joe? Yes.
That's gruesome, Joe. That's horrible.
Yes, it is. And you don't blame me if I say
I hope you never get out of this place.
I hope I never do either. Altered.
Well, they weren't really spontaneous.
I altered how I approached these young ladies from the point of
capture, from the first time. What I had wanted to do was to
secure them and to suffocate them with plastic bags over
their heads. I've had some completely
unrealistic perspective that that was quick, that they would
lose consciousness rapidly. But the first young lady that
was in the back seat, that was Mary Ann Pesch, I finally
secured her. She argued a lot.
She was dialoguing, trying to change up control of the
situation. She had already decided I was in
control. I was trying to gain control.
I was convinced she was in control of it.
So for about 20 minutes, we were arguing back and forth over what
was going to happen and I was trying to keep it away from what
was intended, which was murder. And I decided at that time I
wasn't going to tell anyone I was going to rape them.
I didn't say that at the time, but I left that wide open is the
avenue that I was just going to be a sexual release.
And that got them very distressed.
And it was obvious to me that if I was going to pursue what I was
doing, that distress had to stop.
So I went into a unfortunately more effective behavior of
letting them help me. I let more of my personality
come out and I was suicidal, very disturbed, grasping out of
someone. I had abducted them and I wasn't
going to let them out of the car because I was tired of people
walking away from me. So some of that was very true.
But I manipulated that to allow them to help me to the point of
resolving their behavior until we got to a place where they
could be killed. And that has, I have the biggest
problem with that on my guilt basis, because obviously that
entailed unusual trust between the the captor of the
perpetrator and the victim of the crime.
At one point, in fact, on the 4th victim of the crime, Miss
Shaw, she actually got back into the trunk under her own power.
I had a cast on my left arm. It was broken.
And I walked her back to the trunk of the car where I told
her I was going to keep her undercover so that I could get
her to my home or we could talk. But I didn't want neighbors
seeing her coming to the house or leaving the house.
And it I made that sound realistic to her so she would
didn't want to get in the trunk but was willing to.
In 9th grade in biology class, we had the usual dissection of
fetal pigs. And I took, I took the remains
of that home and kept the skeleton of it.
And I just started branching out.
Dogs, cats. I suppose it could have turned
into a, a normal hobby like taxidermy.
And all I know is that I wanted to, to see what the insides of
these animals looked like. I I there may have been some
violence involved, some underlying subconscious feelings
of violence. I just it was a it was a
compulsion became a compulsion. What would you do with the with
the dead animals? Jeff take them back in the
woods, skin them sometimes slit them, slit them all the way
open. Look at the organs, feel them.
Can you describe what you were thinking is?
I was, It was just mystifying to me how how the insides of the
animal looked. There was a sort of general
excitement for me. I don't know why it was.
It was exciting to see and I acted on my fantasies and that's
where everything went wrong. Did you ever tell yourself?
I have to stop this. I must stop doing this.
Yes. When it was going on.
After, after the second time, it seemed like the compulsion to do
it was too strong. And I, I didn't even try to stop
it after that. But after, before the second
time, things had been building up gradually, going to
bookstores, going to the bars, the gay bars, bath clubs.
When that did, when that wasn't enough, buying sleeping pills
and and using it on various guys in the bath clubs, it just
escalated slowly but surely. And after the second time, which
was not planned, it was out of control.
Felt like it was out of control. Were you relieved to be
arrested? Part of me, part of me was and
part of me wasn't. Explain.
I don't know. It's, it's like, I don't believe
I have a split personality. But you, you know, the feeling
where, oh, you're, you're sort of glad about something, but on
the other hand, you're not. That's, that's how it was.
I was, it was a relief not to have to keep such a gigantic
secret that I had kept for so many years.
And once I saw that I had no choice but to face it, I decided
to face it head on and make a full confession.
So I am glad that the secrets are are gone.
I I just get angry with other people who, who think that they
have a right to, to somehow try to blame my parents for what
happened. That's not right at all.
No one has the right to do that because they're totally
innocent. They had no knowledge of it.
And that angers me. Ted, it is about 2:30 in the
afternoon. You are scheduled to be executed
tomorrow morning at 7:00 if you don't receive another stay.
What is going through your mind? What thoughts have you had in
these last few days? Well, I won't kid you to say
that it's something that I feel that I am in control of or
something that I've come to terms with because I haven't.
It's a moment by moment thing. Sometimes I feel very tranquil
and other times I don't feel tranquil at all.
What's going through my mind right now is to use the minutes
and hours that I have left as fruitfully as possible and see
what happens. It helps to to live in the
moment, in the in the essence that we use it productively.
So I'm right now, I'm feeling calm and in large part because
I'm here with you. For the record, you are guilty
of killing many women and girls. Yes, yes, that's true.
Ted, how did it happen? Take me back.
What are the antecedents of the behavior that we've seen?
So much grief, so much sorrow, so much pain for so many people.
Where did it start? How did this moment come about?
That's the question of the hour and and when.
One that not only people much more intelligent than I have
been working on for for years, but one that I've been working
on for years and trying to understand it.
Is there enough time to explain it all?
I don't know. I think I understand it though.
Understand what happened to me to the extent that I, I, I can
see how certain feelings and ideas developed in me to the
point where I began to act out on them certain very violent and
very destructive feeling. Let's go back then to those
roots. First of all, you, as I
understand it, were raised in what you consider to have been a
healthy home. You are not physically abused.
You are not sexually abused. You are not emotionally abused.
No, no way. I, and that's part of the
tragedy of this whole situation is because I grew up in a
wonderful home with two dedicated and loving parents,
one of five brothers and sisters, a home where we as our
as children with a focus of of my parents lives where we
regularly attended church. 2 Christian parents who did not
drink, they did not smoke. There was no gambling, there was
no physical abuse or fighting in the home.
I'm not saying this was Leave at the Beaver.
It wasn't a perfect no, no, no, I don't know that such a home
exists. But it was a fine, solid
Christian home and nobody, I hope no one will try to take the
easy way out and to try to blame or otherwise accuse my, my
family of contributing to this. Because I know, and I'm trying
to tell you as honestly as I know how, what happened.
And I think this is a message I'm going to get across.
But as a young, a young boy, and I mean the boy of 12/13
certainly that I encountered outside the home again in the
local grocery store, the local drugstore, the softcore
pornography, what people call softcore.
But as I think I I explained to you last night, Doctor Dobson,
an anecdote. As young boys do, we explored
the the back roads and sideways and byways of our neighborhood.
And often times people would dump the garbage and whatever
they're cleaning out of their house.
And from time to time we'd come across so pornographic books of
a harder nature than more graphic, you might say a more
explicit nature than we would encounter, let's say, in your
local grocery store. And this also included such
things as, let's say, detective magazines and those that involve
violence. Yes, yes.
And I, and this is something I think I want to emphasize is
the, the, the, the most damaging kinds of pornography.
And my, again, I'm talking from personal experience, hard, real
personal experience. The most damaging kinds of
pornography are those that involve violence and sexual
violence. Because the wedding of those two
forces as as I am know only too well brings about behaviour that
is just, is just too terrible to describe.
Now walk me through that. What was going on in your mind
at that time? OK, before we go any further, I
think, you know, it's important to me and the people, the people
believe what I'm saying, tell you that, that I'm not blaming
pornography and not saying that it caused me to go out and do
certain things. And I take full responsibility
for whatever I've done and all the things that I've done.
That's not the question here. The question and, and, and the
issue is how this kind of literature contributed and
helped mold and and shape the kinds of violent behaviour
fueled your falsies in the beginning.
It fuels this kind of thought process.
Then at a certain time, it's instrumental in what would say
crystallizing and making making into something which is almost
like a separate entity inside and that at that point you're at
the verge or I was at the verge of acting out on this on this
kind of these kinds of things. I really want to understand that
you had gone about as far as you could go in your own fantasy
life with printed material and you made or printed in video or
film or film magazines. What happened?
And, and then there was the urge to take that little step or big
step over to a physical event. And it happens it it happened in
stages, gradually. It doesn't necessarily, not to
me at least, happen overnight. My experience with, I'd say
pornography generally, but with pornography that deals on a
violent level with the sexuality, is that once you
become addicted to it, and I look at this as a kind of
addiction, like other kinds of addiction of addiction you keep,
I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more
gracious kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep
craving something which is harder, harder, something which
which gives you a greater sense of of of excitement until you
reach the point where the pornography only goes so far.
You reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if if
maybe actually doing it will give you that which is beyond
just reading about it or looking at it.
How long did you stay at that point before you actually
assaulted someone? Well, yeah.
You see, that is a very delicate point in my own development.
And we're talking about something.
We're talking about having reached the point or a Gray area
that surrounded that point over the course.
You don't remember years, how long?
Well, I would say, I would say a couple years.
And what was I was dealing with? There were very strong
inhibitions against criminal behavior or violent behavior
that had been conditioned into me, bred into me in my
environment, in my neighborhood, in my church, in my school,
things which said, no, this is wrong.
I mean, just even to think of it as wrong, but it certainly to do
it is wrong. And you're on I'm on that edge.
And these the last, the, the, you might say, the last vestiges
of restraint, the barriers to actually doing something, were
being tested constantly, and assault assailed through the
kind of fantasy life that was fueled largely by pornography.
Do you remember what pushed you over that edge?
Do you remember the decision to go for it?
Do you remember where you decided to throw caution to the
wind again? When you say pushed, I don't.
I know what you're saying. I don't want to infer again, I
understand that that I was that I was some helpless kind of a
victim. And yet we're talking about an
influence which that is the influence of violent types of
media and violent pornography, which hadn't was an
indispensable link in the chain of behaviour, the chain of
events that led to the behaviors to the, to the assaults, to the
murders and what and what have you.
It's a it's a very difficult thing to describe the, the
sensation of the the of, of reaching that point where you
where I knew that it, it was like something had say snapped
that I knew that, that I couldn't control it anymore,
that these barriers that that I had, that had been, I'd learned
as a child that had been instilled in me were not enough
to hold me back with respect to seeking out and and harming
somebody. Would it be accurate to call out
a, a, a frenzy, a sexual frenzy? Well, yes, that's one way to
describe it. A compulsion a a building up of
of this destructive energy Again, I another factor here the
way I haven't mentioned is the use of alcohol.
But I think that what alcohol did in conjunction with, let's
say, my exposure to pornography was alcohol reduced my
inhibitions. At the same time, the, the, the
fantasy life that was fuelled by pornography eroded them further.
In the early days, you were nearly always about half drunk
when you did these things. Is that right?
Yes. Yes.
Was that always true? Yeah.
I I would say that that was generally the case.
Almost. What?
All right, if I can understand
it now, there is this battle going on within.
There are the conventions that you've been taught.
There's the right and wrong that you learned as a child.
And then there is this this unbridled passion fuelled by
your plunge into hardcore violent pornography.
And those things are at war with each other.
And then with the alcohol diminishing the the inhibitions,
you let go. Well.
Yes, and to you can summarize it that way and it's accurate
certainly. And it, it just occurred to me
that some people would, would say that, well, I, I've seen
that stuff and it doesn't do anything to me.
And I can understand that. I virtually everyone can be
exposed to so-called pornography and while they're aroused to it
to 1° or another and not go out and do anything wrong.
Addictions are like that. They affect some people more
than they affect others. But there is a percentage of
people affected by hardcore pornography in a very violent
way. And you're obviously one of
them. That was a major component and I
don't know why I was vulnerable to it.
All I know is that that it had an impact on me that was just so
central to the development of the violent behaviour that I
engaged in. Ted, after you committed your
first murder, what was the emotional effect on you?
What happened in the days after that?
Well, again, this please understand that even all these
years later, it's very difficult to talk about it and, and, and
relieving it through talking about it.
It it's difficult to say the least, but I want you to
understand what happened. It was like coming out of some
kind of horrible trance or, or dream.
I can only liken it to after, you know, I, I don't want to
over dramatize it, but to have been possessed by something so
awful and so alien. And then the next morning, wake
up from it, remember what happened and realize that
basically, I mean, in the eyes of the law, certainly in the
eyes of God, you're responsible to, to wake up in the morning
and, and realize what I had done and with a clear mind and all my
essential moral and ethical feelings intact at that moment,
absolutely horrified that I was capable of doing something like
that. You really hadn't known that
before. There is just absolutely no way
to describe first the brutal urge to do that kind of thing.
And then what happens is once it it has been more or less
satisfied and recede, you might say, or spent that that sense,
that kind of energy level recedes.
And basically I became my myself again.
And I want people to understand this too.
And I'm not saying this gratuitously because it's
important that people understand this, that basically I was a
normal person. I wasn't some guy hanging out at
bars or a bum or I wasn't a pervert in the sense that, you
know, people look at somebody and say, I know there's
something wrong with him and just tell.
I mean, I, I was essentially a normal person.
I had good friends. I, I, I live a normal life
except for this one small but very potent and very destructive
segment of it that I kept very secret and very close to myself
and didn't let anybody know about it.
And part of the shock and horror from my dear friends and family
when, years ago, when I was first arrested, was that they
just, there was no clue. They looked at me and they
looked at the, you know, the, the all American boy.
And I'm, I mean, that wasn't perfect, but it was just, I want
to be quite candid with you. I was, I was OK, OK, I was.
And the basic humanity and and basic spirit that God gave me
was intact. But unfortunately it became
overwhelmed at times. I think people need to recognize
that it's not some kind of those of us who are, who have been so
much influenced by violence in the media, in particular
pornographic violence are not some kinds of inherent monsters.
We are your sons and we are your husbands and we grew up in
regular families and pornography can reach out and snatch a kid
out of any house today. He snatched me out of my He
snatched me out of my home 20-30 years ago.
And as diligent as my parents were, and they were diligent in
protecting their children and as good a Christian home as we had
and we had a wonderful Christian home.
There is no protection against the kind that the kinds of
influences that are loose in the society that that that
tolerates. You feel this really deeply,
don't you, Ted? Outside these walls right now,
there are several 100 reporters that wanted to talk to you.
And you asked me to come here from California because you had
something you wanted to say. This hour that we have together
is not just an interview with a man who's scheduled to die
tomorrow morning. I'm here and you're here because
of this message that you're talking about right here.
You really feel that hardcore pornography and the doorway to
it. Softcore pornography is doing
untold damage to other people and causing other women to be
abused and killed the way you did ours.
Listen, I'm no social scientist and I haven't done a survey.
I mean, I, I don't pretend that I know what John Q Citizen
thinks about this, but I've lived in prison for a long time
now and I've met a lot of men who are motivated to commit
violence just like me. And without exception, every one
of them was deeply involved in pornography without question,
without exception, deeply influenced and consumed by an
addiction to pornography. There's no question about it.
The FB is own study on serial homicide shows that the most
common interest among serial killers is pornography.
That's true and it's and it's real.
It's true, Ted. What would your life have been
like without that influence? You can only speculate.
Yeah, well, I I know it would have been far better, not just
for me and, and it's excuse me for being so self-centered here.
It would have been a lot better for me and lots of other people.
I know that. Lots of other innocent people,
victims and families. It would have been a lot better.
There's no question but that it would have been a, a, a, a
fuller life. It's certainly a life that would
not have involved. I'm absolutely certain would not
have involved this kind of violence that I have been, that
I have committed. I'm sure, Ted, if you know, if I
were able to ask you the questions that are being asked
out there, one of the most important as you come down to
perhaps your final hours, are you thinking about all those
victims out there in their families who are so wounded you
know, years later their lives have not returned to normal,
They will never return to normal?
Are you carrying that load that way?
Is the remorse there? Again, I, I know that people
will accuse me of being self-serving, but we're beyond
that now. I mean, I'm just telling you how
I feel. But through God's help, I have
been able to come to the point where I've much too late.
But better late than never Feel the hurt and the pain that I am
responsible for. Yes, absolutely.
In the past few days, myself and a number of investigators have
been talking about unsolved cases, murders that I was
involved in. And it's hard to, it's hard to
talk about all these years later because it revives in me all
those terrible feelings and those thoughts that I have
steadfastly and, and, and, and diligently dealt with and I
think successfully with the love of God.
And yet it's reopened that and I felt the pain and I felt the
horror again of all that. And I can only hope that those
who I've harmed, those who I've caused so much grief, even if
they don't believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, will
believe what I'm saying now. That there is loose in their
towns and their communities. People like me today, whose
dangerous impulses are being fueled day in and day out by
violence in the media in its various forms, particularly
sexualized violence. And what scares me.
And let's come into the present now because what I'm talking
about happened 3020, thirty years ago.
That is in my formative stages. And what scares and appalls me,
Doctor Dobson, is when I see what's on cable TV, some of the
movies, I mean, some of the violence in the movies that come
into homes today with stuff that they that they wouldn't show in
an X-rated adult theatres 30 years ago.
This stuff, the slasher movies that you're talking about, that
stuff is, I'm telling you from personal experience the most.
That is graphic violence on screen, particularly as it gets
into the home to children who may be unattended or or unaware
that they may be a Ted Bundy who has that that vulnerability to
that, that predisposition to be influenced by that kind of
behavior, by that kind of of movie, that kind of violence.
There are kids sitting out there switching the TV dial around and
come upon these movies late at night or I don't know when
they're on, but they're on and any kid can watch them.
It's scary when I think what would have happened to me if I
had seen it was scary enough. I mean, that I just ran into
stuff outside the home. But to to know that children are
watching that kind of thing today or can pick up their phone
and dial away for it or send away for it.
Can you help me understand this desensitization process that
took place? What was going on in your mind?
Well, by desensitization, I describe it in specific terms,
is that each time I'd harm someone, each time I'd kill
someone, there'd be an enormous amount, especially at first,
enormous amount of of of horror, guilt, remorse afterwards.
But then that impulse to do it again would come back even
stronger. Now, believe me, I didn't.
The unique thing about how this worked, Doctor Dobson, is that I
still felt in my regular life the full range of, of guilt and,
and remorse about other things, regret.
And you had this compartmentalized, this
compartmentalized, very well focused, very sharply focused
area where I, it was like a black hole.
It was like a, you know, like a crack.
And everything that fell into that crack just disappeared.
Yeah, it does. One of the the final murders
that you committed, of course, was apparently little Kimberly
Leach, 12 years of age. I think the the public outcry is
greater there because an innocent child was taken from a
from a playground. What did you feel after that?
What was there? Were there the normal emotions?
Three days later? Where were you, Ted?
I, I can't really talk about that right now.
That's who we are. That's too painful.
I would like to, I'd like to be able to convey to you what that,
that that experience is like, but I can't, I won't be able to
talk about that. I can't begin to understand.
Well, I can try, but I'm, I'm aware that I can't begin to
understand the pain that the parents of these of these
children that I have and these young women that I have harmed
feel. And I can't restore really much
to them, if anything. And I will pretend to.
And I don't even expect them to forgive me.
And I'm not asking for it. That that kind of forgiveness is
of God. And if they have it, they
haven't, they don't. Well, maybe they'll find it
someday. Do you deserve the punishment
the state is inflicted upon you? That's a very good question and
I'll answer very, very honestly. I don't want to die.
I'm not going to kid you. I'll kid you not.
I deserve certainly the the most extreme punishment society has
and I deserve, I think society deserves to be protected from me
and from others like me, that's for sure.
I think what I what I hope will come of our discussion is I
think society deserves to be protected from itself because
because of we as as we've been talking, there are there are
forces that loosen in in this country, particularly again,
this kind of violent pornography where on the one hand, well
meaning, decent people will condemn behavior of a Ted Bundy
while they're walking past a a magazine rack full of the very
kinds of things that send young kids down the road to be Ted
Bundys. That's the irony.
We're talking here not just about more, we're talking I'm.
What I'm talking about is going beyond retribution, which is
what people want with me. Going beyond retribution and
punishment because there is no way in the world that killing me
is going to restore those beautiful children to their
parents and, and, and correct and, and, and, and soothe the
pain. But I'll tell you, there are
lots of other kids playing in the streets around this country
today who are going to be dead tomorrow and the next day and
the next day and next month because other young people are
reading the kinds of things and seeing the kinds of things that
are available in the media today.
Ted, as you would imagine, there's tremendous cynicism
about you on the outside. And I suppose for good reason.
I'm not sure that there's anything that you could say that
people would would believe. Some people would believe and
and yet you told me last night, and I have heard this through
our mutual friend John Tanner, that you have accepted the
forgiveness of Jesus Christ and are a follower and a believer in
him. Do you draw strength from that
as you approach these final hours?
I do. I can't say that it's going to
be being in the the valley of the shadow of death is it's
something that I've become all that accustomed to and then I'm,
you know, and then I'm strong and nothing's bothering me.
Listen, it's no fun. It's it's, you know, it's, it's,
it's gets kind of lonely. And yet I have to remind myself
that every one of us will go through this someday in one way
or another. And countless millions who have
walked this earth before us have.
So this is just an experience which we all share.
Yeah, right on. And I'm telling you because the
cops let me keep killing them. Nick.
Nick, Nick, get it? Not everybody is killing seven
people. So there must have been
something in you that was getting you.
Oh, you are lost, Nick. You are lost, Nick.
I was a hitch hiking hooker.
You're inhuman. You're an inhumane bunch of
fucking living bastards and bitches and you're going to get
your asses nuked in the end. And pretty soon it's coming.
2019, a rock's supposed to hitch you anyhow.
You're all going to get nuked. You don't take fucking human
life like this and just sabotage and RIP it apart like Jesus on
the cross and say thanks a lot for all the fucking money I made
off of you and not care about a human being.
And the truth being told, now I know what Jesus was going
through. They've been trying to tell the
truth and I keep getting it stepped on, concerned about if I
was raped. If I, I'm not giving you book
and movie info, I'm giving you info for investigations and
stuff and that's it. We're going to have to cut this
interview, Nick. I'm not going to go into any
more detail.