1 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,800 You're listening to the Back Home network presented by Home 2 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:21,320 Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson Cask Ale 3 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,800 and Clavier joining you. It is mid-july, mid January. 4 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:26,680 It's not mid. July. 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,480 You've walked outside. You know it's not mid-july, but 6 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,840 no, it's 23rd of January. Big day, a podcast here on 7 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,200 Crimson Cast. We've got a podcast coming up 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,680 today right now. This one you're listening to 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,880 Zach Osterman of The Indie Star, where we talk about the general 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,080 My ways of IU basketball and what exactly we should be 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:50,800 thinking about it and the historical perspectives and so 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,680 on and so forth. We'll also have Jared Morris 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,720 coming up on a future episode to talk about much of the same 14 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,680 topics. It's by week for IU Basketball, 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,320 so we might as well delve into the big stuff, right? 16 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,320 This is the good time to do it. So we'll have all of that coming 17 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:09,360 up here soon. But first, just a reminder, 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,240 we're on sub stack. If you haven't subscribed, 19 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,560 crimsoncast.substack.com free For those of you who want to 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,800 subscribe, get all of the podcast that we produce about 21 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,680 Indiana Basketball, Indiana Football, Indiana Women's 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,080 Basketball. We send them all out. 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,960 We're going to have a big digest coming up this week, which will 24 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:31,360 have not just the two shows that I referenced, but it'll also 25 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,520 have The Crimson Cast Women's Basketball Show with Amanda 26 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,840 Foster and Kevin Vera. That'll be coming up relatively 27 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,640 soon. You'll get that for free in your 28 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,800 e-mail. It'll have links to iTunes or I 29 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,080 think whatever it is. Apple Podcast these days. 30 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,120 Spotify. There's also AVIP option. 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:53,200 We like to record extra material for the folks that want to chip 32 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,320 in a little bit financially for the podcast. 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,440 So we sometimes will do things about IU, we'll sometimes do 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,360 things about the Pacers, we'll sometimes do things about 35 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,520 restaurants, a little bit of everything. 36 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,960 It's added value, but you're no no obligation. 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,280 We just want you to subscribe to the free community so we can get 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,600 you our podcast without you having to go to social media to 39 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:14,400 find them. So again, 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,000 crimsoncast.substack.com be sure to check those out. 41 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:23,560 Also, I would like to remind everybody that we are part of 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,640 the Back Home network and the Back Home network is brought to 43 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:28,800 you by Home Field apparel. Your place to go for the finest 44 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,360 in college fashions, the softest fabrics, the coolest designs, 45 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,120 all kinds of good stuff coming down the Pike right now from 46 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,120 Home Field apparel. And they'll be new stuff coming 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,360 out for IU very soon. They just dropped the first ever 48 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,280 King Spud T-shirt which commemorates the short lived 49 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,920 trophy between Idaho and Idaho State which you know, if you're 50 00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:57,720 in just a casual college sports fan, I'm you might hear me speak 51 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,640 those words and you'd say, what is this guy on like? 52 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:03,840 Seriously, why would I want a picture of a potato statue? 53 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,400 And yet, when you see the T-shirt, it immediately becomes 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,720 clear why you want a picture of a potato statue. 55 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,840 It's like if Marine Layer started making college sports 56 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,320 apparel for Idaho like that. That's the level of design cool 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,480 that you've got going on with this. 58 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:24,120 The folks at home Field Apparel, they just don't miss. 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,360 So be sure to follow them on social media. 60 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,600 Go get yourself that King Spud tea. 61 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,360 Go get yourself that refresh for IU. 62 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:34,040 Go get some Nevada stuff. Go get some Auburn stuff. 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,960 Whatever you're looking for. They've got it. 64 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:37,760 All right. We're going to go ahead and get 65 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:42,640 to our guest for this episode, Zach Osterman from the Indy 66 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,840 Star. We talked with Zach at length 67 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,200 about a variety of things. I don't know if we necessarily 68 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,400 settled on anything definitive, but some good comments, I think 69 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,720 about both the micro and macro issues regarding IU basketball. 70 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,760 We also talked a little IU football at the end. 71 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:01,280 So here we go. And joining us on the show is 72 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,600 Zach Osterman, IU Insider for the Indy Star. 73 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,040 It's been a while since we had you on Zach. 74 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:07,200 Good to see you again. How you doing? 75 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,720 Am I going to get in trouble for not wearing home field? 76 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,200 No. Can I just go grab some home 77 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,200 field and is Connor going to pull his sponsorship or what are 78 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:18,560 we doing here? I think we'll be OK. 79 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,720 I I can't speak for your own situation, but will be since I 80 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,640 am indeed actually wearing home field while we do this podcast, 81 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,600 as I am contractually. Obligated to do. 82 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,400 Not really good. I don't want to get you in 83 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:31,080 trouble. I would. 84 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:32,240 I can. I can handle. 85 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,880 I can handle it. I can handle at home field 86 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,040 apparel on Twitter. I really. 87 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,280 Do appreciate the concern. Thank you. 88 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,640 So anyway, let's talk. We're going to talk to some IU 89 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,560 basketball, might touch a little bit on some football 90 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:50,120 developments as well, but it's been a rough season for Indiana 91 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,040 in some ways. Indiana coming off that loss at 92 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,040 Wisconsin? That didn't really make anybody 93 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,640 particularly happy. Coming off the loss to Purdue, 94 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,560 which definitely didn't make anybody happy. 95 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,600 And facing a week off for everybody to talk about those 96 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:10,080 things before they travel to a revitalized Illinois program 97 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,120 which probably won't make people happy either. 98 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,520 You I'm. Not sure I'd use that exact word 99 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,680 describing what's going on in Illinois, but we'll leave that. 100 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,800 Well, I wasn't even referring to that 'cause they were playing 101 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:23,960 pretty well without Tara Chan Junior. 102 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,200 But your point is well taken. No, it's it's certainly a a 103 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:33,080 curious situation over there. But no, Indiana looks like a 104 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,280 team that is a few notches below the actual tournament caliber 105 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:42,360 teams in the conference. So we wanted to talk a little 106 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,240 bit about where that leaves everything because you had a 107 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,680 piece in the Star last week in the aftermath of the Purdue lost 108 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,720 that talked about, you know, what are fair expectations for 109 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,280 this particular team? There's a lot of cultural items 110 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,320 that fall into this in terms of what Indiana basketball hasn't 111 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,600 done over the course of the last 25 to 30 years that certainly 112 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,560 filter into it. So let's just start there. 113 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,360 I mean, your take on how people are reacting to this Indiana 114 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,840 basketball program right now. And as we sit on the precipice 115 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:17,760 of a remaining January and February that might not go that 116 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,600 great for this program, how do you see that atmosphere kind of 117 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,800 playing out? Yeah, I mean I've seen it 118 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,680 before. You have two it, you know it, it 119 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,920 can get. I think toxic is a fair word. 120 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,000 I don't think, I don't think that's an unfair word. 121 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,680 It's difficult because there's there's the micro and there's 122 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:48,120 the macro in this and and in both I think you have some real 123 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,240 tension. So in the micro on the one hand 124 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,720 you have a team that has some undeniably talented players. 125 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,960 You know Kalel Ware is probably going to be a first round draft 126 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:03,040 pick. Malik Renew I would say is 127 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:08,480 trending toward maybe second team all big 10 kind of you know 128 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,680 status if if we're talking about just where he falls in the 129 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,320 firmament of the league. McKenzie and Bako I think is is 130 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,560 starting to hit that ceiling a little bit more and and there's 131 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,440 you know it's it's not perfect but I mean you look at it, the 132 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,440 only two games he hasn't scored in double figures since 133 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,640 Thanksgiving are Nebraska and Ohio State. 134 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,560 And then that Nebraska game if remember he serves part of that 135 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:31,760 was a little bit of foul trouble. 136 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,880 He's shooting the ball a lot better. 137 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,400 He's looking more and more like an offensive mismatch. 138 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,960 It's just taking him longer to get there than we expected. 139 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,040 And then if you even look at you know for example at Trey 140 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,240 Galloway probably playing some of the best basketball of his 141 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,840 career certainly at least at the offensive end of the floor the 142 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,480 shot coming around a little bit he's assisting a lot better 143 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,840 etcetera. But on the other hand the 144 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,360 results are not going well And and I think it is worth saying 145 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,920 and I heard you say this and I I'm. 146 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:07,040 I know you heard me say this in the preseason that this was 147 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:12,480 always a possible outcome for this team that that you know a 148 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,400 lot of teams. You know very few teams get 149 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,080 better for losing what Indiana lost after last season 150 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,200 particularly all at once, that much production, that much 151 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,160 experience that much institutional knowledge. 152 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,440 I've gotten some weird blowback at times for saying Indiana's a 153 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,440 young team, they're 220th on Ken Palm and Division One experience 154 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,760 under 200 and 63rd and minutes continuity that that qualifies 155 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:45,280 as young. And I think we always knew that 156 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,840 there there was the capacity for this team to be something like 157 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,520 this, a team that wasn't very good away from home, a team that 158 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:54,160 wasn't very connected defensively. 159 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,640 There have been some things that have been surprising or or at 160 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,480 least you know, probably from Indiana's perspective, 161 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,160 disappointing. And I'm, I'm confident we'll get 162 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,360 into some of those. But in the micro, you kind of 163 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,680 have this push and pull of a team that when you look at it on 164 00:09:06,680 --> 00:09:10,600 the floor, you say there is a lot of individual talent here 165 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,320 and yet it cannot sew itself into something cohesive and 166 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,840 productive and successful consistently. 167 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,800 And there's no arguing that. I mean you know, they've lost 168 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,440 four of six since the turn of the year. 169 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,920 They have one true Rd. win all season or just one. 170 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,600 What I mean I guess two wins away from home. 171 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,080 If we're talking about, I know Gambridge Field House it's 172 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,120 technically a neutral site. Kim Pom categorizes it semi home 173 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,720 because it's basically a homecourt advantage for Indiana, 174 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,040 especially in a game like Harvard. 175 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:42,960 The only team they've beaten away from homeless seasons. 176 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,280 Michigan, Michigan's terrible just to be quite frank. 177 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,040 They, you know I mean if you want to talk about teams that 178 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,440 that have managed to kind of fall further below you know 179 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,160 maybe preseason expectations in Indiana and Michigan's were 180 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,400 probably lower than Indiana's. But the two and five in the 181 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,520 conference there's 7:00 and 11:00 that they don't look good 182 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,120 at all. And so there's the micro push 183 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,680 and pull of this team where you you watch it and you think I 184 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:07,600 just think there's more talent than what this team is 185 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,600 performing at the moment. And I I, I said this to our good 186 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,440 friend Mike Glass got on his radio show last week. 187 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,160 I think this team is closer than maybe the general perception 188 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,880 thinks it is to realizing some of that potential. 189 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:29,160 I'm also pretty convinced it never will and so that like so 190 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,360 it's kind of like again this is that that weird push and pull 191 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,160 where I think they're because I think part of the issue is and 192 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,480 again this is the micro and then I I I do want to get to the 193 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,840 macro because the both of these color the discussion. 194 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,840 I think the issue is that it's it's like the team. 195 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,160 It's like the the problem is this team is like 5 to 10% away 196 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,000 on like 8 different things rather than 25% away on one 197 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,040 thing or 15 to 20% away on two things where it's like, hey 198 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,080 these are big time flaws. But if we can spend an intensive 199 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,480 short period just drilling down into either how to fix this or 200 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,760 how to mitigate it, it'll be OK. Like 3 point shooting. 201 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,800 Not so much last year but a couple years ago where Indiana 202 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,120 district figured OK what we do is we just build an offense 203 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,400 route not taking them and then we just defend for our lives and 204 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,400 that will get us over the line. And it did barely, but it did. 205 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:19,640 I think this team, the problem with this team is there's too 206 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,840 many shortcomings, not all of which maybe are as far away from 207 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,640 sort of an adequate level as they need to be. 208 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,000 But the problem is if you have too many things to fix, it just 209 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,440 kind of becomes overwhelming for a group that is young, that is 210 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,720 is younger. When you consider, I mean again, 211 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,320 you talk about their their their lower ranked nationally and 212 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,240 minutes continuity than the Art of Vision One experience. 213 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,360 So they're not, they're not just young, they're young together. 214 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,280 Obviously there's questions about leadership and it just 215 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,880 feels like, you know, midstream this stuff just isn't going to 216 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,280 get fixed. Then there is the macro, which 217 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,080 is kind of the, the thing that maybe I find a little bit more 218 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:58,160 fascinating as somebody who did not grow up with IU basketball 219 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,200 but has certainly observed it lived in this ecosystem in the 220 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,400 the the IU sphere for a very long time. 221 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,680 And and as a very sort of engaged observer, obviously, 222 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:17,400 which is sort of the the surprise, for example, that Mike 223 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,640 Woodson has not earned more benefit of the doubt because of 224 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,240 what he did over his first two years. 225 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,000 From what I perceive anyway to be at least the more vocal, the 226 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,040 more engaged sections of the fan base. 227 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,680 Especially in a season where I think everyone would have 228 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:39,080 recognized in let's say May or June when nobody's blood is up 229 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,720 about Purdue being ranked #2 in the country and coming into 230 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,680 Assembly Hall and everyone's just looking at things in a very 231 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,960 sort of 10,000 foot way and agreed, yeah, it, it might be a 232 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,840 a bit of a rebuild year a bit of a re like a starting of a new 233 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,840 cycle. So there's in the macro, I'm I'm 234 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,720 surprised that there's not more sort of, hey, this is the this 235 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,360 is trending to be a tough season. 236 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,760 But there's still been some good work done and maybe given time 237 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,440 that foundation can support further, you know, building 238 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,640 upward against what I completely understand, which is the fan 239 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,920 base. People always say to me, people 240 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,120 out, people in the Big 10, people in the national media. 241 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:26,200 They say that Indiana fans expect too much, that Indiana 242 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,680 fans are too demanding or too entitled and that's where like 243 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,880 their perception is that that's where what they see as sometimes 244 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,960 unrealistic or unreasonable expectations come from. 245 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,880 I say I don't think that. I think Indiana fans fear that 246 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:48,160 if they don't try to hold those expectations up, eventually 247 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,160 they'll slip and eventually the program will get to a place 248 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,240 where maybe it can't get back to that place that Indiana fans 249 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,840 fear. And this doesn't always manifest 250 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:58,480 itself healthily. I understand that. 251 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:04,400 But Indiana fans fear that if they don't constantly sort of 252 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,840 remind everyone that this should be the expectation at Indiana, 253 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,320 then at some point because of how long it's been since those 254 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,760 expectations were consistently met, maybe the expectations will 255 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:22,960 slip and then that suddenly calcifies and then the floor is 256 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,600 lower. And so I understand you know 257 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,680 sometimes the more existential concerns I guess if that if 258 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,760 that's if that makes sense and that's the macro push and pull 259 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,240 of like where the where the program is in like a long term 260 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,360 direction versus what I under where I understand the angst and 261 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,040 the anxiety comes from in a fan base that has had to adure a lot 262 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,640 more of this than history says it should have over the last 25 263 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,680 years. Yeah, I mean, I think there's 264 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,880 there's some. Good thoughts in all of that. 265 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,760 I mean, I'll start with the macro and kind of work back to 266 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,960 the micro. I I think on the macro front, 267 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,640 each of these vintages of IU basketball over the course of 268 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,960 the last maybe 15 to 20 years where the disappointments have 269 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,000 come in, it's kind of been for different reasons. 270 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,920 You know, I think people, people were very patient at the 271 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,080 beginning of the Korean era. They had this sudden rush of 272 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,320 success and then it kind of went away and there wasn't really a 273 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,560 good explanation as to why it went away. 274 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,400 And you know, when you talk about like you're surprised 275 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,240 Woodson hasn't gotten more of a reservoir of patience. 276 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,320 I think part of the issue is that's a great example of a 277 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,920 situation where people were patient, there were some initial 278 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,520 dividends and then success just was very fleeting. 279 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,680 And that I think has people paranoid about as much as 280 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,040 anything else. Because if if a team and a 281 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,640 program look I can have the head of steam that that 1213 season 282 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,720 era seem to have under creen. If all of that could disappear 283 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,280 relatively quickly, then it kind of feels like everything is 284 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,560 temporal, you know, under Archie, I think a lot of people 285 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,920 were expecting there to be greater heights reached 286 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,200 gradually and again. I think even with the early 287 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,760 losses and the embarrassing losses, people were patient 288 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,880 until it just became very clear that things weren't. 289 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,560 Going in the right direction that the the recruiting was 290 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,520 never going to be good enough, that the on court play wasn't 291 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,000 going to be good enough and then things cratered and it's like 292 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,240 well now we have to start over with Woodson. 293 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,000 You know, it's interesting because I've thought about this 294 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,560 a lot. It's it is not nothing to take 295 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,360 IU to back-to-back NCAA tournaments at this point, which 296 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,840 in and of itself is sad. And I think for a lot of people 297 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,040 it's hard to get their heads wrapped around that from a macro 298 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,600 perspective. So for some folks they're like, 299 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,800 that's great, Mike, thanks for doing that. 300 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,480 That's like the minimum expectation that we feel like we 301 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,520 should have here at IU and that we get told that we should have. 302 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,640 If you're going to talk about banners and championships and 303 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,600 you know being a blue blood which is essentially the entire 304 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,079 marketing effort of of the university surrounding the 305 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:09,280 basketball program. The idea that this year was 306 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,240 going to be a step back, you know, a retooling, yes, but I 307 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,040 don't think people were prepared for that step back to be. 308 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,800 You may not make the NIT versus, well, you might be like a a 309 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,079 double digit seed you might have to scrap for an at large bid. 310 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:27,880 And what you've seen I think out of this team over the course of 311 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,120 the season is when they've been on big stages they've mostly 312 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,200 crumbled, The Kansas game probably being the one 313 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,600 exception. They don't look up to the task 314 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:36,760 at all. They look like they're getting 315 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,920 outplayed by most of the actual good teams that they play and 316 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:46,920 what is happening on the floor for IU fans who are watching 317 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,720 programs that were in the dumps not too long ago, like UConn, 318 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,120 figure out how to suddenly play modern basketball, how to 319 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:56,360 recruit the right types of players, how to get them to play 320 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:58,480 in a system. I think a lot of those people 321 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,480 are just like, why is it so difficult for Indiana basketball 322 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,440 to get to that point? And I don't necessarily think it 323 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,720 matters who the coach would be at this point. 324 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,680 It would be the same reaction regardless and I think to some 325 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,680 degree regardless of what had happened the last couple of 326 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,200 years where and I'll I'll let you talk after this even though 327 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,120 Indiana has it was a four seed last year was a protected seed 328 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,280 was second in the Big 10. That was a season that should 329 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,960 have been celebrated. I think a lot of people forget 330 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,840 or or they forget in this conversation that was a tough 331 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,120 team to watch. A lot of times they kind of 332 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:33,920 gritted out wins They they were not terribly elegant in the way 333 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,160 they were winning. Trace Jackson Davis was elegant 334 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,040 in the way that he was doing things, but it often times was a 335 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,120 bit of a struggle. I think aesthetically for people 336 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:42,920 to get their heads wrapped around like this is how we're 337 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,040 winning basketball games. So all of those things I think 338 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,960 kind of fit into the equation. But it is interesting because 339 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,320 it's not just one single factor, certainly. 340 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,600 Yeah. And I guess if we're, if we're 341 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,600 staying on the macro, like my comparison is or not my 342 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,440 comparison, my, my hypothetical is basically where would Archie 343 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,160 Miller be in year three if years one and two had gone like that 344 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,080 because I don't think he would be here now. 345 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,960 I think there are factors that go into that. 346 00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,040 I think one of the big ones is, and again this just sort of 347 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:19,520 speaks to a a, a a much sort of more historical context that 348 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,160 ultimately no one can control until it is sort of arrested or 349 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,080 rebutted or buttressed or whatever. 350 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,560 Which is every coach that fails in Indiana is going to leave a 351 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,520 tougher job for the next coach because the next coach is 352 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:41,280 probably going to get less time, less, excuse me, less, you know, 353 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,160 patience. Because the again the fear is 354 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,640 going to be that at some point if we just if you just keep sort 355 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,480 of cycling through and and giving everybody the same amount 356 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,320 of time and everybody's saying this and everybody's saying 357 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:57,640 that, then the standards will slip and at some point you will 358 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,800 be happy to just say hey great, two NCAA tournament appearances 359 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,560 in your first two seasons. That's brilliant. 360 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,600 Here's an 8 year contract. With a a God buyout and there's 361 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,600 nothing to worry about. On the other hand, you know and 362 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,200 I like No2 comparisons are perfect. 363 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,440 Please understand I'm. I'm completely aware of of that. 364 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:22,080 But like you know the flip side kind of conversation is and I'm 365 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,560 getting on Kim pong while we talk. 366 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,960 You know if you if you hold Jay right to that standard does he 367 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,200 make it this season for Ed Villanova which he is when he 368 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,280 makes his first Sweet 16 much less. 369 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,120 You know how long does he last at Hofstra where he doesn't make 370 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:41,840 the NCAA tournament until year four. 371 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,080 I think Tony Bennett makes one NCAA tournament in his first 372 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:47,320 Four Seasons And you want to talk about. 373 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,960 I mean like I have. I have. 374 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,080 I have an old friend who went to Virginia, a high school friend 375 00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:56,960 who like to this day still doesn't love Tony Bennett. 376 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,080 Arguing is basically just and I just don't want to watch that 377 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,160 style of basketball. It's like if you won a national 378 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,880 title and it was great and it's fun to beat Duke. 379 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,320 But like the the the other part of it is it can be a real grind 380 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:14,160 when it's not winning. And so that's like, I'm not sort 381 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,080 of saying you just have to be patient. 382 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,000 Although I do probably tend to be one of those people just sort 383 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,520 of like like advocate for patience over you know just sort 384 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,200 of like let three and change and three and change and just keep 385 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,840 throwing something at the wall till it works. 386 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:32,640 But it's it's difficult to sort of say, I mean like for all the 387 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,640 world there was nobody thought Archie Miller was going to fail 388 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:35,920 in Indiana. And I include me in that. 389 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,000 I was I I talked to people when he was hired. 390 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,400 I was around him. I I watched what he was trying 391 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,320 to do with that team when he was trying to do recruiting. 392 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:45,880 I thought this is going to work. There's nothing about this that 393 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,240 doesn't tick the boxes in Indiana game four years, and I 394 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,360 would argue three of his four years and his team was worse 395 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,560 than it was the year before. The only year where I would say 396 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,120 they improved was the year that they would have made the NCAA 397 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,120 tournament as a probably a nine or a ten seed in 2020. 398 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,400 So it's like it's a hard conversation to have, but it is 399 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:13,800 at very least to me, at minimum. It's sort of reflective of kind 400 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,640 of this idea, this, this reality that settles in around a program 401 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:23,800 where I do think that every coach is, is basically, for lack 402 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,040 of a better way of putting this, a more artful way of putting 403 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:30,920 this. Every coach is, is not only 404 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,280 having to sort of solve their own problems, but they're also 405 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,400 kind of having to carry more of the baggage of the previous 406 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,440 coaching tenure. Each one that does that makes 407 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,800 like each one that failed. And obviously Tom Crean was the 408 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,480 big example. There were NCAA tournament 409 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,840 sanctions, but I think Archie Miller had to shoulder some of 410 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,040 Tom Crean's failure. And I think Mike Woodson has had 411 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,680 the shoulder even more of Archie Miller's. 412 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,040 And I think if Woodson goes without success, the next, the 413 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,800 next coach will have to do the same thing because it does 414 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,440 become, I think, sort of a negative cycle. 415 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,960 I think it can be I. Can be. 416 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,280 And look, I think there's some, there's probably some truth to 417 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,080 that among certain aspects of the fan base. 418 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,400 I do wonder with Woodson, I think part of the angst that 419 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,080 you're seeing this year and part of the negative reactions and 420 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,560 some of the over to the top stuff is less tied into that 421 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,680 baggage and more to the perception, fair or unfair, that 422 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,240 Woodson doesn't really have a direction for this roster and 423 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,200 the and and the recruiting in the program. 424 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,680 And yes, you know, they've pulled in a higher caliber of 425 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,000 top level recruit over the course of the three years he's 426 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,920 been here. Or you know, you throw some 427 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,360 portal people in there as well then in generally what Archie 428 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:46,640 Miller was pulling in generally. But it hasn't really solved the 429 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,840 problems that people are seeing on the floor. 430 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:52,240 You know, they they lose the boogie flamed recruitment, you 431 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,440 know, around the same time that they get the Liam Mcneely 432 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,280 recruitment. And this comes on the heels of 433 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,320 IU not bringing in a guard in the portal, even though that was 434 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,320 a perceived area where they didn't have depth. 435 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,680 They don't get the development among guards that they needed in 436 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,840 order to be more competitive this year. 437 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,200 People are now looking at the roster and saying I'm really 438 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,880 concerned about the direction this is going because it seems 439 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,080 to be centered around this style of basketball That, to go back 440 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,320 to your friend's comment about Virginia isn't that attractive 441 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,880 to watch. Doesn't seem to be having the 442 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,160 type of effect that's elevating IU into the top 25 regularly. 443 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,040 And if you're looking at a Khalil Ware likely leaving for 444 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,720 the NBA almost certainly after this season, if you're looking 445 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240 at a Malik Renew who might be on the borderline, it's like what 446 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,000 is, what is the plan? You know, I I think people were 447 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,560 generally predisposed to be patient with Woodson and would 448 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,040 generally even be willing to be patient through this stretch of 449 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,560 of losses to superior competition. 450 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,440 But there is a real kind of foreboding atmosphere around the 451 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,400 program right now that what's being done to address the issues 452 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,040 isn't really sufficient. Now there's rumors that, you 453 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,680 know, another recruitment that people thought was going well 454 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,200 may not actually happen. You know, I mean there's 455 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,320 there's, there's the kinds of things that create additional 456 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,120 dread around what's already there. 457 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,880 And so I'm having a hard time parsing how much of it is the 458 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,160 past and how much of it is a real concern about the. 459 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,600 Future based upon what people are seeing in the present. 460 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:23,960 And I don't think all of that is unfair. 461 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,680 Although the one thing about like the Derrick Queen 462 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,640 recruitment is you can't complain about like this sort of 463 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,640 slow, too big court spacing style of play and then also get 464 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:33,960 mad. When no, no, no, your. 465 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,720 Front court might be. It's not there. 466 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,760 It's that there doesn't seem to be another plan right now on the 467 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,280 recruiting trail. I I I understand that to to a 468 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,320 certain extent and it's it is a lot harder. 469 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:49,480 And this is just like a a a general observation like 470 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,040 conversations about roster building are so much harder than 471 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:56,080 they used to be because like it's it just it doesn't. 472 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,480 And even to the level I had someone make this point to me, 473 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,760 you know because obviously Tamar Bates has been playing pretty 474 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,520 well lately. Now that that hasn't necessarily 475 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,800 followed wins if not followed in Missouri. 476 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,000 But Bates has looked more in the last month or so like the player 477 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,080 that a lot of us who you know when he committed when he 478 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,080 signed. Certainly I mean anybody who was 479 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,280 in the Bahamas. Yeah with with Indiana and the 480 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,080 media like travelling party everyone was. 481 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,600 I mean every he was talk kind of the team on that trip, it was 482 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,840 like whoa, like this kid looks real and he never really found 483 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,600 that in Indiana. He seems to be finding it at 484 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,120 Missouri. So like there's kind of this 485 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:39,120 conversation too between like like somebody made this and this 486 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:41,720 is a bit of a tangent but it's it's a separate example of I 487 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,600 think the same general sort of conversation of Indiana made a 488 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,640 conscious choice to bring back Miller Cop for a fifth season 489 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,320 and start Miller Cop when it could have started. 490 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,440 Tamar Bates Let him play, let him work through some kinks and 491 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,720 maybe find that level that we thought he had when he signed at 492 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,480 Indiana rather than transferring to Missouri. 493 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,960 But then the flip side is we're sitting here talking about a 494 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,120 team, one of whose greatest weaknesses is probably its 495 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:10,920 experience. And Miller Cop was what, you 496 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,120 know, whatever anybody thought about, you know, maybe some of 497 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:16,120 the the times, some of the stuff he was asked to do defensively 498 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,440 at times or whatever. Miller Cop played 1000 Big 10 499 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,080 games. He was that team's most 500 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,520 effective 3 point shooter by I mean, you know, at times by some 501 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,400 distance. And so like this is like the. 502 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,920 And then the other part of this too is there were people who 503 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,680 after the 2122 season, I mean, I can remember this being part of 504 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,200 like the discourse on social media and probably in message 505 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,560 boards. I don't really go on those 506 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:43,280 anymore. But you know, like, does Indiana 507 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,880 really want Race Thompson back for a sixth year or would 508 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,160 Indiana be better off elevating Jordan Geronimo? 509 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,680 Well, Jordan Geronimo's gone somewhere where he's getting 510 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,080 regular minutes this year. Indiana didn't do that. 511 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,840 They took Race Thompson back. You know, he came back. 512 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,320 He was more or less probably the same player, broadly speaking, 513 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,560 last season that he was two seasons ago. 514 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,160 Jordan Geronimo never really got that opportunity in Indiana. 515 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,120 He's since moved on somewhere. He's getting that opportunity 516 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:07,800 and I'm not trying to pick on him. 517 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,400 Please understand. But it's it's it's clear that 518 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,560 just getting Jordan Geronimo more minutes has not sort of 519 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,280 allowed him to blossom into some substantially better basketball 520 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,640 player. So like there are all of these 521 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:28,080 new sort of like ripples in the current when it comes to roster 522 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,200 construction and and and not just construction but like 523 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,360 development over the course of several seasons of you know do 524 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,280 you take a freshman and develop him here. 525 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,120 Do you try to solve that problem in the portal? 526 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:40,840 What do you what do you want your identity to be? 527 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,520 Do you want to be a more experienced team? 528 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,720 Do you want to just try and be more of a, you know, a a portal 529 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,160 heavy team? We've seen some teams that have 530 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,160 had success with that, you know, fairly consistently since the 531 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,120 portal kind of became a mainstream thing. 532 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,680 You know, I think history's generally told us that trying to 533 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,720 use the portal as a quick fix doesn't work great, but it can 534 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,520 provide you key pieces, you can provide you guys the start guys 535 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,080 that change your dynamic etcetera. 536 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:18,160 It it's, you know, sort of this. The last piece of it is I guess 537 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,720 and I was the one who was hammering this in the summer 538 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,800 because I thought it was fascinating and and I don't, 539 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,040 it's hard to tell if like it's something Woodson's really tried 540 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,800 because you know, on a grand scale not a lot has worked 541 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,720 consistently for this team. And maybe this is a maybe that's 542 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,560 a symptom of this, maybe that it's just, you know, a weird 543 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,120 collision of things. But there was also kind of this 544 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,320 undercurrent of Woodson over the first two years, basically 545 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,960 saying I don't normally play this way. 546 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,600 Just this isn't, you know, this is not the offense that I ran in 547 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:53,320 the NBA, but I just had an all world right, you know, four or 548 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,440 five hybrid that could do what Trace could do. 549 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:56,960 So I had to build my team around him. 550 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,960 I wasn't just going to go out there and ask him to be Tyson 551 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,320 Chandler. I had to make him that team's 552 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,440 Carmelo Anthony. But I'm not going to do that 553 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,120 going forward. And yet at times this season it 554 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,720 has felt like Indiana has kind of run back to that. 555 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,520 When when things have gotten when it started to struggle, 556 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,680 it's kind of run back to that sort of like well, we're just 557 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,480 going to, you know, we're going to run floppy actions that 558 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,360 create post up opportunities and just sort of circle the floor 559 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,480 from there. And I don't, I don't disagree 560 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,920 with anyone who says this team needs pieces it doesn't have, 561 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,840 particularly from an offensive perspective, although obviously 562 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,320 they haven't been great defensively. 563 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,800 It is interesting to me. They're still 5th in the Big 10 564 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,440 in league games alone, despite allowing like 1.4 points per 565 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,480 possession at Wisconsin, they're still 5th in league games in in 566 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,760 adjusted defensive efficiency. So the defense hasn't actually 567 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,200 been, I think, as bad at times as is perceived. 568 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,960 The offense though, in eight Big 10 games, 12th in the league in 569 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,360 efficiency. I don't dispute anybody who says 570 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,520 this team doesn't space the floor well enough. 571 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,440 You know, I think they actually make enough threes, but they 572 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,280 don't shoot enough threes like that. 573 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,520 They need to make what they shoot, but they need to shoot 574 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,480 basically at least half again as much as they do, so that they're 575 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:12,040 making nine to 10 a game rather than five to six a game there. 576 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,960 But like it it is. It all folds into like a 577 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:22,320 conversation that is is so much messier than it used to be with 578 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,520 regarding how you manage this, especially when if you're Mike 579 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,760 Woodson and I do think this is an important part of his tenure, 580 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,960 you know, wherever it goes. You are also kind of trying to 581 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,360 hammer this idea of making Indiana a place that elite 582 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:44,320 recruits look at again because frankly history says to get to 583 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,320 where Indiana wants to go. Most programs that are already 584 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,000 there recruit at a level and and develop to the NBA at a level 585 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,160 Indiana just had not had stopped doing for 20 years. 586 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,720 So like it's it's I don't know if the right way to phrase it 587 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,600 does I have some sympathy with Woodson or not but it's it's 588 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,280 more kind of just this idea that like this conversation used to 589 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,280 be a lot clean it it was not clean 10 years ago but it was 590 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,400 much cleaner than it is now and I can see the shortcomings of 591 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,840 this roster and I don't I don't really I won't argue with 592 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,640 anybody who complaints about those. 593 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:24,560 The wider piece, again micro versus macro is is a is a more 594 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,440 complicated and nuanced discussion. 595 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,920 I think it's reasonable. And look, ultimately nothing's 596 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,400 changing, nor should it. In the immediate future in terms 597 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,520 of, you know, Woodson's job is not in jeopardy. 598 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,880 The program's going to continue on with some kind of trajectory. 599 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,120 But I just think at this point, people are not going to be 600 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,840 comfortable with the trajectory until there's more wins. 601 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,920 Because, I mean even last year, as good as that year was and you 602 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,400 you sweep Purdue. But there were several moments 603 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,920 in that season including the last game of the season where 604 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,200 Indiana got run off the court by a team that had superior 605 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,440 athleticism. They got run off the court at 606 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,320 Kansas. They they mean there were there 607 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,840 were several instances where you're like, well we're we're 608 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,480 better if you're an Indiana fan. But we're not anywhere close to 609 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:16,720 where we hoped to be. And this season was a nice way 610 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,160 to say, well, OK, we're going to drop the floor a little bit 611 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,560 because we have to because there's not the same level of 612 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,280 talent. The collapse of kind of the the 613 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,760 defensive pressure of the team and and the offense having as 614 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,360 many problems as. I just think it's got a lot of 615 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,240 people very concerned because you had a chance to fix the 616 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,040 roster a bit. You've got the ability to kind 617 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,360 of go back to what you said with how messy it is to make hard 618 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,640 personnel decisions to get people out, to bring different 619 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,520 people in. And you have to do that if 620 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,520 you're going to have a successful program at this 621 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,080 level, especially if you're not building off of a long standing 622 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,080 base of success, which that's part of the macro issue is that 623 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,720 Indiana doesn't have that long standing base of success. 624 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,200 They missed the tournament for so many years in a row. 625 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,280 So you, you know, But to to take such a step back and to look 626 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,240 bad, doing it in a lot of ways, even taking into account the 627 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,960 individual players getting better, like Embako, like Khalil 628 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,239 Ware, I just think that's got people on edge. 629 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,159 And I don't know that that gets solved anytime soon. 630 00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,960 A lot of it depends on how this team finishes out the season. 631 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,040 I mean, at this point, they need to win four games to get 632 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,600 themselves to a guaranteed 500 record. 633 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,280 Can they do that? I I would hope that they could. 634 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,600 But if you're if you trust the metrics, if you trust Ken Palm, 635 00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:34,239 they're going to just barely do that 'cause I think in both Ken 636 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,960 Palm and Torvik, they're only projected to win four more games 637 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,120 all season. No, that's right. 638 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,159 I I would I, I'll turn this back on you for a second too. 639 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:47,159 And I'll ask you to remove to some extent your background as 640 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,679 an IU alum who grew up in West Lafayette, OK? 641 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:59,000 Like I I grew up or well, my dad married into an Auburn family 642 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,920 when I was 11 years old. So the Iron Bowl has always kind 643 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,840 of been adjacent to like my like like my dad and my stepmom still 644 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,720 get sling at the end of August and cancel it after the bowl 645 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,960 season. Like that's like that's that's, 646 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,400 you know, they don't watch TV, they don't watch cable, all 647 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,440 that. They get slinged for Auburn 648 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,320 football and then they cancel it. 649 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,360 Either if Auburn doesn't go to a bowl, they cancel it after the 650 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,920 Iron Bowl, or if Auburn does go to a bowl, they cancel it after 651 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,200 Bulls season's over. And I think back to where 652 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:38,480 Alabama football was in 2003, four, five. 653 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,680 And I think people would look at Alabama football now and Indiana 654 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,400 football now and say how could you possibly make that 655 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,280 comparison? Alabama football spent a lot of 656 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,520 the 25 or so years between Bear Bryant's retirement and Nick 657 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,880 Saban's hiring in the wilderness. 658 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:03,560 You know that they had God, I can't remember his name. 659 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,160 Thank you. I I would just say Ray Vincent. 660 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:07,760 I don't know why who's? Ray Perkins. 661 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,840 Mike Dubose. It was Mike Perkins. 662 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,960 And then Bill Curry, who actually did well at Alabama, 663 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,520 but I don't think he ever beat Auburn and he was he didn't do 664 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,360 well enough essentially. Then I think from Curry, they 665 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,120 went to Gene Stallings, who obviously had success and then 666 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,200 it went to Mike Dubose and then Dennis Franchioni and then the 667 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,560 the Mike Riley misadventure and then they took Mike Shula. 668 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,840 And this may not have been the case, but this is what I 669 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,240 remember from Shula. Must have been hired around 670 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,440 2003. I would think it was 671 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,200 thereabouts. Yeah. 672 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,440 What I remember in my mind's eye was almost just kind of this 673 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,360 idea that Shula was a program alum. 674 00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,600 They knew some pretty stiff NCAA sanctions were coming, and it 675 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,960 was just kind of like bringing a guy who's going to be a safe 676 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,120 hand at the wheel, who's not going to embarrass us, who's 677 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,960 going to, who's going to conduct himself in the program's 678 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,520 business with a certain level of gravitas and pride. 679 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,960 And we will go, we'll get the other side of the NCAA stuff and 680 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,880 figure it out from there. But by the time all that 681 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,280 happened, Alabama had lost six straight games to Auburn, which, 682 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,440 like those, you know, down there, that's nuts. 683 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:30,200 That's that's not at all common. And there was an extraordinary 684 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:36,200 level of pressure on Mal Moore who was the AD at the time, if 685 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,720 I'm not mistaken, and and just the the the hierarchy at Alabama 686 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:46,200 to get that fixed the the program's direction. 687 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:52,480 But the Auburn piece of it became so like such an 688 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,520 intensifier that it all it, it made it and it made it an 689 00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,840 incredibly tense thing. And then obviously they have, 690 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,120 you know, the the, the fortune that Nick Saban decides to step 691 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,280 away from the NFL. They put on the full court 692 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,880 press. They give him a lot of, you 693 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,920 know, he comes in, you know, the the way the legend goes, he 694 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,280 basically came in was like, this is all the stuff you're doing 695 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,000 wrong. Like, it was almost like he was 696 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,280 interviewing them, not the other way around. 697 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,920 And some people were put off by it and the adults in the room 698 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,560 were like, this is exactly what we need. 699 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,680 Just deal with it, swallow it, because this is exactly what we 700 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,760 need. And of course, history tells us 701 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,520 what happens. My question to you is basically 702 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:35,160 if Purdue we're not at one of like its all time high tides and 703 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,640 I have, I'm not picking a fight with Dana at all. 704 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,720 I thought. I thought Dana's article about 705 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,560 Indiana and Purdue was a little bit harsh frankly on Purdue 706 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,800 because it sort of treated Purdue like Purdue's. 707 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,560 Never had any golden generations before this one. 708 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:56,720 But this is undeniably one of the best stretches, at least in 709 00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:58,320 the regular season Purdue has had. 710 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,760 How much do you think that basically colors the discussion? 711 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,520 Like if if Purdue was just middle of the pack in the Big 10 712 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,360 and Indiana was struggling and obviously the, you know, the 713 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,080 rivalry was a bit more back and forth, maybe everybody won at 714 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,160 home all the time for five years or whatever. 715 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,840 Do you think that the angst, the pressure, the tension would be 716 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,920 so great? Or do you think that some of 717 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,560 this is intensified right here and now, not just by losing by 718 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:25,800 21 points at home to Purdue? I recognize it's the biggest 719 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,960 home loss to produce since 1934 or whatever, but more the wider 720 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,400 idea that Indiana's really struggling to find its feet and 721 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,560 Purdue is maybe the best team in the country. 722 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,000 I'll be honest, I don't think it has as big of an impact as you 723 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,360 might think. I think it certainly doesn't 724 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,600 help. But look, we've been through 725 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,000 this and that. The, the, the Dana O'Neal piece 726 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,480 was funny to me because it's like this could have been 727 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,880 written in 1999, you know, because it was a similar kind of 728 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,240 thing where it seemed like, you know, they all the arguments was 729 00:39:57,240 --> 00:40:00,280 well, Purdue as you know, superseded Indiana as the 730 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,840 premier program in the state and they're winning all these Big 10 731 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,120 titles and so forth. And look, ultimately Purdue's 732 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,560 always had the ability to do that. 733 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,240 They've always had the ability at times to. 734 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,640 To put a good group of players together. 735 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,200 To recruit the state better than Indiana, To take chances on 736 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,880 three stars that maybe Indiana feels like they can't or they 737 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,760 don't want to. So I don't know if it's as much 738 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,520 that I think the larger amount of pressure, frankly, is that IU 739 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,560 fans are looking around. They've seen no North Carolina 740 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,360 surpassed them in national titles. 741 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,600 They've seen Duke surpassed them in national titles. 742 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,440 They've seen Yukon tie them in national titles and be the odds 743 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:41,160 on favorite at this point to surpass them in national titles. 744 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,520 They've seen Purdue certainly have success. 745 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,000 They see Kentucky has picked themselves up. 746 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,600 I mean, honestly, I think all these coaches have actually 747 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,480 benefited at IU from not having a Kentucky series because I 748 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,320 think that that would be the contrast that would be the 749 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,240 starkest and put the most pressure on an IU coach not 750 00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:01,320 losing to Purdue. You sweep Purdue last year, it's 751 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,400 like there's always going to be those opportunities. 752 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,440 So I understand where you're what you're saying. 753 00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:08,320 I really think it's more of a general pressure now because 754 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,960 it's a generation, like literally it's it is, it is 30 755 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,160 years since IU was consistently relevant in the upper echelons 756 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,400 of college basketball. And they've had moments. 757 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,080 They've had 2002. They've had 2013, but they've 758 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,320 been at, they've been blips, they've been afterthoughts. 759 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:30,080 And I think for a lot of IU fans, they're looking around and 760 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,040 they're saying, and I I say this myself as someone who's who's an 761 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,520 IU alum, whose parents were IU alums, who grew up, as you said, 762 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,640 in West Lafayette as a lone IU fan. 763 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,160 There's a generation of people who, I don't know why they're IU 764 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,560 basketball fans. What are they basing that off 765 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,640 of? What success are they? 766 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,520 Are they? Are they, you know, anchoring 767 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:52,640 that fandom too? They've been given so little and 768 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,960 so infrequently by this program that I think what you're seeing 769 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,720 now is essentially the culmination of 1/4 century plus 770 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,840 of IU significantly underperforming where it says it 771 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,960 is. And I don't know, you know, to 772 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,200 me, yes, that is unfair to an Archie Miller or a Mike Woodson 773 00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:16,080 in the micro because they're not responsible for what happened 774 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:20,880 and what mismanagement occurred. But they they've inherited it. 775 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,640 It's their job to fix it. And much like I think you would 776 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,000 see it other programs that have run into similar situations, 777 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,360 there's not going to be an understanding of, well, this 778 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,320 will get fixed eventually because you can only get sold 779 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,520 that so many times. And people don't walk away. 780 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,440 As you know Zach, they don't walk away from their their the 781 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,600 college teams that they love when they have stretches of a 782 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,440 lack of success like you mentioned with Alabama football. 783 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,760 They just get mad and they're like, God damn it, fix this like 784 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:50,600 this. Shouldn't be that. 785 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,400 Hard way. I feel like it feels like every 786 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,640 every coaching tenure has less of a half life than like, you 787 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,120 know, like like it. Effectively Tom Crane got six 788 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:00,520 years. You know that the first three 789 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,240 years, whatever your opinion on them turned into basically just 790 00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:08,320 kind of like a total sort of like separate thing. 791 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:13,680 And then Tom Crane got six years of of normalcy to prove what he 792 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,360 could do. Archie Miller got four. 793 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,040 I know that some of what we're talking about here is, is just 794 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,320 like the natural anger, like when Liverpool loses. 795 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,400 I'm always a lot more angry 30 minutes after the game than I am 796 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,880 the next day. Like the next day I can see with 797 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,680 clear eyes that this happened or that'll be OK or whatever. 798 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,680 Some of this is just that, you know, again, some of the whole 799 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,240 like people who recognized in the summer this could be a 800 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:43,480 rebuilding year Now, not wanting it to be a rebuilding year, it's 801 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,280 it's it's the it's the practice of not having to live it versus 802 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,920 having to live it. But this idea that there's 803 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,080 suddenly like this in this more intense scrutiny on Mike 804 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,400 Woodson, that didn't feel like it was even necessarily there to 805 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,840 the same level on Archie Miller, who'd achieved less, I think 806 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,120 just. Well. 807 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,160 It that half life grows shorter every time somebody fails and 808 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,760 that's to your point about, you know, Archie Miller and Mike 809 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,880 Woodson are having to do heavier lift. 810 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,560 I also think look. As as uninspiring as the Archie 811 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,800 Miller era was the worst team Archie Miller had in Ken Palm. 812 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,880 At the end of the season, they were 71st in his first year. 813 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:26,400 They were a team that was like right on the verge of being in 814 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,240 the discussion for the NCAA tournament. 815 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,720 They occasionally were in the discussion they would have made 816 00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,800 it obviously in 2020, this year's team under Mike Woodson's 817 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,880 96th and Ken Palm. And that's about where they're 818 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,800 going to stay. That I I think this is different 819 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,080 from being a A-Team that's not living up to expectations to a 820 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:43,680 team that just doesn't look. Good. 821 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,240 And I think that's having an effect just as much as any of 822 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:50,160 the other stuff is so. I would only dispute that I do 823 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,040 not think that Archie Miller team was ever seriously in NCAA. 824 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:58,080 They had lost to Indiana State and Fort Wayne at home by a 825 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,000 combined 41 points. They had a sub 100 loss on the 826 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,000 road in Big 10 play and they lost their last three games of. 827 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,600 The season well and and I think there was a honeymoon period for 828 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,160 the first year I guess would be the the thing I would throw back 829 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,440 in there. So I'm not saying that they were 830 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,360 in contention, but you can't just, you can't avoid the fact 831 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,920 when you look at the numbers, whether it's the net or can palm 832 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,400 or whatever, this team doesn't look good, like this year's 833 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,200 vintage does not in a way that previous years maybe didn't look 834 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,080 quite as bad. So anyway, we'll see what 835 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,240 happens as we move forward with things real quick. 836 00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:34,960 Before I let you go, any any overall thoughts on what we've 837 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,680 seen through this first month and 1/2 or so with Kurt Cignetti 838 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,080 and the overall trajectory of this football program? 839 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,840 I think the the most overriding thing and listen, you never know 840 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,360 how good a plan is until it's it's time to put it into action. 841 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,560 But probably the the most overarching sort of theme to me 842 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,640 has been that Indiana got what it was looking for, which is 843 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:08,080 someone that comes in with a proven process and a a track 844 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:14,480 record or a, you know, kind of a confidence in saying I know what 845 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:19,000 all the steps are to building a team that can compete and win. 846 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,800 I know what order they need to go in and I know how to cross 847 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:29,080 each one off as it goes. The efficiency with which you 848 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,680 know the staff was built. The roster, which at one point 849 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,440 I, I, if I'm not mistaken sunk below 50 countable scholarship 850 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:42,040 players is now they're now actually looking ahead to when 851 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,240 they would add the both the balance of their freshman class. 852 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,040 They are actually now over their limit. 853 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,920 But you always expect some guys are going to move on after 854 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,400 spring. That's just kind of a natural 855 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,120 part of the the evolution of a roster in the Portal era. 856 00:46:56,720 --> 00:47:01,960 The, the, you know, the, the, I would say pretty clear vision 857 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,840 for what and where Indiana is, particularly offensively. 858 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,640 I think defense is, is a little bit more up in the air. 859 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,960 But you know Kurt Cignetti has said many times offense is kind 860 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:13,960 of hit. That's his thing. 861 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,440 That's always been his corner of the store. 862 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,480 So it's always going to be a little bit different for him 863 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,680 offensively compared to you know defense. 864 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,720 I mean he he hasn't quite sort of said like Kevin Wilson's 865 00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:29,200 always kind of just like, hey, the defensive coordinator gets 866 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,360 to run the defense and Tom Allen always said I'm looking for a 867 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,440 head coach of the offense. Signetti hasn't quite said that 868 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,480 about his defensive coordinator, but he's always been pretty 869 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,320 clear. Like I give Brian Haynes quite a 870 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,480 bit of leash. You know, that's that's his 871 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:42,600 defense. I trust him. 872 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:44,600 He's gonna, I know, you know, I know he's gonna do good things 873 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,400 with it. But the offense is that 874 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,200 Signetti's background and I think you can see how quickly 875 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,160 the vision there when you sort of, especially when you overlay 876 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,960 it on on watching, looking at personnel and production and 877 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,960 watching some old JMU, you know, sort of film. 878 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,240 You can see like what he's trying to do there and how a lot 879 00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:12,360 of this fits. And you know, I'm stealing this 880 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:17,240 from Rick Bozich, but it's a great line and and so Rick 881 00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,080 deserves credit for it and Rick deserves to have it used. 882 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,080 Nobody's a basketball school. We've We've used this line 883 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,760 before on the podcast, yes. No, no one. 884 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:35,160 No one gets to say that basketball is their priority and 885 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,000 if they can figure out football, they can't, you know, fantastic. 886 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:40,720 They can't wait. They'll keep trying. 887 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,600 You know, we recognize what we are, but we're just everybody 888 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,480 has got to try and punch up because that is where all the 889 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,320 money is. That is where all the power is. 890 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,600 That is where the future is, for better or worse. 891 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,320 And I would make an argument in a lot of ways worse in college 892 00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:00,640 athletics. You know, Indiana's not going to 893 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,840 make the playoff next year. But Indiana wanted to be more 894 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:10,480 serious in football and when it when it's when it fired Tom 895 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:17,840 Allen and it set out to find a head coach or a replacement. 896 00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,840 Scott Dolson wanted a a head coach with a proven track 897 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,920 record. This is why Jason Candle was in 898 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,520 the room late in the day, proverbially speaking. 899 00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,040 This is why Paul Crist had a lot of traction at different points 900 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,600 in the search. Not because he just wanted to 901 00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,880 hire something that Tom Allen wasn't in the cycle, that you 902 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,720 can go where you you hire the hot young assistant and then the 903 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:44,680 proven head coach and then you know whatever. 904 00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:49,040 But because he felt like in this place in time, Indiana just did 905 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:54,760 not have the capacity to hire a coach that would ever need to be 906 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,720 a passenger or would ever need time to grow into the job. 907 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,800 They needed somebody who could walk in from day one and say 908 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,720 this is my process and this is how I execute it and This is why 909 00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:07,840 it works. And there's nothing that's 910 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,960 happened through obviously, you know, it's it's been closing in 911 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,560 on two months now so let's not get out over our skis. 912 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:24,120 But nothing has happened that has made me think Kurt Signetti 913 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,560 wasn't prepared for that and and was not the right hire based on 914 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,280 Dolson's desire to put somebody in that he could just kind of 915 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:36,240 plug into the program and say let me know what you need, I'll 916 00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:39,560 get it for you. Beyond that I'm just going to 917 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,880 trust that you have the capacity to do the right things and and 918 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,240 you know make the right decisions and take the right 919 00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:48,520 steps and build the program towards something competitive 920 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:54,800 and that's you know in in any, in any by any real measure so 921 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,720 far Kurt Tsugnetti has has managed that. 922 00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,640 It's been quite a ride so far. We'll see how things go as we 923 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,000 head into spring practice. Anyway, we'll go ahead and get 924 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,520 you out of here, Zach. As always, thank you. 925 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:07,720 Appreciate the time. Alright. 926 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:09,360 MO has. Tape. 927 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:12,680 Go take care of that. Zach Osman from the Indy Star. 928 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,000 Be sure to check out his work. Thank you, Sir. 929 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,960 And we'll look forward to chat with you again in the future. 930 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,200 Thanks for having me, always good to be on. 931 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:22,640 All right. My thanks again to Zach 932 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,600 Osterman. Always a pleasure for him. 933 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,120 For us to have him on the show, probably. 934 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:28,840 I don't know if it may be a pleasure for him to be on the 935 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:29,880 show. I don't want to presume 936 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:33,960 anything, but great to have him on board and getting his 937 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,000 thoughts and perspective on things. 938 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,960 An important perspective, someone who's who's not a fan 939 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,400 but is instead employed to cover this team and kind of try to 940 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,920 have some larger perspective, which I do think that I and 941 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,960 others maybe sometimes miss when we talk about IU basketball. 942 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:51,760 So anyway, thanks to all you folks for tuning in. 943 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,640 We really appreciate it. If you haven't, go ahead and 944 00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,120 subscribe to the sub stack. Be sure to go to Home Field 945 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,080 Apparel. Use the code Home 23. 946 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:00,440 By the way, I missed this at the beginning. 947 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,240 I was so excited talking about King Spud. 948 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,960 I forgot to mention the 15% off your first order. 949 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,840 That's my bad. So anyway, use that Code Home 23 950 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,800 and get 15% of your first order at Home Field Apparel. 951 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,960 Anyway, thanks to Zach Osterman from the Indy Star and thanks to 952 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,320 all you folks for listening in. We'll have more podcast coming 953 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,200 up soon here on Crimson Cast and on the Back Home Network. 954 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,480 Be sure to tune in for Assembly Call Radio. 955 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,720 Coming up Thursday night, be sure to tune in for the Doing 956 00:52:26,720 --> 00:52:28,880 the Work podcast. They just had their 100th 957 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,800 episode covering IU women's basketball. 958 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,400 And be sure to tune in after the game. 959 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,680 On Saturdays, Indiana takes on Illinois and men's basketball. 960 00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,840 Also come to Bloomington on the third. 961 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,600 We're meeting you folks in person. 962 00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:43,720 Until then, catch you folks. On the flip side, bring back the 963 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:44,600 Bison. So everybody.