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Well, I'm a serial killer. 
I've killed 8 women, 6IN this 

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state and two in New York. 
I'm not a big serial killer, by 

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the way. 88 people, that's 
nothing. 

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I mean, there's, there's a lot 
of other guys you can go see. 

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I saw this woman walking along 
the road with a stroller. 

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I pulled off the side of the 
road. 

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She came into the driveway, 
walked up the driveway. 

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I was behind the house. 
She saw me and I grabbed her. 

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I told her that if she didn't do
what I I wanted that I would 

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smash the baby's head against 
the wall of the house. 

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Where I think that's important 
is I've always said that I never

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understood why the women never 
really resisted me. 

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I never I'm not a big strong 
guy. 

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Nobody ever seemed to fight and 
I've always had attributed to 

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that. 
I must say something like that. 

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Similar to to the other victims.
I raped her strangler. 

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I left her for dead. 
The only reason she's not dead 

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is has nothing nothing to do 
with me. 

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So when I attacked her, I don't 
believe I was in control. 

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I don't think I could have 
stopped. 

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Reason I say that is because 
there's a very clear point to me

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after she was dead, when I was 
feeling well, I didn't really 

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feel anything. 
I mean, I knew what was going on

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and and I saw what was going on,
but it was more like watching an

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old film that we used to see as 
kids in the high school, you 

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know, I mean, in elementary 
school, they've been played so 

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many times. 
They're all spliced and and it'd

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be going along and then jump. 
You would think that if you 

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killed somebody that you would 
have that face imprinted in your

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mind and that you wouldn't be 
able to get it out of your mind.

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I don't have that. 
I never had that. 

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The only only face that I can 
see is what was in the 

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newspapers a few days later when
they were when they were 

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missing. 
You know, like the high school 

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picture. 
Anybody know where this girl is 

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type thing. 
That's when I think of them. 

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That's the picture I see. 
I don't see them as they were 

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when I killed them. 
I can't see them as I was 

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killing them. 
When I say I don't have any 

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remorse, that doesn't mean that 
I don't have any regrets, that I

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don't wish that didn't happen 
there. 

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There was something I could do 
to bring them back or anything. 

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It's just that I don't have any 
feelings towards them. 

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I don't feel, I feel like I 
should be tormented by by by 

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what they look like when I was 
killing them or by tormented by 

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what was happening immediately 
before I killed them and stuff. 

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And none of that's there. 
None of that's there at all. 

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If I had to choose between 
whether I'm going to be executed

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on Thursday or know that I'm 
going to spend the rest of my 

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days in prison and die an old 
man, old and broken, I would 

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rather die in prison. 
I just swung on him with the 

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tire iron and kept swinging 
until he was down. 

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It's like banging your head on a
brick wall. 

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It really is. 
The thing is, nobody wants to 

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listen. 
I never talked to the police. 

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I never gave a statement. 
I regret that now. 

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I wish. 
I wish I would have been more 

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like so many of these guys who 
do get arrested and they just 

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don't shut up, You know, I wish 
I had told them everything up 

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front. 
Maybe one of the benefits of me 

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talking to you today is that 
you'll see that maybe not 

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everything is true, that you've 
heard about me. 

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Well, am I, am I pure evil? 
Am I the face of terror sitting 

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here in front of you? 
Or am I able to talk to you man 

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to man? 
But sitting down here now and 

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let me make clear, I'm not 
sitting here trying to influence

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you and I'm not putting on a 
game face. 

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I'm not counting anybody. 
I'm just being me. 

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So I I got to ask you how you 
how are you feeling this 

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morning? 
A little numb. 

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I mean, I don't know how it is 
how you would expect someone to 

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feel. 
I mean, if they told you 

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tomorrow you're dying, how would
you feel? 

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It's not something we all die, 
but it's knowing your exact date

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and time that's that's hard to 
deal with. 

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But I'm at peace with myself. 
I mean, as far as it's my 

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release, my punishment's over. 
I've been here 28 years now. 

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I'm tired so. 
You've been here 28 years. 

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I've. 
Been locked up 28 years since 

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December the 9th 1987 so I'm a 
little tired and in confinement.

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And explain what that's like. 
Imagine spending 28 years in 

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this room. 
There's no way to describe it. 

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Exceptionally, it's 
exceptionally difficult. 

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I've had a lot of support. 
A lot of people love me and care

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about me. 
A lot of lot of support outside.

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That's made it a little easier, 
but still, it's very difficult 

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to spend 20 years in a room like
this. 

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A lot of thinking you. 
Have to be able to look in the 

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mirror like yourself. 
Do you like yourself? 

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Yeah, I'm comfortable with 
myself. 

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There's a lot of things in my 
younger, in my past, you know, I

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wish I could change, but I'm at 
peace with myself. 

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The state's about to kill me and
they think they're getting 

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justice and I'm like, well, I'm 
not getting justice, they're 

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just going to kill somebody 
else. 

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I was like, and I'd like, They 
killed me 28 years ago when they

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locked me up. 
Now they're just releasing me. 

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So you're saying you didn't 
murder these women? 

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No. 
You didn't murder Natalie 

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Hawley, Stephanie Collins, no 
Terri Lynn Matthews. 

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No, I didn't know. 
I've never seen them, never met 

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them. 
And I I I met them through 

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photographs, through crime scene
photos, through newspaper 

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articles. 
I've gotten to know them fairly 

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well through newspaper articles 
and crime scene photos, police 

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reports. 
So 10 juries convicted you 

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though. 
Yes, 10 Juries heard the same 

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evidence repeatedly, over and 
over and over. 

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Nothing changed. 
Evidence linking you to the 

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murders. 
Yes, people's testimony in the 

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physical evidence. 
What physical evidence actually 

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linked me? 
There's hair and fibers, right? 

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Hair and fibers that Mike Malone
prepared, not from me. 

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So I've been hearing you talk 
for the last 20 minutes and 

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you're you're going over the 
case, you're going over the 

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evidence and, and talking about 
it being flawed and tainted and 

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planted. 
So is Florida basically killing 

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an innocent man? 
Yes, for for the murder of 

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Stephanie Collins, Natalie Holly
and Terry Lee and Matthews and 

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they're about to execute me for 
Terry Lee and Matthews murder. 

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They execute someone who did 
absolutely did not commit that 

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murder. 
So you're innocent? 

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There was another man confessed 
to it. 

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So you're innocent? 
Absolutely innocent of the 

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murder. 
I had nothing to do with it. 

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Are you going to have anything 
final to say right before the 

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injection? 
No, that's my release. 

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They're not going to get no 
justice out of that. 

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They won't. 
If, if anything, they'll leave 

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angry, They'll say, well, that 
was too easy, there was nothing 

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there. 
Is it going to change anything 

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for them when they wake up the 
day after? 

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Is anything going to be 
different now? 

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I'm not going to be there. 
Where's their focus or their 

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anger now? 
They're still going to be 

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without their child. 
They're still going to be numb, 

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you know, maybe it won't happen 
today. 

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Maybe it'll happen a week or six
weeks, or maybe something will 

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happen a year down the road or 
whatever. 

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Then they'll say, wow, maybe 
something will change. 

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They'll say, well, maybe I want 
to look at the evidence. 

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Might be too late for me, but 
they owe it to their child. 

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I would if it was my child. 
They owe their child that much. 

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Are you going to be looking at 
them right before you're 

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executed? 
Well, if they're in the window, 

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I probably will. 
Eye to eye, you're going to look

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at all of them. 
Well, I don't know. 

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It depends if I can see them or 
not. 

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But you plan to. 
Oh, if I can see them, yes. 

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And would you say anything? 
I don't know if I'll say 

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anything because I don't know if
it would do any good, you know, 

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What would you say to them? 
I encourage you to examine the 

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evidence. 
Hire an independent, someone 

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that you trust, someone you feel
comfortable with, and go through

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it. 
Is that what you're going to 

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say? 
That's what I would say. 

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That's all I can say. 
I didn't do it. 

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You're not going to believe me. 
Fine, then there's no point in 

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saying that. 
But don't take my word for it. 

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Don't take the police. 
Do an independent analysis. 

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Let them do it. 
Did. 

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They tell you what time the 
execution takes place. 

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Well, I think it's scheduled for
6:00 PM. 

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But I was like, after 28 years 
of this, it's been in this box 

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for 28 years. 
It's a release my punishments 

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over. 
They can't hurt me no more so. 

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So what do you do in your cell 
all those years sitting in 

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there? 
Read. 

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Read what? 
Books about what I read, 

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everything I read all of them. 
The, you know, the, the works of

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art, the philosophers, 
Nietzsche, I've read them all. 

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History. 
I mean, you're limited to what 

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you can do. 
The reading's pretty much the 

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00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,160
only thing writing, reading, 
writing. 

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I have ATVI watched TV, staying 
up on the world events and 

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politics and stuff. 
What do you watch? 

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00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,200
Anything in politics that's 
interesting to you? 

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00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:39,840
Mostly watched the PBS shows, 
the offbeat news programs 'cause

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they're more in depth, more 
coverage, a lot of the 

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00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,400
masterpiece mysteries and stuff 
like that. 

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00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,920
I didn't watch a lot of the 
mainstream TV. 

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Do artwork, Draw what? 
Do you draw? 

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00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,800
I did different types of 
drawings for Rosalie, for the 

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kids I didn't draw for, nobody 
else, even for her. 

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00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,680
But hopefully someday the truth 
will come out. 

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00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:10,000
Unless, I mean, it might be too 
late for me. 

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00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,920
It's too late for me 28 years 
ago. 

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00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:19,840
I came to prison 28 years ago. 
So had I not been in prison for 

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the Ohio case, maybe not just 
what happened, maybe my 

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credibility would have been 
different. 

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00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,040
I don't know. 
In hindsight, you can set back 

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00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,600
and say, well, there's a lot of 
what ifs or I should have, but 

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00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:36,960
you can't change that. 
We get one go around and I have 

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00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:38,600
to accept the hand that was 
dealt me. 

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00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,400
Some of us don't get the 
opportunity. 

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Dying down, nurse. 
Not as bad as dying the car 

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wreck or upside down the ditch 
or, you know, house fire or or 

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00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,640
like the victims died or I mean,
there's many worse ways to go. 

199
00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,840
At least I had the opportunity 
to say goodbye to my people. 

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00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:04,440
I had a chance to prepare 
myself. 

201
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:21,560
I haven't, you know, so. 
Do you know how many people you 

202
00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:26,880
murdered? 
Yeah, but I'd rather I'd rather 

203
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,440
not mention it. 
By my count, it's 22 people. 

204
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,040
Is that the same number that you
have? 

205
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,720
That's approximately it. 
I wished I could go back and 

206
00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:37,040
change things, but there's no 
way I can do it. 

207
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,400
So I'll try to do it, you know, 
make the best of it if I had. 

208
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,240
Some way to make amends to them?
I would try to do that. 

209
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,760
You know it, being locked up in 
here on death row. 

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00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,440
With with an execution date a 
week away, I can't really do a 

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00:13:49,440 --> 00:14:04,360
whole lot for them. 
Do you think about those two 

212
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,400
boys in Cincinnati? 
No, I don't really think about 

213
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,160
them. 
I mean, I can't go back and 

214
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,720
think about the cases. 
You know, individually I have 

215
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,760
too much other problems, too 
much other things I have to 

216
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,240
focus on and worry about. 
You know, those are two young 

217
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,600
boys, just 13 or 14 years old. 
Yeah, it was, you know, I regret

218
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,840
the fact that I shot them. 
Now why did you shoot them? 

219
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,360
Well, I was just waiting out, 
sitting on that railroad track, 

220
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,360
waiting for the first either 
interracial couple or black to 

221
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,680
walk by and. 
What was your mission? 

222
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,400
Well to try to get a race war 
started a mixed race couples and

223
00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,000
blacks. 
I figured if once I started 

224
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,760
doing it and showed them how 
other white supremacists would 

225
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,160
do the same thing, follow suit. 
So you hope people would copy? 

226
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,200
I would hope, Yeah, I hope. 
That other white nationalists 

227
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,640
would do the same thing. 
Do you think you're a hero to 

228
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,400
those hate groups? 
Well, that's what they tell me, 

229
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:08,200
you know, I just felt like I was
at war, you know, and it was the

230
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,600
survival of the white race was 
at stake, stuff like that, you 

231
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,640
know? 
Do you feel that way now? 

232
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,680
No, not at all. 
No, I can see now it's wrong. 

233
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,000
It's it's wrong. 
Violence is wrong at any time, 

234
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,040
you know, do. 
You feel that way because you 

235
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:24,960
got caught. 
No, not at all. 

236
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,040
No, as a matter of fact, it 
took. 

237
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,320
Me. 
Many, many. 

238
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,560
Years to change. 
I actually thought as misguided 

239
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,480
as I was, I was doing the will 
of God. 

240
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:37,920
You know, I. 
Thought I was. 

241
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,760
Actually doing right. 
This is what God wanted me to 

242
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,600
do. 
But the police were pursuing. 

243
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,200
First time I killed somebody, it
was such a rush. 

244
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,520
How many people have you killed,
Lord? 

245
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,560
I don't know. 
I don't. 

246
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,200
Know 10? 
Yeah, 20. 

247
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:12,040
Probably 30. 
It's up there 50, but see. 

248
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,760
I'm not. 
Billy the Kid making notches on 

249
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:22,040
on my my poster. 
So I know it's been a lot. 

250
00:16:33,210 --> 00:16:36,250
I am hatred. 
When you look at me, you look at

251
00:16:36,250 --> 00:16:37,850
hate. 
When I look at you, I look at 

252
00:16:37,850 --> 00:16:39,610
hate. 
When you look at me, you know 

253
00:16:39,610 --> 00:16:43,330
what hate is because I don't 
know what love is. 2 words I 

254
00:16:43,330 --> 00:16:47,730
don't like to use is love and 
sorry because I'm about hate. 

255
00:16:48,050 --> 00:16:52,920
I don't have no feelings no 
more, no emotion? 

256
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,440
No. 
And I like to watch the eyes 

257
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,920
fade, the pupil fade. 
What do you like about that? 

258
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,599
It it's just like setting their 
soul free. 

259
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,680
You also killed children. 
Some get killed, yes. 

260
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,760
Now why would that happen? 
I didn't want them to live 

261
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,200
through the pain I lived 
through. 

262
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,960
What did you do to her, Sir? 
Her neck was cut. 

263
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,520
How did you do that? 
With a knife. 

264
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,119
So what if I called you 
something that you didn't like 

265
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,400
and you'd think about killing 
me? 

266
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:37,080
Well, if we was in a fight, you 
know, get your head down in the 

267
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,800
concrete, then, you know, so be 
it. 

268
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,160
But what happens when my head 
goes down to the concrete? 

269
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,080
Well, what do you think 
happened? 

270
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:58,280
It cracked like a coconut. 
Why do you want to be executed? 

271
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,920
I have to be because I will kill
again. 

272
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,280
No, I would do it again. 
I've been molesting kids 

273
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,480
non-stop since I was 13 years 
old. 

274
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:15,640
Over half my life anything 
happened I can guarantee I'd do 

275
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,960
it again and sooner or later I 
would kill another child. 

276
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,880
I've done it before and at the 
time I liked it. 

277
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:34,400
Did your execution do any good? 
I think it would. 

278
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:40,320
I think a few child molesters 
anyway are going to think twice 

279
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,400
before they do anything again. 
How do you live with yourself 

280
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:50,640
daily? 
At times it's not easy, I said. 

281
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,440
There's times I think about what
I've done. 

282
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,960
I think about some of the things
the boys said before they died 

283
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,840
and and that's real hard to 
think about. 

284
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,280
At other times, they just try to
put everything out of my mind. 

285
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:12,000
Do you look forward to dying? 
In a way, yeah, I could be a 

286
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,320
relief. 
I don't have to think about all 

287
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:20,640
these things anymore. 
And I know that's the only way I

288
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,560
can guarantee I'm not going to 
hurt anybody else. 

289
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,680
Total, you know, isolation from 
everybody that I had been with 

290
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,880
for almost 6 years. 
The first week I was here was 

291
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:43,640
the worst week. 
The last 10 years was just like 

292
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:49,760
that. 
Years of a drug nightmare days. 

293
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,720
Of not knowing where. 
You are or what you've done. 

294
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:09,880
Living in prison every day is a 
struggle even at its best, and I

295
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:14,360
know that without him and his 
strength that has sustained me, 

296
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:16,200
I couldn't have made it even 
this far. 

297
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:26,960
I'm sorry for the hurt that I've
caused so many people today, if 

298
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,000
it were possible. 
I wish that I could take every 

299
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:41,040
bit of hurt on myself. 
You want to control your 

300
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,040
destiny. 
That's that's right. 

301
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,280
That's right. 
That's a good way to, I mean, 

302
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,040
that's what this is all about. 
That's a good way to say it. 

303
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,600
You got two types of people. 
You got people that lead and 

304
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,680
people that follow. 
And I just decided I wasn't 

305
00:20:53,680 --> 00:21:00,480
going to be a follower. 
How many people have you killed?

306
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,680
I mean, what is it that you want
to come clean about? 

307
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,480
I have several homicides that I 
personally have dealings with 

308
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,000
and there's been other people 
that was involved, but I'll 

309
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,200
never reveal their names ever 
because has nothing to do. 

310
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,840
This is me. 
This is my and my life. 

311
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,800
I'm writing this story. 
When this all first started, I 

312
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,200
was in the Ohio penitentiary. 
I'd come to a decision in the 

313
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,200
Ohio prison that I was serving 
26 to life there. 

314
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,840
And I just, I just, I can't 
conceive that amount of time. 

315
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,360
The information that I have and 
the things that I know and the 

316
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:41,240
things that I've been a part of 
could get me to where I wanted 

317
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,400
to be probably a lot quicker 
because I'd rather be, to be 

318
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,600
honest with you. 
I'd rather be deceased, dead, 

319
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,080
than to be spend my life in 
prison and watch my family drop 

320
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,720
off 1 by 1. 
And when I die in the end of an 

321
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,200
old man from being in prison, no
one left to mourn me when I'm 

322
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,720
dead. 
Let me ask you, John, how does 

323
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,480
it does it make it easier to 
kill someone because you, you 

324
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,840
vision everything you look at 
everything other than your 

325
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,440
family is just one and the same,
basically an object. 

326
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,520
Does that make it easier? 
I would have to say it would for

327
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,160
I can't conceive or understand 
why people, families want to, 

328
00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:29,760
they seek for closure after 
things like this. 

329
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,200
I can't, I don't understand 
that. 

330
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,280
I don't understand how you got 
people that like in militaries 

331
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:40,200
that kill people, soldiers and 
then they have to go through 

332
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,680
therapy and, and 'cause they're,
I mean, I, I can't understand 

333
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,840
what it is that people, I can't 
figure it out why, why they feel

334
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,080
bad, why they feel that way. 
So what, what is it that you 

335
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,360
want to happen next? 
I know that you, you know, you 

336
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:00,240
basically want to control your 
destiny and you want people to 

337
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,200
listen. 
And what, where, where do you go

338
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,760
next? 
I mean, what, what happens? 

339
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,200
But I'm still see the end for 
me, it's it'll be soon, it'll be

340
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,640
within, it'll be within my 
family's lifetime. 

341
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,560
And which is OK with me because 
what you want is to die. 

342
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,880
That's correct. 
That's the only thing worthy of 

343
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,320
a warrior, I guess you could 
say. 

344
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,160
Tell me in a sentence who you 
are. 

345
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:40,280
Nobody. 
I'm nobody. 

346
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,800
Death. 
It happens to everybody. 

347
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,720
I'm not. 
I don't fear being dying. 

348
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,800
The only thing I that I even 
worry about is the emotions that

349
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,440
my family might feel. 
When you die, where do you think

350
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:55,720
you'll go? 
Do you think death will be 

351
00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:03,000
better? 
I personally feel that that 

352
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:10,160
personally that if there is a 
God if if there is a devil. 

353
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,080
But you're not much. 
In answering my direct question,

354
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,040
a lot was made that you're a 
devil worshipper. 

355
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,560
Do you worship the devil? 
Have you ever studied Satanism? 

356
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,640
I personally don't care either 
way because I refuse to worship 

357
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:29,600
anything that I can't. 
That's not, you know, tangible 

358
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,160
or made yourself known to me or 
I feel like it's a conspiracy. 

359
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,160
You know what I'm saying? 
And I so I'll never bow down to 

360
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,680
anything or anybody. 
It's not in my blood. 

361
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,400
And if there is a God or a 
devil, if I go, if I could get 

362
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,400
sent the whatever use, but hell,
if I get sent there, I'll spend 

363
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,760
my whole life trying to eternity
trying to take over hell. 

364
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,120
Because I'll bow down to no 
person, no entity, no being, no 

365
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:02,200
God of this world, no God of any
other world or any other 

366
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:09,380
universe. 
Kill 13 people. 

367
00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:15,940
It would be improper for me to 
comment on my LA convictions and

368
00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:17,980
on my pending case here in San 
Francisco. 

369
00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:20,540
Why? 
Because of my appeals. 

370
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,680
Are you appealing these because 
you say you're innocent? 

371
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,560
You didn't kill 13 people. 
That is correct. 

372
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,080
You didn't kill 13 people. 
Again, it would be improper for 

373
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,200
me to comment in any regard to 
that question. 

374
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,160
You have now entered a very rare
group of people in this country.

375
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,440
You're in the the ranks of 
Charlie Manson, Ted Bundy. 

376
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,280
You claim you didn't commit 
these murders, but you're right 

377
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,280
in there. 
Now, as far as everybody else is

378
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,680
just serial killers do on a 
small scale what governments do 

379
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,880
on a large one. 
They are a product of the times.

380
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,720
And these are bloodthirsty 
times. 

381
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,480
Even psychopaths have emotions 
if you dig deep enough. 

382
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,240
But then again, maybe they 
don't. 

383
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,360
Do you have emotions, Richard? 
No comment. 

384
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,080
Tell me what kind of emotions 
you got going through you right 

385
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,600
now. 
I'll tell you what. 

386
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,800
I gave up on love and happiness 
a long time ago. 

387
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,440
Why I I don't care to explain 
that. 

388
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,880
Let the let the quote stand for 
itself, people. 

389
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,360
People in this day and age are 
brainwashed and programmed like 

390
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:32,440
a computer at being nothing more
than puppets. 

391
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,520
This nation, this country is 
founded in violence. 

392
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,280
Violent delights tend to have 
violent ends. 

393
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,480
It's madness is something rare 
in individuals, but in groups, 

394
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,800
people in ages, it is a rule. 
Killing is killing, whether done

395
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,280
for duty, profit or fun. 
Men murdered themselves into 

396
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,000
this democracy. 
You, you got to read in your 

397
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,000
script, Richard, but you're not 
much in answering my direct 

398
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,280
question. 
A lot was made that you're a 

399
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,120
devil worshipper. 
Do you worship the devil? 

400
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:18,000
Have you ever studied Satanism? 
There are different sects of 

401
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,200
Satanism. 
Have you just yes or no? 

402
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:21,680
Have you studied Satanism? 
Yes, I have. 

403
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,800
Are you, are you a worshipper of
the devil? 

404
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,000
No comment. 
Come on, Richard, I can tell you

405
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,440
a little bit about Satanism. 
Well, I'm, I'm interested in 

406
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,280
hearing what you got to say. 
Then it is undefiled wisdom 

407
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,480
instead of hypocritical self 
deceit. 

408
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,200
It is power, power without 
charity, but. 

409
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,640
Satan admits to being evil. 
Do you admit to being evil, 

410
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,720
Richard? 
We are all evil. 

411
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:50,600
In some form or another, are we 
not? 

412
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,160
I'm asking you the questions, my
friend. 

413
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,080
Yes, I am evil. 
Not 100%, but I am evil. 

414
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,920
Evil has always existed. 
The perfect world most people 

415
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,840
seek shall never come to pass. 
And it's going to get worse. 

416
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,920
Your father passed away OK on 
the 10th. 

417
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,920
My dad died 13 days ago. 13 
days. 

418
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,720
Ago on June 10th. 
But you will. 

419
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,040
Die or you are scheduled for 
execution for only 8 days? 

420
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,160
Yes, Sir. 
How are you doing? 

421
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,440
You know, you know, I'm a 
Christian, so you know, I 

422
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,000
believe that, you know, paradise
awaits one way or the other. 

423
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,680
So I tell people all the time 
I'm either going home or home. 

424
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,800
So I'm either going home to the 
world or home to God. 

425
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,280
So I'll, you know, as the days 
get closer, I can feel the 

426
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,720
pressure on my shoulders. 
They call it clinical depression

427
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,400
where I just start having less 
motivation to do things, less 

428
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,000
energy. 
You get frustrated at the at the

429
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,520
system. 
How can they not see, you know, 

430
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,160
my situation is wrong? 
You know, I, I, I used to write 

431
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,720
all the time and have a lot of 
energy and I just don't have it 

432
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,480
anymore. 
I just feel like I've been 

433
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,280
beaten down. 
And you were sent on a outward 

434
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,480
bound. 
Trip into Florida, yeah, that 

435
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,440
wasn't that well, you know, I'm 
a city boy at heart, you know 

436
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,400
what I'm saying? 
I I'm really not into the nature

437
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,960
and bugs and and the the weather
and I, you know, so you know, 

438
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,360
when he, they sent me on a A2 
week canoe trip, which sounds 

439
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,840
wonderful for me. 
But yeah, you know, you know, I 

440
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,320
like the canoe, but what it what
was it wasn't the canoeing, it 

441
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:34,880
was bad. 
It was, it is an Everglades. 

442
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,440
I mean, we're seeing alligators 
everywhere. 

443
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,800
Now my question is, and I didn't
even realize that until I got 

444
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:40,400
here. 
What happened? 

445
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,280
If I would have fell out and got
eaten by an alligator, who would

446
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,800
have been responsible? 
You know, did my parents sign 

447
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,320
some type of waiver because 
there was alligators everywhere?

448
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,640
Well, a young man of 13, you 
better watch out and and handle 

449
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,680
the alligators well. 
Yeah, yeah. 

450
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,360
But what happened then? 
You, you didn't. 

451
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:01,280
Well, I think on the 3rd or 4th 
day we would canoe until like 

452
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,160
night time and pull in. 
I guess they had certain 

453
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,360
designations marked. 
And sometimes we pull in like at

454
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,080
midnight, there's bugs. 
You can reach out and grab a 

455
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,120
handful of bugs and then they 
want us to cook dinner. 

456
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,000
And you know, I'm like, man, I 
can't. 

457
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,560
And one of them things of the 
program was to teach you 

458
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,800
immediate, you know, every 
action there's a there's a 

459
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,640
reaction. 
So immediate consequences to 

460
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:29,900
your decision. 
And one of the things I learned 

461
00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:32,220
is that if I don't pay attention
to the lessons, we had these 

462
00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:34,380
bags for our property and you 
had a ceiling, right? 

463
00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:37,180
Or they wouldn't be waterproof. 
Well, I didn't listen and it 

464
00:30:37,180 --> 00:30:38,820
fell in the water and all my 
stuff got wet. 

465
00:30:38,980 --> 00:30:40,940
So I didn't have my own tent. 
I didn't have no toilet paper 

466
00:30:40,940 --> 00:30:42,100
anymore. 
And I didn't like that. 

467
00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:45,180
So basically I was my typical 
stubborn self. 

468
00:30:45,180 --> 00:30:46,980
And I told him, you know what? 
I ain't doing this no more. 

469
00:30:47,140 --> 00:30:49,400
Take Me Home. 
But you were not attacked by 

470
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,160
alligators. 
No, we were attacked by monkeys 

471
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,080
though. 
But monkeys were absolutely 

472
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,040
monkeys were jumping from one 
side to the trees on the other 

473
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,480
side we were at and come trying 
to come over there. 

474
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,960
And they couldn't figure out 
where the monkeys came from. 

475
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,160
But there was a whole bunch of 
them. 

476
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,080
A whole bunch. 
I wanted to get out and get one 

477
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,520
but they said they have 
diseases, right? 

478
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:14,120
The details of of what happened,
but the fact is that three 

479
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:21,000
people were killed. 
And you deny that you were even 

480
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,120
close to the scene or how how do
you there's no longer a 

481
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:27,880
question. 
There's no longer a question of 

482
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,360
my innocence. 
That's the question is out the 

483
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,000
door. 
The question is, what is anyone 

484
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,720
going to do about it now? 
I mean, a perfect example is 

485
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,600
you're here with these guys, 
They show up at your hotel room 

486
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,840
in a car. 
You're going to assume that that

487
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,560
car is, you know, these are your
friends. 

488
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,480
So when Jason shows up to pick 
me up in a car, I'm going to 

489
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,120
assume it's OK. 
You get it. 

490
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,120
You get arrested and you come to
find out he just murdered 

491
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,000
someone from that car. 
You're going to end up on Texas 

492
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,000
death row. 
You're going to end up right 

493
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,400
here because you trusted one of 
these guys to show up and pick 

494
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,840
you up in a in a real car that 
wasn't just stolen, but trusting

495
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,720
in Jason was a bad choice 
anyway. 

496
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,680
Let's let's face it, he was 
well, you know, some sort of a 

497
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,240
bad apple and so so were you. 
I was homeless and starving so 

498
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,840
and where could I get my using 
drugs and stealing and drugs. 

499
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,600
He offered me a place to stay. 
He offered me food, so I chose I

500
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:17,760
chose that which I shouldn't 
have. 

501
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,600
I regret it every, every minute.
Now. 

502
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,560
Cherish every minute. 
Cherish every minute. 

503
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,040
I'll make the most of it because
you know they can. 

504
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,400
They can, they can. 
Do you like me? 

505
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,520
Be in the wrong situation at the
wrong time and there's no 

506
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,000
telling what you end up. 
You might want to get out of 

507
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:41,010
Texas as soon as possible. 
You've got me annoyed with you 

508
00:32:41,010 --> 00:32:43,530
now. 
Yeah. 

509
00:32:43,650 --> 00:32:46,450
That's the truth. 
How mad are you? 

510
00:32:48,010 --> 00:33:01,040
I bet. 
Pretty. 

511
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,000
I feel a little flushed. 
So that's means that I've 

512
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,120
reached the point in my life 
that I'm a little annoyed. 

513
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:16,880
What would you like to do 
Doesn't matter. 

514
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,840
I don't think it's gone to the 
point that I'm actually going to

515
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,720
do anything stupid. 
Just curious to myself why it's.

516
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,640
Why it happened, I don't know 
why it happened. 

517
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,000
I'm I'm actually almost glad it 
did happen because you had a 

518
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:39,040
chance to see something, but I 
don't know why it's the why it 

519
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,600
happened. 
Did you feel I was criticizing 

520
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:43,200
you? 
Yes. 

521
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,760
All I'm asking you to do, if you
find in your heart Mr. Heaven, 

522
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,320
is to give me a second chance of
life. 

523
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,920
How is the person you are now 
different from the person you 

524
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,080
were when you got on death row 
21 years ago? 

525
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,840
More thoughtful. 
Love myself more. 

526
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:26,400
I've I had the privilege of 
witnessing his compassion, his 

527
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,840
thoughtfulness. 
And I'm not the only one. 

528
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:34,320
He's had many other pen pals 
around the world and has had a 

529
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,679
huge impact on their lives as 
well. 

530
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,840
I understand too, that if I do 
get clemency, I know that 

531
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,440
instead of dying on the 19th, I 
may die years later, but it 

532
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,920
won't be in the free ground. 
It'll be in prison. 

533
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,760
And I can accept it because 
there's other avenues and 

534
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,920
prisons that I can take to 
better myself and to better 

535
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:10,250
others along the way. 
And. 

536
00:35:10,930 --> 00:35:14,250
Yeah, someone tells you 
something. 

537
00:35:15,330 --> 00:35:17,010
There's bullshit. 
Right. 

538
00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:21,610
They're telling you something so
they can set you up for 

539
00:35:22,570 --> 00:35:26,490
something they want you to do 
with them so they can move the 

540
00:35:27,210 --> 00:35:30,120
situation around. 
Towards you going to help. 

541
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,200
Them I I guess. 
I guess people do that. 

542
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:35,960
I don't know. 
I don't. 

543
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,840
That's why I'm locked up. 45 
years this time. 

544
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,280
Yeah, it's for over. 
Over some bullshit. 

545
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,840
Two years last time. 
It's a long time. 

546
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,480
And you know why I've been 
locked up for these years. 

547
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,920
Why is that? 
Because I had no help. 

548
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,560
Yeah. 
I I, I, I think you're 100% 

549
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,480
right. 
My mother went to prison, right?

550
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:09,080
And ain't nobody to back me up. 
It's a long hard Rd. represents.

551
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,320
They want to back me up and tell
me I love you, Charlie, right? 

552
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,520
There was some kind of game they
want me to run and tell you 

553
00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:19,640
something so they can send you 
up for something. 

554
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,920
Mm hmm. 
Mm hmm. 

555
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,360
And those guys that you're 
talking to? 

556
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,760
OK, those guys that you're 
talking, let's call Andrew. 

557
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,280
Our telephone number will be 
monitored and recorded. 

558
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,520
Did you ever read how many gears
they cut off? 

559
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:44,920
Who's that? 
I got a picture of you. 

560
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:47,520
I know I've sent you quite a 
few. 

561
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,360
I want to get one phone call. 
And I got three people. 

562
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,960
I got a call. 
All righty. 

563
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:13,320
I'm just telling you, man, only 
trust my knee. 

564
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:20,320
OK, That's cute. 
That's that's such good advice. 

565
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:27,760
Some don't tell anyone anything.
Make it interpret and make it 

566
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,560
something to tell. 
That's good advice. 

567
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:37,320
If you say I've seen it, show me
in the car. 

568
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,760
They'll write and tell you that 
I stole the car, right? 

569
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,200
Yeah. 
And they're two cents to make it

570
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,480
to the something they want. 
I got a. 

571
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,160
Roll so I'll call you when I. 
Can. 

572
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,080
All right, my brother. 
Thank you for calling man. 

573
00:37:53,080 --> 00:38:04,680
You take care of yourself. 
The clowning was relaxation for 

574
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,440
me. 
I enjoyed entertaining kids like

575
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,840
some people are, you know, they 
they unwind in different ways. 

576
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,440
Either we're going out drinking 
or that I could put on clown 

577
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,360
makeup and I was relaxed and I 
enjoyed doing it. 

578
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,760
I was twice. 
It was only twice a month that I

579
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:22,200
did. 
Yeah. 

580
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,000
This was not using for a lure to
to draw kids to you as as no we 

581
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:41,000
would visit different hospitals.
And entertain the children 

582
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,000
there. 
And we didn't entertain them 

583
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,360
with handcuffs or anything like 
that. 

584
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,080
All we used was balloon animals 
and small toys and stuff like 

585
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,760
that. 
But we also did parades and in 

586
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,880
the summertime, like a 4th of 
July, I used to be in four 

587
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,800
parades in one day. 
I've always told people when 

588
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,680
when I got into clown makeup, I 
regressed in the childhood, it 

589
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,480
was fun being a clown because 
you could, you could be yourself

590
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,520
or just let yourself go and act 
a fool. 

591
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:08,680
You could be slapstick and funny
and have a good a good time. 

592
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,720
That's why I always enjoyed 
clowning. 

593
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:17,040
Clowning has taken a bad name I 
because of what they've used in 

594
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:32,740
my. 
I'm a patient person, got a good

595
00:39:32,740 --> 00:39:35,140
listening ear and try to help 
people. 

596
00:39:36,060 --> 00:39:39,980
You're patient with a good ear, 
and you try to help people, yes.

597
00:39:40,180 --> 00:39:42,140
When you're not trying to murder
them, yes. 

598
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,920
When Calendar's reign of terror 
ended, three were dead, 

599
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,680
including his 14 year old son. 
You murdered your own son. 

600
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,160
Yes, I did. 
Why did you do that? 

601
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,360
He was a sacrifice. 
I was to murder 3 million 

602
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,800
people, the planet Earth. 
And he was a sacrifice to see if

603
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,720
I could murder one of my own. 
At the end of murdering all the 

604
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,800
people on earth, I was going to 
murder my own family and then 

605
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,040
take my own life and become God.
What do you think of the death 

606
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,360
penalty? 
I'm opposed to it. 

607
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:26,120
The state has no right to take 
your life, but you can murder 

608
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,960
other people. 
I don't think anyone has the 

609
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,640
right to take a life except you.
When I'm under hallucination, I 

610
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,120
do these voices from God. 
These hallucinations do you 

611
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,080
still experience? 
Them. 

612
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,480
Yes, I do often. 
Often. 

613
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,240
Do you ever feel violent? 
Yes, I do. 

614
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,680
What do you feel like doing? 
Killing people? 

615
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,320
You still feel like killing 
people? 

616
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,160
Yes. 
Describe the feeling that you 

617
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,360
get when you feel like killing. 
People Well, last March 11th, I 

618
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,960
was hallucinating and I took a 
razor blade and I cut a man's 

619
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,080
throat. 
Here in the hospital. 

620
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,280
Here in the hospital. 
Do you think you'd murder me, 

621
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:04,360
Joe? 
Yes. 

622
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,760
That's gruesome, Joe. 
That's horrible. 

623
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,640
Yes, it is. 
And you don't blame me if I say 

624
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,280
I hope you never get out of this
place. 

625
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:23,550
I hope I never do either. 
Altered. 

626
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:25,110
Well, they weren't really 
spontaneous. 

627
00:41:25,110 --> 00:41:29,470
I altered how I approached these
young ladies from the point of 

628
00:41:29,470 --> 00:41:36,390
capture, from the first time. 
What I had wanted to do was to 

629
00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:40,390
secure them and to suffocate 
them with plastic bags over 

630
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:54,720
their heads. 
I've had some completely 

631
00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:58,880
unrealistic perspective that 
that was quick, that they would 

632
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,720
lose consciousness rapidly. 
But the first young lady that 

633
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:13,200
was in the back seat, that was 
Mary Ann Pesch, I finally 

634
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,960
secured her. 
She argued a lot. 

635
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,800
She was dialoguing, trying to 
change up control of the 

636
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,800
situation. 
She had already decided I was in

637
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,720
control. 
I was trying to gain control. 

638
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:25,480
I was convinced she was in 
control of it. 

639
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,640
So for about 20 minutes, we were
arguing back and forth over what

640
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,600
was going to happen and I was 
trying to keep it away from what

641
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:37,240
was intended, which was murder. 
And I decided at that time I 

642
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:39,520
wasn't going to tell anyone I 
was going to rape them. 

643
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,440
I didn't say that at the time, 
but I left that wide open is the

644
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:46,120
avenue that I was just going to 
be a sexual release. 

645
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:49,160
And that got them very 
distressed. 

646
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,200
And it was obvious to me that if
I was going to pursue what I was

647
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,640
doing, that distress had to 
stop. 

648
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:03,160
So I went into a unfortunately 
more effective behavior of 

649
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,080
letting them help me. 
I let more of my personality 

650
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:13,840
come out and I was suicidal, 
very disturbed, grasping out of 

651
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,880
someone. 
I had abducted them and I wasn't

652
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,200
going to let them out of the car
because I was tired of people 

653
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,680
walking away from me. 
So some of that was very true. 

654
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:28,160
But I manipulated that to allow 
them to help me to the point of 

655
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:33,480
resolving their behavior until 
we got to a place where they 

656
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,720
could be killed. 
And that has, I have the biggest

657
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:40,960
problem with that on my guilt 
basis, because obviously that 

658
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,800
entailed unusual trust between 
the the captor of the 

659
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,080
perpetrator and the victim of 
the crime. 

660
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,200
At one point, in fact, on the 
4th victim of the crime, Miss 

661
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:59,680
Shaw, she actually got back into
the trunk under her own power. 

662
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,360
I had a cast on my left arm. 
It was broken. 

663
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,760
And I walked her back to the 
trunk of the car where I told 

664
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,080
her I was going to keep her 
undercover so that I could get 

665
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,960
her to my home or we could talk.
But I didn't want neighbors 

666
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,480
seeing her coming to the house 
or leaving the house. 

667
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,600
And it I made that sound 
realistic to her so she would 

668
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,520
didn't want to get in the trunk 
but was willing to. 

669
00:44:34,790 --> 00:44:41,150
In 9th grade in biology class, 
we had the usual dissection of 

670
00:44:41,350 --> 00:44:46,990
fetal pigs. 
And I took, I took the remains 

671
00:44:46,990 --> 00:44:51,360
of that home and kept the 
skeleton of it. 

672
00:45:02,330 --> 00:45:04,490
And I just started branching 
out. 

673
00:45:05,770 --> 00:45:10,330
Dogs, cats. 
I suppose it could have turned 

674
00:45:10,330 --> 00:45:14,050
into a, a normal hobby like 
taxidermy. 

675
00:45:15,450 --> 00:45:20,290
And all I know is that I wanted 
to, to see what the insides of 

676
00:45:20,290 --> 00:45:26,800
these animals looked like. 
I I there may have been some 

677
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,160
violence involved, some 
underlying subconscious feelings

678
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,520
of violence. 
I just it was a it was a 

679
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,960
compulsion became a compulsion. 
What would you do with the with 

680
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,240
the dead animals? 
Jeff take them back in the 

681
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:47,040
woods, skin them sometimes slit 
them, slit them all the way 

682
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,120
open. 
Look at the organs, feel them. 

683
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,360
Can you describe what you were 
thinking is? 

684
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:58,440
I was, It was just mystifying to
me how how the insides of the 

685
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:03,560
animal looked. 
There was a sort of general 

686
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,800
excitement for me. 
I don't know why it was. 

687
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:12,840
It was exciting to see and I 
acted on my fantasies and that's

688
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:16,320
where everything went wrong. 
Did you ever tell yourself? 

689
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,440
I have to stop this. 
I must stop doing this. 

690
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,240
Yes. 
When it was going on. 

691
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:30,400
After, after the second time, it
seemed like the compulsion to do

692
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,040
it was too strong. 
And I, I didn't even try to stop

693
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,720
it after that. 
But after, before the second 

694
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,400
time, things had been building 
up gradually, going to 

695
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,640
bookstores, going to the bars, 
the gay bars, bath clubs. 

696
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:52,400
When that did, when that wasn't 
enough, buying sleeping pills 

697
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,320
and and using it on various guys
in the bath clubs, it just 

698
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,960
escalated slowly but surely. 
And after the second time, which

699
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:07,520
was not planned, it was out of 
control. 

700
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,480
Felt like it was out of control.
Were you relieved to be 

701
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:16,760
arrested? 
Part of me, part of me was and 

702
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,120
part of me wasn't. 
Explain. 

703
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,000
I don't know. 
It's, it's like, I don't believe

704
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,000
I have a split personality. 
But you, you know, the feeling 

705
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,920
where, oh, you're, you're sort 
of glad about something, but on 

706
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,000
the other hand, you're not. 
That's, that's how it was. 

707
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,880
I was, it was a relief not to 
have to keep such a gigantic 

708
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,040
secret that I had kept for so 
many years. 

709
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:49,360
And once I saw that I had no 
choice but to face it, I decided

710
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,600
to face it head on and make a 
full confession. 

711
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,640
So I am glad that the secrets 
are are gone. 

712
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:07,360
I I just get angry with other 
people who, who think that they 

713
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:15,520
have a right to, to somehow try 
to blame my parents for what 

714
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,160
happened. 
That's not right at all. 

715
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,560
No one has the right to do that 
because they're totally 

716
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,160
innocent. 
They had no knowledge of it. 

717
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:47,320
And that angers me. 
Ted, it is about 2:30 in the 

718
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,120
afternoon. 
You are scheduled to be executed

719
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,880
tomorrow morning at 7:00 if you 
don't receive another stay. 

720
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:59,040
What is going through your mind?
What thoughts have you had in 

721
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,840
these last few days? 
Well, I won't kid you to say 

722
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:08,840
that it's something that I feel 
that I am in control of or 

723
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,320
something that I've come to 
terms with because I haven't. 

724
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:17,000
It's a moment by moment thing. 
Sometimes I feel very tranquil 

725
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,000
and other times I don't feel 
tranquil at all. 

726
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,920
What's going through my mind 
right now is to use the minutes 

727
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:31,360
and hours that I have left as 
fruitfully as possible and see 

728
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,440
what happens. 
It helps to to live in the 

729
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,720
moment, in the in the essence 
that we use it productively. 

730
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,480
So I'm right now, I'm feeling 
calm and in large part because 

731
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,200
I'm here with you. 
For the record, you are guilty 

732
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:54,240
of killing many women and girls.
Yes, yes, that's true. 

733
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,480
Ted, how did it happen? 
Take me back. 

734
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:02,120
What are the antecedents of the 
behavior that we've seen? 

735
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,840
So much grief, so much sorrow, 
so much pain for so many people.

736
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,160
Where did it start? 
How did this moment come about? 

737
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,720
That's the question of the hour 
and and when. 

738
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:23,200
One that not only people much 
more intelligent than I have 

739
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,640
been working on for for years, 
but one that I've been working 

740
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,240
on for years and trying to 
understand it. 

741
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,000
Is there enough time to explain 
it all? 

742
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,840
I don't know. 
I think I understand it though. 

743
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:42,480
Understand what happened to me 
to the extent that I, I, I can 

744
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:47,520
see how certain feelings and 
ideas developed in me to the 

745
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,720
point where I began to act out 
on them certain very violent and

746
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:54,480
very destructive feeling. 
Let's go back then to those 

747
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,360
roots. 
First of all, you, as I 

748
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,000
understand it, were raised in 
what you consider to have been a

749
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,160
healthy home. 
You are not physically abused. 

750
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,200
You are not sexually abused. 
You are not emotionally abused. 

751
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,440
No, no way. 
I, and that's part of the 

752
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:14,720
tragedy of this whole situation 
is because I grew up in a 

753
00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:18,640
wonderful home with two 
dedicated and loving parents, 

754
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:24,880
one of five brothers and 
sisters, a home where we as our 

755
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,520
as children with a focus of of 
my parents lives where we 

756
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:32,320
regularly attended church. 2 
Christian parents who did not 

757
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,320
drink, they did not smoke. 
There was no gambling, there was

758
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,520
no physical abuse or fighting in
the home. 

759
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,400
I'm not saying this was Leave at
the Beaver. 

760
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,320
It wasn't a perfect no, no, no, 
I don't know that such a home 

761
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,680
exists. 
But it was a fine, solid 

762
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:52,040
Christian home and nobody, I 
hope no one will try to take the

763
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:57,320
easy way out and to try to blame
or otherwise accuse my, my 

764
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,680
family of contributing to this. 
Because I know, and I'm trying 

765
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,320
to tell you as honestly as I 
know how, what happened. 

766
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,480
And I think this is a message 
I'm going to get across. 

767
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:12,240
But as a young, a young boy, and
I mean the boy of 12/13 

768
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:21,480
certainly that I encountered 
outside the home again in the 

769
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,880
local grocery store, the local 
drugstore, the softcore 

770
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,160
pornography, what people call 
softcore. 

771
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,640
But as I think I I explained to 
you last night, Doctor Dobson, 

772
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,760
an anecdote. 
As young boys do, we explored 

773
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:41,320
the the back roads and sideways 
and byways of our neighborhood. 

774
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:46,440
And often times people would 
dump the garbage and whatever 

775
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:47,520
they're cleaning out of their 
house. 

776
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,880
And from time to time we'd come 
across so pornographic books of 

777
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,160
a harder nature than more 
graphic, you might say a more 

778
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,440
explicit nature than we would 
encounter, let's say, in your 

779
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,520
local grocery store. 
And this also included such 

780
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:05,120
things as, let's say, detective 
magazines and those that involve

781
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:06,720
violence. 
Yes, yes. 

782
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:10,480
And I, and this is something I 
think I want to emphasize is 

783
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:17,240
the, the, the, the most damaging
kinds of pornography. 

784
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:21,880
And my, again, I'm talking from 
personal experience, hard, real 

785
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,000
personal experience. 
The most damaging kinds of 

786
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,200
pornography are those that 
involve violence and sexual 

787
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,680
violence. 
Because the wedding of those two

788
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,600
forces as as I am know only too 
well brings about behaviour that

789
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:39,000
is just, is just too terrible to
describe. 

790
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,040
Now walk me through that. 
What was going on in your mind 

791
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,560
at that time? 
OK, before we go any further, I 

792
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:49,280
think, you know, it's important 
to me and the people, the people

793
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:53,360
believe what I'm saying, tell 
you that, that I'm not blaming 

794
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:58,720
pornography and not saying that 
it caused me to go out and do 

795
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,440
certain things. 
And I take full responsibility 

796
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,560
for whatever I've done and all 
the things that I've done. 

797
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:07,760
That's not the question here. 
The question and, and, and the 

798
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,000
issue is how this kind of 
literature contributed and 

799
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,680
helped mold and and shape the 
kinds of violent behaviour 

800
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,080
fueled your falsies in the 
beginning. 

801
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,800
It fuels this kind of thought 
process. 

802
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:26,960
Then at a certain time, it's 
instrumental in what would say 

803
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,800
crystallizing and making making 
into something which is almost 

804
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,600
like a separate entity inside 
and that at that point you're at

805
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,600
the verge or I was at the verge 
of acting out on this on this 

806
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,720
kind of these kinds of things. 
I really want to understand that

807
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,600
you had gone about as far as you
could go in your own fantasy 

808
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:52,280
life with printed material and 
you made or printed in video or 

809
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,800
film or film magazines. 
What happened? 

810
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,800
And, and then there was the urge
to take that little step or big 

811
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:05,960
step over to a physical event. 
And it happens it it happened in

812
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,080
stages, gradually. 
It doesn't necessarily, not to 

813
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:13,440
me at least, happen overnight. 
My experience with, I'd say 

814
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,200
pornography generally, but with 
pornography that deals on a 

815
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:23,800
violent level with the 
sexuality, is that once you 

816
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,000
become addicted to it, and I 
look at this as a kind of 

817
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,160
addiction, like other kinds of 
addiction of addiction you keep,

818
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,360
I would keep looking for more 
potent, more explicit, more 

819
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,960
gracious kinds of material. 
Like an addiction, you keep 

820
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,320
craving something which is 
harder, harder, something which 

821
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:48,000
which gives you a greater sense 
of of of excitement until you 

822
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,600
reach the point where the 
pornography only goes so far. 

823
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:57,120
You reach that jumping off point
where you begin to wonder if if 

824
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,920
maybe actually doing it will 
give you that which is beyond 

825
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:03,680
just reading about it or looking
at it. 

826
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,040
How long did you stay at that 
point before you actually 

827
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,080
assaulted someone? 
Well, yeah. 

828
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:16,560
You see, that is a very delicate
point in my own development. 

829
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:17,960
And we're talking about 
something. 

830
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,600
We're talking about having 
reached the point or a Gray area

831
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:23,160
that surrounded that point over 
the course. 

832
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,120
You don't remember years, how 
long? 

833
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,200
Well, I would say, I would say a
couple years. 

834
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,200
And what was I was dealing with?
There were very strong 

835
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:36,920
inhibitions against criminal 
behavior or violent behavior 

836
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,360
that had been conditioned into 
me, bred into me in my 

837
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,720
environment, in my neighborhood,
in my church, in my school, 

838
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,480
things which said, no, this is 
wrong. 

839
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,880
I mean, just even to think of it
as wrong, but it certainly to do

840
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:52,840
it is wrong. 
And you're on I'm on that edge. 

841
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,120
And these the last, the, the, 
you might say, the last vestiges

842
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:02,400
of restraint, the barriers to 
actually doing something, were 

843
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:10,040
being tested constantly, and 
assault assailed through the 

844
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:16,160
kind of fantasy life that was 
fueled largely by pornography. 

845
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,960
Do you remember what pushed you 
over that edge? 

846
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,160
Do you remember the decision to 
go for it? 

847
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:27,200
Do you remember where you 
decided to throw caution to the 

848
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:35,480
wind again? 
When you say pushed, I don't. 

849
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,880
I know what you're saying. 
I don't want to infer again, I 

850
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,720
understand that that I was that 
I was some helpless kind of a 

851
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:46,360
victim. 
And yet we're talking about an 

852
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:50,200
influence which that is the 
influence of violent types of 

853
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,120
media and violent pornography, 
which hadn't was an 

854
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:58,280
indispensable link in the chain 
of behaviour, the chain of 

855
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,720
events that led to the behaviors
to the, to the assaults, to the 

856
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,440
murders and what and what have 
you. 

857
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:16,680
It's a it's a very difficult 
thing to describe the, the 

858
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:24,160
sensation of the the of, of 
reaching that point where you 

859
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:31,400
where I knew that it, it was 
like something had say snapped 

860
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,800
that I knew that, that I 
couldn't control it anymore, 

861
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,840
that these barriers that that I 
had, that had been, I'd learned 

862
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,200
as a child that had been 
instilled in me were not enough 

863
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,760
to hold me back with respect to 
seeking out and and harming 

864
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,160
somebody. 
Would it be accurate to call out

865
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:54,120
a, a, a frenzy, a sexual frenzy?
Well, yes, that's one way to 

866
00:58:54,120 --> 00:59:02,320
describe it. 
A compulsion a a building up of 

867
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:09,400
of this destructive energy 
Again, I another factor here the

868
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,520
way I haven't mentioned is the 
use of alcohol. 

869
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:16,800
But I think that what alcohol 
did in conjunction with, let's 

870
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,640
say, my exposure to pornography 
was alcohol reduced my 

871
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:26,800
inhibitions. 
At the same time, the, the, the 

872
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:31,520
fantasy life that was fuelled by
pornography eroded them further.

873
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,960
In the early days, you were 
nearly always about half drunk 

874
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:37,480
when you did these things. 
Is that right? 

875
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,120
Yes. 
Yes. 

876
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,240
Was that always true? 
Yeah. 

877
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,720
I I would say that that was 
generally the case. 

878
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:48,240
Almost. 
What? 

879
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,920
What? 
All right, if I can understand 

880
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,240
it now, there is this battle 
going on within. 

881
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,480
There are the conventions that 
you've been taught. 

882
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:57,920
There's the right and wrong that
you learned as a child. 

883
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:03,920
And then there is this this 
unbridled passion fuelled by 

884
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,920
your plunge into hardcore 
violent pornography. 

885
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,240
And those things are at war with
each other. 

886
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:15,600
And then with the alcohol 
diminishing the the inhibitions,

887
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:17,960
you let go. 
Well. 

888
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:24,840
Yes, and to you can summarize it
that way and it's accurate 

889
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,600
certainly. 
And it, it just occurred to me 

890
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:33,840
that some people would, would 
say that, well, I, I've seen 

891
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:35,520
that stuff and it doesn't do 
anything to me. 

892
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:41,280
And I can understand that. 
I virtually everyone can be 

893
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:45,000
exposed to so-called pornography
and while they're aroused to it 

894
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,200
to 1° or another and not go out 
and do anything wrong. 

895
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:49,840
Addictions are like that. 
They affect some people more 

896
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,400
than they affect others. 
But there is a percentage of 

897
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,160
people affected by hardcore 
pornography in a very violent 

898
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:57,520
way. 
And you're obviously one of 

899
01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,640
them. 
That was a major component and I

900
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,400
don't know why I was vulnerable 
to it. 

901
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:10,360
All I know is that that it had 
an impact on me that was just so

902
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,280
central to the development of 
the violent behaviour that I 

903
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,000
engaged in. 
Ted, after you committed your 

904
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:23,080
first murder, what was the 
emotional effect on you? 

905
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,160
What happened in the days after 
that? 

906
01:01:33,470 --> 01:01:39,870
Well, again, this please 
understand that even all these 

907
01:01:39,870 --> 01:01:43,350
years later, it's very difficult
to talk about it and, and, and 

908
01:01:43,430 --> 01:01:45,840
relieving it through talking 
about it. 

909
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:49,600
It it's difficult to say the 
least, but I want you to 

910
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:55,640
understand what happened. 
It was like coming out of some 

911
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,560
kind of horrible trance or, or 
dream. 

912
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,360
I can only liken it to after, 
you know, I, I don't want to 

913
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:10,360
over dramatize it, but to have 
been possessed by something so 

914
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,600
awful and so alien. 
And then the next morning, wake 

915
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,800
up from it, remember what 
happened and realize that 

916
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:20,520
basically, I mean, in the eyes 
of the law, certainly in the 

917
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:25,480
eyes of God, you're responsible 
to, to wake up in the morning 

918
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:31,240
and, and realize what I had done
and with a clear mind and all my

919
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:36,920
essential moral and ethical 
feelings intact at that moment, 

920
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:46,920
absolutely horrified that I was 
capable of doing something like 

921
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:48,880
that. 
You really hadn't known that 

922
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:55,200
before. 
There is just absolutely no way 

923
01:02:55,200 --> 01:03:05,560
to describe first the brutal 
urge to do that kind of thing. 

924
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:10,440
And then what happens is once it
it has been more or less 

925
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:16,320
satisfied and recede, you might 
say, or spent that that sense, 

926
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,480
that kind of energy level 
recedes. 

927
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,360
And basically I became my myself
again. 

928
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:24,600
And I want people to understand 
this too. 

929
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,560
And I'm not saying this 
gratuitously because it's 

930
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:30,360
important that people understand
this, that basically I was a 

931
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:36,960
normal person. 
I wasn't some guy hanging out at

932
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:41,080
bars or a bum or I wasn't a 
pervert in the sense that, you 

933
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,240
know, people look at somebody 
and say, I know there's 

934
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:44,640
something wrong with him and 
just tell. 

935
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,640
I mean, I, I was essentially a 
normal person. 

936
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,760
I had good friends. 
I, I, I live a normal life 

937
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:58,360
except for this one small but 
very potent and very destructive

938
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,400
segment of it that I kept very 
secret and very close to myself 

939
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,160
and didn't let anybody know 
about it. 

940
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,720
And part of the shock and horror
from my dear friends and family 

941
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:10,360
when, years ago, when I was 
first arrested, was that they 

942
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,160
just, there was no clue. 
They looked at me and they 

943
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,760
looked at the, you know, the, 
the all American boy. 

944
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,880
And I'm, I mean, that wasn't 
perfect, but it was just, I want

945
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:24,800
to be quite candid with you. 
I was, I was OK, OK, I was. 

946
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:31,560
And the basic humanity and and 
basic spirit that God gave me 

947
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,840
was intact. 
But unfortunately it became 

948
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,440
overwhelmed at times. 
I think people need to recognize

949
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:44,920
that it's not some kind of those
of us who are, who have been so 

950
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,880
much influenced by violence in 
the media, in particular 

951
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:54,960
pornographic violence are not 
some kinds of inherent monsters.

952
01:04:55,200 --> 01:05:00,800
We are your sons and we are your
husbands and we grew up in 

953
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,760
regular families and pornography
can reach out and snatch a kid 

954
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,880
out of any house today. 
He snatched me out of my He 

955
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:12,400
snatched me out of my home 20-30
years ago. 

956
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:21,280
And as diligent as my parents 
were, and they were diligent in 

957
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:26,640
protecting their children and as
good a Christian home as we had 

958
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:28,440
and we had a wonderful Christian
home. 

959
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,720
There is no protection against 
the kind that the kinds of 

960
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,160
influences that are loose in the
society that that that 

961
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:43,800
tolerates. 
You feel this really deeply, 

962
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:49,000
don't you, Ted? 
Outside these walls right now, 

963
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:53,480
there are several 100 reporters 
that wanted to talk to you. 

964
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:58,640
And you asked me to come here 
from California because you had 

965
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:03,240
something you wanted to say. 
This hour that we have together 

966
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:09,240
is not just an interview with a 
man who's scheduled to die 

967
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:13,480
tomorrow morning. 
I'm here and you're here because

968
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:16,200
of this message that you're 
talking about right here. 

969
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:21,320
You really feel that hardcore 
pornography and the doorway to 

970
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,080
it. 
Softcore pornography is doing 

971
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:30,240
untold damage to other people 
and causing other women to be 

972
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,320
abused and killed the way you 
did ours. 

973
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:37,880
Listen, I'm no social scientist 
and I haven't done a survey. 

974
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:41,000
I mean, I, I don't pretend that 
I know what John Q Citizen 

975
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:45,560
thinks about this, but I've 
lived in prison for a long time 

976
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:51,240
now and I've met a lot of men 
who are motivated to commit 

977
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:56,560
violence just like me. 
And without exception, every one

978
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,880
of them was deeply involved in 
pornography without question, 

979
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,760
without exception, deeply 
influenced and consumed by an 

980
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,880
addiction to pornography. 
There's no question about it. 

981
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:13,240
The FB is own study on serial 
homicide shows that the most 

982
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:18,120
common interest among serial 
killers is pornography. 

983
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:21,000
That's true and it's and it's 
real. 

984
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:24,960
It's true, Ted. 
What would your life have been 

985
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:33,920
like without that influence? 
You can only speculate. 

986
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:39,240
Yeah, well, I I know it would 
have been far better, not just 

987
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:44,320
for me and, and it's excuse me 
for being so self-centered here.

988
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,960
It would have been a lot better 
for me and lots of other people.

989
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:49,080
I know that. 
Lots of other innocent people, 

990
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,280
victims and families. 
It would have been a lot better.

991
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:56,040
There's no question but that it 
would have been a, a, a, a 

992
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:00,400
fuller life. 
It's certainly a life that would

993
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,760
not have involved. 
I'm absolutely certain would not

994
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:09,200
have involved this kind of 
violence that I have been, that 

995
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:15,200
I have committed. 
I'm sure, Ted, if you know, if I

996
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:18,240
were able to ask you the 
questions that are being asked 

997
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:22,240
out there, one of the most 
important as you come down to 

998
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:27,240
perhaps your final hours, are 
you thinking about all those 

999
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:31,640
victims out there in their 
families who are so wounded you 

1000
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,880
know, years later their lives 
have not returned to normal, 

1001
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:36,279
They will never return to 
normal? 

1002
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,200
Are you carrying that load that 
way? 

1003
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:47,479
Is the remorse there? 
Again, I, I know that people 

1004
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:49,720
will accuse me of being 
self-serving, but we're beyond 

1005
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:51,520
that now. 
I mean, I'm just telling you how

1006
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:56,120
I feel. 
But through God's help, I have 

1007
01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:01,680
been able to come to the point 
where I've much too late. 

1008
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:05,479
But better late than never Feel 
the hurt and the pain that I am 

1009
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:07,920
responsible for. 
Yes, absolutely. 

1010
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:11,720
In the past few days, myself and
a number of investigators have 

1011
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:17,600
been talking about unsolved 
cases, murders that I was 

1012
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,800
involved in. 
And it's hard to, it's hard to 

1013
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,600
talk about all these years later
because it revives in me all 

1014
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:27,000
those terrible feelings and 
those thoughts that I have 

1015
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:35,880
steadfastly and, and, and, and 
diligently dealt with and I 

1016
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:37,920
think successfully with the love
of God. 

1017
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,880
And yet it's reopened that and I
felt the pain and I felt the 

1018
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:49,760
horror again of all that. 
And I can only hope that those 

1019
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:56,640
who I've harmed, those who I've 
caused so much grief, even if 

1020
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:05,120
they don't believe my expression
of sorrow and remorse, will 

1021
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:11,360
believe what I'm saying now. 
That there is loose in their 

1022
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:19,240
towns and their communities. 
People like me today, whose 

1023
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:26,320
dangerous impulses are being 
fueled day in and day out by 

1024
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:29,400
violence in the media in its 
various forms, particularly 

1025
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,760
sexualized violence. 
And what scares me. 

1026
01:10:34,360 --> 01:10:36,640
And let's come into the present 
now because what I'm talking 

1027
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:40,000
about happened 3020, thirty 
years ago. 

1028
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:44,280
That is in my formative stages. 
And what scares and appalls me, 

1029
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:49,400
Doctor Dobson, is when I see 
what's on cable TV, some of the 

1030
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:53,680
movies, I mean, some of the 
violence in the movies that come

1031
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:58,160
into homes today with stuff that
they that they wouldn't show in 

1032
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,680
an X-rated adult theatres 30 
years ago. 

1033
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:04,920
This stuff, the slasher movies 
that you're talking about, that 

1034
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,520
stuff is, I'm telling you from 
personal experience the most. 

1035
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:15,760
That is graphic violence on 
screen, particularly as it gets 

1036
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,880
into the home to children who 
may be unattended or or unaware 

1037
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:24,160
that they may be a Ted Bundy who
has that that vulnerability to 

1038
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:27,280
that, that predisposition to be 
influenced by that kind of 

1039
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:31,240
behavior, by that kind of of 
movie, that kind of violence. 

1040
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:36,080
There are kids sitting out there
switching the TV dial around and

1041
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,480
come upon these movies late at 
night or I don't know when 

1042
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:40,760
they're on, but they're on and 
any kid can watch them. 

1043
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:44,960
It's scary when I think what 
would have happened to me if I 

1044
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:49,120
had seen it was scary enough. 
I mean, that I just ran into 

1045
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,800
stuff outside the home. 
But to to know that children are

1046
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:56,160
watching that kind of thing 
today or can pick up their phone

1047
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,080
and dial away for it or send 
away for it. 

1048
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:05,840
Can you help me understand this 
desensitization process that 

1049
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,160
took place? 
What was going on in your mind? 

1050
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:14,720
Well, by desensitization, I 
describe it in specific terms, 

1051
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:22,240
is that each time I'd harm 
someone, each time I'd kill 

1052
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:26,480
someone, there'd be an enormous 
amount, especially at first, 

1053
01:12:27,440 --> 01:12:30,920
enormous amount of of of horror,
guilt, remorse afterwards. 

1054
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:34,640
But then that impulse to do it 
again would come back even 

1055
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:36,640
stronger. 
Now, believe me, I didn't. 

1056
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,880
The unique thing about how this 
worked, Doctor Dobson, is that I

1057
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:46,280
still felt in my regular life 
the full range of, of guilt and,

1058
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:49,560
and remorse about other things, 
regret. 

1059
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:52,040
And you had this 
compartmentalized, this 

1060
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:58,360
compartmentalized, very well 
focused, very sharply focused 

1061
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:00,320
area where I, it was like a 
black hole. 

1062
01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:02,640
It was like a, you know, like a 
crack. 

1063
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:05,240
And everything that fell into 
that crack just disappeared. 

1064
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:12,520
Yeah, it does. 
One of the the final murders 

1065
01:13:12,520 --> 01:13:15,760
that you committed, of course, 
was apparently little Kimberly 

1066
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:21,280
Leach, 12 years of age. 
I think the the public outcry is

1067
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:24,640
greater there because an 
innocent child was taken from a 

1068
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,920
from a playground. 
What did you feel after that? 

1069
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:32,040
What was there? 
Were there the normal emotions? 

1070
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:34,280
Three days later? 
Where were you, Ted? 

1071
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:42,920
I, I can't really talk about 
that right now. 

1072
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:48,360
That's who we are. 
That's too painful. 

1073
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:56,160
I would like to, I'd like to be 
able to convey to you what that,

1074
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:02,680
that that experience is like, 
but I can't, I won't be able to 

1075
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:12,400
talk about that. 
I can't begin to understand. 

1076
01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:20,160
Well, I can try, but I'm, I'm 
aware that I can't begin to 

1077
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:26,320
understand the pain that the 
parents of these of these 

1078
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:30,280
children that I have and these 
young women that I have harmed 

1079
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:35,680
feel. 
And I can't restore really much 

1080
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:39,400
to them, if anything. 
And I will pretend to. 

1081
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:41,400
And I don't even expect them to 
forgive me. 

1082
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:44,360
And I'm not asking for it. 
That that kind of forgiveness is

1083
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:46,160
of God. 
And if they have it, they 

1084
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,320
haven't, they don't. 
Well, maybe they'll find it 

1085
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,800
someday. 
Do you deserve the punishment 

1086
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:58,400
the state is inflicted upon you?
That's a very good question and 

1087
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,440
I'll answer very, very honestly.
I don't want to die. 

1088
01:15:01,480 --> 01:15:03,480
I'm not going to kid you. 
I'll kid you not. 

1089
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:12,240
I deserve certainly the the most
extreme punishment society has 

1090
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:17,360
and I deserve, I think society 
deserves to be protected from me

1091
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:19,280
and from others like me, that's 
for sure. 

1092
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:26,160
I think what I what I hope will 
come of our discussion is I 

1093
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:30,960
think society deserves to be 
protected from itself because 

1094
01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:35,000
because of we as as we've been 
talking, there are there are 

1095
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,240
forces that loosen in in this 
country, particularly again, 

1096
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:47,000
this kind of violent pornography
where on the one hand, well 

1097
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:51,880
meaning, decent people will 
condemn behavior of a Ted Bundy 

1098
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:56,520
while they're walking past a a 
magazine rack full of the very 

1099
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:00,160
kinds of things that send young 
kids down the road to be Ted 

1100
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:01,720
Bundys. 
That's the irony. 

1101
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:05,880
We're talking here not just 
about more, we're talking I'm. 

1102
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,960
What I'm talking about is going 
beyond retribution, which is 

1103
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:15,000
what people want with me. 
Going beyond retribution and 

1104
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:18,680
punishment because there is no 
way in the world that killing me

1105
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:23,000
is going to restore those 
beautiful children to their 

1106
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:27,520
parents and, and, and correct 
and, and, and, and soothe the 

1107
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:30,240
pain. 
But I'll tell you, there are 

1108
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:32,840
lots of other kids playing in 
the streets around this country 

1109
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:37,280
today who are going to be dead 
tomorrow and the next day and 

1110
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:41,040
the next day and next month 
because other young people are 

1111
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:43,720
reading the kinds of things and 
seeing the kinds of things that 

1112
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:45,200
are available in the media 
today. 

1113
01:16:45,560 --> 01:16:48,480
Ted, as you would imagine, 
there's tremendous cynicism 

1114
01:16:48,480 --> 01:16:51,400
about you on the outside. 
And I suppose for good reason. 

1115
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:55,240
I'm not sure that there's 
anything that you could say that

1116
01:16:55,240 --> 01:16:59,400
people would would believe. 
Some people would believe and 

1117
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:04,560
and yet you told me last night, 
and I have heard this through 

1118
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:09,920
our mutual friend John Tanner, 
that you have accepted the 

1119
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:14,480
forgiveness of Jesus Christ and 
are a follower and a believer in

1120
01:17:14,480 --> 01:17:16,720
him. 
Do you draw strength from that 

1121
01:17:17,640 --> 01:17:19,400
as you approach these final 
hours? 

1122
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:24,520
I do. 
I can't say that it's going to 

1123
01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:27,720
be being in the the valley of 
the shadow of death is it's 

1124
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:30,320
something that I've become all 
that accustomed to and then I'm,

1125
01:17:30,440 --> 01:17:34,880
you know, and then I'm strong 
and nothing's bothering me. 

1126
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:39,560
Listen, it's no fun. 
It's it's, you know, it's, it's,

1127
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:46,320
it's gets kind of lonely. 
And yet I have to remind myself 

1128
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:51,160
that every one of us will go 
through this someday in one way 

1129
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:55,000
or another. 
And countless millions who have 

1130
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:56,360
walked this earth before us 
have. 

1131
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:58,960
So this is just an experience 
which we all share. 

1132
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:17,860
Yeah, right on. 
And I'm telling you because the 

1133
01:18:17,860 --> 01:18:19,540
cops let me keep killing them. 
Nick. 

1134
01:18:19,540 --> 01:18:22,580
Nick, Nick, get it? 
Not everybody is killing seven 

1135
01:18:22,580 --> 01:18:24,580
people. 
So there must have been 

1136
01:18:24,580 --> 01:18:26,380
something in you that was 
getting you. 

1137
01:18:26,540 --> 01:18:29,940
Oh, you are lost, Nick. 
You are lost, Nick. 

1138
01:18:30,140 --> 01:18:34,520
You are lost, Nick. 
I was a hitch hiking hooker. 

1139
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:36,800
You're inhuman. 
You're an inhumane bunch of 

1140
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:39,080
fucking living bastards and 
bitches and you're going to get 

1141
01:18:39,080 --> 01:18:41,800
your asses nuked in the end. 
And pretty soon it's coming. 

1142
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,120
2019, a rock's supposed to hitch
you anyhow. 

1143
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:48,920
You're all going to get nuked. 
You don't take fucking human 

1144
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:51,960
life like this and just sabotage
and RIP it apart like Jesus on 

1145
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,680
the cross and say thanks a lot 
for all the fucking money I made

1146
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:57,520
off of you and not care about a 
human being. 

1147
01:18:57,520 --> 01:19:00,200
And the truth being told, now I 
know what Jesus was going 

1148
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:03,120
through. 
They've been trying to tell the 

1149
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:07,520
truth and I keep getting it 
stepped on, concerned about if I

1150
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,160
was raped. 
If I, I'm not giving you book 

1151
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,320
and movie info, I'm giving you 
info for investigations and 

1152
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:20,280
stuff and that's it. 
We're going to have to cut this 

1153
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:23,160
interview, Nick. 
I'm not going to go into any 

1154
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:23,840
more detail.