You're listening to the back home network presented by home
field apparel. Welcome back to Crimson.
Cascading lab. You're joining you.
Once again, it is Sunday, July the 3rd of 2022.
The summer is just flying by and at least for this Week, we've
actually got a lot of stuff to talk about.
This is normally the dead zone of sports, particularly on the
college side of things. But instead what we have is, of
course, major structural realignment going on in college
sports and we've done several podcasts on this already.
If you haven't checked out our three podcast, that we've done
already this week on it, go back and listen to those.
We've got a little bit of a different flavor on this one,
and I'm looking forward to having this conversation.
First before we get to that, just a reminder, home-field
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The back home network and Crimson cast.
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first order with the code home, we've got joining us today a
longtime friend of the podcast and an occasional contributor to
the podcast. And a guy who is, I think very
uniquely qualified to talk about what's going on with this
particular set of moves in college sports.
It's Matt Zimmerman, you know, maybe is MZ on Twitter but But
dr. Zimmerman Professor Mississippi
State. So he teaches in the SEC but he
got his Doctorate from Indiana and his undergrad.
And he also has worked as a journalist in Los Angeles as a
native angeleno and certainly has a lot of perspective on
what's going on with the to La schools joining the Big Ten.
Matt always a pleasure to talk to you under any circumstance
but especially this one, how you doing?
Doing great Galen, glad to be here and glad to appear on the
show with the new piano intro music.
It's been a very long time. Yes.
I know it's well, it's good to have you back.
And obviously we were talking about this almost immediately
when the news broke, and I just like, when you heard the news
break, when you heard that USC and UCLA in a very short period
of time, had gone from being rumored to joining the Big Ten
to actually being members of the Big Ten, What was your reaction
given your obvious background in Los Angeles?
I thought it was a great move for USC and UCLA.
I think it's disappointing as a Pac-12 enthusiasts because the
Pac-12 is a lot, like the Big Ten, where these universities
have had a relationship for a century and they're very proud
of their academic and athletic combination.
And so, I think USC and UCLA just saw the writing on the wall
and they realized they were going to have to break it up.
So that's it was a great move for them.
Interesting. Move for the Big Ten.
But yeah, that was a great move for USC UCLA because you, we We
both know the gaps between the Haves and have-nots and and even
within that have conferences, the power 5, there's still
massive Financial gaps and they're only going to get
bigger. As I know, you've talked about
already on couple of the podcasts.
Yeah, we'll talk. There's some interesting
numbers. I read in a piece from earlier
today that I want to dig in with you, but I guess you hit on
something there. First that I think is important
and you know, I mean, there's only so many angles, we can
cover to, you know, when you hear this kind of news and
certainly for us in Crimson cast land, we're kind of giddy about
it because we sat around and, you know, you see, Texas and
Oklahoma, go to the SEC and you're like, Hey, Big Ten, you
might want to do something here, to counter the SEC, and it took
a little while, but obviously they bring in probably, you
know, two of the biggest fish left in the pond but you know,
it is, it is an interesting thing because you know coming
from the West Coast a lot of people that aren't from the West
Coast aren't from Los Angeles don't really grasp the Culture
of sports out there and the fact that, you know, there is a
separate pac-10 or Pac-12 culture and this idea that it's
kind of its own thing that stood separate for decades from
essentially the rest of college sports.
I mean, can you describe some of that and where those attitudes
and what that atmosphere, you know, is and where it comes
from? Well in the case of the Pac-12,
obviously when you look at the list of schools that have the
most national championships across the board from football
to individual track to golf to beach volleyball, the top three
or PAC 12 schools, Stanford USC UCLA.
And there is a culture out there where they do like being
separate their the Pac-12 after dark thing.
We don't mind it, they don't mind it and it's part.
That's part of it where you get to see the games late night.
We Get to see NFL games early, which I always used to say is an
opportunity to drink your sorrows away after you watch
your team lose when the LA teams, but as far as Pac-12
culture, it's like I said is very much similar to the Big Ten
in terms of the academics and Athletics and the pride in that.
And that the fact that like our version of North, excuse me
their version of Northwestern or Vanderbilt is really good at
sports across the board in the form of Stanford.
And you also have a group of schools that again, have been in
an alliance per century Oh and also there's a pride in the fact
that they have the most logical rivalry games, you know,
everything with other in Colorado and Utah.
Now was a very logical pairing and you also have just a, I
mean, every every region has its Pride, obviously, teaching the
FDC. It just means more, you know, no
one can ever describe to me what it is or what, more more than
what like I was a towards the Baseline.
This is more than such and such but I've been It's a great
story. That's a, that's a hundred
percent. A question you would ask by the
way. That's great.
Absolutely. Well, well, it men.
But then, I would say for the marketing slogan is perfect,
because it just means more and it just wants you say, hell
yeah, it does. And that's all you need.
And so, the Pac-12, it's again, the, the combo of fan bases and
schools that are huge. And there's a lot of school
pride there. And especially when you look at
USC UCLA, I mean it There's a USC family as far as as far as
the alums, will always be able to find jobs and, you know I
guess there's a solidarity and hey, you paid sixty thousand
dollars a year for college tuition.
So did I and which is an easier solidarity when you're earning
something like earning, a salary that doubles what you have to
pay in your student loans, I guess or something.
But exactly exactly. Okay, so you and I have talked
about this on and off over the Long history of our
relationship. Like what are we getting in the
Big Ten with these two schools in terms of culture, you
described a little of the USC culture.
But like I think, for those people who don't have any
interest in Los Angeles, who haven't been there?
It just like you, you know, USC from football, you know, UCLA
from basketball. But people don't really
understand much about the culture of either School.
The culture of the alumni base, Like how they perceive
themselves and each other? Can you dive into that a little
bit? The perception like I said, is
the usual school pride. And what I'll note here is what
I keep thinking about is the fact that there's a lot of
people talking about how Now by getting the Los Angeles Market,
the Big Ten has New York with Rutgers Chicago with
Northwestern and l.a. now with USC and UCLA.
Well, as you've talked about already in these pods, New York
New Jersey. Don't care about Rutgers and
they've there and they're not huge on college sport.
Anyway, Chicago, I know Northwestern has a thing.
Chicago's Big Ten team, but there's Probably just as many
very sad. Illinois fans and Indiana fans
in Chicago. Yeah, where is in Los Angeles.
There's huge fan bases and huge media coverage of USC and UCLA.
And then you have people who didn't even go there every Cal
State Fullerton, grad or Long Beach, State grad, or Northridge
grad or, or a junior college. Grab.
They all want a group for USC or UCLA.
And so there's that with the and also you have these two massive
University He's in a big city and you'd think they'd get lost
in the local sports coverage. But for two decades, Los
Angeles, did not have professional football.
And so, the media got used to covering USC and UCLA as if they
were the proteins. And so when we talk about like
school pride, I know that in the rest of the country, you know,
it just means more and in the Big Ten we see amazing school
pride from all of the alums including us.
But I would argue that there's just as much for USC UCLA and
For Oregon, Washington, Stanford, probably Arizona.
And so there's a lot of that as well where and when we talk
about West Coast culture, it's very I guess the way I would put
it is west coast culture. Is you can have a lot of money,
but you still prefer to wear a t-shirt and shorts, it's still
very mellow, very laid back, but they do love their football.
I mean, USC, and UCLA both average, 50 60, thousand people.
I mean, in those Caverns they play and it still looks like
Thousand. But there's still a lot of
support for these schools. If you were to liken the USC and
UCLA fanbases to existing Big Ten fan bases, what would you
what would be the closest analogies?
USC football is Michigan football.
As far as the level of arrogance as far as the pride, excuse me,
they level of Pride that was level as far as the behaving
like it's their Birthright to do well and I would argue that USB
probably has a better case for that than Michigan, even though
both have some storied history and all that.
But yeah, that's USC USC, I'd say.
The avatars Michigan and of course they both faced each
other in the Rose Bowl. A number of times in terms of
UCLA basketball, well I guess Indiana basketball because again
Birthright to do well in the expectation.
Plus the excellent local recruiting base and the thought
that all you need is the right coach and everything will be
rolling once again So let's let's talk a little bit about, I
guess the implications of all of this right now because you
mentioned the finances earlier and there was an interesting
piece that John Canzano wrote this morning on his blog and it
was an interview. Look at why don't we why don't
you laugh about that, okay? Because I can I can pick it up
on Jack the other day kept calling him John Kennedy's are
0. So we have a baseball coach who
named named cannizzaro and well. Anyway, go ahead.
Anyway, he does this interview with Bob Thompson, who is the
former president of Fox Sports Network's?
And he was asked, you know, what does this mean?
From a valuation perspective for the Pac-12, as they, they've
lost USC and UCLA and now they're going, they're still
doing their meteorites negotiation, and his estimation
was the Pac-12, was going to land a deal of about a half a
billion dollars per year on average, over the course of the
contract, which is about what they, you know, that's kind of
the prorated version of what they've currently got.
With Fox and ESPN. And his estimation was by losing
the to La schools, even if you added other schools, you'd now
be looking at about 300 million dollars a year, which is, you
know, that's 200 million dollars less essentially and that's
almost impossible to make up. So you know there's there's some
things you know, obviously to think about overall but it is
fascinating thinking about like how much the to La schools, you
know? Are the straw that stirs, the
drink for The pac-10 / Pac-12. And you know, his estimation was
essentially, when you look at not just the La Media Market,
but all those other media markets in Southern California.
This is likely to take all of those with them.
And you're looking at, probably, you know, if it's 200 million
dollars that is in essence more than like that's more value than
what the individual. Big Ten schools would have
necessarily even been looking at.
They were looking, I guess in this equation at about maybe 75.
80 million dollars is school. If you can add 200 million
dollars and then spread that out evenly and even among 16
schools, that's a lot of juice and that's something that as you
look at this, it's like wow, you know, this this really does
fracture West Coast centered college sports in a way that
really almost nothing else could have Absolutely.
And it's also interesting because again I that's my point
earlier where like, you know, the media coverage in there.
Lay of the of these two teams is huge and it will now get even
bigger. Because one thing that when
people scoff about this expansion, with the Big Ten when
they said Well, the West Coast that makes no sense.
Actually makes perfect sense because anyone who follows the
conference's, understands that no conferences, alums scatter
like the big tent, I mean, in the Pac-12, they stay well West.
Yes, you see, they tend to stay in the south of the Big Ten.
I mean, I always say, once you experience the midwest winter,
you want to get the hell out of there and you, huh?
So you scattered they're everywhere.
And so there are plenty of West Coast, Big Ten fans were all
over this and so and so it's not as weird to move there.
And so with them, when you throw in the money and you throw in,
you know, how much money the Big Ten is always brought in.
I mean, remember a decade ago when the big Ten's to go, we're
exploring expansion that made everybody freak.
The heck out in a way that they hadn't seven years before, when
the ACC started raiding, the Big East and so like Missouri's,
Governor begged for them to get a spot in the Big Ten and so on,
and the Big Ten ended up just wanting a Braska, but it still
caused everybody. Cause a lot of ripples to happen
and why because that's Big Ten Network.
Everybody wants their money and everybody wanted to even
monetary distribution and I think that's an underrated part
of this is we watch the big 12 fall apart during what I like to
call. I forget where I stole this from
conference Armageddon decade ago and now we have actual
conference Armageddon. We didn't get the pack 16 and
big 16. And if you see we succeeded ACC.
We 16 like we all got a decade ago, but now we're getting that
Armageddon. And why?
Because the money is so huge. And I think the Big Ten also was
not just forward-thinking with the network but was also
forward-thinking with the even monetary distribution.
Something that the Big 12 is, we know didn't happen, it is still
wild to think about, you know, Larry Scott It had Texas,
Oklahoma Oklahoma State and Texas Tech ready to join the
Pac-12 and I guess the presidents and athletic
directors voted that down this was what in 2010 or 2011.
I mean it's yeah that's a hard one to get your head wrapped
around but the there's so many you almost can't chart.
An alternate history forward with that, being the reality
because it just changes so much of the, the current equation.
I mean, some of this, it's You know what was that?
Just would have been just a bad cultural fit and it wouldn't
have worked or was that? I mean, Larry Scott gets blamed
for a lot of things but that really feels like
shortsightedness on the part of the entirety of the conference
at that point. Well and and somewhere in the
Multiverse, Larry Scott goes down in history as one of the
most effective commissioners of our lifetimes.
If that happens, right? And he's not right, quite Jim
Delaney. But that's incredible that he
actually had that deal in place and now everyone looks like
Larry Scott as wow. That guy was A real disaster and
all the things he did. I think you exact talked about
it the other day, but how do you pulled off that move regarding
cultural fits? I think the Big Ten got lucky
with this particular move with you, as seen UCLA's cultural fit
as far as academics and Athletics, but not everybody's a
cultural fit. I mean, you know, there's still
can Diego State fans and media. All over Twitter saying the
cartels gonna invite us next, right?
I mean, some things are just, not cultural say that.
That is a bad, bad Cola. Consolation prize, if you're the
pac-10 at this, Well, if it's, you know, but the cultural fit
is interesting because you look up and down the rest of the
team's, it's not like we're in a different era now and I think
this has been a tough thing, you study this stuff.
You mean you've done plenty of research on it.
This is a tough thing for people to understand because it feels
like you know when the first round of expansion started to
happen in in the mid-2000s it was.
As you mentioned, the ACC rating, the Big East, they get
Miami, Virginia Tech Boston College and that is all about
the ACC wants to be a major player.
Layer. And to be a major player, you
have to have football Brands as opposed to just a basketball
presence and they get at the time.
Miami, who was one of the preeminent, if not the
preeminent brand in college football then, you know?
So everybody gets they get finally conditioned to that.
And then the next round of expansion seven or eight years
later is really about television markets because it's all about
cable. Well now this expansion is not
really about that. It's really more about Revenue
generation, which isn't while it's Tied somewhat to TV, it's
not directly connected to TV anymore in the same way and this
is the problem for the other Pac-12 schools who might be
looking to get in the life raft. You know, if you look at and
this was in that this that comes out of article.
I mentioned earlier, you know, Oregon and Washington on there,
on the surface. Might look like good fits, you
know, their National Brands and so forth.
But do they bring enough to the table Revenue wise?
Eyes and they probably don't. And you look across the spectrum
of the rest of the Pac-12 and the schools that are still there
and it's like it. None of you really move the
needle at this point. It's tough for people to get
their heads wrapped around it. Similar to what happened in the
Big 12 where once, Texas and Oklahoma are gone, not only do
you have to schools that were taking the bulk of the money and
in the first place, but you have the only two schools that the
move, the needle there. Now, I'm not saying that the
Pac-12 has a bunch of Iowa State's and Kansas State, but
they Of a bunch of Oklahoma State's and that's the might be
a little harsh, but yeah, Washington, Washington and
Oregon. Move the needle.
As far as another move, I don't know.
I'm guessing they're both on the phone with each other and on the
phone with says, the Big Ten kind of asking for some love, I
mean there's a pact will try to merge with the big 12.
One thing, I keep thinking about is what if, what does the Big
Ten do next? What moves the needle for the
Big Ten, like everyone keeps talking about Notre Dame.
What if they call Notre Dame and say?
We can get Stanford, then does Notre Dame join because then
they can do that academic Prestige selling point and all
that do their Duty even bother like I think Stanford Notre Dame
might be the pair that the Big Ten should go for.
Yeah, I don't know. I mean a lot of it there's so
many factors that are hard to get your head wrapped around and
I think you're right. Obviously Notre Dame is probably
the last piece financially that would absolutely move the needle
and yeah you know I I'm curious what Notre Dame's thought
process his here because they've been proudly independent for so
long. And you know, they might still
want to do that, but the financial realities now are much
different than they were even 10 years ago, but there's also the
financial realities on the other side.
I mean, in order Dame coming wouldn't just be well, here's an
order Dame's Revenue, it's also like, well, if you bring Notre
Dame in, does NBC say hey, we'll pay 200 million dollars for that
package and then that goes into the Big Ten and yes in order To
aim, you know, wouldn't be keeping all of that money
themselves but they would suddenly have access to maybe
double or triple the amount of money that they could have
gotten not just on their own. But if they join a different
conference that doesn't have that that group of Brands and
you know, there's not really any other place for them to go at
this point. So you know, it's like they're
not going to join the SEC. I've seen that tossed around a
bunch like Notre Dame in the SEC would be.
I don't even have a good analogy.
That's how bad that Is and in the ACC is kind of in the same
boat right now is the Big 12 and the remnants of the Pac-12,
which is that ultimately in this current game, someone has to be
willing to give you money in exchange for the game inventory,
that you're generating and you just saw like if 200 million
dollars went away from the Pac-12, just with two schools
leaving and that essentially represents 40% of what they
could possibly earn. They're not going to bring that
back by bringing other schools in and even an order Dame in the
wild scenario would be like. Yeah, maybe we'll join the
Pac-12 remnants. It's like why would you do that?
There's, there's no Financial purpose to it.
I would compare the, Pac-12, current situation and previous
situation. Really?
Because once they grab Colorado, and Utah, there were, they
weren't going to get Boise State.
Like there are no more logical somewhat Regional Schools for
them to grab but I would compare it to the Big 12.
I mean they lost Colorado, Missouri, Texas A&M and Nebraska
they lost you know for strong. State schools, of course,
Flagship schools of their state or am sort of the other Flagship
school. And they added TCU and West,
Virginia, that's not an upgrade even if you're a Mountaineers
fan, that's true. Yeah, that's what West Virginia
really is at this point, kind of the most culturally, like,
disconnected from their conference.
That that really is a marriage of convenience more than
anything else. Well, well, I was just going to
say and what's funny about that And that.
And that reminds me of with the travel, reminds me of how some
are saying, we're USC, and UCLA all that travel.
And it said, well, USC, and UCLA can afford to send their girls
car. Excuse me, women's cross country
team to Columbus, Ohio on a chartered flight.
Yeah, there will be okay. And also with the travel may
acquaint, you with Conference USA, right?
Which is conference, Cornucopia, none of those schools have the
kind of money. These big 10 schools have and
yet they're traveling Insanity. Well, and even, I mean, I gotta
say that the Whole thing has been really overblown, this
already happens this travel, as you just mentioned, it's already
taking place. And if you, if you work in a
college environment as both of us do and you you know you've
got athlete's not just in football and basketball but
you've got to athletes in volleyball and water, polo and
baseball and softball who are already all over the country.
They're flying everywhere. Now that a little bit of that
got pulled back from covid, be just because Revenues went down,
but the moment, things went back to normal all that came back as
well. So yeah.
But the argument that somehow the travel thing is a big issue,
especially, for these two schools, which are you do have
one of the like five biggest airports in the United States
sitting there within what 45 minutes of each campus maybe
with traffic an hour. But it's like hitting on
traffic, but it's but it just it does feel like that is a bit of
a red herring. I mean, But let me ask you this
if you know travel not being that big of a deal.
Do you see any potential problems or pitfalls here?
That we need to be keeping an eye on with this expansion.
Leaving everything else off the table.
Well, just to go quickly to the one that some people are trying
to say. Even though this has nothing to
do with college expansion at all, some are worried about the
academics for these athletes. But you mentioned with covid,
another executive covid-19 slot of people, a lot of students And
a lot of schools got used to having a lot of online courses,
so a lot of these student athletes are going to be travel
a lot. They'll just have online
courses. Are they going to request?
I'm just this will all be handled like.
There's not going to be something, they're not going to
ask me to be in class, you know, five days a week or anything
like that. This will all be figured out on
that level you asked about pitfalls, right?
Yep, potential pitfalls. I don't know that you're the
travel will be lengthy, but at the same time, I mean, big West
schools fly to Hawaii to play volleyball and so I as far as
pitfalls, I don't see any for a u.s. you UCLA.
I don't see any for the Big Ten to be honest.
Because now, the Big Ten is throwing the gauntlet down in
the face of the SEC and said, you know, we'll see your Texas
and Oklahoma and raise you Los Angeles market.
So, we'll see what happens there.
I mean I Don't I mean there'll be some pitfalls like for
instance some certain sports that certain teams that got used
to dominating, the Pac-12 aren't going to be able to dominate The
Big Ten and there will be certain teams that got used to
dominating. You know.
Maybe like there's a tennis team or a soccer team, got used to
dominating the Big Ten and now they have you I think UCLA
coming in and maybe they're not going to dominate this much like
you know, are you start? Well, I use markers and
consistently dominant as it had been but now UCLA's coming in.
I mean, And do the pitfalls at the same time as you any
pitfalls, outweigh the benefits. I mean, I mentioned UCLA.
Now, UCLA in Indiana might have had hard times in more recent
years but this is still two of the top six historical College,
men's college basketball programs of all time.
USC's one of the top five or six college football programs of all
time. I mean the benefits for this
greatly outweigh the pitfalls. I mean what patrols do you see?
Well I mean I don't see a whole lot and you know a lot of people
have raised the The banner of oh well it just won't feel the same
to have these teams playing each other and not have these
traditional rivalries. Then that is something I'm
curious about with with the LA schools.
I mean, USC versus UCLA is one that we know about is there a
lot of Romanticism about, like, you know, weekend trips to
Corvallis in the Pac-12 that I'm not aware of?
Well, the other example I was going to use was everyone's
going to miss that hot USC, Arizona, football match up or
that or that. How'd you know, UCLA Washington,
State, basketball match up. No, I they won't be missed as
long as they brought each other and even if there might be some
fans who say they're missed or some fans of other programs, you
say the rivalries and Miss, you're seeing UCLA had to make
this move. I mean they had to be proactive
and make this kind of move to preserve their future as clean
as to continue being. Great college, sports programs
and I know that's been a goal because, you know, academics are
important and all that other stuff which they are obviously.
In our world. But these moves have nothing to
do with that. They have to do with financial
success in athletics, and USC, and UCLA had to do this.
I'm sure there'll be some us defense were like, well, we miss
playing Stanford, but one thing I saw was one college sports
pundit. I forget who on Twitter was
saying, man. The USC fan, or the USC and UCLA
friends going to miss out on this great Pac-12 road trips.
You know, the organ and, and Arizona.
And it's like, dude, they just they just moved up to the
varsity College. All road trips.
They're going to Happy Valley now, they're going to Columbus.
Now, they're going to Ann Arbor. Now, they'll be okay.
You know, that, you know, it's like, it's been like that with
some of the big Ted stuff. It's like, you know, yes, I
think you could make the argument against, okay, why did
we add Rutgers? But, you know, adding it adding
Maryland for from, for basketball both men's and
women's basketball or soccer adding Nebraska for football,
even though that's not a great football program, that's still a
great road trip. Going to Lincoln That's a really
special and unique home environment.
It is it's like it things haven't gotten worse and it'll
be different. But I don't think that that
automatically means it's going to be bad and that's going to be
an interesting thing to watch. Couple more questions for you.
One you like Raina did want to please wait for a good having
been to a couple Rose Bowls and even before I attended I you I
always chuckled about how the fans of Ohio State at the second
one. I went to in Penn State, the
first one word Just walking around, like, like Harry Potter.
The first time he goes to Diagon Alley in the first, we were just
out of. I may have just lost half our
listeners but he's looking up and he's constantly like, oh my
God. This is most amazing thing ever.
Like they're they're they're they're traveling to the Rose
Bowl and saying my God, January 1st, and I'm not wearing a
parka. This is amazing.
And now they'll get to have that experience a couple times a year
going to USC and UCLA. So, so that's another thing is
like, the travel there. I would argue that, there's,
there's not going to be single person.
Whose lives in Detroit. Who's a huge Michigan fan?
Who's like Carla La in November? Why would I do that?
They'll be like man, when so scheduling a circle that on the
calendar. So please go ahead, I'm sorry.
No, it's fine. You obviously, were you were a
journalist in, Southern California, you covered High
School sports, you followed along with college teams out
there. I think people forget sometimes
how fertile the recruiting grounds are in Southern
California and how many sports There are I was just out in
Hermosa Beach for a few days and you know what, we're walking
along the Strand, my wife and I are and you know, she was kind
of stunned at how many people just play volleyball there all
the time? You know, they're out there at
like 8:00 a.m. on a Saturday morning and they're there for
like seven eight hours if not longer.
So like, how much does this? Let Big Ten teams maybe into
that recruiting Bit more, does that open up the Big Ten schools
as a potential landing spot for a lot of these athletes?
In Southern California, potentially, we see it already
to some degree with like water polo where Indiana is in a
conference that is essentially all California teams.
You know how how much of a benefit might this be for
particularly Olympic sports at places like Indiana and other
big 10 schools. Well, let me rewind a little bit
and just say, I know people who have like normal person careers,
you know, making six figures and all that out there, who their
lunch break is they go to the beach and play volleyball for an
hour or two acceptance. And some, frankly, like this
sign sign me up for that lifestyle, because I do people
wake up at 5 a.m. 5 days a week. So, it's a different lifestyle.
Now, as far as Big Ten schools being able to recruit out there,
absolutely like La kids don't necessarily always say They did
USC would be a Powerhouse every year.
I'm going to get highly recruiting classes but for
instance, when an organ is really good, it's because
they're snatching kids out of the Los Angeles Market.
If you look at their rosters and I would argue that, I mean like
we visit Tuscaloosa, it's 90 minutes from here and we go
because it has a water burger and a safe, the simple things in
life. But I've seen people there do
today with the Oh California place and I'll say you know,
where you from is like San Bernardino or something and it
It's football players. And so I think you have a great
football program. I mean, 10 years ago, I thought
that the Big Ten might suffer because a lot of people would, a
lot of recruits would want to live in the snowy areas, but I
realized that was just me projecting.
And so in actuality, I think Michigan, Ohio, State etcetera
will get will get more, California recruits.
And as you pointed out to, I think Scott the other day mates
that failed as a California court for Indiana.
So yeah, I think with this kind of footprint out there because
now instead of a pact Oh versus Big Ten and which ones better
thing among La Media. Now you know they've joined the
Empire that is the Big Ten and so you'll see a lot more
positive coverage and a lot more of you know, talking about, you
know, these USC fans just want in their first road trip to Ann
Arbor and they have a lot of great things to say music 11.
And so you NE see a lot of that going on.
And I think they're recruiting, I mean, you know, I'm going to
have a bunch of California kids like walk out there but I think
that now with recruiting The world is so much smaller because
of cable and streaming TV and the internet moving, you know,
1,800 miles away from home. Even if home Southern California
is not that for another thing. I don't think and especially
with n IL, you know, USC and UCLA can't get every single
recruit. I mean I covered Long Beach
State for a while which the big West you talk about.
You know, you'll never see a big whack team in the volleyball
title again with all this or the baseball title or anything.
But even there like some of those athletes, they went
through their we're Like, well, you know, they didn't have good
enough grades because the USC or UCLA or whatever and there's
some really good athletes there. I mean, if you talk about the
high schools out there, the area we covered in the largest, The
Long Beach area, we had 50 some high schools and we were so
good. Kids were getting badminton
scholarships. That's How Deep The Sports were,
who's giving badminton scholarships.
I'm curious, Baird, where they were, what happened was there
were kids who are like in the national team pool.
Uh-huh. And so schools.
We're giving of like a cute as the coach that the calling in an
academic scholarship, but it's because they want to wear them
there to play, badminton is the Lori, Loughlin Memorial
badminton scholarship, like what your kids are actually good and
I think we're good. Okay, last question for you big
picture so it feels from a like a tactical perspective that the
SEC has really decided we're going to double down on
football. Football is going to be the
thing that we try to own. And we don't care, if we are
contained in a relatively small, geographical region, in the
United States, whereas the Big Ten with this move, has
basically said, we are the National brand.
We are essentially, you know, not just the NFL Junior, but
we're kind of like the the second tier, like the college
basketball league that you can find something basically
wherever you are in the u.s. except for the Deep South, which
of those. Strategies.
Do you think ends up having more success down the road?
And, you know, I guess for either conference what would be
your ideal next move? I think the Big Ten strategy is
appropriate for who the Big Ten is.
As we talked about earlier, they're alumnus scatter across
the country and the Big Ten Network was in every home from
coast to coast sea to shining sea.
I mean I go home to visit my parents and immediately turn on
Big Ten Network just cause I can and you they don't have SEC
network on their, on their cable package, for instance.
But Big Ten Network came as part of their basic sports package.
So the big ten hours Argue that grabbing USC and UCLA as part of
its Manifest Destiny. Now, if they wanted to try to
connect the state to get the kid, what is Nebraska's
connected to Colorado and then they could grab Arizona, I don't
think they're interested in any of that anymore.
So I think there's a long-term strategy.
There is huge because the SEC all of their expansion has made
sense geographically. And so when you grab
texas-oklahoma that still makes total sense for the SEC in many
ways as far as what sports they're strong in and as far as
athletic culture and academic culture and all that and it's
going to be fun. Watching Texas, finished fourth
in its division. Every year football in the SEC.
As a lot of fans are already saying down here, but I think
that I think of both have a strategy that is endemic to
them. Like as you say Notre Dame isn't
going to join the SEC and like the CeCe is going to be like in
the SEC is not going to snatch a Syracuse or Pittsburgh and, you
know, they're not going to go completely out of their region.
There's and then I'm going to grab Washington Oregon, the Big
Ten can because again, they're there are a lot of Ohio State
Michigan alums in LA and Indiana lumps in l.a. right now saying.
Oh cool. Maybe we'll, hopefully we get to
see our team play here. There's in the SEC.
The alums don't scatter as much now for each one.
As far as the next move. It's funny because I was, I was
talking to her talking to someone else last night, and the
talking to Ted and I'm in love with the idea of Stanford other
day. And for the Big Ten at first, I
was like Washington, Oregon makes sense, but now I think
Stanford and Notre Dame would be such a coup because then they
could say, see we, we do care about Athletics academics.
Academics are important. I was joking to somebody the
other day. Like it's like that scene from
Goodfellas, you know, which I know you haven't seen still,
which is crazy. But that Finally walked in full
a couple of years ago. Please get to you, okay.
But yeah, it's like that scene at the Copa were, you know, it's
like Notre Dame's for the athletic directors but
Stanford's really for the president's, you know, it's
like, well, hey, if we could add this, the of those this August
academic institution, really two of them, one of them, that is a
national football brand and the other one that not just, you
know, doesn't have this huge endowment and, and all of these
rich donors but also has all of these Olympic sports.
Like that's that's that is kind of the Tonic ideal of that
handshake between Administration and Athletics, that everybody
seems to be after. Well, and I think it would be a
shame for Stanford to be stuck in a diminished pac-10.
Like, I really love to see them cash in as well.
Because yeah, they, I mean, they're ivy league with an
athletic program legitimately just across the board.
I mean, they're probably the best combo of academics and
Athletics in the whole country. I would argue, well, Michigan
would probably tell you differently, but yeah, actually,
the Stanford is that. And so, yeah, they be the big
feather in the, in the big Ten's cat because, like Stanford and,
and Cal Berkeley. Would not be as big a feather.
Yeah. Stanford in Washington or
Stanford and Oregon obvious because it but if they can get
paired with Notre, Dame and then would be an enticement for
Notre, Dame. Like a you play these guys
sometimes already sort of arrival and you know, you can
come in and, and your president can with a straight face, say we
just really love the academic pairing here.
I think that would be an excellent combo for everybody in
the Big Ten at least we'll have to see what happens with the two
schools involved. I'm also interested though, if
like do they stop if they that mean?
It's like if Notre Dame doesn't join the kind of feels like the
Big Ten can say, hey, we're good at 16.
We don't really don't need to add anybody else if Notre Dame.
Says yes, we'd like to be a part of this.
They'll probably add at least one more and then it just
becomes a matter of okay, what else is on the table?
How much money are we talking about, you know, in a, you know,
it's funny because, you know, you start breaking down the
numbers and there's a big Difference between a billion and
a half dollar contract, split, you know, 16 ways versus one
that's split, 18 or 20 ways but if you can add schools that
suddenly get that up to 2 billion then suddenly it's like
yeah you know, 20 schools is fine, we could go for that.
So I do think that's something that people need to.
Keep in mind as we go through this next set of changes
whenever they happen and whether they happen quickly, or whether
they happen kind of as they're, you know, in a Our Pace.
It's going to be interesting to watch.
I mean, this really did come out of nowhere and I guess, you
know, the the that was the thing that was the most surprising to
me was just how little anybody had heard about it.
To not have any leaks in this era for something this big and
have two major universities involved, I whatever their
teaching at USC and UCLA about leak Management in offices, I
think they needed bottle that and try to sell it to the rest
of the country. At this point, Without a doubt
and it's funny because whenever the next one happened, it's it's
going to not leak either. And that's what's incredible is
first, I was going to joke earlier, oh, we're not here to
talk about Kevin Durant attending trade because ESPN is
at harping on that probably because they didn't break this
particular news. But then really no one truly
broke this booze. It was about it was you, as
you've noted on the other podcast, it was hours away from
half actually happening when it was announced on Twitter.
And it's interesting because You know, you also has with the SEC.
I don't know who they could take.
I know you guys have talked about Carolina, maybe Clemson,
but I did see a couple tweets. Were people like, well, what
about all the Texas schools or more Florida schools and it's
like Baylor and Texas Tech should not be sitting by the
phone. I'm sorry there's no way and
it's interesting that you mentioned the numbers because at
this point I think Notre Dame needs it financially Notre, Dame
needs a big ten. More than the Big Ten each other
day. I have numbers in front of me
here where the For the pandemic, like the 2018-2019, every Big
Ten, school got 55 million dollars, except for Rutgers and
Maryland because they were still newbies and SEC.
Every school got about 45 million dollars.
I mean, those numbers have dropped because the covid
they're going to wrap it back up.
And as you noted, there was a report that Big Ten and ACC
looking at 90 100 million dollars in just a few short
years. So there's Notre Dame Spike that
even more for the Big Ten, I'm in the Big Ten unlike they 20 30
years ago can just wait out Notre Dame.
Now Yeah, that's that really is ultimately kind of where we're
at with things, and it's going to be interesting to see how it
transpires because it does feel like at this point, you know, in
the 2010 cycle, both Notre Dame and the Big Ten held some cards.
And it just feels like, at this point, it's clear that the Big
Ten could go all in on Notre Dame if they wanted to and I
don't think Notre Dame's got the cards to beat it.
So now it's like, well, the equations change in mentality is
change on these things and What are you going to do?
Is result and your SEC points really interesting because I've
been trying to ideate on that a little bit, I was talking about
it on Twitter a little bit yesterday I don't even know like
we identified Clemson and Florida State as The Logical
items. But man you look at average
television audience last year like Florida state's average
television audience in football was about the same as Indiana's
and that should marry that should frighten.
You if you're the big Ted or if you actually airworthy sec, Or
if your Florida State, it's like, well, we're, you know, we
aren't as dominant of a brand people her ever heard of us.
We've obviously had a lot of success, we've won a national
title with in recent memory, but I think this is the big question
mark and a lot of it is what is the measure of value that the
conference's are using to try to figure out who to add and does
that measure of value actually match?
What the average fan or the average journalist perceives?
The value might be of an individual institution and its
Athletics teams. I mean, that's Clemson
obviously, is a big name in college football right now, but,
I mean, go back in time, 10, 15 years, you know, you'd have a
hard time picking Clemson out of a lineup in terms of kind of the
middle of the ACC. And, you know, I've heard I've
seen people making arguments about like, you know, schools
that aren't like Mega successful in football that are in the Big
Ten or the SEC. The two schools that we I work
for kind of fit in that, but the difference there is like you're
you're already in at that point, you don't have to justify your
presence. Whereas here you're talking
literally about here, let's pull up a chair and give you a seat
at the table. Oh, by the way, what are you
bringing to the table yourself? And that's, that's going to be a
really interesting thing to keep in mind as we move forward with
all this. Well, that's the thing is as
Indiana guys. And you work there now I work at
Mississippi State, I like to say that Mississippi state did just
win a National Title. Dylan the other sport that SEC
schools worship but at the same time if there was true
conference Armageddon and everybody's just thrown into a
bucket. I think I hope that both Indiana
Mississippi state would find a home but it's not certain.
I mean we're not like Kansas where there's no way or I would
say where it's like well I think you know there's a lot of my
basis you know certainly come into play with all of this and
and I think to some degree, both of those schools are kind of in
an interesting spot. Indiana probably in a slightly
better position overall. All the Mississippi state but I
think neither neither of those schools is in danger, you know,
this is where people get things confused.
It's like, oh well, you can add and subtract teams as needed and
there's a lot more to the picture.
Whether it's how many eyeballs will this school, bring in, or
how many living alumni they have or in the case of Mississippi
State. Hey, there's actually some
success in some Key sports here that that contributes to the
overall well-being and the inventory in the inventory ends
up being the most important thing because all these
television partners and these streaming partner You have to
have things to put on in order to get people to watch so that
they can sell subscriptions or advertising or both so well and
the Big Ten Network, even though all these movies are for
football, they do like to show volleyball, they do like Jacko,
soccer, I mean and that matters. It's interesting what you said
Also regarding Brands and like Florida State in their TV
ratings and overrated Brands Miami's, another one, I mean, I
wonder Florida state is like Miami and that their beloved
when they're really, really, really good.
But when they're not really, really, really good.
It's like, Maybe, yeah. Well, lots of things to think
about and I have a sneaking suspicion, we may be talking
about some more news on this front sooner rather than later.
No, inside info, just a suspicion on my part, but no one
has inside info. Yeah, gonna do know it really at
this point, I wouldn't believe anybody that says they have
inside info. It's it's pretty remarkable.
So there's some it's a great thing.
And terrible thing about social is that you can guess, and maybe
your guess is, we'll be right? But that didn't mean that you
knew necessarily So anyway, Matt Zimmerman, thanks for joining us
as always a pleasure and look forward to our next
conversation. Thank you Galen love to be in
here. Absolutely, thanks to everybody
for listening, and thanks to our presenting sponsor home-field
apparel. We will be back with more
chatter on this, as the news arises.
And I'm again, as I said, I'm certain, he's going to be some
more news coming up. So stick with us here.
Be sure to like subscribe rate review, Crimson cast on iTunes
Spotify. What have you?
I'm Galen clivia will catch you folks on the flip side.
Bring back the Bison. So long, everybody.