1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,080 You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:21,280 Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson Castle 3 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:27,840 and Javier joining you as we are during the first week of the IU 4 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,080 coaching search and already seems like it's been going on 5 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,240 for like a couple of weeks at this point, but it was plenty to 6 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,480 talk about with it. And so we wanted to start 7 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,400 bringing on some of the folks that we've talked with in the 8 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,560 past throughout the coaching searches. 9 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,040 We've got Tony Adronia joining us, who I think most of you are 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,720 familiar with either from X or from his work with Back Home 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,240 Network. Tony, great to see you. 12 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,800 How you doing today? I'm fantastic. 13 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,840 Yeah. I, I you should know me actually 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,160 from Crimson Cast, if you're a Crimson Cast man, this is, I 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,840 think this is year like 14 for me joining Crimson Cast. 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,400 So that's where I I got my start. 17 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,040 A lot of a lot of people are not O GS. 18 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,120 We have a lot of O GS in the audience, but we have a lot of 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,640 new audience. So I want to make sure that we 20 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 properly introduce you. But yes, Tony's been with us for 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,400 a long time and we've always appreciated his thoughts and 22 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,240 insights on things and he wrote a really fascinating piece, 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,400 which we're going to get to and kind of dive into that. 24 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,400 If you're if you're not subscribed to the assembly call 25 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,640 sub stack, I'd highly recommend you do that. 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,240 You can go back. You can see Tony's piece as it's 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,120 very pertinent to what we're going to be talking about 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,480 overall in terms of the IU coaching search. 29 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,160 Before we get to that, couple quick reminders. 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,360 We are brought to you by Home Field apparel here on the entire 31 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,560 back home network, including Crimson cast to be sure to go to 32 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:53,440 Home Field Apparel for the latest in their fully stocked 33 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,040 collegiate clothing line. Just everything across the board 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,360 from T-shirts to crew necks to hoodies to everything in 35 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,160 between, bomber jackets, hockey hoodies, it's just a remarkable 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,720 array. Use the code home 23 and get 15% 37 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:09,639 off your first order. Again, that's home field 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,600 apparel.com. Be sure to give them a follow on 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,720 the socials as well. They do an awesome job there. 40 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,440 Also, we are on sub stack, assembly calls on sub stack. 41 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,040 That's where you can get a lot of Tony's materials. 42 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,080 Crimson Cast is also on Substack. 43 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,080 You can go to crimsoncast.substack.com. 44 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,000 Subscribe for free. Get podcast delivered right to 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,080 your inbox. Tony, let's go ahead and dive in 46 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,040 with things as we get started with the first full week where 47 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,520 we know that IU is going to have a coaching vacancy. 48 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,320 We've already started to see the narratives taking shape. 49 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,920 We're already seeing hot boards being put out there and and most 50 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:47,040 of them are not, we're really well thought out at all. 51 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,600 But we're not going to talk about hot boards today. 52 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,440 I do want to talk about narrative, though. 53 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,480 And one of the big narratives that I feel like more and more 54 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,040 now, and it isn't a new thing necessarily. 55 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,880 Like this is stuff that was being trotted out, you know, 56 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,680 even in the middle of the Crean era and certainly was trotted 57 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,720 out after he was fired, after Archie Miller was fired. 58 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,560 This idea of, you know, is there a problem with the IU basketball 59 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,480 program? Is there something about the job 60 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,200 that makes it unattractive? Is there is there something 61 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,360 structurally wrong with the program and and that's creating 62 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,560 the issues where I use constantly going back to the 63 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,800 well, trying to find coaches. Now those of you who have been 64 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,240 watching or listening to this show for a while, I think you 65 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,440 know where I stand. But I, I saw your piece, which 66 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,160 is titled Indiana basketball's problem Isn't institutional, 67 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,800 it's making bad hires. And I was like, oh, oh, good. 68 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,120 This is I, I feel like I'm, I'm no longer alone on this corner. 69 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,160 And, and to be fair, there's other people that feel this way, 70 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,240 but I feel like this has become almost a meme, Tony, that 71 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:54,040 somehow the IE basketball job isn't that good or that there's 72 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,960 there's something structurally at issue, whether it's with the 73 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,160 fans or whether it's with whatever people want to argue. 74 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,120 It doesn't really hold up to a lot of scrutiny. 75 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,840 But I did want to talk about this idea of, you know, IU 76 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,960 basketball being a a problem versus the people that IU has 77 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,520 hired being a problem. So let me start off with your 78 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,360 original thoughts or rationale as far as all of that is 79 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,920 concerned. Yeah, it's funny this this can 80 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,560 be more pertinent today because John Rothstein actually today 81 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,960 made this exact statement. Why is Indiana such a good job? 82 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,680 Since 1994, thirty one years ago, Indiana has been to the 83 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,240 second weekend of the NCAA tournament four times. 84 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,840 Mike Davis went once, Tom Crane three times. 85 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,480 That's it. 4 trips in 31 years. Is, is Indiana a great job or 86 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,560 did it have an all time coach in Bob Knight? 87 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,440 Is his thesis there? Or, or I guess it's question, 88 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,520 but obviously it's it's pretty obvious what he's insinuating 89 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,360 there as he says that. So, yeah, you know, it's it's a 90 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:00,800 narrative that we're going to see a lot. 91 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,560 You know, this won't be the first or the last time that that 92 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,640 we see that. And, you know, overall, I just 93 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,560 flat out do not agree with it. You know, when you look at the 94 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,840 resources that this program has at its disposal, you know, 95 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:18,960 that's, that's fan support. Obviously, you know, that's, 96 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:25,080 that's monetary support both to the institution and also to NIL, 97 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,400 which both are are vastly important hotbed recruiting 98 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,520 ground, national exposure. You know, all the things that 99 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,680 coaches look at, you know, when they decide, do I want this job? 100 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,840 So, you know, the overarching theme of like, is Indiana a good 101 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:46,280 job? Doesn't make a lot of sense to 102 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:50,040 me. And and maybe maybe pre NIL, you 103 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,440 could say it's losing its luster a bit. 104 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,240 But now with NIL being in the full in Indiana, seemingly being 105 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,720 a top five, at the very least top ten program in terms of NIL, 106 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:04,760 like I think it's very apparent now that Indiana is a very, very 107 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,960 good job. And I think, you know, when you 108 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,920 look at hot boards, that actually makes sense. 109 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,040 And, and most of them do not. I think the hot board this time 110 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,080 around versus the hot boards even last time around when they 111 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,880 hired Mike Woodson, again, for the two or three out there, that 112 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,680 actually makes sense. You know, this time around it's 113 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:25,640 it's bigger and better names, I think. 114 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,080 Yeah. I mean, there's a couple things 115 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,920 before we dive into the details that you laid out in in the 116 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,520 piece that I think are worth keeping in mind. 117 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,080 Like A, and I talked about this I think over the weekend, you 118 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,120 got to understand that in coaching circles, coaches love 119 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,520 to point the finger at everybody else when they don't have 120 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,040 success. And that isn't to say that there 121 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,640 aren't fingers to point or people to point those fingers 122 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:50,000 at. I'm, I'm not saying that all 123 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,720 coaches are wrong, But when coaches do struggle at a place, 124 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,720 you always hear, oh, it's the institution's fault or, you 125 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,000 know, it's this the athletic director didn't give them 126 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,040 support or they didn't get NIL. Like the NIL thing is one we 127 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,840 hear a lot about now where you know, you'll, you'll hear 128 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:10,120 excuses or you'll, you'll hear coaches without naming any names 129 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,720 or or giving any figures say, well, this guy was given like 130 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,960 this ridiculous offer. It's like, well, that, that it's 131 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,960 too convenient often times to point your finger that direction 132 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,760 so often. And the fact that it happens all 133 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,840 over the place, but yet there's no names dropped. 134 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,800 This is an old, an age-old thing where you'd have coaches 135 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:29,160 complaining, well, everybody's cheating. 136 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:30,760 Well, who's cheating? Well, I don't want to go into 137 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,640 details. Well, that's a problem because 138 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,240 how are we supposed to take that seriously? 139 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,320 Take your word for it. So that's, that's one issue. 140 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,640 Another issue though, is if the idea is that there's not support 141 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,320 at IUI, think all you have to do is look at what happened this 142 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,240 offseason where Mike Woodson was able very quickly to assemble a 143 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,200 large war chest to go out and get a bunch of really highly 144 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,120 paid players in the portal to reassemble a roster to cover for 145 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,800 the lack of recruiting success or or or consistency. 146 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,400 And that's not a that's not something that's going to happen 147 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,240 in a lot of other locations like the financial resources are 148 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,160 there. The one thing I do think, and 149 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,840 I'd be curious to get your take on that you could and then we 150 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,320 didn't necessarily say this is a a bad thing about the IU job. 151 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,840 But it is a factor that a lot of coaches now seem to be 152 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,280 considering is if I can go somewhere, have good resources 153 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,200 and a lot of success, but not have a lot of people necessarily 154 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,760 like passionately care about the success or failure of the team. 155 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,640 That's an ideal situation because I'm able to essentially 156 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,560 I can, I can stash a few bad seasons here or there. 157 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:47,160 There's not an expectation of like we're going to have to be 158 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,320 up at this high level. I, I don't know if I totally buy 159 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,080 it because it's like when I look at where a lot of coaches are 160 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,800 having success, yes, some of them are doing it at, at non 161 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,400 traditional basketball powers, but they're generating a lot of 162 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,320 sudden new expectations with the success they're having. 163 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,160 And the idea that that's that people just go quietly into the 164 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,160 night if they start struggling doesn't make a whole lot of 165 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,080 sense. You know, how much of that do 166 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,240 you really think factors in with Indiana where there's this 167 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,920 reception that it's a fishbowl, that, you know, you're going to 168 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,640 be constantly under scrutiny that the expectations are way 169 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,560 too high? It could be one thing if IU was 170 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:26,880 firing coaches after long, you know, streaks of of, you know, 171 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,880 tournament making the tournament and success in the tournament 172 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,720 and finishing in the top four of the Big 10. 173 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,920 But that's like fundamentally not what's happened in Indiana 174 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,520 over the last 25 years. But I'm but I'm curious like how 175 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,200 much of a factor do you think that actually is? 176 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,360 To me, I, I don't think it's one at all. 177 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,360 And honestly, like, let's pull all the candidates in and ask 178 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,440 them that, like, is this something that concerns you? 179 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,960 And any of them that say yes, like, all right, goodbye. 180 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,480 To me, that's, that's very much kind of a loser mentality and 181 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,360 not somebody that like wants to go win titles. 182 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,760 And I could be wrong in that that assessment, but you know, I 183 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,840 want a guy that wants the pressure. 184 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,760 Like, you know, they say pressure makes diamonds or burst 185 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,120 pipes and it kind of depends on how you, how you deal with it. 186 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,640 So you know, you, I'm sure there are people out there like that, 187 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,680 but to me, those aren't necessarily guys that have 188 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:18,560 national championship aspirations. 189 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,440 Those are guys that want to be comfortable. 190 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,000 And to me, that's not somebody that I necessarily want leading 191 00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:29,080 the program. So is it a thing? 192 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,160 I'm sure it is with some guys out there. 193 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,440 But to me that's more of like a a mid tier kind of coach that 194 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:37,800 that necessarily doesn't necessarily have those those 195 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,720 championship aspirations, but. It, yeah, I know it is 196 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,520 interesting, kind of. I agree with you on it is 197 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,320 interesting. You look back at the last, you 198 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,280 know, I don't know, 15 or so national champions in 199 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,040 basketball. There aren't very many schools 200 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,640 that you wouldn't consider to, you know, have really high 201 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,280 expectations that have won those. 202 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,200 I mean, Virginia is up there. Villanova is kind of a special 203 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:01,720 case because it's relatively small. 204 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:09,120 But I mean, North Carolina, Duke, Yukon, Kansas, Kentucky, 205 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,440 Louisville, technically with an asterisk. 206 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,480 I mean, these are all programs where I think we saw this with 207 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,400 UConn, you know, they they won titles and then they had a coach 208 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,960 who won a title and then was struggling to make the 209 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,200 tournament. It's not like those fans enjoyed 210 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,280 that or were kind to the situation as it was happening. 211 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,800 So it is it is kind of an interesting thing because I, I 212 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,680 kind of agree with you on the mentality perspective. 213 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:33,960 Yeah, it's a lot more comfortable to be in other spots 214 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,880 perhaps, but there are only a finite number of schools that 215 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,800 you can really legitimately expect to win national titles 216 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,600 at. And I think it took until, you 217 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,520 know, it's been 100 years since the last title. 218 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,800 I think IU is probably going to be in that mixes of of schools 219 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,280 that you can do it at because five titles have been won here, 220 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,760 which is still among the most in the history of college 221 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,520 basketball. So kind of pivoting from that, I 222 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,480 think this is where looking at the coaches that you talked 223 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,440 about and the way that they were hired rather than looking at 224 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,120 some kind of 25 year continuum with IU basketball really makes 225 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,640 a lot of sense. Because one thing you could say, 226 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,600 Tony, is that there's been no archetype for hiring IU 227 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,680 basketball coaches. It has been very situational. 228 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,360 It has been very in the moment. It's been very much decided upon 229 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,080 by whoever happened to be in charge at the time or not as the 230 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,360 case may be in a couple of of instances. 231 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:30,400 And that has that does get lost in these kind of broad macro 232 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,880 evaluations of whether the job is good or not. 233 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,080 It certainly does. Yeah. 234 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,400 And you know, you look all the way back to, you know, the the 235 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:43,400 post night firing with with Mike Davis, he was very much kind of 236 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,640 that players coach, you know, the players had a voice in it 237 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,560 seemingly of Hey, this is the guy that we want. 238 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,480 And in that instance, when you have a fire a program legend and 239 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,400 you're trying to keep some sort of stability a foundation in 240 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,800 your program, especially back in in the year, you know, 2000 when 241 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,640 you didn't have the transfer portal to just remake a program, 242 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,560 like you're trying to keep some stability there. 243 00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:09,640 So really, you know, you make the hire that you think is going 244 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,760 to do that and Mike Davis and you know, while while Davis made 245 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,880 his final four run in 2002, and that was, you know, a lot for a 246 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,720 lot of fans, like kind of the last time we felt a great sense 247 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,840 of joy in March. You know, he he flamed out 248 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,400 obviously. And and by 2006, it was a 249 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,120 similar, similar situation to kind of what we're facing now, 250 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,920 where it was kind of there was that aura around the program of 251 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:38,520 like, this isn't going to end well. 252 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,360 And, you know, finally there was an announced resignation at the 253 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,440 end of the year and and whatnot. So it it actually has some some 254 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,360 parallels to this season, except for that team did make the NCAA 255 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,720 tournament, which I don't think this one's going to, but but 256 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:58,280 yeah, so I think, you know, with that, you look at that job. 257 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,160 So what what I tried to get at in my piece was, OK, well, when 258 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,240 these people left Indiana, then obviously if if Indiana's just 259 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,040 this horrible program, well, then when they left this 260 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,040 fishbowl environment, you know, they thrived elsewhere. 261 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,720 And my point was, obviously that's not been the case. 262 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,280 You know, with in Mike Davis's case, he went to UAB, made one 263 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,480 NCAA tournament in six years. Then he went to Texas Southern, 264 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:23,960 which obviously not exactly a basketball powerhouse. 265 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,720 He found some stability there, was there about a decade, made a 266 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,560 couple tournaments as 16 seeds. And then, you know, kind of try 267 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,120 his hand one more time to get back into kind of the the higher 268 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,920 ranks of college basketball. Was a head coach at Detroit 269 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,680 Mercy, made his son almost the highest scoring player in NCAA 270 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,880 history. And then the year, his final 271 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,400 year at Detroit, you know, had one of the worst seasons in in 272 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,880 college basketball history with A1 in 31 season. 273 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:51,960 And now he's an assistant coach at Memphis. 274 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,800 So like looking at that, you know, obviously after Indiana 275 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,600 never never really found success at a high level that would have 276 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,800 proved that he was capable and had the coaching shops to kind 277 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,000 of lead this Indiana program to the heights that we'd all like 278 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,120 to see it get to. It was one of the complaints and 279 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,520 the concerns about the Davis move. 280 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:13,960 And I think it's important to miss. 281 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,160 You know, it was literally 25 years ago. 282 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,360 It's important for people to understand there were not a lot 283 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,960 of folks that were excited about Mike Davis being named head 284 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,680 coach. But it was a stop gap. 285 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,160 At least that's how I think it was viewed to keep the players 286 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,360 in place. You know, they had advocated for 287 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,880 either him or John Treelore, who was the other assistant. 288 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,800 The administration actually offered both of them the Co head 289 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,080 coaching job on an interim basis for that 2002 thousand and one 290 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,120 season. You know, and it it was always 291 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,080 the debate. Well, you know, Davis finished 292 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,520 that season. They were they were a four seed. 293 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:50,880 They lose to Kent State in the first round. 294 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,120 It was a pretty loaded roster, but that was the best seeding 295 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,200 that Indiana had had in a while. I mean, all the previous time 296 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,000 that Indiana had been seeded as highest 4th was 1993. 297 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,880 So, yeah, I mean, there were other things that went on behind 298 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,320 the scenes that made that hire what it was in terms of like 299 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,920 converting Davis from the interim coach to the permanent 300 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,120 coach. I certainly at the time I was, I 301 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,720 had just graduated from college. I was just about to, I was the 302 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,400 sports director at the radio station here. 303 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,760 I didn't think it was a good move because you just didn't 304 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,080 have a lot of evidence that Mike Davis knew what it took to 305 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,040 manage a program of Indiana's stature. 306 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,600 And, you know, IA lot of people at the time and and this I think 307 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,760 kind of gets into both a a group think problem, but also a 308 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,600 misdiagnosis of how a basketball program runs. 309 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,560 I think people at the time almost taking the exact opposite 310 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,680 of what this particular podcast is, is trying to talk about 311 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,560 assumed that Indiana basketball was going to run itself and that 312 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,520 you needed essentially a finisher. 313 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,440 And then, you know, Bob Knight had lost that capacity. 314 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,480 His teams had had not been to the Sweet 16 since 1994. 315 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,320 It had been a six year gap at that point. 316 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,720 You know, Davis seemed to connect with the players better. 317 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,839 And it's like, well, that's all that's needed because IU is 318 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,520 going to continue to get top players. 319 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,800 They're going to continue to get people coming in and, you know, 320 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,480 being able to play at a high level AI don't think people 321 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:21,640 really realized how good that roster was that Davis had his 322 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,839 first year. You have Jared Jeffries as a 323 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:25,720 freshman. You had Kurt Haston, who 324 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,240 actually ended up going to the NBA, you know, after that year. 325 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,320 You had Tom Coverdale, who had not played hardly at all the 326 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,200 previous two years but had stated in a media interview 327 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,200 leading into that season that he had really rededicated himself 328 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,560 to basketball. They kind of found his passion 329 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,200 again, and that clearly showed. You had Kyle Hornsby. 330 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,040 You had all these pieces alongside players like Jeff 331 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,920 Newton and AJ Moye who either hadn't played yet or we were 332 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:54,440 just getting to know. My point is like there was a lot 333 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,040 of scaffolding there that Mike Davis was able to step into that 334 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,040 allowed that early success. And then you saw it the 335 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,880 following year where they had, you know, it was an odd season. 336 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,000 They would they lose 10 regular season games. 337 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,400 They lose to Iowa in the second round of the tournament and 338 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,880 Davis's first full season. But they make the national title 339 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,480 game. And so many people I think 340 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:14,840 looked at that and said, we'll see. 341 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,280 Vindicated decision to put Mike Davis in control of the team. 342 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,640 But what was happening underneath the surface was that 343 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,320 the cracks were already starting to show in terms of the lack of 344 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,200 understanding of how to manage that type of a program and what 345 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:29,760 kind of recruiting you needed to do. 346 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,880 And also just all of the things that come with running a large 347 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,680 program in terms of interfacing with donors, interfacing with 348 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:41,960 alums and being able to set up a a culture that's going to 349 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,880 sustain. And I think so many people at 350 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,160 the time were excited that it wasn't Bob Knight and it was a 351 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,160 different culture and a different approach. 352 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,440 And I'm not saying fans were necessarily excited, but I think 353 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,160 people around the university were excited about that, that 354 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,720 they tended to be somewhat blind to the fact that even though the 355 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,720 team was having success in that first year or so, that it was 356 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,320 not setting up well long term. That really did manifest itself 357 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,200 over the next three years of Mike Davis's time. 358 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,240 And you saw him make mistakes, like you saw him, you know, 359 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,040 essentially throw his seniors under the bus after the loss to, 360 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,240 what was it, Pittsburgh? I think in the in the in the 361 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:26,360 2003 NCAA Tournament, you saw him have, you know, that 362 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:29,760 meltdown against Kentucky on the floor, which led to him like 363 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,160 charging onto the floor and like slapping his his head and ending 364 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:34,320 up getting thrown out of the game. 365 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,000 Yeah. I mean, there was things like 366 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,520 that where you, you, if you were paying attention, it's like this 367 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,080 is a potential problem, but by that point it was almost too 368 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:44,880 late because you would you would fully committed. 369 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,720 And, and this is where for a lot of people at the time, and I'm 370 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,000 not trying to re litigate the Davis era, but to to prove the 371 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,080 point, it's like it was just a bad hire. 372 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:57,520 Not that not that Davis didn't deserve a chance necessarily, 373 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,640 but that this is what happens when you don't know if someone 374 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,840 can handle that job is put into the job. 375 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,520 You end up with a situation where it starts to devolve. 376 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:08,840 And then you rapidly get into a spiral where it devolves very 377 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:09,960 quickly. And that's essentially what 378 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,000 happened for a lot of that tenure in the middle part of it 379 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,240 at least. Yeah, and like you said, 380 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,240 ultimately, you know, bad hire, which was was kind of the the 381 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,280 crux of what I was getting at. And then, you know, you make a 382 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,000 bad hire, It's it's, you know, post legend. 383 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,160 And so kind of making it an emotional decision and what not. 384 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,320 Whatever the case is, you put that to bed, you let him go 385 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,640 after 2006 and you know, you turn over a new slate and that's 386 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,240 when you get Kelvin Sampson coming into Indiana. 387 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,640 Now, Kelvin Sampson is the one caveat and all of these guys 388 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,600 post IU career that have had success at the college level 389 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,720 since being let go by Indiana. However, obviously there are 390 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,560 numerous caveats with that as a guy that was given a five year 391 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,880 show clause had to go rebuild himself as an assistant coach to 392 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,000 the NBA ranks. And he obviously he was a guy 393 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,520 that was in trouble when he got hired at Indiana. 394 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,200 He you know, you could re litigate it all and and you 395 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,760 know, should Indiana have have self reported essentially which 396 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,360 led to his downfall at Indiana? You know, in terms of the on the 397 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,000 court stuff, obviously there was some off the court question 398 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,200 marks that were happening as well under his watch. 399 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,920 But ultimately, you know, Indiana made a high risk move by 400 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,840 hiring Kelvin Sampson and it was a, a super high cost that they 401 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,480 paid. And, and so that's the one where 402 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,000 you could argue like Indiana, they went for like, you know, 403 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,520 the, the jugular, if you will, to, to get that guy right guy in 404 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,640 there that's going to take them back to the promised land. 405 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,720 But they did that at a high risk. 406 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,160 And you know, 1 1/2 years into Samson's tenure, he was let go 407 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,760 and and really decimated the program for quite some time. 408 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,360 Yeah, that one. And yeah, I think you laid it 409 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:02,080 out really well there. And I guess a couple things I'll 410 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,200 add to that. That was one of those where he 411 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,320 wasn't the choice of the athletic director at the time. 412 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:13,040 And I look, it was weird because, you know, obviously if 413 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,160 you'd followed college basketball up to that point, 414 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,000 you, you you saw Oklahoma constantly being successful. 415 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,040 So it wasn't like a complete out of left field higher in terms of 416 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,000 the success. It was out of left field in 417 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,240 terms of the fact that for an IU program that didn't really have 418 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,760 a lot of ironclad cultural elements as you came through the 419 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,560 Davis era. But one of the things they kept 420 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,800 too was like, well, we're not going to cheat. 421 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,440 And then it'll go out and hire someone who was under a a show. 422 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,200 Cause at that point, where are you had to go to the NCAA and 423 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,840 say, well, here's why we're hiring this guy. 424 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,400 And there's going to be extra institutional controls talking 425 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,720 in real politic. If you're going to hire that 426 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,400 guy, you're committing to the idea that he's not. 427 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,720 Again, and it it kind of goes back to the Davis thing where 428 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,040 it's like, oh, we think that IU is going to get players because 429 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,400 it's IU. The idea that we won't need to 430 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,400 do those things that IU because it's IU. 431 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,520 And then he goes and does those things and then you get the self 432 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,120 reporting. And that's less because of the 433 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:14,320 cheating as much as it is about people's horror at the cultural 434 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,560 changes that they perceive as happening within the program 435 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,560 that they're uncomfortable with. And again, whether or not you 436 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,360 want to argue that that was a good justification for making a 437 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,800 change, it took what had started off as a really promising 438 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,480 coaching tenure and it immediately turned it in a 439 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,480 different direction. And not. 440 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:42,240 And you know, I think the, this is where, if you're Indiana, and 441 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,080 if you're thinking about Indiana from a, a hiring perspective and 442 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,600 where these things go wrong, it's like you hire this person 443 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,440 knowing that this was part of their portfolio. 444 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,720 Was there no managing of that? Like what I've always found 445 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,640 weird about that. And, and it kind of fits into 446 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,840 some of the other things that have happened with IU hires and 447 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,960 IU managing a basketball program over time is you can't just walk 448 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,040 in one day and say, I had no idea all these, all these 449 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,960 impermissible text messages were being sent or I had no idea that 450 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,840 there were players that weren't going to class. 451 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,640 Like, how do you not know that? Like, there's got to be some 452 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,560 level what, what's the thing that the NCAA like their their 453 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,000 their backup. Whenever they can't completely 454 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,920 prove something, they always go for lack of institutional 455 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,440 control, right? That's the that's the 456 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,880 nomenclature. IU has struggled with this. 457 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,600 And that is to some degree, what's made a lot of these hires 458 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,160 not great is that there hasn't been a lot of control. 459 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,600 For better or for worse. Coaches are just been kind of 460 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,560 allowed to come in, do whatever they want to do. 461 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,480 But then I use like, oh, no, we didn't mean that. 462 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,680 And it's like, well, that's that's a problem because then 463 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,680 you needed to really you set those expectations at the 464 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,280 beginning. And I think the Samson and Crean 465 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,200 eras, for very different reasons, kind of end up in that 466 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,920 same boat. Samson, obviously, because you 467 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,920 knew what you were getting coming into that you should have 468 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,600 been able to manage it. And with Crean, the sequence 469 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,600 after Samson gets fired is what about, you know, they named Dan 470 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,640 Dockage as the interim. That doesn't go well. 471 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,840 And then Docket as the interim starts, you know, I think he 472 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,760 kicked one or two players off the roster in anticipation that 473 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,120 he was going to get the full time job. 474 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,880 He doesn't. They hire Crean, Crean comes in 475 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,960 and then Greenspan gets fired because there's an additional 476 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,280 lack of institutional control penalty that's put on IU, which 477 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,320 means now Tom Crean, who just got hired and is yet to coach 478 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,000 game goes in and asks for another extension, which 479 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,800 essentially insulates him from oversight and supervision to any 480 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,040 meaningful degree. It feels like at times. 481 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,600 And it's like, well, it's his program. 482 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,440 We're going to rise or fall with Crean. 483 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,160 What was it about Crean as a hire? 484 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,000 Like, you know, how do you, how do you evaluate that in terms of 485 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,680 how it fits within this paradigm of, of not potentially being 486 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,960 like the right guy for that particular situation? 487 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,680 Yeah, and and he's the one that I argued like he's obviously 488 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,320 since Bob Knight had the most sustained success, if you want 489 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,640 to call it that, you know, had a couple big 10 titles, had 490 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,200 Indiana back at at number one for the majority of the 2012 491 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,440 thirteen season. I actually, I think you could 492 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,240 make the argument that Tom Crean was a fine hire to kind of 493 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,640 reclaim your your status back in college basketball is like, you 494 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,680 know, program again. And and we're not just cellar 495 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,840 dweller like they were the first few years. 496 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,480 I think where you got into trouble with Tom Crean was that 497 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:40,320 there were signs by year two or three that, you know, this this 498 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,320 maybe was wasn't something that was going to be like this, this 499 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,800 smooth ride, like you were going to have a lot of ups and downs 500 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,440 and it's going to be this roller coaster ride. 501 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,680 And you know, that was kind of his demeanor even as a coach and 502 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,800 you know, you you get some weird stories about those things. 503 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,040 So but I do think that there was a lot of fan buying and I always 504 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,200 go back to him too. When people talk about the fans. 505 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,560 I'm like, man, Indiana was bad. And the fans had I mean, like 506 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,240 they knew what was happening. Like they were, they were trying 507 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,760 to will, you know, Kyle Tabor and Daniel Moore and and those 508 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,160 guys to wins in Assembly Hall and, and still were having nice 509 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,800 crowds knowing that it was probably going to end up in a in 510 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,320 a lopsided loss. But that's a that's an aside 511 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,320 there. But yeah, with Crean, the 512 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,560 writing was kind of on the wall. You know, even after that like 513 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,320 Syracuse debacle in 2013, you know, it's, it started coming 514 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,800 out that the guys were worn down and they had these long 515 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,240 practices leading up to that game and and then the 516 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,920 recruiting, well, started drying up. 517 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,240 So for Crean, I don't necessarily think it's like 518 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,520 this, this got awful higher than Indiana made, but I also don't 519 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,640 think that like them letting him go or him not finding sustained 520 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,200 success. There was, you know, this 521 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,200 indictment on the program and then again it that you look at 522 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,720 what did he do post Indiana? He went to Georgia had I think 523 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,800 he was 20 games or more under 500 at Georgia. 524 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,320 And now he's out of college basketball as a coach. 525 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:13,160 And and so that's one where, I don't know, Indiana didn't make 526 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,720 their long term hire. I guess if they were trying to 527 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,840 find the guy that was going to come in and be this level 528 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,240 headed, you know, you raise the floor and your ceiling is 529 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,320 national titles like that wasn't Tom Crean. 530 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,680 And so by them letting him go, perhaps even too late in some 531 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,520 people's estimations, that that was wise on their part and it 532 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,080 wasn't some institutional failure that was leading to Tom 533 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,360 Crean's demise. Yeah, I go back and forth on it. 534 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,560 I mean, at the time, IU was in an interesting spot because 535 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,680 there weren't that. This is the one time I think 536 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,320 there is some credence to the idea that this job was imperiled 537 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,680 as far as being a top job because no one knew what the 538 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,120 NCAA was going to do. And in response to the Samson 539 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,040 violations, which again, had happened under a show 'cause 540 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,760 that Indiana had agreed to abide by. 541 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,000 And that was basically going back and saying oops. 542 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,080 And then you had the additional sanctions that were likely 543 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,360 coming and and then you had the way that like the messy way that 544 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:19,000 Samson was let go. So I can't blame Crane for 545 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,160 taking the job and I can't necessarily blame Indiana 546 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,200 because if you if you're a top coach at that time, that does 547 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,040 look like kind of a dumpster fire to be bringing people into. 548 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,000 What what is interesting though, when you go back and look at 549 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,240 Crane's career pre Indiana, I don't know under normal 550 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:41,000 circumstances if he's the guy that gets hired because he made 551 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,360 five tournaments in nine years at Marquette. 552 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,240 He had Dwyane Wade for the year that they went to the final Four 553 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,480 and the rest of the years he was they were out in round one or 554 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,840 Round 2. They, you know, in the last 555 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,360 three years leading into the Indiana job, they didn't get a 556 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,320 seed above 6th in the Big East. And and they were they were a 557 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,520 decent team in the Big East. But I remember watching those 558 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:03,760 games. I know you do as well. 559 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,240 Like that was it was a program that was clearly like a step 560 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,040 below the top powers in the Big East. 561 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,120 And it's we think about those things very differently now in 562 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,880 terms of like, well, what criteria do we need as a coach 563 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,840 for you to really step into that next level? 564 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,800 So I I always do wonder like, if not for those particular 565 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,840 circumstances, is that the guy they end up going with? 566 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,600 They had talked about him in O 6, but they didn't settle on 567 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:27,760 him. He wasn't even one of the two, 568 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,520 you know, final guys considered from what I understand. 569 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,680 So that that is an interesting aspect to this that I think is 570 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,560 worth bringing up. Yeah, what's what I always go 571 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,360 back to with Kareem is that Marquette fans were not sad to 572 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,960 see him go. And and that's that's never 573 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,800 good. Well, that's the other thing. 574 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,160 It's like his last, the last five years he was at Marquette, 575 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,120 they lost 12 games, 12 games, 11 games, 10 games and 10 games, 576 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,000 which, you know, when we hear certain candidates being talked 577 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,800 about now and I look at their records and I'm like that guy's 578 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,880 got a lot of 91011 lost seasons in a row. 579 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,760 That's normally a little bit of a red flag. 580 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,080 It may not be a complete red flag. 581 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,120 There may be mitigating circumstances, but that's that's 582 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,680 not necessarily what you're looking for. 583 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,960 And, and your point about Crean at Georgia, it kind of recasts 584 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,840 the whole thought process. A lot of people have have taken 585 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,720 to looking back at the Crean era and I understand why and being 586 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,600 like, why don't we just rehire Crean because we had our best 587 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,920 successes there. But this is actually to some 588 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,480 degree to me almost a proof that the IU job is really good that 589 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,760 he was able to bring the players he was able to bring in to make 590 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,120 that 2 year run so successful and even that 2016 team. 591 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,120 But it didn't always fit. It didn't always come together 592 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,160 out outside of that. And you look at what his 593 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,200 recruiting look like at Georgia, the recruits were there, but the 594 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,760 results never were. And you know, again, I think you 595 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,240 you really make a good point. This almost feels like the the 596 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,680 one moment where there was equilibrium or perhaps coaching 597 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,800 team were bringing both each other up, but there was a lack 598 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,560 of sustaining there. And that's ultimately what you 599 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,040 have to have in any big job, not just the Indiana job. 600 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,960 Absolutely. And and, and yeah, I mean, 57 601 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,040 and 89 I think was his Georgia tenure record. 602 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,000 I mean, he he had Anthony Edwards on his team. 603 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,920 Like he, you know, like he's mentioned he it wasn't like he 604 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,160 just wasn't able to get guys there. 605 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,440 But but not sustained, not any success, to be honest, not even 606 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,160 not sustained. But you know, Indiana moves on 607 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,200 and really they went out and got the hottest name out there, 608 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,680 Archie Miller. I think what the time was a year 609 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,240 or two removed from the Elite 8, he had the coaching pedigree. 610 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,680 You know, the brother of Sean Miller, their dad was a high 611 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,520 school basketball coach for numerous years. 612 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,480 And you know, really from the start of his tenure, like 613 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,000 literally the first game of his tenure, Indiana State goes out 614 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,320 and hits what seemed like 50 threes and blows the doors off 615 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,840 Indiana. And I mean, he really never 616 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,800 never got it going anywhere near a level of Indiana fans being 617 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,720 like, all right, here we go like now we go. 618 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,240 Now his third season probably was going to make the 619 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,800 tournament. I actually looked back at the 620 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,920 bracket matrix matrix history and I think they were probably 621 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,560 pretty squarely in they had they just they. 622 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,400 Were a double digit. They were a double digit seed, 623 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,160 but they were. I was doing brackets at that 624 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,200 point. They were definitely in. 625 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,720 Yeah. And and so again, I also think 626 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,040 that's why this is also on the side that Mike Woodson and 627 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,120 Archie Miller, maybe the vitriol wasn't quite as heavy for Archie 628 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,560 in year 3 and 4 as it was for Woodson because the program 629 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,760 trajectories from year after year three. 630 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,320 Archie actually looked like he was on his way up, whereas 631 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,120 Woodson already looked like he was on his way down. 632 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:39,960 It's another side, but I wanted to know. 633 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:46,200 So Indiana hires the hot name and Archie Miller and just never 634 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,440 got it going. You know, he his last game of 635 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,160 his Indiana tenure was at Lucas Oil Stadium. 636 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,240 He's booed out of the stadium, was given four years, never made 637 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:57,960 the NCAA tournament, never be Purdue. 638 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,200 We know all those those things and then leaves Indiana goes to 639 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,560 the field of 68 for a season or for a year and then head coach 640 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,280 at Rhode Island has not found a lot of success there. 641 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:14,000 This is his, his best season there, but it honestly, like you 642 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,960 go back and look at Rhode Island's history, it's, it's 643 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,760 similar to like a Dayton where like they've had a lot of guys 644 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,040 that have been able to have success there and he's not yet 645 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,440 been able to get it going there. And, and that's a a fan base 646 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,159 that does expect, you know, NTA tournaments and things like 647 00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:28,120 that. So I, I wouldn't be surprised to 648 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,199 find him on, on hot seat lists going into next season. 649 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,880 And and so again, that's another guy that Indiana hired couldn't, 650 00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,800 couldn't find with him any success. 651 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:46,159 And, you know, outside of his Indiana job, he he's yet to find 652 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:48,320 it again. It's and it's a tough one. 653 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,639 And this is where, again, you're right, like you go back to that 654 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:55,520 cycle going, you know, coming out of the 2017 season and yet 655 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,320 people were pointing at Archie Miller, they were pointing at 656 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,440 Greg Marshall. Where where are both of them 657 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,280 now? You know that I mean, so these 658 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,040 things do you do get caught up in them. 659 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,360 I I've always looked at this higher and you got to be fair in 660 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,720 the moment. You look at what Archie Miller 661 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:16,400 had done with Dayton, four straight tournaments and a lead 662 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,760 8 to start that run, two straight 7 seeds, which for an 663 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,480 Atlantic 10 team is really good now, now that said, Dayton's had 664 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,520 a, a, a pretty good amount of success. 665 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,200 It's not, I mean, you look at what Anthony Grant, the one year 666 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,880 that the, the season got lost due to COVID, Dayton was 667 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,200 probably going to be a one seed that year. 668 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,760 So that was only three years after Archie Miller had been 669 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,680 gone. And that does I, I remember 670 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,680 thinking at the time that year, it's like, well, maybe this 671 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,600 wasn't that impressive of a run that Archie Miller had at 672 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,440 Dayton. And I think the biggest problem 673 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,120 with Archie Miller it, it kind of felt like, let's say they 674 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,480 were two big issues, at least from my perspective, Tony, it's 675 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,560 like actually, you know what? No, I'm going to say 3-1. 676 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,080 He recruited in the way a lot of people wanted him to recruit and 677 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,040 that he went after Midwestern kids he went after. 678 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,000 Inside out approach. Inside out approach you can't 679 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,600 blame him for that, but it's like he bet on the wrong horse 680 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,440 every single time you know, he goes out and gets Rob Phenisee 681 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,040 Rob Phenisee really struggles to transition to the college game 682 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,240 and I think he'd make an argument never really gets there 683 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:26,440 and and even when he transferred away he still struggled. 684 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,680 He goes out and gets Demisi Anderson again, you know, and 685 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:32,600 they had a chance that at a more prominent player who would 686 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,360 become a more prominent player who went to a different 687 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,960 institution. But it's almost like they got 688 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,240 they got impatient for that guy. So they go get Demizzy Anderson, 689 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,200 who never really gets himself acclimated to playing at the 690 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:45,720 college level. They had some bad luck. 691 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,000 Jerome Hunter was supposed to be a a key piece. 692 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,800 He's still playing in college basketball because he was 693 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,880 injured so often. He's had such terrible injury 694 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,200 luck, you know, and any guys like Jake Forrester and you 695 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,320 know, other players like that, like never really rose beyond 696 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:02,800 sometimes they never even got off the bench or they rarely 697 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,160 did. That was one issue. 698 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:09,000 Second, like his style of play, you you can't afford to play the 699 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,840 way that you play if you're a just an absolute lockdown 700 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,120 defensive team and they never got to that point. 701 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,560 You know, they were probably never going to be that beautiful 702 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,920 of an offensive team under Archie Miller, but the style of 703 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,320 play just never looked like it transitioned up effectively. 704 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,920 And then the third, he just never did a great job of 705 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,400 interfacing with fans. And this is with a similar 706 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,920 complaint that you could say about the latter years of Tom 707 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,480 Crean, where it's like that, you know, IU, as with most big 708 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,480 programs, there's some kind of connection between the fan base 709 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,280 and the coach. Archie never really got that 710 00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,400 going. That Indiana State loss 711 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,320 certainly damaged the relationship early. 712 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,360 The Fort Wayne loss that happened later on that same year 713 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,320 by 20 at home didn't help either. 714 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,960 But even you can overcome those things. 715 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,880 But his personality was so kind of anti fame in a lot of ways. 716 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,920 It made it hard to feel like this was the guy that should 717 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,680 have been coaching. And then the actual results did 718 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,000 nothing to help him there either. 719 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,720 So it was like it just as much as it looked like a great idea 720 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:12,120 on paper going in, it just never synced up with reality. 721 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,320 It did not, and I'm looking back at Archie's tenure as a head 722 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:23,240 coach and honestly his for his first three seasons as a a 723 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:25,680 college basketball head coach, we're his best three seasons 724 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:31,160 offensively. He was #29 #28 #37 in terms of 725 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,600 adjusted offensive efficiency in the country at Dayton. 726 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,640 His time at Indiana, adjusted offensive efficiency was 727 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,040 92826570. Not great, not where you want to 728 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,120 be. Unfortunately. 729 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,520 It's where Indiana has been for for quite some time. 730 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,640 But but yeah, so Archie doesn't work out. 731 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,280 Indiana makes the move to fire him after Four Seasons. 732 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,560 It was it was very evident that's what Indiana was going to 733 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,520 do by the end of of that fourth season. 734 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:01,520 And so, you know, that leads us to 2021 where obviously there's 735 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,240 a lot of Brad Stevens buzz that was was going on. 736 00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,880 Who knows how real or not that was, But you know, there's a lot 737 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,600 of buzz going on there. All the sudden once that was 738 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:18,160 gone, really the names that we heard were Porter Mosier, Mike 739 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,320 Woodson, Calvert Cheney. I remember was was talked about 740 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,240 as somebody that may be wanting to step into to that role and 741 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:26,840 and was getting real consideration. 742 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,880 I don't I don't really remember many others that were were true 743 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,320 in consideration names. I don't know if you do, Galen. 744 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,120 I mean, the thing about that search was it was kind of a 745 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,960 weird search in a lot of ways because it was still in the 746 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,560 middle of the pandemic. You know, it was it was, it 747 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,120 wasn't square in the middle of it. 748 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,160 You're talking about, you know, essentially March 21, like 749 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,480 vaccines were just rolling out at that point, you know, so I 750 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,400 don't remember being quite as engaged. 751 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,440 You know, there were the big names that were bandied about, 752 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,320 but it did feel like I you would coalesce around a couple of 753 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,000 names early. But it also felt like Indiana 754 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:06,800 like had a direction they were going. 755 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,760 That direction ended up being Mike Woodson. 756 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,480 And you know, there I remember our reaction was like. 757 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,760 OK, there must be something we don't know here. 758 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,040 And most people, and we, and this was talked about in media 759 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,360 as well, a lot of people were very skeptical of that being the 760 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,400 right hire. And that was a weird one because 761 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,280 it, it did like Woodson. The if, if you were going to 762 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,040 make an argument in favor of the the Woodson hire, it wasn't, oh, 763 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,920 the basketball coaching at the college level. 764 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,440 This is what it needs to be because there was no real 765 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,120 argument in favor of that. But there was the argument that 766 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,880 this guy understands Indiana basketball, that this guy 767 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,360 understands the fans of Indiana basketball, understands the 768 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,720 expectations, understands that, you know, we need to have all 769 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:52,280 the alums, you know, the basketball alums and everybody 770 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,880 else kind of point in the same direction. 771 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,240 And I actually think to some degree, you know, if I you won 772 00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,120 the, the, the, the press conference or won the higher 773 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,840 amongst the fans, it was really on the basis of that and the 774 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,040 idea that, well, maybe these skills are transferable in terms 775 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,440 of having coached at the, the pro level versus here. 776 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,240 And the first two years, they went to the tournament two years 777 00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:20,280 in a row and, and it looked like there was kind of a trajectory 778 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,280 upward. And so it's interesting because 779 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,000 you know, I'll be the first to say, like I thought at the 780 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,800 beginning of the third season, like, OK, great. 781 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,360 You know, the trace Jackson Davis is gone. 782 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,520 But I use kind of moving in this particular direction. 783 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,760 I think I understand what the what the plan and the identity 784 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,240 is. It's just disappointing because 785 00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:38,880 there were warning signs and, and we've heard about some of 786 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,680 them and I'm sure we'll hear about some more ex post facto. 787 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,000 But a lot of what Indiana was accomplishing was probably under 788 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,160 accomplishing based upon the talent that was assembled and 789 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:50,480 what you could have been doing with it. 790 00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:54,080 And then once that was gone, things started to fall off 791 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,040 pretty quickly. Yes, very quickly. 792 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,920 And, you know, I I think it's been talked about a lot now 793 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,480 that, you know, posts Trace Jackson Davis Indiana hasn't 794 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,840 beaten a ranked team. And I think we're we're seeing 795 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,680 how, you know, vastly important Trace Jackson Davis was to the 796 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,040 Indiana basketball program in terms of success. 797 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:19,680 But yeah, it's what sold me on the Mike Woodson higher was 798 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,640 bringing Thadmata aboard, bringing Dane Fife aboard. 799 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,280 I was like, all right, they're they're kind of insulating 800 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,760 themselves with some guys that understand college basketball. 801 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,280 They're going to get him up to speed and and so that, you know, 802 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,040 he can focus on kind of the XS and OS and figuring out 803 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,600 recruiting and the rules of the game and all that. 804 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,680 And then we'll go from there. You know, after year one, 805 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,200 Thadmata obviously was outgoing to be the head coach of Butler. 806 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,080 He fired Dane Fife and you know, he just hired his director of 807 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,400 basketball OPS. That actually came from the 808 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,960 Archie tenure and Brian Walsh. And so it was kind of like, OK, 809 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:59,800 you know, that's interesting approach here, but, you know, 810 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,360 we'll see what happens. And then year 2, you know, 811 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,640 they're they're a protected seed in the NCAA tournament. 812 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,840 So the trajectory of the program is in a much better spot. 813 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,520 So you're like, all right, you know, here we go. 814 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,920 And then, you know, last year it it just the wheels fell off and, 815 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,040 and recruiting got dry. Story started coming out about 816 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,040 skipping recruiting weekends and all that stuff. 817 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,840 And, and that's not uncommon for, you know, as things go 818 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,240 South, more and more comes out negatively. 819 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,920 And you know, then this season, as we know, has been pretty much 820 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:34,480 an unmitigated disaster in terms of of the the talent and you 821 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,520 know, the NIL investment. That's the one thing I've always 822 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,360 gone back to is that NIL is so important. 823 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:45,280 And Indiana has has really ponied up in that regard and in 824 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,040 the results of no been nowhere near, you know, the the return 825 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,680 on investment, it has been very poor. 826 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,040 So, Mike, you know, nobody's going to be beating down Mike 827 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,000 Woodson's door to go coach a college basketball program after 828 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,320 this is over. And that's kind of was the crux 829 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,320 of my piece. And they kind of put a bow on 830 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,760 that piece was again, it's another coach Indiana hired 831 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,520 didn't have sustained, sustained success and moving forward as a 832 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,360 basketball coach is likely not going to go lead some other 833 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,280 college basketball program to the promised land. 834 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,800 Yeah. I mean, so again, I, I think you 835 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,200 kind of look back at each of these and I guess the point in 836 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,960 just talking about all of it is I think it's important to 837 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,480 remember like what each of the circumstances were. 838 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,040 At no point do I look at any of those situations and say there 839 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,800 was a structural issue with IU that led to this coach being 840 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,920 unsuccessful. You know, each of them was 841 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,440 unsuccessful, I think for their own reasons. 842 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,600 Mike Davis was unsuccessful because he just fundamentally he 843 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,920 hadn't been a head coach at any level at that point, if I'm not 844 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,560 mistaken. He had really no idea how to run 845 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,640 the program and there weren't a lot of guardrails around to make 846 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,280 sure that he understood the program. 847 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,480 Calvin Sampson I, I still believe like thought what he was 848 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,200 doing was blessed by the people above them and then found out 849 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,080 one day that it wasn't. That's the one I think you could 850 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,480 maybe highlight. But then it becomes a larger 851 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,520 question of, well, is it a are you, are you doing a bad thing? 852 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,280 If you're giving the coach enough rope to to do whatever? 853 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,000 It's more the question of then we're going to change our minds 854 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,600 halfway through that becomes an issue. 855 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,640 And yes, there were some other things that were problematic 856 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,400 within that mix that shouldn't be shouldn't be, you know, slept 857 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,200 on. But again, that's the one where 858 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,000 I'm like, there needed to be more oversight here. 859 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,840 But all those people essentially got fired. 860 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,160 So, you know, I think Indiana self corrected to some degree in 861 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,280 that mix. And then with Crane, I think you 862 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,240 hit the nail on the head like it it was an OK hire on its on its 863 00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,080 merits. And he was a guy who who wanted 864 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,440 to be here. But it also felt like this one 865 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,360 was a situation where the issue was Indiana almost gave him too 866 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,480 much runway down the end of things when it wasn't working, 867 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,400 rather than say, Hey, we need to move in a different direction. 868 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,360 There was this I remember there was that that Fred Glass article 869 00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:01,200 or that interview was like, I'm bullish on Tom Crean. 870 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,160 It's like, what does that mean exactly, Fred? 871 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,640 It almost kind of felt like, well, we hope things turn around 872 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,320 and get better. And as we've learned, you know, 873 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,800 hope is not a strategy. But you know, with him, with 874 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,920 Archie Miller, with Mike Woodson, I think all three of 875 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,880 those coaches, to me, I just, I don't look at those things and 876 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,600 fundamentally say there's a structural problem with IU or a 877 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,480 problem with the fans. The fans weren't the problem 878 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,280 with any of those three coaches. That was the lack of performance 879 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,160 and we're not talking about, well, gosh, we made the 880 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:34,560 tournament eight years in a row, but we didn't make it past the 881 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,360 Sweet 16 or even into the Sweet 16 and we fired a guy. 882 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,800 It's like, well, we didn't make the NCAA tournament for five 883 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,960 years or four years. And and it's that's that's where 884 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,200 I think this this whole argument kind of gets off the rails that 885 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:53,000 I use somehow is the problem. We, and this is I guess the last 886 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,640 thing I'll say, Tony, like we've seen, for instance, like you 887 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,040 know, Nate Oates goes into Alabama, which is not a 888 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,480 historical basketball power. Prior to Nate Oates getting 889 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,800 there, they had been to the tournament one time in the 890 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,440 previous eight seasons and they had some pretty good, you know, 891 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,160 that Anthony Grant, who we've seen as a pretty good coach at 892 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,120 the Dayton level, they had Avery Johnson, which was a really 893 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,880 questionable hire. And then Nate Oates comes in and 894 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,320 after one year of getting things pointed in the right direction, 895 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,800 he's made four straight tournaments, including three 896 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,280 sixteens and a Final Four. You know, look at Auburn with 897 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,640 Bruce Pearl. Bruce Pearl's a great coach, but 898 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,480 that's, I mean, Auburn's not exactly a a great program. 899 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,240 It took Bruce Pearl four years to get them into the tournament, 900 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:38,640 but once he did, they've pretty much been rolling since then. 901 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,840 You know, Chris Beard, we've talked about a Texas Tech took a 902 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,760 program that had struggled to get into the tournament since 903 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,280 Knight had left. But my point is, like all these 904 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,720 other places, it's not that hard if you're a good coach to go in 905 00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:56,160 and just start regularly making the tournament IU. 906 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,160 The idea that IU is so difficult that nobody can come in and do 907 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,240 that seems questionable. The, the much simpler answer is, 908 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,120 well, they're probably just hiring people who for one reason 909 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,880 or another are struggling to consistently do these things. 910 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,920 And that's that's where I guess the flaw lies. 911 00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,600 And there has to be a clearer set of expectations and 912 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,000 understanding of what you need to hire in a college basketball 913 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,920 coach today in order to be successful. 914 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,520 And so I guess that's the one structural issue I'll point out 915 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,880 is the vetting and evaluation process up to this point just 916 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,960 hasn't been what it's needed to be for a program of I use 917 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,680 caliber. Yeah, the only time I've ever 918 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,600 heard of like things happening, happening institutionally that 919 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,160 have made me be like, huh, it's usually during hiring processes. 920 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:47,000 And so I think that that piece of it is, is important from all 921 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,440 indications I hear that, you know, Scott Dolson has full 922 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,160 control over this hiring process. 923 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,040 It's going to be he and Pam Whitten show, which I think is a 924 00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,240 good thing. And the one piece I'll go back 925 00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:03,040 to to kind of talk about your point of, you know, Alabama 926 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:04,600 basketball and Auburn basketball. 927 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,600 And if if you can win there with the right leader, like then, you 928 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,880 know, why can't you win at Indiana? 929 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,160 All you have to do is look across the parking lot of 17th 930 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:19,120 St. to see how important the head man of a program is. 931 00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,440 And, and, and Indiana football, if you were going to talk about 932 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,840 it's too hard to win at an institution, you would look at 933 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,960 Indiana football as kind of the, the tell tale of like that is a 934 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,640 sports program that is destined for failure for several 935 00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:38,200 different reasons. And nobody can win there. 936 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,720 And that's a hard job. And their resources aren't what 937 00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:42,520 they should be, whatever the case may be. 938 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,560 Well, guess what? They get a top tier coach in 939 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,720 there in one year. They're in the College Football 940 00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:49,920 Playoff. All the sudden the resources are 941 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,600 pouring in. And so, you know, when you talk 942 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:57,320 about institutional things, if Indiana football can get things 943 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,200 flipped and they get it flipped because they get the right guy 944 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,480 at the top of the program, then Indiana basketball certainly can 945 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,520 do the same. And and it's a lot easier to 946 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,960 flip a roster in basketball than it is in football. 947 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,760 So to me that that kind of all of its weight when you start 948 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,680 talking about institutionally, when you can literally just look 949 00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,680 over at Memorial Stadium and see what having the right guy in 950 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,960 charge can do for a program. Yeah, no, it's true. 951 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,800 I mean. That's, that's going to be the 952 00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,680 fascinating thing. And that's where my hope is. 953 00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,280 And, and look, we'll see how the end of the Woodson era happens. 954 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,800 I think that Woodson's going to, I don't know that this is 955 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,520 necessarily going to be a clean break from a, a, a rhetoric 956 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:38,880 perspective. I think there's going to be a 957 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,880 lot of hurt feelings, but my hope is that IU can navigate 958 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,080 that while simultaneously really, really focusing on the 959 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,000 kind of traits needed to run a top level basketball program at 960 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:50,120 this time. And this is actually, it's 961 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,760 funny, like you go back to the early 70s when IU was in a 962 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,600 similar malaise where they had gone through a decade plus with 963 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,720 barely making the tournament, often times not being in the in 964 00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:03,000 the Big 10 race. Like they went out and tried to 965 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,440 figure out like, what are the criteria? 966 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,040 We need to hire a coach who can lift us out of this. 967 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,920 And they ended up settling on a guy that ended up doing a pretty 968 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:11,480 good job of that for a long time. 969 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,240 And Bob Knight, when there were a lot of other candidates out 970 00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:16,280 there that really would have liked the job or might have made 971 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,720 sense that that didn't match those criteria. 972 00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:22,800 So it's it's an imperfect science. 973 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,040 And this is not this whole podcast was not necessarily 974 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,200 intended to be an indictment on people that have run the hiring 975 00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,920 processes or been involved. It's a tough business. 976 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,200 You can make bad hires without it necessarily being anybody's 977 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,720 fault because as I think we saw with Archie Miller, any program 978 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:39,800 in the country and I use position would have done the 979 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,040 same thing and hired him and it didn't work out. 980 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,760 Was it foreseeable? I don't necessarily know. 981 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,080 I wasn't the one interviewing him. 982 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,160 He certainly resonated with a lot of people. 983 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,760 So it's easy to kind of get LED down a path where you think 984 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,920 you're doing what's going to be best and it doesn't always work 985 00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:58,960 out that way. And so that's that's going to be 986 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,440 a key thing watching, worth watching moving forward is, you 987 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,880 know, what do you think the criteria are that Scott Dolson 988 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,760 really thinks are important for this job because he clearly 989 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,960 understood what was needed on the football side. 990 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,840 You hope that that carries over on the basketball side and you 991 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,080 hope that there's a centrality of vision rather than a bunch of 992 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,160 different voices coming in with their own agendas, pushing 993 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,120 particular candidates because they happen to like them or they 994 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,520 have a personal or prior coaching relationship with them 995 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,640 or what not. Yeah, and and also. 996 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,720 What is that timeline of when you should expect success and 997 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,080 in? I think that's something else 998 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,320 too, is like in today's day and age, like it used to be like you 999 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,160 need 4 years to get your guys in before you can really figure out 1000 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,360 what somebody's capable of doing. 1001 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,240 Well, obviously that's all completely flipped on its head. 1002 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,520 So to me, I'm interested too is it's like you get somebody in 1003 00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,200 there and within two years, you know, and you're like, all 1004 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,720 right, next. Or does that make you, you know, 1005 00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:55,920 institutionally inept and and you're never going to get a 1006 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,720 coach in there, which is probably there's probably 1007 00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:00,280 something to that if you're firing within two years. 1008 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,680 But you know, that's that's an interesting piece to all of this 1009 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:05,640 with me too. Like I think back to the Pacers, 1010 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:10,200 they they fire or they fired. God, I can't. 1011 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,720 Nate McMillan, they hired Nate Jorkrin, he's horrible. 1012 00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:15,800 One year they let him go. Well, this is all kind of 1013 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,440 professional sports now where in professional sports you see 1014 00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,040 those hirings and firings happen much quicker. 1015 00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,960 Like is, is that where a program like Indiana goes to now is 1016 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,520 where it's like if you don't have success pretty close pretty 1017 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,520 soon, like we're going to send you a package. 1018 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:31,400 Well, yeah. And I think, you know, to kind 1019 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:31,920 of wrap. It up. 1020 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,400 I think that's, that is a really important key and it's less 1021 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,600 about are you getting immediate results. 1022 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,760 I think it's more about is this person operating in a way that 1023 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:44,920 we can see is going to work culturally and is it pointing in 1024 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,680 the right direction. And, and I don't know that 1025 00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:51,680 that's necessarily been a paramount thing for Indiana in 1026 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,200 the past, but it should because Scott and I have talked about 1027 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,200 this on the main show a bunch. You know, it's like North 1028 00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:00,320 Carolina when they hired Matt Doherty, I think they could tell 1029 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,400 pretty quickly, even though we had a really good first season, 1030 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,320 they could tell that that was going the wrong direction. 1031 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,840 And he had a bad second year. But even with that rebound in 1032 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,680 the third year, it was not working. 1033 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:11,120 They went out and got Roy Williams. 1034 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:13,640 They set out that on that pathway, Kentucky with Billy 1035 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:20,160 Gillespie was the same thing. And you were Wyatt Ryan Walters 1036 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,720 is a really great point and look, you know it. 1037 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,440 What I always find fascinating is sometimes these are dice 1038 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,320 rolls that you take on a hunch. I, and I think, you know, 1039 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,440 people, it was fascinating the reaction to my little mini pod 1040 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,320 yesterday about Matt Painter being the first guy that I, you 1041 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,120 should offer. The one thing I'll say about 1042 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,160 Painter that I find fascinating about his, his career is that if 1043 00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,880 you go back and, and look at his trajectory, he was a, he was a 1044 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:50,120 Bruce Weber assistant. He was on Bruce Weber's staff. 1045 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,640 He takes the Southern Illinois job. 1046 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,120 So he does one year at Southern Illinois where, you know, he's 1047 00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,840 got Bruce Weber's team. And that was Bruce Weber's team 1048 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,520 that had been to multiple NCAA tournaments in a row. 1049 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,600 You know, in in 2002, they made the Sweet 16. 1050 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,280 You know, he has one good season where he gets them to the NCAA 1051 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,080 Tournament. And then Purdue, who's desperate 1052 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,800 at this point because Jean Cady's career has fallen off the 1053 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,800 Cliff, is like, we're going to hire Matt Painter at, what, 34 1054 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,800 years old as our coach in waiting? 1055 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,560 He'd been a head coach for exactly one season with somebody 1056 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,960 else's team. He sits on the bench for a year, 1057 00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:32,120 and then they just launch him the next year as the head coach. 1058 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,280 I mean, it's worked. And they deserve a lot of credit 1059 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,840 for taking the leap. And I think they saw something 1060 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,200 in Painter where they were like, he understands the culture and 1061 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:41,880 we're just carrying that culture over. 1062 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,040 It's a little different than IU because you're going to have to 1063 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,880 build culture from scratch basically because of all these 1064 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,040 changes over the last 25 years. But that pain or higher could 1065 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,800 have gone really wrong. And I think, you know, Purdue 1066 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,080 making that higher now everybody would look at them and say, what 1067 00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:58,960 on earth are you doing? There's no way that this is 1068 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:00,800 going to work. So there is a certain element of 1069 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,600 luck in this, I guess is the point that I'm trying to get 1070 00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,800 across. Yeah, I think that was. 1071 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:09,200 That was similar to what Indiana attempted this past time around 1072 00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,400 was that was pretty unorthodox higher and a lot of people were 1073 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:13,880 asking what on earth are you doing? 1074 00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:17,440 Unfortunately, that wasn't our Matt Painter hire. 1075 00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,040 Not so anyway. A lot more to talk about as 1076 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,400 we'll move forward. Tony, go check Tony's piece out 1077 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,720 on assembly call. And obviously, we will be 1078 00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,280 checking in with Tony regularly throughout the course of this 1079 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:31,960 entire process. Tony, thank you for joining me. 1080 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,600 Always a pleasure. Thanks for joining us on Crimson 1081 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,040 Cast. Folks, we will catch you on the 1082 00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,160 flip side, more podcast action later on this week and Indiana 1083 00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,440 playing as you can state tonight on Peacock. 1084 00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,600 So godspeed with that. We'll catch you folks on the 1085 00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,320 flip side. Stay never gone to bring back. 1086 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:50,600 Bless So everybody.