You're listening to the back home network presented by
home-field apparel. All right, folks, welcome back
to Crimson cast. Scott here with you, it's funny
as Galen. And I did our last post game
after the Purdue game. I was like, All right.
I can be done podcasting about IU football for a while done
listening to it. I was ready to shut it down and
then Galen has done a couple of football Recaps, which I've
thoroughly enjoyed. And now I'm doing a football
recap so I guess we can't get away from football.
It's the thing we can't stop. Loving that said, it really was
a interesting season. I think it's a pivotal season in
the Tom Allen 10-year. I think this offseason is going
to be interesting. And you know as a fan myself I
wanted to get a really Good feel for The Fan Experience and what
Panther fans are feeling out there.
So no better to talk to than can buy cough, who is the host of
the postgame show, the postgame call-in, show for IU, football
on the learfield network. And so wanted to get him on here
and get his opinions on what we saw this year and so excited to
talk to him. Before we get there, got to talk
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Check them out. Without further Ado, here's my
conversation with Ken by cough enjoy.
Alright delighted to have Ken back on, you know, Ken from
peace.com but also more importantly.
He is the host of the postgame call-in show for IU football.
It's been too long but I think he's a great person to talk to
you about IU football, but also to get a Fan's perspective
because he deals with them after every game, which is really,
really God's work as a special place in heaven for you, my
friend. So, Ken good to talk to you,
buddy. It's good to talk to you and,
you know, people don't necessarily realize or remember
that I man alone, you know, and so yeah.
In terms of Wanting IU football to do well, and all that.
Yeah, you have the journalistic part of it but, you know, just
from a personal standpoint, you know it, I know journalists.
Love to go ahead and try to act like that disappears.
It doesn't disappear, and somebody who covers the team
wants the team to do well, and because it's more fun to watch
good football than it is to watch bad football.
But we've been stuck with with this, oh, I certainly understand
the passion of fans when they are dealing with that and
calling me. Me week over week over week and
I would far prefer people to call complaining then to just be
apathetic and give up. I want that passion over.
Apathy every time. Yeah.
I were not hate the word starting with this because the
topic that I absolutely despise, I get so tired.
I mean I've been I'm an alumni as well.
I'm an alumnus as well. I've been going to IU game since
like the mid-80s. I've been a season ticket holder
since like 08. So I paid my dues.
I get really tired of the, you know, fans just need to support
this team of Got to step up the fans.
The support is. There you see it even this
season after a miserable season last year, you know, against
Michigan. The the students are there in
full effect for the entire game. The place is packed, you know,
last year against Cincinnati. You know, it doesn't it's always
that argument, always bothers me because the fans have shown up
sometimes on very little success, they'll show up in
force and then normally they end up getting you.
The football pulled away for them like Charlie Brown but I
get tired of the its fans job sport.
Now you're kind of seeing that a little bit.
With n IO. But let's let's save all that
stuff for the end. So I want to talk about this
season but that but the fan part is part of the equation.
I mean, yeah. That that it just is from a
recruiting standpoint in all of that.
It is part of the equation. Now, like you said though,
people have shown up the last couple of years not every game
but at times and they've been disappointed.
So one of the things that came out of covid-19, two straight
years of, you know, eight and five and six and two and people
showed up last season and what You had was half a campus of
undergrads who had never had the opportunity to go to a football
game and in two years because the Freshman couldn't go when
they were freshmen saw. And so, they were able to
finally start going when they were sophomores and freshmen are
obviously just going to go. And so you had the opportunity
to kind of change that culture when it came to the fan base, by
having some success and they didn't.
And that that really, really hurts.
So looking at this last season, that we go 4 and 8 2 and 7 and
Conference, you know, but there's a couple ways you can
look at this year. I'm curious just from your
perspective. How do you kind of classify this
last season? We just saw from IU football.
I wasn't good. It wasn't good.
It's you had games where they were closed and they had to
finish. And that's all a big part of the
equation and you had 3 games early in the season, when they
found a way to finish and they found a way to a to pull it out
even though the offensive line was playing terribly, even
though you had a defense that was far too generous and they
did manage to come back and win a game late in the season to
finish four and eight, you know, you win the bucket and your five
and seven and there's some momentum to it.
The, the problem is that you just had too many close ones
that they had an opportunity to win that they let get away and
let get away in ways that we've seen before and it was the same
thing week over week over week. It took too long for some
changes to be made both in Personnel.
Both in along the coaching staff.
So it's a disappointing year. It's great that they doubled
their win total from the year before, but it's just simply
it's not going to cut it. I mean it's plain and simple and
that to me is, is the frustrating part of it because
it wasn't a good year. You got close but closes and
good enough. And you know, and usually when
you had as many older guys on that defense as You did, even if
you're banged up, you need better performances than what we
got. And it did to me.
That's why it was just a really disappointing year.
I had had gone through and going into the fourth quarter.
And I want to say seven out of the nine, Big 10 games, Indiana,
either was leading tied or within seven points of of their
opponent. Going into the fourth quarter
and they weren't able to do it, get it done against And Nebraska
and Rutgers and Maryland and all of these ball clubs were you had
that opportunity but I said you know over and over and over
again it's not how it's How many and they weren't able to finish
and and pick up those victories. They win against Rutgers, they
win against Maryland. It's a completely different
feeling to the end of the season as they go and they squandered
every one of those opportunities so it's just a disappointing
day. Disappointing year.
I agree and it's also coming off of may be the most disappointing
year in at least the last 20, 30 years and I you football and
that's that's the tough thing. That's this hard to reconcile
here because I definitely, you know, I don't at all agree with
the idea that you know 2020 was a fluke.
When you look at me differently there were some interesting
things that happened in that season but as you pointed out
you know the end of the Kevin Wilson Arrow Through the start
of the Tom Allen era. You got to a point where, you
know they were at least going for a bowl game in the bucket.
They had five wins going to the Purdue game or when they didn't,
they actually went to a bowl game.
So you have this progression up and it kind of felt like, all
right, we we found our footing and we don't need to go back to
the depths of the Big Ten and then for it just to go off a
cliff that quickly is, is tough, but I'm curious, you know, it
almost feels like, there's that moment where we win the
Wisconsin game, Tom, Allen's talking to the press and you
know, ESPN people are like this coach in America, you know?
It's a great moment that everybody remembers.
It's almost like that was the high-water mark everything since
then taking up the Big Ten logo for the Ballgame.
Like everything has not seemed to go.
Well, I'm curious if you can pinpoint kind of what happened.
Like it's just a really big fall and, you know, I often hear the
discussion of like you maybe it's like Pat Fitzgerald, at
Northwest when he goes high as a little the trouble is it's like
patents. Jose has highs like he wins Big
Ten title or he goes to a Rose Bowl like and then he has lows
and he comes back and does it again.
I guess. The question is, can we do it
again? Sorry, too many questions.
What do you think happened there at the end of 2020 or do you
even see? That is kind of the inflection
point or not? Well, I know it is the
inflection point. You look at 20:20 you people
talk about 2020 being a fluke forgetting that I you 18 and 5
the year before that. And so I mean you that
Foundation was said then they go 6 and 2 in 2020 and they play
Tennessee in the Gator Bowl and two years later.
Indiana has lost. What is it now?
17 of 18, big ten games and you have seven and said 17 of 18,
big ten games and then they and Tennessee has been number one
team in the country. So you know, you have two
programs that have gone very different directions, I have you
know, last year. Tom Allen talked about how he
felt his team came into the 2021 season 2.
Kind of reading their own hype and 22, confident, and feeling
like they had made it. You know, it does come down to
quarterback play, it comes down to offensive line, it comes down
to all of that. And, you know, to me it, there
are there's so many problems with that with that football
program right now, but the most important position in sports, it
is quarterback and Michael penix was there and we've seen what
Michael penix can do with decent receivers and and time to throw
and he just didn't have it last year, rather in 20.
Yeah, in 20. Twenty twenty twenty one, so it
was quarterback play, but it was quarterback play that struggled
because of play-calling and it struggled because of poor
offensive line. And the defense took a step
back, which we knew they had lost some players, but still the
steps that were taken back there isn't one?
I don't think there's one incident outside of what I
always get hung up on is the onside kick against Tennessee at
the Gator Bowl and that one that play, you know, if Indiana wins
the Gator Bowl I does 2021 happen the way it does.
I don't know because, you know, it does it, it does, it draw
more people, the more fan, more recruits more, everything that
goes along with it, it's tough to say, but that one haunts me
because Indiana ended up losing that bowl game, the way we've
seen Indiana lose games before. And so it was that feeling of
this is a special year, but it also ended a way that was really
familiar the other Thing is the ground underneath college
football changed and at the absolute worst time for Indiana
football at a time when it needs stability.
When it needs some time to be able to succeed.
Be successful year over year, you put together seasons of 5 +
7, 5 & 7, 8 & 5, 6 & 2, and then when you have a bad season, it's
also at a time when people could start moving around and leaving
and and To me, there isn't any one spot, but there are a pile
of decisions that have kind of snowballed to where we are now.
Yeah, the quarterback thing. It's tough for me because you
know I look at last year and I drove to Iowa I was at that game
and it was funny you know, I was telling my boys about it.
I was excited that you know, we're going to do the wave
really excited to show them that.
It's like we're down 21-nothing and like, two and a half minutes
or four minutes of gameplay. And I like tell my wife like
We're going to make to the wave. We might leave before the end of
the first quarter, but you saw early on whether it was health
or just, you know, Comfort the pocket like penix did not look
ready to play. That's right.
And absolutely his comeback from a rough injury.
What I? And again I always preface this
like I know that football coaches know more than me, I'm
just do do podcasts and watch football.
I know they know more but there's a part where I struggle
to understand like how did they not see that?
Was it, where was it? Just that was their best option.
But how did they not see that he didn't look 100% ready?
And then the rest of the season, it's like art.
We're going to do Jack Toto. Think we're just, we're kind of
like on our heels. Like, how did you not have a
plan B in place? Then you go into this season?
Same thing, you go with Connor, Bay's lack, and then I still am
confused as to what happened after Rutgers like he wasn't
hurt, but he didn't play against Penn State, but he wasn't hurt
enough. That he then played the next
week, but then you get total in there.
Tell who gets hurt and then it's like you put in sores be and
then you go to Dexter Williams, not something.
To Williams the future. So why wasn't he?
Why is he your fourth string back up?
Like it's, it looks like we're always confused and wondering
why we're having these issues. When, by the way, is the team,
where I think Osterman do this with gaalan on their pod.
Like, we've had a season-ending quarterback injury, like 13.
The last 16 years and that's just a variety of factors.
It's nobody's fault, but it is something you almost have to
prepare for as an IU coach. And it does seem like we're
always Like confused, shocked, befuddled and don't seem to know
what to do when we have quarterback instability.
So, I'm just it's, it's frustrating, but it also makes
me wonder like, what are they seeing that, that I'm not.
Well, it's the quarterback handling has been atrocious over
the years. I mean, just absolutely terrible
for again for the most important position on your team.
Kevin Wilson, handled it terribly just terribly and Tom
Allen has not done a good job. Either now, Tom Allen, the way
that he has approached things has always been kind of, he's
the head coach of the defense, and you have offensive
coordinators the head coach of the offense and so that's part
of it. He had previously talked about
how he likes a dual threat quarterback but the problem is
if you look at the guys that they've had at quarterback you
haven't had a lot of dual-threat guys and you know Michael penix
wasn't that guy yeah it runs very pleasant.
Indeed are on very much. You know, he was mobile but
that's different than being a dual threat guy.
So the issue last year was the same as it was this year to
wear. When you're starting quarterback
went down, you had to use a completely different offense
than you did that, then your first drink I did.
And so that's what you ran into this year.
Was you had Connor, Bay's lag, who's brought in which I have a
problem that you are on your six of your program and you're
bringing In grad transfer guys, when you have guys that have
been in your program year, over year over year, that aren't
developing to where they need to be.
That to me is an issue that that you have that in will have that
same situation going into next year as well because you don't
have anybody that's waiting. But so you have base lack, their
base lack was inconsistent and was not, anybody who could be
successful with the offensive line, the way it was You have
him missing the game against against was it Rutgers or Penn
State state Penn State total gets hurt.
And so then, Brandon sores be is brought in.
And that was the move where everybody said, what are you
doing? What are, you know, you if you
don't have Dexter Williams, ready, I always say coaching is
a two-part equation, its players, but the coaches have to
be there too, but regardless, if you don't have some kind of
package, ready, knowing That that these guys are a snap away
from having to go in, what are you preparing for?
What are you doing, bringing in Brandon swords be was a head
scratcher. And then you have decks and
decks, look, the looked good, you know, I mean, he he didn't
throw the ball well, but it did change.
What Indiana was able to do. To me, you have different
drastically, different styles of quarterback.
So that when you have A pocket passer like Bay's lack is he
comes out of the game. You have to completely change
your your the way that you go about things especially after
Jack. Tuttle got hurt now.
To me, it's they painted themselves in a corner, a little
bit with Bay's, lack, because they said he was hurt, he was
banged up and, and all of this, you know, that's what the
coaches say. And they know better than I do
given his play and given comments prior to the bye week.
It sure did seem like they were planning on going a different
direction in quarterback. So now, total gets hurt and It
was weird to me, they had Bay's lack up in the Press Box for
that Penn State game because they said they wanted to see him
from above to me if you you want to have him on the field,
talking to the other guys and doing all that.
But that's not what they did. They had babies like up in the
Press Box. That's fine.
That's a coach's choice but now you have to bring him back.
And this is a guy that, you know, a if, if he was sat down,
Bays lack, you know, wasn't excited for it.
So they had to bring them back against Ohio State and then they
let him A couple of series and they bring a Dexter.
So again to me get side to me and then Dexter gets hurt and
base like has to go back in. So you have this revolving door
for the second straight year. Where do you end up last year
with a walk-on starting against the Purdue again in the bucket
game? And Grant Grandma, you had
Diamond McCauley wouldn't throw the football moves to wide
receiver. It is a quarterback position
that has just been horribly mangled because you have a
moving Target constantly in the style of player to have in the
the offense that you have that look that's another issue where
this is now, what is it? The fourth offense of
coordinator and six years is that right?
That what it is so or is it? Yeah, they're on their fourth
offensive coordinator. So that's not helpful when
you're trying to build that quarterback position but again
to me It's a head-scratcher on how that has been handled
because you have to have a vision.
You have to have what you want your program to look like.
And it can't simply depend on a guy getting hurt and everything
has to change to me. It to me that that has been an
issue. Yeah.
No and that's, you know, and this is something I've heard is
kind of the the seasons people have been kind of putting in the
context, as you know, more is made of that Purdue game.
That I think really happened that, you know, the Dexter
Williams injury is And I feel for that's a horrible injury.
It sucks. That is just that's a freak
thing that just absolutely sucks.
I feel for the kid on the flip side, this is a kid who has
thrown 38 passes and completed 13 for the year.
He's got a good-looking arm but you know I was pulling up other
stats like in 2015, you know, Xander diamant, attempted, 31
passes, and completed 15. Very similar numbers in two
games. I'm not trying to compare the
two. I think the experience is much
better. Her arm.
But this weird narrative has, I'm seeing kind of propagate
with Dex doesn't get hurt or up 73.
Probably when they came. It's like I don't like I don't
know. And like you know it definitely
does hurt the feel going in the next year that you know,
Williams is probably out for the year.
But I was one of the few who like I'm already concerned with
him as our quarterback next year, even before the injury
because, you know, he looked very similar to this on McAuley
who was did that last year and then all of a sudden he's a wide
receiver and not even quarterback.
More. So it's it's just all
head-scratching but it does put this, this is kind of been what
I've seen coming and where we are now.
Is this program is in its, in a really tough spot, you have a
guy in Tom Allen, who we said here, A bunch of times.
I know you probably deal with people in the postgame all the
time but it's like if you know what's going on, he's here for
the next two, maybe three years, no matter what, and that's just
that is what it is, whether you like it or not, so just that,
that becomes that part of it. But this is a guy who's got to
figure out a way to get his program back.
And It's it's tough because you mentioned your painting into the
corner. I've said this to like the the
whole program is painted in a corner because you really can't
change the offense of coordinator.
Again, you've done that four out of six years.
The defensive coordinator, I guess you could change but he
didn't even get to coordinate this year.
Having Tom Allen ran the defense which is also a puzzling thing
that that's what was supposed to feel good.
It's you know in Pro Football Focus.
It's the second worst rated defense in the Big Ten just
ahead of Northwestern which is not in your behind the Braska.
Not exactly where you To be, you know, we got rid of Hitler,
which is good, but again, I always joke that it's like, you
know, if we're watching, you know, a Big Ten basketball game
and it's like, hey Nebraska, you know, in basketball, they change
their third assistance, like our who cares, what?
Nebraska, it's like 10 line. Coach is going to change it, so
it's like you can't really making those changes.
The coach is going to stay the same and now you have a ton of
turnover and all that culture, That was supposed to be being
built as gamma chi. I mean, this is where the money
comes from, but it's like, I don't this, what the moneys for,
but I Don't I honestly, this is one of those few times.
I have no idea what the answer is to solve this, but you have
to figure out a way to get this team back into Bowl eligibility,
but it's going to be tough because they're painted into a
corner in so many different areas and you lose all the
momentum of people least being excited to see if Dexter
Williams could be a good quarterback next year because
now you come in with just question marks basically, at all
skill positions. Once again after that, Ohio
State game, I said, you know, this is the, the next two games.
Are preseason games for 2023 where you're selling Yeah, a
vision you're selling on what this program could be.
And so, did you know, they beat Michigan State and that was
nice, but it was just one game and, you know, it Dexter stays
in that Purdue game. Do they win?
It's me, Dexter doesn't play defense.
He doesn't, it doesn't get them to play better that way, but it
really is an issue to say the least.
Because, you know, after last year 2 and 10, Tom talked about
just stripping everything down to Bare Bones, you know, looking
at absolutely everything and where can we get better?
And, you know, we got player councils and Leadership Council
any and all this kind of stuff, change, defensive border, and
change, offensive coordinator. You've done what you can in
that? So now, after going for an eight
on the year, how do you come back and say, okay well we're
going to strip it down to the studs again.
You can't do that, you can't do that.
I mean, that's it because you've already done that, and this is
not to interrupt, but this is the trouble.
I have with Tom Allen is, you know, good or bad.
He's never been like an amazing X's and O's coach, he's not, but
he's a guy who gets more out of players and maybe they should
he's a vow. As Galen, says, he's Vibes coach
a really good with culture, no doubt about it, and he took a
team to higher levels that I use had in 70 years.
Like I'm not disputing that and he Guys, to play better as a
some than the hole and that's great and you can do that.
You don't have to be good at X's and O's, but they like, so
you're a culture guy. That's great.
That's where I have a real trouble.
We're after 2020, what? It's like over the culture
sucking, it's like, all right, well, that's that's what you're
good at. Like you're not the best at X's
and O's and I'm not being a dick, is just, it is true.
So if you're not good at culture, like now, what are we
left with? And now another year, it's like
where we have another kind of seemingly some culture issues,
it's like what What are you being?
What are you selling here? And what is your one?
Key ingredient? Because being the Indiana
football, coach is hard. Like, you've got to be really
good at something because this is one of the toughest jobs in
America. And, and that's what, that's
what freaks me out is that it's like you're being sold on like,
it's a culture and I agree with and that's what you're good at
and then to go the culture sucks.
Like, alright, well that accepts again.
It's like I don't know where you're turning to.
Yeah. No.
And the frustration too is that, you know, you don't have a team,
a program with an identity, you know, when Tom And came here.
He completely changed that defense, you know, it's a
complete 180 change to where they were awful to where they
were getting stops. And then his first four years,
they were very, very solid defensively in the past two
years that hasn't been the case. And so your identity isn't
defense anymore, you don't have an identity on offense.
You're not like a throw the ball around the yard team.
You're not a pound the ball on through the Run team.
You just don't have an identity and with the culture portion of
it, this Is why I said, you know the ground shifted under
Indiana. You you have a culture to wear
your everybody's playing for one another.
The Elio is front and center on, absolutely everything.
But then you also have the transfer portal and you have n
IL money to where all of a sudden, the players who maybe
once upon a time, that could work long-term with playing for
the guy on to the your left and to your right.
Well, now you're welcoming in a bunch of guys from other
programs and they've seen they met Senior, you got guys from
Ole, Miss you, got guys from Albarn.
They've seen what happens in a program where there has been
success and what the attitude is and then they come here and they
see that it's not like that not in here, you're not having that
kind of success. So at what point do guys start
playing for themselves? What time at, what point do they
try to show out for themselves and then you throw in Ni L money
and or the lack thereof and they hear what other people are.
Getting all of that to me works together.
Whether to break down that whole idea of elio, Elio works great
if you have to sit out a year if you transfer if you are playing
you know really playing for the name on the front of your
jersey, but that's not really where we are with college
football anymore. And so even building a culture
and maintaining that culture to where you have a relationship
with the kid from. He's 16 17, 18 years old, you
get him to commit here, he's all-in, you have that
relationship, and then you start sprinkling and Guy, Who last
year were playing for somebody else or now it might have a year
or two left and really want to show what they can do.
They're not so worried about playing for the guys around them
as they are for showcasing their own talent.
And so all of that, I think is if you have a culture guy who's
going to build a culture, it's a lot harder to do now with
transfer portal and N IL, which I happen to love.
I think it's great for the kids but for in terms of building a
culture, that's an issue. Yeah.
You mentioned and IO and I'm with you too.
I felt for years that play payers should be getting paid.
I'm very happy for it. What?
I'm not a fan of is some some of the media, you know, kind of
continuing to say like Indiana's got to provide more for ni L.
They've got to put more money, even some from the athletic
department kind of pushing that. So I do think it's a two-sided
coin, like yes, Indiana has to be competitive from an ni L
perspective to get players, but I also think, you know, it's not
just money is going to Solve the problem because if you're look
at Michael pennies, he goes from kind of Addis, you know, bad.
I you team last year, really bad offensive lines where he covered
up. A lot of offensive line issues.
He goes to a team that has kind of an identity has a really good
offensive line has a plan around him and he suddenly 10 and 2 and
a Heisman candidate. If your pet X is like would you
how much is that worth to you? Like do you want to come back to
IU and get smacked around and go for and 845 million?
Dollars, or would you rather go to Washington?
Maybe make the less and I owe money but maybe win a Heisman,
right? You know, maybe get some
endorsements that way and I think that's something that
isn't factored in here. Is that it's a two-way street
but there's a certain amount of money.
Like there's no amount of money that's going to get, like, CJ
shroud, come to IU for nilu could offer 25 million dollars.
It's like you have a stay at Ohio State.
Like, I'm just, that's where I'm going to be.
And I never think that's fully factored in the get some of
these high-level. Yes for the, you know, the Right
Guard. It's Matter of if some of these
high level skill position which I you needs, I'm not saying n IL
is it's going to help but it's not going to be the Panacea that
I think. Sometimes it's pushed out there
because other factors are there, those are factors that you know,
alumni can't solve like we got to get a better aligned, we got
to get better Coach, we just got to have better results because
no amount of money you're going to give is going to get high
level quarterback to giving. This is where I go back to, you
know, we spent, you know, three or four games and 2021 being
like we got to keep NX a starter because Alan saying, you know,
that's our guy, he's a guy in the locker room, I can't do this
to a starter but then 12 months later you're just yanking base
like in and out of the starting lineup and it's like this is a
guy who started an SEC school then maybe not, you know, top
level as but an SEC school and what's his experience going to
be like two other people who call Connor but hey, Connor.
What was it? Like transferring to IU in the
portal? Is he going to give them a
five-star Yelp review? Like I don't think so.
So it's is like, it is a two-way street there on the ni L, think,
well, and, and, but Not a new problem because you know,
Indiana has been recruiting for years and you could have
high-level guy wants to go to a school.
Not even, even the top of the top Ohio State are, you know,
Penn State or wherever but wants to go someplace that has
historically been successful. He can go there and sit there
for two or three years before he gets a real chance to play and
he's going to go to a bowl and he's gonna get everything that
goes along with being a whatever school you know football player
or you could come to Indiana play right away.
Possibly be Be a star help, build something.
It's been tough to convince kids to do that.
To not go someplace that has already been historically good.
So now you have something to where you can go to some place
and get paid some kind of money and get it get more support or
you're going to come to Indiana and maybe get a chance to play
right away. But the ni L money to me is an
important part of it, it from a macro standpoint, but from a
micro Stan You're exactly right. You can't go out and you buy a
couple of players you know with n IL money and everything is
fixed. That's just not how it works.
There's not enough depth there's not enough money to make it all
worthwhile. So it is it's a challenge to say
the least because especially to be struggling as much as they
have over the past two years is arguably the worst time in the
past hundred years of college football, to be to be struggling
with this. And also I I cannot I cannot
stress this enough. It's not the first time, Indiana
has had a problem with money and players and this is the the
History part of me coming out here.
After WWII the Big Ten had a rule that you could get, you
could pay a guy 30, get a guy who had a job for 35, dollars a
month to play and you know, all across the Big Ten.
That was what they they got. You had guys coming back from
war. They had families, they were
coming to school and they Need some money so they allowed them
to hold jobs, that would pay $35 a month at Indiana.
Beau MacMillan decided that money was only available for
married guys. Single guys couldn't do that
other schools in the Big Ten, didn't have that rule so guess
what? A bunch of the single guys that
were on that 45 team that went undefeated they went elsewhere
and they played and played pivotal roles for other teams in
the Big Ten and your two later Beau MacMillan bolt in town.
Down, and it's been quite the struggle sense.
And so, again, it's to me, this whole offseason is about a
vision of the future. There's nothing worse than
having 0 Direction, you have to be able to have a plan that you,
as a Hempstead, make a plan work, the plan and plan for the
unexpected. This is it feels like a program,
that's floating as much as anything else and that's what I
want to see this. Offseason is a Spelled out
during spring ball of how this is going to get fixed, you have
to tell us because you're trying to sell a fan base that
desperately wants you to do well and doesn't have a lot of belief
in it. No, it's the history of IU
football is is great. And the book, it's a book it in
once. And for those who are coming in
early, it's like, you're right with the Beau MacMillan stuff.
But, you know, there was unfortunate, it's kind of like
they missed the boat 40 or 50 years ago because they had a
period where they they just didn't invest in football when
other schools were and over the last 15-20 years.
No doubt Indiana University has up there there, you know,
financial support of football but it's like you're just now
catching up to being at the bottom of the Big Ten like, for
a while. There you were just so far
behind. Everybody else that just now
doing what everyone else is doing.
Get you back to level, but you've got to now the key you
have to atone for like 30 years of not you know, paying bills.
And that that's kind. Where they're at.
You mentioned going forward. You know I think we all expected
a good number of transfers. You're seeing the people go in
the transfer port for the first three of three of the first four
people who transfer quarterback set.
That's not great. But the one that I think we were
all expecting but that hurts was Des on mcculloh.
You watched him on defense and it's like that's one of those
guys are like my God. That is a talent.
Like, that's a really great player teams were running
things. Just always the opposite side of
the field. Old away from him again, not
surprised. But its tongue, you know, any
thoughts on just the people who are entering the portal and to
your point of again? This is where it's a tough
thing. You've got to sell this vision
of the future but it is really tough when you're losing all of
these guys that you had this year.
And again, teams can do at Michigan state has shown they
can they can go 0 to 100 with the portal.
It's not that it can't be done. Unfortunately, you know, so far
in the Allen tenure, we haven't had great results with it.
Some good hits here and there in the portal, I'm just curious
your thought of people who are in the portal and then how that
continues to kind of how you spin that into positive notes
for IU fans. Well, my view on that is, you
know, How much does it hurt to lose your best players from a
team that's won six games in two years.
I mean, you know, that's that, you know, they've won six games
in two years. So the McCulloch one hurts, but
it's not unexpected, it's not, you know, I mean, we know the
second that his dad left, you know, it was a thing that, you
know, hey was, it was surprising that the kids stuck around what
he did and I wish him the absolute best wherever he goes,
but he's a real talent and this is the new world of college.
Bald guys can go ahead and and be successful and then move on.
Now if you're Indiana, what you want to do is find those best
young players who maybe were overlooked and gain some
experience in, you know, just some non power 5 conferences and
make the move to, to bring them up.
But, you know, you know, losing guys to the portal.
It's not only just real life in college football now.
But again, you have a team that won six games in two years, And
so I mean we lost our best player from, you know, you lose
your best player from that. What did you lose because it
was, you know, so what he did you would have won four games in
the past two years is that men. I mean it doesn't really make a
make a huge impact based on where this program is.
It's just a program that has a lot of holes in a lot of places
and too. Rebuild it and get it to where
it needs to go. I is going to be an incredible
challenge for the program that has lost more games than any
team in any program in college football history and history
doesn't mean it is important to the fans and the media.
The players every eighteen-year-old that steps on
campus thinks he's going to be changing changing changing.
He doesn't care about it. So you are selling the future on
what it's going to be and that's why it to me again the vision of
what we're going to be. This is Is how it gets done has
to be really, really important, and really, really clear and
really, really realistic, too. Because it is, you know, turning
football programs around, is a battleship, not a speedboat.
It did takes time and so you want to see things that you
could build on in cell for the future.
And unfortunately, this past year, there wasn't a lot to
where you could say. Hey you know what?
Yeah, they're struggling now but in the future that defense looks
really good or that Fence looks really good.
Or this receiver is to real, playmaker, camper was solid.
I'll put it that way and I'm sorry that he got hurt and I
look forward to seeing him out there again but I we just didn't
see enough of him to say hey that's a game changer that you
got to worry about every single time out.
He's a superstar. There are no stars in this IU
football program period. And it's I say that, you know,
even with before McCulloch would went into the portal.
He's a freshman and so there's, there's potential there.
Anything you get out of a true freshman is bonus every single
time. There is not a single star on
this on this, in this football program.
And that's a real issue so quick hitter questions.
I've always wanted to ask you about doing the postgame.
What are the? What are the comments that you
get from fans? It's in the last year or two
that you think are like, what do you hear the most?
And then you think are the most you agree with the most and you
disagree with the most, when you hear from Hands in the post
game. Um, that's a good question on
the ones that I I'll tell you what, I think is the dumbest on.
Ya think that people say is when they say that Indiana has to
leave the Big Ten and, you know, they should join the Mac for
football and all that. It's like, you understand that
it is football, that drives the bus, it is period, everybody
loves their basketball at IU. But if you have one cell out of
Memorial Stadium, that is three full.
Sellouts at Assembly Hall, every single one.
And So, you know, if you have, you're able to sell out that
football stadium, even having one of the smallest football
stadiums in the Big Ten. If you sell out, that Stadium,
47, home games, eight home games, that's 350,000.
People, you're not getting that 420 basketball games.
That's not how it how that works.
So, in football is what drives the bus.
So that to me is the dumbest thing.
The other thing is just the constant drumbeat of it's the
coach. That's the problem.
It's a they need to fire the coach they need fire die.
I am very, very slow on firing the coach especially for IU
football in the reason is is we've been firing coaches every
couple of years for the past 100 years and it's not every time
you do that, it is such a huge issue and a huge jolt to the
system that it takes years to recover from that because you
have a new guy comes in, has a whole new way of going about
things. A whole new approach has to
build it. So it takes time Sometimes it's
necessary. I'm not saying it's not, but it
just, you know, it's everybody wants to fire everybody.
It's, that's the guy I think that to a certain extent,
coaches, get too much credit and they get too much criticism
because it's a two-part equation.
Players have to execute, you have to be out there doing and
you're learning the game. But you also when you walk onto
campus as a big 10 football player, you damn well, better
have a pretty good sense of How to play the game to begin with
if you're going to to be successful on the the thing that
I think that I agree with the most is just the frustrations
that people have with this program and how issues year over
year over year coach after coach after coach, I've been covering
the team for 18 Seasons now. And I have seen the same things
happen over and over and over again.
And there have been improvements along the way, the Stadium looks
a hell of a lot better now than it did in 2005.
The linemen are bigger the, the effort to, to bring in
nutritionists and improve the weight room and all of that have
all been great but the results aren't there.
And you can't put up a giant flag pole and say hey we really
help the football program to me. It really is just being you.
I agree that they you need to be realistic about what the issues
are. And I don't think Indiana has
always from a departmental standpoint been realistic or
approach things in the best way in terms of how can we fix
football. And that's, you know, there has
to be a top-to-bottom change in attitude when it comes to to
Indiana flip on. And by top to bottom, I mean,
president athletic, director, coaches players, fan base, all
of it, it has to be, it has to be a priority in a way that it
is one of the priorities. Authorities instead of the
priority that I think it deserves to be.
Yeah, if somebody wants to get on the post game show with a
call. What's the best way to do that?
I did besides going in that's all that's the only way.
I mean like is there a better question to get on?
Like is there a way to we don't we don't bring the questions
before and we have never had a show especially after a loss in
which we've just had the phones lines have been packed Non-Stop.
And all the way to the end. We're usually filling a segment
at the end without callers because, you know, and the other
way they could do it is, you know, tweet at me and I'll ask
the question on there. They have to be listening, but
they call look, there's a reason why basically the same two or
three guys are the first callers every week.
They don't get preferential treatment.
It's they pick up the phone and call and it is.
It's really that simple. Okay, good to know what.
There you go. I'm trying to get you collars
for the show. So where do we?
We go from here. But like what do you see the
Outlook, you know, for how, I don't know how to ask, I can't
even know how to turn around. Like, what do you see the
Outlook moving forward? Because it's, it is tough.
I mean, you know, you have the most losses in college football
for all the reasons we said, it's kind of a dire situation
that said you're going to bring back.
Basically the same coaching staff, you're going to bring
back some new players. You're still going to play in
the Big 10 East. That's also one of my other
favorite tropes. It drives me wild seems like
it's just not fair like you know has just said well that's who we
play. Throat.
Like we play that we are in that division, like we gotta win
those games but II agree with you on that.
Here's the challenge. Therefore, I you football and it
had it played out this year. So you had Indiana lost a couple
of very close games. You know, right before the by
you get to the by, you come back from that you have to pay play
Penn State and Ohio State and you're already struggling
mentally, because you've lost some, some, some tight games and
then you come back and you get Buy two of the better teams in
the country. And after you lose that to Ohio
State, you're out of Bowl, contention?
Yeah, to me every year, historically, Michigan Penn
State, Ohio State or losses before the season starts
historically? Yeah, you're going to on
occasion. They pulled off an upset, but
you have to go. Because you're going, you have
nine games after that, you have, you can do no worse than 6 and
3. In the other night games, you
have to win two thirds of your game, just to get Bowl eligible,
just the to have the bare minimum of what's considered a
success and on a football season, that's a real challenge.
Now, like you said, that's reality, that's life.
That's what you're dealing with. So there's not going to be any
changing bad. Yeah.
They realign their might, you know, USC and UCLA.
Maybe you don't have to deal with those three teams, but you
might have to deal with USC or UCLA and you are historically a
program that has really struggled.
So there's the reality, there's something to it, you know from a
mental standpoint of you know, taking you know, three games,
where convincing guys, they're going to go out there and beat
Michigan and Penn State. And Ohio State is a real
Challenge and and it's a of mental hurdle to get over. /,
but it's reality like you said that's life.
So you know there there is something to it but it's also
something that's not going away so you better damn well get used
to it. Yeah it's you said you've
covered all you for 18 years when kind of wrap on this I love
the rap on a positive note but it's hard it's hard Without You
football. The the frustrating thing
watching IU football as we both have for you know a lot of time
is you know, coaches change, athletic, directors, change,
presidents chain so you can't even pin it on any of these.
But it's like everything else stays the same with IU football
and then you see other programs are able to break through and
have blips. Like Illinois doesn't have an
inherently better recruiting base than we do, but yet this
year, they were, you know, eight and four or whatever they were
being in 2002. I think they made, you know, the
Sugar Bowl, you know, we just see /.
Do you know, they beat Ohio State a couple of years ago
there in the Big Ten West Championship?
I know it's the west but that's fine.
Like Northwestern has their spikes, you know, Marilyn has
seized relate with a pop off. You know, Michigan State made it
to the playoff one year in our division and none of those
schools. I think have inherently, you
know, maybe slightly better stadiums is not like they have,
you know, it's not I'm not talking about Ohio State Penn
State or Michigan here, even Wisconsin.
Like right every other school and something Galen brought up
in one of his last pods, that was really, he has a spreadsheet
called IU football history, just sucks or something.
But it's like you look over the last 20 years teams that have
beaten, Ohio, State, and everyone's done it.
Yeah, except for us. Yes, and your team.
Be Michigan. It's like, you know, Maryland's
beat him, two or three times, you know, pain produce got him a
couple times. I don't play him every time and
it's that's the part that gets frustrating.
It's like the Ice Age, just comes in and out.
Like, everything, changes, everything happens.
But like we still can't beat Ohio State.
And that's, that's the frustrating part.
And to me it's like that's the mentality change that has to
happen. Is, you are 100%, right?
And I agree with a look at the schedule every year.
It's like loss loss loss to Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State.
And we move on to a rest of our schedule.
We've got to change that. We've got to change that.
Like beating Ohio State. While not easy, and not
something. We're going to do every year
cannot be this. Once every 50 year Herculean
task that happens, you know, other teams can do it.
It can be done by programs all across the Spectrum and there's
almost like a, I don't know, there's a mentality that sense
in, with fans when everything changes and, you know, to your
point, they may have a coach, you will get new coaches.
Like we've had nine 10 coaches in the 40 years, nobody's
beating Ohio State. So it's not like they could, but
it's like this is where, I don't know what the answer is and it
gets frustrating. When I see every other program
kind of pop off and to be like, Pruitt, Illinois, the perfect
examples because they don't inherently have anything
different than Indiana has. Like they're produced fighting
the exact same territory. They've had were Seasons than we
have, they probably have a worse.
If not similar stadium to us. There's nothing that that makes
us different except for the fact, they're able to pop off.
So not really. A question, they're just more of
a comment and I'll let you react to that and then we'll try and
find a positive way to end this. Consider that there is no, I you
coach, who's left for a different job since Sam wyche.
Yeah, nobody Indiana hasn't put it together and then taken away
there and I and that's and that's I'm so happy you meant
that something that I've talked about, like, when Kevin Wilson a
little bit of success. People are like, oh my God, what
if we lose them? And I do think that happened
with Allen a little bit as well, I stand by the extension, they
gave him. It was the right thing to do at
the right. I'm not saying that was wrong by
people got this, like, oh my God, what if we lose in Alabama?
Or, you know, one of those will all burn.
It's like that's good. Like that means we're doing the
right thing. Like we are not a program where
this is a destination job yet. Like in the fact that we had
assistance leave for head coaching jobs, that's great.
But these are all things that need to happen and honestly we
need to have a coach hired by somebody else to move up the
pecking order because that is a sign that our program is moving
forward. So I've always been on that
corner that Like we should let it go.
My only thing with the Allen contract, I will say that they
might have made a mistake. Is you had to give that buyout?
You had to give that guaranteed money.
Everything you did was right. I like the contract the time I
stand by it, but there is a part with IU, where it does feel like
at times. They want to play with the big
boys but then they don't when it comes time to pay the piper.
And what I mean by that is if Mel Tucker has another really
bad season or he goes to and 10. I guarantee you that They're
going to be really close to buying him out, even though it's
going to be a gargantuan number. This happens at Notre Dame, like
screw it, we'll just pay off Weiss and you know, 15, 20
years. There does come a point with IU
where it's like if you're going to sign the big boy guaranteed
contract like the big boys and pay a coach in the top 30 in the
country. The flip side is if things don't
work, you got to buy them out and like, yes, it sucks like
where you going to find 30 million dollars.
I don't know, but that's what the big boys do.
And that's always the struggle I had with Indiana's like they
have one foot in the deep water but they have one foot in the
shallow water and it's always when it comes time and I'm not
saying they should buy. I'm not saying they should or
shouldn't, but it's like the fact that it's like, we know
it's not going to happen. I think that's a problem.
Well, that, you know, with Alan, you mentioned the coordinators?
I will not accept the idea that Tom Allen doesn't know what he's
doing as a coach or doesn't know what he's doing when it raises
hires, because he has hired well, in the past guys have hit
and it can't be over. He just got lucky.
No, it's not. That simple.
It's not that simple. Kalin tube or was a guy At that
he got that was tremendously successful cane Womack.
So tremendously successful have moved on.
I did they did their Replacements enjoy the same
success? Maybe not but it it wasn't a
matter of him. Getting lucky just like he
wasn't getting lucky and in turning that defense around his
first year as defensive coordinator, he knows what he's
doing in terms of some of that stuff.
It doesn't always work. What you're what you're selling
guys. Don't always buy and So that to
me is a challenge with that, you talked about mentality as well.
And I am a big believer that that Penn State went over
Indiana's, win over Penn State in 2020.
Doesn't happen. If fans are in the building,
what I mean by that is people forget that they remember,
Pennock stretching and maybe or maybe not hitting, that pylon
official said he hit it, so it counts.
The, the, the, the Takeaway on that is Indiana was Down, Andy
Indiana, had to had given up on the lead.
If fans are there the vibe in the building changes because it
is, here we go again. We've seen this before, here we
go and everybody tenses up but fans weren't there and I'm not,
don't get me wrong. I am not blaming fans.
I am blaming humans for how they react in that that situation and
so when things start to go poorly, The energy in the
building can be a very much. So here we go again, we saw it
with the defense over and over again.
Where Indiana would get a couple of stops but then the offense
would come out and do three and out a quick three and out at
that, I'm that's a whole nother other thing there.
But quick, three and out. You could see the defense go out
there and kind of hang their head.
Like, here we go again. We've seen this at this before
the psychology, the mentality of all of it.
How do you learn to win? If you don't win, it's tough.
Tough. It's really really difficult and
so you know, it's how do you fix it?
That's the the 100 million dollar question, isn't it?
Now, how do you fix it? And the, the I don't know the
answer to it. But what I'm also concerned
about is, nobody knows the answer to it because we've seen
it done so many different ways. And I mean, look at the
blueprint has always been kind of Wisconsin and Kansas State in
redshirting guys and and building from the top, those
days are over baby there, it's over.
It is, you know, an important changes everything with that.
So you can't just No money at it.
It's not as simple as that, you know.
It's, you can't just get a better weight room and they
were, you know, throw a bunch of money at the coaches because the
same people that are saying Indiana's being cheap when it
comes to their assistants are going to be there on a Saturday
afternoon screaming. I can't believe this guy is
getting paid three million dollars for that.
What a waste of money. What's Indiana doing?
So I mean it's, you have to perform and The biggest problem
is that Indiana is spinning, its Wheels.
It is stuck in the mud right now in terms of momentum, because
there's not a lot to build off of over the past couple of
years. And that's why, again, the step
one for this coaching staff is to spell out how they what their
vision is, and it can't be platitudes.
It can't be. It has to be specific.
Hey, this is what we're going to do.
It's not. We're going to be gritty.
We're going to be tough. We're going to be.
Nope, don't I don't want to hear that.
It is, we're building. Hang around a dual threat
quarterback. We are, you know, to this is our
vision. It has to be really specific
because you're not just selling recruits.
You are selling fans. You are selling people to get
out to the stadium and I think that that has to start in Spring
ball so I'll leave you on this. New kind of just answered it but
you know what do you want to see this offseason?
That'll make you more positive about next season and so for me
I will say I would like to see Alan take a step away.
From being defensive coordinator and just be the head coach.
I think as it's honestly nothing it didn't work well this year
but I mean to me defensive coordinator is a job.
Head coach is a job and one person trying to do both.
I think that's very tough. And the head coach in Indiana is
Tough Enough. You don't need to have another
full-time job on the docket. So to me, I would love to see
that be something that takes place where Alan at least sees
this as like. All right, I've got to hand this
over. Like I just got to Trust that
they can do. So for me, that's my answer, I'm
just curious. What would you see this Austin's
would say, all right, I'm getting more excited about next
year. It just has to, like I said it's
a vision. It is a you spell out what we're
going to do to fix this, you know this this is our plan.
It's a you have to have some kind of some kind of plan but I
wanted spelled out of what it is, we're going to be a team
that is going to, you know, have a dual threat guy and we're
going to have multiple guys that could could run the same
offense. You Have just you know have
completely different offenses depending on who the quarterback
is with the defensive coordinator stuff.
I totally get it. He was it happens all the time
where a defensive coordinator offensive Corner did they get
lifted head coach and they try to do both and they can't do it
because it's just it's they're completely different jobs.
I even understood him taking over the defense again because
running the defense has what got him to where he was and he
wanted to trust somebody who was doing it to do it the way he He
wanted to so I even understand that but I do understand your
point, those are different jobs, that's why, you know, your
teams, have it because it has to be a manager job.
And you know it's there has been a disconnect but that defense
the past couple of years that is disturbing because again, you
need an identity and your head coaches identity was defense,
you need to rebuild that. You have to have to say, we're
going to be. These are the steps we're not
like a five-point plan or anything, but you Have a Clear
Vision in a spelled out Vision because where we're at right now
you know you could have guys get to talk about buyouts and all
that you got to set yourself a goal for it and say this is how
we're going to do it. And you these are my benchmarks
and it isn't winning wins or losses but a benchmarks.
And you know, if we don't hit them then you're right.
Somebody else should be the head coach here.
But this is the plan going forward.
This is how we're going to fix it, and watch us make it happen.
Yep. Well Ken, I appreciate you
coming. A on man.
It's been fun. We got to do this once a year at
the end of the season. I'm have recap and definitely
check out can on the postgame call-in show next football
season maybe you and Joe Smith. Again not sure who your host
your co-host is going to be but I always just hope they bring me
back. Yeah I mean you gotta get to 20
years if you follow me on Twitter at K by cough b ik o FF
Ken, always a pleasure, appreciate you coming on.
And until next time for everybody I thank you all for
listening. This is Scott for Crimson cast.
Signing off.