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Welcome back to Crimson Cask ale, and klaviyo joining you
here. It's Saturday, the 13th of
August 1. This podcast is being recorded.
I hope you folks are all having a good start.
Two year August. We're almost halfway done with
it and we've got to talk IU football.
Football is coming up here in less than a month.
The start of the season. Right.
At the beginning of September is the Indiana Hoosiers.
Take on the Illinois. Fighting Illini in the real
Memorial Stadium on the Friday before Labor Day, and we're
going to be doing what we normally do to start off
football season talking with a bunch of folks in media across
the board getting perspectives on My you football, as we go
into this upcoming season with the strengths and weaknesses are
what to look for. What to be concerned about
coming off of what was frankly, a disastrous two and ten
campaign for a program that had built a pretty decent amount of
momentum up in the four years prior to that.
So we're going to talk to Zach. Osterman coming up here on this
show. Zach of course from the Indy
star we've talked with in many times.
If you're in IU football or basketball fan demand, you
aren't reading Zack, I'd question what you're doing, but
yeah, Zack's got a lot of interesting.
Dibs. We're going to talk, I think
mostly about the past year and the past couple of years and the
overall attitude towards Tom Allen and the program.
Right now, try to get a sense of where everybody's at, whether
those feelings are fair and perhaps how we should be
thinking about this upcoming season before we get to that.
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entirety of college sports. We'll go ahead and get to the
interview here in a second. Just a couple of programming
notes before we get to that a reminder, that it Susan cast, we
generally have a pattern by which, we cover the week for
football and that's the pattern will be settling into once we
get through a lot of these initial interviews, talking
about, you know, the, the preseason stuff here.
Once we get into the season, you'll get a preview podcast
that normally comes out on Thursday or Friday leading into
a football week. And then you'll get a recap
show, that'll pop up on Sunday. We might add another show to the
mix in the go. Oh, she ations with a couple of
people that I think you'd like to hear from as we get a little
bit closer to that. So, keep your ears open as we
will have some potentially new content coming this year.
And then, of course the whole calendar gets blown up as soon
as basketballs underway is, we're still doing our football
stuff but we're also doing basketball.
So looking forward to speaking with you, folks once again
throughout the course of this upcoming season and if you've
ever got comments questions anything about IU sports or
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G c. Always love hearing from you
folks, and you've always got some great thoughts and insights
and we try to work those into the shows as much as we possibly
can. We'll go and get to our
interview. With Zach Osborne coming up here
after that, thanks for listening, folks, and as we move
into this upcoming season, I'm looking forward to seeing how it
all unfolds, it's always a big mystery.
Tree with IU football. You never quite know what.
You're going to get and Zach. Osterman, joining us again from
the Indy star IU Insider for football and basketball.
And it's that time of year again, Zach as we are just a few
weeks away from the start of the football season.
How are you doing? I'm good.
I'm resting as best I can. How about you?
Same, you know, the Calm before the storm.
Although, in my role here, the storm pretty much started two
weeks ago, so not much calm at this stage.
You football its back and, you know, we've had fall Camp going
here for a little bit. Obviously, some observations,
you know, that you've been able to gather through media
availability and things like that, which we'll talk about in
a minute. But you and I were talking last
week at some point and, you know, you had made some kind of
a, an observation about the mentality or the kind of the
mental state of some IU football fans coming into this year.
And so we wanted to maybe start off and talk about That, you
know, the the IU football did not have a great year last year.
It was the worst year since the first year of the Kevin Wilson
era. Both, I think, in terms of
record and an overall sentiment towards the team, and they come
into this year with, you know, I think maybe some causes for
optimism but a lot of people really seem like they're either
very out on the team already or just your very much taking a
wait-and-see approach. You know what's Overall, take
on. Where are you football?
Fans are right now and how this program is being evaluated in
the eyes of those folks? Yeah, I think.
What I said to somebody recently, I said Indiana
football fans are not unfamiliar with being disappointed, you
know. It that is, that's not the issue
here. It's the depth of the
disappointment from last season. It's the extent to which they
were encouraged to get their hopes up, you know, effectively.
And do you know it it it just completely kind of collapsed on
them and so I think that's why it feels like there is a maybe a
for lack of a better term 8, a more intense frustration or a
more intense sort of Distrust is probably the best word I can.
I get like it, you know, it like I said, ìyou, football fans are
not unfamiliar with disappointment.
They're not unfamiliar with under performance.
They're not unfamiliar with, you know, just likely being, you
know, being bad, sometimes it's that they were rightly sort of
encouraged to get their hopes up last season.
And then, you know, the program that kind of encourage those
hopes just sort of Lapsed in on itself and so at least for last
season so I understand very much where they're coming from and I
think just would be the interesting sort of conversation
or the interesting sort of you know tug-of-war that exists here
is really to me, sort of about kind of nature versus nurture
with this. This, this specific team not
this program but this specific Team in this specific season, I
think it's going to be interesting to kind of watch out
what unfolds and I'm very sort of curious, just kind of like
how the team handles it. But then, of course, that's the
biggest part of it but also just sort of where the fan base coats
depending on, where the season goes because at the same time I
you know what is sort of sparked this.
This thread in my own mind is that I still don't think this is
a terrible team. I don't think it's going to
finish second in the big Denise, like it did in 2020, but I still
don't think this is a bad team. It's an interesting question
because I'm curious. Why you don't feel that?
It's a bad team, not that I disagree with that assumption.
And I've perhaps first of all, like, when you say, I don't
think this is a bad team. What do you mean?
That like, where, where do you think this team is likely to
land from a results perspective? The thing is, it's, it's hard
for me to say and normally understandably.
You would look at a season like this and you would say, well
they went to in 10 last year. You know, they didn't sign the
number to recruiting class in the country.
You know, it did probably got some good transfers but nobody
that feels just overwhelmingly. Dominant teams like that.
Don't usually get better. I think the the my starting
position though is that I don't think Indiana was as bad last
season as its record or at least I think it was like a this way.
It was, as bad as its performance and its record
reflected its performance. I think it was a more talented
roster than that, that for a variety of reasons, could not
arrest. Its dip, I don't think every
problems been solved but I also just, you know, the the sort of
sentiment of 20/20 was just the aberration last year, is the
norm doesn't really explain away the six years before that.
And six years is a long time. Like that's, you know, from for
so long. People like you and me, when we
watched Indiana, finished between two and four wins, and,
you know, maybe the highlight of the season was beating Purdue.
And, you know, that half the games on their schedule were
heavy heavy defeats and they were never competitive the
conversations. We would have asked these
questions. Actions.
Like, how do you build winning habits?
You know, how do you, how do you, how do you build a, you
know, how do you learn how to win?
That's, that's a thing. Surprise.
Coaches use a lot but like the reason they use it is because
that's a thing. This program spent the best part
of a decade, learning how to win and and saw the fruits of that
four bowls. And six years was not a was not
a mirage. The question is, when I say it's
nature versus nurture, the roster you have here, still has
all big 10 level performers on. It still has one or two
All-American level performers on.
It has been bolstered by I think a few Savvy transverse and a
really good-looking freshman class.
I don't think it's going to be the best freshman class in
history, the Big Ten but I think there's going to be some players
there that contribute right away and meaningfully This roster
this program has seen seen this sort of thing before, once the
rug gets pulled out that's it and it's just a slow.
Walk toward the inevitable. The inevitability of this is
going to, you know this is all going to fail and it'll start
over this roster hasn't though. None of these players had been
through what I think. Fans would call a quote-unquote
typical IU football season. Same old IU football season, At
any point in their careers. And so that's where I get back
to this idea of nature versus nurture like yours at the nature
of the biz, the nature of the program.
Going to win out here. Is that what we saw last year
was that IU football to some extent is always just going to
be I youth football. And there may be brief, you
know, brief Peaks. But the valleys will always be
just over the hill. And I'm not saying I used to be
good forever. Just if they, like if I you go
six and six is here, I'm not saying everything is solved and
I is going to be fine forever. But the nurture is that this
roster I had never known a season like that and it had
developed a lot of those. Those elusive habits that
coaches, always talk about that programs, like this really
struggle with and that's, that's kind of the, that is the push
and pull that I see. And I'm just, I guess I'm not, I
would not call myself, I mean, I don't care if they win or lose,
that's not my job, but I would certainly not classify my
Outlook on this season. As overly optimistic in terms
of, you know, if you said look, what do you think the record
will be or how successful season do you think it will be?
But I do think I do think I am a lot more Curious than most
people about IU football, and I'm surprised at maybe the lack
of curiosity, maybe a certain lack of trust and Tom Allen.
Certain lack of trust in these players that it feels like was
built over three or four years but then lost in one and that's
that's that's the Curiosity. I see well I think it might be
helpful since we're talking about the psyche of the fans to
some degree here in relation to last year, you talked about the
you know, the inherent talent that was on that roster and how
they weren't able to pull themselves out of the slide.
So, what do you think happened? Last year?
I mean, I think it's important to Remind people that this like
the entire build up from the moment that the Outback Bowl
ended essentially all the way through to, when the ball got
kicked in Iowa City, at the beginning of September there
seemed to be this constant build up, not just from outside
sources. But even inside that, this was
going to be a really good team that this was going to be a team
that was going to contend, you know, at least within the
confines of the top 25 and it just never Got going.
I mean you could make an argument that they maybe even
over achieved it to and 10. I mean, it could have easily
lost the Western Kentucky game that they did win and for a team
that and I think you make some good points like it.
The last four seasons the program and particularly the
previous two seasons had performed so well, had one types
of games and add the types of performances that you just
hadn't seen traditionally out of OU football for the bottom to
fall out. The way that it did last year,
was I think hard for a lot of fans to get their heads.
So, what do you think were the core elements that led to that
happening? Well, I think for most and
people don't like it when you bring up injuries, but I think
that it's important to contextualize it, Indiana
thought it had A superstar quarterback and it built
everything around that and Michael penix was never that
player and that's ultimately at least partly on a coaching staff
that they've got to look around. They needed to be able to see
that now seeing it and being able to do anything meaningful
about, it are two different things.
But you know, We went into last season, not unfairly saying when
he things like whinnies on Michael penix is the biggest
offensive Difference Maker in the Big Ten think that wasn't
unfair and we'd also seen Michael penix come back from
major injuries and look fine once healthy.
So it wasn't unfair to just sort of presume that he'd be.
All right from the ACL tear as well.
He was really bad and a lot of that probably was the injury and
maybe it's too many injuries. Maybe he was back too soon.
Maybe this one was just a little bit more serious than the others
but he was he just he never other than maybe that Western
Kentucky game. He never looked anything like
The Michael penix that had been so important for Indiana in 2019
and 2020. For any consistent length of
time is offensive line, did not help him and that is a position
group that frankly, I think not that this is ever not completely
taste. But like, her completely not the
case. But, you know, if you're talking
about, like, if, if I told you right now Indiana's offensive
line group would be a full letter grade better than it was
last year. I think You know, we'd be better
off offensively for that. Then like if you said one
position group can be a full letter grade better than it was
a year ago on offense, just like that.
Like just, just just kick off. That's your starting point.
Which one would be most beneficial for Indiana.
It would be that offensive line again.
I think injuries hurt by the end of the season.
You know, a program that had For scholarship quarterbacks in its
you know it's in its roster charting on Signing Day 2021 had
one healthy one who was clearly not ready for you know, to be a
50-60 snap again quarterback in the Big Ten as a true freshman,
which is there's nothing wrong with that and obviously he's now
playing wide receiver. You had, you know, some of your
biggest, the players that felt like your biggest offensive play
makers outside the one or two, that were really disappointing,
like a David Ellis where DJ Matthews heard all year on
defense, where it felt like, well, maybe Indiana's just going
to have to try and stiffen up defensively and just find a way
that was the area that I mean, like there were points were
Indiana's, basically its entire defensive secondary was either
injured or playing injured. We've since found out things
like dealing with. Played back after the season
with cracked ribs, but he didn't come out because he felt like he
couldn't because so many other guys were already hurt.
I think. You know, that, I mean, again
people only hear this schedule didn't help.
The, it was turned out to be a remote, was it that I think it
was 10 of their 12 opponents went to bowl games.
I think that's what what it turned out in the end.
There is something else. And I would, I think Tom Allen
agreed with me when I sort of put this to him with.
He does. He always does sit-down
interviews with the media, like one-on-one interviews with
different media, Outlets after spring practice.
The that's kind of a, that's one quiet time of year, where you
can just sort of sit down and you know, talk through whatever
flag an hour. and Dustin, and I sat with him and I'd probably
put this to him a slightly more polite way than I'm going to put
it to you now, but I think I got him to kind of agree with me.
That I think some guys sort of gave up on last season.
And I don't think it was just because they thought, oh, oh,
losing stinks. I'm gonna quit.
It's that you have this roster full of players that had bought
into the idea of playing in Indiana.
Because they could do something, you know?
In the, in the proverbial sense, no one else had done, you know,
I could go. So I Taiwan Mullen could go
somewhere else and probably win more games.
But I'm going to go to Indiana because I believe in this idea
that like, I'm going to make Indiana something different.
I'm going to be part of making Indiana, something different And
I have wondered. And again I said that I said it
more artfully to Tom. We're talking to him, but I
think he kind of agree with me or at least sort of
acknowledged. It was a factor that you had
this roster full of players that basically have bought into the
idea of including a number of players that probably could have
maybe should have gone pro after the 2020 season.
But they thought I'm coming back for one more year, like a tie
for iPhone, will I'm coming back for one more year to try and
finish this job. Whatever.
That looks like a ten win season.
You know the most wins in a season in program history,
breaking the bowl, drought winning the Big Ten whatever
that looks like. You know, we're going to take
one more big step together. And we're going to end.
It's worth saying to all those moments they got in 2020.
They didn't get to share with the fans.
That means something to athletes really does and I think we've,
we have learned that now more than we ever really appreciated
before covid. And they came back and there was
all this sort of build up even in their own minds.
And again, like I think you could probably get people to
sort of tacitly admitted around the program, they let the noise
get too loud. You know?
And not not may be too arrogant but just like that.
They just They probably could have pump the brakes a little
bit, you know, and turn the volume down, just a tad more at
different points. But once the season started to
go, the way it went, you had this roster full of guys that
maybe looked around. And thought I already did this
though, like when suddenly had to when suddenly you you know
whether you have the conversation directly or it was
something sort of more implied you had to look at them and say
like okay now we're not going to we're not going to go 10 and But
we need to Rally together so we can go six and six.
I think you had a lot of guys on that roster that maybe thought.
But I did that already. Like I came to Indiana to do
that and I did I came back this year on the idea of doing, you
know, of sort of expanding those Ambitions, one more time on now
that's not possible anymore and I think some guys just struggled
to re-engage with the season and then in the thing is, all these
things were happening together. You know, DJ Matthews got hurt.
Literally the week after. He emerged as like, Michael
penix is favorite wide receiver, playmaker, you know, Taiwan
mulliner, Devon Neff. He's got hurt.
Week, one came back like week for.
Then got hurt again, then came back and got hurt.
Again, Taiwan Mullen was in and out almost from the beginning.
So you've got, you know, you've got, you've got key players who
are also key leaders in and out immediately.
Michael penix was out by the second, Big Ten game, it's all
happening together. And so it's not like it's only
that they struggled. Early and then quit on the
season ever. You know maybe you sort of check
out on the season because you're also looking around and being
like well yeah of course we're not gonna be able to do this
because we're running a walk on out at quarterback and our
entire defensive backfield is is broken right now and like you
know so just did this just isn't going to work and I will say
this this is one of the few ways in which I will ever compare my
own athletic experience to to what like a big ten football
player. Does, I played on two really bad
football teams in high. A school.
We went Owen, 10 twice and I can tell you right now.
We all thought we were playing hard week, 10.
Like, we all believed we were practicing hard.
We were focused, we, but, but we knew that the number two team in
the state was going to come in and kick our ass on Friday.
And then the season was going to be over, and we wouldn't have to
deal with it anymore. And we could tell ourselves all
we wanted that we were still playing hard.
We were still trying hard everything but like Tucker was
coming with its three Georgia commits.
In the kid, that was going to get draft to play baseball at
quarterback and they were going to kill us.
And then we weren't gonna have to worry about it anymore.
And there does come a point where you lose some, I think,
you know, where you sort of disengage slowly almost without
realizing it. And so I think that In terms of
what happened last year and this is a long answer for giving
that's spinning, it forward to this year.
I think a big piece of it is basically just resetting
Ambitions. You've got a lot of transfers in
that probably feel like they have something to prove like a
counter basil a crash on chivers.
You've got some freshmen in who aren't going to come in and
think I'm here to get Indiana to the Pinstripe Bowl.
They're going to come in and think I bought into the Indiana.
That was going to the Gator. Bowl the Outback Bowl.
That's what I'm here for. But you still have what seems
like a hardened and recommitted core of seniors veterans
leaders, who spent the entire offseason being very honest
about what went wrong as a mechanism for making sure that
it gets put, right? So again for giving that was a
long answer when you go from, you know 14 and 7 over 2 years
at a job at a place like Indiana to 2 and 10 that there's there's
no short answer to what happened but I think if you That's what I
saw is sort of what went wrong and then, of course, there's
other things. Like the offense just could not
solve this increasing list of problems.
Like as the quarterback Merry-Go-Round kept spinning,
they couldn't, you know, Nick Sheridan.
Just nobody could ever get the line right.
There was no running back depth. We can keep going on and on, but
I think those are the three big things and I think they all kind
of came together together and I think they, You know, I think it
just if you kind of spin it forward to where Indiana is.
Now, I think the biggest thing is just sort of almost, like I
said, just resetting Ambitions after, you know, maybe a year of
feeling like you lost lost. Grip of those.
One of the odd aspects of the IU fan, football program
relationship right now is how perceptions of Tom Allen play
into the way that people feel about the program and Alan's, He
is been an interesting spot here because he's spent his first
couple of years. As head coach really, trying to
Galvanize fans and kind of promising them.
That there was going to be a breakthrough that was literally
the slogan for the program that first year that he was there.
That didn't really come when the Breakthrough did come it, it was
surprising and galvanizing. I think for a lot of IU fans and
then it gets followed up with a really good season in 2020 and
we can debate the how good 20 He actually was I mean there was
some luck involved with when they caught certain teams and
and they were all so good performance as it wasn't like it
was one of the other thing. But then a lot of the criticism
that I see of Alan now and and to be fair, I think that's been
the same kind of criticism. We've seen his whole career,
it's just been a change in volume and the number of people
who've had these issues has been, you know, how like how
skilled is he actually as a strategist in terms of football,
he's clearly had success as a Offensive coordinator and a guy
running a defense. His his coaching in terms of
game day strategy has sometimes been called into question.
I think reasonably so and it's hiring of assistance has been up
and down. You know, clearly hit Gold by
bringing in Kalin to bore Cain Wommack ended up turning into a
really good defensive coordinator but then you've got
what happened with Nick Sheridan.
You've got Charlton, Warren who was only there for a year and
left for a lesser position. I swear.
And now you have a new set of coordinators what with Alan
jumping back in to a role that he pulled out of a few years ago
because he said he needed to concentrate on the whole team.
So that's a long way of asking you.
Like how should how do you evaluate Allen at this point in
his career and how much should I you fans be willing to trust his
decision making process along those higher line strategic and
tactical items? Yeah.
That's a good question and I don't think there is I mean Mike
Cop out to begin with is I don't think there is a perfect answer
to it or even something resembling it.
I do think coach perception is and I believe this forever is
always driven by results. And that the example I always
use is Kirk Ferentz, you know, when when Iowa is and he's had a
couple of stretches where maybe Iowa has two losing seasons and
three in the, the one winning season is kind of underwhelming
and they're losing their rivalry games.
And You know that they all of a sudden it's he doesn't know how
to recruit a quarterback. This offense is old and stale,
look at this guy on the sidelines, he's boring, how can
these players, you know, be excited to play for him and then
he'll do the Kirk Ferentz thing where then he tears off like 28
wins and three you know, three years or 30 wins and three
years. And suddenly it's it's just the
Kirk Ferentz way. Is there a more consistent coach
in the Big Ten? Yeah, sure.
What he does is old-school. It's not modern, but man, it
works for Iowa. That's their identity and they
stick to it. And look at, you know, they just
want 11 games and they went to the Rose Bowl, you know, I get
it, your results, ultimately our and I was just met with Tom
crean to and people would be like our Tom crean is just out
of control on the sideline. It's like the first five years.
You love that. Like you you love that Tom was
Talking the sideline all the time and was you know was just
was like intensely into it was high energy and all that until
suddenly it felt you suddenly perceived that that wasn't right
that that that was somehow sort of holding Tom back for lack of
a better term. I think that Allen's
personality, Is always going to be a big part of his coach.
I don't think he's Nick Saban and I don't think there's a
point at which anybody should have her probably did believe,
he was Nick Saban. Alan's a big part of Alan's
strength in that job is always going to be tied to his ability
to basically instill that passion in other people.
And that means that sometimes it Probably is going to be passion
over performance if you understand what I mean and that
means that you know, no I would not expect Tom Allen to be
sitting there drawing up plays in the dirt.
Like you know I mean you know who's a genius offensive coach?
I'm trying to you know like I'm struggling here all of a sudden
like who's made an offense and on a Chip Kelly like you
understand what I'm saying? I don't joke killer.
Yes yeah yeah. I mean like you know some some
you know, revolutionary Savant like Joe tiller or Steve
Spurrier but like You know this is always true.
Alan's been and when he's winning everybody's loves it and
not just in Bloomington like he he captured something in 2020
like the the country was in a bad place.
We were all miserable and College football is looking for
people to enjoy frankly and Tom Allen was one of them.
And like I say this as someone who works incredibly hard to be
objective in doing my job. It was so wholesome that that
scene coming off the field against Wisconsin like in every
one of his players stopping to hug him and Shout at the camera
and all that kind of stuff like that.
That is that is something that transcends just like, hey nice
wind team. Like, that's that is actually
special and you don't get that. Everywhere you don't get that
with every winning season like you don't get that kind of that
kind of Harmony or Unity or togetherness, you know?
I mean and I even think about like you know, Tom Allen during
the whole sort of black lives matter movement around George
Floyd's death. When you know, when I think he
just tried to be very honest and be like I just I just want to
understand how my players are feeling.
This is clearly hurting them, and I do all I want to do is
just try to understand. And if and if all that means is,
I'm going to sit there and I'm going to listen.
And just give them someone to talk to, for an hour or two
hours, whatever it takes. I just want to try and
understand, I think there was a lot about Tony and all that felt
very genuine and I think it was, I think it genuinely was.
And, you know, obviously in 2020, it all sort of bundled
together to be this like magical.
Oh my god. Look, what I do football is
doing but that was no different than what Tom Allen had been
doing in 2019 or 2018 when people were frustrated 2017 when
people felt Indiana wasted an opportunity to, you know, to go
to a bowl game. My point is in fact, probably
did frankly, let me just be honest.
My point is, that will always be who Tom Allen is, and there are
gonna be some days when you're frustrated by it.
But there are also going to be some days when you surprise
Nebraska in Lincoln to get your sixth win and let Fred glass,
you know? Just just go pee on the 50-yard
line for what Scott Frost said. and that's you know, especially
when you're a football and I that's here's where I start to
sound, you know, very sort of like What is the word a
paternalistic? I start to sound very sort of
I'm talking down to you a little bit.
Is an IU football fan but like If you're a football like,
that's the stuff, you should hold onto.
And yes, don't get me wrong. Dream of going to the Rose Bowl.
That's great. That's as long as the Rose Bowl
exists, which may not be much longer, who knows?
But Like and if you ever get there, soak it all in.
But like, the fundamental purpose of all this is just to
enjoy it. Like, I don't understand people
who can't enjoy sports unless they somehow culminate in
winning something shiny like like that.
Like, that should be the goal. But ultimately if the only thing
that you can take in, this is a total tangent.
If the only thing that you can take pleasure in the result,
you're going to be disappointed. Most of the time because Most of
the time somebody else is going to win.
Well, Jim and what? No, no, this is this isn't me
saying just enjoy the Western Kentucky win.
And forget the 10 losses last year.
What I'm this is, I've gone on a tangent, but my point is with
Tom Allen. The process is always going to
be built on that passion. It is not an end.
Listen. Sometimes he's going to do some
stuff like go talk to people like Joe Moorhead about I mean
like Joe Moorhead who was widely considered a great offensive
mind before he took a job. He probably shouldn't have as
head coach at Mississippi State. Joe Moorhead was like, Tom Allen
ran laps around me when Indiana played Pitt State, and I think
it was 2016, possibly, and you can get other people like Jim
Harbaugh. And I don't think it is just
that coach thing of like talking about coaches.
You beat most of the time, very positively.
And then, warring with the ones who beat you, most of the time,
the Jim Harbaugh seems genuinely fascinated by Tom Allen.
And whatever you think of Jim Harbaugh, he's been a very
successful head coach across the course of his career.
He has the respect of his peers. I'm not saying this is all just
sort of like vibes. But passion is always going to
be part of it. Loyalty is always going to be
part of it. This, this was a lot of what
came up through, the whole Michael penix before he got
hurt. Should they bench him?
Should they not now in hindsight?
Sure, you can sit there and say, well, they should have benched
him sooner. I don't know how much difference
that would have made given. How much, how, given the breadth
of everything that was going wrong for Indiana in that
moment. But like, Loyalty and trust
those things are always going to be part of it and maybe they'll
be his undoing. Guess what?
For a lot of coaches and this is not just true of Tom Allen.
It's not just true in football is not just true in college
their strengths and their weaknesses.
Don't live in, you know, starkly different neighborhoods.
They're actually just down the street from one another and
sometimes coaches get undone by the very things that make them
good coaches. And I think you, and I can find
some very recent examples of that, just at this particular
institution that we discuss on this podcast.
Maybe that winds up being Tom. Allen's, I'm doing in one way or
another not giving up on a coach, or a player, whatever.
And like, no, you're right. Not every not every stamping
move. He's made has paid off that
every Staffing move he's made has even been a good one and
some have been good at times and then eventually failed like Nick
Sheridan had some really good moments.
In 2020 in a year where like offensive coordinators job for
very difficult. Then in 2021 boy he just had no
answers at all. You know Kane Wommack didn't
look like a particularly in hot inspired higher.
I remember when it happened getting texts from a couple
people like It's sort of like within the industry sort of
around. I you not like within the
program being like, oh, he's he's only doing this because
this is Dave Wommack son, like that's the only reason he's
hiring him. This is total favoritism.
And then like yeah a year later came Wommack is not only
coordinate. I mean his coordinating, one of
the better football defenses I've ever seen.
I mean they led the Big Ten and turnovers and sacks like that
was with without without. Single, double digit, sack
performer, the Big Ten, and turnovers and sacks.
And now King Wommack is a head coach but then, yes, I can fight
like Charlton, Warren did not work and by the end of last
season and certainly through this off season without
necessarily blaming it on him, or calling him out or starting
some war of words. Like, Allen has made it pretty
clear that by the end of last season, they were not playing
the defense he wanted. And that I think that's why he's
taking it over is because he's like, we're going to get back to
doing it my way. And then I'll turn it over to
someone else again possibly. But my point is You can't have
one without the other. It may eventually undermine time
Alan but this is who he is. This is this is this is the
coach you got. And I'll tell you what I told
when I told people for the first two years, when they said,
doesn't this breakthrough stuff can get tiring, doesn't this
Elio stuff? Get tiring from my perspective.
Sure. Yeah I'd rather come out and sit
there and explain things to me analytically because that's just
how I am. But that's just not for me and
the minute that stuff starts to feel like it's for me and not
his players. Coach has his family's, whatever
is the minute. I'll think he's done.
So you know, this is just kind of who he is and I don't know
that I fully answered your question other than to say like
should they trust him? I think they should appreciate
that. This is the way he's had success
and it may not mean that he can fix it, and it may not
ultimately bring all this back and he may ultimately get fired.
But I think the most we can ask of anyone in any Walk of Life,
is Just to do the job to the best of their ability, the way.
They know how And I think that's what you get from Tom Allen.
Now, I understand all of that. And I think that those are valid
points and, and certainly from an overarching, kind of
attitudinal perspective. I think that there's, there's a
lot to take from that. I will say that, I think if
there's a lack of trust or a an uncertainty about, Alan's actual
ability to maintain the momentum that he had built with the
program. It's, there's a real
psychological reflex among. Many people who follow, are you
football and have for a while? Like you said at the beginning,
when you get these sorts of Seasons, these two and ten
Seasons, it rarely comes back under that regime, you know, and
you saw it under Mallory. You know, we never really saw it
under Kevin Wilson, but I think we might have been en route to
seeing it under Kevin Wilson. Had that continued, you know,
you and you've seen certain coaches that it's never got off
the ground in the first place. And so I do Wonder to some Cory.
It's like when you think about the way that Alan has approached
things, you're right there have been successes, but there hadn't
been failure to the degree that we saw last year with this
program and I think it's a reasonable perspective for a lot
of IU fans to say, all right, well, we've seen now Alan,
hopefully at the worst that we're going to see him.
But is that the new normal? Because that does tend to be,
how I you football has played out historically.
Oh, yeah, I'm in. This is where I come back to
that day idea of nature versus nurture IU, fans have seen this
movie before and I mean, I have like, I mean, I was a student in
2007, the Insight bowl that that team came together across the
course of three seasons. It probably should have gone to
a bowl game the year before, you know, it had that obviously
tragedy with Terry Hefner and then that sort of triumphant
moment of hitting the field goal to be Purdue.
And then the next year, it all fell apart and, and yes, you
know, you'll lose a couple key pieces off that team namely
James Hardie, but like, That team should not have been as bad
in 2008 as it was. And Bill inch never got that
back and you know you bring up Bill Mallory that's fair.
I mean I can find you others. Lee Corso flirted with, you
know, sort of a greater level of success for a little while
before ultimately not being able to sustain it.
That is the history, the history of value football.
And to be clear, as I said earlier, I don't, you know,
let's say, ìyou, manages to go 6 and 6 this year gets to the
Music City Bowl, which would be a lot of fun.
And they get into existence Zack, Dave, Dave Ramsey is
listening, you know, president of the Music City Bowl.
Just just, just keep it in mind, Zach loves Nashville, What's a
Indiana gets to Music City Bowl? Let's say Indiana beats.
I don't know, you know, Missouri.
Mike Leach is Mississippi state in the Music City.
Oh, hey, that's good. Who's your media Bowl?
I'm all for that. Everything's fixed.
And I'm the football is just going to be good in perfect
know, like and guess what? Most coaches get fired.
Even the good ones, like, Bobby Bowden.
Basically got fired. A man who turned 42 State into a
cultural totem and changed the way we thought about, basically,
everything in college football. I mean, he essentially got
fired. He was a Hall of Famer.
He was a legend, and my point in this is most coaches, get fired
in the end very few coaches. in, get to determine the You know,
the final the the sort of Last Exit of their career, that's
just the reality of the job and you know it when you get into it
at some point in the future it is very possible.
Indiana will have to fire time out just because Tom Allen could
have 10 great years and then if he has like three or four bad
ones, that's the nature of the job.
I'm not suggesting that if Indiana has whatever.
This is a good season in 2022. All Is Forgiven, all is
forgotten, and all is perfect forever.
But We're like the again this this sort of like central theme
that I keep shoving down. Everyone's throat is, are you
footballs nature is basically what you're talking about here,
which is that this is, this is the beginning of the end and
then listen to it. May well be and there's a lot of
things. Well, you know, this kind of
roster turnover, this kind of Staff turnover, this kind of
radical sort of like new offense, you know, we're
switching up, who's calling the plays, we do all these things.
Those are usually the Things that happen on the road to
everybody getting fired. I totally get that.
I think that there's a sort of separate conversation to be had
about basically like how that calculus changes in the portal
era because realistically Indiana is going to run out on
offense, on September 4th that could at minimum could start a
quarterback a running back. Three wide receivers and maybe
an offensive lineman though right now I would suspect,
probably not just based on what wait time I was talked that all
got to Indiana via the portal in the last 24 months.
So, like the portal changes everything in a way and we don't
fully understand how yet. Well it's an interesting.
There's an interesting thing with this as well.
It's not just that you're right and Indiana.
I think there's somebody is going to have to live in the
portal because of Ni L the the relative lack of structure
around Indiana football and IL compared to the teams that
they're competing against but also and I think it's you have
to keep in mind two things. Things one is pretty much going
to be the same team for the next two years with the potential,
certainly of some guys leaving an or coming back, but Allen's
talked about how the recruiting class is going to be small this
year because there are going to be a whole lot of people leaving
next year. So you're going to have a
relatively stable group and let's be honest.
Tom Allen's got one of the biggest buyouts in college
football right now, you know, it would cost.
What 300? Everybody's about to like
money's not going to be an object for long, right?
But that media deal doesn't Again, until the fiscal year,
twenty three, right? So we're talking about
essentially, it's almost financially impossible, even if
I you wanted to fire out. And I'm not advocating that they
do, which gives Alan a weird kind of like three year window
here to demonstrate that the to attend was a fluke.
I am interested to see how about all those factors play in
because it isn't, that is the one thing that makes it a bit
different from some of the scenarios you're describing that
have happened in the past where things start to fall apart
quickly. And then it's inevitable that
there might be A change. I don't know that that's
necessarily the case here. And also, you know, I you
football fans are as passionate as anybody but like, you know,
like Brian Parsons getting fired at Alden.
I mean like you know I'm like I know how it goes in a place like
Auburn you know or Georgia or somewhere like that where like
once you reach a certain point, you there's too much passion,
there's too much hysteria around it IU.
Football will always be a little bit calmer than that just
because it is not. Maybe the this, the central
sport in, you know, kind of the in.
I mean like I've put it this way.
Kevin Wilson, got five years. Archie Miller got four.
I think that, I mean, you know what I mean?
That, I think that's, that's a little bit of a difference in
IU. Football fan culture, you'd give
Kevin Wilson five years now, maybe not anymore, because the
money is again, about to be a lot bigger.
But I think you understand what I'm saying, but where you get to
nurture, instead of nature is I'm sitting here looking at this
roster. You've got 12 sixth year players
players who have been in Indiana For all of tha malins tenure,
you've got one, two, three, four, fifth year players that
either have been here, all five years or have been here long
enough to, I think be classified as part of the core group, in
case of Jack total. Then you've got Matthew Bedford.
Sean Rancher see you in a funk guitar Taiwan.
Mullen I'm just kind of scrolling down here but you know
Mike kaduk Tim Weaver Bo Robbins Josh sanguinetti.
These are all players who are entering their fourth years in
Indiana. Again I get back to what I said
before is the the people trying to lead this revival know what
85 looks like or what 6 and 2 looks like, they actually know
what it looks like a lot better than they know it two and ten
looks like I think part of what happens and you know somebody
from that 2007 Insight Bowl team is listening and thinks I'm flat
out wrong like Zach Osterman. Zach that Osterman an Indy
star.com. I'd love to hear their
perspective. But part of what I think, In 07.
is Indiana feels like You know, sort of the task has been
completed when it gets to that bowl game.
And when it gets hard again, it's not that difficult for
everybody to revert back to where Indiana was, you know, 18
months earlier or 24 months earlier, which is four and
seven, three and eight, all that kind of stuff.
The reality is for Indiana, is that since 2013, Indiana has 15
or more games every season, save one up until last year.
And it only only twice in that. What from from 13 to 20 is what
7 years. Only twice in those 7 years. 8
years, 8 years, only twice. In those eight years.
Did Indiana. Not going to the final game of
the season. Either already Bowl eligible or
playing for Bowl eligibility. And those are the first two
years of that stretch. Indiana, had a six-year stretch
were either at went to a bowl every year or either an end of
the season in the bowl filled or it went into the Purdue game,
five and six playing for a spot in the bowl filled and the only
one of those years that wasn't at least five wins is the year
that Nate side felt shoulder. Jury just completely derails the
offense and Kevin Wilson's. Well, what really derails, the
offense is Kevin Wilson's, quarterback roster management
and affected. His backup is a true freshman
who was, you know, way physically ready, all respect is
an edema for the Big Ten. I mean I think even Xander would
probably admit that. He just had that point in his
career, the physical demands of that position.
We're going to be too much for my point is like it's not Just
like Indiana had a couple good years out of nowhere, like
Indiana had been building this for a while.
And when when Indiana had the season that it had in 2020, I
think a lot of a lot of us kind of looked around and said you
know like well hey this is this is actually kind of what Indiana
has been doing you know if you really if you really look at it
this is this is sort of what Indiana has has been building
toward. Maybe this this year, 2020 being
kind of You know, the the absolute sort of best best case
scenario but like it shouldn't be surprising that a team to win
18 for last year with a one touchdown loss in Penn State and
effectively, I think they lost by 9.
But like really in terms of the competitiveness of the game, a
free point loss at Michigan State that then returned a lot
of that, it shouldn't be shocking.
That that team has gone up another level, that's what made
last year. So, jarring to me, Watching on,
you know, sort of, you know, from a neutral perspective was
you actually have this progression of like Indiana is
getting better and better and it lasted over multiple coaching
staffs. It lasted over multiple roster
Cycles. It lasted over multiple
offenses, to some extent. Anyway, multiple defenses, it
lasted over multiple quarterbacks, you had all
Americans on both sides of the ball.
You know, it wasn't like you just hit on two really good,
recruiting classes and just rode that on now. here's the, here's
the one thing I will say about kind of long-term future is This
Indiana team. If this if the season is going
to be approved to be a turnaround, is going to count
pretty heavily on guys that are not gonna be around a lot
longer. And that's where I think you
start to, you do start to ask the question of Tom, Allen of
whether you're an X's and O's genius, or not, whether you're
whether you're coaching ability is more centered, and passion,
and persistence and work ethic and belief in the intangibles.
Here's where you need to prove. You can do something the
sustains that you can build a culture that going back to the
Kirk Ferentz. Example, maybe there's some lean
years, but ultimately everybody trusts and believes in the
method of doing things enough, that you're going to have more
good years than that. but with this team right now, You know,
this group. Would be allowed to look at last
year and say, no. We're never doing that again
because we never did that before.
That's, that's not us all of this other success is US.
Dominating, Maryland, and Rutgers beating Purdue upsetting
Nebraska on the road, the 2020 season at least to some extent,
that's us. That's what we're capable of.
That's what we're doing. Like, last year that was like,
that, that was just a bad dream and that's where I think there
is. This this tension of like, Which
sort of wins the roster that has every right to believe that it
is better than this or the program that has struggled to
escape this identity for 75 years. 120 years but yes nothing
happened. There's plenty of national
championships claimed by programs pre-World War Two but
no I take your point. Yeah.
So anyway well we'll stop here. I'm sure we'll talk with you
again as we get a little bit closer to the start of the
Season. There's going to be certainly
some more news, some more observations we can dive into.
What exactly this IU offense is going to be if we're ever going
to learn, if we're really going to have to wait until the
kickoff of the Illinois game, but Zach.
Thanks for joining us on the show is always appreciate your
time and look forward to reading you throughout the course of the
Season at Indy star.com. Thanks for having me, as always,
thanks for letting me. I feel like I did a lot more
talking than listening. I apologize.
Hey, you know what, we always appreciate your observations on
thing. So not a problem at all.
Thanks to all you folks for listening in, we will be back
with more IU football coverage. Over the next couple of weeks as
we get ready for Indiana, taking on Illinois to start the 2022
season. I'm Kailyn Javi.
Okay. you folks on the flip side, bring back the Bison, so
everybody