1 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,160 You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home 2 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:21,200 Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson Cast, 3 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,480 Galen Clavier joining you. It is the 1st of July. 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,160 Happy July everybody. You may be listening to this on 5 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:29,680 the second. Maybe you're listening to this 6 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,440 on the weekend. 4th is either happening or has happened. 7 00:00:35,160 --> 00:00:38,400 We've been trying to. Summer is a little slow when it 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,440 comes to a podcast that primarily covers college sports. 9 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,240 We've done a lot about college sports and NIL. 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,200 We did a nice pod with Taylor Lehman the other day about IU 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,920 football recruiting updates and then IU recruited another 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:52,560 player. Got one commit today, three 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,560 story defensive lineman out of IMG Academy. 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,680 We're doing some other things throughout the course of the 15 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,800 summer to keep you, the listener of the Back Home network, 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,840 entertained and we're happy to have back on the pod. 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,640 It's been like 7 years I think. I was going to say it's, I 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,600 remember doing it at like 2 apartments ago, I think. 19 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,440 Yeah, we're we're we're back. You were waiting for the right 20 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,920 time. I was mid 2025. 21 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:19,840 This was the right time. Definitely the right time, but 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,080 Greg Gottfried joining us. Greg, for those who don't know 23 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,400 who you are, tell the people. I don't know where to start. 24 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,840 I went to IU so that's good. I graduated 2017 from the 25 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,800 journalism school. I mean, do you need the whole 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,040 background? I work for what? 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,760 Do you like I? Work for Golf Digest right now. 28 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,880 I've been there since end of 2019, right before COVID, end of 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,920 2019. And I'm web producer. 30 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,120 I produce our three podcasts, I write for the website, and then 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:50,720 I also write about movies in my spare time. 32 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,520 And I live in New York City, so I have no money whatsoever. 33 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,680 So yeah. That's who I am. 34 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,400 Living the dream. Honestly, yesterday I went, this 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,120 is gonna, this is the most like humble braggy thing, but I pay a 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,080 lot of money for Equinox to go to the gym there and it's over 37 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,720 $200. I don't whatever, who cares 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,760 anymore. But my AC was at the gym was 39 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,800 broken. So let me go to any other 40 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,400 Equinox. So I went to one with a pool, 41 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,080 took a pool class. It was me and 1252 year old 42 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,920 women. And then I went to a movie and I 43 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:27,680 picked up a rap in between and I walked back at like 9:30 at 44 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,760 night. And it was, it was, it truly was 45 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:30,880 the dream. I love it here. 46 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,040 Things you could only do in New York City, right? 47 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,680 No other place has gym, movies or pools. 48 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:36,880 Nothing. No, Yeah. 49 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,080 No, it's. Really, it's the walk that 50 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,720 matters more than anything. Else right through Central Park, 51 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,040 Yeah, where they they find bodies every so often. 52 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,000 It's perfect. They find bodies everywhere. 53 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,320 It's not just Central Park. Yeah, but it's New York bodies, 54 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:56,200 you know. So Greg and I have texted 55 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,480 regularly for a long time. We, we, we keep each other 56 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,760 humored, I guess, just with the random stuff that we'll see in 57 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,680 relation to sports and media. But we got to talking quite a 58 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,120 bit the other day about a topic that I know is relevant and 59 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,320 interesting to a lot of the folks that are in our listening 60 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,880 audience, which is what the hell happened to ESPN? 61 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,480 And, and this became, I think, exacerbated for a lot of people 62 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,760 in Indiana over the course of the last couple of months 63 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,120 because of the Pacers, somewhat improbable, but incredibly 64 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,400 exciting. We're on all the way to game 65 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,680 seven of the NBA Finals. And so we got to going back and 66 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,080 forth talking about a few things. 67 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,920 And I think at one point I said we should do a podcast where you 68 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,560 just ask me a bunch of questions because I, I, I think one of the 69 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,040 things that's worth noting is that Greg, what, like what 70 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,040 generation do you consider yourself a part of? 71 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:47,400 Are you a millennial or are you Gen. 72 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,640 Z? Non millennial, I'm part of the 73 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,440 generation of Grantland. I feel like the when I was in 74 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,120 high school and that's when Grantland came out and page 2 75 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,240 was I feel like closing shop and I feel like that's where the 76 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,120 that's where my generation is. I feel like with the ESPN thing. 77 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:12,360 That's, that's fair. You know, so I, I am, I'm at the 78 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,280 exact opposite end of the millennial spectrum to the point 79 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:16,839 that I'm probably technically Gen. 80 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,160 X, but I refuse to identify with Gen. 81 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,320 X for personal reasons. But it's interesting having 82 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,800 conversations about ESPN because the perception of what ESPN 83 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:34,760 should be and what it actually is in practice is, I think very 84 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,000 distinctly different things in most cases. 85 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,440 And I happen to be a professor of sports media in my day job. 86 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,560 So I think about these things all the time. 87 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,240 And so this is where the basis of this conversation on text 88 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:48,400 started. And we were like, why don't we 89 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,320 do this as a podcast? Since as the listeners know or 90 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,160 the viewers on YouTube, I everything in my life is 91 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,000 essentially a podcast at this point. 92 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,920 And so, you know, let's just live it and let's share in this 93 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:02,000 with everybody. And Greg did a great job of 94 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,840 coming up with a lot of questions that are probably on 95 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:05,040 the minds of you folks out there. 96 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:06,480 So we're going to get to those in just a second. 97 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,600 But first of all, quick reminder, we are here at Crimson 98 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,760 Cast, part of the back Home Network, which is brought to you 99 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,640 by Home Field Apparel, your place to go for the finest in 100 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,160 college fashions, the softest fabrics, the coolest designs. 101 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:18,640 Why are Why are you laughing right now? 102 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,000 No, it's just you're doing it on air. 103 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,240 I mean, I guess that's what you have to do with the YouTube 104 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,440 thing, but sorry, you finish up and then we. 105 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,640 Don't do live. We don't do like prerecorded 106 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,040 drops. We we drop everything in. 107 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,400 I think those are soulless and like, it's like they're like 108 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,000 zombie ads at that. Point they are, but when you're 109 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,360 trying to wrangle a bunch of different hosts together, it's 110 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,360 like, just do it on your own. This is why, This is why I 111 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,320 produce all of my own stuff. It just makes it much easier. 112 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,120 But anyway, Home field also produces all of their own stuff, 113 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,080 you know, T-shirts, hoodies. They've got this whole ball cap 114 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,640 series that's coming out, which is is really an impressive 115 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,400 thing. If you are a fan of any of the 116 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,320 teams that they've released, which I don't happen to be, but 117 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,040 you might be, you might want a Penn State hat or a Michigan hat 118 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,360 or a Purdue hat. I can't imagine why, but you can 119 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,920 go to Home Field apparel and use the code Home 23. 120 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:12,800 Get 15% off your first order. They will have a ton of things 121 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,360 coming out in the fall. College football is their jam. 122 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,640 They've got some exciting new things that they're planning on 123 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,600 doing both with their merch and with some other items. 124 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,680 So head on over, follow them on socials, get subscribed to their 125 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,200 newsletter or their text updates. 126 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:29,880 You'll get the things that you're interested in sent right 127 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,480 to you. Again, that's home field 128 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,360 apparel.com. And just a quick reminder, we 129 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,240 are on Sub Stack. Subscribe to the Sub Stack. 130 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,400 You get the podcast delivered right to your inbox, and that 131 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,240 includes our YouTube, which you can separately subscribe to, and 132 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,520 we would recommend that you do so get alerts about when we're 133 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,960 doing live shows and when new things drop on YouTube. 134 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,560 We'd love to have you as part of that community. 135 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:55,720 All right, Greg, I'm going to do something I don't normally do. 136 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,640 I'm going to move you to the left. 137 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:01,960 That's. Like that's my good side. 138 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,280 So that works perfectly. Those of you who are on YouTube 139 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:08,200 or Spotify, Greg has now moved to the left side so I am more in 140 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,960 the if this was $25,000 pyramid I would be receiving as opposed 141 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,240 to giving which which in 25,000. You're you're dating yourself. 142 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,360 That's what I was about to say you. 143 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,760 You weren't ever watched an episode of that? 144 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,760 I think when I was like sick home from school, but it was 145 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,080 never like like, 'cause that was like an 8:00 PM show right at 146 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,800 one point. I mean, I really only ever 147 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:32,160 actually, it's funny you say that. 148 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,360 I, I would come home from school and it would be on like CBS at 149 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,880 like 4:00 in the afternoon when I was a kid. 150 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:41,800 But I mostly knew it from the Game Show Network. 151 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,480 That's what I was going to. That's where I know it from. 152 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,800 I don't know when it ran on the Game Show Network. 153 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,200 It's it's in, it's in a weird spot historically in game shows 154 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,920 cause like what? Like I think uniformly we would 155 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,680 say in some order, the best game show, the most recognized game 156 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,880 show is either Price is Right or Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune, 157 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,640 right? Is there anybody else that's 158 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,640 even close to those 3? No, it's jeopardy. 159 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,080 Jeopardy is the show, and maybe it's less. 160 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,720 I don't know, man, when I think game show, I think price is 161 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,920 right like I I don't know that anything like has quite the 162 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,160 combo of of like flash and consistency as price is right 163 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,640 has. It's funny you say game show and 164 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,360 my first thought was Jeopardy and my second thought was Guts 165 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,520 and like the other Nickelodeon game shows growing up like. 166 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,840 Like Double Dare. Double dare. 167 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,919 There was like the temple, like the hidden legends of the hidden 168 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:36,200 temple. Legends of the hidden temple, 169 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,679 Yeah, Which was? I I wanted to be on that show so 170 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,520 badly. This is very much the difference 171 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:45,600 between growing up in the like, early 2000s, mid 2000s. 172 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,080 Like yeah, early, early, mid 2000s. 173 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,360 And growing up in the 80s and early 90s, when for me it was 174 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,160 like, you know, Price is Right, Card sharks, that was a big one. 175 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,200 Classic Concentration, which was a bizarre show hosted by Alex 176 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,720 Trebek. There were a few others in the 177 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,720 mix like that that I would, I would place above those the 178 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,800 other ones that you mentioned, even the Nickelodeon ones. 179 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,800 But I I mean, I was always an old head even as a kid though, 180 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,680 so. That's not shocking considering 181 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:16,080 the record collection I've seen you have and other things like 182 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:16,920 that. Yeah, correct. 183 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,920 Anyway, we're, we've gotten off topic already. 184 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,480 I we should talk about Stump the Schwab I guess, as maybe a 185 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:26,280 transition point for game shows. Which I watched I I did watch 186 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,480 that one. What was what? 187 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,320 Where would you rank that on the the list of game shows for 188 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,480 conceptually and executionally? I feel like I got into it a 189 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,720 little late, but I got obsessed with it. 190 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,280 I feel like when I really got into sports, like middle school, 191 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:45,360 early high school, it was always on like ESPN 2 or ESPN news or 192 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,920 like all these random back channels. 193 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,040 And I thought it I thought it was cool knowing who this guy 194 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,800 was that no one else in my class knew. 195 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,000 So that's my Schwab background. But I mean, he was, he was the 196 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,800 he was, he was great. I know he has some weird takes 197 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,520 outside of I think there there was a whole back story to 198 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,240 there's a. Whole cancel the Schwab period 199 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,720 of things, which kind of fits into the story that we're about 200 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,800 to yeah here. You're so good at this. 201 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,040 You're you're keep getting it right back. 202 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,000 I keep trying to get you off and then you're like. 203 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,320 And by the way, let's segue right back into the perfect I 204 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:19,800 mean. You got to find these. 205 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,240 Angles, man, you know. You podcast for 20 years about 206 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:24,760 everything. You'll eventually hit these 207 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,360 things too, but it's not because like there was a whole cadre of 208 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,920 quirky, offbeat types of shows that ESPN launched in like the 209 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,040 90s and 2000s, which I think for most people that corresponds 210 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,880 with the what they would consider the golden era of ESPN. 211 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,200 So it wasn't just like stump the Schwab, which was a a weird 212 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,800 show, but it was a show that was like it had a purpose to it. 213 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,680 Dream Job was another one that had a great first season, a 214 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:54,600 hideous second season which you could actually make an argument 215 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:58,240 maps the entire history of ESP, NS, bad decision making. 216 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:02,080 But even things like cheap seats where they literally just stuck 217 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:07,120 the Sklar brothers in like a closet and had them watch old 218 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:10,000 films and make fun of people like Mystery Science Theater 219 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,320 3000. They were just trying things. 220 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,280 Yeah, I feel like that was the that's, that's what we're 221 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:16,680 talking about. I mean, that's basically the 222 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,520 background to this whole thing is they're not trying things 223 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,240 anymore or the things that they're trying just aren't 224 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,680 interesting to me. And it seems like you for the 225 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,800 most part. Right and well, and and this is 226 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,960 where I as we paint the picture of ESPNA lot of people 227 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:35,360 complained bitterly and like across the spectrum of of 228 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:38,600 American sports consumership, at least what we see on social 229 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:40,520 media, which I think in this case actually might be pretty 230 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,880 representative of how people feel in general. 231 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,760 That ESP NS coverage of the NBA, particularly the NBA playoffs in 232 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,920 the NBA Finals, ESP NS coverage of baseball, ESP NS coverage of 233 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:57,480 of hockey, like everything just feels incredibly lacking and 234 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,320 almost insulting to some degree if you happen to be a fan of 235 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,800 sports beyond the very, very base casual. 236 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,920 Oh, I, I recognize that those people are in uniform kind of 237 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,720 level. And it, it does kind of feel 238 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:18,760 like the things that they are trying are not really on the 239 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,320 networks anymore. There's some interesting stuff 240 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,840 on ESPN Plus, like I do like some of the things they've done 241 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,840 with Omaha Productions, but they've they've kind of settled 242 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:32,080 into this weird pattern where they've started things and then 243 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,240 they've killed them and then they started new things and 244 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,280 they've killed them again. But it all those are all kind of 245 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,280 the satellites in orbit around the the star. 246 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,800 And the star is the real issue. And that is what's on their 247 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,160 linear programming. And their linear programming has 248 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,080 descended into a kind of a hellscape from a sports 249 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,640 perspective that I don't think anybody anticipated. 250 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,400 But that kind of maps what happened in political television 251 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,600 with CNN, with CNBC or MSNBC, with Fox, where it's just a 252 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,320 bunch of people yelling at each other to no great purpose. 253 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,720 And it almost feels like it's actively attacking the people 254 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,320 who are trying to tune in for the actual news and commentary 255 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:11,680 and information that they want to get. 256 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,000 So that's the backdrop of what we're talking about here. 257 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,400 Well, there was there was a 30 Rock episode I remember where 258 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,840 Tracy Jordan was on. Was it called sports yelling or 259 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,880 whatever? And at the time it was making 260 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,520 fun of around the horn. But I feel like if you watched 261 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,760 it now, it'd almost be like relaxing compared to a lot of 262 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,920 the ESPN programming, which to be honest, I mean, I know you 263 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,160 invited me on this ESPN breakdown pod. 264 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,960 I can't watch anymore. Like I just there's no reason 265 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,480 to. I don't find it entertaining, 266 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:41,960 especially once you get rid of Zach Lowe. 267 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,760 Like I don't care about your NBA, right? 268 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,640 Any of your programming just surrounding it? 269 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,600 I, I can't do this Stephen A Smith thing, which is every 270 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,120 single thing on ESPNI can't do the Kendrick Perkins thing. 271 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,440 I don't think anyone can do the Kendrick Perkins thing. 272 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,360 And like the only person left really is Scott Van Pelt. 273 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,960 I feel like that's the only guy that I really find myself 274 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,000 gravitating to, at least on the TV side. 275 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,120 I mean, I know there's Mina Kimes and a few others here and 276 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,840 there, but I just, I, I just don't find it entertaining. 277 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,240 And I know some of it is me being biased or picky or 278 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,800 whatever you want to say it, but a lot of my friends feel the 279 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,880 same way and a lot of people I know. 280 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:22,800 I don't know if it's biased or picky. 281 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,320 I mean, it'd be one thing if it were just old people complaining 282 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,960 because that's, as we know, that's what old people do is 283 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,640 they complain. You're not old. 284 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,480 Congratulations. I mean, you're not. 285 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,920 And yeah, I mean, here's the thing. 286 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,400 I think what important to keep in mind, like when ESPN was at 287 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,480 its zenith from a cultural cool perspective, you're talking 288 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:50,600 about that period really between 1994 and 2008, let's say about a 289 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:56,800 15 year period of time. And the audience was not young 290 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,640 people. I mean, there were young people 291 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,000 that loved it, but their core audience was people who were 292 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,720 kind of in between where you are. 293 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,680 I mean, what are you 29 right now? 294 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,040 And and my age, I'm 45. So like that, that kind of 295 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,800 window there between your late 20s and your mid 40s where 296 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,360 you're still tuned in to the zeitgeist, you're still tuned in 297 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,080 to what's going on. You're a fan of sports, you're 298 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,560 buying tickets, you're going to games when you can, you're 299 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,960 watching games regularly. Like that was ESPN score 300 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,920 audience and it's weird that so many people in that particular 301 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,720 audience very much share the opinion that you have where they 302 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,040 don't watch anymore. It's like it's not for me. 303 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,280 And I agree. It's like, you know, the the 304 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,840 Scott Van Pelt Sports Center and what he does with hosting 305 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:50,520 various things just sticks out in such a fascinating way 306 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,880 because it is so clearly of another era than what ESPN is 307 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,960 doing right now with all of their shows. 308 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,600 And, you know, so you, you look through the, you know, 309 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,520 conceptually what we're talking about in terms of, say, the Zach 310 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:04,760 Lowe thing. So let's start there. 311 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,640 So ESPN, you know, they went out and they bought a bunch of 312 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,720 talent from various places. You know, they bring Zach Lowe 313 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,160 in and they make him kind of the centerpiece of their 314 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,040 intellectual coverage of basketball. 315 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,720 And they've got other people. And I I will say it's not just 316 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,880 Scott Van Pelt that sticks out as kind of not belonging within 317 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,480 the mix. I think Brian Windhorst has 318 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,160 developed into that kind of a guy. 319 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,120 I think Tim Legler has, you know, been pretty good in that 320 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,160 spectrum. They've got some other anchors 321 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,480 that I like. Like I will always if I've got 322 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,240 ESPN on and Sports Center comes on and Nicole Briscoe is 323 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,800 hosting, I will watch Nicole Briscoe hosting Sports Center. 324 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,400 I just think she's, she might be one of my top five favorite 325 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,640 broadcasters across the board right now in sports media. 326 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,120 But so much of their sports specific coverage has become 327 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,120 about debate and it has become about opinions that don't really 328 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,480 have nuance, aren't grounded in anything. 329 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,960 They're grounded it, well, they're not really, like I said, 330 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:07,880 they're not grounded in anything, but they're focused so 331 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:16,040 much on a very surface level perception of what a casual 332 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,000 sports fan or someone who doesn't really love sports but 333 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:24,319 loves the idea of a city or the idea of fandom might be 334 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,960 interested in talking about. And the weird thing is like it's 335 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,440 across all of their sports, but it it hits the hardest with the 336 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,920 with their NBA coverage. And when I think about Zach 337 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,240 Lowe, like Zach Lowe represents to some degree exactly the wrong 338 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:44,520 kind of content for ESPN in that there's there's nuance involved. 339 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,960 If you listen to his podcast, which I do pretty regularly now 340 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,280 like, and, and this has been the case even when he had a podcast 341 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,000 at ESPN. He's not making a lot of crazy 342 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,640 proclamations. He's a good interviewer. 343 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,320 He has a lot of interesting thoughts, but they're always 344 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,280 grounded in his reporting. And that's not what you're 345 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,720 getting out of Stephen A Smith. It's not what you're getting 346 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,240 certainly out of Kendrick Perkins. 347 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,840 It's not what you're getting out of a lot of these guys who are, 348 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,080 you know, on on their coverage and even even the people that 349 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,600 they have where you do feel like they might be able to contribute 350 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,840 in some positive way. The formatting with which they 351 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,600 do these shows doesn't showcase the good things that those 352 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:25,920 people have to say. And this is something we've 353 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,240 heard Bill Simmons complain about. 354 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,920 It's something we, you know, we feel complain about it. 355 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,120 It's like it's not just like a white male perspective. 356 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:36,680 It's like everything is so overproduced and so short and so 357 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,440 segmented that it ends up that nuance and depth are the first 358 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,360 things to go with most of the things that are on their linear 359 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:45,760 programming. And that's unfortunate. 360 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,800 You almost can't blame Stephen A or I mean, you, you can and we 361 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,200 will. But you can't get mad at them 362 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,960 when they have 30 seconds to do a halftime show. 363 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,200 And it's like we come back, we see two, you know, quick 364 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,480 highlights of usually the Lakers. 365 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,200 And then Stephen A will say something inane and something 366 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,560 random about how this player isn't playing. 367 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,080 I mean, Simmons does the whole step up thing, which at this 368 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,160 point feels like he's just wants to say players should step up. 369 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,920 But Stephen A will say this player needs to step up, 370 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,320 Whatever. And then Perkins will say, I 371 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,280 don't know. They yell at each other for 45 372 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,560 seconds and then they send it to a break again. 373 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,120 You know, Malika Andrews will send it to a break. 374 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:30,800 They'll do that one more time. And then the game starts again. 375 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,280 And at this point, just show that, show more ads, you know, 376 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,520 like you don't even have to have a like, I don't think anyone's 377 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,400 satisfied. Like I can't imagine ESP NS 378 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,520 themselves are satisfied. I can't imagine the NBA 379 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,240 satisfied. Like I don't get the point of 380 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,800 any of that. This is where I'm not totally 381 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,360 sure. I mean, I if, if it was that, if 382 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:55,480 it was something that the NBA hated, we know that they would 383 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,640 do something about it. I mean, famously the first year 384 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,160 that ESPN got the NBA contract in whatever was 2002, they had 385 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,000 Brad Nessler as their lead play by play guy and David Stern like 386 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,760 went nuts behind the scenes, like screamed at every executive 387 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,960 at at ESPN and and I think they would hired Marv Albert to come 388 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,240 in and do play by play that next year. 389 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,240 I know David Stern had his critics and they he he deserved 390 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,560 them, you know, rest in rest in peace or whatever, but at least 391 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,000 he, it felt like he cared about the game more than Adam Silver 392 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,960 does. And you can't tell me that the 393 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,080 NBA product looks better now. I mean, it does TV wise in terms 394 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,680 of like graphics and cameras and all that, but in terms of it 395 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:46,120 mattering, you watch like a 2013 or a 2008 highlight clip and it 396 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,120 just looks better. I mean, maybe I'm being insane, 397 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,040 but I don't it just, it looks like a better product. 398 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,520 It there's more gravitas to the whole thing. 399 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,160 It just, it feels like there's energy that there just isn't. 400 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,280 Anymore you know, it's weird because I used to feel that way 401 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,920 and then I you know my team made it to the finals this and I 402 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,680 didn't feel that way anymore and I will say the in person 403 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:14,480 experience was pretty incredible you. 404 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,320 You felt that at the game, not? And that's what I mean, it's 405 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,480 like it's there. It's not being captured 406 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,280 particularly well. Like, I went to multiple Pacers 407 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,120 games. I went to a Finals, you know, 408 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,840 to, to two of the Finals games. I went to Game 3 and I went to 409 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,040 Game 6 and, and the energy was off the charts. 410 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:33,880 The one I didn't go to was game four. 411 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,360 And it was shocking how muted the broadcast was in relation to 412 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:41,720 everything else. And so, you know, when I, when I 413 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,840 think about it, I'm just kind of like there's something off in 414 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,360 terms of the way that the presentation is happening. 415 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,680 And, you know, I think TNT was not having similar problems with 416 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,840 their game broadcast. So I thought that the coverage 417 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,760 of Pacers, Knicks was really good. 418 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,720 And it wasn't just obviously the, the, the game broadcast 419 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,200 itself. It was also the, you know, the 420 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,440 inside the NBA and, and their overall coverage surrounding the 421 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,360 games. And it's an interesting contrast 422 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:12,520 because that contrast isn't going to exist anymore because 423 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,720 there is no more TNTNBA coverage. 424 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,360 There's no more inside the NBA. And the NBA felt perfectly happy 425 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:21,520 with jumping into bed with ESPN for most of it. 426 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:27,320 And then NBC, who notoriously does a bad job, in my opinion, 427 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,200 of making their coverage not look fake. 428 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,560 If you look at Sunday Night Football. 429 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,320 It's just not to say it's being so inorganic next to what CBS 430 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,200 and Fox do with their coverage, in my opinion, but that and that 431 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,480 may be kind of the heart of some of the issue with like the 432 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,240 Stephen A shtick. It feels forced to a ridiculous 433 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,240 extreme. You know, like, you know, 434 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,480 there's always been this struggle. 435 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,280 And I know that you had a question about this later, but 436 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:59,960 like the the whole concept of ESPN taking over inside the NBA 437 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,640 and why they haven't been able to duplicate that despite 438 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,640 throwing the kitchen sink at NBA coverage in particular. 439 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,200 They've tried so many different people and so many different 440 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,280 formats. And they've had they had, you 441 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,560 know, they had Magic Johnson and Bill Simmons and Sage Steele and 442 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,960 a bunch of people that I've lost track of over the course of time 443 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:20,840 and it never works. And, you know, and it's 444 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,000 interesting because Simmons always blames the producers. 445 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,840 And I think that there's something to be said for that 446 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,240 because I don't know that the ESPN producers and whether 447 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,400 they're doing this on their own accord or whether they're doing 448 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,760 this because of orders that are coming down from up high, just 449 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,000 don't know what they're doing. But the, the, the concern I 450 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,560 guess I have with the whole process is that there is a 451 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,320 there's a lack of organic conversation. 452 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,480 There's a lack of, of flow even in the game broadcast. 453 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,200 And and this is where it's like, I didn't think Reggie Miller was 454 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,480 a good commentator and I don't really like listening to Stan 455 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,520 Van Gundy talk, but even that kind of awkward pairing with 456 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,560 Brian Anderson was miles better than what we got out of any of 457 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,360 the games with Breen, Doris Burke and Richard Jefferson. 458 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,000 And I don't even know if we can blame them because again, it's 459 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:13,160 like, if your studio shows feel stilted and in and inorganic and 460 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,960 like forced, then your game broadcast also feel that way. 461 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,520 It's probably not the broadcaster's fault. 462 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,240 It's probably the production orders that they're running 463 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,360 with, and this is something that feels like it extends to a bunch 464 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:29,920 of different areas of the ESPN, you know, family of content. 465 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,760 I have like 1000 points slash questions off of that. 466 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,440 This this could be the first 12 hour podcast. 467 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,000 Let's start with the broadcast itself. 468 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,120 Yeah. Was am I losing my mind or was 469 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:48,880 Doris Burke better? Like she used to be good, right? 470 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,160 Like, I don't want to attack her. 471 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,640 I mean, Richard Jefferson also is annoying, but like Doris 472 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,000 Burke, I feel like five years ago I was in the bag for her. 473 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,040 I was obsessed with. I was like, this person knows 474 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,640 what she's talking about. She is funny, she's interesting. 475 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,560 And maybe it's just the combination of people they had, 476 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,440 but it just didn't work at all. Where it felt like they were 477 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,400 attacking each other to get points across. 478 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:17,520 It felt like they didn't really care about the games in a way 479 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,240 that they were like just trying to push it to the end in some 480 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:21,800 ways. I don't. 481 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,880 It just there were so many times, I mean, we talked about, 482 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,760 I think this may have been the impetus for this whole thing was 483 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,080 Rick Carlisle yelling at the refs and them saying, oh, he's 484 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,120 upset, but then never saying what he was upset about, why he 485 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,560 was upset, why he was annoyed. And then they just let it go and 486 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,480 you're like, this is the most important thing that's happened 487 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,960 in the last 20 minutes and we're going to get no information on 488 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,560 this. So it goes back to something you 489 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,200 asked earlier, which was does that, you know, does Adam Silver 490 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,800 care about the game the same way that David Stern does? 491 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,800 And I think he does, but I don't think he understands the 492 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,240 presentation of the game NBA wise and what it means to be 493 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,720 partnered with ESPN as as your primary partner as opposed to 494 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,520 basically having them share the stage with Turner. 495 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,160 Because what Turner always did really well was they presented 496 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,520 the game respectfully, but they also presented the game in a 497 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,120 style that was honest. And I feel like the problem with 498 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:20,040 a lot of ESP NS coverage is it's not, it doesn't feel honest. 499 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:26,360 It doesn't feel like it's coming from a place of, of joy or, or 500 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:28,360 interest. And this is actually, I think 501 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:30,560 where, oh, I know a lot of Pacers fans got really 502 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,160 frustrated with the way ESPN covered the games in the Finals 503 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:41,080 because all ESPN seemed to want to talk about was either Shay 504 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,560 Gildrus, Alexander or how nobody was watching the finals in one 505 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,120 way or another because they were small market teams like they 506 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,840 were they were pining for something that wasn't there. 507 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,240 There was no effort to build up the Pacers or the Thunder. 508 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,680 I mean, you know, Scott Van Pelt goes on his podcast and actually 509 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,000 like issues of mea culpa. And it was like we didn't see 510 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,560 this team coming. We didn't build them up 511 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,040 effectively. We didn't do our jobs 512 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,520 essentially. At least he said he didn't do 513 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,440 his. And it kind of it, it hits to a 514 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,000 larger point in general. The Doris Burke thing is 515 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,040 interesting because I do feel like her commentary has gotten 516 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,920 less effective and and and less good because the NBA seems to 517 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,040 think, well we can't have people questioning the referees, which 518 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,800 I agree with. Although I'll note if you watch 519 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,880 an NFL broadcast, people question the calls of the 520 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,760 referees all the time and it doesn't. 521 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,640 It's gotten much better. I feel like he used to be much 522 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,920 more safe and he'll, he'll attack someone now. 523 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,080 I mean, I know we were talking about NBC, but I, I think he's 524 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,080 good. I mean, maybe it's just that 525 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,000 everyone else has gotten a little worse just in general, 526 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,680 but I think he knows what he's doing and he I respect when he 527 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,280 when he makes a point, he really digs into it and no one's doing 528 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,040 that on ESPI. Feel like I was listening to 529 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:04,320 Zach Lowe before too, and he was kind of not trashing, but like 530 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,520 really annoyed. It seemed like with LeBron and 531 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,400 with Lebron's whole shtick in LA and trying to go somewhere else 532 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,120 and it felt genuine because he's not constantly attacking LeBron. 533 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:16,760 You know, at a certain point Skip Bayless says LA bum and 534 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,000 you're like, well, this is just he needs to put out a tweet 535 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,120 today. You know, he needs to do 536 00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,040 something. And Stephen A's like that too, 537 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,600 where he's like attacking Tyrese or he's attacking Giannis or 538 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,960 he's and it's just like, we know you're doing this for clicks 539 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,680 when Zach Lowe's doing it, it just feels like an organic thing 540 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,360 that he's talking about, that he just is annoyed by this whole 541 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,120 rigmarole of this whole thing, you know? 542 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,080 Yeah, no, I think it's a good point. 543 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,400 And it does feel like so much of what happens with ESP NS content 544 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,840 is very calculated. And I think that, I mean, 545 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,880 there's always a certain degree of calculus in any sports 546 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:52,680 broadcast, any broadcasting in general. 547 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,600 I mean, I look, I I work in this industry part time. 548 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,560 That's what, that's what it's going to. 549 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,480 Be but it, but it's forcing it every day for the sake of having 550 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,600 content to put out is frankly, people see through that very 551 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,480 quickly. And I think that that's what's 552 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,600 happened with a lot of ESP NS coverage now. 553 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,200 You know, it's, it's also interesting because I think the 554 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:20,920 NBA in general historically suffers from a lot of 555 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:26,040 astroturfing of, of fan bases. Like, there's a lot of I've 556 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,440 always been fascinated by the fact that the NBA has the 557 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:34,320 youngest, average aged fan of any of the four major sports and 558 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,560 has for like 40 years. At some point. 559 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,320 You would think their audience would age, but it feels like 560 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,000 their audience kind of disappears between ages 35 and 561 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,440 45 because people get tired of how infantile a lot of the 562 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,720 storylines tend to be. And I feel like ESPN to some 563 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,760 degree does the NBA disservice because they feed into that 564 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,960 because a lot of what does get talked about is either 565 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,480 incredibly surface level stuff or it's only focused on a very 566 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,720 small number of stars or a very small number of teams. 567 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,320 It doesn't take into account the breadth of the league and the 568 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,080 way that the league has a ton of interesting players, has a ton 569 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,440 of interesting teams, has a bunch of you know, there's 570 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,720 there's a bunch of different methodologies by which teams go 571 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,320 about things and you hear about it feels like none of that on 572 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,240 ESP NS primary programming. And when I think about the way 573 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,600 that they are like, you know, that they tried to cover other 574 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,720 sports. Their NFL coverage has gradually 575 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,360 grown into that as well, where the ton of Cowboys, the ton of 576 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,920 giants, you know, they'll be occasional players that'll pop 577 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,920 up and then there'll be certain teams that they have to talk 578 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,440 about, but they clearly don't want to like they, you know, 579 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,520 there's a there's just a real resistance to covering the whole 580 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,240 sport. And I, and I do think that part 581 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,800 of this issue is that if you think about the history of ESPN 582 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,920 when they came of age in that period, we're mentioning 583 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,360 eighties, 90s, early 2000s, they could be the national network 584 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,240 for everybody. And you know, they're going to 585 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,560 cover the games, they're going to cover the events, things like 586 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,920 that. You know, I can't ever remember 587 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,920 sitting around during the 2000 Finals and saying, God, their 588 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,040 coverage of the Pacers sucks. Like it never even would have 589 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,320 occurred to me to think that way. 590 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:24,640 But part of that time period was there was vibrant local media, 591 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,680 multiple outlets in local in the local media that would cover 592 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,560 these teams effectively. Now, I think New York still has 593 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,480 that. I think LA has that to to a 594 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,280 similar degree. Chicago has it. 595 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,440 Most of the other cities in in these leagues don't have that. 596 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,920 I mean, the Indy Star is behind a paywall. 597 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,840 Local television is generally doing very base level stories. 598 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,760 There's not really a local place to go for coverage of your team. 599 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,240 So people look to ESPN and instead they find ESPN is, you 600 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,480 know, basically doing the LeBron fandom thing. 601 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,720 Like, you know, they're covering the the Lakers, Cowboys, Yankees 602 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,400 and maybe one or two other teams sprinkled in. 603 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,400 And I think people get resentful of that because it's like, how 604 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,960 can you call yourself the worldwide Leader if you're only 605 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,760 covering a small part of the of the league? 606 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,400 And they do they're, they don't seem at all interested in 607 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,520 disabusing people of that notion. 608 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,840 They are instead just like, yeah, that's what we do. 609 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,680 We're unapologetic about it. And we're going to do it over 610 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,720 and over and over again because we know that it's going to get 611 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,440 whatever click numbers we need or whatever ad numbers we need 612 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,760 to keep the network going. And there's another kind of more 613 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,440 nefarious aspect to all of this that we'll talk about later. 614 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,600 But that seems to be the crux of a lot of the production 615 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,280 decisions that get made with these shows and even with the 616 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,080 broadcast that they do for the games. 617 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,400 It reminds me of the whole pivot to video thing, which keeps 618 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,200 which happens what, every three years. 619 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,880 Everyone decides video is like the new thing instead of writing 620 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,960 and then it disappears and then Facebook fakes the numbers and 621 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,600 that was like a whole what was that like 5-6 years ago at this 622 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,480 point? That was that was like a solid 623 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:03,920 decade ago, I hate to tell you that. 624 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:04,720 Was it a decade? I think. 625 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,520 It was like 2014. Fifteen. 626 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,960 Somewhere in that range. The pivot to video part, yes. 627 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,320 Well, no, yeah. And then there was like the 628 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,160 whole backlash and then this. It just keeps happening. 629 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,160 And ESPN is doing this. It's it's a real chicken or the 630 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,880 egg situation. I'm just like rambling at this 631 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,800 point for this podcast. There's a podcaster for and 632 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,680 where it's like, if we give you more interesting information, 633 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,120 eventually you'll know these teams more and you'll be more 634 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,040 invested when the Pacers are in the finals, when the Thunder are 635 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,640 in the finals. And if we don't show you any of 636 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,960 their games during the regular season, why would you care about 637 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:44,440 these teams? And you just, I just get so mad 638 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:49,160 thinking about how how much nothing there is on these, yeah, 639 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,840 on these channels. Part of it is also, and I think 640 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,840 this kind of goes back to we have to go to ESP NS NFL 641 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,120 coverage and look at what happened there where ESPN tried 642 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,640 to essentially have it both ways. 643 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,600 They wanted to have a robust investigative journalism center 644 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,520 that would do hard hitting stories so that they could feel 645 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,120 good about themselves in The Newsroom. 646 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,520 But then they also wanted to have a strong commercial 647 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:18,520 relationship with the NFL. And the NFL was like, you can't 648 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,639 do both of these things. You you can't go report on Ray 649 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:24,960 Rice and then expect to get our best games on Monday Night 650 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,520 Football. Like it's not going to work that 651 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,239 way. And you know, John Skipper was 652 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,320 like, what? We're going to stick to our 653 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,760 principles. And ESPN kept getting worse and 654 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,400 worse and in terms worse and worse games. 655 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,760 Then Jimmy Pitaro gets hired and you go back and read the Brian 656 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,760 Curtis articles from The Ringer about this. 657 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,800 You know, the, the fixing of the, the mending of the fences 658 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,520 and the manning of defenses was essentially ESPN agreeing to not 659 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,199 say nasty things about the NFL. And we'll then you'll, we'll 660 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,240 play ball with you. Well, that arrangement clearly 661 00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,880 happens with the NBA as well. Like there's very few actual 662 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,120 deep critical things or investigative things that are 663 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,400 occurring with the NBA that ESPN is originating. 664 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,760 And when they do them, it's always couched in very specific 665 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,280 terminologies. It it all feels very sanitized 666 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,440 because these are corporate partners that they can't afford 667 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,520 to give up. I mean, the, oh, sorry, but the, 668 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,560 the Malik Beasley thing, I mean, that's the whole that's we've 669 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,440 talked about ESPN bet plenty of times. 670 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,800 And is that the more nefarious thing you were hitting towards? 671 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,480 OK, see what I mean? I'm I'm following along. 672 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,800 The ESPN bet thing I think is fascinating because what you 673 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:42,520 have to keep in mind is ESPN got rich, really rich for years, 674 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,880 decades, because they had, unlike most of their partners in 675 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,560 or most of the other places in media, they had two completely 676 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,280 separate revenue streams. They had an advertising revenue 677 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,240 stream, which is very lucrative. And then they had the subscriber 678 00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:59,400 revenue stream because all of the people that had basic cable 679 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,760 were paying essentially, you know, by the late aughts, early 680 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:09,880 20 tens, everybody was paying 7 to $9 per month to ESPN, even if 681 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,000 you didn't watch it at all, because it was bundled with 682 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,960 basic cable. And if they it had to be there 683 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,960 like no one was gonna So many people would have left if ESPN 684 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,880 wasn't part of the deal. And that worked until people 685 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,000 started cutting the cord about 2014. 686 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,360 Well, we're eleven years into that and I think we've lost like 687 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:35,160 40 or 50,000 cable subscribers and that revenue's just not 688 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,720 there at the same level anymore. And, and it's going to continue 689 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:43,280 to go down South. ESPN, you know, they because 690 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,520 they have to keep going out and buying live, live game rights 691 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,200 and, and they have to keep bidding on things, had to make a 692 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,360 decision about how they were going to generate that extra 693 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,600 revenue to try to make up the revenue that they were no longer 694 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:55,680 making. Because keep in mind, they were 695 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,600 like a profit Center for Disney who has had its own issues from 696 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,400 a budgetary perspective, as I think those of you who follow 697 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:09,160 their stock prices are aware of. And what ends up happening is 698 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:16,760 they create, they buy back a, a sports book that was in 699 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,000 partnership with Barstool, which I think is hilarious. 700 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,840 And they rebranded the ESPN BET and they built so much of their 701 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,800 future earnings potential around ESPN BET. 702 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,640 But what that requires is being on really friendly terms with as 703 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,000 many sports leagues as possible because you have to have access 704 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,280 to the data, you have to have access to, you know, doing all 705 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,480 of these, these special related items. 706 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,560 You have to be able to build content out. 707 00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:44,040 You got people making and I mean, ESP NS not alone in this. 708 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,800 And I want to, I want to make that clear that, you know, 709 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,720 they're, they're not the only ones who have their talent like 710 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,440 giving like their best wagers for the night. 711 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,720 But the difference is they're the rights holders and they are 712 00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:58,280 supposed to be the worldwide leader in sports. 713 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,800 And what they've done is essentially backed themselves 714 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,640 into a financial corner where that's that's got to work 715 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,360 because they don't really have a Plan B, which means they can't 716 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,240 really be that critical of the sports that they cover. 717 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,200 They can't risk doing a lot of in depth analysis because they 718 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,880 really need to be driving people to the ESPN bet platform to make 719 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,680 their wagers and continue to bring in that percentage of 720 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,040 money that they're getting off of those. 721 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,120 That's that's the game right now. 722 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,600 It's a very, it's a very different type of game than ESP 723 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,200 NS ever had to be involved in before. 724 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,400 And I don't think they figured out really how to do it 725 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,520 effectively. Do you use ESPN Bet? 726 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,480 No. Do you? 727 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:38,800 You'll gamble here and there, right? 728 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,200 Yeah, I, I. Actually, bet. 729 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,000 I've, I, I've used several of the platforms. 730 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,520 I I I'm not interested in ESPN bet because I don't gamble that 731 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,760 much first of. All I'm the same way where I I 732 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,560 have a DraftKings app. I'll bet I'll put $5 every so 733 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,600 often when my friends Ben or Jake tell me to. 734 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:55,320 Or Taylor. But. 735 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,040 I've gotten to the point where I'll, I'll use the Caesar's app 736 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,960 because I get points towards like rooms in Vegas at this 737 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,400 point, you know? Is is it working like it? 738 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,520 I this is like a broad question and for ESPN, you know, higher 739 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,520 ups, not really you, but is the ESPN, do people use ESPN BET 740 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,080 like is it worth the investment that they've made in and I mean 741 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,680 there. There was a piece in front 742 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,800 office Sports back in February and I haven't done a, a, a huge 743 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,000 amount of in depth research, but you know, Pen Entertainment, 744 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,720 which owns the book itself and a fourth quarter loss of $109 745 00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:33,800 million, which, which some of you may have seen, they missed 746 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,200 analyst forecasts. And they, I think what I saw was 747 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,480 like in New York, Illinois and New Jersey, which are the top 748 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,760 three states for, for sports wagering. 749 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,120 ESPN bet has 1 to 2% of the market in terms of revenue, 750 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:56,160 which is the, the, the target was 20% of the market by 2027. 751 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,200 They had a long way to go. And I, I be, I got to be honest, 752 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,560 I don't, I don't ask my friends what they're wagering on, but I 753 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,480 don't hear a lot of people saying you need to get on ESPN 754 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,760 that because that's, it's kind of like the, it's like when we, 755 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,800 when we got legalized in certain places, people would go drive to 756 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,720 the dispensary, they would buy things. 757 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,240 I don't, I don't know a ton of people who are like, Hey, you 758 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,920 got to try this type of gummy out or it's a personal thing. 759 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,840 And, and I think for for a lot of people, gambling apps. 760 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,560 Well, I've told people like, you know, the Caesar's app is 761 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,120 actually really good. You should try that. 762 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,080 I like it better than, you know, like the Bet MGM app or the OR 763 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,960 the DraftKings app. But you don't care like I don't. 764 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,600 Care, I'm in and I'm not you know, I see the ads, I've got 765 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,040 Aaron Dolan, you know, giving giving pics on on my screen. 766 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,160 It's not making me download the ESPN bet app. 767 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,000 So if the gambit here is we're going to take over 1/5 of the 768 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:56,440 marketplace in a four year span of time, I don't know what the 769 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:58,520 hell they thought they were going to do with that. 770 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,000 But I, I don't see it. I don't see it resonating at 771 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,440 this point. Yeah, I mean, I run a gambling 772 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,720 podcast. I'm not, I'm not hosting, but 773 00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:10,080 I'm on it. They've never once we don't have 774 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,400 any deals with FanDuel or DraftKings or Caesars or any of 775 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,680 these other sports books. They've never once mentioned 776 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,280 ESPN Bet. I bet you look at every 777 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:22,520 transcript of the 1000 or so episodes we've had and not once 778 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,960 has ESPN Bet been mentioned. And I know that's a very 779 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,880 specific example, but it's every podcast I listen to. 780 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,160 I mean, obviously they have deals with FanDuel, DraftKings, 781 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,800 whatever. And ESPN obviously will promote 782 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,120 ESPN BET because they have to at this point. 783 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,960 But any other podcast outside of ESPN is not referencing ESPN 784 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,520 BET, at least that I've heard of. 785 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,000 And at that point, you're so ingrained in what you have and 786 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,760 ESPN, like I'm sure each of these gambling sites have 787 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,720 different like, perks and different reasons to get on. 788 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,200 But at a certain point, you have enough apps. 789 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,040 I mean, we've talked about apps in general, and that was like a 790 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,000 whole Bill Simmons Grantland thing. 791 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:03,200 But there's a finite amount of space where you can be betting. 792 00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:06,280 And it doesn't really make sense that someone would go over to a 793 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,840 different one, especially when they're so locked in on one. 794 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,280 Right. Well, it's like if you've 795 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,360 already deposited money in one or two, yeah, why get another 796 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:16,680 one? Like there's no compelling 797 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,400 reason to. And, and, and so I think it's, 798 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,720 again, it's one of those things where, you know, Disney hemmed 799 00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:24,280 and hawed over what they were doing. 800 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,240 And I part of the problem it's, and it's ironic because like if 801 00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:31,200 you go back to the history of Deadspin, like Nick Denton 802 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,600 wanted them to start like a, a sports GAMBLING SITE. 803 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,720 This is what, 2005 or whatever it was, which no one was talking 804 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:40,560 about sports gambling that wasn't in jail at that point. 805 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,600 Well, ESPN hated sports Gantt. They weren't allowed to mention 806 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,280 it. Like none of the broadcasters, 807 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,240 Simmons had a hole back and forth with them in Page 2. 808 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:53,560 But like the the guy who ranespn.com left ESPN to go form 809 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,720 a site that covered gambling in like what, 2017? 810 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:00,880 That was, you know, that that was you know, that was a big 811 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,880 move. But that like the ship had 812 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,000 sailed by that point. They took so long to get to the 813 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,000 point where they like, hey, we got to make this our central 814 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,280 thing that it it was too late. I think now maybe they'll make 815 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,720 big strides here, Who knows? I'm just not seeing it happen. 816 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:17,640 But I I think as a factor of the coverage, it hurts. 817 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,600 I don't know if it hurts necessarily in terms of the NBA 818 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,160 coverage, what what they're talking about, because it's not 819 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,480 necessarily directly affecting the hot take ishness of what's 820 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,920 happening on the shows, nor is it necessarily affecting the 821 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,040 content of the broadcast per SE. But it it I do think it ties 822 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,080 back to this idea that they're kind of caught between a bunch 823 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,840 of different worlds, but they can't afford to piss the NBA 824 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,120 off. They can't afford to piss the 825 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,200 NFL off. So it ends up turning the volume 826 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,640 down on what might be insightful things and it ends up causing 827 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,680 them to bring people in whose primary stock and trade is just 828 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,720 spouting off things that can go on the Internet later, even if 829 00:43:57,720 --> 00:43:59,320 they're not particularly interesting. 830 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:02,640 And I guess that's the thing. It's like the utility of Stephen 831 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,640 A Smith yelling into a camera feels like it has a shelf life. 832 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,880 And it did, In fact, as people have often forgotten, like, ESPN 833 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,880 fired Stephen A Smith once before, and he spent, like, 834 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,200 three years in the wilderness, and then they brought him back. 835 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,600 Do you remember this? No, I don't remember this. 836 00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:22,200 Yeah. No. 837 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,480 Back in. He was like, you know, he was 838 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:33,440 big in in two, like, like O4 to O9 or O5 to O9. 839 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,400 He had this meteoric rise. And then there was a contract 840 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,600 dispute in 2009. So did they technically tell 841 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,200 they fire him? I guess not. 842 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,760 They Yeah. They just didn't renew it. 843 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,160 We was off the air for two years and then they brought him back 844 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,520 in 2011. I've blocked this all out of my 845 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,040 memory. That was probably the best two 846 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,160 years of my life. I don't remember any of. 847 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,920 I don't remember any of it. I Yeah, I mean, but it's not, I 848 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,440 don't think it's just social media that's exhausted of it. 849 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,480 It's, I mean, I'm just from personal experience. 850 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,240 It's my dad, it's my mom. Like it's people just next to 851 00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:12,640 the TV who just hear him Skip Bayless, whoever the guy is, 852 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,080 they're just, they just start yelling and there's certain 853 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,400 points like, I don't need to watch this anymore. 854 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,520 I mean, it's the same thing with Fox News, the same thing with 855 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,720 CNNI mean, it's they're all the same at this point, but. 856 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:23,880 Well, here's the here's the issue. 857 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,000 Clearly people do watch at least in some numbers, because they 858 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,280 that wouldn't be a method that gets used across all the 859 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,920 television. But I do think that we've gotten 860 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,600 to a point these things are generational to some degree. 861 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,440 And I do think we've gotten to a point where the number of people 862 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:44,080 who are willing to watch that consistently and have that be 863 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,640 the primary thing that they're looking at gets less and less. 864 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,960 Now, obviously a lot of it these days is going to be geared 865 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,040 towards the social media audience, but the problem with 866 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,640 the social media audience is that it's not a good sports 867 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,040 audience from a fandom perspective. 868 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:06,280 And, and, and what I mean by that is what works on Tiktok or 869 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,280 what works on Instagram Reels is not really synonymous with what 870 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,400 works in terms of building fandom. 871 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:19,040 And I think for the NBA in particular, fandom of the NBA is 872 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,280 largely centered around players, but it also can be centered 873 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:23,840 around teams. And I think a lot of times the 874 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,200 team aspect has been left behind, you know, perhaps 875 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:28,440 through the detriment of the league. 876 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,560 And that is hard to capture if you're focusing mostly on people 877 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,720 saying outrageous things to try to get attention. 878 00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:42,280 And so you're dealing with a lot of shallow fan observation, not 879 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,600 a lot of depth being built, not a lot of interest in the league 880 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:51,400 outside of spectacular moments. And while the league definitely 881 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,320 has spectacular moments, it's also got strategy and really 882 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,000 interesting things that happened throughout NF LS the same way, 883 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,880 you know, but ESP NS always been drawn to the highlight. 884 00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:04,280 And I think that DNA is hard to shake. 885 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,280 So whether it's a highlight of somebody yelling or a highlight 886 00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:12,000 of a dunk, that is it's eye candy, but it doesn't really 887 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,000 translate into the kind of in depth coverage that everybody 888 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,480 salivates over when it comes to say inside the NBA. 889 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,120 Those are two very different things. 890 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,560 And I don't know that ESP NS ever done the in depth thing. 891 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,880 Well, at least in the last 20 years. 892 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,080 And I don't know where they get back to that. 893 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,840 But I do think that even Gen. Z is going to be looking for 894 00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,640 something more meaningful in terms of their fandom. 895 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,480 And, you know, right now, I don't know that they're getting 896 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,040 that with a lot of these sports if they're going to ESPN for the 897 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,000 basis of it, because so much of what the coverage ends up 898 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:51,280 focusing on is not that. I mean, and the exceptions stick 899 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,440 out. We mentioned Scott Van Pelt, you 900 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,240 know, college game day for the most part, does a good job of 901 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:00,800 feeling like they care about college football. 902 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,920 They'll talk about it in depth. They'll go, they'll, they'll 903 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,520 showcase things visually. And it's weird to like contrast 904 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,920 that with their college basketball coverage, which is 905 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,880 the exact opposite, where it's like the wrong people on air 906 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,680 talking about the wrong things and doing so in a way that just 907 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,720 feels very surface level to anybody who actually follows the 908 00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,200 sport closely. And it's, it's just like that. 909 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,200 There is, there are certain things that ESPN does do well, 910 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,000 but even those things you worry they're going to ruin because of 911 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,400 what else they've ruined across the network. 912 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,760 Yeah, I mean, like, I want to get back to Gen. 913 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,680 Z for a second there, but ESPN was the dream when I was growing 914 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,760 up. Like the place I wanted to work 915 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,560 was ESPN the Magazine, which feels like a lifetime ago at 916 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,640 this point. I wanted to work at Grantland. 917 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:55,600 I want to work for Page 2. Like that type of ESPN off 918 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,400 kilter, but still sports obsessed people. 919 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,000 I guess that's how I would describe it. 920 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,160 And now, like, I don't do people want to work for ESPNI mean, 921 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:05,160 this is part of the Gen. Z thing. 922 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,160 I'm sure they do because it's a big name and because it's one of 923 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,240 the few places left at a certain point. 924 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,800 Well, yeah, but and they're laying off. 925 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,880 Like, is that something that they're striving for? 926 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,920 Like when you when you work, when you work with your 927 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,920 students, who are all Gen. Z at this point, unless there's 928 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,560 one guy just still hanging around, you know, I was going to 929 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,680 name names, but. Never Kuwait, Greg. 930 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:35,200 Man, it feels, it feels so I remember the like, I remember we 931 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,480 did the interview like the end of what was it the end of senior 932 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,160 year interview where you asked like, what are your favorite 933 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:42,680 restaurants? What'd you learn in college? 934 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,720 And that feels like 5 days ago. Yeah. 935 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:47,920 And it's like, that was nine years, 9-8 years ago at. 936 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,280 This eight years ago? Yeah, time flies. 937 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:50,920 It really does. But like what? 938 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,280 What is Gen. Z that what what are your 939 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:53,760 students thinking? Do they watch these things? 940 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,000 Do they care about these things? It's. 941 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,800 Weird, because I mean, one of the things I'll talk about a lot 942 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,680 with our our faculty members that teach in sports media is 943 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,560 they don't watch a ton of it or they don't pay close enough 944 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,240 attention to it to really like this is this is not a criticism 945 00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:10,760 of Gen. Z. 946 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,880 It's more it's, it's not a criticism of anything. 947 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,640 It's just the evolving nature of media. 948 00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:19,440 I feel like millennials right up to the end of the millennial 949 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:24,960 generation, there were so few venues to get highlights, news, 950 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,040 information. Everybody devoured all the 951 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,680 content. You you watched all the 952 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,160 broadcasts, you know, you watched SportsCenter. 953 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,440 You, you read a. Full hour of SportsCenter and 954 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,280 then I would be like, oh, I haven't seen these highlights in 955 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,200 an hour, I'll watch the other 20 minutes or whatever, you know, 956 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,600 and you end up watching the same stuff. 957 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,960 And that's just not how people consume media in that generation 958 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,400 now. And and there's nothing wrong 959 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:45,560 with it. It's just different. 960 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:51,400 And so it's it's what people consume tend to be, you know, 961 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,920 there are there are some shows that they'll consume, but it's 962 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,480 and it's not like people would be like, no, I wouldn't work at 963 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,520 ESPN, but I don't think it's the end all be all. 964 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,800 And I'd work at ESPN, you know, like just putting it out there 965 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,240 if anyone's listening. No, it's clearly if they've 966 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:06,880 listened this far. Yeah, it may not. 967 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:07,760 It may not work. You're at the. 968 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,320 Top of their list of people they work. 969 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:11,560 Fox Sports 1 is gonna hire me or something, you know? 970 00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:18,120 But I, I think that it's, it's no longer the, the primary place 971 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,200 that people want to work to. It's not like I, I, I mean, I 972 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:24,680 guess like the New York Times is still like this for people that 973 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,200 want to work in news. I don't know. 974 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:31,760 That yes, I mean that's another podcast too, but no, I'm I've 975 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,640 applied for jobs in the past New York Times. 976 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,680 I mean, there's a lot of stuff happening there, but they do 977 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,440 good work. And the same can be said about 978 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,040 ESPN. Like I know I've been trashing 979 00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,160 them and you've been critical, very smartly critical cuz you 980 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:50,720 know you have a future. But the New York Times and ESPN, 981 00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:53,880 like there's a reason they're institutions, like they matter. 982 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,760 They're big and people read them and watch them and listen to 983 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,040 them for all sorts of things. I mean, the Daily's still good, 984 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,440 right? The New York Times art critics 985 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:03,800 are still good. You know, there's specific 986 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,400 things and ESP NS the same way we're, we're naming people and 987 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,840 they matter. So I, I can see like people or 988 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,280 students looking and being like, I want to be this person or I 989 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,120 want to be, you know, someone on one of these shows. 990 00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,280 I want to work on college game day as opposed to I want to work 991 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,680 at ESPN, which has more of a negative connotation than it 992 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,760 used to, at least, Yeah. I I look, I I think ultimately 993 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,480 it really is almost dependent, But part of the problem is, 994 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:34,160 frankly, for most young aspiring sports broadcasters, they look 995 00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,800 at ESPNI don't think they can see themselves there because 996 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,680 who's on the air? You know, it's, it's mostly ex 997 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,760 athletes or it's Stephen A Smith, You know, I mean, and 998 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,720 this is a criticism I have of a lot of sports media, which at 999 00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:54,120 some point along the way, TV network executives got obsessed 1000 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,120 with the idea of we have to have a former player here. 1001 00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,000 We have to have another former player here. 1002 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,960 And it doesn't work in a lot of ways. 1003 00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,880 And there are there are certain former players that are really 1004 00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,440 good on air. You mentioned Chris Collinsworth 1005 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,640 is really good on air. I think Troy Aikman is really 1006 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,400 good on air. I mean Charles Barkley inside 1007 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,120 the NBAI mean. There are people that are ex 1008 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,040 athletes that are really good on air. 1009 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,480 But that's the exception more than the rule. 1010 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,280 There and and the and. The problem is it's a revolving 1011 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,040 door of people who are on air. I mentioned at their, you know, 1012 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,760 early on in the podcast, like, you know, the dream job 1013 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,760 unintentionally charting the terrible decision making of 1014 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,680 ESPN. The first year of dream job was 1015 00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,720 charming bunch of kids coming out of college, couple of older 1016 00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:43,720 people who really wanted to work in sports. 1017 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:47,600 And you had this whole judging thing and, and you know, Mike 1018 00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,200 Hall ends up winning it at the end. 1019 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,120 And he's had a long career. Like he works for Big 10 1020 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:52,960 Network, He worked for ESPN for a while. 1021 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,960 Year 2, they decided to do a whole show around picking the 1022 00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,720 next NBA analyst who was a former player and no one cared. 1023 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,120 And it was a terrible, like a terrible sequence. 1024 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,520 But that's, you know, no one gets invested in these people 1025 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,040 'cause they're all kind of cookie cutter. 1026 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,120 Or if they have personalities, they're generally personalities 1027 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,080 that don't resonate on air. And this is the Kendrick Perkins 1028 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,080 problem. Like, it's the Tom, it's the Tom 1029 00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,520 Brady problem, you know, it's all. 1030 00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:21,120 And I'm already dreading the Draymond Green problem, which we 1031 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,240 know is coming. But at least I will say at least 1032 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:26,160 I'll I'll give Draymond credit for this. 1033 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,960 At least Draymond says things and has opinions that are like 1034 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,440 predicated in the game that matter from a strategic 1035 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,080 perspective. I don't always agree with what 1036 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:41,240 he says, but his podcast is interesting and when he was on 1037 00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:44,760 Inside the NBA this year, I was actually legitimately impressed 1038 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,240 with the way he broke down as opposed to Kendrick Perkins, who 1039 00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:52,760 says like the most basic things over and over again and. 1040 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,440 Not even entertainingly, like that's the that's the other 1041 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:56,800 thing. Like, that's what drives me 1042 00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,360 insane is like, it's one thing with Stephen A going on these 1043 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,560 long tirades and rants, and there's a part of me like the 1044 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,440 caveman part that's like, that's fun, That's cool. 1045 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:12,160 You can see why he's worth the money. 1046 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,000 I mean, no one's worth the money he is. 1047 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,640 But why he would be paid money to talk about sports. 1048 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:22,400 Kendrick Perkins, he's mumbling. I mean that 2008 Celtics run, no 1049 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,120 one's ever like closed it off anything more. 1050 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,120 It's like when Trent Dilfer was one of their primary, you know, 1051 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:33,800 commentators or Sean Salisbury, you know, back like people get 1052 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,880 on the air and and this the way this happens, you get ATV exec 1053 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,200 who decides they're going to champion a particular athlete 1054 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,080 and then they'll champion them, champion them until the point 1055 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,480 where they're they've they've outlived their usefulness and 1056 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,640 then they're just gone. Like when was the last time you 1057 00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,040 saw is Trent Dilfer still doing media? 1058 00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,720 He he pops up on a like a Rosillo podcast or something 1059 00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:57,640 every so often, which is, which is, I mean, I love Rosillo, but 1060 00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:58,960 that's not where you want to be if you're. 1061 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,880 Trying to make it that's doing a favor to somebody. 1062 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,000 Yeah, yeah. That's him promoting it, yeah. 1063 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,640 But my point being like, we're picking on Kendrick Perkins 1064 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,040 right now, and rightfully so. But like you, you, there's this 1065 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,920 revolving door on ESPN, and Fox is not, not, not not innocent of 1066 00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,320 this either. Yeah, yeah. 1067 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:21,600 You know, like, after a while the the utility of having a 1068 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,320 former player disappears when they're not really offering 1069 00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:26,480 anything worthwhile and the audience notices that. 1070 00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,040 And the audience like the the idea that we can throw anybody 1071 00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:30,880 out there in front of the audience and they'll listen to 1072 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,520 them talk about sports. I always have this complaint 1073 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,520 with with with analysts on game broadcasts. 1074 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:40,000 Like, it's like we have to have a former player to give insight 1075 00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:41,600 into the game. No one can name the former 1076 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,400 player that's doing the game. Like did anybody know that 1077 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,920 Solomon Wilcox played in the NFL? 1078 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,040 That's just been like, oh, he went to Northwestern. 1079 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,520 You know, yeah. So that's the, the, this infects 1080 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,720 a lot of what ESPN does as well in that I guess within the 1081 00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:00,800 thought process is, Oh, well, their expertise carries the day. 1082 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,280 And then it doesn't actually carry the day because there's 1083 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,640 not a lot being contributed. There's not a lot unique. 1084 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,320 And then that person's gone and they bring another person in 1085 00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,920 after a couple of years and then they don't contribute either. 1086 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:13,880 And it's just this revolving door and it makes it hard to 1087 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,600 take anything seriously. And they're, it doesn't seem 1088 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,000 like they're trying to build anyone like it doesn't seem 1089 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:19,600 like. Well, well, no, it's more, it's 1090 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:22,080 less that they, they've, they've poured a ton. 1091 00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,640 They pour a ton. Build non athletes like they're 1092 00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,440 not investing this money or this time into people that well, we 1093 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,920 need to figure it out on air and cuz they just don't have as many 1094 00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:33,880 spots open too. I mean they're giving all this 1095 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,640 money, TSP and bet to the to to the different teams to the and 1096 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,040 the different leagues and there's just less opportunity 1097 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,440 and less people available. Yeah. 1098 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,560 So you know, you go through from a from a content perspective, 1099 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,320 you had a question about like around the horn getting getting 1100 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:51,920 cancelled. I I realized I haven't asked you 1101 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:53,480 a single question I have on this list. 1102 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,480 What happens? When you podcast with me it ends 1103 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,680 up being 2 hours and 9 questions don't get asked. 1104 00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:59,800 But I have. Yeah, but should we get into 1105 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:01,720 around the horn for a second? Yeah, let's talk. 1106 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,600 I mean, you know the. PTI and the whole like what's 1107 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,720 what's happening? Well, keep in mind both of those 1108 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,760 shows were 20 plus years old and that's a long time in 1109 00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:15,080 television. It's AI mean MASH only lasted 1110 00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,160 what like 12 years in television? 1111 00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:19,960 I mean, I think the longest running show in television 1112 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,640 history was was it Gunsmoke or Bonanza since he's still. 1113 00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,880 Going at this point. That's fair. 1114 00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,320 The the the the longest non animated show I. 1115 00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,080 I know what you're saying. Yeah, but but it's a long time 1116 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,400 and we tend to forget that a a television show on ESPN is still 1117 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,240 a television show, you know. But I do think that the concern 1118 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:44,440 there was less about talent cultivation and more about the 1119 00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:50,320 the idea that this it was hard to clip for social and it 1120 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,400 probably wasn't resonating very much with that same Gen. 1121 00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,160 Z audience that you and I talked about a few minutes ago, who's 1122 00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,880 not really conditioned to sit there and and listen to a 1123 00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,560 rotating cast of writers or or, you know, non national 1124 00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:05,240 broadcasters talk through things. 1125 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,600 Now that's no, I mean, one of you know, one of them, Courtney 1126 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:10,680 Cronin, who's one of our alums and and you know, one of my 1127 00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,440 really good friends had a great time on that show, did a 1128 00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,720 wonderful job. It's it's not a criticism of the 1129 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,120 individual people. I think it's a criticism of the 1130 00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,480 thought process of, well, how does this fit into what we're 1131 00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,280 trying to do as a network? And if you look, and again, this 1132 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,680 goes back to the ESPN bet thing, it goes back to playing nice 1133 00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,760 with networks. You know, the the the more the 1134 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,680 more rough edges in what's being offered out there, the more 1135 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,560 likely it is that someone's going to say something's going 1136 00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:44,040 to upset somebody somewhere. Why take the risk, especially if 1137 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:46,800 the ratings aren't that aren't that overwhelming. 1138 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,560 And then, you know, it was hard enough, like it was interesting 1139 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,840 when ESPN and whatever it was O3 when they added around the horn 1140 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,360 or maybe it was O2. You know, they blocked out that 1141 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:03,920 whole 5:00 hour around the horn at 5, PTI at 5:30, Sports Center 1142 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,960 at six leading into whatever the game of the evening was, college 1143 01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,120 basketball or baseball or whatever. 1144 01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,560 People don't watch TV like that anymore. 1145 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,320 They're not they're not going to sit down. 1146 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:14,920 The first of all, they're going to sit down and watch 1147 01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,080 television. But if they did, they're not 1148 01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,320 probably going to sit down and just throw ESPN on and say I'm 1149 01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:21,320 going to have this on until 10 or 11. 1150 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,760 People watching around the horn, I'm sure a good amount we're 1151 01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,400 just listening to the podcast the next day or that night or 1152 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,800 just watching a clip. I mean the what you're saying, I 1153 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,160 mean my other question is, is PTI even still on in two or 1154 01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:35,840 three years? Probably not. 1155 01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:37,600 I mean. Those guys like their sons. 1156 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:39,440 I mean, those guys are, they've been around for a while. 1157 01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,360 You guys are old. I mean, I don't, you know, 1158 01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,000 that's The thing is, is when you you think about Tony Korn, how 1159 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,720 old is Tony Kornheiser? Thank you. 1160 01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,240 Yes. Mid 70s. 76, yes. 1161 01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:52,680 I mean, I was, we've talked about this. 1162 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,360 That's the first podcast I got into was the Gorneiser Show. 1163 01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,360 I used to listen to the radio show like, you know, Andy Polen, 1164 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,320 I think was his like his his his engineer or something, or his 1165 01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,880 producer. But no, like Wilbon's 10 years 1166 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,080 younger, but he's still 66 and there's nothing. 1167 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:13,800 I mean, both of those shows, if they were going to continue 1168 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:19,720 would have been better as podcasts or as streaming shows 1169 01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:24,600 rather than necessarily being on linear in as much as I'm not 1170 01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,800 sure how important linear is in the big scheme of things. 1171 01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,160 Now, I am surprised that they didn't just say, hey, we're 1172 01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,080 going to move around the horn off the air, but we're going to 1173 01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,120 move it on to purely direct to consumer. 1174 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,960 They haven't done that. And so it does make me question 1175 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:43,840 like, was there a content reason why they decided that they 1176 01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:45,160 weren't going to go that direction? 1177 01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:46,760 I don't know. That's, that's, that's a really 1178 01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,000 fascinating point. But I do think like as the, the 1179 01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:52,200 idea that that would cultivate people that could be on air for 1180 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,440 them. I don't think that that's 1181 01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:56,280 important to them. Going back to what you said, 1182 01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,040 because, you know, I remember talking with somebody about 10 1183 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,680 years ago and they were like, they either want writers and 1184 01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,480 people with that background who are reporters who have sources, 1185 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:09,800 or they want former players and, and entertainment, entertainment 1186 01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:11,920 types of people. And they don't really need the 1187 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:13,840 riders now. Like that's not really what the 1188 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,560 game is at this point. So what's the purpose in giving 1189 01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:23,320 Harry Lyles or whoever a venue or Israel Gutierrez if we don't 1190 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:25,240 really want them on air 'cause we're not using them on 1191 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,520 SportsCenter or anything else and we're not really emphasizing 1192 01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,080 our riding product in the 1st place? 1193 01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,960 It it just kind of all use, it loses its utility at that point. 1194 01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:35,680 Yeah. I mean, we can talk about direct 1195 01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:37,440 to consumer. I mean that's a big thing 1196 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,520 obviously as well. But should we talk about the 1197 01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:40,480 website for a second? We. 1198 01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,240 Can, yeah. I mean, I maybe there's not much 1199 01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:45,560 to talk about. I mean, there's not much 1200 01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:46,920 happening on there at this point. 1201 01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,200 I mean that was. I mean again. 1202 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,560 So critical for so long. The one of the, you know, for 1203 01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,480 the, for the, for those of us who follow certain sports where 1204 01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,160 we want to get info and, and look, ESPN still employs a lot 1205 01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:02,400 of good writers. But so, like, one of my 1206 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,080 favorites is Bill Connolly, who, you know, covers college 1207 01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:09,800 football, does S&P Plus, you know, they make a big deal about 1208 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:11,440 bringing him over from SB Nation. 1209 01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:16,000 And it's it's very, very hard to find Bill Connolly's stuff on 1210 01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,120 ESPN. It's hard to find anything on 1211 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:21,200 ESPN like it's. You can find the scores, you can 1212 01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,720 find a bunch of video clips of Stephen A and whoever else 1213 01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:26,400 yelling. But if you want to find an 1214 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,040 article from anyone, especially if you want to find an old 1215 01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,240 article, I mean, you're better off Googling or using the 1216 01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,440 Wayback Machine or whatever else, or just hoping that one of 1217 01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:35,800 them tweets it out. Yeah. 1218 01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:39,640 I mean, it's which I'm, I mean, that's part part of The thing is 1219 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,240 that I find stories a lot of Times Now through Twitter, 1220 01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,080 through I was going to say Facebook, but I don't use 1221 01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:46,960 Facebook anymore. Through Reddit, through 1222 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:51,760 Instagram, like you, no one, no one's going to a website and 1223 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:55,960 just scrolling through anymore the way that they were 1015 1224 01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:59,000 years ago. But I you just think that 1225 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,160 there's like a certain level of like care where it's like the 1226 01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,000 website. I mean, it's, it's everything 1227 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,920 where it's just not usable at a lot of a lot of. 1228 01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:08,520 Times well, but I think you hit the nail on the head. 1229 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:12,160 If people aren't using it that much, then what's the point? 1230 01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,120 What's the point? And and this is again, I think 1231 01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:20,840 where we're all trying to keep up at various age levels with 1232 01:04:20,920 --> 01:04:23,240 how digital media is transitioning. 1233 01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,000 And look, what are we, what have we done for the last hour and 5 1234 01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:28,480 minutes? Are people still watching? 1235 01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:33,640 Maybe you know, Ben Wittenstein, shout out if you're still 1236 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,240 watching. I guarantee he's not, he won't 1237 01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,640 notice this at all. No way, no way, no way. 1238 01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,520 He's he's turned us off. I'm guessing the 26th minute 1239 01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:41,960 maybe. And that might just going to be 1240 01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:43,360 passed out. That's the. 1241 01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,480 I mean, it's like 730 in Chicago right now, I guess. 1242 01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:48,560 This isn't live. We're not. 1243 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,480 Who cares? No, that's my point is that 1244 01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,760 we're doing this on YouTube. I'm going to also upload it to 1245 01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:57,120 Spotify. Sure. 1246 01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:01,240 This is the venue through which a lot of not this show in 1247 01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,280 particular, although it should be this, this show, this show, 1248 01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:06,320 but this is. This and Joe Rogan these are 1249 01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:07,640 the. Top games? 1250 01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:08,600 God. OK, I'll take that. 1251 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,120 That's fine. This is the show. 1252 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,680 No, this is the venue through which people are gaining a lot 1253 01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:18,000 of their information on sports. And I, I just look at it like 1254 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:23,280 this, I, I complain about ESPN because I care about it as an 1255 01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,320 institution, I guess the same way that, you know, print 1256 01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:30,280 obsessive people felt or feel perhaps about the New York 1257 01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,480 Times, Washington Post, maybe there's others that fall into 1258 01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:38,800 that category. But realistically speaking, if 1259 01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:44,120 people aren't going to ESPN as the place of record for coverage 1260 01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:48,240 of sports, we probably should stop expecting them to act that 1261 01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,760 way because they're not going to. 1262 01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,600 And instead they're going to media that is essentially a 1263 01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:58,840 level down in terms of national spread because they want to 1264 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,080 focus on niche things that are interesting to that. 1265 01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,400 Sometimes that's your team. You know, I mean, you can 1266 01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,520 complain all about the Pacers not having coverage on ESPN, and 1267 01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:09,800 I think that that's legitimate. When you're trying to do a 1268 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,440 national television broadcast, that's the one thing where it 1269 01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,200 crosses over. Or you can the Thunder have 1270 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:17,120 similar complaints. There was not a lot of coverage 1271 01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,280 of the Thunder despite being the best team in the in the NBA. 1272 01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:22,320 And they have a better case honestly to be upset than the 1273 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:25,160 Pacers, where I mean the Pacers were good all season but the 1274 01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,520 Thunder were like. Yeah, they're the same, same in 1275 01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:28,440 the league. They were a historically. 1276 01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:32,920 Eight wins and they're still the Lakers and, you know, the 1277 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,480 Celtics and where else. So that's the case for there 1278 01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:39,440 needs to be better coverage on the website, on the broadcast 1279 01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,560 properties is that if you are the primary partner of the 1280 01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,840 league, because where else is the league media coming from? 1281 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,840 Well, but that's where it becomes regional or local and 1282 01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,920 that's where I've kind of made peace with the idea that I'll, 1283 01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:55,960 I'll turn on ESPN when they have the games, but they don't even 1284 01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,240 have all the games anymore. They in in most of these sports. 1285 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:00,680 Well, no one has the games any you know. 1286 01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:03,800 Everybody's got the games, you. Know yeah, everyone, no one has 1287 01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:04,840 the games. Everyone has the games. 1288 01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:11,160 But I, I don't get, I don't get sore about ESPN not talking, 1289 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:16,280 talking about my team unless it's directly affecting my 1290 01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,200 team's ability to do something. So like the way Indiana got 1291 01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,760 covered, Indiana football got covered by ESPN during the old 1292 01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,560 College Football Playoff thing really pissed me off and pissed 1293 01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:29,640 a lot of IU fans off. But that's because the the 1294 01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:33,120 selection, the the, the committee stuff was almost ESPN. 1295 01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:34,360 They almost. Screwed them over? 1296 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:36,720 Yeah, They almost, yeah. And, and, and, and you're just 1297 01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,280 kind of like, why is this the discourse and why are you 1298 01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,600 letting your partnership with the SEC again, going back to the 1299 01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:48,160 corporate partnership thing? Why are you letting that affect 1300 01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:49,480 the way that you're covering things? 1301 01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,960 And I think that ultimately, for a lot of fans across the 1302 01:07:52,960 --> 01:08:00,040 country, the idea that ESPN represents all of them as gone. 1303 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:04,200 And ESPN does nothing to combat that because what they seem to 1304 01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,720 be most interested in is can we get enough people watching this 1305 01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:12,360 to justify charging advertisers and can we drive people to ESPN? 1306 01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,000 Bet those seem to be the primary considerations. 1307 01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,439 And people get mad about that to a degree. 1308 01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:20,800 They should get mad about political coverage for the exact 1309 01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:22,560 same reason. And they don't get nearly as mad 1310 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,399 about that. That's really what should they 1311 01:08:24,399 --> 01:08:28,760 should be more mad about. Instead, we proxy it with ESPN 1312 01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:33,240 because again, ESPN once came from a place that felt like 1313 01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:36,880 legitimate fandom and legitimate joy and like the whole like, 1314 01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,200 this is Sports Center commercial, you know, campaign 1315 01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:42,920 that ran 20 years and was incredible and the way that they 1316 01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,880 would cover different things. It just it felt like these folks 1317 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,840 are on our side. And then progressively, they 1318 01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:52,080 felt less and less like they're on our side. 1319 01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,720 Yeah, I mean, it was, it was truly AI was looking through old 1320 01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:59,160 photos recently because my parents were moving and there 1321 01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:02,080 was a picture of me in 2006, 2007 in front of the Hollywood 1322 01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:06,279 sign and I'm wearing an ESPN shirt and it says on air talent. 1323 01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:08,680 And it's I was like 11-12 years old. 1324 01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:11,800 And it's like I was obsessed with like I wanted ESPN shirts. 1325 01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:13,720 We went to ESPN Zone, we went to the. 1326 01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,319 I remember the ESPN phone and thinking that was cool, even 1327 01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:18,600 though it was like the least cool thing that's ever existed. 1328 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:21,520 I subscribe to ESPN The Magazine. 1329 01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,319 I'm guessing you're saying next? Oh, I, I mean, I was obsessed 1330 01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:27,359 with ESPN The, I mean, that's that, that was where I wanted to 1331 01:09:27,359 --> 01:09:28,479 work. That was, that was it. 1332 01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,479 But I mean, to defend ESPN, which, you know, after an hour 1333 01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,439 and 15 minutes, it's time to start defending them. 1334 01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,520 They did try like they tried. I mean, there was the Bomani 1335 01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,760 Jones Pablo Torre show that lasted a few months. 1336 01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,359 There was the Jemele Hill Sports Center. 1337 01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:49,399 Like I, I feel like there was an attempt to make things. 1338 01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:52,120 They had the Katie Nolan streaming show but. 1339 01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:55,240 But I feel like the four personalities you just 1340 01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:59,440 highlighted all have one common problem, which is, well, 1341 01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:01,520 actually it's 2 problems. I would say 1. 1342 01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:07,360 That's a case of ESPN severely overestimating mass market 1343 01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:12,000 appeal of all of those people. Again, the the, the, the, the, 1344 01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,000 the bigger issue. And it's no issue with those 1345 01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:18,480 individuals. It's more a case study in not 1346 01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:20,560 grasping what your audience is looking for. 1347 01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,320 People didn't want to center around personalities. 1348 01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:29,640 They wanted to center around the sport writ large. 1349 01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:32,160 They wanted the moments around the sport. 1350 01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:35,160 They wanted the stories of the coaches and the athletes. 1351 01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,160 They wanted to hear people who were having legitimate, 1352 01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:42,920 interesting conversations about the sport because that was their 1353 01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:44,840 source of information about the sport. 1354 01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:47,280 And it gave them the opinions that they should think of. 1355 01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,720 But it wasn't forced on them. You know, I mean, it's like if 1356 01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:53,320 you go back and watch baseball tonight, you know, that was a it 1357 01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:57,360 was a sober discussion based show with some highlights and 1358 01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:59,120 some cool things. You had a really like level 1359 01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:03,160 headed host in Karl Ravitch and you can kind of go down the list 1360 01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:05,840 of the different shows that they would have and most of them fit 1361 01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,800 that paradigm. And but you know, the centering 1362 01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,480 around that, that group of four, like Bomani Jones, who I think 1363 01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:16,200 is incredibly intelligent, really fascinating individual in 1364 01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:20,280 media, but that is like one of the most niche people. 1365 01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:21,440 Well, that's what I'm saying, Yeah. 1366 01:11:21,440 --> 01:11:26,120 They, I feel like they tried to put the podcast on TV and that's 1367 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,640 not where the audience is. And maybe maybe you're right, 1368 01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:32,600 maybe I've just been upset and it's just not like it's not. 1369 01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:34,280 We're not putting that genie back in the bottle. 1370 01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:37,280 You know, it's like, and I just and look, I, I just, I don't 1371 01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:39,120 know what is television at this point. 1372 01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:42,520 I mean, look at what, look at what Warner Brothers and Turner 1373 01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:43,520 just did. Like they're. 1374 01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:45,360 My boss, yeah. Right. 1375 01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:48,560 Well, they just, you know, they just took the non television 1376 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:51,520 parts, put it in a different company and said we think that's 1377 01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,160 the winner. Like, that was essentially the 1378 01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:56,720 thought process. And you read everything now 1379 01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:00,400 about all these zombie cable channels that are just running 1380 01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:05,040 reruns of Law and Order SVU or, you know, Naked and Afraid or 1381 01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:07,080 whatever they're running. And they're doing better than 1382 01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:11,520 the new shows, you know, like people would rather watch old 1383 01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,680 MASH at this point, or old, you know, Frasier than anything else 1384 01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:17,800 that's new. Right, but that what that means 1385 01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:22,240 is ultimately if ESPN for all the other products that they 1386 01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:27,520 have had and, and and have currently at the core, they are 1387 01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:32,360 a television or a cable station that focuses on sports. 1388 01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,840 Now in 2025, in an era where cable channels aren't that 1389 01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:44,520 important, you don't need them to watch things and you're now 1390 01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:49,720 you've got 2-3 generations. It's never been about the the 1391 01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:53,800 method of transmission as much as like the idea that, oh, these 1392 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:56,840 people are just going to be on newspaper and and only read 1393 01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:58,240 newspapers. Mark Cuban said this in like 1394 01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:00,880 2006 or something like that when he was justifying not 1395 01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:06,080 credentialing blogs to come cover the team, but even older 1396 01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:09,760 audiences, you know, and as as the boomers continue to age and 1397 01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:11,560 as Gen. X starts to age into that, they 1398 01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,400 move with the technology. They just, they take a while to 1399 01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:19,040 follow along behind it. And the problem is ESPN hasn't 1400 01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:24,760 and and this is where ESPN is still because of who they are 1401 01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:27,520 trying to run a cable channel in an era where you can't really 1402 01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:30,040 run a cable channel. And I would present for 1403 01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:32,040 evidence. Look what's happening to CNN 1404 01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:35,720 right now. You know, CNN up still like 1405 01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,320 right now, unless unless he got fired recently, there's still 1406 01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:39,960 how much are they paying Anderson Cooper I. 1407 01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:43,240 Mean yeah, who's watching the show? 1408 01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:45,920 Why are you paying Anderson Cooper that amount? 1409 01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,200 There's no reason. There's no justification for it 1410 01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:49,800 other than that's what we did 10 years ago. 1411 01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:53,400 It's the legacy media. I mean, it's the Conde Nast, the 1412 01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:55,440 whole thing, yeah. Now, where I think you could 1413 01:13:55,440 --> 01:14:00,320 make an argument is if, if we're if we're going to, we spent a 1414 01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:02,120 bunch of time complaining about the linear network. 1415 01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,560 So if we're going to be realistic about where ESPN goes 1416 01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,640 from here, you almost have to tell them stop focusing on the 1417 01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:13,120 linear network, which is easier said than done because it's the 1418 01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:14,920 easy layup in terms of ad revenue. 1419 01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:16,320 That's where they get a lot of their money. 1420 01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,920 You can't just say we're not going to have this, but it also 1421 01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,000 can't be the centerpiece of what you're doing from a content 1422 01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:23,480 perspective. I guess my concern with ESPN 1423 01:14:23,480 --> 01:14:28,120 sometimes is that when I look at the shows that they've decided 1424 01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:30,440 to air, I look at a lot of the Meadowlark stuff that they were 1425 01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:31,920 picking up. You know, I look at the lot of 1426 01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:35,720 the Omaha production stuff and I like, I like it in pieces, but 1427 01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,560 there's very little there where I watch it. 1428 01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:41,000 And I'm like, I got to watch that every day even like I know 1429 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,800 the Pablo Torre thing. They they keep trying to elbow 1430 01:14:43,800 --> 01:14:48,440 their way into the conversation nationally, but it again, it 1431 01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:51,880 feels forced in a lot of ways, in a way that it shouldn't if it 1432 01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,640 was. I mean, if you compare that to 1433 01:14:54,640 --> 01:15:00,240 actually like big successful podcasts, and I would throw Pat 1434 01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:02,160 McAfee into this mix. And I know you wanted to talk 1435 01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:05,040 about him a little bit. They feel that like it feels 1436 01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:07,800 like ESP NS trying to astroturf their way into something that 1437 01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,520 other people are doing naturally, because they're still 1438 01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:12,680 handcuffed to all these corporate procedures that 1439 01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:15,680 they've done for years that are still focused on what they're 1440 01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,080 doing on linear and linear just doesn't work anymore. 1441 01:15:19,280 --> 01:15:21,800 And that's, that's the, it's like until they can break free 1442 01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:24,200 of those shackles, I don't know that they're able to actually 1443 01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:28,280 move in to be truly competitive. Like I actually would say at 1444 01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,760 this point, I think Fox is better positioned than ESPN to 1445 01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:35,400 do this because Fox was never so entirely married to like a 1446 01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:37,840 singular entity as a national sports channel. 1447 01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:43,960 So there's a lot there. What's your, what's your ideal 1448 01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:46,360 like? What do you want from ESPN? 1449 01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:50,320 Like I know we've talked about them focusing on more different 1450 01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:53,720 things in terms of like the bigger broadcast, the national 1451 01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,560 broadcast. But like, if you could pick 1452 01:15:56,560 --> 01:15:58,880 something that you think would actually work, what would you? 1453 01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,240 What would you ask for? Or what would you try to? 1454 01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:06,600 Produce well I this is where I I think if ESP NS going to be 1455 01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,320 successful like this is where they I, I don't know that they 1456 01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:12,000 can do everything that they've tried to do like they can't. 1457 01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:17,200 I think their biggest mistake right now is trying to make back 1458 01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:20,320 the money that they've lost through cable subscriptions 1459 01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:24,480 falling by jumping into the wagering market because they're 1460 01:16:24,480 --> 01:16:26,760 not going to be able to compete at a high enough level to 1461 01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:28,760 generate the revenue to to make up for it. 1462 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:32,160 So they got to figure out other things. 1463 01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:37,320 And I think that they are in a similar boat now with Fox and 1464 01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:42,640 with NBC and I guess CBS, like that's really your BIG4 in terms 1465 01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,800 of of the the players in this, since Turner's taking themselves 1466 01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,360 out of the equation to some degree. 1467 01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,000 You know the, the, the weird thing about all of this is the 1468 01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:58,240 sports that all these areas are covering are entirely reliant on 1469 01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:01,360 the Rev, the money that they're making off of the television 1470 01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:04,800 contracts. So that's where the salaries are 1471 01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:06,080 coming from. That's where everything's coming 1472 01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:09,240 from, yeah. So, you know, it's, it's funny 1473 01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:13,280 with this NBA thing with all these owners selling teams 1474 01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:16,560 lately and everybody's like, oh, it's something on the horizon. 1475 01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:18,840 And I think it's easy to say one of the leagues just in great 1476 01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:20,800 shape and they could go international and they could. 1477 01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:23,160 But the flip side is, well, maybe there is something wrong. 1478 01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:26,960 And I could see like a Mark Cuban or a bus family saying to 1479 01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:32,080 themselves, well, this might be as good as it ever gets in terms 1480 01:17:32,080 --> 01:17:37,240 of money, because medium money is entirely dependent on 1481 01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:40,600 centralized audience. And that's where all of this 1482 01:17:40,600 --> 01:17:43,880 money from ESPN came from. It's where the Fox money came 1483 01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:45,440 from. It's where CBS has all this 1484 01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:46,840 money. And there's only so many sports 1485 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:48,360 that you can spread that around on. 1486 01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,560 And at some point, unless you have another way of bringing 1487 01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:55,640 that money in, you're going to run into some brick walls. 1488 01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:58,400 And I, and I will say that I think we're at a point now with 1489 01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:03,000 say the NBA where or I think actually Major League Baseball 1490 01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,440 may be the one that is the, the big, the big next one to fall 1491 01:18:06,440 --> 01:18:08,800 because of, you know, they were the ones that really hit hardest 1492 01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:12,680 by Diamond Sports Group and, and all of these regionals 1493 01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:15,360 essentially not having a workable business model. 1494 01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:18,880 So do they start going direct to consumer? 1495 01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:22,440 If Major League Baseball can go direct to consumer and say, hey, 1496 01:18:22,440 --> 01:18:25,200 you know what? We know that you hate our 1497 01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,880 streaming stuff and we know you hate not being able to watch 1498 01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:29,840 your teams. What about everybody pays 1499 01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:33,440 $150.00 a year and you get all of the games? 1500 01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:37,120 Yeah, I mean, you're gonna make more direct money and then you 1501 01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:39,640 can sell ads. And you can league pass for 1502 01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:40,880 everything you're. Saying league pass for 1503 01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,320 everything and then you can still have Apple or whoever 1504 01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:46,320 doing specialty games because people have that subscription as 1505 01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:50,720 well and they'll pay for that, you know, so I do wonder with 1506 01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,680 ESPN, they just pointed up a huge amount of money for the 1507 01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:56,120 NBA. They've they spent a decent 1508 01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:58,360 amount of money on the NHL. They've got a couple of other 1509 01:18:58,360 --> 01:19:00,640 things. They've let some things go, but 1510 01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:04,520 what I would like to see them do is decide like, are we a live 1511 01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:06,880 sports carrier that covers sports? 1512 01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:10,440 Are we an opinion machine that's trying to generate like ad 1513 01:19:10,440 --> 01:19:12,480 revenue and, and audience that way? 1514 01:19:12,480 --> 01:19:16,880 Like what are what are we doing? And what I really want them to 1515 01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:19,400 do more than anything else is pick a lane and figure out what 1516 01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:21,600 that lane looks like. Instead of trying to straddle 1517 01:19:21,600 --> 01:19:24,720 everything all at once. And I, and I think that their 1518 01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:29,560 problem is ultimately they are an item on the Ledger sheet free 1519 01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:36,400 for Disney in a way that Fox Sports is not, for News Corp in 1520 01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:41,320 a way that NBC is not for Comcast or whatever, in a way 1521 01:19:41,320 --> 01:19:43,400 that CBS is not. I mean, well, that's, that's a 1522 01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:45,360 separate story. I guess at this point they might 1523 01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:48,760 end up being that. But but, you know, ESPN has some 1524 01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:53,080 very specific problems in that I think people don't realize how 1525 01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:58,440 critical the revenue from ESPN was to Disney specifically given 1526 01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:03,680 how low margin the theme park business is and how Disney's 1527 01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,360 other big revenue generator was what Greg? 1528 01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,040 Disney's the movies, the movie. Oh, the movie. 1529 01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:12,160 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which last? 1530 01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:14,280 One was not. In great shape, you know I. 1531 01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:19,960 Mean, I mean, yeah, I mean there's a that's, yeah, there's 1532 01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:23,480 a lot there. And as evidenced by how Elio 1533 01:20:23,480 --> 01:20:27,360 did, Pixar is really scraping the barrel like they all are. 1534 01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:29,280 I mean every. They've made the same movie for 1535 01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,160 20 years. Yeah, at a certain point, toys 1536 01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,400 can talk, you know, is not going to bring more people into like, 1537 01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:37,440 you know. I've seen that animation 8000 1538 01:20:37,440 --> 01:20:38,600 times. Yeah, no, I like. 1539 01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:40,520 It's it's all about Bluey now, apparently. 1540 01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:42,520 That's what I've heard. I mean, I'm not, I don't have 1541 01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:45,280 any kids, so I'm not really. Sure, I love Bluey Bluey's. 1542 01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:46,360 Amazing. Yeah. 1543 01:20:46,440 --> 01:20:47,800 I mean, how, how old are your kids now? 1544 01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,920 They're in college. I mean, what, where they at? 1545 01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:54,480 They're like 37. I've been almost 10 year old and 1546 01:20:54,480 --> 01:20:55,680 a 7 year old. What are they? 1547 01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:57,400 Are they? Do they care about Disney stuff? 1548 01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,960 You know what my kids do? They they stream Netflix and 1549 01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:04,840 they play video games. Actually, they're Co opting on 1550 01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:10,200 Stardew valley right now and they're so it's amazing and it's 1551 01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:12,320 it's it's informative because they're both Gen. alpha 1552 01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:16,280 obviously. And they will they have iPads. 1553 01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:18,000 I know people say you're a horrible parent. 1554 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:22,320 You let your kids have screens. My response is but they're they 1555 01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:32,400 they they watch like like tween shows OK in a in a in a in a 1556 01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:36,480 screen, like a picture in picture while playing games on 1557 01:21:36,480 --> 01:21:38,720 It's the weirdest. Thing no, I have, I have, I have 1558 01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,560 friends that do that. Now millennials are doing that, 1559 01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:42,800 I mean. So it's but you know, but 1560 01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:45,400 they're they're not really watching cartoons anymore like 1561 01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:47,360 they did for a long time. We watched Bluey. 1562 01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:50,720 We would watch what the other ones. 1563 01:21:50,880 --> 01:21:53,440 Bubble Guppies was a big one in the household. 1564 01:21:53,440 --> 01:21:54,440 I. Haven't watched that one. 1565 01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:58,720 The a lot of Muppet Babies like the new version of Muppet Babies 1566 01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:01,600 who has a really annoying new character compared to the old 1567 01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,520 one. I mean, there's a reason I mean, 1568 01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:08,000 this why Disney is doing these live action things, because 1569 01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:10,440 they're appealing to the millennial, the people that 1570 01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,200 watch these things in theaters or cared about them. 1571 01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:15,040 I. Mean is Disney still around 1572 01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:20,680 without Star Wars at this point? Marvel, I guess. 1573 01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:22,680 Maybe I right. Yeah, it's all. 1574 01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:24,960 It's all the big. It's the big blockbuster. 1575 01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:28,280 And it's all, and it's all these already prepackaged things. 1576 01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:30,520 And this is, I think, the problem to some degree. 1577 01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:32,840 It actually kind of explains NBA coverage on ESPN. 1578 01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:35,840 New plot lines. When we can run the same sequel 1579 01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:39,960 9 times, Lebron's gonna. Retire at some point like I, I. 1580 01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:42,440 Maybe he won't, you know, Maybe he won't. 1581 01:22:42,480 --> 01:22:44,840 It's a generational thing because 25 years ago we were 1582 01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:47,440 dealing with this with Jordan, right And there and there was 1583 01:22:47,440 --> 01:22:51,560 like that five year walk in the wilderness where it's like who's 1584 01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:55,400 going to take the because like it wasn't it was Kobe until the 1585 01:22:55,400 --> 01:22:59,280 Colorado thing and and. Then it was kind of Kobe again. 1586 01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,520 Right, right. You know, somehow that all got 1587 01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:03,200 forgotten. It just powered through. 1588 01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:05,720 But there's, but you, you know, to go back to your question 1589 01:23:05,720 --> 01:23:10,640 about what do I want from ESPNI, just, I don't see at some point, 1590 01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:13,640 I think the sports partners are like, what is exactly that we're 1591 01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,200 getting from ESPN? Like what are, what are we, 1592 01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,320 what, what's the purpose of this partnership? 1593 01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:23,200 Cause like historically, sports media has been a symbiotic 1594 01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:27,720 relationship where sports needed media to promote the games, 1595 01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:29,640 promote the players, promote the coaches. 1596 01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:32,000 Media needed sports to bring in audience. 1597 01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,440 Everybody was happy. But that was in an era when 1598 01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:40,000 sports teams couldn't make their own media, and now they can, 1599 01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:44,280 oftentimes at higher quality than what media itself is 1600 01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:47,600 creating on behalf of sports. I mean, there's more jobs 1601 01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:50,360 hiring. Like there's more, you know the 1602 01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:53,080 NBA is hiring more people than you know when you asked. 1603 01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,480 Me earlier what do what do my students want to do? 1604 01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,480 Like a lot of the people who 10 years ago would have been said, 1605 01:23:58,480 --> 01:23:59,760 I want to be a Sports Center anchor. 1606 01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:01,360 They're now like, I want to work for a team. 1607 01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:05,240 I want to be AI, want to be a reporter for a team, and I get 1608 01:24:05,240 --> 01:24:09,360 that because that seems to be where the stability is at this 1609 01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:12,480 point for a lot of people. Yeah, yeah. 1610 01:24:12,480 --> 01:24:15,680 I mean, every media conglomeration is going to let 1611 01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:19,120 you off at some point. You know, like I've made it six 1612 01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:24,040 years and I'm everyone. I mean, I mean, honestly, I'm 1613 01:24:24,040 --> 01:24:26,080 applauding myself every day. I don't know how I'm doing it. 1614 01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:28,720 I mean, everyone else has gone to law school where, you know, 1615 01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:32,400 they just, they're just, you know, finding jobs here and 1616 01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:34,040 there and they're making it work like it's. 1617 01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:37,400 Your, your, your generation has been really interesting to 1618 01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:40,920 watch. And you know, it's like, I mean, 1619 01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:42,680 my generation kind of went through this too, 'cause like I 1620 01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:46,360 was right at the end of the, the, the pre digital era and 1621 01:24:46,360 --> 01:24:49,440 most of the people that I went to school with are no longer in 1622 01:24:49,440 --> 01:24:52,280 it and haven't been for a while. A few hung on and, and had 1623 01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:55,600 really successful careers, but a bunch of people didn't. 1624 01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,320 And I think your generation kind of is in a different transition 1625 01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:00,880 point. And you know, it's just, it's 1626 01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:04,640 tough because it's there is money, but all the money is 1627 01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:08,080 hoarded at the very top. And increasingly independent 1628 01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:15,600 media, which ESPN is certainly just doesn't have the the 1629 01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:17,960 bandwidth to do the things they need to do. 1630 01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:21,360 They don't have the money to throw around and they're not 1631 01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:25,160 going to take risks. And unfortunately being risk 1632 01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:29,640 averse in media when the teams themselves can be more like 1633 01:25:29,640 --> 01:25:33,160 risk, risk fillic or whatever the you know that they can be 1634 01:25:33,160 --> 01:25:36,520 more adept at handling risk and dealing with. 1635 01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:42,640 It puts the the big media companies in a very difficult 1636 01:25:42,640 --> 01:25:45,760 position and it puts the people working in the industries in 1637 01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:50,440 even worse positions because you end up doing the same things 1638 01:25:50,440 --> 01:25:53,000 over and over again, which gets very soul draining. 1639 01:25:53,440 --> 01:25:56,320 And your job is constantly in jeopardy because all it takes is 1640 01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,720 one person saying, well, we don't need that person anymore. 1641 01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:00,920 And and then what do you do at that point? 1642 01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:03,200 You have to go to something else and you're probably never coming 1643 01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:05,920 back. And there's 100 people ready to 1644 01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:08,320 take your job too. Like you, you get. 1645 01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,480 People will pay, they will have to pay less, you know? 1646 01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:13,280 And that's what they're, I mean, that's what they're all doing is 1647 01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:17,320 why would we pay someone 150,000 when we can pay them 72,000 or 1648 01:26:17,320 --> 01:26:19,560 whatever and let them fend for themselves? 1649 01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:22,560 It's funny you had a question in the in the list like was Simmons 1650 01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:24,920 right about ESPN never backing podcasts? 1651 01:26:24,920 --> 01:26:30,200 And he's right. First of all like name a non 1652 01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:34,760 show based podcast that's must listen off of ESPN. 1653 01:26:36,280 --> 01:26:38,200 A non. I mean, I don't listen to any of 1654 01:26:38,240 --> 01:26:39,880 them. Yeah, but right, you know what I 1655 01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:41,240 mean. I I listened to the low post 1656 01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:43,960 when it was on that was about it. 1657 01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:46,640 You know, I would listen to the Simmons podcast and the 1658 01:26:46,640 --> 01:26:48,920 Grantland based podcast. Those were fun and those those 1659 01:26:48,920 --> 01:26:53,120 had like some some big good cultural elements to them in a 1660 01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:56,400 lot of cases. But the you know, like I try, 1661 01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:58,720 I'll try listening to like Windhorse podcast. 1662 01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:03,760 And as much as I I do enjoy Windhorse reporting that format, 1663 01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:06,920 it doesn't work. It's really like an in between 1664 01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:10,760 TV and podcast where it still feels like they're trying to hit 1665 01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:13,720 the segments right and not go on tangents right? 1666 01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:15,920 Where it's like when I'm listening to a podcast, I don't 1667 01:27:15,920 --> 01:27:18,040 care if it's two hours, if it's two guys that I like. 1668 01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,360 So it's usually guys just in general when it's a podcast. 1669 01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:25,880 I mean, as evidenced by what we're doing right now, but just 1670 01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:29,720 going on like. I, I earlier today recorded and 1671 01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:33,480 produced a 35 minute podcast that just had two women talking. 1672 01:27:33,480 --> 01:27:35,360 So I, you know what? I'm doing my part. 1673 01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:37,120 Greg, what are you doing? No, I've done. 1674 01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:38,960 I'll, I'll listen to it when it comes out. 1675 01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,160 You know, women, women could do anything now. 1676 01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:44,200 So. They could always do anything 1677 01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:49,280 but yeah, but the point, the point is my my feeling on that 1678 01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:53,080 comment from Simmons. He's right, but maybe not in the 1679 01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:59,480 way he intended podcasting was. That was the big leap for a lot 1680 01:27:59,480 --> 01:28:04,200 of sports media in terms of like podcasts done the way that 1681 01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:07,400 podcasts should be done, which, as you described, a free flowing 1682 01:28:07,960 --> 01:28:10,960 discussion based tangential in a lot of ways. 1683 01:28:11,880 --> 01:28:15,200 Those are the things that have demonstrated staying power. 1684 01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:18,240 And it's it's not just sports, you know, it's like, you know, 1685 01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:23,240 the you know, WTF or, or Rogan, any of these podcasts that have 1686 01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:26,840 called or daddy these huge podcasts across, you know, you 1687 01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:29,720 know, multiple demographics, multiple geographical areas. 1688 01:28:30,440 --> 01:28:36,320 They generally all have a quasi formatless approach that works 1689 01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:38,840 really well and is adaptable to the moment. 1690 01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:43,040 And I I would argue that what you end up with happening with 1691 01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:51,120 ESPN is that they are so in like handcuffed to format has to be 1692 01:28:51,120 --> 01:28:54,680 this has to be that they let some things shoot up, but then 1693 01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:56,120 they were always tied to the individual. 1694 01:28:56,120 --> 01:29:00,040 When the individual left, it was gone and they didn't want to 1695 01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:01,840 replicate that. They end up going in a different 1696 01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:04,200 direction. And you know, what always 1697 01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:09,800 bothered me is like, I hate overproduced podcasts. 1698 01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:12,480 Oh, you know, like exactly the same When they launched ESPN 1699 01:29:12,480 --> 01:29:13,840 Daily, I was like, oh, this would be interesting. 1700 01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:16,200 And I listened to like 2 episodes of it was like, no, not 1701 01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:18,680 interesting at all. Not, not a bit because of the 1702 01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:21,440 way it was produced. Yeah, it was, you know, and I 1703 01:29:21,440 --> 01:29:25,200 mean, it's obviously a take off of the Daily, another like 1704 01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:27,440 horrifically overproduced podcast. 1705 01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:30,440 I mean, we had our own problems. I mean, this is a specific 1706 01:29:30,440 --> 01:29:33,000 example with Golf Digest where we're, we started this local 1707 01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:35,400 knowledge podcast where we're supposed to be these like 30 1708 01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:38,280 minute stories, kind of like the daily, you know, every every 1709 01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:40,800 week, every two weeks. And at the beginning it was so 1710 01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:45,200 produced and at a certain point it was like it felt exhausting 1711 01:29:45,640 --> 01:29:49,240 to make it and to listen to it. And now it's more of just, I 1712 01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:52,920 mean, it's Shane Ryan, who, you know, just basically going. 1713 01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:57,000 My buddy Shane Ryan has been a really interesting evening with 1714 01:29:57,000 --> 01:29:58,800 him in Chapel Hill a decade ago so. 1715 01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:01,080 Who's the best? I mean he's great and he just 1716 01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:05,440 just starts talking for like 3540 minutes and we'll do like a 1717 01:30:05,440 --> 01:30:07,800 few small things here and there. We'll add some music, we'll add 1718 01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:10,240 some clips or whatever. But for the most part it's just 1719 01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:13,240 him doing Hardcore History or you know, one of those types of 1720 01:30:13,240 --> 01:30:15,520 podcasts. And it's so much better now 1721 01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:19,720 'cause it's less, it's just let like and also like no one 1722 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:21,440 listens to a podcast 40 minutes straight. 1723 01:30:21,440 --> 01:30:25,640 I mean, I guess you know, I mean I do, but like not everyone. 1724 01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:29,560 And sometimes you listen for 10 minutes here, but you get lost 1725 01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:33,000 if you don't do that. Like I'm, I don't know why I'm 1726 01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:34,280 saying that. I've listened to podcasts for 1727 01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:37,960 like 3 hours straight. But sometimes you, and if you're 1728 01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:41,120 trying to get back into like this pre produced packaged 1729 01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:43,760 podcast, it's, it's, it's almost impossible. 1730 01:30:43,760 --> 01:30:47,160 It's like trying to get back into ATV show 2 weeks later and 1731 01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:49,560 you're like, I don't know what. I don't remember what happened 1732 01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:52,400 there 15 minutes ago. So maybe in this elongated 1733 01:30:52,400 --> 01:30:54,560 format, you've actually drawn out what I really want out of 1734 01:30:54,560 --> 01:31:01,560 ESPN, which is take the suit off like get casual again, like get, 1735 01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:03,680 get, get casual with your formatting. 1736 01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:07,080 I mean, this is what I worry about with inside the NBA, You 1737 01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:09,040 know, and I think this was one of the questions you asked was 1738 01:31:09,040 --> 01:31:11,200 like, is ESPN going to ruin Inside the NBA? 1739 01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:13,000 And the answer is absolutely yes. 1740 01:31:13,240 --> 01:31:16,440 Because what has been the poison for ESP along the other things 1741 01:31:16,440 --> 01:31:18,280 that we've talked about? But what has been the poison for 1742 01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:22,200 ESPN has been trying to cram things into boxes that they 1743 01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:26,440 don't fit into. And if there's one thing from 1744 01:31:26,440 --> 01:31:31,040 inside the NBA that makes it a great show, it is that it is 1745 01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:37,160 essentially like, it's like the Tom Snyder version of a late 1746 01:31:37,160 --> 01:31:40,280 night talk show where it's just, we're going to sit here and talk 1747 01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:43,880 and it might not go anywhere or it might be the most hilarious 1748 01:31:43,880 --> 01:31:46,240 thing you've ever heard. It's the antithesis of like the 1749 01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:50,000 Jimmy Fallon, Jay Leno approach. Well, did you watch This is 1750 01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:51,600 Randa? Did you watch John Mulaney's 1751 01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:54,360 talk show on Netflix? No, I haven't. 1752 01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:59,600 He did these live hour shows for like 12 weeks straight and it 1753 01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:02,800 was really just like, you could tell they were just winging it. 1754 01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:07,160 You could tell they were like he was talking to guests and as 1755 01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:09,680 he's asking them questions, he's figuring it out on the fly. 1756 01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:12,360 They're going random. Like that's the type of thing 1757 01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:14,800 that I enjoy more. I mean, obviously I'm a fan of 1758 01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:19,240 Mullaney, but even Seth Meyers, who I feel like he's like he, 1759 01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:20,720 he's literally taking the suit off. 1760 01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:22,440 Like he had a suit on, took it off. 1761 01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:24,320 Now he's just wearing like a, a regular jacket. 1762 01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,600 He'll talk to a guest like James Acaster for just 8 minutes about 1763 01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:29,520 whatever. Instead of these like pre 1764 01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:34,640 planned segments about like them playing like fake strip poker 1765 01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:36,560 or, you know, whatever Jimmy Fallon's doing nowadays. 1766 01:32:39,160 --> 01:32:42,440 I just, there's, I feel like there's a middle ground between 1767 01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:47,520 podcasts, which are, you know, two hours of nonsense in a good 1768 01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:54,120 way versus like the first take style rapid segments about 1769 01:32:54,280 --> 01:32:57,280 LeBron, about I just thought of Tim Tebow for some reason. 1770 01:32:57,280 --> 01:32:59,240 But that's what it that's what it was for so long. 1771 01:32:59,440 --> 01:33:01,400 They're just talking about Tebow for every 10 minutes. 1772 01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:06,640 And there's got to be some, some way to like, you know, bridge 1773 01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:09,760 the gap. There is, but I don't think that 1774 01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:11,400 these networks are willing to do it. 1775 01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:15,400 And it's it's ironic and I feel I don't feel bad for the NBA. 1776 01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:19,120 They took the money, but the fact that they've they they've 1777 01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:21,520 ditched Turner. I mean, Turner kind of ditched 1778 01:33:21,520 --> 01:33:24,880 them, but they've decided to take up with NBC, who might be 1779 01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:29,000 the only network worse than ESPN at trying to jam everything into 1780 01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:32,400 a box. Like when I think of shows that 1781 01:33:33,200 --> 01:33:36,800 have gone completely off the rails but are still being done 1782 01:33:36,880 --> 01:33:40,120 in like a worse and worse style every year, it is the Sunday 1783 01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:43,000 Night Football show, not the broadcast. 1784 01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:43,360 Yeah. Yeah. 1785 01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:47,080 I mean, I think Tariko, I I'll never look at Tariko as a play 1786 01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:48,840 by play guy, but I think he's fine. 1787 01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:52,480 And I still think Collinsworth is really good as a color guy, 1788 01:33:52,480 --> 01:33:56,360 even if he's just got a shtick that will naturally just get old 1789 01:33:56,360 --> 01:33:57,920 over time. When you listen to anybody for 1790 01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:01,640 20 years, it'll get old. I don't blame him for that, but 1791 01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:05,960 their studio show might. I think it still holds the 1792 01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:10,120 record for most unnecessary regular people on a show, and 1793 01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:11,840 it's a great example of everything we just complained 1794 01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:14,040 about with ESPN. It's like no one asked for Chris 1795 01:34:14,040 --> 01:34:17,080 Sims be an expert. No, no one said. 1796 01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:19,640 I really wish I knew what Chris Sims was talking about with this 1797 01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:23,560 game. Like we don't need him and 1798 01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:28,360 Rodney Harrison and Tony Dungy and I've lost track. 1799 01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:31,400 There's like 9 other people. No, I mean those those shows 1800 01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:33,680 are. They're just unwatchable. 1801 01:34:33,680 --> 01:34:36,960 They're unwatchable. They're SNL sketches that just 1802 01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:39,120 don't end. I mean, I guess they're just SNL 1803 01:34:39,120 --> 01:34:43,160 sketches at this point, but they're, they're nothing. 1804 01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:45,320 And at a certain point you don't it's, I mean, it's like we're 1805 01:34:45,320 --> 01:34:48,920 saying with ESPN where it's like you get these 32nd segments and 1806 01:34:48,920 --> 01:34:51,400 you get each person talking because everyone has to talk the 1807 01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:54,600 same amount of time for, you know, 45 seconds. 1808 01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:56,560 Nothing happens. And then you go to commercial 1809 01:34:56,560 --> 01:34:58,960 and you're like, what, what did we do any of that for? 1810 01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:02,960 We could have just done 4 minutes of one guy giving a 1811 01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,920 take, giving one actual opinion. And I think that's, it's some of 1812 01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:07,800 the part of this is an executive issue. 1813 01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:10,640 And I think it's ESPN has the same problem that NBC does. 1814 01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:13,880 We paid a lot. Fox is not exempt from this. 1815 01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:16,720 We don't need 6 people on the deck. 1816 01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:17,840 We gave them the money. We. 1817 01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:21,440 We gave them. We spend a lot of money on 1818 01:35:21,440 --> 01:35:23,360 Gronk. We got to have Gronk on this 1819 01:35:23,360 --> 01:35:28,080 show with Michael Strahan and Howie Long and Terry Bradshaw 1820 01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:32,400 and whoever the other person is and Kurt manif. 1821 01:35:32,480 --> 01:35:36,520 It's like, no, like just put three people on the desk and 1822 01:35:36,520 --> 01:35:38,720 have them talk, or put two people on the desk and have 1823 01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:40,480 them. Throw Pat McAfee in there, you 1824 01:35:40,480 --> 01:35:42,120 know, let's put him on one of those shows. 1825 01:35:42,120 --> 01:35:43,640 Too, the McAfee thing is fascinating. 1826 01:35:43,640 --> 01:35:46,840 I didn't want to touch on that. Now that we're now we're hour 3 1827 01:35:46,840 --> 01:35:49,760 almost not really. We're we're we're 96 minutes 1828 01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:51,280 we're. Gonna cut this down into like 20 1829 01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:54,160 minutes right the. Whole thing I'm not this is. 1830 01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:56,040 No, this is it. I I'll listen to. 1831 01:35:56,160 --> 01:35:59,160 It people wanted summer content, they've gotten summer content, 1832 01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:00,520 OK. Listen to this at the pool. 1833 01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:03,160 We're gonna drop this that probably the day or two before 1834 01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:07,000 the 4th of July, you're gonna go walk the dog on the 4th of July. 1835 01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:08,680 You're gonna drive around with the family a little bit. 1836 01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:11,160 You're gonna listen to this. I'm so sorry to everyone out 1837 01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:13,400 there. Yeah, this is what better way to 1838 01:36:13,400 --> 01:36:16,640 celebrate our country's independence than nearly two 1839 01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:19,040 hours of this, anyway? It's better than whatever else. 1840 01:36:19,400 --> 01:36:22,400 America, what is your opinion of the McAfee thing? 1841 01:36:23,040 --> 01:36:26,640 Just in general with the ESPN aspects of the, I mean, the the 1842 01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:31,160 streaming show, look, whatever you think about the content, I 1843 01:36:31,160 --> 01:36:35,200 think you have to tip your hat to McAfee from a a like a, an 1844 01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:39,160 organizational perspective. The popularity that show is 1845 01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:41,960 garnered over the course of a relatively short period of time. 1846 01:36:42,440 --> 01:36:45,400 It actually it's kind of the other side of the podcast coin 1847 01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:48,320 that I was mentioning earlier, where it's like the fact that 1848 01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:51,520 that format works when everything about broadcast 1849 01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:54,400 television said that format shouldn't work is really 1850 01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:58,440 remarkable. But anyway, go ahead I. 1851 01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:01,880 Don't, it's, I'm speechless. I don't, I don't know, I don't 1852 01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:04,920 get it. I don't, I've, I can't say I've 1853 01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:08,160 watched a lot of it. I've tried it because it's on 1854 01:37:08,480 --> 01:37:11,080 and I like it'll be on at the gym or it'll be on like in the 1855 01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:16,040 office and I'll watch like 3 minutes of it and it just, it 1856 01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:17,720 doesn't make any sense. I like, I don't know if I'm 1857 01:37:17,720 --> 01:37:20,360 missing something. He's never really made sense to 1858 01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:21,720 me. Even when he was at Barstool. 1859 01:37:21,720 --> 01:37:25,080 What was that, 10, 12 years? I mean, he was there for like 30 1860 01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:25,480 days. I've. 1861 01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:26,800 Lost. Yeah, I've lost track of when he 1862 01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:28,560 was. Barstool Indianapolis when that 1863 01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:34,000 happened, but I just I truly don't get it at all. 1864 01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:37,360 Like it's a real like. And you're kind of the target 1865 01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:41,560 demographic for him, like I. I guess, but he's not not 1866 01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:44,240 barstool like. No, it's like it's, it's 1867 01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:47,160 essentially like it's, it's like a, it's like a white labeled 1868 01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:49,200 barstool. You know, I mean, I listened to 1869 01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:52,680 part of my take when it started. I thought it was very fun and at 1870 01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:55,760 a certain point I got it, you know, I was like at a certain 1871 01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:59,080 point I can hear what was there Hank or whatever, like them 1872 01:37:59,080 --> 01:38:02,520 making fun of him. I can send APFT do his like, you 1873 01:38:02,520 --> 01:38:06,720 know, weird. Like I I just like it feels so 1874 01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:08,800 long ago at this point and I just like couldn't do it at a 1875 01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:12,360 certain point. And this feels like the the like 1876 01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:16,640 high def version or the high res version of that where I mean 1877 01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:17,760 it's the same. Honestly it's the same thing 1878 01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:22,080 with Lebatard show where it's just, you know, one guy throwing 1879 01:38:22,080 --> 01:38:25,360 to like 8 different people, except this one has Aaron 1880 01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:27,080 Rodgers, you know, doing vaccine talk. 1881 01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:29,600 So that's. Well, it's funny. 1882 01:38:29,600 --> 01:38:33,360 Levatard is interesting because I I lived in Miami, I was AI was 1883 01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:37,000 a professor down there for a couple of years when he just had 1884 01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:41,400 a show on what was it sports, sports plus 790 or whatever. 1885 01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:45,280 It was the ticket down there and it was it was funny drivetime 1886 01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:49,920 talk radio, all of the the you know, Mike Ryan was there and 1887 01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:53,760 Stu Gotts was was the Co host and you know, they had Roy and 1888 01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:56,240 they had like, you know, these a lot of the the pieces that 1889 01:38:56,240 --> 01:39:00,440 became the what now we know is the Levitard show were there it 1890 01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:04,000 but it was segmented and and I almost feel like this is where 1891 01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:06,440 the segmenting can help occasionally with this type of 1892 01:39:06,440 --> 01:39:08,000 programming. I know I just complained about 1893 01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:11,600 segmenting, but it's not it it it works in certain ways. 1894 01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:13,160 The McAfee thing. I just. 1895 01:39:13,160 --> 01:39:16,200 It is weird to me because. Like do you think the McAfee 1896 01:39:16,200 --> 01:39:18,160 thing works? I mean it is. 1897 01:39:18,320 --> 01:39:21,200 I mean, I guess it is working. Do you watch it? 1898 01:39:21,200 --> 01:39:25,800 Do you ever enjoy it? I think I I think if no, I 1899 01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:26,720 don't. I don't. 1900 01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:30,640 I I watch it, I don't enjoy it. I don't watch that much because 1901 01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:33,960 I don't enjoy it. I don't but but I also 1902 01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:37,520 acknowledge it's not for me so I'm not like this sucks. 1903 01:39:37,960 --> 01:39:40,880 That's kind of how I feel where it's not for me, but then. 1904 01:39:41,280 --> 01:39:43,640 But then who's it for? I guess becomes the question 1905 01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:45,600 mark. And then the things that do pop 1906 01:39:45,600 --> 01:39:49,720 up when I do see it on social media or I see someone send, you 1907 01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:52,360 know, someone send a clip or whatever it is that that 1908 01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:56,240 frustrates me 'cause I'm like, this is going the wrong way in 1909 01:39:56,240 --> 01:39:57,840 terms of what I want from sports coverage. 1910 01:39:58,120 --> 01:39:59,760 Yeah. I mean, the, the, if you look at 1911 01:39:59,760 --> 01:40:03,880 the, the, the demographics of the show, it's, it's one of 1912 01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:06,720 those, I mean, it clearly has appeal in that. 1913 01:40:07,240 --> 01:40:11,920 You know, 82% of the viewership is males, 18 to 44. 1914 01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:17,320 And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's got female viewers. 1915 01:40:17,320 --> 01:40:21,240 It's not like it's exclusively male, but it's, it's one of 1916 01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:26,080 those situations where they're, they're clearly grasp, like 1917 01:40:26,080 --> 01:40:29,360 they've grasped something that others could not. 1918 01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:35,160 When they launched across ESPN in 2023, they had 242 million 1919 01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:38,360 views in the first month, which is an insane amount of views. 1920 01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:43,280 But I, I just think to some degree it's, it's a show that, 1921 01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:49,080 you know, they're able to garner audience because there's a 1922 01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:52,320 shtick and the shtick vibes with people in the same way that 1923 01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:54,680 Barstool does. By shtick do you just mean like 1924 01:40:54,840 --> 01:40:58,000 Mcafee's personnel? Like whatever he is. 1925 01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:00,120 Shtick. I don't mean shtick to be a bad 1926 01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:05,080 thing, but it's, and this is I, I think to some degree it's like 1927 01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:09,800 it works in a way that the segmented stuff on and the NBA 1928 01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:14,800 coverage for ESPN doesn't because it in that environment 1929 01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:20,040 feels more organic in nature. And it, it may not be your cup 1930 01:41:20,040 --> 01:41:23,880 of tea, but it definitely works within that the confines of of 1931 01:41:23,880 --> 01:41:26,840 what they're doing. So that's where again, I'm like, 1932 01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:30,960 I'm not the type of person to say this just sucks and I won't 1933 01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:32,920 watch it. I won't watch it, but I'm not 1934 01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:36,320 going to just say it sucks. It's just like, I know this 1935 01:41:36,320 --> 01:41:40,280 doesn't really hit me because I, again, I prefer a different type 1936 01:41:40,280 --> 01:41:42,320 of discussion. I prefer a different type of of 1937 01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:46,400 approach, but I don't think you can build a network around it. 1938 01:41:46,400 --> 01:41:48,880 And I guess that's where ESPN and and again, this kind of goes 1939 01:41:48,880 --> 01:41:51,120 back to the astroturfing thing I was talking about earlier. 1940 01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:57,480 They they bring this show on and, you know, they try to 1941 01:41:57,480 --> 01:42:00,840 change it to the point that McAfee goes nuclear on Norby 1942 01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:04,120 Williamson and gets him fired, which is like, whoa, like, but 1943 01:42:04,520 --> 01:42:07,120 but should they have done that? Because I mean, maybe they 1944 01:42:07,120 --> 01:42:10,680 should have, but the idea was we're going to change our 1945 01:42:10,680 --> 01:42:12,920 approach entirely, but only in this case. 1946 01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:15,520 And it's like, well, if you're going to do that, why not blow 1947 01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:18,280 the lid off of everything? Like, why not try a bunch of 1948 01:42:18,280 --> 01:42:19,720 different things? And that, I guess that's what 1949 01:42:19,720 --> 01:42:21,720 irritates me. They drop him in on college game 1950 01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:26,000 day and it kind of works, but it completely changes the tenor of 1951 01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:29,640 the show. And now they've, you know, 1952 01:42:29,640 --> 01:42:33,160 they've taken what was a good back and forth talk with some 1953 01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:37,280 mildly interesting people. But it's it's changed the tenor 1954 01:42:37,280 --> 01:42:40,160 of it so much that Kirk Herbstreit has like literally 1955 01:42:40,160 --> 01:42:44,160 turned himself into a national heel when it comes to college 1956 01:42:44,160 --> 01:42:46,400 football coverage. But game day is still getting 1957 01:42:46,440 --> 01:42:47,960 views like that's the thing, like it's. 1958 01:42:47,960 --> 01:42:50,800 Well, but my point is did they need to they don't think they 1959 01:42:50,800 --> 01:42:53,880 needed to drop McAfee into that environment to get views. 1960 01:42:53,920 --> 01:42:57,960 I think that college game, it's like college football exists 1961 01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:01,800 unto itself and ESPN has tried to stake that out as their own. 1962 01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:03,640 But I think it's a college football thing. 1963 01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:04,960 I don't think it's a McAfee thing. 1964 01:43:05,160 --> 01:43:08,840 Like the the the college football video game comes back 1965 01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:13,320 last year and becomes the top selling sports video game of all 1966 01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,600 time. This was a a property that 1967 01:43:15,600 --> 01:43:18,960 didn't exist for 11 years. And now college basketball is 1968 01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:20,600 coming back. I mean, it's obviously not the 1969 01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:23,760 same thing, but they're. It won't turn the same numbers, 1970 01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:25,400 but yes the it'll. Do fine, it'll do. 1971 01:43:25,440 --> 01:43:26,840 OK, yeah, but. It's like they didn't need to go 1972 01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:30,200 down that road, I don't think. And that's that is I really I 1973 01:43:30,480 --> 01:43:33,720 that's where, again, I don't know that ESPN, the fact they 1974 01:43:33,720 --> 01:43:37,520 hit on McAfee is a success. It's almost like there's a 1975 01:43:37,520 --> 01:43:40,080 limited amount of credit I'm willing to give you for that. 1976 01:43:40,480 --> 01:43:43,840 Do you think it was Mcafee's idea to go on game day or they 1977 01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:47,720 threw him on there? I think it, I don't know, I 1978 01:43:47,720 --> 01:43:49,280 would. I would guess it was probably a 1979 01:43:49,280 --> 01:43:52,520 mutual thing because like, who wouldn't want? 1980 01:43:53,200 --> 01:43:57,200 I'm just curious if it was a McAfee, like, hey, I'm coming 1981 01:43:57,200 --> 01:44:01,520 there, throw me on the show. I think I could do something 1982 01:44:01,520 --> 01:44:06,880 with it, which he can and, you know, has done depending on who 1983 01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:08,720 you are. Or is it ESPN being like, we're 1984 01:44:08,720 --> 01:44:12,280 giving this guy all this money? Like we're this guy, we want him 1985 01:44:12,280 --> 01:44:13,800 to be one of the faces of the network. 1986 01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:18,600 I, I have to, I mean, there was that whole thing, you know, 1987 01:44:18,600 --> 01:44:22,480 where McAfee had considered leaving ESPN and forming his own 1988 01:44:22,480 --> 01:44:25,560 version of game day. You know, that got a lot of play 1989 01:44:25,760 --> 01:44:30,920 in a bunch of different spots. But you know, he, you know, I, I 1990 01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:38,120 back in, back in 2024 when he first joined, you know, there I, 1991 01:44:38,120 --> 01:44:40,040 I, I, I have to go back and listen to the podcast. 1992 01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:43,280 We did a podcast, I think it was the The Kelsey Brothers podcast 1993 01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:46,880 and he was like really like excited about being a part of 1994 01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:49,560 college game day, you know, and being a part of that 1995 01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:54,080 institution, you know. So I'm assuming it was at the 1996 01:44:54,080 --> 01:44:56,440 very least a mutual thing, if not more ESP. 1997 01:44:56,520 --> 01:44:58,840 NS idea, but I'm not totally sure that. 1998 01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:00,160 Makes sense to me. Yeah. 1999 01:45:00,320 --> 01:45:03,360 So I don't know, I, I guess it all kind of comes back to a 2000 01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:05,800 central point and we should probably wrap up now, but well. 2001 01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:09,680 I so I I was going to say this is I feel like how we end it 2002 01:45:10,800 --> 01:45:13,160 through the book. I was thinking, I always think I 2003 01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:15,040 read that book multiple times growing up. 2004 01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:21,560 The ESPN yeah. Where where does this, what is 2005 01:45:21,560 --> 01:45:25,200 this chapter? I mean, what, what is the the 2006 01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:27,560 start of it? And like, where does it, I mean, 2007 01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:29,000 where does it end? I mean, if you knew that you'd 2008 01:45:29,000 --> 01:45:33,000 be a billion dollar man, but where is it going you? 2009 01:45:33,400 --> 01:45:35,960 Know, you know, it's interesting because the book, the way it 2010 01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:40,640 lays out ESPN like the the the 1st, it's funny how much of A 2011 01:45:40,640 --> 01:45:45,520 linear upward trajectory ESPN follows from 1979, through all 2012 01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:49,280 the early struggles, through getting the cable carriage stuff 2013 01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:53,720 through getting the NFL contract, through their building 2014 01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:55,160 their relationships with the different leagues. 2015 01:45:55,160 --> 01:45:58,760 They don't really hit a roadblock of significant 2016 01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:01,480 proportions until the Shapiro era starts. 2017 01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:04,760 Yeah, there's like personal roadblocks because this guy did 2018 01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:06,400 this and, you know, had a problem, but like. 2019 01:46:06,640 --> 01:46:09,880 But really network, yeah, you know, you get you get to that 2020 01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:13,640 point in the late 90s, they have this crisis of identity. 2021 01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:18,400 And it's funny 'cause we talked about some of the shows PTI came 2022 01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:20,000 out of this, around the Horn came out of this. 2023 01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:22,960 But they also did like ESPN original entertainment movies. 2024 01:46:22,960 --> 01:46:24,160 You know, they're, they're, they're doing. 2025 01:46:24,160 --> 01:46:25,720 They did the season on the brink, which was. 2026 01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:29,720 Like what was the TV show they did that the first that made the 2027 01:46:29,720 --> 01:46:31,960 NFL furious. They had the playmakers. 2028 01:46:32,120 --> 01:46:32,960 Playmakers. That was that. 2029 01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:35,680 Yeah, Yeah, that. That show's 22 years old. 2030 01:46:35,680 --> 01:46:38,040 Go back and watch that at some point, folks, that's, that's a 2031 01:46:38,040 --> 01:46:41,240 fascinating look at an era and you'll you'll watch it and 2032 01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:43,480 you're like, what's the big deal? 2033 01:46:44,480 --> 01:46:46,680 But it but that was that was the good stuff. 2034 01:46:47,080 --> 01:46:49,520 And we forget the amount of of not good stuff. 2035 01:46:49,520 --> 01:46:52,960 It's like tilt. I don't remember tilt or. 2036 01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:55,040 Just the name of it. There was there was, there was 2037 01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:57,920 another one that like they did a movie on Dale Earnhardt. 2038 01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:02,200 And then 30 for 30, you know, like they they're. 40 for 30 was 2039 01:47:02,200 --> 01:47:04,400 them coming out of that. Yeah, yeah, it's like on the 2040 01:47:04,440 --> 01:47:07,680 other side. Sports century was that era and 2041 01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:10,840 you know the they they were trying things, but they clearly 2042 01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:13,000 didn't know what they wanted to be and they started to 2043 01:47:13,000 --> 01:47:15,520 fundamentally change the format of SportsCenter and all that. 2044 01:47:15,760 --> 01:47:18,760 Now they survived that and I would you know would argue that 2045 01:47:18,760 --> 01:47:24,360 a second golden age there from like O3O4 through about 14. 2046 01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:29,520 I just think that when the money sources dried up, they gradually 2047 01:47:29,520 --> 01:47:35,200 ran out of the they they lost the confidence that they had to 2048 01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:39,200 be the tastemaker, and they started following trends that 2049 01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:42,400 they didn't really understand from a programming perspective. 2050 01:47:42,640 --> 01:47:47,880 That led them down a pathway to where they were still handcuffed 2051 01:47:48,400 --> 01:47:51,520 by the procedures that they had built up over time internally. 2052 01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:55,000 That said, you have to do it this way while trying things 2053 01:47:55,000 --> 01:47:57,760 that didn't work in those formats and then discarding them 2054 01:47:57,760 --> 01:48:00,320 quickly when they didn't work immediately because they needed 2055 01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:04,480 to have successes to make up for what at the time look like a 2056 01:48:04,480 --> 01:48:07,520 correctable lessening of audience. 2057 01:48:07,520 --> 01:48:10,040 And rapidly, I think they figured out, well, we actually 2058 01:48:10,040 --> 01:48:12,320 can't do anything about this. People aren't going to just stop 2059 01:48:12,320 --> 01:48:16,800 cutting cable because we have a new show or a new approach to 2060 01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:19,880 things. And so I think this chapter, 2061 01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:23,280 it's kind of like that crisis of conscience chapter from that 2062 01:48:23,280 --> 01:48:25,600 period. This particular chapter starts 2063 01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:29,240 with Jimmy Potaro though, and this idea that we are going to 2064 01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:34,360 subjugate our editorial approach to the leagues because our 2065 01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:37,200 partnerships with the leagues are the most important thing, 2066 01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:41,280 both because we need access, we need the NFL to give us 2067 01:48:41,280 --> 01:48:45,320 highlights and to be a partner. But now increasingly we need the 2068 01:48:45,320 --> 01:48:47,520 partnership from a wagering perspective. 2069 01:48:48,480 --> 01:48:52,400 And when you add in that they're trying to still do things in a 2070 01:48:52,400 --> 01:48:54,920 very linear format and that they don't really know how to promote 2071 01:48:54,920 --> 01:48:57,120 their non linear stuff particularly well. 2072 01:48:57,600 --> 01:48:59,680 I just think they're kind of they're trying to do too many 2073 01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:01,480 things in too many different venues. 2074 01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:05,560 They can't leave behind the past and they're largely being driven 2075 01:49:05,560 --> 01:49:07,840 by profit motive. And that's a terrible place to 2076 01:49:07,840 --> 01:49:11,200 be with with any media entity. I don't care if it's ESPN or 2077 01:49:11,240 --> 01:49:13,240 anybody else. As we've seen time and time 2078 01:49:13,240 --> 01:49:16,920 again, you don't get where you need to get to and you end up 2079 01:49:16,920 --> 01:49:19,960 treading water at best when you go that route. 2080 01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:24,680 I'd read that book. I'd read that next chapter. 2081 01:49:25,000 --> 01:49:27,840 I'll get right on that. Yeah, you and you with Jim 2082 01:49:27,840 --> 01:49:29,640 Miller, right? Yeah, Jimmy Miller and me. 2083 01:49:29,640 --> 01:49:31,600 Yeah, we're gonna we're what's working on that together. 2084 01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:32,680 Anything lately? I haven't. 2085 01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:34,960 I've lost track of him. He was on every podcast it felt 2086 01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:37,280 like for five years. He had his own podcast too for a 2087 01:49:37,280 --> 01:49:40,360 second. Yeah, he's, I mean, he, I know 2088 01:49:40,360 --> 01:49:43,240 him from, he used to pop up on Simmons podcast, just breakdown 2089 01:49:43,320 --> 01:49:46,680 SNL on ESPN and that was like the entire reason he showed up. 2090 01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:49,560 But another institution that nobody cares about at this 2091 01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:52,560 point. Yeah, it's, it's a bummer. 2092 01:49:52,720 --> 01:49:55,720 I mean, it's, it took two hours to say that, but I mean, it's 2093 01:49:55,720 --> 01:50:01,520 just, you know, it's, it's, it's not, it's not for me anymore. 2094 01:50:01,600 --> 01:50:03,360 I guess that's where it where it comes down to. 2095 01:50:03,480 --> 01:50:06,960 I think for the vast majority of people it it that really hits a 2096 01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:09,280 nail on head. It is just another place that 2097 01:50:09,280 --> 01:50:11,720 has sports on. And sometimes there's good stuff 2098 01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:15,440 and a lot of times there isn't. And that's just what it is, I 2099 01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:17,960 mean. But, but it really goes back to 2100 01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:21,560 me to like a, a, a thing we talked about, which you know, of 2101 01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:26,240 the 9000 things we've covered on this show, which is that so much 2102 01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:29,400 of the magic of ESPN was tied up in the magic of television and 2103 01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:31,000 television is not magical anymore. 2104 01:50:31,240 --> 01:50:35,760 Like, like, I mean, television is a it's a vessel for content 2105 01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:39,160 that lives somewhere else. What was the like more people 2106 01:50:39,160 --> 01:50:40,760 watch YouTube than anything else at this point. 2107 01:50:40,800 --> 01:50:43,280 Yeah, is I mean, I mean, Netflix is number 2. 2108 01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:45,560 I mean T VS just gonna keep dropping there's. 2109 01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:49,200 Except for live sports, there's no reason to have TV anymore. 2110 01:50:49,480 --> 01:50:52,240 Right. I mean, you need a television 2111 01:50:52,320 --> 01:50:55,360 because it has apps on it that you watch. 2112 01:50:55,800 --> 01:50:59,840 But you know, the YouTube TV app on my television is just one of 2113 01:50:59,840 --> 01:51:03,040 the apps on there. It's it's not the default is not 2114 01:51:03,040 --> 01:51:06,240 let's see what's on TV. Yeah, default is let's figure 2115 01:51:06,240 --> 01:51:08,320 out what to watch. And then you got to go through 2116 01:51:08,320 --> 01:51:09,680 nine different options to get there. 2117 01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:14,240 So anyway, well, fun times. Did we? 2118 01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:16,040 Did we did we fix it? Do we? 2119 01:51:16,080 --> 01:51:18,680 Do we fixed? It we fixed it I well though the 2120 01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:22,920 check is in the mail I think for the consultancy but no fun 2121 01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:25,800 conversation and enjoyed it. Thank you so much. 2122 01:51:26,200 --> 01:51:28,760 Yeah, I. Thanks for having me on I'm it's 2123 01:51:28,960 --> 01:51:32,120 it's been a a few hours, but I I definitely got something out of 2124 01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:35,440 this, I think. It felt cathartic from a sports 2125 01:51:35,440 --> 01:51:39,280 fandom perspective. You know, even more so than been 2126 01:51:39,280 --> 01:51:41,880 diagnosing ESP NS problems, I do think there's a lot of 2127 01:51:41,880 --> 01:51:45,800 frustration among sports fans 'cause like sports fandom had a 2128 01:51:45,800 --> 01:51:50,280 moment there for about 25 years where it felt like there was a 2129 01:51:50,280 --> 01:51:52,320 cool place to go. That was the place to go for 2130 01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:55,280 sports, and sports has never been bigger. 2131 01:51:55,720 --> 01:51:59,520 But the there's no, there's not really a central locus of sports 2132 01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:01,640 fandom anywhere. But I think you could say the 2133 01:52:01,640 --> 01:52:04,920 same thing about any aspect of culture or politics at this 2134 01:52:04,920 --> 01:52:06,440 point. There's not a central point to 2135 01:52:06,440 --> 01:52:10,960 go which really to some degree illustrates some larger societal 2136 01:52:10,960 --> 01:52:13,520 issues that we've got. And it was cool like that was I 2137 01:52:13,520 --> 01:52:16,480 I know, like we've talked around it, but it was, you know, you 2138 01:52:16,480 --> 01:52:19,320 wanted you wanted to have the shirt that said ESPN on it. 2139 01:52:19,600 --> 01:52:21,960 You wanted to do all these things you wanted to. 2140 01:52:22,280 --> 01:52:24,760 And now it would just be like, why do you have that? 2141 01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:26,960 Did did they give it to you? You know, like what what's the 2142 01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:29,280 point of this? There's there's so many or you'd 2143 01:52:29,280 --> 01:52:32,640 have a Pat McAfee shirt, which I'm probably not going to get 2144 01:52:32,640 --> 01:52:34,400 anytime soon. It's not, not not high. 2145 01:52:34,400 --> 01:52:36,120 Which is just a a black tank top I guess. 2146 01:52:36,360 --> 01:52:37,240 Yeah, they're right. Yeah. 2147 01:52:37,320 --> 01:52:40,200 I I, I mean, I'm assuming. I'm sorry, I'm actually shocked 2148 01:52:40,200 --> 01:52:43,000 He doesn't have like an Amazon storefront just to sell those. 2149 01:52:45,480 --> 01:52:47,320 I I never would have driven a tank top anyway, anyway. 2150 01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:49,960 All right. Yeah, Greg, thanks. 2151 01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:51,080 Thanks for having me on. Thank. 2152 01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:52,760 You thank you. I appreciate Greg God for 2153 01:52:52,760 --> 01:52:55,640 joining us here on Crimson Cast. Hopefully this was enjoyable. 2154 01:52:56,360 --> 01:52:59,240 If you needed a 2 hour podcast, this is the place to come. 2155 01:52:59,320 --> 01:53:01,560 Anyway, we'll be back with more on the Back Home network coming 2156 01:53:01,560 --> 01:53:04,040 up soon, including some special announcements which we're 2157 01:53:04,040 --> 01:53:06,920 looking forward to making. We'll catch you folks on the 2158 01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:08,880 flip side. Have a happy 4th of July if you 2159 01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:11,560 listened to this before then if not, have a happy 4th of July 2160 01:53:11,560 --> 01:53:13,400 next year for Greg. I'm Galen. 2161 01:53:13,400 --> 01:53:14,680 We'll catch you folks on the flip side. 2162 01:53:14,960 --> 01:53:15,520 So everybody.