1 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,880 You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:21,880 Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson Cast, 3 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,880 Galen Clavia joining you. It is Thursday the 20th of 4 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,720 March. Happy tournament day, day one if 5 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,000 you don't count the play in games. 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,040 Finally a good play in game yesterday involving at large 7 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,960 teams as Xavier comes back and knocks off Texas and Dayton. 8 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,240 But today we get the full menu of things and hopefully those of 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,040 you who are out there watching and listening to the podcast or 10 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,960 enjoying those simultaneously, we have a special guest back on 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,040 the show, Zach Osterman, Naive Insider for the Indie * And we 12 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,920 will chat with Zach in just a second here as we've got a ton 13 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,360 to cover in terms of the coaching search and everything 14 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,120 else that's gone on. But first of all, just a quick 15 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,600 reminder, we're brought to you by Home Field Apparel, the place 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,960 to go for the finest in college fashions, the softest fabrics, 17 00:01:08,960 --> 00:01:13,520 the coolest designs. Home Field had a great special 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,840 starting yesterday and I think still going today, Thursday. 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:22,160 If you order IU apparel on the Home Field store, you get 20% of 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,520 those proceeds going directly to Hoosiers Connect, the name, 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,120 image and likeness collective for Indiana University. 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,440 So go support IUNIL and go put yourself in some really 23 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,960 attractive IU gear like this Never daunted hoodie that I'm 24 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:41,400 wearing right now. Again, Home Field apparel.com at 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,800 all other times, use the code home 2-3 home 23 and get 15% off 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,080 of your first order. Again home field apparel your 27 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,640 place to go for the finest in college fashions and proud 28 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,080 supporter of the back home network. 29 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,400 Also, just a reminder, we're on YouTube. 30 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,560 Subscribe to the back home network and get all the podcasts 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,480 and notifications and all that fun stuff. 32 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:06,320 Crimson cast assembly call doing the work dribble Dr. film room, 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,880 just a little bit of everything. So head on over to the YouTube 34 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,600 channel. We'd love to have you on in that 35 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,880 community and as part of our subscriber base. 36 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,840 Over 7000 people now there. Join the crowd. 37 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,240 It's what everybody's doing. All right, Zach, welcome back. 38 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:26,360 It's been a long season for IU basketball and I wanted to first 39 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:31,080 start off by kind of getting a bit of an epitaph and of course 40 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,640 a post mortem on the Woodson era, which is now ended after 41 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:37,520 Four Seasons. Indiana barely missing out on 42 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,360 the NCAA tournament this year. So two times in four years, 43 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,360 Indiana doesn't make it. And it was certainly a mixed bag 44 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:51,200 in a bunch of different ways to see the the era seemed like it 45 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,400 ended perhaps better than it looked like it was going to end 46 00:02:54,640 --> 00:02:58,080 at the beginning of February. But if you reflect back on these 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,320 Four Seasons with Mike Woodson at the helm, what's your overall 48 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,400 impression? What are you left with as far as 49 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,880 as how this period of time went for Indiana basketball? 50 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,040 Well first, if there's a video component to this, I hope it it. 51 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,200 It caught me having to physically remove my 7 year old 52 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,600 because he was trying to find a a piece of a Lego that is not in 53 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,480 my office. This is a common thread on 54 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,200 Crimson. Cast of Scott's sons do the same 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,800 thing during the show on a regular basis, so you fit right. 56 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,800 It's a it's a crisis of of substantial proportions anyway. 57 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,560 Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't know, it's it's kind of funny 58 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,480 like the the Woodson era just feels like it kind of covered a 59 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:43,640 lot of ground, a very short space of time because there were 60 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,800 these sort of like distinct storylines that like it. 61 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,960 I don't want to say there weren't common threads, but the 62 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,800 first year was so much about Indiana has to get back into the 63 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,320 tournament. Indiana's got to break this this 64 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,480 streak. Indiana has to get to a place 65 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:04,680 where it's not, you know, sort of grappling with this, this 66 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,800 this almighty struggle just to just to return to one of college 67 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,080 athletics more forgiving post seasons. 68 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,360 And then the second season was, you know, defined by I think 69 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,000 expectation at a level that no other Woodson season was in 70 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,800 terms of, you know, Indiana was pre season big 10 favorite that 71 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,240 year. That was also Trace Jackson 72 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,080 Davis's senior year. You know, that was a that was a 73 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,120 group that I think, especially by the end of the season, you 74 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,680 very you very much felt like a lot of that was kind of an all 75 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,600 or nothing year in terms of, you know, you knew trace was 76 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,160 leaving, Race Thompson was leaving Miller cop was leaving 77 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,320 Jaylen Pitchfina was leaving. There was just like such a sort 78 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,240 of maximize everything about this year. 79 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,920 And then I think, I think the last two years are the 1st 2 80 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,040 that feel a little bit more interconnected and, and maybe 81 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:56,760 not necessarily in a good way, but more I think in the end 82 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:03,200 reflective of, I mean, certainly obviously what eventually moved 83 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,160 Indiana to, to, to move on from Mike Woodson or, or everyone to 84 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,240 move on. I know Woodson, you know, sort 85 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:13,360 of announced he was going to step down, but also maybe a bit 86 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:22,120 of a sense that that this was this was not a the, the 87 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,640 direction of the program was just one that that kind of 88 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,320 couldn't be sustained essentially. 89 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,920 And you know, I mean, I've covered Tom Crean's nine year 90 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,840 tenure, Archie Miller's four year tenure and now Mike 91 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:39,360 Woodson's four year tenure. And it is funny to me how 92 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,080 distinct, how much it seems like we sort of packed into four 93 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,080 years under Mike Woodson. And I mean that like largely on 94 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,200 the court. I'm not talking about 95 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,760 controversy or, you know, headlines or I mean, I mean, 96 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,400 like largely on the court, it feels like Indiana, you know, 97 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,360 kind of almost kind of endured 3 distinct eras within one for 98 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:01,640 your tenure. Maybe that's a little bit 99 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,760 reflective of the portal era and how much teams turn over and the 100 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,600 fact that, you know, if there is less continuity than you are 101 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,760 constantly feeling like you're almost kind of seeing each team 102 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,960 in its own sort of space and time. 103 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,520 But yeah, I mean, it it I, I honestly haven't stopped to 104 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,800 think that much about, you know, kind of Mike Woodson's four 105 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,720 years just because there has been so much going on in the 106 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,200 last few days. But that is probably the way I 107 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,720 would describe it is that it it does feel like we we packed an 108 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,880 awful lot into a short space of time. 109 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,160 I mean, I think you you hit on something really interesting 110 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,040 there, which the portal era, it did feel like in Mike Woodson's 111 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,640 tenure, it almost felt like Mike Woodson got hired in a different 112 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,000 era, one where you were still focusing on traditional 113 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,200 recruiting. NIL as a matter of course was 114 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,840 still not a thing. It wouldn't become a thing, you 115 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:53,640 know, really in earnest until, you know, shortly after he got 116 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,840 hired. And this last year was a a 117 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:01,320 roster assembly like we've never seen in the history of Indiana 118 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,720 basketball. And, you know, you've got key 119 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,120 players coming in from outside. You had a couple of of holdovers 120 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,520 who it'll look like they were going to become role players. 121 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,120 It is really interesting, though, that this season ended 122 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,280 up almost getting saved by the guys who stuck around as 123 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,840 hypothetical role players, while many of the folks that got 124 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,280 brought in through the transfer portal ended up having to play 125 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,520 more supporting roles. Not it's not, you know, 100% 126 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,840 across the board. But if you don't have Trey 127 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,280 Galloway and Anthony Leal playing the way that they play 128 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,680 down the stretch, you're not even in conversation probably 129 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,680 for the NCAA tournament. So yeah, it is. 130 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,560 I think it's a sign of the times to some degree. 131 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,600 I mean, do you think obviously there was there's a lot of 132 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,280 question marks about how Mike Woodson got hired, what that 133 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,320 process was like? We've talked about that a bit 134 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,120 over time and that became a big talking point just in terms of 135 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:55,000 the job during this cycle. But it it does feel to some 136 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,720 degree like if the trajectory of college athletics had not 137 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,920 changed, you know, maybe this turns out differently, but it 138 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,280 did change. And Indiana suddenly found 139 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,040 itself in a spot where it it just wasn't measuring up from a 140 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,880 competitive level. And that is unfortunately Adna 141 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,200 that it shares with what happened in the Archie Miller 142 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,920 era and what looked like it started to happen at the tail 143 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,080 end of the Crean era, too. And I mean, it almost feels like 144 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,000 Indiana's been behind a step for a decade now. 145 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,840 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's also really hard to contextualize 146 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,680 Woodson's hiring like #1 Scott Dolson's still in his first year 147 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,840 on the job. Or maybe like, I guess just the 148 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,840 other side of year one, number two, COVID. 149 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,080 I think we all forget Covid's still going on. 150 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,320 I mean, you know, I'm, I'm talking with other reporters 151 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,280 about what we're hearing at the NCAA tournament in Indianapolis. 152 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,640 We're all still wearing masks. The attendance is still, you 153 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,720 know, like 1/3 capacity. Nobody had any money then 154 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,440 because everybody was, was wondering just how big the 155 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,440 budget shortfall was going to be once kind of all the dust 156 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,560 settled and everyone could add up all the money they didn't 157 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:04,640 make on tickets and what they, you know, nobody knew quite what 158 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,840 they were going to lose from their TV inventory. 159 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,160 So like even that felt a little different. 160 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,920 And, and I think it was Scott Dolson, in fairness, trying to 161 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,720 embrace some of the more modern aspects of college basketball, 162 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,680 even though the problem, I think part of the problem was we 163 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,680 didn't really quite know what those were. 164 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:26,000 We could guess, you know, the idea it's going to look a little 165 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,720 bit more pro model. It's going to be a little bit 166 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,800 more like free agency and year to year. 167 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,480 And, you know, but I think that you still didn't know. 168 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,960 I mean, NIL didn't come into into effect in until that 169 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,600 summer. And really, I think it's 170 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,760 probably fair to say wasn't properly in place until the 171 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,960 following spring or summer for the most part in terms of, you 172 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,360 know, schools and, and what it eventually became their 173 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,640 affiliate collectives kind of understanding how to build up a 174 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,600 large scale NIL operation. You know, I, I remember talking 175 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:04,400 to, let's just say a mutual friend of ours, I think I'm 176 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,320 allowed to tell this story who, who runs a, a business and was 177 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,920 looking into open doors or one of those things kind of at the 178 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,520 advent of NIL. And there, there were athletes 179 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,000 who said that like the starting fee for NIO deal for him was 180 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,240 like $15,000. And that was for, you know, like 181 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,040 social media posts and things like nobody knew anything then. 182 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,760 It's kind of my point. And so, you know, in some ways 183 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,480 there is probably an extent to which like Woodson's tenure 184 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,040 almost kind of tracked a lot of the developments of this stuff. 185 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,600 And, you know, now Darren Devry's tenure will will kind of 186 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,760 bring revenue sharing into it. But I think that you make a 187 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,480 valid point about this team and this season about how, you know, 188 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,040 I mean, I think one of the quotes that really stuck out to 189 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,840 a lot of people on Wednesday when Darren Devries was talking 190 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,280 was that a roster isn't a collection of players. 191 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,600 It it has to fit together. And I think there was a feeling, 192 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,400 you know, that that this roster maybe didn't quite do that. 193 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,840 Now, that's always a little bit on the coach and a little bit on 194 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,440 the players. And, you know, I, I when when 195 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,120 we've kind of done our post mortems. 196 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,640 One thing I've said, you know, pretty consistently is I think 197 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,880 Mike Woodson thought he had this roster in a good place and then 198 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,000 it was clear that he didn't and it took too long for him to 199 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,240 rearrange it in a way that made sense and worked. 200 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,000 And, and ultimately, that's why Indiana kind of comes up just 201 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,680 short of making the tournament. But it, you know, in a lot of 202 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:31,560 ways, I think Woodson's Woodson's hiring is kind of like 203 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,880 something unto itself in this program's history because of the 204 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,440 place and time that it happened. But his tenure, I think has 205 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,680 tracked a a lot of sort of and reflected, as you would expect, 206 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,600 a lot of the developments in college athletics that, you 207 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,600 know, that we were all probably just kind of trying to get a 208 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,440 handle on as they were happening. 209 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,560 And now while we're, you know, now we have this brave new world 210 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:01,920 of revenue sharing, I think everyone is is probably able to 211 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,440 operate a with with a little more confidence in the ground 212 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,160 underneath their feet. That doesn't mean Darren Debris 213 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,200 is is going to, you know, immediately outperform Mike 214 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:16,080 Woodson, but I think that there's going to be a lot less 215 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,360 sort of, you know, figuring out as we go along essentially. 216 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:27,040 Obviously we've known officially since roughly the beginning of 217 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,160 February that Mike Woodson was not going to return. 218 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,560 The timing of that a bit odd historically, you know, given 219 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:38,680 that a lot of times as we just saw with say Texas, Rodney Terry 220 00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:41,120 just got fired today or this morning. 221 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,160 I. Didn't see that. 222 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,160 I wondered if he. I wondered if he was going to. 223 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,480 I didn't. Yeah, that. 224 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,400 That just got announced, but that's normally when these 225 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,880 announcements happen. Kevin Keats right before the ACC 226 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,400 tournament. I mean, are you getting a jump 227 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,400 start on things? And there was a lot of 228 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,760 speculation about the search and the way that the search went. 229 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,000 You and Michael Nazolik had a a really good article today in the 230 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,480 Star regarding kind of the background of that process. 231 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,000 And obviously, I want people to go read the article, but it was 232 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,440 interesting a how much it seems to mirror the process that they 233 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:18,480 used to hire Kurt Signeti. But also I think everybody's 234 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:21,200 curious about how the timing of this actually worked. 235 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,040 There was that little segment of the press conference on 236 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,920 Wednesday when Devries mentioned something about Pam Witten and 237 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,760 Scott Dolson being respectful of like him still focusing on his 238 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,080 team while things were going on, which seemed to indicate like 239 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,800 these talks have been going on for a while. 240 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,240 This wasn't something that just happened in the last week. 241 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,360 Yeah, I mean, and I think West Virginia fans have taken it a 242 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,160 certain way. And I guess I understand that. 243 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,040 I would point out, Will Wade literally said he was talking to 244 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,800 NC State in a press conference yesterday and then it was 245 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,760 confirmed about an hour later, I think that he's going to take 246 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,160 the NC State job at the end of the year. 247 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,720 And and a West Virginia fan might say, well, yes, but that's 248 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,240 different because he's at McNeese State. 249 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,720 And I understand that sentiment too. 250 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,520 But the process isn't different. And you know what is? 251 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,240 Look, I, I I thought about this in relation to the Archie Miller 252 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,920 hiring. Indiana Dismissed Tom Crean on 253 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,000 the first day of the tournament. Archie Miller lost, I think in 254 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,080 his first game that season or that that tournament against 255 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,680 Wichita State. Sean played to the second 256 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,400 weekend. And the way that the the way the 257 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,880 supposed timeline all worked out was Archie joined his family 258 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,840 wherever Sean was and said, well, they were all just kind of 259 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,360 having a quiet moment in a room together. 260 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,000 Said, you know, hey, I'd love your opinion. 261 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,840 I think I got a shot at this IU job. 262 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,440 And by the end of the weekend, I remember because I was I was 263 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,920 back home in Atlanta for some reason, by the end of the 264 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:53,080 weekend, it was all done. So you had a timeline of, you 265 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,360 know, coach fired on the 1st on the day of the tournament, 266 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,360 starts new, you know, next coach loses his first tournament game 267 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,960 and is hired basically coming out of the second weekend of the 268 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,480 tournament. That timeline doesn't exist 269 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,760 anymore because of the portal, especially this year. 270 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,440 And we don't have to get too in the weeds with it. 271 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,600 I know MM and I like always rolls his eyes when I start 272 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,680 talking about it too much. But I do think it's important 273 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,480 for people to understand at least a little bit the April 7th 274 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:22,760 deadline. That's going to be very, very 275 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,760 important for roster construction for basketball this 276 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,800 year and the ability to kind of, you know, operate under quote UN 277 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:35,360 quote old NIL for one more year. You know, that that timeline 278 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,360 just doesn't work anymore. That sort of, you know, we'll 279 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:44,080 we'll all wait until seasons end and then, you know, that's when 280 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,120 we'll talk to candidates and whatever else. 281 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,040 And listen, you know, even before all this, search firms 282 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,640 were having some of those conversations, even if athletics 283 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,280 directors weren't. But I think what you found is, 284 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,760 is a bit more of an ability. I think This is why search firms 285 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,960 have become so much more important and, and why you've 286 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,680 seen kind of their influence spread is that I think probably 287 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,520 more what you're talking about is the, you know, the, the, the 288 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,960 sort of hard and fast conversations you're setting, 289 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,240 the, you're sitting the table so that when everybody sits down, 290 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,080 that stuff can happen quickly. That's the stuff that tends to 291 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,640 happen, I think after a season is over, you know, is, is the 292 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,480 literal in person, I'm going to sit down with the president. 293 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,000 I'm going to sit down with the athletics director. 294 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:36,360 We're going to talk about the, you know, how this works, but so 295 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:41,680 much of the stuff that used to happen in person, you know, 296 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,000 after the fact or after, you know, between the end of a 297 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,960 season and the hiring just has to happen in a in a different 298 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:54,400 timeline now. And I don't know for a fact when 299 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,480 everyone spoke to everyone, but I don't think you can come away 300 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,200 from yesterday with any take away other than that that yes, 301 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,640 Indiana spoke to Darren Devries at some point while West 302 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,400 Virginia season was still going on. 303 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,079 But having said that, that is just the way it works now. 304 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,240 And if you aren't prepared to operate according to that 305 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,280 timeline, then you're going to suffer for it. 306 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,160 Because the other thing, you know, and and I, I would never 307 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,280 have said this five years ago, but I do think it's relevant 308 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,400 now. I think there's going to be an 309 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,480 expectation that Indiana is, you know, should be able to compete 310 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,960 pretty quickly here. You know, if you look at like 311 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,400 the Ken Palm top 20, you got a Florida team that's in year 2 312 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,120 under Todd Gold in 130 games. You got a Texas Tech team in 313 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,400 year 200, Grant Mccaslin, you know, 125 games. 314 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,520 You know, Saint John's in year 2, obviously under Rick Pitino's 315 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,560 been a big story. You know, we can keep going down 316 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:58,040 the list to to somebody like Mark Pope, obviously, yeah, 317 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,680 somebody like Louisville even. I mean, even throw in in 318 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,560 Illinois in the sense that Brad Underwood's been there a while, 319 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,520 but that roster turned over completely and there's still 320 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,920 20th and Ken Palm with 21 wins. There are six seed like that's 321 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,320 you know, you don't have to go out and win a national title in 322 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,840 year 1. But the idea that again, the old 323 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,520 timeline of and and this guy's going to come in and he's going 324 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,680 to retain a few players and then he's going to recruit his own 325 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,240 guys. And once those guys are 326 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,560 sophomores and juniors, that's when you're really going to see 327 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,680 the fruits of it. Dusty Mays, another example, you 328 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,560 know, it it, that timeline just doesn't fit anymore. 329 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,640 And so you have got to be prepared to move really, really 330 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,840 quickly. And Indiana is, I would be very 331 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,200 surprised if we're not talking about, you know, by the 332 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,720 beginning of next week, staffing being in place, maybe even one 333 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,440 or two transfers, you know, sort of if not on campus, maybe 334 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:51,960 already committed. We'll see. 335 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,600 This stuff moves really fast anymore. 336 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,280 That's just the way it works. We heard Scott Dolson, we heard 337 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:05,000 Pam Witten talk about why they felt Darren Devries was a good 338 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,320 fit for IU basketball. You know, they talked about a 339 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,800 coach that could operate as Aceo. 340 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,960 They, they talked about his, his process based nature. 341 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,440 Again, very, very reminiscent of their comments on Kurt Signetti 342 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:22,040 and not just their comments, but what we saw out of Kurt Signetti 343 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,240 this entire year. From your perspective, not, not 344 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,320 Witten, not Dolson, but from your perspective, 345 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,440 observationally, both with IU basketball and nationwide, do 346 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,760 you feel like Debris is a very good fit for IU basketball? 347 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,400 And, and you know, what is it about him that makes you think 348 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,200 one way or the other about how he fits within this particular 349 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,040 structure and what IU wants to be? 350 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,200 I think I mean, I, I, I can see it both ways. 351 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,640 And you know, on the one hand, I don't know that you would have 352 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,400 looked at Darren Devries, you know, at the beginning of the 353 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,160 search and said that's an absolute home run. 354 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,080 On the other hand, number one, I'm I'm very much the person 355 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:14,120 that bangs the drum for the idea that nearly always coaches or 356 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:17,560 programs like this hire coaches that then become, you know, 357 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,080 great, become elite in those jobs. 358 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,360 You know, Bill Self to Kansas, John Calipari to to to Kentucky. 359 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:27,520 Those are the outliers and you know, and I said this to people, 360 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,800 to IU fans I knew at the front end of this process, I said, 361 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,560 look what Louisville did last year. 362 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,000 Look what Kentucky did last year. 363 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,760 Those are programs that are your peers in terms of the way they 364 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,640 expect their basketball team to perform, the way they support 365 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,720 it, the the energy of their fan base, the money behind it. 366 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,320 Those are Indiana's peers and one of them hired BYU's head 367 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,320 coach, who probably, you know, if Mark Pope had played his his 368 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,080 college basketball at UCLA, maybe he probably, you know, he 369 00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,320 might still take the Kentucky job. 370 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,280 But obviously that's still very influential in him being the guy 371 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,440 there. And the other one hired a coach 372 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,280 who'd been at Winthrop and Charleston. 373 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,000 So and they both did great. I'm not criticizing either hire. 374 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,720 My point is they both hired coaches that they were going to 375 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,360 have to make into what they wanted them to be. 376 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,880 And we can. I won't go through the whole 377 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:29,000 list, but history says that is kind of the common task that 378 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,720 coaches walk here. If anything, hiring from another 379 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:34,880 high major program is not super common. 380 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,920 Now we can we can also have a philosophical discussion about 381 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,040 whether the Big 10 and the Big 12 really operate, you know, on 382 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,480 the same playing field anymore. In some ways they don't. 383 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,680 Well, on that real quick, I think some Big 12 schools do 384 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,320 well and granted there's going to be some revenue differences, 385 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,800 but I think if you look at like the Kansas, Houston, Arizona 386 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,320 maybe, but but this is where the Big 12's this interesting body 387 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,760 because there's no argument that West Virginia is in that upper 388 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,920 echelon. So you know, even within that 389 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,560 and I think to some degree within the ACC, you've almost 390 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,440 got a bifurcation within the conferences about who the haves 391 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,120 and the have nots are. And I guess what I meant was 392 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,640 more, you know, if you're a coach, you're thinking about 393 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,080 next year, but you're also thinking about 5 years from now 394 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,560 and five years from now, 8 years from now, 10 years from now. 395 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,240 The Big 12 in the ACCI suspect are not going to feel 396 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,880 necessarily like direct competitors to the big 10 and 397 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,560 the SEC financially. And and and not just financially 398 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,440 like, oh, how much literal money they have, but for example, how 399 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,080 much money they can put into revenue sharing and how they can 400 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,120 split it up and how NIL can support different things. 401 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:52,080 So on the like, I I look at their in debris and I see 402 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,560 reasons why some people might be skeptical or at least cautious. 403 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,560 I also just generally think, and I said this at the outset of the 404 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:08,120 search, that, you know, this job to me is a bit of a, a paradox. 405 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:11,760 And one of the elements of that, one of the, the, the, the core 406 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,840 sort of elements of that paradox to me anyway, was that on the 407 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,400 one hand, I think it's going to be easier for the next head 408 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,400 coach to kind of make the fan base happy quickly. 409 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,400 Like just just find a competitive level that in a 410 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,960 consistency that the team hasn't seen, especially like stop 411 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,480 getting blown out, you know, like on the road and stuff like 412 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,280 that. But on the other hand, I, I also 413 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,000 thought like it was going to be very hard to hire someone that 414 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,040 everyone wouldn't look at and be like, OK, prove it. 415 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,840 Because 25 years of this now, we've tried all these different 416 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,920 head coaches, you know, at this point, we're done just kind of 417 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,080 blindly buying. And you, you kind of got to 418 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,080 prove it to us essentially that that you're, you've got that 419 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,000 level in you. And I think both of those things 420 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,400 kind of exist. And that's why I think on the 421 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,080 one hand, you look at this hiring, you say, OK, he is going 422 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,240 to have to prove it a little bit. 423 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:05,560 But you look at it on the on another. 424 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,320 And I think there are some, some justifiable reasons for, for 425 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,720 optimism. So you know, Tony Adronia, your 426 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,000 friend and mine had a good point, which was that I think, I 427 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,080 think in only maybe one of his seven seasons as a head coach 428 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,360 did debris not improve his Torvic rating in the court 429 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,800 season. Now, I think it's a good point. 430 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,160 I think it's a little dangerous because the problem is the 431 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,360 computers, especially in the portal era, are are going to 432 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,640 tend to naturally downgrade mid majors at the expense of high 433 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,960 majors. Cause high majors will spend the 434 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,600 offseason bolstering their roster with players that the the 435 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,080 computers say should make them a lot better. 436 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,200 This is why, for example, you've seen Indiana struggle against 437 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,280 it's it's pre season Kim pom number in the last two 3-4 years 438 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,920 consistently under Mike Woodson. But I think Tony's point is 439 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,720 valid, which is his teams have consistently gotten better 440 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,920 against the formulas that you need to like you to make life 441 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,360 easier in February and March in college basketball and that we 442 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:11,480 don't need to get into a debate. I I have thoughts on those 443 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,800 formulas as well, but that's that's a a conversation unto 444 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,160 itself. You're not a not a big BPI guy 445 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,800 these days like. I, I think I, I mean my elevator 446 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,640 speech is that I think the, I think the net, Ken Palm, 447 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,480 etcetera, need to be reconfigured for a world with 448 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,480 super conferences. Because I think what, what we 449 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,680 are seeing here is that you, you have these conferences that are 450 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,720 so large and are so naturally inflated in those numbers by the 451 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,360 quality of coaches and and players etcetera, that they just 452 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,800 sort of it's a closed loop. Exactly. 453 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,160 They, they feed on themselves and we say, my God, these 454 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,280 conferences are amazing. But the problem is that they're 455 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,440 just beating each other. And like, I had a friend 456 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,400 yesterday who said Oklahoma's a 19, the only one, six games in 457 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,880 the SEC, What are we doing? I said, I have bad news for you 458 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,680 about Texas. You know, the formula needs to 459 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,120 be reworked a little bit if it's saying that 6 and 12 in any 460 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,240 conference is good enough. But that's set that to one side. 461 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,480 I thought one thing that was interesting about Indiana's own 462 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,760 analysis. I know Scott Dolson sort of 463 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,200 trumpeted the the the record in close games. 464 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,640 And I'm always a little bit skeptical of stuff like that 465 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,080 because there's so many things that can turn a close game. 466 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,560 But one of the things that that struck me was I, I, I think 467 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,040 Indiana did this, you know, kind of specifically to make sure if 468 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,440 it was looking at a coach who had a big body of work in the 469 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:40,840 mid major that they weren't kind of hiring another Archie Miller 470 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,400 type where the numbers looked good. 471 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,640 But the performances that the the underlying performances were 472 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:52,560 were more concerning. Archie won 90 games, I think, in 473 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,120 his first Four Seasons at Dayton. 474 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,560 He inherited that job from a coach who'd won 97. 475 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,400 I think Drake won. If I'm remembering the numbers 476 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,680 right there in our story, I just don't have them in front of me. 477 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,680 Drake won 40 games in the four years that the preceding 478 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:14,720 Devreese's hiring said. They won 977 and 17 in the four 479 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:22,960 year. Yes, and he he won like 95. 480 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:28,200 He won 2420262527 and 28 in a six year span. 481 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,360 So the point is, you know, that that what they were looking for 482 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,040 is proof that someone built something, not just that they 483 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,040 inherited and sustained and maybe sort of refashioned in 484 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,800 their own, you know, through their own image or their own 485 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,920 philosophies, something that they built something and Debris 486 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,520 very much did it. Drake and I know there are 487 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,440 people who say, well, it's 'cause he had his son. 488 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:51,920 Well, he didn't for the first three years. 489 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,680 So, you know, it it, I mean, you know, he goes to the NCAA 490 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,600 tournament in, in 2021. There are people who have 491 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,520 reservations about his lack of, of NCAA tournament wins. 492 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,040 And I understand that. You know, I don't think that's 493 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,960 that's completely unfair. But here's where I come back to 494 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,080 the idea that the job kind of makes the coach a little bit. 495 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:18,520 Danny Hurley had not won an NCAA Tournament game for anyone until 496 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,920 he won the first one on the road to his first national title. 497 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:25,520 He had been to the NCAA tournament four times, twice at 498 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,200 Rhode Island, twice at UConn, and he'd not won. 499 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,400 Unless there was a First four-game in there somewhere 500 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,480 that I can't, I don't see. Excuse me, I'm sorry, I take it 501 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,440 back. He did win two games at Rhode 502 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,640 Island. Then he went Four Seasons at 503 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,640 UConn without winning a tournament game before he won, 504 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,360 before he won the first game in his first win at UConn was 505 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,680 during the 2023 run to his first to the two national title. 506 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,440 So my point is, you know, you can kind of see those sorts of 507 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,640 things both ways. What Indiana felt like it was 508 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,920 confident in was it was getting somebody who was who had made 509 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:03,160 his own success. And West Virginia's a small 510 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,160 sample size, but I think I think A10 win improvement was the best 511 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,040 single season turn around in that program's history. 512 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,680 And you know, you can certainly see some marker points in in 513 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,040 West Virginia's sort of metric performances, particularly 514 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,840 defensively from last season to this season. 515 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,760 And that was with a pretty substantial roster turnover. 516 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,880 And then, of course, he lost probably his best player, Tucker 517 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,840 Devries, his son after eight games. 518 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,720 So Indiana felt good about the idea that they were getting 519 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,840 somebody who was kind of the author of his own success. 520 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,280 And I thought that was and a really interesting way of 521 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:45,880 looking at why someone like Darren Devries might and and 522 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,080 listen, Ben McCollum might wind up having a better career. 523 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,800 But might, you know, separate from someone like Ben McCollum, 524 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,240 right? The other interesting aspect, 525 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,880 like if you looked at the names that were getting mentioned in 526 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,200 the search, I mean, there's other factors at play just 527 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,760 besides success. You brought up a really good 528 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,640 point earlier, which we brought up on the show as well, which is 529 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,680 this is an era of college basketball where if you have the 530 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,560 financial backing and you're already getting recruits and 531 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,800 you're already having success, there's a bunch more programs 532 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,880 that you can potentially win a national title at or at least 533 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,680 get to national prominence than there were 20 years ago. 534 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,800 And you know, as much as people would be like, well, why, why 535 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,120 wouldn't they'd be able to go out and get like a Scott Drew or 536 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,240 ATJ Olzenberger? It's like you can get to a Final 537 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,280 Four at Baylor or win a national title. 538 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,760 As we've seen, you can get to a Final Four at Iowa State. 539 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,800 No one would have, I mean, you grew up in the South, like a 540 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,880 very occasionally in Auburn or in Alabama would have a great 541 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,000 season and settle back into the mire. 542 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,520 That's not how it is now. And, and the idea that you had 543 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,640 to get to an Indiana or a North Carolina or a Kansas in order to 544 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,440 actually be competitive for a national title, it just isn't 545 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,320 the case. So as much as I think for a lot 546 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,840 of IU fans, the initial rejection of debris and there 547 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,920 weren't as many it act the, the response was actually a lot 548 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,840 better than I thought it would be among the fan base. 549 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,760 But for those who were skeptical, a lot of it was, 550 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,400 well, why couldn't Scott Dolson pull a bigger name? 551 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,120 And and that's just unfortunately, I think for a lot 552 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,280 of IU fans, egos like it's just not as important to be at an IU 553 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,240 in order to have national success. 554 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,160 Why move if you've already got a good thing going where you're 555 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,200 currently at? No. 556 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,000 And I think there's I think there's a few layers to that. 557 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,040 I mean, first of all, like, OK, so look at the look at the the 558 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,000 teams that won the national title in the 90s, UNLV, Duke, 559 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,160 Duke, North Carolina, Arkansas, UCLA, Kentucky, Arizona, 560 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,280 Kentucky, UConn. And that decade, sort of you 561 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,880 want to see it this way, wraps off with Michigan State. 562 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:51,040 And then after that comes Duke, Maryland, Syracuse, UConn, UNC, 563 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,320 and you don't like you're only three real interlopers. 564 00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,000 There are UNLV, which had been so good in the 80s and 1990 was 565 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,760 kind of the they went to a yeah, they. 566 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,320 They've been good for 15 years at that point. 90 Arkansas in 567 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,440 94, which was you had a generational coach. 568 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,120 And then if you, if you kind of want to see Florida as an 569 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,200 interloper again with the generational coach, point is, 570 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,200 you know, you, you, you get up into, you know, more recent 571 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,000 years. Yes, you have your Kansas's and 572 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,920 you have your Yukons, but you've also got Virginia in there. 573 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,840 You've got Villanova pulling back up in there. 574 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,120 You've got Louisville coming back to a level of prominence 575 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,800 that you really had lost for probably 20 years under Denny 576 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,320 Crum. And then the other thing you 577 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,880 haven't, I guess I that sounded really harsh on Denny Crum. 578 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,320 He was a great coach. At the end of his tenure, 579 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,800 Louisville had he had dipped a little bit of his. 580 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,920 Career, like it, fell apart. Yes, it was, and Denny was a 581 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,160 delightful interview too, by the way. 582 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,240 We all miss him, but you know it. 583 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,400 The other thing that has happened here too is the money 584 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,920 has changed in all the ways you would imagine what these 585 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,200 programs can do. So for example, Alabama can pay 586 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,080 Natoats an amount of money that A, makes it hard to pull Natoats 587 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:21,160 out of Alabama and B, also gets convinces Natoats to say, yeah, 588 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,560 you can put an, an 8 figure buyout in my contract. 589 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,760 Because the flip side is not only are you going to pay me the 590 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,840 money I need, not only are you going to pay my assistants the 591 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,600 money they need, but like, I've heard anecdotally that most NCC 592 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,200 programs are going to start at 4 or 5 million in revenue share. 593 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,360 You know, and I, I, I, I think that at least near term, I think 594 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,080 their thought process is NIL can cover the gap in football. 595 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,800 We'll put a little more toward basketball than people expect. 596 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,520 Obviously we'll see if that works long term, but there's 597 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,040 just more money in especially the SEC. 598 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,880 The SEC is kind of the big one here. 599 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,320 Again, the Big 12, I think. And, and I'd point out Indiana 600 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,040 did just take a coach out of the Big 12. 601 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,720 You know, the Big 12 is 1 where maybe 578 years from now it 602 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,680 looks different, but the SEC is the one where it's like, you 603 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,080 know, Todd Golden 8 figure buyout. 604 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,600 Bruce Pearl, I don't know what his buyout is, but he's 605 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,520 incredibly comfortable at, at Auburn. 606 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:17,840 And Nate Oates has an 8 figure buyout. 607 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,639 You know, I, I don't know what Dennis Gates buyout is, but I 608 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:23,400 don't think Indiana was necessarily ever as as sort of 609 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,239 intensely, you know, locked in on somebody. 610 00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:29,800 I think Mark Byington has like a $12 million. 611 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,320 Yeah, his his Buyouts 12 if I'm not mistaken. 612 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,199 If that's the bill, basketball coach has a $12 million buyout. 613 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:37,560 I mean, yeah, it's that's that's. 614 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:45,800 The point is both because of the ways that these schools, the 615 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,760 money these schools have allows them on the one hand, to keep 616 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,600 these coaches comfortable and competitive. 617 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,000 You know, whether it's their own salaries, their own staffing 618 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,840 pools, their own resources, or it's NIL, it's revenue sharing, 619 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,440 whatever. And then it also gives these, 620 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,360 you know, these these athletics departments the leverage to be 621 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,600 able to protect themselves with enormous buyouts. 622 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,560 You know, Mark Pope and and Darren Devries, I believe are at 623 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,480 least publicly known to basically kind of now be the 624 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,480 joint highest bought out coaches to be high. 625 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,040 Like if it's a hiring buyout, not a firing buyout, Pope was at 626 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,040 six million last year. Indiana's going to be with 627 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,400 taxes, I think just a little bit. 628 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,040 And they're also going to assume a bit of a little bit of the 629 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,240 duty to Drake from West Virginia. 630 00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:33,640 So they're going to go a little more than 6,000,000. 631 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,080 I think that's basically about as high. 632 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,480 The only one that's possibly higher is Ed Cooley to 633 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,040 Georgetown. But we'll never know those 634 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,320 numbers exactly because he went from 1:00 private school to 635 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,640 another. So it it there are people who 636 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,160 think that might be the highest buyout that's ever been paid. 637 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,320 These schools just have the money to keep the the coaches 638 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:59,000 comfortable and also to protect themselves, to not let the 639 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:04,080 coaches get poached. Like, Illinois would never lose 640 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,480 a coach to Kansas now. They would just have too much 641 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:08,600 money to be able to do it. Yeah. 642 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,200 Well, and it's interesting because there's an argument, I 643 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:16,720 mean, there, there was a lot of rumors that debris was Iowa's 644 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,200 number one target and that Iowa just could not come up with 645 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,800 enough money on the NIL front. Now, that doesn't necessarily 646 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,160 mean I Iowa doesn't have money. It means Iowa's spending that 647 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,160 money elsewhere like they're they're putting that money 648 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,600 towards football. I mean, there's a theory I've 649 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,080 heard and maybe it's been confirmed already, I'm not sure. 650 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,480 But you know, West Virginia just hired Rich Rodriguez as their 651 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,800 head football coach. They do not have an 652 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,760 inexhaustible supply of available money to spread 653 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,080 around. And cultural perspective, I 654 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,320 think you can make an argument that football at West Virginia 655 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,240 is just more more vital to their culture than basketball. 656 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,840 You know, there's a possibility that there were NIL commitments 657 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,720 that weren't going to be able to be kept because that money now 658 00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:59,000 had to go to support the football program, that there are 659 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,520 resource allocation issues at a lot of these schools. 660 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,600 It's why I thought, well, you know, even somebody like Tommy 661 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,200 Lloyd might be a possibility in the search because of the huge 662 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,040 financial issues Arizona's got and the idea that at some point 663 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,720 they have to choose where are we putting the money and where is 664 00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:14,960 it going to have its biggest impact. 665 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,400 So there's a lot of you, you bring up a lot of great points. 666 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,360 There's a lot of financial data points that end up entering into 667 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,400 some of these decisions that the average fan is still not really 668 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,640 attuned to a program to think about. 669 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,200 Because I don't even think the industry has really gotten its 670 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,640 head wrapped around how all of this is supposed to work. 671 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,160 And you know even how the post settlement realities financially 672 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,160 of college sports are going to shake themselves out. 673 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,320 And where the soft power is compared to the hard power. 674 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,800 So like for example, the Big 12 right now, if you ask me for my, 675 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,560 my greatest fear about if, if I'm, if I'm the Big 12, a fan of 676 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,560 the Big 12 or a conference in the, or a team in just a Big 12 677 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:57,240 fan, I wear a Big 12 cap everywhere. 678 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,080 That's a conference without a single team, single program 679 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:03,840 right now that can legitimately compete for a national 680 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,720 championship in football. And like that, I mean, that that 681 00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,520 is the currency in college sports. 682 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,520 It's, it's why the ACC, you know, sort of a went through a 683 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,440 prolonged legal battle and B eventually willingly sort of 684 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,560 ripped up its, its, its previous, you know, revenue 685 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,560 sharing structure, not revenue with, with athletes, but within 686 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,600 its own conference to make sure that it kept the two or three 687 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:33,360 programs that it has right now that give it currency and agency 688 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,960 in a College Football Playoff role in a College Football 689 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,600 Playoff conversation. Because that is, that is the 690 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:44,000 next great frontier in, in, you know, basically who who controls 691 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,680 the keys to the Kingdom in college athletics. 692 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:50,320 Big 12 doesn't have that. So if I'm the Big 12 school, to 693 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,920 your point, and I've got to figure out how to cut my cloth, 694 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,840 I, I'm probably in most places, maybe not Kansas, maybe not 695 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,160 Arizona, but in most places, I'm leaning toward football and 696 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,720 trying to say we've got to be better at this. 697 00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:05,960 Because then you look at like the Big East, for example, where 698 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:07,960 there are people who think these, there are going to be 699 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,040 some Big E like the, in all likelihood the, the big E 700 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:17,160 schools are going to be the ones with the most money in just raw 701 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,480 Rev share because they don't have to serve football. 702 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,720 They don't have to feed football. 703 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,400 But the flip side of that is the Big East is going to have 704 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,960 precious little political power going forward. 705 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,040 And things like tournament expansion or when the tournament 706 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,440 expands, when it's time here in four or five years to start 707 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,560 renegotiating, you know, NCAA tournament television revenues 708 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,200 and things like that, how that money gets spread around. 709 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:46,240 And so, you know, it's it's you have all of these. 710 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,480 You have a lot of different sort of constituencies within what we 711 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,680 would call in basketball terms, the high major conferences that 712 00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:00,360 basically all look at the same problem trying to find their own 713 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,120 solution. The only two conferences that 714 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,680 don't really have a big problem or at least have the least 715 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,640 number of problems by far, are the SEC and the Big 10. 716 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,120 And that is why you see, you know, schools when you see, you 717 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:22,920 see coaches trying to get into those conferences and why, you 718 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,320 know, West Virginia fans might be upset that Darren Devries 719 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,800 leaves after just one season. But Darren Devries might say, 720 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,160 listen, you know, hey, culturally it's probably a 721 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,960 better fit for him, right? He's from Iowa. 722 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,360 Like I, I, I heard that when he took the Drake job, part of it 723 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,840 was just like, I'm just so happy to be close to my family and, 724 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,560 and, you know, yadda, yadda, yadda. 725 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:45,560 But also part of it is just you've got to find your way into 726 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,720 one of those two conferences. If you can use this as an 727 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:54,480 example, West Virginia was rumored to be considering a 728 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,680 coaching change in football. Throughout last season, West 729 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,760 Virginia had a prominent alum who was having a remarkable 730 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,960 amount of success at a program that historically does not 731 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,080 measure up to West Virginia in football. 732 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,880 Doesn't even really come close, right? 733 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,720 If we're talking about, you know, 30 years, 50 years, 75 734 00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:17,960 years, the cultural importance of football at West Virginia 735 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:23,000 compared to where this coach was, the, you know, the, what 736 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,520 would be perceived to be sort of the infrastructure around those 737 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,360 programs. And yet at no point did it ever 738 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,760 seem like Kurt Signetti was going to seriously entertain the 739 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,160 possibility of leaving Indiana for his alma mater. 740 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,840 But the flows reversed almost immediately when Indiana 741 00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,200 basketball called. Yes, part of it is the prestige 742 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:50,840 of IU basketball, but it's also that life in the Big 10. 743 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,720 Five years, three years from now, five years from now, 10 744 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:59,400 years from now is a lot more manageable than life in the mid 745 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,200 12. Final question for you on the 746 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,680 podcast today, Zach, Indiana acted relatively early. 747 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,280 They get their coach hired essentially 6 days before the 748 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,680 portal opens. Do you have any thoughts right 749 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,400 now about the timetable from now until, let's say, the beginning 750 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,600 of June in terms of, you know, when do you anticipate we're 751 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,560 going to hear news on what the staff looks like? 752 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:28,360 When do you anticipate we're going to hear? 753 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,600 And are you surprised we haven't seen more IU players enter the 754 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,000 portal yet? And, you know, how would you 755 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,920 expect or how would you you suggest IU fans approach looking 756 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,440 at the way the roster will likely come together in terms of 757 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,720 the timetable over the next 6 to 10 weeks? 758 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,720 Yeah. I mean, I think we're probably 759 00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:48,280 talking more than that or fewer than that, right? 760 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,760 Like like quicker than that is, is what I'm trying to say. 761 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,640 You know, staffing I think will happen relatively quickly. 762 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,800 There's different things you got to solve here. 763 00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,520 Debris had, by my understanding, a pretty large staff of West 764 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,560 Virginia. Indiana had the number one 765 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,240 staffing pool in the Big 10 last year. 766 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,480 So whether he wants to pull staffers from West Virginia, 767 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,000 whether he wants to go hire someone from somewhere else, I 768 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,080 think, you know, that's going to happen fairly quickly. 769 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,360 I would expect there to be some sort of general manager type 770 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,120 person within that, you know, and The thing is every program 771 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,080 has somebody like that. It's just that some programs now 772 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,080 are making a big deal of calling it general manager and and 773 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,160 boasting about how much they're paying that person. 774 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,280 You know, like how you football has like AI forget what the 775 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,520 exact title is, but basically like a director of, you know, 776 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,040 like recruiting and player personnel. 777 00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:38,520 It's the same idea. It's someone who is trying to be 778 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,760 a fence for this is these are the qualities we're looking for. 779 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:42,840 I'm going to scout all these players. 780 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,720 I'm going to bring these players to, you know, the, the, I'm the 781 00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:48,320 talent evaluator and my staff are the talent evaluators and 782 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,000 we're going to bring these players that we find to the 783 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,080 staff to the head coach. They're going to say, let's 784 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,120 pursue him, let's pursue him, you know, and so forth. 785 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:59,080 It's, it's the same process. It's just that some people are, 786 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,560 are making, I think A, and I'm not saying that like maybe some 787 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,040 of these general managers aren't going to have a little bit more, 788 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,160 you know, influence or whatever. But I, I think there is also 789 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,920 kind of an element of, you know, just sort of making a big deal 790 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,800 about the title. When a lot of these programs 791 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,560 have someone like that, it just maybe they call it something 792 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,680 different. Because let's let's be very 793 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,200 clear that there is a demonstrable difference between 794 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,120 the general manager and college who is directly answerable to 795 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,040 the head coach and a general manager or a president of 796 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,840 operations in the pros who probably has, at least at a 797 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,200 fundamental level, the the authority to fire the head 798 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,640 coach. So you can call him a general 799 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,280 manager, but it's not what a general manager is in in the NBA 800 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:51,360 or the NFL. As for the roster, I guess I 801 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,280 will take people in the weeds with us now because you probably 802 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,040 know this. Again, Mike always rolls his 803 00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,840 eyes when I start into this conversation. 804 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:04,200 But I do think it's important for people to understand the 805 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,160 house settlement is scheduled to be approved on April 7th. 806 00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,080 It may not be, but as of right now, that's the deadline 807 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,520 everyone has to work with. The NCAA has said that it's NIL 808 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,680 clearing house will go into effect April 7th. 809 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,320 I don't think it actually opens its doors until like July 1st or 810 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,520 June something. But the NCAA has said every NIL 811 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,640 deal signed on or after April 7th will be subject to fair 812 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,200 market value analysis by Deloitte via the clearing house. 813 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:37,640 Which means if you sign in an IL deal for $500,000, then if it's 814 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,480 on or after April 7th, Deloitte gets to look at that. 815 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:44,400 It gets to look at your profile, your, you know, your brand, how, 816 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,800 how good you are, how many social media followers you have, 817 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,640 whatever. And say either A, yes, for, for 818 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,480 the work done here, for the, you know, the, the scope of these 819 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:55,920 deals. That's a fair number. 820 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,360 That's, you know, that's his, his or her fair market value or 821 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,880 B, No, it's not. And then the clearing house can 822 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,120 reject the deal and basically send it back and say we don't 823 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,880 approve this. Now, everyone obviously expects 824 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,640 that at some point someone will challenge the the Clearing 825 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,160 House's power to to to do this total. 826 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:15,200 Hours are salivating right now over. 827 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,360 This then we'll then we'll see what happens. 828 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:26,880 But it's everyone is operating or attempting to operate in a 829 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,200 world where for the next, what is that like 3 weeks basically? 830 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,520 Yeah, it's, it's a little over. It's about 2 1/2 weeks. 831 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,160 For the next like 2 1/2 weeks, you can have your cake and eat 832 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,520 it too. You can have NIL the old way, 833 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,360 which is you can just, you can decide what the number is. 834 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,120 You know, like the the number I've heard is that basically 835 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,680 it's about 85 fifteen, 85% collective money, 15% like the 836 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,760 true NIL that you just go find because you're AIU basketball 837 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,200 player or, you know, an Ohio State football player or 838 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,240 whatever. So you can you know, you can 839 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:05,080 have those numbers as they already are right now, but then 840 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:09,280 you can also have revenue sharing, which is going to be 841 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,200 you know, it probably at least a few $1,000,000 in a place like 842 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:18,080 Indiana after April 7th. You can have Rev share, but the 843 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,560 NI LS probably going to be reined in a little bit, at least 844 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:26,480 for now. So I think the I know the goal 845 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:32,520 is going to be for everybody, and This is why Indiana making 846 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,720 their hire as quickly as they did helps is you want to get as 847 00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:40,480 much of that roster in place as possible by April 7th. 848 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:46,400 And you know, yes, there are sort of waves of portal players 849 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,360 and do you want to wait for somebody to come off of final 850 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,840 four team or you know, you always see some mid major 851 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,000 players that go into the portal, declare for the draft, go 852 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,520 through the draft process knowing that they're going to 853 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,760 come back out again. Well, here's The thing is the 854 00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,840 players are going to have to respond to this too, because 855 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,200 their agents, their representation are going to be 856 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,480 saying, listen, you know, the financial opportunity for you is 857 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,320 much greater if we get in ahead of this deadline. 858 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,440 So let's get these visits done. You know, let's get all this. 859 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,560 But if if you're committed to planning college next season, 860 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,440 I'm just telling you there is a a demonstrable financial 861 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,800 difference between the opportunities available to you 862 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,480 before April 7th and after April 7th. 863 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,680 And so I think you are going to see things speed up pretty 864 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,120 quickly on the roster front. The since I have gotten and that 865 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,600 you you mentioned only a couple of Indiana players are in the 866 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,600 portal so far. You know, you're in the breeze 867 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,720 even said yesterday a lot of them are on spring break. 868 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,600 The since I've gotten is that there's an expectation most of 869 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,440 the roster will turn over. Obviously already Indiana was 870 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,080 was looking at a fair number of outs just based on, you know, 871 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:58,160 graduation and things. But I think there were, I think 872 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,600 there were like 9 players that in theory could come back, two 873 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,040 of whom have gone into the portal. 874 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,160 We don't know what Lou Goody's status is, but you'd like to get 875 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,640 the year back. You know, I would be surprised 876 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,960 if you see more than just a small handful of those back next 877 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,440 year already. Of course, everyone expects 878 00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,480 Tucker Debris to to come out of the portal to Indiana. 879 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,240 I think a couple of other intriguing West Virginia players 880 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:25,520 have hit the portal that I would imagine like Jonathan Powell's a 881 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,600 six six for the wing shooter that actually played high school 882 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,920 basketball cave cups. I I wouldn't be stunned if if 883 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,080 Indiana would would like to get involved there. 884 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,280 I believe, and this is more tenuous, but I believe Darren 885 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,480 Debris has some sort of connection to Josh Dix, the 886 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,880 shooting guard who's in the portal from Iowa. 887 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:49,320 So you know, they're going to be a lot of names as there always 888 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:50,960 are. But expect the portal in 889 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,600 particular to move quickly because everyone's going to 890 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:59,000 understand that it's going to be easier and for players, probably 891 00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:05,040 more lucrative to get in before the April 7th deadline and still 892 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,760 be operating under the old rules plus the new rules rather than 893 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,760 the new rules, and then amending the old rules to just kind of 894 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,520 see what happens with the clearing house. 895 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,280 So staffing I think will happen fairly quickly. 896 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,040 You know, roster I think is going to move really fast. 897 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,080 And if you if you told me, for example, that, you know, 898 00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:33,880 Indiana's already got, you know, half its roster locked down by 899 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,520 the end of next week, You know, again, also remember, like 900 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:42,280 Prince Cecily still in maybe a couple currently committed West 901 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,800 Virginia signees open their process back up, that kind of 902 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,800 thing. I would not be surprised if 903 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:53,080 Indiana's already got a sizeable chunk of its 2026 roster kind of 904 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,960 sewn up by, let's say, a week from today or a week from 905 00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:58,720 tomorrow. Well, I think that'll be good 906 00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:01,360 news for a lot of IU fans is I think everybody's ready to turn 907 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,440 the page. I think everybody's excited to 908 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:06,080 see what the roster is going to look like and what the coaching 909 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,400 staff is going to look like. So after a lengthy coaching 910 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,720 search, a coaching search that felt like it went on forever as 911 00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:16,440 the season was going on, it would be nice to just kind of 912 00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:21,480 turn the the the to the next chapter and let IU fans dream a 913 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,920 little bit in the offseason. So Zach, I appreciate you taking 914 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,840 the time to join me on the show as always, and we'll look 915 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,720 forward to chatting with you maybe at the end of the the 916 00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:34,040 roster cycle to see where Indiana landed on all these 917 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,000 things. No thanks for having me. 918 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,800 I mean, it's, it's been finally kind of coming up for air. 919 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,720 It's been a a busy few days. So I think we're going to we we 920 00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:46,040 were going to podcast yesterday and that turned out to be a, a 921 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:48,680 fool's errand. So that we're going to I think 922 00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,520 we're going to I think we're going to huddle today as well. 923 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,480 So. Well, I appreciate you taking 924 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,160 the time to join us and we appreciate Zach Ostrom and being 925 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,680 on the show. IU Insider for the Indy Star 926 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:00,680 joining us here. Be sure to check out Mind Your 927 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,520 banners and all Zach's work at indystar.com. 928 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,360 I'm Galen Clavio for Crimson cast in the back home network. 929 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,480 Thanks for our presenting sponsor, Home Field apparel. 930 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,320 We'll catch you folks. On the flip side, staying ever 931 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,280 daunted. Bring back the Bison. 932 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:13,520 So everybody.