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Straight from the people. Who live it every they learn
more to carbetter. So we're back with professor
derrick not in bell to we're will today talk about the the
saarquits if we's out from the beginning.
What is a saarquit? There in lies at tricky
business, the storicly it just to be tomed award.
If it but he was what and that we're know what a walk looks
like if if you see award on you or an and the out animal and you
see as arguide there is no simularity what's have a soguide
is a form of skin cancer. That the rives not from a change
in the sel structure, it self inharing structure, but from the
acquisition of a small partical of a peppalomavers and that gets
in to the sel is a fibre blast. It's a truma of fibre blast.
It's noting to do with. Skin and surface when you can
like as it's it's a it's a sell what's live's inside the skin
the farber bloss and and win we realize that we realize it's a
lock moul complicate then it actuity lux for my outside and
they identity lokal invasive but fortunity.
They do not spread to internal ogans the sockoide is a
potentaly lokaly manignant tuma not the what's it petatratsin to
the lokal tissue rejasent to weat the tuma is found in
initialy, but it just not spread, but the blood stream or
by the but the lymphatic system into internal ogans there's no
rekord in kase of that what's a about and that's simply because
it has an. It is in to meutational touma it
does and meutate for one stage to another because the it what
you've down is to put inside and it a time ball my suppose it's
put inside this so with converts it's bahavia into a holican ok
and then of go as you get the consequence is all so it's a
twouma of fibre blast, but it is a form of cancer.
Ok, and the where does it com from so you menschen from the
populomaviris the. Bova and populomaviris is
seamingly the main cours for it because i supposed histority.
This was this aspect of it was founded bei bei pathologies can
shared in glasgow in the mits mit early seventies on late
sixties, i think he was do in the work and published around
nineteen seventeen what you identified that the bowride
popular of a virs was involved here and the dan of corsever,
but it is a virs to see that was now becoms oh i'm on a minute
this is a virs and it's go to sprint.
By and like a virus, then do that no it's people does and do
that and it's a lotmol complicator not that it's on the
a little peace of the vires. We just the cours of the problem
ok, and so the vires does and motorply.
On the hors, the bowinepeppalomavirs.com so a
catal ja ok, and if you take that peppalomavirs and
injecteding to in to the skin of a hors you get what's call to
suedo sackoid it's a two mat at lux like a sackoid, but it get's
bigger and then sudandy the the mean system of the hors rembesit
there's i'm want to do on this and get's rit of it ok, and so
they all resolve if you take. The geno that is responsible for
it and inject it. Then you don't get handy of that
you just get what we know office of socka ok that transmission.
Work was done three the seventies and a ts of there and
and that that we were tate bits of the of the sargoid and
transfered from one side of the hors to another and of coach you
just got the sainting going and game so that is be we jackie
what what with happen with the with the tumer prediction leaf
was a fibrebrass tumer and you you we remember that the skin
contains thirteen different sells.
Of which fibre blast is one of them ok, and and these thirteen
cells all have that on kansas, so there all a kansas genuine
kansas of fibre blasts fibre sockom of, for example that are
different and there's on mutational tumas but not
insertional tumas like the like sackgate ok.
And how.com an or sackgate in Horses.
About that's a interesting question in in 19 seventy two, i
think seventy two. I don't it little sevely and in
a markets to stables arounded about and i can't the two point
five Prozent of horses have a proximity two point five socuits
each on everage. Ok.
Of cors and avridge just an meanalord because if i but one
of your legs in the freeze and the kind of forty and one of
your legs in the avanet two hundred degrees on avrit you
very comftable so that you extremed don't we're want to met
as i see, but but it least it get's an index, it's so they we
conmision so i don't know the one just bevor i retide in and
two thousand and 9, we're i're i think that eight point five
prozent of horses. Have twenty five saargoid seach
on every so that shows that there's been aroys in the
incidence of saargoid in the population of horses, and that
is sergeant be true and that crash the reason for that is not
clear. I think it has something to do
with the with the flys we're i belief to be responsible for
transmission of that is seas. Like main not be a simpolis that
we don't know in truth. We don't know that it, but but i
think we have to have some high polices it liest.
We're a same this is like leed to be some thing involve with
the because we stop controlling flys around them ok because we
don't spray stables with chemicors.
The. Kind of Fries we we just let
them go and because that's part of Award live.
What's also very hard to have. And it's but it's.
You trike on. And it's very differor to keeper
trik of it. So so i think it's it's it's
it's by fanger in the way the common is two of horses by
fanger of all and of cors, it is by fanger in the way the common
is cutani is two of horses by a lowway and so because you can
see it and and should be reginizable and we should be i
will to do some think that they're.
A. So but we do the usualy app here
that's. Annollation that is important
because the one place we don't see us post.
It's more in they in the negative, the Beasts.
That they. Don't to car on the back of the
hors on the back in the bottic region for the most part and you
have see one o two that out of i don't know i'll lot of sockrits
i don't have. Hundred tenmore than hundred and
fifty thousand tases through my service anyway, and I'm can the
man i I'm retried analyson but what it is in what the skin is
very thin. What is limited have with a
horse swats without difficulty and we're flys can feed without
being repellwold. That is in the on pet regions
around the is from the based of the is of the sites of the maut
and in the gryan region right about the memory glant and
around the shief in the penis of the hors and all there's all
we's critaryat I'm most prevenant beyond that sock
what's a car at won sites now the question is the won that's
not have to be big the womed can be my chrisopic.
The for at my even be the bite of a biteing fly.
I'm Blood sucking flying that don't transmit the disease, the
biteing flys. That create the room and to
which the sockoide element what have you you belief that to be
yourself could be avires and could be part of the vires or
some of that. We think that you my think all
that i don't think about and or potenting that this is
necesarity the gospel and it main or toply it all in the end,
but at least it the moment it it is a reasonable, i poses that
then the surface feeding flys feed on the sockoide.
I know that's aquate of a that and that at the hors all on the
and not a site on the same hors and then they sit on the site
because that's how so this feeding fly is feed and like to
go to runes and things open, and then they're a transmitted in to
that not just because they're a carry the viral component all
the vires we're have a way you want to do canat it.
They a do's in mean assasserity that they the two will go grip.
It's all need just to you the do and that's why they're a car in
the sites, so what IA car the toolim for exalm for from the
carnier band of the fat lock of the nee copers and in rum the
nee or the rum the hawk region these are always insipient
corses of we're and healing fedia.
Ok. And that cost a will and does
and heal and. Does and.
Heal and does and heal and does you do all the thing is that
does the post to make a will for me all have with them me, it
does and heal and i does meal does and heal and every really
panics and then you take a by ups and oh the it's a saw quite.
Ja, ok and. That's the Problem.
You Menschen early. Intervention or so how do you
actually spot this arco is in anerity stage.
I think that there are some there are some signals because
it's a two mal of fibre blast that has a genetic expression
that relates to peppaloma vires. It will change the behavio the
surrounding. Ragnasites upcors it das cositic
expresses mediates that to fuser and so the first signs of a
sogway to usly at change in the hack color in a circular fashion
with a little hell as a rier in the little o if you pick up to
skin a little bit and ronit petrinia fingers like that you
can feel a little britti bits inside little.
Walls growing inside because every single sells that every
think of two and a starts out as a single.
Sell it's start out as billions sever and starts out as what and
and so the gragity gragity get it if you do CD'S hall as round
areas of them interesting lean of associ to blunt vessels i the
on the inside in the time and they're a lots a prominent blunt
vessels in the hors all on the unpit all around the ea or the
eye what blutt vessel. Or prominent on on the second.
I they feeding off the bloodwessel or.
They don't feed off the bloodwessel they feed off the
wind that is that because the flys feed on the bloodwessel and
see the buy and flys feed of the bloodwessel they can see have
this link and seems to satisfy it's a high prothesis it's not
this is not proof, it's not in it's a high prothes.
And but it it themes to provide and explonation for the home
epidemiology of the equance arquide you can't treat it as
aviras blowing around on the wind.
No you know because it's the inside of the thy preferentialy
if it's going around on the blowing around on the wind.
Yes, and why what and it's the and infect every hors and why
they're. Funny just see that's in the
effect every single solitry hors that's us to the.
The fact that there are some wars is that are geneticly per
pedos bost to or to disease and some wars is that are geneticly
resistent to the disease because they don't have the genes that
in part susseptability and these are in myopinion geneticly
sussept a genes for genetic suceptibility and this more that
one of there's we don't know how many but they're baby three all
for of i. And so for horses has one gene
for suceptability at me have miled as he's if it has to and
so and so for, but the problemies if you treat it like
that a signifian proportion of the overall population of horses
seems to have the genes that in pot suceptability so ja sixty
prozent to more may have genes that get some form of
suceptability. And it's quit compicated because
you may have to have this gene one a gene a bevor you have any
suceptability relating to gene BCD and EI haveing a gene E.ON
it's on doesnt help at all and it you can to text that gene
it's they it's got a gene for them and main need the others or
one or more in some companation to be don't don't have to think
of this. I prophicies that we're not ball
the sees. I'm sorry but.
That. It's just i don't think the car
and textprenation is good you know and II think it do's in the
pride, I'm in the humans have a brackaging it brackaging and
proths a septability to some forms a can's a bristan's a
prostate conses servical conses so und so for.
In One in one form or not up and so people have that do's a mean
they going to get there's. Conses now but they're more and
likely. Ok so, so as far is that's con
so then people up's it will or i the vires and and that led us to
the concept of a vaxine that we're talking about or it as
people so it will you convexenate children against.
A papalomavirs and they don't get so of a canse I'm in Boyz
get axenate is will of and that so and they and that of cors
protectum but a course that's a very different socom stance from
the song coid yes see that gaven ide of a fladof informate oh my
god we god the solution we just make an not a vires backsine
like we god for peopalomavirs for people, we just make it and
sockwins will all be protective. With it don't work like that
because it's not like that and disease is an immuno jennic and
that's all and for them all servical can's of, for example
is an epithelial two, it's a servical cosanoma is a squame of
so cosanoma and that is a barry differ thing for my fibre blast
we've two and which is an intern or meason climble so type so.
And you can't treat them in the samway it's inpossible to do
that and we we should get a way from the vexine story because
it's in my view. It's arrational I'm servaly
they're very view document and reports of success i really
understand white people do it and that's what they do it
because that's the concept it was that's pot out but unfortity
it just. It's an work.
It's you know. Working and inifitis working
publish it that's see the publication that's see what we
can do and that's pract the code of this disease because it's
geting out in hand. It's geting out in hand i will
we off and presenting it we're off and presented with hidias
cases upsolity in cases that you what not belief.
What be what Beats existent and i fort when i started out
dealing with this three seven years it go that we would
eliminate there's and we would start dealing with early kasens,
but we're still for them to every day with hidias kases
upsently hidias and you save what's going wrong here you
know, we know kases got kens of for years we have we have kens
of for years what to me expect ja.
You know get to recover you know you.
Know for shirt. It's we know you don't deal with
cans and i that's why that's really reckignition that you're
talking it out, it's a. Critical nation but so then that
brings as actually two with the kurs of treatment, how because i
mean i think with being and stables all of that we all see
in people's a or just but a rubber band on it or but two's
past or or all all of this. Things that are actually not
very klinical i would say but how do you have should we treat
the sarkoid all? Like depends with they all you
know, they're acritary that we have to when we makeing a
decision for tritment we have a series of twelve decisions that
have to be made and the list of cors in bos the typ of sarkoid
the location of the sarkoid the extent of the sarkoid you know
the the the greed we're a. It's the hord so it's a type the
the location the duration what's been done bevor and the
prognoses that is for i will six thing that we consid a primarity
and then we have to say what's a bailable because that we
gressible. They there's no commonity of
what's available and so what's available in swits and and a
very different for what's available in France, so Evan A
cross, the boarder in Germany and you know evan with in you
know twenty five we what with the one Meter with just the
board of with you know there's such an enorm is differenz in
what's available and and what can be done so and there are.
Want to different trigments that i have looked have of the years
and and this involves penal of surgical trigments we can do
surgery we can do ligation, which is what you mansion poting
a rupper wing ram. The was it doesnt wok and the
reason that doesnt wok and this you're very very lucky, some
don't you're very lucky because there's an to any rutson is the
when you look at a sok, i what you see.
It's just a tipp of the is. What you see what there is is
you're fingers and that they go in every with direction.
The wave like a andchalm we in rabas if you get my trive so so
then you have to get to everything one so if you're for
the rubbering on it and you live some sells behind the rubbering
ok, a it's going back but be all a blonds supply that went to the
holtuma now goes to the bartant the bittant the bartum.
Not spitting mat and that's a well don't phänomen for all
conses in all species that you interfear arrationaly the two
and get's angry and comes back was and every ok and so sojical
metals you know these kind of things and shop surgery laser
surgery you know diathomy i just i used I'll monic scalpal
plasman i you all is. Insticate and surgical things
you can do with all was of forse you can't but how do you know
you've got the holtumer DC, and if you don't have the holtumer,
what is the like he consequence like he no cert and he but like
he the tuber it's also will come back wears anever we're can't.
A lot of that to happen because what is growing on the nef, you
don't see and to it's two late so you're going because it's cut
off and everything glucks find and everything glucks find and
mean time what's going on the nef is growing growing grings is
any minute now i'm going to rush for the surface and that wash it
comes to the surface that oh my god this is a terrible state of
a fast. So actually it kind of grow
reany fasts there is no. There's no general timeline
actually on how it. I'm not I'm going to know I'm
see in tumes that they're static for thirtee is and i'm see in
tumes that have a entroped with in days from tumes all that
interfued with or not interfued so it's such an unpredicible and
i think mostly that's what's. The previous raw the like it is
a cool rw the lay safe and live it to lone it to be all.
Right, i can't the more you poke it to the more, i'm like.
Poking you tigers, it's it to know it's to you poking extra
and then subanies not happy with you and and that's it so so the
reality is that. As far as the surgical
treatment, so consign to go be very careful and you've go to
send the somples off for histology because that's
professionally and my view professionally obligatry.
It's should not ever be left without the histology because
you have to know it protexes the patient for the anastomosting
bourden this it protexes surgeon as the segant and the that think
is protexy owner and of cores for the.
Profession because this is at the right and proper
professional think to do what we do if we have a two my cutal
phells and there's that we're going to ball that with the
histology. No.
We we we're be hurifi ja hurifi I'm Kind rightly so yes, we
adoct is what be struck all that that it that i don't.
For share that we're. But we're so out them, but that
it because fifty franks extra to out the pathology.
But when you consider. What is costing to remove it
anyway and what the cost of a recurrents is fifty fridays like
stupido. Yes absolutity but that's go's
like to the to doing something store what in are the stage or
that and waiting it out. So that's a surgicaleron of
variity of surgical methes it individual people do but i'm
kind to in carage because of the risks people to you surgory
plus. Concurrent keymatherapy so
you're remove a two mut and you inful trait the arry with some
keymatherapy and then you're watch for the keymather for the
histology report to comback, and then you take some action a
cordingly so you've your action with the information you carry
the information into the action ok, and that you naves you to
get battle results not perfect. And not no cancer if is i'llash
you we the internet there is, there is no cancer in the world
that has dokument in one hundred prozent success rate, not not
even one, but if you read the internet about the sockoid as
you so rightly sorry. There's two pasted as a one
hundred prozent success and some of the nonsons that the ALC you
know all sols of rubis that's in publised you know term or it
past you know this in consit you know this so so it's out
consent, we'll like to people you it carry still get consent.
And as. You know if it was that good.
With it is not. No if there was evidence that
you would actually care it's and it's what all of the biene her.
Absolutity so i just think you know we've got to get some
rational keem at there, we will go to develop keem at there a
puting agens that we can us in a junction with in conjunction
with sergory because you want to improve you're sixty prozent
overall surgical prognoses and i know sombody listing to this is
get a sate is, this is rubish because i get a 100%.
And that's find, but if you is geting will she is geting a
hundred prozent, then she's a puta data in the publication
that tella so she does it because that's what has to
happen, we was we have to learn from that so from stance and we
have to make the best of it we can but i've don't.
Supervised the treatment of more them a hundred and fifty five
thousand cases. All this disease and i know that
to get a hundred prozent success is impossible and and that for
if you have and got a failure, get he's still have and done in
off. Oh you're being very selective
about the one's it you're very lucky all all three on this's
going you know and and we. All need a bit of Lock in now
lies if you're happen to be air, we're shice a pois, no you've
people toke about the lock of the air.
Is you know they they they have a hund of the sand, but that's
because they go all so it's a shamrocks and thing is but give
them give them event so so that's they the combination so
you're in kim at there in kim at there can be us on it so we've
got lots of new kim at they're puting agions kind of platon
five your sloweries my to mizen CM plans this kind of things
topical my to mizen seas. The greatest but it's it's it's
AA it's used anyway, but we just got to be very rational about
what we are expecting we stratements to be able to do and
some of them or able to do a lord and some of them on not
able to do very much at all some of them or at jumtive and to be
used and a long side of this like sergure real crure surgery
what have a. And that's good, so that's the
key my therapy and that's lots of agents for that.
Now you know they're also that we was a got immino therapy and
that's very interesting was that users the body's on immunsystem
to target because of sils and can's that on the exists because
your immunsystem fails to reckignal is the two massels not
because your immunsystem is. Is bad and impad, but because
the can't so so you can't improve your immunsystem to it
to say hang on a minute. I'm going to beable to reginice
these think is we're jaring camer flash because they just
like a new camer flash. The sells hide them sells that
this is so the scientific receptor macines and on the
surface of blogs, the the the mac receptor and and that when
that happines it is a meta have good you or in you in system,
and then we're going to for in smarts eva and you will've to
make it ja not to make it reckignisable you're i the have
to you're you're i have to change the sell completely or
you have to. Stick something on to it so when
have a cansas sole develops he carry's tutible flanks i am your
friend and the all the ones, so the First flight i am your
friend, the all the One don't teed me ok, so we have a time
they me and system see's this so it is walk post.
I'm in the so Fessel all right. And.
You're but it beast, it's allustator it's what i tell on
it's ok and so and you kind for therapay.
You have to say how can i change the don't eat me for like a
paint out it's sign over to sticky label on the.
Don't coming get so. Now it's as eat me you see, but
the other flags still that it's i'm your friend so one trick
kind of treatment is not really in off because the cat the
immunsystem so oh hang do i do i do this or hang on this is i'm
your friend how can i eat my friend?
I can myself for. It's like the rut so this don't
work for you. Well it in combination if you
can combined that with something that ses inserts into the sel, i
am not your friend and you can bine in me not therapy with kema
therapy that i am not your friend eat me that so out
straight away. If you're going for that, yes
and all can's up if we single thing on's always as ending to
make the immunsystem, see every single sell we can if you make
the immunsystem see every single sell all.
Then it's car of it. Ups and it the ja now that
tellies with the one or two saarguids that respond and that
resolve on that on completely i've see in saarguids conform
saarguids that. That we to his don't you see
conformed that then we like we can't deal with it right now
because a horses going to olympia or going to the
olympics, so i. Just just disapears I'm how.
And then six weeks like to do, it's a tuma, i it's going to
just just appeared one they you see there was horses as immun
for the rest of that live so that is you see and it will see.
This in some. What?
And i think of see that it's you know was this and we just need
to beable to find a way triggering it and that's what i
some of the bizon stupent things work if we don't get pudding two
face on the tumor. Triggers this that'll change, no
white is it do that it's not consistant no and it only does
it ones in a 1000000 no what have a twos of horses that get
two past or my vague my momide that that you know this beef
beefs spread in australia or tamaric past or tt oil and all
these kind of things that people proton it everyone it just
triggers that same thing. With just the spontane as
resolution syndrom, i the of an individual touma all mal
poticinity of the homebody there's anomals i think of the
resistance to the you can that the go to all the jeans for
sisap to will it's open resistance now and that's
because they're immunsystem no's what to look for it's it's like
a makeing the immunsystem so god and so strong that it is going
to a bluterate everything because it's it's like any more
reginisible. It know convertity immunsystems
they hang on a minute when we see that we still going to kill
it. Yeah you see and.
Then i go, but so you see in the meckanism basity so how a klaus
to do you think? You are to solved or the
vetrinary. I'm we're time.
But the vetrinary field hocklos do you think the art to solved?
We're in the sombody ons to tok to me are we willing to tok to
sombody ja, because at the Moment.
All the researchistal looking for virices looking for vaxins
looking for things, i don't think it's the right way to go
and I'm viewed as a bit of an outly I'm a bit of an not case
and and and may may I'm rong. And may be nots.
But may be not and absolutity and and may my hot polices
onses. Right you not everything we know
about the epidemiological states out this disease explains right.
There's six different types up disease it explains white,
there's some with a more easily treat at explains white, some
spontaniesly resolve it explains white, they will exessabate
explains white, there's no iminological reckignition no
molke that we know off with in the blunt it explains white not
think to do with the vires and we don't have fires conversion.
It's experensive, it's experensive what it's the right
thing and not is in not the mat of it.
That's that's what I've put up as an option you know and it's
only men to that framework and i know that's a people working on
the disease across the world and no down theywill.com up with
onses but sinside been interested and now for fifty
seven years, i don't think. The has been in off bluesky
thinking that's no bluesky thinking, it's oh.
Is back related to the original work about the vires and so and
and so for and i think with balking up the rong tree you
know this is not the wate, I'll new.
To white and a lilabits this is go and von ja.
We need to white and all minds to alternative suggestions for
this is because what's the the current the carent dogma mhm,
that's not explane that is is. Will if also if the have an
founder solution going down that road and we like you to go down
another road. And then the Gold Standard
treatment is radiation. That's unfortunity becoming less
and less and less a reagable the place and france this and do it
animal. That's one in germany that
reluctant to do it no i think with the htr radiation.
What is reason for the the being reluxant to?
Do it. I they don't want to do it on
horses they that have the unit, but they i think they.
I don't know that they want to do with it and it seems to me
well i know the from the french places cars down for as so
that's out of the question, they're animal have trusted and
you know i to Kingdom clase down Liverpool trust that's radiation
you know i left and. Is it because of like a
resources or? II.
Don't politics. It's politics and and red tape
because win have you're dealing was radiation.
You have to have very special with the solitic you have to
beable to but the anomals in to her surtoning one, but
historicly it took you know long time to treat them was radiation
for you's low Dost. Ready why is intrelational
whyers you know and and Black latony we US HD r no the low
do's with ten days or in the box with the wire sitting in.
You know that you's to be done for prostate cancin particular,
but all so some surf for cancins and the whis we shaped to
calling lee and so, so there's the implanted then people is the
walker out with the whisin you know and walker out, and we're
going to ready a to right and but they don't do that and you
more they's HD r now and HD r is mechanism budding the whisin and
then. When i was you do's of
readiation and immediity very will planed and we will
constructed application and then five ten minutes mabi fifty
ministlator taking all out to get and the was just goes home
and the two was get butter and i've seen lols of the he's and
and when it was a will ja but it's not and that's not go i's
not go. I just to be we have to be
better because radiations the gold standard yes, and that get
us as near one hundred percent as we can get usly ok out of my
five for nealy five hundred kase for and to and some in kases
that i'd it liverpool, we we failed in three i think.
So it's. But some of them need it.
Two lords some of them need it multiple treatment some of them
this and that threed and failed on no i and these we have an
explonation so last it is not have a person and if.
No, but it's still call to higg's re success.
For the the out of the treatment's by no the out of
treatment so. So to rap this up will would be
your practical advis or your take home message in regards to
sour coats to hors oners. The tech the murly look of your
hors on the regular bases. If you find ital.
Areas of skin changes that don't look right, we're have a they up
at my particulin the sites with argways to elopin the onpits
from the face on the eye and in the croin us to that.
Contact you that and say what is this ok and havely you was AI
think my horse as a sackgate but also them because the man not be
a sackgate because it's the tipes of sackgate have a
different set of all the conditions that good be involved
and that's not as easy to separate them, but.
That's with experience can do this and as it's all swiss study
with swissmody from burn was amazing, and they proved that
that's with very good at makeing the diagnosis without taking
samples because it if you like a sampel for massakai remember
you're interfering but it and you have to me really to do
something you can't just walk away ok, you're kind of walk
away a fed the more you on the walk away for massakai it if
you're yourself personity. I going to walk away from you're
on cance up and i don't think we're going to do that all we.
No for sure nots, but we're like you to be in switz you land, we
have a good that's for that. Thank you so like they're for
your insight. Think you for joining aus dem
Professor Derrick not in belt for this fasinate in
conversation and equine sarkozes if you've injoy this episode
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