1 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,440 You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:19,640 Field Apparel. Welcome back to Crimson 3 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,000 Cascaille and Claudio Scott Caulfield joining you. 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,040 It is Tuesday, August 8th. We still owe you folks a bunch 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,440 of value football podcast and we will be getting to them 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,920 throughout the course of these next few weeks as we continue to 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,520 March towards the start of the season. 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,960 But there's so much going on with college sports realignment 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,400 and restructuring and just kind of a changing of the fabric of 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,160 things that we wanted to go ahead and do another episode. 11 00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:46,760 If you missed the first one that we did at Crimson Cast last 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,400 week, we had our friends Zach on to talk through things and 13 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,850 that's worth the listen. But Scott and I wanted to tackle 14 00:00:53,850 --> 00:00:55,410 some of the questions that are out there as well. 15 00:00:55,410 --> 00:00:58,450 We had some thoughts we wanted to share and also had some 16 00:00:58,450 --> 00:01:02,450 questions from you folks out there in X land that we wanted 17 00:01:02,450 --> 00:01:04,129 to get to. So Scott, good to see you. 18 00:01:04,489 --> 00:01:07,170 Always nice to catch up with you mid afternoon. 19 00:01:07,850 --> 00:01:10,210 Yeah, good to talk to. You know, I I highly recommend I 20 00:01:10,210 --> 00:01:12,490 texted you like that. The positive of Zach was was 21 00:01:12,490 --> 00:01:13,810 awesome. So I look at this as kind of 22 00:01:13,810 --> 00:01:17,650 like the sister companion, maybe hopefully as good of a sequel. 23 00:01:17,650 --> 00:01:19,730 But no, that was a great pod. I learned a lot. 24 00:01:19,730 --> 00:01:22,090 I kind of dug into it. The only thing I'll say is that 25 00:01:22,090 --> 00:01:25,250 yesterday I was in Bloomington. I was with my dad who you know 26 00:01:25,250 --> 00:01:27,570 and it was just kind of he had actually like he's getting 27 00:01:27,570 --> 00:01:28,730 older. He's 93. 28 00:01:28,730 --> 00:01:30,890 God blessed me still all here and and and lucid. 29 00:01:30,890 --> 00:01:33,170 But he we're kind of talking about this stuff and he didn't 30 00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:36,690 know it was finalized and but he was trying to say like, NIL has 31 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:40,320 really messed up college sports. But he kept on saying like, man, 32 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:42,840 like OPEC, like keeps on messing up college sports. 33 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:46,160 He gets on getting his acronyms messed up and I guess somebody 34 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,840 who mispronounces stuff. I I appreciate it was like 4 35 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,680 different times. He's like I can't believe like 36 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,360 OPEC is messing up with the it's like all right dad OPEC is not I 37 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,520 I do love I do love the idea of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela like 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:04,320 tanking the PAC 12 like that's that's 100% certainly I mean the 39 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,000 way it. Pays for Florida State to get 40 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,760 out of the ACC? No, I was going to say with the 41 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,000 world of sovereign wealth funds, that's not that far off. 42 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,320 You know, it's Venezuela's like Citgo. 43 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,760 Like what about Conference USA? I think there's some real 44 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,740 possibilities there. Yeah, so. 45 00:02:18,820 --> 00:02:21,580 So my dad's mispronunciation might be like the prophecy for 46 00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:23,820 the future and OPEC taking over college sports. 47 00:02:23,820 --> 00:02:26,580 I think it would be the first leader college sports has had in 48 00:02:26,580 --> 00:02:31,060 like 50 years. So it's I I'm trying to fake. 49 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:33,580 What for? I no, I actually already have 50 00:02:33,580 --> 00:02:35,540 the answer. Well, because like the live tour 51 00:02:35,780 --> 00:02:39,670 they got Greg Norman, who like shot all of his credibility, you 52 00:02:39,670 --> 00:02:44,110 know, long time ago. And so like, what former college 53 00:02:44,150 --> 00:02:47,630 star or athlete could they get? And the answer is immediate. 54 00:02:47,630 --> 00:02:51,470 It's Craig James like like unquestionably, you know, former 55 00:02:51,470 --> 00:02:56,830 SMU guy who you know, was on ESPN sued Mike Leach. 56 00:02:57,430 --> 00:03:00,710 You know, I mean has just kind of been a jerk about everything. 57 00:03:00,710 --> 00:03:03,890 I mean that seems like and he's also got an oil tie like he's 58 00:03:03,890 --> 00:03:07,330 from Texas. I see a lot of of overlap there 59 00:03:07,330 --> 00:03:10,210 they where he could be the spokesperson for the new OPEC 60 00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:13,450 fueled, pun intended college football situation. 61 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:15,400 I like it. I got a better answer. 62 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,840 It's Chefsky. Yeah, Chefsky is like he was 63 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,200 like so always like above the board but yet Grand Team USA and 64 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,800 had this huge advantage of doing that and always you know that 65 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,040 Duke was always like, oh, we play by the rules, but yet they 66 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,240 always seemed to get guys like Zion Williamson like that's a 67 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,480 total Chefsky moves. That would be my my pick. 68 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,280 I was going to say I think Chefsky's too old. 69 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:37,160 Then I looked he's only 14 years older than Craig James, so it's 70 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:38,560 not like they're completely out of the ball. 71 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,120 I like maybe both. Maybe we need one spokesperson 72 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,840 for football, 1 spokesperson for basketball, and I'm sure we 73 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,600 could find somebody somewhere with one of the other Olympic 74 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,720 sports to that's that's. And then you can get and then 75 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,600 you can get Saban just be like and you know and you know and no 76 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,960 that was Beltec, sorry. Beltec like we're on to the on 77 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:57,920 to the UAE. Sorry anyone. 78 00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:59,640 No, it's fine. Just a reminder folks, we're 79 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,000 brought to you by home field apparel your place to go for 80 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,680 college fabrics, fashions that the best new designs for 81 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,080 colleges all over the country. They've got more redesigns and 82 00:04:10,450 --> 00:04:13,810 refreshes coming out. It seems like on a daily basis, 83 00:04:13,810 --> 00:04:18,250 like every time I go to my e-mail because I'm subscribed to 84 00:04:18,250 --> 00:04:21,930 the Home Field newsletter, there's something new that has 85 00:04:21,930 --> 00:04:27,130 popped up and is is just amazing and it's it's just one of those 86 00:04:27,130 --> 00:04:28,410 things. You got to go check it out if 87 00:04:28,410 --> 00:04:31,770 you haven't already. Most recently they, I mean I I 88 00:04:31,770 --> 00:04:34,450 would never wear this stuff personally, but they refresh 89 00:04:34,450 --> 00:04:38,290 their Michigan, Ohio State and Michigan State gear and actually 90 00:04:38,290 --> 00:04:41,210 kind of look really good. We talked about the UTEP stuff 91 00:04:41,450 --> 00:04:44,970 last time we had a show and they just dropped. 92 00:04:44,970 --> 00:04:48,690 If you haven't seen this yet, they have a new newsletter. 93 00:04:48,770 --> 00:04:52,650 The it's called Buried Treasure, the Forgotten gems of college 94 00:04:52,650 --> 00:04:55,970 Football history and it's written by Ryan Manny for those 95 00:04:55,970 --> 00:05:00,210 of you who follow Shutdown Full Cast or you know that that that 96 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:02,930 whole scene with Spencer Hall and Jason Kirk. 97 00:05:03,730 --> 00:05:08,760 Ryan is probably the funniest of those guys at certainly the one 98 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,600 I enjoy listening to the most. And it's going to be fascinating 99 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,360 watching and writing a newsletter, the newsletter 100 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,200 focusing on the forgotten gems of college football history. 101 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,720 So be sure to sign up for that and go to Home Field apparel. 102 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:23,920 Get yourself some new apparel if you haven't been before. 103 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:28,920 Use the code, Home HOME and get 15% off your first order. 104 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,600 All right, Scott, let's dive into things. 105 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:37,420 We had some kind of leftovers from the talk that we had on on 106 00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:41,460 at the end of the week last week regarding college sports and we 107 00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:43,580 had some lingering questions that were kind of overarching 108 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:46,060 the people have asked and then we had some specific questions 109 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:49,180 that you find folks who listen to the show had reached out 110 00:05:49,180 --> 00:05:51,180 with. So I wanted to touch on a couple 111 00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:54,820 of those things first. So one of the questions that we 112 00:05:54,820 --> 00:05:58,180 got and and it's still been getting and it's actually even 113 00:05:58,180 --> 00:06:01,790 more pertinent now that we've seen some news you go, we heard 114 00:06:01,790 --> 00:06:04,750 obviously that the Oregon and Washington are joining the Big 115 00:06:04,750 --> 00:06:09,910 10. Wait what Scott, we had to 116 00:06:09,990 --> 00:06:12,870 remember we had to remind you last week that Kevin Wilson had 117 00:06:12,870 --> 00:06:15,510 a head coaching job. So nothing, nothing is beyond 118 00:06:15,510 --> 00:06:17,710 you at this point in terms of not paying attention. 119 00:06:17,710 --> 00:06:22,760 But everybody asked the question, wait, OK Oregon, sure. 120 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,560 Washington, sure. No Stanford, no cow like those 121 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,600 seem like shoe ins for everything that the Big 10 seems 122 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,040 to want. High level academic schools that 123 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,880 also have BCS level, like I said it again Scott, also have power 124 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,880 conference level athletic programs, particularly in 125 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,240 football. You've got the Bay Area, which 126 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,760 is obviously one of the biggest media markets in the country. 127 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,320 Why is it that we don't have Stanford and Cal in this mix? 128 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,000 I mean, first of all, were you surprised when you heard that 129 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,560 they're just adding Oregon and Washington at this point? 130 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,440 I was, I I honestly, I always looked at Arizona or Arizona 131 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,160 State as an interesting ad just because of the the Phoenix 132 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,400 market is so many, you know, Midwesterners in the Phoenix 133 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,240 area. So I was, I was kind of curious. 134 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,800 It didn't seem like they were ever on the radar, but no the 135 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,550 the the Cal Stanford thing. I find interesting because you 136 00:07:15,550 --> 00:07:18,630 and I mentioned it, we talked about it offline too that when 137 00:07:18,950 --> 00:07:21,910 the Big 10 released that schedule, you know what is it, 138 00:07:21,910 --> 00:07:24,830 you know two or three months ago, the 2024-2025 schedule. 139 00:07:24,830 --> 00:07:27,270 Like the first thing I pretty sure I said on the spot is like 140 00:07:27,590 --> 00:07:30,310 you noticed they, you know we've had leaders and legends in East 141 00:07:30,310 --> 00:07:32,110 and West. Like there was no divisions and 142 00:07:32,310 --> 00:07:35,550 it was like very obvious you could easily add more teams to 143 00:07:35,550 --> 00:07:37,550 this schedule without a lot of reengineering. 144 00:07:38,990 --> 00:07:40,590 And I think that as we look back. 145 00:07:41,110 --> 00:07:45,030 You know, we don't know what's going on, but to me, I think 146 00:07:45,030 --> 00:07:48,550 it's very obvious the Big 10, if they wanted Cal and Stanford 147 00:07:48,550 --> 00:07:50,950 could have gotten them two, two or three days ago. 148 00:07:51,190 --> 00:07:54,190 They didn't. And so that leads to me the deep 149 00:07:54,190 --> 00:07:58,310 that the next question is why didn't they get them because for 150 00:07:58,310 --> 00:08:00,910 all of the, oh, Washington, Oregon help travel in the West, 151 00:08:00,910 --> 00:08:03,150 like not really. It's still 1000 miles from 152 00:08:03,150 --> 00:08:06,190 Seattle to Lai mean it's it's that's like, you know, Iowa to 153 00:08:06,190 --> 00:08:08,750 Rutgers. Almost like it's not super close 154 00:08:08,750 --> 00:08:10,880 travel. That would definitely help the 155 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,000 West Coast travel, having six teams out there. 156 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,560 To me it kind of signals I think in a, you know, two days or 18 157 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,080 months, you know, we'll probably see the Big 10 add two or four 158 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,920 more teams and I would assume that those teams are more 159 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,240 attractive to the Big 10 than Callen Stanford. 160 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,680 That's kind of how I viewed it. Is that they? 161 00:08:30,730 --> 00:08:33,610 They knew they were there, they just didn't want them because 162 00:08:33,610 --> 00:08:35,530 they might want something else instead. 163 00:08:35,530 --> 00:08:38,850 And also know that there's really not a lot of places Cal 164 00:08:38,850 --> 00:08:42,809 and Stanford can go and they can probably grab them in 12 months 165 00:08:42,809 --> 00:08:44,730 if they want to. Anyway, that that's how I viewed 166 00:08:44,730 --> 00:08:45,890 it. I mean, they can probably grab 167 00:08:45,890 --> 00:08:49,130 them anytime they want to, but I think that's ultimately the key. 168 00:08:49,290 --> 00:08:52,850 So this is where I think we have to be. 169 00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:56,970 I think one of the problems with trying to figure out college 170 00:08:56,970 --> 00:08:59,970 sports expansion now as opposed to what it was when we talked 171 00:08:59,970 --> 00:09:03,530 about it 13 months ago is what are the rules of engagement? 172 00:09:03,530 --> 00:09:05,370 What are what are people trying to do? 173 00:09:05,810 --> 00:09:09,080 And I think it's important to understand that a school can be 174 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,520 a great academic fit, it can be a great geographic fit, but if 175 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,240 it's not a great financial fit, it's probably not going to be 176 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,240 included at the highest echelon in this round. 177 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,720 And clearly, and we talked about this a little bit on the show 178 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,960 that we did last week, Stanford has really let its football 179 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,520 program fall off from the heights that they were at when 180 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,750 Harbaugh was there. And you know where they're at 181 00:09:33,750 --> 00:09:35,990 now. It's just this gulf of 182 00:09:36,030 --> 00:09:38,710 achievement. And that has had an absolute 183 00:09:38,710 --> 00:09:41,830 direct effect on how popular they are to watch on television. 184 00:09:41,830 --> 00:09:44,790 The answer is not very. They also don't have an alumni 185 00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:49,390 base that is particularly turned on by football, Other sports, 186 00:09:49,430 --> 00:09:51,910 Yes. Football, not as much. 187 00:09:51,910 --> 00:09:55,870 Cal is in an even worse position because, yes, I mean, they've 188 00:09:55,870 --> 00:09:59,570 had their moments of glory in football, but they've not had 189 00:09:59,570 --> 00:10:02,930 those in a while. And again, they don't have a big 190 00:10:02,970 --> 00:10:06,890 audience that they command in the PAC 12 or on a national 191 00:10:06,890 --> 00:10:09,290 stage. And so I think what occurred 192 00:10:09,290 --> 00:10:12,970 with all of this was the Big 10 new, and I think this is the 193 00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:15,410 president's as much as it is the television networks. 194 00:10:16,150 --> 00:10:19,430 Here we have an opportunity to add 2 truly national brands. 195 00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:23,310 Oregon, who's knocked on the doorstep or knocked on the door? 196 00:10:23,310 --> 00:10:24,550 I don't know if you've knocked on the doorstep. 197 00:10:24,550 --> 00:10:27,510 You've got some problems of of a national title on a couple of 198 00:10:27,510 --> 00:10:29,150 occasions. They've got all that Nike money 199 00:10:29,150 --> 00:10:30,390 behind them. They've got the most 200 00:10:30,390 --> 00:10:32,630 recognizable uniforms in college football. 201 00:10:32,830 --> 00:10:36,550 They have occupied a particular demographic from an interest 202 00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:38,950 perspective for a while. And then Washington, who has won 203 00:10:38,950 --> 00:10:42,800 a national title and while they haven't been a top level player, 204 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,680 they've been to a beast like an FBS or the the College Football 205 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:48,360 Playoff, like they've been in the mix. 206 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:51,760 Thank you. Yes, they've been in the mix as 207 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:56,160 far as the national stage. And you would want to add those 208 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,680 programs, those schools, if you were the Big 10, because in 209 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:03,090 addition to all of that, they also fit the academic profile. 210 00:11:03,570 --> 00:11:06,570 I don't think the Big 10 felt like splitting the pie 211 00:11:06,810 --> 00:11:09,130 significantly more than they already have. 212 00:11:09,130 --> 00:11:11,930 And indeed, if you look at the deal that Oregon and Washington 213 00:11:11,930 --> 00:11:15,930 agreed to, it's like half the money that the other Big 10 214 00:11:15,930 --> 00:11:18,050 schools, the vested ones, are going to get. 215 00:11:18,290 --> 00:11:21,450 They were willing to do that because it was more money than 216 00:11:21,450 --> 00:11:24,170 they were going to get if they had stuck with that PAC 12 Apple 217 00:11:24,170 --> 00:11:26,330 deal. So they were happy with that. 218 00:11:26,650 --> 00:11:29,530 If you try to throw two more schools in the mix, especially 219 00:11:29,530 --> 00:11:33,450 Stanford and Cal, who just do not move the needle for Fox or 220 00:11:33,450 --> 00:11:37,090 whoever's broadcasting the games, now you're taking food 221 00:11:37,090 --> 00:11:39,570 off the plate of everybody in the conference, so to speak. 222 00:11:39,570 --> 00:11:43,330 And so I really think yes, down the line, if the Big 10 wanted 223 00:11:43,330 --> 00:11:46,450 to add Stanford and Cal, they'd find a way to make it happen. 224 00:11:46,690 --> 00:11:49,850 But this kind of dovetails with the question we got from our. 225 00:11:51,610 --> 00:11:54,370 There's always the other side too, and I don't. 226 00:11:54,780 --> 00:11:56,540 Truly believe is we don't know what's going on. 227 00:11:56,540 --> 00:11:59,220 But there's a world where the Big 10 offered, you know this 228 00:11:59,220 --> 00:12:01,180 kind of half deal to Cal and Stanford. 229 00:12:01,180 --> 00:12:03,620 So if you're Washington, Oregon, it's like you got to be in a 230 00:12:03,620 --> 00:12:06,020 conference like you're they're not going to go independent. 231 00:12:06,020 --> 00:12:07,900 They've got, they want to be highlevel teams. 232 00:12:07,900 --> 00:12:09,820 They need to be in the Big 10 or the SCC. 233 00:12:10,100 --> 00:12:12,460 There is a world just throwing it out there. 234 00:12:12,460 --> 00:12:14,780 We're like maybe the Big 10 offers this or even like a 235 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:18,380 lesser deal like you know you get 25,000,000 and you know a 2% 236 00:12:18,380 --> 00:12:20,340 raise or whatever to Cal and Stanford. 237 00:12:20,340 --> 00:12:22,830 If you're Stanford, it's like. We're setting on more money than 238 00:12:22,830 --> 00:12:24,430 anybody in the cut. Like we're okay. 239 00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:28,670 Like we don't really need to be a top level football program. 240 00:12:29,070 --> 00:12:31,270 Maybe we'll just go independent for a couple years and see 241 00:12:31,270 --> 00:12:32,710 what's going on. There's a world where the big 242 00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:35,230 tech deal, they just looked at it and like we don't, you know, 243 00:12:35,630 --> 00:12:38,990 we don't need that deal either. So that's also a possibility 244 00:12:39,110 --> 00:12:42,150 that the last thing with Camper, Stanford and Cal for people of 245 00:12:42,190 --> 00:12:45,990 our age group that is odd or just is interesting is. 246 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,080 You know, I grew up watching all of these like Tim McCarver led 247 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,640 blooper reel videos from like you know, from like Sports 248 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,520 Illustrated and stuff. You get these videos and be 249 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,800 like, you know, the best 35 bloopers in college, you know, 250 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,480 in sports history and it was like the George Brett pine tar 251 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,640 incident was up there. And then there was always the 252 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,160 Cal Stanford game where, you know, again, I hate this. 253 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,760 Kids go back and watch it like the end of the game. 254 00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:11,870 Like Guy was a player for Cal, right? 255 00:13:11,870 --> 00:13:14,390 Like runs into the Stanford band and like hits the kid with the 256 00:13:14,390 --> 00:13:16,550 two button scores, a touchdown. Like knocks them over. 257 00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:19,470 And it was a huge deal. Like growing up that was like 258 00:13:19,630 --> 00:13:22,790 the craziest thing that ever happened in a huge football game 259 00:13:22,790 --> 00:13:25,910 like Cal Stanford big game. And it's it's no matter what 260 00:13:25,910 --> 00:13:28,550 happens. Like, it's like weird that that 261 00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:31,150 Cal Stanford game has already been way diminished, but it's 262 00:13:31,150 --> 00:13:34,070 going to turn into like the Army Navy game or it's just even the 263 00:13:34,070 --> 00:13:35,950 Army Navy game has more appeal now. 264 00:13:35,950 --> 00:13:39,110 Like this thing that was just, well, big deal for us growing 265 00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:40,790 up. That is just like a vestige of 266 00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:42,430 the past. I mean, John Elway was the 267 00:13:42,430 --> 00:13:44,470 starting quarterback for Stanford in that game. 268 00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:47,430 But I would, I would, I would pop the brakes on Stanford and 269 00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:52,710 Cal being at the end of of of any prominence because I think 270 00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:55,590 it's a better than average chance they might end up in the 271 00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:57,310 ACC. That's been the news that's 272 00:13:57,310 --> 00:14:00,230 popped up here lately is that there's mutual interest there 273 00:14:00,430 --> 00:14:02,950 and a lot of people are freaking out about it and we'll get to 274 00:14:02,950 --> 00:14:04,990 that in a second. The one thing I wanted to get to 275 00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:09,450 had a question from a Hooper Razzie on X, when will the 276 00:14:09,450 --> 00:14:12,410 networks run out of cash or is that even possible? 277 00:14:12,410 --> 00:14:14,690 And I think it actually dovetails with this particular 278 00:14:14,690 --> 00:14:16,650 question because I think the networks have already kind of 279 00:14:16,650 --> 00:14:19,770 run out of cash, at least what I would say, they haven't run out 280 00:14:19,770 --> 00:14:23,770 of cash, they've run out of like FU money. 281 00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:26,530 And that's the big difference here. 282 00:14:26,690 --> 00:14:29,990 You know, I think for a while it looked like the ceiling was 283 00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:32,990 limitless in terms of what you could do with repackaging 284 00:14:32,990 --> 00:14:36,470 college sports for a television audience. 285 00:14:36,830 --> 00:14:41,150 And that's what really drove the last huge round of realignment. 286 00:14:41,150 --> 00:14:46,030 That's that period from 2003 up until about 2014. 287 00:14:46,030 --> 00:14:48,230 You know, we're starting new television networks and we're 288 00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:51,790 we're, you know, we're merging new conferences and we're making 289 00:14:51,790 --> 00:14:56,430 a Super ACC and a Super Big 10 and a Super SEC and we almost 290 00:14:56,430 --> 00:14:59,960 made a Super PAC 12. That has really changed. 291 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,200 And so I think what you're seeing now like the reporting 292 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,480 around the Oregon and Washington moves is that once the Big 10 293 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,040 presidents decided that they indeed wanted to go through with 294 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,160 this, they went to Fox and they said, can you make the numbers 295 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,680 work? So we're not going to lose money 296 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,240 on it. And they were able to put 297 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,440 together an additional financial package that got Oregon and 298 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,120 Washington in the league. But I think the implication 299 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,640 there is that there wasn't money to put other teams in the 300 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,240 league, even if the presidents had wanted them. 301 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,720 And I honestly don't think they wanted Stanford and Cal, you 302 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,760 know, But that's I believe what we're looking at it. 303 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,200 As you look around college sports, there's still money out 304 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,720 there for the right brands. Notre Dame is probably going to 305 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,840 get somewhere between 60 and $70 million by themselves per year 306 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:47,920 from NBC. There's money for them. 307 00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:50,570 I think if something extraordinary happens with the 308 00:15:50,570 --> 00:15:54,450 ACC where it comes apart, there would be money put together for 309 00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:59,490 certain brands to join the Big 10 or join the SCCI. 310 00:15:59,490 --> 00:16:01,810 Don't think you're going to get money. 311 00:16:02,010 --> 00:16:04,170 In fact, we kind of saw it already like it was a news story 312 00:16:04,170 --> 00:16:08,330 yesterday that the four remaining PAC 12, I guess we 313 00:16:08,330 --> 00:16:12,170 call them the PAC 4 schools had all contacted the Big 12 and 314 00:16:12,170 --> 00:16:15,730 we're like, hey, we'd be very interested in joining. 315 00:16:15,970 --> 00:16:18,610 And the word out of the Big 12 was we're done. 316 00:16:18,650 --> 00:16:20,650 We're we're not going to do anything else. 317 00:16:21,050 --> 00:16:23,450 And that ultimately is a decision that's not being made 318 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:27,370 by the because look the the Big 12, no offense will let anybody 319 00:16:27,370 --> 00:16:30,090 in as long as they bring a good football stadium. 320 00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:34,410 That's the network partners, whether it's ESPN or Fox saying 321 00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:38,490 guys, there's not really enough money to add to essentially 322 00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:42,130 regional schools in the Northwest +2 largely academic 323 00:16:42,130 --> 00:16:44,730 institutions that haven't had success in football in a decade. 324 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:48,010 So that's I think what we're seeing with that. 325 00:16:48,010 --> 00:16:51,170 And so ultimately, we're going to see more and more of this 326 00:16:51,610 --> 00:16:54,910 where the networks don't have that much money. 327 00:16:54,910 --> 00:16:57,110 They still have some. They're going to make logical 328 00:16:57,110 --> 00:17:00,790 moves to get good inventory so that they can make more money on 329 00:17:00,790 --> 00:17:03,790 the back end. But I think the era of just 330 00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:08,109 everything moving all the time is probably close to an end 331 00:17:08,109 --> 00:17:10,750 because the media landscape and the financial landscape that 332 00:17:10,750 --> 00:17:14,550 surrounded it changed so much. Agree with that, although I 333 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:17,030 would, I would caveat this. I think there's a world where it 334 00:17:17,030 --> 00:17:19,990 happens again because yes, networks don't have the same 335 00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:22,980 amount of money. And partially because a lot of 336 00:17:22,980 --> 00:17:25,380 them have been throwing their money into creating their own 337 00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:29,020 streamers, which hasn't worked. But you know, I think two or 338 00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:31,940 three years ago everyone was kind of assuming like all right, 339 00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:34,060 you know, the, the Apple, Netflix, Amazon, those 340 00:17:34,060 --> 00:17:36,500 streamers, they are going to be the ones who are going to bid 341 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:38,900 crazy amounts. It hasn't happened yet. 342 00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:41,820 But part of that is because you know we went from a world of low 343 00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:45,660 interest rates and you know all of those streamers were getting, 344 00:17:45,860 --> 00:17:48,260 you know, they were getting viewed on Wall Street for 345 00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:51,060 subscribers and sub numbers and it didn't matter their profit. 346 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,660 Changed in the last two years, interest rates went up, they 347 00:17:53,660 --> 00:17:57,180 need profit. But I do think you saw Apple 348 00:17:57,420 --> 00:17:59,340 kind of they're starting to dip their toe in there. 349 00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:02,300 And then you know I I follow this on the side, but like 350 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:05,820 Netflix, you know they've started to change their model 351 00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:07,540 obviously when they're adding advertising on that. 352 00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:10,340 But their numbers, if you look at their last two Q earnings 353 00:18:10,340 --> 00:18:14,380 call, their numbers were insane where they are, every subscriber 354 00:18:14,380 --> 00:18:17,260 they add is like an extra 60% revenue boost. 355 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:20,460 Like they are actually now profitable as they add people. 356 00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:22,420 It just goes. Revenue side. 357 00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:25,580 So they have kind of weathered that storm gotten over the hump 358 00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:30,460 and I I do think there's a world where a real profitable Netflix, 359 00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:33,980 Apple and Amazon you know those players they end up saying at 360 00:18:33,980 --> 00:18:37,420 some point you know we want to get into live right sports, they 361 00:18:37,420 --> 00:18:40,540 start out bidding each other and you could see those numbers jump 362 00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:42,020 up again. We're just in kind of that weird 363 00:18:42,020 --> 00:18:45,460 spot where the networks don't have the funds, they don't have 364 00:18:45,460 --> 00:18:47,660 the landscape, their numbers are going down. 365 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:51,180 The streamers whose numbers are going up aren't quite ready to 366 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:53,180 to dive into live right sports yet. 367 00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:58,140 Oh yeah, that's that's the big aspect of this, that I think the 368 00:18:58,140 --> 00:19:02,660 PAC 12 especially, but a lot of other schools in college 369 00:19:02,660 --> 00:19:05,540 athletics have miscalculated because I do believe that they 370 00:19:05,540 --> 00:19:10,180 thought, Oh well, if the network TV door is closing, the the big 371 00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:13,660 company streaming stuff is going to be an even bigger golden 372 00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:15,500 door. And in fact, if you read a lot 373 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:18,460 of the reporting from the insiders in the PAC 12, that was 374 00:19:18,460 --> 00:19:20,660 the thing they were banking on. It's like, oh, not going to 375 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:22,420 matter. Amazon's going to come in and 376 00:19:22,420 --> 00:19:25,140 write us a $50 million check or Apple's going to write us a $50 377 00:19:25,140 --> 00:19:28,180 million check. Well, we know Apple was only 378 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:32,100 willing to write about a $24 million check to the PAC 12 379 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:34,220 score, PAC 10. I guess at that point when they 380 00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:37,790 wrote the deal and they were willing to do some extra with 381 00:19:37,790 --> 00:19:40,910 incentives based upon like already, you guys actually get 382 00:19:41,030 --> 00:19:43,910 your fans to subscribe. We talked about that a bunch on 383 00:19:43,910 --> 00:19:47,870 the previous podcast. There was a fascinating bit of 384 00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:51,150 of journalism that happened in the Sports Business Journal. 385 00:19:51,150 --> 00:19:53,510 I think it was John Orand this came out yesterday. 386 00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:56,350 I want to read a little bit of this because it answers some of 387 00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:59,260 the questions you're talking about, and some of this was 388 00:19:59,260 --> 00:20:00,540 stuff I didn't know before I read it. 389 00:20:00,540 --> 00:20:06,620 Yesterday, ESPN, Fox and CBS all put in last minute bids for 390 00:20:06,620 --> 00:20:10,420 packages of Big 12 games, but they all came in much, much 391 00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:12,220 lower than the conference wanted. 392 00:20:12,780 --> 00:20:15,300 And you know, they've kept waiting. 393 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:18,300 And that's why the Apple TV bid was finally presented last week 394 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:20,460 because that was the only thing that they had. 395 00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:22,460 So here were the packages that apparently were offered 396 00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:26,860 according to this story, Fox. Offered a bid for a package of 397 00:20:26,860 --> 00:20:32,540 13 total games, which would pay about 35 to $40 million a year 398 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:36,060 total, not per team total. So that's like with three to $4 399 00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:38,620 million a team and probably would have been distributed 400 00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:40,420 unevenly. That's what you would call, as 401 00:20:40,420 --> 00:20:42,860 the piece points out, the B package. 402 00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:46,260 Not the primary rights package, but like an ancillary thing that 403 00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:48,910 gets added to a deal. ESPN. 404 00:20:49,070 --> 00:20:50,670 I'm going to come back to ESPN in the second. 405 00:20:50,910 --> 00:20:54,510 CBS engaged with the PAC 12 over the last couple of weeks, but 406 00:20:54,510 --> 00:20:57,510 only put forward a bid for a handful of basketball games, 407 00:20:57,510 --> 00:21:00,510 about 5 in total. That's bad. 408 00:21:01,230 --> 00:21:03,790 You know, if all they're bidding on is 5 basketball games, you're 409 00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:08,470 in bad shape. Sources expected ESPN and Amazon 410 00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:11,830 to share the PAC. Twelve's a package, the primary 411 00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:15,470 rights package, but Amazon never submitted a bid. 412 00:21:15,870 --> 00:21:20,730 NBC never submitted a bid. ESPN, and this is probably the 413 00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:24,770 thing you know if you're If you're feeling sympathetic about 414 00:21:24,770 --> 00:21:28,930 the PAC 12, feel sympathetic for the athletes, Feel sympathetic 415 00:21:28,930 --> 00:21:31,130 for the coaches, feel sympathetic for the fans. 416 00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:34,650 Do not in any way, shape or form feel sympathy for the Conference 417 00:21:34,650 --> 00:21:39,770 commissioners or the presidents of the of the PAC12ESPN offered 418 00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:42,250 what is being termed a significant package to the 419 00:21:42,250 --> 00:21:46,050 conference more than a year ago, and the Conference University 420 00:21:46,050 --> 00:21:50,290 presidents rejected it. ESPN then turned around and cut 421 00:21:50,290 --> 00:21:53,770 a deal with the Big 12. But the offer that they ended up 422 00:21:53,770 --> 00:21:56,250 giving in the last couple of weeks to the PAC 12, according 423 00:21:56,250 --> 00:22:00,610 to this piece, was only a small bid for overall PAC 12 rights. 424 00:22:00,610 --> 00:22:04,090 And so you know this. It's one of those things where I 425 00:22:04,090 --> 00:22:06,570 think everybody is always in such a rush to figure out, like, 426 00:22:06,570 --> 00:22:08,930 what narrative do I need to attach myself to. 427 00:22:08,930 --> 00:22:11,450 And, you know, one of the big narratives is money and networks 428 00:22:11,450 --> 00:22:14,400 are ruining college sports. And it's like and and then, but 429 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,160 then there's the other narrative, which was touched on 430 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,120 by a couple of people. It's like the money's all run 431 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:20,800 out and it's like, well, neither of those narratives is 432 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,920 necessarily true because the the networks were interested in 433 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,880 doing a deal. The PAC 12, as it's done over 434 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,640 the course of really the entire last 13 years, just constantly 435 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,760 decided to shoot itself in the private parts at every single 436 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,920 possible opportunity, every. And you can go through the list. 437 00:22:39,410 --> 00:22:42,170 The PAC 12 had so many opportunities to put themselves 438 00:22:42,170 --> 00:22:44,970 in a favorable commercial position, maybe not at the same 439 00:22:44,970 --> 00:22:49,290 level as the Big 10 in the SEC, but certainly in just as 440 00:22:49,290 --> 00:22:52,810 favorable, if not more so a position than the ACC in the Big 441 00:22:52,810 --> 00:22:56,490 12. And they were so convinced that 442 00:22:56,490 --> 00:23:00,530 they were above that that they rejected things left and right 443 00:23:00,530 --> 00:23:04,210 because they were convinced that a white knight with the Amazon 444 00:23:04,210 --> 00:23:07,640 logo on its chest was going to come riding through the door on 445 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,800 a horse made of cardboard boxes and give them each a $50 million 446 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,200 check. When they walked in to Network 447 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,320 Partner Opportunities a few years earlier. 448 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,160 And they were looking for the the deal renewal, they walked in 449 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,960 and they were like, we want at least $50 million at school. 450 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,800 And, you know, from all accounts, the network execs 451 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,360 looked at that and like, people are crazy. 452 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,480 There's no way. And, you know, so there's 453 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,490 clearly some money. And it's also clear that the 454 00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:36,090 networks are being a little more circumspect, a little more 455 00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:38,650 cautious about this than people are giving them credit for. 456 00:23:39,010 --> 00:23:41,730 But that doesn't fit a lot of the narratives that we've seen 457 00:23:41,730 --> 00:23:44,650 spewed around on this. It's hard not to look at all of 458 00:23:44,650 --> 00:23:48,650 this when you see the reporting and say to yourself, gosh, the 459 00:23:48,650 --> 00:23:51,730 PAC 12 screwed itself. And there were plenty of 460 00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:53,610 opportunities for this not to be the outcome. 461 00:23:53,610 --> 00:23:55,770 And they ignored every single warning along the way. 462 00:23:56,010 --> 00:23:58,930 And there's just not going to be that much money coming out of 463 00:23:58,930 --> 00:24:02,830 streamers because Apple, Amazon, Netflix, they're getting like, 464 00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:05,430 absolutely destroyed on the stock market right now. 465 00:24:05,790 --> 00:24:08,190 They're looking at this and they're like, is live sports 466 00:24:08,190 --> 00:24:11,470 television really a business we want to get into at this point 467 00:24:11,470 --> 00:24:14,590 in any scale? The thing with the streamers is, 468 00:24:14,910 --> 00:24:17,110 and they I mean Netflix has actually come way back. 469 00:24:17,110 --> 00:24:20,070 Like they are looking good from a wall, Wall Street perspective. 470 00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:23,150 Here's the thing with the streamers that I've always been 471 00:24:23,150 --> 00:24:26,670 dubious of with them getting deep into sports is. 472 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:30,360 Sports is a live rights. You are renting the sports. 473 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:33,440 So ESPN has put itself in a spot where they just don't have any 474 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,200 original program. They just they rent sports and 475 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,640 that's what they do. If you look at the history of 476 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,680 Netflix, Amazon, Apple, like Netflix, has spent the last 15 477 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,400 years doing everything it can to own. 478 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,040 Everything that it puts out there, it is owned, produced and 479 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,280 made by Netflix. That's partially why there's a 480 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,120 lot of is that they don't pay residuals. 481 00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,000 Like that's why there's strikes right now with the actors and 482 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,200 the writers you look at you know Amazon, they they only promote 483 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,480 their own stuff. Apple TV. 484 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,040 The only thing on Apple TV services are their own shows, 485 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,680 things that they make. You know, Disney, they bought 486 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,720 Lucas Films, they bought Marvel because they want to own those 487 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,680 properties and own their own stuff. 488 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:13,890 So. This is where I look at it. 489 00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:16,410 It's like, if you're Netflix, your entire business model is 490 00:25:16,450 --> 00:25:19,330 how do we make stuff that is Netflix produced and made Like 491 00:25:19,330 --> 00:25:21,170 they're tired of renting other shows. 492 00:25:21,810 --> 00:25:26,170 Do they want to spend a huge chunk of money to rent and, you 493 00:25:26,170 --> 00:25:29,170 know, to to rent Big 10 game, rent anything, any sport? 494 00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:31,370 And then it's like they're going to build a bunch of shows around 495 00:25:31,370 --> 00:25:34,010 it, and then five years from now they lose all of that stuff like 496 00:25:34,010 --> 00:25:36,700 this is. In no respect any way any of 497 00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:39,860 these streamers has ever viewed content for them. 498 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,220 They would much. You know, I've read I've heard 499 00:25:42,220 --> 00:25:44,900 this other places is a little bit crazy and it's like not 500 00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:48,420 realistic, but it's like Netflix or Apple would be more 501 00:25:48,420 --> 00:25:51,600 interested in just. Buying the NFL, like instead of 502 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,800 buying the rights like we'll just buy it and then we'll own, 503 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,040 you know, we'll own the Big 10. Like they'd much rather do that. 504 00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:59,880 So that that's the thing with the streamers. 505 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,520 I do think it's and it's like that's where the PAC 12 also 506 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,160 miscalculated. It's just to think that they're 507 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,560 going to Apple and Amazon's going to come in with a higher 508 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,600 number. It's like this is really, this 509 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,880 is not what streamers do and it's not the business they're 510 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,320 in. They're in the business of 511 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,120 creating their own content, like they might have just bought the 512 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:19,210 PAC 12. But they weren't going to give 513 00:26:19,210 --> 00:26:21,490 you a higher number than legacy media companies. 514 00:26:21,490 --> 00:26:24,130 And again, legacy media companies have their own issues. 515 00:26:24,130 --> 00:26:27,170 And so anyway, that's that's where I look at streamers. 516 00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:29,330 And like, they're probably not the white knight who's going to 517 00:26:29,330 --> 00:26:31,690 push the money even higher. Yeah, absolutely. 518 00:26:31,730 --> 00:26:34,290 And that's, I think, a hard lesson. 519 00:26:34,290 --> 00:26:38,850 And again, it didn't have to end up this way for the PAC 12. 520 00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:42,590 They mismanage the situation. So it's like I think you can be 521 00:26:42,590 --> 00:26:45,630 concerned about what you, not you, but like the the audience 522 00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:48,950 member can be concerned about how they perceive college sports 523 00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:51,710 to be going. But I would really caution 524 00:26:51,710 --> 00:26:54,950 people about acting like college sports is being killed from the 525 00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:59,110 outside when at least in the PAC Twelve's case, the calls were 526 00:26:59,110 --> 00:27:00,990 absolutely coming from the inside of the house. 527 00:27:01,270 --> 00:27:04,630 And that's that's a real problem when you think about it. 528 00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:07,750 Let's talk about a couple other things in this vein before we 529 00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:10,640 get to some questions. So one of the things I've been 530 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,440 mentioning and I I put this to you in our show notes 531 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,080 beforehand. I've seen a lot of complaints 532 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,880 about academic related conferences or athletic 533 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,920 conferences like not making a lot of sense geographically. 534 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,680 Like in most people's minds, the Big 10 is a Midwest conference, 535 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:33,240 The ACC is an Atlantic Coast Conference that may just be 536 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,960 getting ready to add Stanford and Cal. 537 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,040 The SEC clearly is in the Southeast. 538 00:27:37,890 --> 00:27:41,290 The Big 12 I guess is in the plains States and the PAC 12 is 539 00:27:41,290 --> 00:27:42,570 the West. And it's very difficult for 540 00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:44,410 people to get their heads wrapped around the idea that 541 00:27:45,010 --> 00:27:47,570 their geographical predispositions of where things 542 00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:49,170 are supposed to be might not match. 543 00:27:50,170 --> 00:27:53,770 I really would advise people, and you may not want to do this, 544 00:27:53,770 --> 00:27:56,330 so you could take my advice and and decide to ignore it. 545 00:27:56,330 --> 00:27:58,730 By all means. You have to stop thinking about 546 00:27:58,730 --> 00:28:02,330 these conferences in this way. I agree it doesn't make a whole 547 00:28:02,330 --> 00:28:06,170 lot of sense to have four West Coast schools in the artist 548 00:28:06,470 --> 00:28:11,030 still known as the Big 10. But if you, if you, if you 549 00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:16,070 unhinge the idea that the Big 10 has to be a Midwestern based 550 00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:19,990 university conference and you look at it instead as one of the 551 00:28:19,990 --> 00:28:23,910 two leading college sports brands that has a national 552 00:28:23,910 --> 00:28:27,750 footprint and it tries to bring together not all of the best 553 00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:31,710 brands but most of the best brands to play particularly 554 00:28:31,710 --> 00:28:33,430 college football but also other sports. 555 00:28:34,110 --> 00:28:36,470 I mean I just think it's a more realistic way of looking at it. 556 00:28:36,750 --> 00:28:40,310 And I honestly like as much as I am sympathetic to some degree to 557 00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:42,870 the argument that we need to keep these things more 558 00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:44,870 geographical. It's like where were these 559 00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:48,550 complaints A decade ago? I mean we've got, you know, ACC 560 00:28:48,550 --> 00:28:53,110 schools in, you know, in SEC territory and in the Northeast 561 00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:56,230 but also inland a bit. We've got, you know, the Big 10 562 00:28:56,350 --> 00:28:59,550 stretches from New Jersey to Nebraska that was even, you 563 00:28:59,550 --> 00:29:02,430 know, and that was, you know, before they added the California 564 00:29:02,430 --> 00:29:04,310 schools and the Pacific Northwest schools. 565 00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:07,550 The Big Twelve's got a school in West Virginia. 566 00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:11,710 You know, I mean, it's it hasn't made geographical sense for a 567 00:29:11,710 --> 00:29:17,350 long while. And I think, you know, at least 568 00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:21,550 to some degree, I'm, I'm just tired of seeing people arguing 569 00:29:21,550 --> 00:29:25,150 for a system that only made geographical sense like 40 years 570 00:29:25,150 --> 00:29:29,120 ago and it's gradually had to change because of the economic 571 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,560 realities of high level college sports. 572 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,320 You've lived in that system for a while and I get that this is 573 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,800 kind of beyond the pale, but it also feels like, you know, fans, 574 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,920 you can be mad about it. You can be like, I'm not going 575 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,040 to pay attention to college sports, but if you're not, you 576 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,720 kind of got to let that part of it go because there's just 577 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,180 clearly been an economic stratification where a couple of 578 00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:53,340 brands, in particular, the Big 10 and the SEC, have just 579 00:29:53,340 --> 00:29:55,980 completely lapped the field because they've been smarter 580 00:29:55,980 --> 00:29:59,300 business wise over a longer period of time. 581 00:29:59,660 --> 00:30:02,540 It probably isn't going to be very beneficial to get mad about 582 00:30:02,540 --> 00:30:05,700 that moving forward that you might have schools from outside 583 00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:09,780 the Midwest in the Big 10. So you said something, we talked 584 00:30:09,780 --> 00:30:12,100 on the phone a couple days ago that that kind of hits this 585 00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:13,210 point. Was you. 586 00:30:13,210 --> 00:30:15,290 You were like, just think of it like, you know that the end of 587 00:30:15,290 --> 00:30:17,570 the PAC 12 was no different than like the end of Johnson and 588 00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:20,250 Johnson or just some corporation that goes down. 589 00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:23,050 And, you know, I was thinking about that. 590 00:30:23,050 --> 00:30:23,890 And. And you're right. 591 00:30:23,890 --> 00:30:27,130 And in this respect, it's very similar to, like, pick on Amazon 592 00:30:27,130 --> 00:30:28,690 again. But, you know, you and I have 593 00:30:28,690 --> 00:30:30,010 lived through the growth of Amazon. 594 00:30:30,010 --> 00:30:32,330 Like Amazon, you should just be a place you'd go to buy books. 595 00:30:32,330 --> 00:30:34,490 And it's like, oh, you can buy toilet paper on Amazon. 596 00:30:34,490 --> 00:30:37,810 And now it's like if you would have told me in, you know, 1997, 597 00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:40,490 it's like you're going to get to watch Thursday Night Football 598 00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:41,730 games on Amazon. I'd be like. 599 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,600 Like why not Barnes and Noble, what are you talking about? 600 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,320 Like they sell books, but like it has evolved and that would 601 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,840 have something totally different. 602 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,960 You know Apple sells phones but also has a TV network. 603 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,200 Like the companies can grow and change and sometimes they do it 604 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,120 well, sometimes they, you know, they they make mistakes and they 605 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,040 stay, they go out of business and they don't do it. 606 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,600 But I think looking at it from the corporation point of view 607 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,400 kind of makes sense and it's just like the Big 10 is like 608 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,840 Amazon and it is just offering different things in different 609 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,040 areas that the thing that I would say. 610 00:31:11,740 --> 00:31:15,500 From your last pod with Zach, you barely touched on this, but 611 00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:18,140 just an idea. You know, no one's listening to 612 00:31:18,140 --> 00:31:21,380 to me, but it's like we're almost at a point where, you 613 00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:24,740 know, the people that I feel bad for are, you know, basketball 614 00:31:24,740 --> 00:31:26,060 and football. Everybody's like, oh, you're the 615 00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:27,700 travel. It's like basketball, football 616 00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:29,900 are going to be fine. Like they they have, they are 617 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,540 the ones that generate the revenue, like they are going to 618 00:31:32,540 --> 00:31:34,420 be catered to when it comes to travel. 619 00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:37,860 I do feel bad for like, you know, the the, the baseball 620 00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:40,140 teams, the lacrosse teams at the low level sports. 621 00:31:40,540 --> 00:31:43,660 There is a world where maybe it just makes sense, you know, 622 00:31:43,660 --> 00:31:45,980 again, because no one's in charge, like no one's still 623 00:31:46,340 --> 00:31:48,860 doing those things. Maybe you just say, hey, the Big 624 00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:52,060 10 in football and basketball are these schools. 625 00:31:52,260 --> 00:31:55,180 But like for all the other sports we're just going to play 626 00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:56,820 a regional group. Like we're just going to have 627 00:31:56,820 --> 00:32:00,300 like Indiana's going to play you know the old Big 10 or the OG 628 00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:03,660 Big 10 in all of the other non revenue producing sports. 629 00:32:03,970 --> 00:32:05,890 And you kind of have like what Notre Dame has where they're 630 00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:07,890 just like we're playing football over here and all the other 631 00:32:07,890 --> 00:32:10,330 sports are playing over there. And there's a world where like 632 00:32:10,450 --> 00:32:13,330 because it it is absurd to think like, you know, the women's, you 633 00:32:13,330 --> 00:32:16,130 know, field hockey team, you know, low level sports, they're 634 00:32:16,130 --> 00:32:18,770 just not, you know, softball, they're not revenue producing 635 00:32:18,770 --> 00:32:20,930 like they're going to get screwed on some of these travel 636 00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:22,570 pieces. And so maybe there is a world 637 00:32:22,570 --> 00:32:25,570 where you just like we're going to pull men's basketball and 638 00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:28,290 football out. These are going to be in what we 639 00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:30,930 call these TV conferences and then everything else will play 640 00:32:30,930 --> 00:32:34,440 kind of geographically. I get that argument. 641 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,000 There's a couple of things that make it kind of not possible. 642 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,720 And also and also from my perspective not as important, I 643 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,120 mean here. So let me let me put it this 644 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,960 way, A, I was love Notre Dame being brought up as this. 645 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,480 As an example of this, Notre Dame flies their nonrevenue 646 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,280 sports teams to Miami. They fly them to Tallahassee, 647 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,600 they fly them to Atlanta, they fly them to Clemson. 648 00:32:59,010 --> 00:33:01,370 I don't know if you guys have looked on a map, but those are 649 00:33:01,770 --> 00:33:05,610 pretty far away in terms of of geography and just trying to get 650 00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:06,890 that. You're trying to fly to Clemson, 651 00:33:07,450 --> 00:33:12,130 Scott, not not the easiest place to get into necessarily if 652 00:33:12,130 --> 00:33:13,570 you're flying commercial especially. 653 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:19,770 So I I get the idea in theory, but realistically nobody's 654 00:33:19,770 --> 00:33:22,490 really been concerned. At least very few people on the 655 00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:24,770 national stage have been concerned about this regional 656 00:33:24,770 --> 00:33:27,920 issue. And we've had teams that fly 657 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,280 everywhere. You know, we've got I U, we're 658 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,400 in Indiana, I U as a water polo varsity team and I love it. 659 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,600 They're they're always ranked in the top 25. 660 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:39,760 Look at the teams in their conference. 661 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,840 They're all in California. They fly out there on a regular 662 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,320 basis. All the players are from 663 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,760 California. You can look at baseball across 664 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,160 the country. If you are located north of the 665 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,680 Ohio River, you spend the first two months of your season in the 666 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,200 South or in the West playing games on the road at with with 667 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,080 travel that absolutely runs right into what you're doing in 668 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,760 the classroom and and absolutely gives an incredible, you know, 669 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,239 advantage to the schools that are in the South and the West. 670 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,639 NCAA is allowed that for decades nobody's cared. 671 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,040 So while I understand the argument, I think the travel 672 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,520 thing is pretty overblown. And it even at the major level, 673 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,060 like I see all these like, oh gosh, now Oregon's student 674 00:34:23,060 --> 00:34:26,100 athletes have to fly to Rutgers in Maryland regularly. 675 00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:28,580 And I'm like, you know how often they're likely going to play at 676 00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:31,219 Rutgers? But once every six to eight 677 00:34:31,219 --> 00:34:33,300 years, you know how often they're going to play at 678 00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:35,060 Maryland? About once every six to eight 679 00:34:35,060 --> 00:34:36,340 years. They may do them in the same 680 00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:38,980 weekend once every six to eight years. 681 00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:41,739 That's to me a little bit overblown. 682 00:34:42,540 --> 00:34:47,580 It does stink I think for for some of the smaller, you know, 683 00:34:47,739 --> 00:34:51,219 the the the you know, smaller budget athletic programs. 684 00:34:51,219 --> 00:34:55,739 But I also think the other issue here is that the way that 685 00:34:55,739 --> 00:34:58,540 colleges and universities have packaged their athletic 686 00:34:58,540 --> 00:35:01,780 programs, that's all television inventory, it's streaming 687 00:35:01,780 --> 00:35:05,500 inventory that's all being sold. It's not like those are 688 00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:08,020 unfortunate throwins. Those are considered to be 689 00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:11,460 inventory that the networks are buying when they're buying the 690 00:35:11,460 --> 00:35:13,340 rights for the football and basketball. 691 00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:17,460 I don't think that that's good. I've long been a proponent of 692 00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:21,010 why don't we keep our Olympic sports in a more regional 693 00:35:21,010 --> 00:35:23,490 environment when you can like it wouldn't really be something 694 00:35:23,490 --> 00:35:26,130 that water polo could do because there are no Regional Water polo 695 00:35:26,130 --> 00:35:29,010 schools. But so I would I would support 696 00:35:29,010 --> 00:35:31,810 that but the chances of that happening are almost nonexistent 697 00:35:32,050 --> 00:35:36,210 because you know a on the flip side it's like well we need 698 00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:38,850 those on TV. Well, it's going to be hard for 699 00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:42,490 look like if Illinois is playing Western Illinois and Eastern 700 00:35:42,490 --> 00:35:46,330 Illinois and Northwestern, that's not going to work from a 701 00:35:46,330 --> 00:35:48,450 TV perspective. And if the whole idea is, gosh, 702 00:35:48,450 --> 00:35:51,530 we need to like women's soccer at the college level needs to be 703 00:35:51,530 --> 00:35:54,530 more prominent, volleyball needs to be more prominent, you're 704 00:35:54,530 --> 00:35:57,850 going to only get that through connecting brands with brands. 705 00:35:58,170 --> 00:36:01,530 So to some degree, I think that's almost an unworkable 706 00:36:01,530 --> 00:36:04,250 scenario because I don't think you're going to get a situation 707 00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:07,270 where, Oh yeah, we're going to have a conference for football 708 00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:09,390 and then a conference for everything else. 709 00:36:10,070 --> 00:36:13,030 It doesn't work the way that things are being run right now. 710 00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:16,990 And it's a little, it's unfortunate, yes, but it's it 711 00:36:16,990 --> 00:36:20,870 also may all be moot because I think down the line, and this is 712 00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:24,070 it's this is the thing that kind of hangs over this conversation 713 00:36:24,510 --> 00:36:27,350 any and it rarely is getting talked about right now. 714 00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:33,290 There's a nonzero chance that in five years a lot of these sports 715 00:36:33,330 --> 00:36:36,010 won't be varsity sports at a lot of these colleges and 716 00:36:36,010 --> 00:36:40,890 universities because of the fact that the moment that that, you 717 00:36:40,890 --> 00:36:43,610 know, the National Labor Relations Board or Congress 718 00:36:43,970 --> 00:36:47,410 declares that these are actually employees as opposed to student 719 00:36:47,410 --> 00:36:50,330 athletes, a lot of that's going to drop down to the club level. 720 00:36:50,330 --> 00:36:52,370 And I think that will fundamentally alter a bunch of 721 00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:53,490 things. And so that's going to be really 722 00:36:53,490 --> 00:36:56,730 interesting to watch. Before we get to questions, I 723 00:36:56,730 --> 00:36:59,690 have two just as a you are a media professor. 724 00:36:59,690 --> 00:37:01,460 I just. If I was in your class I would 725 00:37:01,460 --> 00:37:03,780 bring these up as I think they're they're interesting 726 00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:06,860 contradictions that I I'm hearing in the media and I would 727 00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:10,660 also say I've been guilty of probably within this podcast and 728 00:37:10,660 --> 00:37:13,700 I think you I don't want to blame you but maybe the royal we 729 00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:16,300 we've been guilty of these but I do I just throw it out there and 730 00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:19,140 it's kind of more you know an FYI but I think it's interesting 731 00:37:20,140 --> 00:37:23,060 you know on one hand we all we're talking about you know the 732 00:37:23,060 --> 00:37:26,460 death of the the cable bundle the media landscape has changed 733 00:37:26,740 --> 00:37:29,500 and as we talk it's like you know there's no longer which by 734 00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:31,550 the way. Side note like the medium 735 00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:33,790 everyone your cables dying. It's like it kind of is. 736 00:37:33,790 --> 00:37:36,150 But it's like there's also YouTube TV and Hulu which are 737 00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:38,350 based because digital cable. So it's not totally dying. 738 00:37:38,350 --> 00:37:39,550 There's still carriage fees anyway. 739 00:37:40,070 --> 00:37:42,750 You know that media markets don't really matter anymore like 740 00:37:42,750 --> 00:37:44,750 you know Rutgers to get the New York market like it really 741 00:37:44,750 --> 00:37:48,950 doesn't matter to get those markets anymore And yet like 2-2 742 00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:51,190 minutes later I he'll somebody say but you know but the Big 10 743 00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:52,910 is getting the Seattle market and that's really good. 744 00:37:52,910 --> 00:37:54,870 It's like it is. It's funny that we talk about 745 00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:56,390 how the media markets don't matter. 746 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,200 And then we talk about how like, oh, it's like really good. 747 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,560 The Big Ten's getting Seattle and you know, the Big 12 is 748 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,760 getting the Phoenix market for for growth. 749 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,160 And so I find that that interesting. 750 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,200 The other contradiction is something you and I have talked 751 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,080 about, you know, just kind of joking and like, you know what 752 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,800 if teams are getting relegated and as you brought up, it's 753 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,150 like, you know? Nobody wants to have a power 754 00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:19,790 conference. If you're Ohio State, you don't 755 00:38:19,790 --> 00:38:22,790 want to play the best teams all the time, which makes sense. 756 00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:26,190 You need some, you know, semi easy games even within your 757 00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:28,830 conference, which I agree with and that's true. 758 00:38:28,830 --> 00:38:32,190 But that it is also funny that it's like the reason we didn't 759 00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:34,830 bring Washington State and Oregon State is because they 760 00:38:34,830 --> 00:38:36,870 suck in football and it's like we want to get better teams. 761 00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:39,630 Like all of this is always about getting better teams. 762 00:38:39,870 --> 00:38:42,550 And in a way they are like on one hand it's like we don't want 763 00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:44,310 super conferences, but then it's like well. 764 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,280 Then why didn't we go for Oregon State or Cal and Stanford? 765 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,200 It's like, well, because they suck in football, so we're only 766 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,360 getting the best team. So it is. 767 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,400 It's an interesting contradiction, at least that I 768 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,160 see. Well, I don't. 769 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:55,960 I don't think that's why they didn't want Washington State in 770 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,640 Oregon State. They don't Washington State in 771 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,040 Oregon State. Not because they suck at 772 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,240 football, because they both been better than not just I you, but 773 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:04,560 they've been better than Northwestern. 774 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,120 They've been better than Purdue. They didn't get them because 775 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,600 they don't have a market attached to them. 776 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,240 They're just they don't. I mean they and it's weird 777 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:16,600 because like Washington State does okay in in games in terms 778 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,400 of like television ratings, but that's generally because they're 779 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,880 playing teams that people want to see. 780 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,880 And so these two questions end up kind of dovetailing with each 781 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,360 other. And so let me go back to the 782 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,120 first one, which is the market situation. 783 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,760 Markets aren't. They're not irrelevant, but 784 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:40,400 they're not as relevant as they were when cable networks, 785 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,560 whether it was ESPN or Big 10 Network or SEC Network, we're 786 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:50,080 trying to secure carriage fees and monthly subscriber money 787 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,720 that would come from the cable companies or the satellite 788 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:54,880 companies to have those things on television. 789 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,000 And so when you think about it, like that still exists. 790 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,400 It's not like nobody subscribes to cable or YouTube TV, but it's 791 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,400 about 50 million people, 40 to 50 million people fewer now that 792 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,080 subscribe to those things than there were a decade ago. 793 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,720 That's a pretty big loss. And you know, not to. 794 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,440 I do a whole lecture on this in in class, so I'm not going to do 795 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,360 it here. But the Cliff Notes version is 796 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,480 one of the things that fueled ESPN being able to buy all the 797 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,160 media rights. And play Kingmaker in college 798 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,920 sports was the fact that they had two separate huge revenue 799 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,720 streams for a couple of decades. One was subscriber fees and the 800 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:32,360 other was advertising. Well, they can still survive on 801 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,400 the advertising and a reduced number of fees, and they've 802 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,560 tried to convert people more to subscribing to ESPN Plus, which 803 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,040 isn't going to pay them nearly as much money, but it's going to 804 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,120 give them $100 a year out of those people. 805 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,430 It's just not going to be as many because there was a bunch 806 00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:49,150 of people that were paying $7.00 a month to ESPN that never 807 00:40:49,150 --> 00:40:52,590 watched ESPN because it was tied into the local cable bundle. 808 00:40:53,310 --> 00:40:55,750 You take that and you apply it to the schools. 809 00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:59,390 The problem is ultimately for schools like Washington State, 810 00:40:59,510 --> 00:41:03,190 Oregon State, a lot of the other thing, a lot of the other 811 00:41:03,190 --> 00:41:07,550 schools that are kind of in that mix, they just don't have enough 812 00:41:07,550 --> 00:41:12,920 people who are going to subscribe to an ESPN Plus or an 813 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:18,120 Apple TV or whatever to make it worth the while of the 814 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,440 conferences and the networks that are going to be working 815 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,000 with them or the streamers where it's going to generate enough 816 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,680 revenue that everybody can get paid. 817 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,640 And so when you look at Washington State, it's like from 818 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,520 a competitive perspective, you know, they wouldn't have been 819 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,280 any worse or better of an addition. 820 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,160 They would have probably a better addition than like 821 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,930 Maryland and Rutgers just because they're they're more 822 00:41:37,930 --> 00:41:40,810 isolated that you know, they they've had individual successes 823 00:41:40,810 --> 00:41:44,450 at times, but the problem is that they just don't bring 824 00:41:44,450 --> 00:41:47,690 enough people to the table. And this is actually the issue 825 00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:49,610 with Stanford and Cal. I mean, Stanford and Cal both 826 00:41:49,610 --> 00:41:51,650 have a lot of alums, a lot, and don't particularly care enough 827 00:41:51,650 --> 00:41:54,810 about football or their other sports that they're willing to 828 00:41:54,810 --> 00:41:57,250 fork over X amount of dollars a year. 829 00:41:57,690 --> 00:42:01,170 You know, So you think about like, MLS is a great example. 830 00:42:01,170 --> 00:42:05,240 Despite not being a college sports league, MLS recently 831 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,240 signed a deal with Apple, which was pretty controversial. 832 00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:11,760 And I had certainly me and a bunch of other people kind of 833 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,960 curious how it was going to work out because they signed this 834 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,160 deal with Apple and it's largely like most of the games are just 835 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,080 on Apple, which means you have to subscribe to the MLS package 836 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,080 on Apple, which is $100 a year. And everybody was like, is MLS 837 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,660 really popular enough that they're going to be able to 838 00:42:28,660 --> 00:42:32,300 bring in enough subscribers to pay all of their teams, enough 839 00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,460 to go and be competitive in the marketplace for signing players? 840 00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:37,620 Well, what did MLS do this year, Scott? 841 00:42:37,820 --> 00:42:41,820 They go out and sign the most popular player in the world and 842 00:42:42,450 --> 00:42:45,250 suddenly, you know, ticket prices go through the roof and a 843 00:42:45,250 --> 00:42:49,650 bunch of people halfway through the season have dropped $100 to 844 00:42:49,650 --> 00:42:52,370 watch half of the MLS season because they're going to get to 845 00:42:52,370 --> 00:42:55,810 see Leonel Messi play soccer. College sports can't do that. 846 00:42:55,810 --> 00:42:58,530 Like, the Washington state right now is not going to be able to 847 00:42:58,530 --> 00:43:01,570 go and get a top player to goose their subscriptions. 848 00:43:01,570 --> 00:43:06,290 And so you know, look there's there's some level of luck 849 00:43:06,290 --> 00:43:10,340 involved in this, but there's also and it's kind of it, it 850 00:43:10,540 --> 00:43:12,980 crosses over with some I U related stuff that we'll talk 851 00:43:12,980 --> 00:43:15,340 about. Like if you're already in the 852 00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:19,300 club and you're at school like I U that has like the the second 853 00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:24,060 largest living alumni base in the country, that's a lot of 854 00:43:24,060 --> 00:43:26,580 potential subscribers. If you're a school like 855 00:43:26,580 --> 00:43:29,420 Washington State, that's, you know, it's a, it's a small, I 856 00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:32,500 think it's a land grad institution, it's agriculturally 857 00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,300 focused. You just don't have that many 858 00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:38,540 people who are going to add money to the pie and that's 859 00:43:38,540 --> 00:43:40,140 ultimately what these conferences are trying to put 860 00:43:40,140 --> 00:43:42,020 together. So that's really kind of a it's 861 00:43:42,020 --> 00:43:45,380 a twisty answer, but it winds its way through some of the 862 00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:47,780 things that affect the decision making process. 863 00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:50,170 Yep. No, that's that's, that's why I 864 00:43:50,170 --> 00:43:51,330 asked you. That's a good answer. 865 00:43:51,330 --> 00:43:53,010 No. And you and I mean I think most 866 00:43:53,010 --> 00:43:56,410 people know this, but like that was the secret sauce for not 867 00:43:56,410 --> 00:44:01,170 only ESPN but a lot of these kind of legacy media brands was 868 00:44:01,530 --> 00:44:03,770 they had the best. And I've been listening to a lot 869 00:44:03,770 --> 00:44:05,890 of pods about like you know, the death of, you know, streamers 870 00:44:05,890 --> 00:44:08,370 and all this. It's like in the 90s and the 871 00:44:08,370 --> 00:44:12,890 2000s, you know, normal profit for a business is like 10 to 20% 872 00:44:12,890 --> 00:44:15,250 is really good. You know, ESPN have like a 40 to 873 00:44:15,250 --> 00:44:19,050 45% profit margin most of these. You know, companies that were, 874 00:44:19,050 --> 00:44:22,730 you know, the the cable type companies were in that profit 875 00:44:22,730 --> 00:44:25,570 margin because a lot of the people you were selling to were 876 00:44:25,570 --> 00:44:27,610 not using your product. It doesn't matter if you were 877 00:44:27,610 --> 00:44:29,210 watching or not, but it's like that. 878 00:44:29,210 --> 00:44:31,530 The line was always, you know, like your grandmother pays $8 a 879 00:44:31,530 --> 00:44:33,290 month watching. It's for for ESPN. 880 00:44:33,450 --> 00:44:35,170 They never watched. It's like everybody who signed 881 00:44:35,170 --> 00:44:38,130 up for cable was paying nine or 10 bucks for ESPN. 882 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,640 And they're paying, you know $3 for lifetime is you were just 883 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,840 like everybody was paying for everything. 884 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,640 And it was whether you used it or not, it became like the best 885 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,040 deal for 20 years because everyone you had to pay for it, 886 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,160 whether you used it or not. And so it's like that's the best 887 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,920 thing in business is selling something that nobody needs or 888 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,200 wants. It doesn't matter whether they 889 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:56,680 use it. You don't have to make more of 890 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,680 it. And and now like that is where 891 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,840 this is changing, is that it's like you like you said, it's 892 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,440 like you have to now kind of pick and choose what you pay 893 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,080 for. But anyway, Well and look. 894 00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:08,240 And from a college athletics perspective, look, there's 895 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,080 certain brands that are in better shape than others. 896 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,040 And I think you know, we right now, we're going through this 897 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,440 with these PAC 12 schools and you've seen who the winners and 898 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,000 losers are. UUSC&UCLA were never going to 899 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,280 struggle to find a home. Oregon and Washington, if they 900 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,160 had thrown themselves open and it had been an open bidding 901 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,430 process, you know, who knows, maybe ESPN would have said yes, 902 00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:34,830 we'll pay extra or we'll give a full share to Oregon and 903 00:45:34,830 --> 00:45:39,190 Washington to join the Big 12 so that they don't join the Big 10 904 00:45:39,310 --> 00:45:43,630 because that strengthens Fox. But Oregon and Washington I 905 00:45:43,630 --> 00:45:45,390 think had kind of a behind the scenes. 906 00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:50,630 They've been vetted already in the last round of realignment by 907 00:45:50,630 --> 00:45:52,870 the Big 10. So I think that was an easy 908 00:45:52,870 --> 00:45:56,220 match. I think, well, you know, but 909 00:45:56,220 --> 00:45:58,500 you're looking, it's like, OK, Stanford and Cal didn't bring 910 00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:01,140 enough to the table and that blows people's minds. 911 00:46:01,340 --> 00:46:05,420 But realistically, in what matters from a revenue 912 00:46:05,420 --> 00:46:08,220 perspective, they don't bring enough to the table and you put, 913 00:46:08,220 --> 00:46:09,740 you know. Real quick, not to interrupt, 914 00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:12,620 but like the the Washington, Oregon part, this goes back to 915 00:46:12,620 --> 00:46:15,140 the pod you had with Zach. But it's like a great point that 916 00:46:15,140 --> 00:46:17,620 he brought up talking about the and we can go to the ACC. 917 00:46:17,620 --> 00:46:20,540 Time of the ACC with Florida State was like, where are you 918 00:46:20,540 --> 00:46:23,260 going to go and like that? That's the other part of this is 919 00:46:23,260 --> 00:46:27,020 like, you know, for Washington and Oregon it's it's like, all 920 00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:29,300 right, if you're not like if you're going to, you know, not 921 00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:32,320 go to the Big 10. And the PAC 12 is disintegrating 922 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,120 once USC and you know at let's just take it two weeks ago USC 923 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,120 and USCLA is already gone. The PAC 12 doesn't have a good 924 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,240 deal if you're Washington and Oregon. 925 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:44,040 It's like you have a you don't have a lot of other options 926 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:45,560 either. It's like you're not going to go 927 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:49,360 to the SEC or the SEC is not invited you the ACC has their 928 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,280 own issues, like you're not going to just join their grant 929 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,970 of right problems. The Big 12 is like Okay and then 930 00:46:54,970 --> 00:46:57,170 it's like are you going to become an independent Like that 931 00:46:57,170 --> 00:47:00,890 is the other part that is sometimes it in this discussion 932 00:47:00,890 --> 00:47:03,450 is like you know well you know you I can't believe they went to 933 00:47:03,450 --> 00:47:04,970 the Big 10. It's like where else were they 934 00:47:04,970 --> 00:47:08,450 going to go and and that's like well great point is Zach made 935 00:47:08,450 --> 00:47:10,410 about Florida State is like Florida State's like we're out. 936 00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:13,250 It's like Okay, where you going? Well, so this is where it's 937 00:47:13,250 --> 00:47:16,970 going to get interesting because I, you know, I do think that 938 00:47:17,090 --> 00:47:21,000 there's a, there are two. The Florida State question is, 939 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,280 is a curious one because they are outside of Notre Dame who's 940 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,640 constantly going to do their own thing, but they are the most 941 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,360 attractive football property left that might be movable to 942 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,280 one of these larger conferences. Now what I said on the podcast 943 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,400 with Zach, it's not just like where are they going to go. 944 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,960 A lot of those SEC schools have every reason to not want Florida 945 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,680 State in the league. Now the Big 10 if they can get 946 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,240 over misgivings, they might have about Florida State academics 947 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,520 and look Florida State's not. I mean they're they're not great 948 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,840 but I mean they're they're a research one institution. 949 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,720 They're not an A, a U school. But I mean neither's Nebraska at 950 00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:04,200 this point there's they would be attractive if the Big 10 wasn't 951 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,280 like to put off by their academic picture. 952 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,720 They're attractive because there's your entry point into 953 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:13,900 the South and that is a real concern from a recruiting 954 00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:16,300 perspective that you don't have an entry point into the South. 955 00:48:16,540 --> 00:48:18,060 That's what would make them attractive. 956 00:48:18,460 --> 00:48:20,860 The big question there is, can they get out of the ACC 957 00:48:20,860 --> 00:48:25,260 contract? And then if Fox is looking at 958 00:48:25,260 --> 00:48:28,340 that and saying, oh, Florida State's on the table and they 959 00:48:28,340 --> 00:48:32,020 could potentially join the Big 10, how much would that mean in 960 00:48:32,020 --> 00:48:34,500 terms of our additional revenue? And what could we then 961 00:48:34,500 --> 00:48:37,100 distribute to the league that would make it worth their while, 962 00:48:37,950 --> 00:48:39,270 you know? But then where I was going 963 00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:42,790 originally is if you look at the other brands in the ACC, there's 964 00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:47,230 going to be a lot of brands that get left behind if that thing 965 00:48:47,230 --> 00:48:51,150 blows up, which is why, if they're smart, you know, I think 966 00:48:51,150 --> 00:48:53,750 the Stanford Cal thing, if they actually did join the 967 00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:59,670 conference, that might give them a longer term lifespan, kind of 968 00:48:59,670 --> 00:49:01,710 like what the Big 12 has done. I mean, if you notice the Big 969 00:49:01,710 --> 00:49:05,470 12, and we talked about this again on the last podcast, Big 970 00:49:05,470 --> 00:49:07,870 12 knows who they are. They're not the Big 10. 971 00:49:07,950 --> 00:49:11,510 They're not the SEC. They are quite clearly in the 972 00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:14,910 second tier. But they have enough brands that 973 00:49:14,910 --> 00:49:18,630 they are an attractive television property and they're 974 00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:20,230 going to be in the College Football Playoff. 975 00:49:20,590 --> 00:49:22,870 You know, they're going to be in in contention for bowls. 976 00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:25,310 They can recruit well, They have a fun product. 977 00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:30,230 Will the ACC finally appreciate that they are not on the Big 10 978 00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:34,640 and SEC's level accept that and you know and then the big 979 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,320 question is OK they. Go look at the Big 12 like like 980 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,200 my dog waffles in a nice way. Like we have dinner. 981 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,120 He just kind of scrounges around the bottom. 982 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,520 He does pretty well. He gets, you know, under my 7 983 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,080 year old that gets some cheese, gets some pizza. 984 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,960 Like he's not eating off the table. 985 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,720 He's not getting aggressive with the table, but like he's doing 986 00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:53,120 pretty well getting the scraps. And the Big 12 has kind of been 987 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,880 in that spot where they're they've never like leveraged 988 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,040 another conference to pull people out a high level 989 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:00,960 conference, but they just kind of wait. 990 00:50:01,420 --> 00:50:04,140 And then once the PAC 12 explodes and the Big 10 grabs 991 00:50:04,140 --> 00:50:06,620 you at the top of the plate, whatever falls off, it's like, 992 00:50:06,660 --> 00:50:08,100 all right, yeah, we'll take Arizona, Arizona. 993 00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:10,540 And they've actually done pretty good at getting some some pretty 994 00:50:10,540 --> 00:50:13,860 good brands kind of after all the big boys have had their shot 995 00:50:13,860 --> 00:50:17,180 at the the buffet, so to speak. Yeah, I mean this is honestly 996 00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:20,940 what killed the PAC 12 is that they refused to acknowledge 997 00:50:20,940 --> 00:50:24,780 where they were in the pecking order and because they kept 998 00:50:24,780 --> 00:50:28,900 expecting Big 10 money or SEC money, that's why they no longer 999 00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:32,570 exist. And it's it's it's a cautionary 1000 00:50:32,570 --> 00:50:38,170 tale more than anything else. And I think the ACCI do think 1001 00:50:38,170 --> 00:50:41,330 you might look at it and say do we really want an angry Florida 1002 00:50:41,330 --> 00:50:45,170 State making things worse for everybody or can we? 1003 00:50:45,290 --> 00:50:48,610 You know that the flip side is if you lose Florida State or if 1004 00:50:48,610 --> 00:50:51,610 you lose Miami, you suddenly make the conference less 1005 00:50:51,610 --> 00:50:54,170 attractive from a television perspective. 1006 00:50:54,820 --> 00:50:57,500 How much less attractive? That's the big question mark. 1007 00:50:57,500 --> 00:50:59,700 Are they so much less attractive that now they're getting 20 1008 00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:01,700 million a year instead of 30 million a year? 1009 00:51:01,700 --> 00:51:04,580 Well, if you're the ACC, you have to look at it and again 1010 00:51:04,660 --> 00:51:07,060 keep referencing you know you and Zacks pod, but in other 1011 00:51:07,060 --> 00:51:09,720 places like. The the death knell to, you 1012 00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:13,280 know, pulling out USC&UCLA was the death knell of the PAC 12. 1013 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,840 It just took another 13 months for it to completely implode. 1014 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,280 That would be the fear of the ACC. 1015 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,960 In my mind, if you let Florida State leave is you better have a 1016 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,360 plan for what you're doing to move forward and continue to 1017 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,960 grow. Because if you don't, you just 1018 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,480 sit there and it's like you're now at a point where you could 1019 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,960 just you could be a spot where everyone's waiting for you to 1020 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,920 implode. And then you implode and then 1021 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,200 everyone just picks the carcass clean and that that would be the 1022 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,680 fear in my mind. If you're an ACC school, it's 1023 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:43,440 like a Florida State leaves and you let them leave and they 1024 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,480 somehow get out of this grant of right, which is dig into the 1025 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,040 grants of rights, the amount of money they need to pay and then 1026 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,160 the the media money that like they would forsake in the 1027 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:52,200 future. It's banana. 1028 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:54,720 Even Venezuela would balk at that a little bit. 1029 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,720 But you know, but you let them leave and it's like that's if 1030 00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:01,720 you don't have, if you just then kind of if you're the ACC and 1031 00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:03,400 you're like oh we'll talk about it next year. 1032 00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:05,640 You're doing exactly what the PAC 12. 1033 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,960 When UCLA&USC left and then you could be in a spot where they 1034 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,520 just completely implode and the Big 10 is able to grab three 1035 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,320 schools at A at a discount rate. Now, look, I think the the 1036 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:22,880 biggest existential threat to the ACC is you know the if 1037 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,080 schools can want to press for more money or they want to press 1038 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,400 for more prominence, that's where you could see them picked 1039 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,070 apart, you know. And again, this is one thing 1040 00:52:34,070 --> 00:52:38,310 that is in short supply in hot both higher education and in 1041 00:52:38,310 --> 00:52:42,750 sports is humility and a realization of your your 1042 00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:45,950 position in life and your position in in your profession. 1043 00:52:46,190 --> 00:52:50,920 And I I would worry with the ACC and you can this goes all the 1044 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,840 way back to why they have their grant of rights and their 1045 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,320 television contract like they were so desperate. 1046 00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,120 They so felt that they deserve their own television network 1047 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,440 that they were willing to let ESPN essentially sign them to a 1048 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,240 it's like that you know scene from the social network where 1049 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,600 you know he the at the end he's you know signs away. 1050 00:53:12,970 --> 00:53:16,010 Where he's at with stock not realizing that everybody else's 1051 00:53:16,010 --> 00:53:19,850 stock has increased in value like 6000% and his is going to 1052 00:53:19,850 --> 00:53:23,970 increase in value like 50%. It's that mentality, the grant 1053 00:53:24,010 --> 00:53:26,810 of the grant of rights just for those who don't know, and you 1054 00:53:26,810 --> 00:53:29,970 can correct me too if I fully wrong, but you know the the ESPN 1055 00:53:29,970 --> 00:53:32,810 deal with the ACC goes through 2036. 1056 00:53:33,170 --> 00:53:36,850 If any school wants to leave, they have to pay an exit fee. 1057 00:53:36,850 --> 00:53:41,690 I think it's like $150 million and then not only do they pay 1058 00:53:41,690 --> 00:53:44,160 that. Let's just say Florida State 1059 00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,720 comes up with 150 and they come to the Big 10. 1060 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,200 They then have to, Florida State has to pay any new media money 1061 00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,920 they get back to the ACC for the life of that contract that goes 1062 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,280 to 2036. Like they're it's like a, you 1063 00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,960 know, they're not allowed to get money from their new employer 1064 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,200 until the end of that deal. Whether that would hold up in 1065 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,720 court, I don't know, but it's a wild provision that's in there. 1066 00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:10,320 Again, completely opposite of the Fact 12, which was just. 1067 00:54:10,670 --> 00:54:13,150 Hey, everyone's gone and there's no exit fee and we're just out. 1068 00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:15,990 It's the complete opposite of the of a way just just for those 1069 00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:17,590 who don't know. Like when you dig into it's like 1070 00:54:17,590 --> 00:54:20,670 that's why any school that wants to leave the ACC, they're 1071 00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:25,190 looking at like a 5 to $600 million tab and 12 years of no 1072 00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:28,310 incoming revenue, right. Well anyway, let's get to some 1073 00:54:28,310 --> 00:54:31,510 questions from folks out there. We got time for a few. 1074 00:54:32,750 --> 00:54:37,150 So let me start with a long time friend of the podcast Mike 1075 00:54:37,150 --> 00:54:39,650 Petry. Do you agree with the Athletic 1076 00:54:39,730 --> 00:54:44,570 that Rutgers is the worst realignment addition First of 1077 00:54:44,570 --> 00:54:48,050 all no I don't I I really had some misgivings about that 1078 00:54:48,090 --> 00:54:50,410 athletic article. If you haven't read it yet out 1079 00:54:50,410 --> 00:54:53,210 there in in podcast land read it. 1080 00:54:53,450 --> 00:54:57,210 But it's it's very one sided and it kind of, it ignores a couple 1081 00:54:57,210 --> 00:55:02,090 of key elements in terms of like Rutgers was so far behind in 1082 00:55:02,090 --> 00:55:04,370 facilities, they were going to have to bring themselves up to 1083 00:55:04,370 --> 00:55:06,290 speed. And I think that that would have 1084 00:55:06,290 --> 00:55:09,170 been the situation regardless of who the Big 10 added, the Big 10 1085 00:55:09,170 --> 00:55:10,610 at the time. And this goes back to what we 1086 00:55:10,610 --> 00:55:13,450 were talking about in terms of of markets and television 1087 00:55:13,530 --> 00:55:17,130 networks really felt like they needed a presence in the New 1088 00:55:17,130 --> 00:55:20,370 York metro area. There were only three options. 1089 00:55:20,650 --> 00:55:24,170 Syracuse was not leaving the ACC, so that was not an option. 1090 00:55:24,770 --> 00:55:27,490 UConn and Rutgers were your only two options there. 1091 00:55:27,890 --> 00:55:30,410 And both of them, St. Joseph's have a football 1092 00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:31,330 program. Scott. 1093 00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:38,470 Yeah, but you know, both UConn and Rutgers were not going. 1094 00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:41,590 They were going to need a lot of upgrades from a financial like a 1095 00:55:42,350 --> 00:55:45,390 facilities perspective. It just wasn't going to be an 1096 00:55:45,390 --> 00:55:48,270 easy transition. Rutgers, much like we're seeing 1097 00:55:48,270 --> 00:55:51,350 with Oregon and Washington right now, only started. 1098 00:55:51,390 --> 00:55:54,350 I mean, they didn't start with a full share of Big 10 network 1099 00:55:54,350 --> 00:55:56,710 money and overall distribution money. 1100 00:55:56,710 --> 00:55:57,950 They had to work their way up to that. 1101 00:55:57,950 --> 00:56:00,150 I think they finally started receiving a full share a couple 1102 00:56:00,150 --> 00:56:04,360 of years ago. I mean, I look, honestly, I 1103 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,280 don't think Rutgers was a bad realignment addition. 1104 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:10,400 You know they're not. I don't think it is because the 1105 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,000 Big 10 is where it's at because they got that East Coast market 1106 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,440 when it mattered at the time. And to your point, like, yeah, 1107 00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,640 unless you're getting Syracuse, but Syracuse really isn't like 1108 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,200 you just needed to plant your flag there. 1109 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,040 Because I I grew up in New York before I moved to Indiana. 1110 00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,640 I have a lot of friends there. Like it's just there is no 1111 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,880 college. There is no like college team of 1112 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,880 New York there, I mean. Sports Town. 1113 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,320 And so you just need somebody. You could have, like, I joke St. 1114 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,480 John's doesn't have football, but you could have just grabbed 1115 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,080 anybody there and be like, oh, we're we're here. 1116 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:39,800 And it would be like, oh, it's great. 1117 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,360 We're going to have like, it's to get the alumni of the other 1118 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,200 Big 10 schools that are in that area. 1119 00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,920 I mean, it's and look, and I I, I don't really have a problem 1120 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,160 with either Rutgers or Maryland or Nebraska for that matter, in 1121 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,920 this new age of college athletics, being in the Big 10. 1122 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,760 I mean, you know, and and there's no reason to throw 1123 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,440 stones here, but it's not like Maryland's had the greatest 1124 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,020 start to their time in the Big 10 either. 1125 00:57:03,020 --> 00:57:05,900 They haven't won a whole lot. They had that terrible, you 1126 00:57:05,900 --> 00:57:08,540 know, tragedy with the football player dying and they had to 1127 00:57:08,540 --> 00:57:11,620 fire a head football coach and they came in with a tremendous 1128 00:57:11,620 --> 00:57:14,500 amount of debt that they've been saddled with that they couldn't 1129 00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:16,500 pay. You know, that's why they exited 1130 00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:18,180 the ACC. And and you know, even with 1131 00:57:18,180 --> 00:57:21,620 paying the fees that they had to pay to get out of the ACC, it 1132 00:57:21,620 --> 00:57:22,980 was still a better financial deal. 1133 00:57:23,660 --> 00:57:28,060 You know those those schools, I think all of them look like 1134 00:57:28,260 --> 00:57:34,400 questionable additions, but I think longterm they make sense 1135 00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:37,560 in the big scheme of things. And so it's it's hard for me. 1136 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,280 I don't know what the the purpose of that article was. 1137 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,280 Honestly, I think it was like let's find something that 1138 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,800 everybody hates about realignment and for a lot of 1139 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,200 people they hate the fact that Rutgers is in the Big 10. 1140 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:51,200 I don't. I don't. 1141 00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,740 To me, that was just kind of like it was way overblown for 1142 00:57:55,740 --> 00:57:59,380 how relevant it is in the bigger scheme of things with all of 1143 00:57:59,380 --> 00:58:01,540 this. But I have the answer. 1144 00:58:01,580 --> 00:58:02,500 What's that? Of what? 1145 00:58:02,740 --> 00:58:03,980 It's. Just kind of its tongue in cheek 1146 00:58:03,980 --> 00:58:06,420 a little bit. But to me the answer would be 1147 00:58:06,540 --> 00:58:10,340 Nebraska if it meant the Big 10 could have gotten like Oklahoma 1148 00:58:10,340 --> 00:58:12,620 or Texas instead, right. That's that's the thing. 1149 00:58:12,620 --> 00:58:15,780 It's like you you Nebraska, came in as it's like Oh my God, we're 1150 00:58:15,780 --> 00:58:17,500 getting this legacy power and they've. 1151 00:58:18,020 --> 00:58:19,580 Done. Absolutely zero. 1152 00:58:19,860 --> 00:58:22,180 And there's a world where it's like, you know, it's more the 1153 00:58:22,180 --> 00:58:26,180 opportunity cost of what we maybe had lost if we weren't 1154 00:58:26,180 --> 00:58:29,500 able to get, like I said, Texas, Oklahoma, you know, maybe we get 1155 00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:32,940 UCLA&USC earlier like they're it's just Nebraska's kind of 1156 00:58:32,940 --> 00:58:35,860 been like what have they really added and could we have gotten 1157 00:58:35,860 --> 00:58:38,900 maybe some better schools if you get, if you get Texas, Oklahoma 1158 00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:42,120 instead of Nebraska? You are now probably ahead of 1159 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:45,200 the SEC in all rounds. I really, there really is an 1160 00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:50,160 interesting alternative history where the Big 10 gets off their 1161 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:53,360 high horse a bit and sign and like agrees to let Missouri and 1162 00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,280 instead of Nebraska and Nebraska stays in the Big 12. 1163 00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,840 You know because it it really feels like from a a bunch of 1164 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:02,800 different perspectives Nebraska makes a lot more sense as a Big 1165 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,560 12 school. But I'm curious what would 1166 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,480 happen because absolutely Oklahoma and Texas are leaving 1167 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,600 Nebraska behind to go to the SEC. 1168 00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,200 You know is Nebraska happy being the big fish in the relatively 1169 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:19,160 small pond of of the Big 12 in this revamped mode maybe they 1170 00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:20,800 are. That seems to be what they want. 1171 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:22,360 They want to be the center of attention. 1172 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,960 You know, they should have known that before joining a conference 1173 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:31,240 that already had two centers of attention, that refused to yield 1174 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:34,440 the spotlight to anybody. I I don't know why they thought 1175 00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:38,040 it would somehow be different, you know, But I I do think 1176 00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,960 actually like Rutgers and Maryland, whatever you want to 1177 00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,280 complain about budgets or facilities, Rutgers and Maryland 1178 00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,800 understood their place when they joined the Big 10. 1179 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:52,690 Nebraska never has and never will, and so that I do think 1180 00:59:52,690 --> 00:59:54,210 it's kind of an interesting wrinkle in all this. 1181 00:59:54,210 --> 00:59:57,930 Mike did ask more than any specific school which 1182 00:59:57,930 --> 01:00:00,890 realignment move was the worst overall strategy. i.e. 1183 01:00:00,890 --> 01:00:05,450 Big 10 moving EACC rating, the Big E, Big 12 rating, the A A/C 1184 01:00:05,450 --> 01:00:10,490 before rating the PAC 12. I think the honestly, for me, I 1185 01:00:10,490 --> 01:00:13,810 think the biggest mistake was the ACC and the moves that 1186 01:00:13,810 --> 01:00:18,520 they've made and here's why. Like the ACC is really not much 1187 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,120 different than the Big East, when the Big East made all those 1188 01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,640 moves in the 90s to try to become a football power in 1189 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,440 addition to being a basketball power. 1190 01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:32,160 If you really look at the ACC, the core of the ACC, it's a 1191 01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,320 basketball conference first and foremost. 1192 01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,800 It's it's North Carolina. It's Duke. 1193 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:41,880 It's, you know, Virginia, Wake Forest, NC State. 1194 01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,560 You know, it's, yes, you've got some good football programs in 1195 01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,680 there, but you know, they they were the ones that added Florida 1196 01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:50,800 State. Florida State was an independent 1197 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:52,120 in football. And I think they were in the 1198 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,920 metro for all other sports and they've been they they 1199 01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,280 completely changed the trajectory of that conference 1200 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,600 into something that I think most of their membership is not 1201 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,960 comfortable with. You can make the same argument 1202 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:08,270 about adding Virginia Tech, adding Miami, adding Syracuse, 1203 01:01:08,270 --> 01:01:11,030 because all of that was part of that raid that they carried out 1204 01:01:11,070 --> 01:01:12,270 on the Big East. And it was. 1205 01:01:12,310 --> 01:01:16,310 It's interesting because I think the ACC, and this is where some 1206 01:01:16,310 --> 01:01:17,830 of the hubris we've talked about, comes in. 1207 01:01:18,030 --> 01:01:21,950 They really thought by doing that they were guaranteeing an 1208 01:01:21,950 --> 01:01:24,590 equal seat at the table with the Big 10 in the SCC. 1209 01:01:24,830 --> 01:01:27,550 And in the early 2000s, you could probably make that 1210 01:01:27,550 --> 01:01:29,390 argument. It hasn't worked out that way. 1211 01:01:29,710 --> 01:01:33,790 And you know, a lot of it is not really realizing what you're 1212 01:01:33,790 --> 01:01:37,550 adding when you do that. They added a Miami program that 1213 01:01:37,550 --> 01:01:41,670 by the time they added them was, you know, running on fumes. 1214 01:01:41,710 --> 01:01:45,070 And no one realized that they added a Syracuse program that 1215 01:01:45,230 --> 01:01:48,990 was real good in the 80s and pretty good in the 90s, but was 1216 01:01:48,990 --> 01:01:53,030 rapidly like was in an area that was rapidly disintegrating from 1217 01:01:53,350 --> 01:01:56,190 a recruiting perspective. They added a Virginia Tech 1218 01:01:56,190 --> 01:01:59,780 program much like Florida State that was largely the Providence 1219 01:01:59,780 --> 01:02:03,100 of one man, Frank Beamer at Virginia Tech, Bobby Bowden at 1220 01:02:03,100 --> 01:02:06,460 Florida State. Those were not programs that had 1221 01:02:06,460 --> 01:02:09,020 a huge amount of success prior to those two guys getting there. 1222 01:02:09,020 --> 01:02:11,260 And there was always the chance that they were going to fall 1223 01:02:11,260 --> 01:02:14,580 off, especially when you consider what surrounds them. 1224 01:02:14,820 --> 01:02:17,020 You know, and I, we talked about it on this previous show. 1225 01:02:17,020 --> 01:02:20,700 You know Florida State you're surrounded by Auburn and Alabama 1226 01:02:21,220 --> 01:02:25,340 and Louisiana State to and the Mississippi schools to your W 1227 01:02:25,540 --> 01:02:29,820 You're surrounded by Georgia and you know Florida and South 1228 01:02:29,820 --> 01:02:34,420 Carolina to your EI mean that if you fall off at all, which 1229 01:02:34,420 --> 01:02:37,500 they've done, especially since Jimbo Fisher left, it's going to 1230 01:02:37,580 --> 01:02:39,020 be real hard to pick yourself back up. 1231 01:02:39,020 --> 01:02:42,580 And Syracuse or excuse me, Virginia Tech again, it's like 1232 01:02:42,580 --> 01:02:45,300 that's what Beamer did there is kind of miraculous. 1233 01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:47,900 What Have you ever been to Blacksburg and you've been to 1234 01:02:47,900 --> 01:02:51,660 that surrounding area Not exactly a hotbed for modern 1235 01:02:51,660 --> 01:02:54,480 athletic talent. And so, you know, I also think 1236 01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:56,920 the ACC just got, they got a little too greedy. 1237 01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,280 I mean for no reason. They had Boston College. 1238 01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:02,440 Why, what is it you want to talk about? 1239 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,680 I mean calling Rutgers the worst realignment addition just 1240 01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,640 completely ignores Boston College having done absolutely 1241 01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,080 nothing in the ACC since they've arrived. 1242 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,480 And you want, I mean a major media market, like one of the 1243 01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,240 biggest media markets, one of the most sports savvy media 1244 01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:21,560 markets in the nation. Boston College doesn't move the 1245 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,520 needle at all. People complain that you know 1246 01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:25,800 that that LA schools don't move the needle in LA. 1247 01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,080 Boston College is in Boston and it's it's a complete 1248 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,160 afterthought, you know. So to me that would probably be 1249 01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,280 my answer is like the ACC does not need to be a 15 school 1250 01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,600 league. It tried to do with the Big East 1251 01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,000 did, which was be two things at once, and it's done none of them 1252 01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,400 particularly well. Yeah, I I would say it has to be 1253 01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,040 whatever the PAC 12 did. Because they were so bad and 1254 01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,840 imploded. But no you're you're you know I 1255 01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,440 mean other than I mean really and that's the thing the PAC 12 1256 01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:57,520 sins are are not doing things not adding Texas and Oklahoma 1257 01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,080 you know and where and you know because I think on on their face 1258 01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,000 the Utah and Colorado editions for the PAC 12 were actually 1259 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,600 pretty good but everything else they did was a real bad idea. 1260 01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,440 Couple other questions we want to get to real quick because the 1261 01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,360 bus is about to arrive, which means my podcast time comes to 1262 01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:17,420 an end here. Assembly Call asks question. 1263 01:04:17,420 --> 01:04:19,460 Can you speak to some of the fears that have been expressed, 1264 01:04:19,460 --> 01:04:22,780 including by Ryan Phillips, rumors and rants about Indiana 1265 01:04:22,780 --> 01:04:26,540 potentially being left behind if the big football brands someday 1266 01:04:26,540 --> 01:04:34,500 decide to do their own thing? So I'll say this, all the things 1267 01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:37,220 I highlighted earlier about moving out of the era where, you 1268 01:04:37,220 --> 01:04:40,100 know, markets are important, moving more into an era where 1269 01:04:40,100 --> 01:04:42,620 subscriber numbers are important and having, you know, 1270 01:04:42,620 --> 01:04:47,500 essentially as many people within reason interested in your 1271 01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:51,300 product on both a national level and on a regional level. 1272 01:04:53,020 --> 01:04:56,820 That to me has changed the equation from what it was 1015 1273 01:04:56,820 --> 01:04:58,580 years ago. And a lot of the proclamations 1274 01:04:58,580 --> 01:05:03,860 and the the the declarations we've been seeing from media 1275 01:05:03,860 --> 01:05:07,220 commentators and sports about oh, you know, we're just a few 1276 01:05:07,220 --> 01:05:09,860 years removed from Ohio State and Michigan saying, well wait, 1277 01:05:09,860 --> 01:05:12,780 why are we paying Indiana and Purdue all this money when we 1278 01:05:12,780 --> 01:05:15,270 could just cut out the middleman and keep more of it to 1279 01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:18,070 ourselves. I, you know there's a couple of 1280 01:05:18,070 --> 01:05:20,270 things to that. First of all, what I just said 1281 01:05:20,910 --> 01:05:25,350 you know there there are certainly going to be some 1282 01:05:25,350 --> 01:05:28,350 brands that don't have as much market value as some other 1283 01:05:28,350 --> 01:05:32,470 brands, but they all bring quite a bit to the table right now. 1284 01:05:32,830 --> 01:05:36,920 I mean the fact that with a variety of different football 1285 01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,640 and basketball programs in a variety of different schools in 1286 01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:41,440 a variety of different locations, that the Big Ten's 1287 01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:44,160 been able to go out and secure the amount of money that they've 1288 01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:46,640 been able to secure from multiple media partners. 1289 01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:50,360 You know, there were plenty of opportunities for the networks 1290 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,160 to say, you know guys, as we move into this next media 1291 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:58,000 contract, why don't why don't we leave Indiana or Iowa or 1292 01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,120 Minnesota, you know, by the wayside because you guys can 1293 01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,040 make more money. The fact that didn't happen 1294 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,760 tells me that there's not much of an appetite for doing that 1295 01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,440 right now. I'd also point to just the 1296 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:15,480 history of college sports to my understanding and and maybe I've 1297 01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,600 missed something. Let me ask you this, Scott, Can 1298 01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:22,480 you name me the schools that have been kicked out of power 1299 01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,760 conferences, Power Five or BCS or CFP based conferences? 1300 01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:29,360 How many have been kicked out and forced to go down a level? 1301 01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,400 I I can because we talked about this. 1302 01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:36,280 You gave me the answer so it's like I I have the the the CHEAT 1303 01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,840 SHEET, but the answer is temple. Temple, the only school that is, 1304 01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,520 has moved from a power conference and didn't move to 1305 01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:44,080 another power conference or move. 1306 01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:46,600 And and why did that happen? Why did it happen? 1307 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:49,680 It happened because Temple officials were not willing to 1308 01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,200 commit to a bunch of facilities upgrades in football. 1309 01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:55,160 That was it. And there were a few other 1310 01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,040 things, but that was the primary reason why. 1311 01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:01,440 And you know, now you've had schools left behind when 1312 01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:05,880 conferences have reorganized. But I have a hard time believing 1313 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,120 at this point that you're going to see the formation of a true 1314 01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,360 super conference that involves just the best brands from each 1315 01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,400 of these different school, of the each of these different 1316 01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:16,840 conferences. We already have that. 1317 01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:20,980 It's called the College Football Playoff, and this is a separate 1318 01:07:20,980 --> 01:07:24,500 media entity that's been cooked up by the conferences. 1319 01:07:24,820 --> 01:07:27,460 And this is the thing. It's like the idea that Ohio 1320 01:07:27,460 --> 01:07:32,460 State, Michigan, Alabama, Georgia and like six other 1321 01:07:32,460 --> 01:07:34,620 brands are going to get together and say, hey, you know what 1322 01:07:34,620 --> 01:07:36,460 we're going to do? We're going to screw over our 1323 01:07:36,460 --> 01:07:39,900 media partners and we're going to screw over all of the schools 1324 01:07:39,900 --> 01:07:43,140 that we've been working with for decades, sometimes centuries, 1325 01:07:43,620 --> 01:07:47,340 and go off on our own and create a new thing and cut everybody 1326 01:07:47,340 --> 01:07:49,630 else out. Is it possible? 1327 01:07:49,830 --> 01:07:52,630 It's possible. But it's like I would say about 1328 01:07:52,630 --> 01:07:57,310 a .5% probability because there are still a lot of people 1329 01:07:57,310 --> 01:08:00,430 running college athletics. And I mean college presidents, I 1330 01:08:00,430 --> 01:08:03,470 mean athletic directors who are very heavily committed to this 1331 01:08:03,470 --> 01:08:07,590 idea that they are working with partners that they consider 1332 01:08:07,590 --> 01:08:09,310 peers. And there's other schools that 1333 01:08:09,310 --> 01:08:11,990 they don't consider peers that they don't let into those clubs. 1334 01:08:13,030 --> 01:08:16,029 We are not in 30 years from now, we might revisit this 1335 01:08:16,029 --> 01:08:18,750 conversation 10 years from now, 10 years from now. 1336 01:08:18,750 --> 01:08:20,870 Some of these media deals won't even be over yet. 1337 01:08:20,870 --> 01:08:24,590 So the idea that we are on the threshold of some kind of Super 1338 01:08:24,590 --> 01:08:27,550 League to me is fear mongering from people that don't like the 1339 01:08:27,550 --> 01:08:31,029 change in the reorganization that's occurred right now rather 1340 01:08:31,029 --> 01:08:34,130 than anything that's informed by actual stuff. 1341 01:08:34,130 --> 01:08:37,370 Like the Big 10 might add Florida State, they might add 1342 01:08:37,370 --> 01:08:39,609 Clemson, they might add both. They're not going to kick 1343 01:08:39,609 --> 01:08:42,810 Northwestern out in the process. They're not going to kick 1344 01:08:42,970 --> 01:08:45,529 Indiana out in the process. Both of those schools in 1345 01:08:45,529 --> 01:08:47,130 particular for different reasons. 1346 01:08:47,850 --> 01:08:50,410 You know, right now I think we're still in an additive 1347 01:08:50,410 --> 01:08:53,029 state. I would have a hard time 1348 01:08:53,029 --> 01:08:55,670 believing that we're suddenly going to go to an entirely new 1349 01:08:55,670 --> 01:08:58,069 model because right now what we're seeing is just different 1350 01:08:58,069 --> 01:09:01,149 iterations of the same model. And that's a model that both the 1351 01:09:01,550 --> 01:09:03,870 schools and the networks are comfortable with. 1352 01:09:04,750 --> 01:09:07,189 So I'm going to take this from a different angle cuz I I have 1353 01:09:07,189 --> 01:09:09,470 enjoyed having this conversation with people. 1354 01:09:09,470 --> 01:09:11,910 You've you've kind of shot me down and we talked about it, but 1355 01:09:11,910 --> 01:09:14,350 I've been like, man. Let's just pretend the Big 10 is 1356 01:09:14,350 --> 01:09:16,950 looking to, you know, ADD, you know, Notre Dame, Clemson, and 1357 01:09:16,950 --> 01:09:19,069 they're going to boot two schools to bring them in. 1358 01:09:19,229 --> 01:09:21,350 Who would you boot? I've had fun with that 1359 01:09:21,350 --> 01:09:24,910 discussion, and unfortunately Indiana is close to the boot 1360 01:09:24,910 --> 01:09:25,990 list. Like when you start looking at 1361 01:09:25,990 --> 01:09:27,670 the school, don't agree at all. Don't agree. 1362 01:09:28,069 --> 01:09:32,390 Sorry. But we're we're near the bottom. 1363 01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:34,310 But here here is what I would say to Jared. 1364 01:09:34,310 --> 01:09:36,149 So let me let me let me get this through. 1365 01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:38,430 You know the the two things that is. 1366 01:09:39,069 --> 01:09:41,910 On the the Indiana docket, everything you just said that, 1367 01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:43,990 you know there we are in an additive mode. 1368 01:09:44,270 --> 01:09:47,550 I do think that if a conference started booting schools I think 1369 01:09:47,550 --> 01:09:50,550 that everybody would wig out in the sense that right now it's 1370 01:09:50,550 --> 01:09:52,470 like okay, the PAC 12 died. Like that sucks. 1371 01:09:52,470 --> 01:09:55,070 Like, oh, sucks for, you know Washington state and Oregon 1372 01:09:55,070 --> 01:09:57,230 State like it sucks. Everyone kind of feels bad. 1373 01:09:57,230 --> 01:09:59,950 But they didn't they didn't get kicked out of the PAC 12. 1374 01:09:59,950 --> 01:10:01,950 They just didn't get picked up by anybody. 1375 01:10:02,150 --> 01:10:04,470 You know if if the Big 10 tomorrow just says, hey, we're 1376 01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:08,470 booting Purdue in Northwestern. Suddenly every school would be 1377 01:10:08,470 --> 01:10:10,830 like what like Vanderbilt like like like a lot of other schools 1378 01:10:10,830 --> 01:10:14,670 would suddenly get this would all hit a different fever and 1379 01:10:14,670 --> 01:10:17,910 people would would freak out the two things that Indiana so I I 1380 01:10:18,070 --> 01:10:22,070 but I do hear what Jared is saying and I will say that you 1381 01:10:22,070 --> 01:10:26,150 know I'll make my point but caveat it with it's still really 1382 01:10:26,230 --> 01:10:29,590 helpful if we could be good in football like it's this isn't 1383 01:10:29,590 --> 01:10:33,030 just a like let's let's we'll get to it in our football pods. 1384 01:10:33,460 --> 01:10:36,460 Let's not just advocate our role in football, like being good in 1385 01:10:36,460 --> 01:10:39,940 football does help. But let me name off some schools 1386 01:10:39,940 --> 01:10:41,300 and they all have one thing in common. 1387 01:10:41,540 --> 01:10:46,860 Florida State, Kentucky, Clemson, Oregon, WI, Illinois, 1388 01:10:47,220 --> 01:10:50,020 Washington, IA. Those are all schools that last 1389 01:10:50,020 --> 01:10:53,300 year brought in less money than Indiana. 1390 01:10:53,380 --> 01:10:55,780 When you look at the total right now, again, it's because we're 1391 01:10:55,780 --> 01:10:57,500 part of the Big 10. But. 1392 01:10:58,230 --> 01:11:01,310 We're one of the highest revenue producing schools in the Big 10. 1393 01:11:01,430 --> 01:11:05,790 We were 13th in the country last year, $166,000,000 in revenue, 1394 01:11:05,790 --> 01:11:08,590 something that some of that coming through donations back 1395 01:11:08,590 --> 01:11:12,350 from the foundation, but yes. Yes, in a normal year Indiana is 1396 01:11:12,350 --> 01:11:15,550 like between 30th and 40th which is still very respectable within 1397 01:11:15,550 --> 01:11:17,830 college sports, really good. But the other piece you 1398 01:11:17,830 --> 01:11:22,470 mentioned it too, alumni is that you know it varies, but we are 1399 01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:27,230 second, third or top top five of living alumni base in the 1400 01:11:27,230 --> 01:11:31,190 country. We have 650,000 alumni and I 1401 01:11:31,190 --> 01:11:35,190 would say that they are a very active alumni base that when you 1402 01:11:35,190 --> 01:11:38,630 go, you know when when you and I went to the Gator Bowl, a, you 1403 01:11:38,630 --> 01:11:40,510 know, pretty good football team, it wasn't. 1404 01:11:40,590 --> 01:11:43,950 The national championship game, we If we didn't outdraw 1405 01:11:43,950 --> 01:11:47,230 Tennessee, we damn near drew the same as Tennessee, a school that 1406 01:11:47,230 --> 01:11:50,470 has a long history of football that shows up when we go to 1407 01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:52,110 basketball. We went to the game in Vegas 1408 01:11:52,110 --> 01:11:57,790 last year, the basketball game, It was 75% IU fans, Arizona has 1409 01:11:57,790 --> 01:12:00,230 had way more success in basketball is also way closer to 1410 01:12:00,230 --> 01:12:03,350 Vegas than we are. We outdrew them four to one or 1411 01:12:03,350 --> 01:12:04,670 three to one. However, you want to say it's a 1412 01:12:04,670 --> 01:12:08,550 very active, engaged alumni base and so that alone. 1413 01:12:08,980 --> 01:12:13,860 Is very appealing to TV networks, which are pushing a 1414 01:12:13,860 --> 01:12:17,020 lot of these decisions. And so it would be very, very, 1415 01:12:17,300 --> 01:12:19,340 very short side. Just wouldn't be in the interest 1416 01:12:19,340 --> 01:12:22,900 of any of these networks to be like, hey, there's 650,000 1417 01:12:22,900 --> 01:12:26,180 possible Subs who want to watch I U Sports. 1418 01:12:26,460 --> 01:12:29,100 Maybe they suck in football. A lot of them just want to watch 1419 01:12:29,100 --> 01:12:33,550 I U Suck In Football like we We. To go against my own comment, 1420 01:12:33,750 --> 01:12:35,950 there's, you know, Penn State is above us. 1421 01:12:35,950 --> 01:12:38,470 I'm looking at this list of, you know, alumni bases. 1422 01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:42,990 Michigan is third, Michigan State is 4th, UCLA is fifth, 1423 01:12:43,270 --> 01:12:46,190 Ohio State is 6. Like, you know, Wisconsin's not 1424 01:12:46,190 --> 01:12:47,910 up there. Illinois is not up there. 1425 01:12:48,190 --> 01:12:52,390 You know, the difference ultimately is what you said. 1426 01:12:52,390 --> 01:12:56,430 It's like I use alumni base, love sports, you know, they love 1427 01:12:56,710 --> 01:12:58,110 that. They love basketball more than 1428 01:12:58,110 --> 01:13:00,870 football, but they're not. They're not not watching 1429 01:13:01,250 --> 01:13:02,370 football. Soccer. 1430 01:13:02,410 --> 01:13:07,050 Yeah, I mean the the, you know, the problems are like Cal 1431 01:13:07,050 --> 01:13:09,530 Berkeley has a lot of alums and none of them, very few of them 1432 01:13:09,530 --> 01:13:11,330 are watching their sports regularly, at least 1433 01:13:11,330 --> 01:13:13,570 comparatively speaking. And you mentioned like that. 1434 01:13:13,570 --> 01:13:16,250 All these things were saying go for a lot of the other schools 1435 01:13:16,250 --> 01:13:19,250 in the Big 10 that haven't had a whole lot of on field success 1436 01:13:19,250 --> 01:13:22,970 with Illinois, Minnesota, you know, I mean Purdue is in this 1437 01:13:22,970 --> 01:13:26,760 mix as well. Purdue's actually in worse shape 1438 01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:28,640 because they have a lot of living alumni and a lot of them 1439 01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,400 don't live in the United States and don't particularly care. 1440 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:35,320 I mean, this is where having a an internationally known 1441 01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:37,840 engineering school can hurt you because a lot of people come in, 1442 01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,520 take classes, and then leave. Again, that's not something 1443 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,160 unique to Purdue. Miami deals with this. 1444 01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,200 Miami's got a lot of alums, relatively speaking. 1445 01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,320 It's a small private school. None of them live in Florida. 1446 01:13:48,770 --> 01:13:51,770 So Miami will turn decent ratings in like Northeast 1447 01:13:51,770 --> 01:13:54,010 markets where a lot of their alums live, and then they'll do 1448 01:13:54,010 --> 01:13:57,450 a bad rating in Miami because nobody cares and nobody goes to 1449 01:13:57,450 --> 01:14:00,210 the games. So it look there's a lot of 1450 01:14:00,210 --> 01:14:03,490 factors and I think my big problem with the argument that 1451 01:14:04,090 --> 01:14:08,050 the conferences are going to start dropping underperforming 1452 01:14:08,050 --> 01:14:09,450 schools. This goes to a question that 1453 01:14:09,450 --> 01:14:15,570 Patrick asked us on on X. It a it it ignores something 1454 01:14:15,570 --> 01:14:18,000 that was mentioned earlier in this show which is that 1455 01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:22,200 conferences and television partners need inventory and they 1456 01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:24,120 don't just need top line inventory. 1457 01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:28,800 They need to fill those force like slots throughout the course 1458 01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,120 of a Saturday. They need to fill a Thursday 1459 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:33,040 night game or a Friday night game. 1460 01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:37,800 They need second tier sports to fill streaming situations. 1461 01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,800 They need the Big 10 Network, which is basically just a Fox 1462 01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:43,400 outlet at this point to carry games. 1463 01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:47,270 And you know, you can start chopping schools out if you 1464 01:14:47,270 --> 01:14:48,150 want. You're going to run out of 1465 01:14:48,150 --> 01:14:51,190 inventory real fast, particularly again if we get 1466 01:14:51,190 --> 01:14:54,390 down the line and you got a lot of current varsity sports that 1467 01:14:54,390 --> 01:14:57,470 have had to turn into club sports because of the issues 1468 01:14:57,470 --> 01:14:59,990 with with college athletes potentially being considered 1469 01:15:00,390 --> 01:15:04,430 employees. And so I just think to me, you 1470 01:15:04,430 --> 01:15:06,190 know, could it happen down the line? 1471 01:15:06,190 --> 01:15:09,590 Of course, there's a lot of things that are hard to predict, 1472 01:15:09,830 --> 01:15:13,710 but a lot of the commentary I'm seeing is born out of nothing 1473 01:15:13,710 --> 01:15:19,620 other then I think a misreading of what's actually going on in 1474 01:15:19,620 --> 01:15:23,420 broadcast markets and streaming markets and college athletics 1475 01:15:23,420 --> 01:15:24,860 and why all of this is happening. 1476 01:15:25,100 --> 01:15:27,900 It's not, oh, we're going to shove everybody off the table 1477 01:15:28,100 --> 01:15:31,860 other than the top players. It's more along the lines of, 1478 01:15:31,860 --> 01:15:34,380 well, we have a way to capitalize on that already. 1479 01:15:34,780 --> 01:15:38,780 This is largely like service for the sports fan who needs a 1480 01:15:38,780 --> 01:15:41,700 reason to subscribe to a streaming service. 1481 01:15:42,270 --> 01:15:45,750 You don't get there by saying, hey, look at all of these really 1482 01:15:45,750 --> 01:15:50,350 highly identified sports fans that root for in Indiana or root 1483 01:15:50,350 --> 01:15:53,550 for, you know, a team that's like Indiana that hasn't had a 1484 01:15:53,550 --> 01:15:55,310 huge amount of success. And say you know what, we're 1485 01:15:55,310 --> 01:15:59,910 kicking you out like, OK, so great, you're you're for for 1486 01:15:59,910 --> 01:16:04,310 saving like what, $5,000,000 a year maybe if you, if you take 1487 01:16:04,310 --> 01:16:07,030 the the distribution and you separate it, you're going to 1488 01:16:07,030 --> 01:16:10,230 just sacrifice maybe 200,000 subscribers to whatever the big 1489 01:16:10,230 --> 01:16:13,170 10 packages. That makes zero sense, you know, 1490 01:16:13,170 --> 01:16:17,410 So that's that's where again, circumstances could change. 1491 01:16:17,450 --> 01:16:19,090 I could be reading it totally wrong. 1492 01:16:19,090 --> 01:16:21,130 I don't think I am. And that's why I'm not really 1493 01:16:21,130 --> 01:16:24,250 concerned about it at all. But I understand why people are 1494 01:16:24,250 --> 01:16:26,970 concerned about it because it keeps getting pushed like it's 1495 01:16:26,970 --> 01:16:28,730 an inevitability. And it's like the big 10 1496 01:16:28,730 --> 01:16:31,890 contracts run through the next eight years. 1497 01:16:32,730 --> 01:16:36,010 It's it's like nothing's going to happen during that period at 1498 01:16:36,010 --> 01:16:37,850 all. And the idea that we're going to 1499 01:16:37,850 --> 01:16:40,690 get to 2030 and suddenly we're just going to start kicking 1500 01:16:40,690 --> 01:16:44,580 people off the boat. If the first time it happens, I 1501 01:16:44,580 --> 01:16:47,300 will come on the podcast, if it still exists, and apologize. 1502 01:16:47,700 --> 01:16:51,060 But that we've been through 25 plus years, 30 years of 1503 01:16:51,060 --> 01:16:54,540 realignment and we've had one school kicked out of what was at 1504 01:16:54,540 --> 01:16:57,340 the time considered a power conference is as good of an 1505 01:16:57,340 --> 01:16:59,860 indicator to me as anything. And I trust that a hell of a lot 1506 01:16:59,860 --> 01:17:02,780 more than anonymous sources saying, oh, this might happen in 1507 01:17:02,780 --> 01:17:05,580 the future. Anyway, couple of the things 1508 01:17:05,580 --> 01:17:09,980 real quick before we go. Let's see. 1509 01:17:11,110 --> 01:17:13,030 Yeah, we actually. So Matt's ever been asked a 1510 01:17:13,030 --> 01:17:15,830 similar question. How many disingenuous won't 1511 01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:18,150 someone think of the sports and athletes we never cover takes? 1512 01:17:18,150 --> 01:17:20,790 Will we continue to continue to see from the same sports writers 1513 01:17:20,790 --> 01:17:23,910 who've bleeded for so long, basically asking for this car 1514 01:17:24,230 --> 01:17:26,430 conference Armageddon to occur? We kind of touched on that 1515 01:17:26,430 --> 01:17:29,070 earlier, Matt. It's this idea that the travel 1516 01:17:29,070 --> 01:17:32,230 thing, which if you've been following college sports, you've 1517 01:17:32,230 --> 01:17:35,030 known that's an issue for a while, that's been going on for 1518 01:17:35,110 --> 01:17:38,590 like a long time and it hasn't really been an issue. 1519 01:17:38,590 --> 01:17:41,190 It's an issue now. And I think a lot of it really 1520 01:17:41,190 --> 01:17:47,600 came down to the PAC 12 essentially dying by its own 1521 01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,360 hand, by the lack of of what they did to protect themselves 1522 01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:54,400 really made people kind of take a step back and be like, is this 1523 01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:55,600 the direction we really want to go? 1524 01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:57,880 And the answer is no. But I got news for you. 1525 01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:00,720 You guys are riding in a bus that's been driving down this 1526 01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:04,520 road for a while at this point. So, you know, my hope would be 1527 01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,440 maybe people will pause after this initial wave of 1528 01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:11,500 recriminations and and garment rending and say okay, maybe we 1529 01:18:11,500 --> 01:18:14,020 really need to look at what's going on and report more 1530 01:18:14,020 --> 01:18:17,260 critically on the things that are harming people in college 1531 01:18:17,260 --> 01:18:19,020 sports. Part of the issue here. 1532 01:18:19,260 --> 01:18:21,700 And and look, I have a lot of respect for our journalist 1533 01:18:21,700 --> 01:18:23,620 friends and our in his particular sports writer 1534 01:18:23,620 --> 01:18:27,220 friends. But I read about, you know, I 1535 01:18:27,220 --> 01:18:31,260 read as much about college sports written by journalists as 1536 01:18:31,260 --> 01:18:32,500 anybody. And you know who gets 1537 01:18:32,500 --> 01:18:35,420 interviewed? Coaches and athletic directors. 1538 01:18:35,420 --> 01:18:36,460 You know who doesn't get interviewed? 1539 01:18:36,460 --> 01:18:40,260 In most cases, college athletes. So there's these stories have 1540 01:18:40,260 --> 01:18:42,100 been out there for a while. You know who else doesn't get 1541 01:18:42,100 --> 01:18:46,260 interviewed that much? Coaches at Olympic sports and 1542 01:18:46,260 --> 01:18:48,820 nonrevenue sports. You know, we see a lot from the 1543 01:18:48,820 --> 01:18:50,740 football coach. We see a lot from the basketball 1544 01:18:50,740 --> 01:18:51,780 coach. And look, there's a ton of 1545 01:18:51,780 --> 01:18:54,100 reasons why access is restricted. 1546 01:18:54,100 --> 01:18:56,670 It's very difficult. Colleges have really put 1547 01:18:56,670 --> 01:18:59,830 themselves in a position where they can restrict what gets out, 1548 01:18:59,870 --> 01:19:02,310 what gets talked about. That's a real problem. 1549 01:19:02,390 --> 01:19:04,990 But these are problems that have existed for a long time. 1550 01:19:05,270 --> 01:19:08,350 You and I have both been in airports where we've seen like a 1551 01:19:08,350 --> 01:19:11,270 large group of people wearing college apparel walking by. 1552 01:19:11,270 --> 01:19:14,830 And it's like, Oh yeah, that's the that's the Houston golf team 1553 01:19:14,990 --> 01:19:17,390 who's in Indianapolis because they're playing in a tournament 1554 01:19:17,390 --> 01:19:20,550 and it's like, why are they playing in a tournament here and 1555 01:19:20,550 --> 01:19:23,180 vice versa. This stuff has been going on for 1556 01:19:23,180 --> 01:19:25,380 a while. I would love to see it reported 1557 01:19:25,380 --> 01:19:29,140 on more and it's sad that it's taken this situation to make it 1558 01:19:29,140 --> 01:19:34,100 more prominent for people. You said you hit it on the head, 1559 01:19:34,140 --> 01:19:38,660 sorry I didn't know if you had there last thing I'll I'll 1560 01:19:38,660 --> 01:19:43,580 address so Dan Corral asked. I U athletic department 1561 01:19:43,580 --> 01:19:46,500 currently earns at least 20 to 30 million per year more than A 1562 01:19:46,500 --> 01:19:49,340 CC schools, yet it doesn't reflect in terms of results on 1563 01:19:49,340 --> 01:19:52,540 the gridiron. Will money alone actually lead 1564 01:19:52,540 --> 01:19:55,340 to success or will Wake Forest still be five times better? 1565 01:19:56,380 --> 01:19:59,420 Look, I mean part of the issue is there's more good football 1566 01:19:59,420 --> 01:20:02,900 players in the Southeast than there are in the Midwest at this 1567 01:20:02,900 --> 01:20:06,180 point that are available. That's just the numbers. 1568 01:20:07,340 --> 01:20:10,900 And it's it's a hard sell. It's a harder sell to get 1569 01:20:11,180 --> 01:20:14,340 players that are good to come to I U than it is to go elsewhere. 1570 01:20:14,620 --> 01:20:17,220 That sounds like an excuse. It's more just a reality. 1571 01:20:17,220 --> 01:20:20,260 That's been the case for a long time I U. 1572 01:20:20,970 --> 01:20:24,530 Realistically, for decades I U didn't take their football 1573 01:20:24,530 --> 01:20:27,690 program seriously. They made the wrong hires at 1574 01:20:28,050 --> 01:20:30,570 head coach. In a lot of cases, they didn't 1575 01:20:30,570 --> 01:20:33,250 upgrade their facilities. You know, you, you think about, 1576 01:20:33,930 --> 01:20:36,450 you know, I, and I've said this before on this podcast. 1577 01:20:37,370 --> 01:20:41,610 I think the last 12 to 15 years of I U Athletics, as they've 1578 01:20:41,610 --> 01:20:46,330 related to football, have been by far the most sustained 1579 01:20:46,330 --> 01:20:50,270 interest in trying to grow and support the football program, 1580 01:20:50,270 --> 01:20:52,630 both in terms of facilities and in terms of the money they've 1581 01:20:52,630 --> 01:20:55,350 been willing to pay to head coaches, assistant coaches, 1582 01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:58,670 support staff and whatnot. I think the problem I use got 1583 01:20:59,310 --> 01:21:03,590 that Wake Forest and many other programs don't have is there 1584 01:21:03,590 --> 01:21:07,870 were so many decades of neglect on the part of I U in terms of 1585 01:21:07,870 --> 01:21:09,910 their football program. And you know you go back and you 1586 01:21:09,910 --> 01:21:14,570 look and it's like you know all the way through from the, you 1587 01:21:14,570 --> 01:21:19,810 know the you start in the the 1910s and 1920s and the lack of 1588 01:21:19,810 --> 01:21:22,130 investment in a good football stadium and the lack of 1589 01:21:22,130 --> 01:21:24,330 maintenance on the football stadium that I you had. 1590 01:21:24,330 --> 01:21:28,730 And then you know that hiring of coaches that were not top level 1591 01:21:28,770 --> 01:21:32,930 and got I you on probation or just got I you into a bunch of 1592 01:21:32,930 --> 01:21:35,570 games where they lost. You know, it looked like things 1593 01:21:35,570 --> 01:21:37,450 that turned around in the 80s and 90s. 1594 01:21:37,450 --> 01:21:40,690 And then, you know, the Mallory era kind of collapses. 1595 01:21:41,460 --> 01:21:43,820 And I U goes and hires a guy who'd never even been a 1596 01:21:43,820 --> 01:21:46,420 coordinator. He was an alum, but he was not, 1597 01:21:46,420 --> 01:21:48,540 not ready for what a difficult job this is. 1598 01:21:48,540 --> 01:21:50,700 And meanwhile, the facilities are falling apart. 1599 01:21:51,020 --> 01:21:53,660 I mean, you and I went to school in the late 90s. 1600 01:21:54,540 --> 01:21:57,820 I don't know why you would come to play for I U with those 1601 01:21:57,820 --> 01:22:00,420 facilities. So I think the problem right now 1602 01:22:00,420 --> 01:22:02,500 is that I U Yes, They're making more money. 1603 01:22:02,500 --> 01:22:05,780 And I do think that the consistent application of money 1604 01:22:06,100 --> 01:22:11,530 to salaries, to facilities, to recruiting will help I U level 1605 01:22:11,530 --> 01:22:14,850 and eventually you know exceed the playing field that a lot of 1606 01:22:14,850 --> 01:22:18,810 these middle level A CC schools, maybe a couple of the lower tier 1607 01:22:18,810 --> 01:22:21,210 SEC schools have. They're still going to be a real 1608 01:22:21,210 --> 01:22:23,650 deficit in terms of the available talent recruiting. 1609 01:22:23,650 --> 01:22:26,170 It's not sitting in Indiana's backyard and what little there 1610 01:22:26,170 --> 01:22:29,690 is is going to Notre Dame or going to Ohio State or going to 1611 01:22:29,690 --> 01:22:33,020 Michigan, but it's going to be a long slog. 1612 01:22:33,380 --> 01:22:37,260 I U unfortunately, I think especially with NIL now that 1613 01:22:37,260 --> 01:22:39,540 they were just there's two there's a huge gap that they 1614 01:22:39,540 --> 01:22:43,980 have to make up and it's going to take longstanding, consistent 1615 01:22:44,060 --> 01:22:46,420 investment in order to make this work. 1616 01:22:46,420 --> 01:22:48,940 And so, you know, I understand I'm frustrated. 1617 01:22:48,940 --> 01:22:50,860 You're frustrated about. I know a lot of I U football 1618 01:22:50,860 --> 01:22:53,380 fans are. It's not a completely unwinnable 1619 01:22:53,380 --> 01:22:56,800 scenario because I do think that, you know, we've seen with 1620 01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,560 the right coaches, you can, you can put together 678, you know, 1621 01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:04,240 win seasons, but it's going to take, it's going to take 1622 01:23:04,240 --> 01:23:06,160 continued effort. It's not something that's going 1623 01:23:06,200 --> 01:23:09,120 to, you know, just happen next year and that's really 1624 01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,760 frustrating, especially when you look at the dollar differences 1625 01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:13,760 between these different schools and what they're pulling in. 1626 01:23:14,810 --> 01:23:17,250 Yeah, I mean it's just basically we should be better than every 1627 01:23:17,250 --> 01:23:19,770 school that's not in the Big 10 or the SEC and we we just need 1628 01:23:19,770 --> 01:23:23,050 to be paying higher rates and all the other schools that are 1629 01:23:23,050 --> 01:23:26,570 not in the SEC or the Big 10. But to your point, you can hire 1630 01:23:26,570 --> 01:23:29,170 the wrong guy, you can pay, you can pay somebody, you know, in 1631 01:23:29,170 --> 01:23:30,410 the top ten and they're not a good coach. 1632 01:23:30,410 --> 01:23:33,330 They're not a good coach. And so, but I think over time 1633 01:23:33,330 --> 01:23:36,530 you find the right people, you know, we should be able to buy 1634 01:23:36,530 --> 01:23:38,930 our way out of some problems and do that. 1635 01:23:38,930 --> 01:23:42,450 The other thing too is that, you know, we do bring in a lot of 1636 01:23:42,450 --> 01:23:46,060 money, but you see it. Activated for basketball. 1637 01:23:46,100 --> 01:23:48,020 You know like when we want to get out of the Archie Miller 1638 01:23:48,020 --> 01:23:51,140 contract, we can get that done if we want to get out of some 1639 01:23:51,140 --> 01:23:53,140 football contracts. You know, I'm not even talking 1640 01:23:53,140 --> 01:23:55,460 to Tom Allen, just some coordinators like Tom Allen had 1641 01:23:55,460 --> 01:23:57,460 to pay for that himself to get out of some of those. 1642 01:23:57,660 --> 01:24:00,020 The money is not always there for football. 1643 01:24:00,020 --> 01:24:02,620 When you see, when you see those numbers up there really is 1644 01:24:02,620 --> 01:24:05,220 activated in basketball. I think this will help us all in 1645 01:24:05,220 --> 01:24:07,140 basketball. That the thing that I will say 1646 01:24:07,140 --> 01:24:10,540 that I always kind of harp on that is just I always preface 1647 01:24:10,540 --> 01:24:12,380 it. I understand how this works. 1648 01:24:13,050 --> 01:24:15,850 I'm not naive. I I know how this all goes. 1649 01:24:15,850 --> 01:24:19,930 But to Dan's point in question, like there is a part where it's 1650 01:24:19,930 --> 01:24:23,650 like it is, it is tough seeing this, like man, big 10 schools 1651 01:24:23,650 --> 01:24:26,050 make an extra 50 million / a CC schools. 1652 01:24:26,050 --> 01:24:28,770 It's like then, but then on the same hand, it's like, you know, 1653 01:24:28,770 --> 01:24:31,330 we're kind of like, well, you know, we're even if we wanted to 1654 01:24:31,330 --> 01:24:33,090 get out of our coaching contracts, we can't because we 1655 01:24:33,090 --> 01:24:35,200 can't afford it. We got to find some donors to 1656 01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:36,400 pay for. It's like why? 1657 01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:39,600 Again, I I don't don't tell. I know the answer is why. 1658 01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:41,680 But it's like you hear that and it's like with with football 1659 01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:43,600 it's like well, we need a new facility, but we got to find a 1660 01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:45,840 donor first. And it's like really because you 1661 01:24:45,840 --> 01:24:49,480 guys are a nonprofit who has a 2 billion you know I use got a 1662 01:24:49,480 --> 01:24:53,280 huge, you know, funding base. They have a huge endowment 1663 01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:56,160 they're sitting on. They always, they just made $166 1664 01:24:56,160 --> 01:24:58,120 million last year and they had to spend some of it. 1665 01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:00,010 But it's like. Why is it always the donor's 1666 01:25:00,010 --> 01:25:02,290 problem? Like at some point do you get to 1667 01:25:02,290 --> 01:25:05,770 put your hand in your pocket? Like on one hand you can't do a 1668 01:25:05,770 --> 01:25:09,090 press release kissing your own ass and slapping your own back 1669 01:25:09,090 --> 01:25:11,770 on the amount of money you brought in from the big from Fox 1670 01:25:11,890 --> 01:25:15,530 and then be like, but I I really can't pay the tip well, but I 1671 01:25:15,530 --> 01:25:17,930 really need. Somebody saying again, I I know 1672 01:25:17,930 --> 01:25:20,610 why. It's just it is really annoying 1673 01:25:20,610 --> 01:25:23,850 as somebody who's a graduate and a donor and a varsity club 1674 01:25:23,850 --> 01:25:27,210 member, to always being looked at by this university. 1675 01:25:27,210 --> 01:25:29,050 What's like they can't they have alligator arms? 1676 01:25:29,170 --> 01:25:32,130 In terms of when it comes to finding any money, I I I 1677 01:25:32,130 --> 01:25:34,970 understand that frustration and and there's two things I'll say 1678 01:25:34,970 --> 01:25:39,650 in response to it. You know, A, the reason you 1679 01:25:39,650 --> 01:25:43,450 don't do it without a donor is what's happening to Cal right 1680 01:25:43,450 --> 01:25:48,810 now, who just had to pay, take loans out for $250 million worth 1681 01:25:48,810 --> 01:25:51,610 of loans to fix the football stadium that they built over the 1682 01:25:51,610 --> 01:25:53,890 Hayward fault. And now they don't have a 1683 01:25:53,890 --> 01:25:57,210 conference to be in that they don't have television money. 1684 01:25:57,370 --> 01:25:58,890 I mean, that's a real, real problem. 1685 01:25:58,890 --> 01:26:04,130 Now Cows got like a 15. Now cows got like a $15 billion 1686 01:26:04,130 --> 01:26:06,050 endowment. So they'll probably be able to 1687 01:26:06,050 --> 01:26:08,650 figure a way out of that, but that's a real bad situation. 1688 01:26:09,010 --> 01:26:13,210 The other thing is, I mean when I talk about I, U as an 1689 01:26:13,210 --> 01:26:15,970 institution not being serious about their football program 1690 01:26:15,970 --> 01:26:20,170 historically and even when we talk about the last 10-15 years 1691 01:26:20,170 --> 01:26:23,910 in terms of like what they've done there, I think it's really 1692 01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:26,470 been like, well, okay, you've got to kill what you eat, 1693 01:26:26,950 --> 01:26:29,990 athletics and football. You're not going to get like 1694 01:26:29,990 --> 01:26:32,750 general fun stuff because we don't view football as central 1695 01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:34,550 to the mission of the institution. 1696 01:26:34,550 --> 01:26:37,710 And I U is certainly not the only ones in that mix. 1697 01:26:37,910 --> 01:26:40,910 They're probably the ones for whom it looks like it's, it's 1698 01:26:40,910 --> 01:26:44,190 the most prominent. Look, we'll see. 1699 01:26:44,190 --> 01:26:47,630 I mean, I think leadership changes occur in terms of 1700 01:26:47,830 --> 01:26:52,340 universities and what they want to spend money on and it's it is 1701 01:26:52,340 --> 01:26:56,300 an unfortunately difficult sell at I U and it always has been 1702 01:26:56,300 --> 01:26:57,340 in. The reason why there hasn't been 1703 01:26:57,340 --> 01:27:02,060 more institutional commitment to improving facilities or paying 1704 01:27:02,060 --> 01:27:06,740 more money for staff or coaches is because everybody's been 1705 01:27:07,020 --> 01:27:09,540 interested in basketball. That's what's made alumni 1706 01:27:09,540 --> 01:27:12,580 excited, and that's where the university's been willing to 1707 01:27:12,580 --> 01:27:16,950 make moves and do things. And it's, you know, again, I 1708 01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:19,990 think it's one of those deals where it's a shame that 1709 01:27:19,990 --> 01:27:23,590 historically it worked out that way, because there's no reason 1710 01:27:23,590 --> 01:27:28,510 why Indiana football, from a structural perspective, should 1711 01:27:28,510 --> 01:27:33,390 be any worse than Purdue, Illinois, Minnesota, Michigan 1712 01:27:33,390 --> 01:27:34,790 State. Michigan State really is in a 1713 01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:37,710 different echelon, like there's Iowa is another one. 1714 01:27:37,750 --> 01:27:40,840 There's no reason why Indiana should be like such a tear below 1715 01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:43,520 that, but that's what the history did. 1716 01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,120 And I think despite what I would view is the best efforts of the, 1717 01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:48,640 of the, of the athletic department to fix that over the 1718 01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:53,520 last 10-15 years, it's it's hard to overcome a century plus of 1719 01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:55,840 history to get it where it needs to be. 1720 01:27:56,550 --> 01:27:58,950 And that was exactly what I was going to end on is like you and 1721 01:27:58,950 --> 01:28:01,550 Zach Osterman have talked about this a lot that yes, I agree 1722 01:28:01,550 --> 01:28:03,590 because we when you and I went to school there, Memorial 1723 01:28:03,590 --> 01:28:05,790 Stadium was just falling apart. There was kind of this it was 1724 01:28:05,790 --> 01:28:07,390 like the stalemate of game of chicken. 1725 01:28:07,390 --> 01:28:09,630 It's like, well, the football team's got to get better before 1726 01:28:09,630 --> 01:28:10,990 we spend money on. It's like we're not going to 1727 01:28:10,990 --> 01:28:12,950 spend money on to the football team gets better and it's like, 1728 01:28:12,950 --> 01:28:15,410 all right, so we'll just. Have bad facilities and a bad 1729 01:28:15,410 --> 01:28:18,130 football team staring at each other and no one's going to do 1730 01:28:18,130 --> 01:28:21,130 anything. The stadium looks a million 1731 01:28:21,130 --> 01:28:22,810 times better. They put money into it. 1732 01:28:22,810 --> 01:28:26,330 But I think as you pointed out like that, The trouble that I U 1733 01:28:26,330 --> 01:28:31,370 has is they've started funding over the last 10 to 15 years. 1734 01:28:31,850 --> 01:28:34,090 And the trouble is like they're just now getting to where they 1735 01:28:34,090 --> 01:28:35,410 should have been 10-15 years ago. 1736 01:28:35,410 --> 01:28:37,890 And you look at like you know, Tom Allen is making I think like 1737 01:28:37,890 --> 01:28:40,810 4.9 million this year or somewhere in that range. 1738 01:28:41,130 --> 01:28:43,250 And that was a huge jump from Kevin Wilson, was like, Oh my 1739 01:28:43,250 --> 01:28:45,250 gosh, it's a ton of money. It's like, all right, you know, 1740 01:28:45,250 --> 01:28:47,010 I'm just, I'm pulling this out just, you know, looking at the 1741 01:28:47,010 --> 01:28:49,650 list. Like, you know, the hypo at 1742 01:28:49,650 --> 01:28:53,250 Tennessee makes $9 million a year and it goes up from there. 1743 01:28:53,250 --> 01:28:55,650 We look at the highest coaching salaries and it's like, you 1744 01:28:55,650 --> 01:28:59,410 know, this is where, yes, these are big jumps, but it's because 1745 01:28:59,410 --> 01:29:01,450 if you don't make. I do real estate. 1746 01:29:01,450 --> 01:29:04,690 Like if you don't increase rents for 10 years, there's going to 1747 01:29:04,690 --> 01:29:07,490 be a big jump after 10 years. Like normally you do a small 1748 01:29:07,490 --> 01:29:10,690 increase every single year. So that way it's not a big pill 1749 01:29:10,690 --> 01:29:13,090 to swallow at the end. The trouble is we basically just 1750 01:29:13,090 --> 01:29:16,250 didn't do anything for 12 years and then we're now getting back 1751 01:29:16,250 --> 01:29:18,530 to 2012 market rates and it's like, oh, that. 1752 01:29:18,530 --> 01:29:21,490 It's another like if you want to get in that top 15 of coaches. 1753 01:29:22,030 --> 01:29:23,670 We're going to have to spend 7 to 10 million. 1754 01:29:23,670 --> 01:29:25,790 We have to double whatever we're paying our coach now. 1755 01:29:25,790 --> 01:29:28,710 Sure, not because, but it's that's because we just didn't do 1756 01:29:28,710 --> 01:29:30,590 enough as you said 1520 years ago. 1757 01:29:30,590 --> 01:29:32,550 And so it's we either continually or always a little 1758 01:29:32,550 --> 01:29:36,870 bit behind or we just have to take a huge jump forward and I 1759 01:29:36,870 --> 01:29:39,030 think that's the trouble Indiana's in is. 1760 01:29:39,570 --> 01:29:42,290 It's like if you want to really be with the big boys, you got to 1761 01:29:42,290 --> 01:29:44,850 be with the big boys. And those numbers are really big 1762 01:29:44,850 --> 01:29:47,890 because they've grown over the time that we've been growing. 1763 01:29:47,890 --> 01:29:50,490 We're just keeping up to where things were 15 years ago because 1764 01:29:50,490 --> 01:29:53,930 it's not like every other school stopped spending money in 2012 1765 01:29:54,010 --> 01:29:56,770 when we just started, when we decided to start spending money. 1766 01:29:56,770 --> 01:29:59,050 So exactly what you're saying, just rephrasing it. 1767 01:29:59,130 --> 01:30:01,410 But yeah. Anyway, we went way over time, 1768 01:30:01,410 --> 01:30:03,370 but this was fun. Scott, I hope you had a good 1769 01:30:03,370 --> 01:30:06,730 time with it as well. We'll have more to talk about. 1770 01:30:06,730 --> 01:30:08,690 There were a bunch of questions we weren't able to get to, but 1771 01:30:08,690 --> 01:30:10,970 you know us we'd start talking and can't stop. 1772 01:30:10,970 --> 01:30:14,130 So I appreciate all the last. Thing that you hit on to is like 1773 01:30:14,530 --> 01:30:16,610 nothing else. This screws our schedule for 24 1774 01:30:16,610 --> 01:30:19,090 completely live like that. That schedule was so nice and I 1775 01:30:19,090 --> 01:30:22,970 know we joked about it's like if any school is getting A at USC 1776 01:30:23,090 --> 01:30:27,290 home to Michigan at Washington set up that's going to be I U 1777 01:30:27,290 --> 01:30:28,920 like no question. Yep. 1778 01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:31,280 We're either going to speak this into existence or speak it out 1779 01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:32,800 of existence one way or the other. 1780 01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:35,880 So we'll see what happens but no it look it's that what you know 1781 01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:40,840 we'll I'll wait for the official confirmation that we've we're 1782 01:30:40,840 --> 01:30:43,040 screwed. I'm sure it's coming at some 1783 01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:44,800 point here probably in the next couple of months. 1784 01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:48,400 So anyway I hope you all had a great time listening and we had 1785 01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:50,400 a great time podcasting. Our thanks to our friends at 1786 01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:52,480 home Field apparel. Be sure to tune into the back 1787 01:30:52,480 --> 01:30:56,680 home network, Assembly Call, the Do the Work podcast and all the 1788 01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:01,080 other fun stuff you can find in the Assembly call community. 1789 01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:03,840 For Scott, I'm Galen, This is Crimson Cast. 1790 01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:06,440 We will catch you folks on the flip side. 1791 01:31:07,440 --> 01:31:07,960 So everybody.