Good afternoon, folks, and welcome to an emergency podcast
on the Back Home Network. I'm Galen Clavio from Crimson
Cast and joined by Tony Adrani from the IU Film Room.
And we are here. We couldn't launch last night
because it was too late by the time we got the news.
But two new IU basketball commits in the stable for the
Indiana men's basketball team. Tony, exciting times all around
as the roster slowly starting to take shape.
Thank you for jumping in in the middle of the day.
How you doing today? I'm doing well.
Always a pleasure coming here on Crimson Cast.
I don't know if I've ever been on a Crimson Cast Emergency
podcast so this is new for me. Just checking off stuff on the
bingo card right now, right? It's amazing.
If you would like to chime in, we do have our YouTube comments
section open and TJ already in there noting finally got a point
guard. We're going to talk about that.
We got some video clips we're going to play here shortly as we
talk through. Tony's been doing an amazing job
of going through looking at these players.
We've had some advance notice, Tony, on some of these guys, and
it's been nice because it's giving you plenty of time to
gather footage and do some analysis.
This is where kind of the underground world of college
portal recruiting is coming in handy, right?
Certainly. So, yeah.
The only thing that stinks is when I get a little Intel, I do
all this film dive on somebody and then they don't commit.
That one's no fun. It's one of those things where
you you can't control it, but it's just it's a deal.
You got to deal with the deal or whatever.
The main thing has to be the main thing, as Kurt Signetti
would say on all of this. And let's go ahead and dive in
though and talk through the we're going to talk through both
of the commits from yesterday and then talk in general about
what's going on in in IU basketball from a roster
perspective. But first, just a reminder were
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You'll be glad you did tell them we sent you.
We're not brought to you by the pop Tarts bowl, but I am wearing
my pop Tarts bowl quarter zip that I ordered four months ago
and then it just appeared out of the blue.
I'm not sure where that man maybe tariffs a couple podcasts.
In a row now you've mentioned these tariffs.
It's a it's tariff month. What can I say?
No tariffs on IU portal recruiting though, as a Indiana
importing players from all over the country.
And we wanted to go ahead and dive in and talk about both of
those guys. First of all, let's talk about
the player that we heard about first.
And this is a guy whose name has been floating around quite a bit
and that's taking Conner way point guard, kind of a a non
traditional stats line to some degree.
Tony, I'm going to try to play some video here.
I want to see if it'll so that we're we're I'm going to have to
do a little bit of surgery on this real quick, but I've got
some highlights that I'll play. But I wanted you to talk first
about Conner way first and and what he brings to the table for
IU as a point guard or as a guy that you could see is
potentially a starter. Yeah, I mean, he's he's exactly
the mold. I think that fits Darren debris
system and you know, maybe not as good of a shooter, but has a
nice big strong frame, very, very good defensively.
I think he had the third highest steel rate in the country last
season and then just distributes the ball, you know, assist rate
very high, I believe somewhere around 35.6 or something like
that. I mean, great assist rate, great
steal rate, doesn't shoot the ball particularly well from the
outside. Now when I was looking at some
of the film too on Connor way, you know, as you can see pulled
up here, he was 37 of 134 last year from the three-point line.
And, you know, you might see that and go, you know, that that
reminds me of yesteryear. Well, the next thing I would say
is look at everybody else's percentages as you go down that
list. But also, you know, he took a
lot of tough shots. Troy didn't have a great offense
and he still was able to get to the rim quite a bit.
I think he averaged like 15 points per game or somewhere in
that realm. And like I said, just gets to
the hole very, very well, uses that big strong frame that he's
got. But then when he gets to there,
you know, he really has a good IQ about him.
Gets the ball to the right people in the right spots, which
obviously translates to him having a high assist rate, but,
you know, just a good decision maker.
And that's who you want at your point guard, a guy that that,
you know, leads the charge on both ends of the floor.
And that's really, I think what attracted Darren Devries to
Connor way is that he plays both sides and he plays extremely
hard. And that's like, you know, in
the press conferences and everything that you heard about
Devries and his teams, it like fits that mold of of dudes that
are going to play hard. They're gritty, they grind or
whatever you want to, you know, whatever buzzword want to use.
That's Connor way. And so you know, he was Sunbelt
Player of the year, which which was fantastic.
And, you know, I'm excited to see him kind of lead the charge
for IU on both ends of the floor.
Yeah, I mean, what sticks out it's it's wild to have a assist
to turnover rate of almost 2 to one, but still have a 20%
turnover rate. Like, like his assists were off
the charts for for Troy this last year.
And you know, really, you know, the the other thing that you
noted like the steals percentage and this idea of this is a
player who's clearly taking on ball defense very, very
seriously, not necessarily something that has been a
hallmark of IU over the course of the last couple of years.
They've been kind of low on the turnover percentage market.
Wasn't a key part of what what Mike Woodson wanted to do
defensively, but especially at the point of attack, You, you
want somebody who can really disrupt the opposing teams ball
handlers. You want someone that can get in
the passing lanes quickly. This guy just looks like a dog,
you know, with, with an AW. This guy looks like someone who
works hard, athletic all over the place, and really can cover
a lot of ground the way that maybe some of the IU point
guards of the recent past haven't quite been able to.
Yeah, I mean, he got pretty good length from point guard 2 at six
three, you know, and I was looking back even at some of his
JUCO stats, his his yeah, he's moving.
He shot around like 35% from the three-point line.
So he does have that in him to to shoot at a little bit of a
higher percentage. And he's just not going to be
asked to carry the load like he was at Troy either.
You know, when you you think of who else will be on the
offensive end with him, he's going to have driving lanes
opened up because he's going to have shooters all over the
floor. So he's going to have straight
line driving opportunities and then be able to knock down an
open shot right when when the ball swung to you.
And so, yeah, so I'm excited to see kind of how that plays out.
But yeah, you noted like just just very much a guy that
Indiana hasn't necessarily seen leading the charge at the point
guard position in quite some time.
Kenneth noted in the comments, Conway's film reminds me of
Hepburn's gameplay. Miles highlights of his driving
lane reminding me of Milos Uzon. There was another comment, it
was a question, it was a couple of questions.
So Greg asked if there was a Boo booey comp potentially with
Conway. There was another question which
is a little more pertinent to Darren Devries.
How does Conway compared to Javon Smalls, who of course was
the the lead guard for debris at West Virginia last year?
Do you see any comparisons between either of those guys?
I think defensively certainly, you know, guy that's going to
get after it and be that point of attack, you know, head of the
snake if you will. But you know, offensively Javon
Small was a little bit more finesse and athletic and could
shoot the ball a little bit better, whereas Conner Way, he
really has like an old man game to him.
You know, he's he's not going to wow you with his athleticism or
his quickness. It's just like he understands
how to get the spots, understands change of pace,
change of direction. So, you know, there's a little
bit of a comparison there. But you know, ultimately, like
there's not a lot of dudes like Conner way because you know,
shootings at such a high premium these days.
I think it's probably why you saw, you know, some of the big
dogs maybe not going after Connerway as much as Indiana
really wanted them, but a lot of these other teams don't have
multiple high volume, high percentage 3 point shooters on
the floor either. That's going to open things up
where Connerway can kind of soar with the strength.
Yeah, that it's one of the things that I've been trying to
counsel people on on the show. It's like this is not what I I
think I use the whole food. Like you're shopping in the
Whole Foods produce section or the meat section.
You got to know what you're making for dinner if you're a
coach. Like you can't just go out and
grab the most expensive stuff off the shelves to go.
Because if you end up with like 3 lbs of Wagyu beef and 6 lbs of
lobster, you got a lot of meat, but you don't have anything to
like flesh the meal out. Like Indiana's got shooters.
They've got Tucker debris, they've got Lamar Wilkerson.
They needed a distributor. And I think everybody knew
Connor Enright was going to be an important piece, but not the
starting piece. He he probably could do that in
a pinch. He might rise to the occasion,
but you want to have a guy with more minutes.
And this is this is that part of the ingredient list?
Like you need someone who can go out, who can distribute the
basketball effectively, who can, you know, get after it on
defense, can shoot when they drive.
And I think that's the other thing with him.
It's like you. The whole idea of spacing, as
you've talked about many times, isn't just spacing for the sake
of getting shooters out there. It's to open up the lane.
And you, if you're opening up the lane, you need someone who
can take advantage of the fact that they're one-on-one with a
defender that can't handle them. That seems like exactly what
this particular player can provide to IU, given the rest of
the offense. Absolutely, and and that's
what's exciting about it, right, because Indiana just hasn't had
that really since, you know, the Tom Crean era and guys that are
just able to space the floor and you just see a fun dynamic
offense that the ball's moving, it's popping, guys are attacking
close outs, those types of things.
Like that's obviously what Connerway is going to be tasked
with doing is getting Indiana into that offense.
You know, they debris talked about that 12 seconds or less.
So he's going to be pushing the pace.
But then you mentioned in right too, like Conner, Wayne Enright
can share the floor together too.
If you want to play a little bit of a different style, you want
to have multiple ball handlers on the floor with some shooters,
you want to go a little bit more small balls.
So like that's what's nice too. As you see this roster start to
build out, as you see guys that are kind of multi positional or
could play a couple different spots, you know, if you get in
foul trouble or injuries or whatever may happen is like
there's guys on this team now that they can kind of fill
multiple roles. And Conway is one of those like
you, you primarily want him on the ball probably, but you can
move him off the ball if you want to get, you know, if you
want to have an in right run the offense or you want Wilkerson to
kind of initiate actions or run debris is kind of a point
forward type of action. Like Conorway can still play off
the ball and he's a threat, not necessarily from deep, but he's
a threat that he's once he has the ball, he's going to make
good decisions with it and defenses still have to respect
that. Yeah, absolutely.
So you know, you think about that combination like if
Indiana's actually got their one, their two and their three
now set between Conner Way, Wilkerson and Debris, that's a
great starting point. And and you're talking about,
what, two of the top 10 three-point shooters in the
Portal? Maybe two of the top five?
You know, it's hard to say. Totally.
Depends on how you look at it. And then you've now got a guy
who who does a lot of the things you need.
One of the things I'm struck with, and we're going to go back
and look at this here in a minute, but I'm curious your
thoughts on this. If you go and look at that, that
that sheet that I put up earlier on, I'll call this back up.
I'm going to come back to this a couple of times, folks.
One of the things I'm noticing with almost everybody that's
being brought in, they're all incredibly high minutes, people
at their old institutions. Like you look at Tatan
Connerway, 300 and 85th in the country in minutes played last
year, Wilkerson was 47th in the country in minutes played.
Reed Bailey was 116th. Josiah Miles was 200 and 92nd.
Luke Goody was 89th, obviously. Sorry, that was his offensive
rating. My mistake.
But even someone like Tucker Devries, he didn't play that
much last year, but the year before it, Drake, he was 146 in
the country in minutes. What do you take from that?
I mean, these are a lot of high usage guys, high minutes guys.
You don't normally see all of those players coming together on
a team. What is the thought process here
if you're Darren Devries? Well, I think what it showcases
more than anything, first and foremost is that Debris has a
plan and he's good at selling it because it's not easy to sell.
I mean, granted, it's a little bit easier now because you
there's money involved, right? So selling a less role for more
amount of money does make that blow a little bit easier to
withstand. But still you have to you have
to sell a vision and a plan for guys that are like you said,
have been high usage, high minutes.
And what does that mean for them?
And how do you do that in your recruiting pitch to say, Hey,
we've got XY and Z coming in? Because those are the questions
the agents and the players are asking, right?
Like, hey, you've got so and so coming in and so and so coming
in, like, how do I fit into this?
And so for me, I think it's, it's awesome that that the
breeze is selling this and it's, it's resonating, right?
Because obviously all these guys aren't going to be able to play
all those minutes. And so to me, that's the first
thing that that gives me some confidence as an IU fan is like,
look, there's there's a lot of guys that have played a lot of
college basketball too, Like, and it's not like this is the
first time they played a lot of minutes.
Like a lot of these are three and four year guys that have
played high minutes the duration of their college basketball
careers. And so now you're selling.
Yeah, a little bit of a lesser role, but sometimes that's a
good thing. Like, you know, when you're
selling that you're like, remember how you felt in
February and your legs felt like they had LED in them?
Like, you know, we can we can mitigate that by having you play
6 less minutes a game. And we're going to be fresh for
that March run. We're going to go on because or
we're going to be playing into April and we need you fresh.
So there's a lot of good things involved with that.
But then when your debris, yeah, when you're trying to figure
out, all right, how do all these pieces fit together?
I think it it goes back to what I said earlier.
And like there's guys that are multifaceted, can play multiple
positions and really that allows you to adapt to the opponent
game to game. Like, you know, you could say
like this guy's going to play 20 minutes per game, but that might
mean 30 against one opponent and 10 against another, right?
And so to me, that's the nice thing is that you've got a lot
of versatility in your lineups and you can kind of adapt them
to to who your opponent is or just who's playing well that
night. I know that's somewhat of a
foreign concept as well around here of like, hey, ride the hot
hand a little bit, right? And so you you have the
opportunities to do things like that.
And so as an IU fan, I think that's exciting.
Yeah, it it certainly is. Let's jump to the other player
that signed yesterday. This was actually the first of
the two players that signed or announced, I guess that he was
going to be coming to IU, had the graphic and everything.
And that is Josiah Miles, who, if you look at this chart that
I've got up, is IS6662O5, an unusual player in that he's a
sophomore according to eligibility and numbers that
don't jump off the page quite as much in terms of shooting except
for volume. Shot 224 threes last year, hit
33%, shot 162 two pointers, hit 56%.
Was in the top 300 in defensive rebounding percentage and that
was with a ton of minutes played.
You did a deep dive video wise into Josiah Miles.
What do you see out of this player and how does he fit into
this tapestry? Yeah, again, just a lot of
length, young in, you know, relatively speaking for this
roster especially, but young but also has a lot of experience,
you know, played, has played a lot of college basketball.
I think he played in, what, almost 60 games now as a college
basketball player. So yeah, it has a lot of length
to them, can get shots up, and you're certainly going to see
that volume go down for him. And with volume going down,
typically you're going to see percentages going up, and that's
what Indiana's going to need him to be.
He's a good straight line driver, really does.
He favors his right hand a lot, but he still figures out a way
to get to the hoop. What I really like about him is
when he gets to the hoop, he plays off 2 feet, and that's a
big J right thing that he talks about is playing off 2 feet.
You have more control. You still have both pivot feet
that you can use things like that and and Miles is very good
at that. And then, you know, defensively
he's got some length to him, you know, can guard multiple
positions, which is nice, which is Indiana's going to need, you
know, and you can just adapt. So for him, yeah, like you said,
not not like a hyper efficient player, not somebody that's just
going to jump off the page at you when you're looking at him
and like transfer port, transfer portal rankings and stuff.
But to me, that gives me a little bit of comfort too,
because it's like Debris isn't just going after the big fish.
He's going after guys that he thinks fit whatever he's trying
to accomplish, right? And so that's what I like about
this pickup in particular is like, look, Indiana identified
him. I don't think he was on
anybody's radar. That's like a fan until Monday.
It was announced like, hey, this guy's visiting tomorrow and by
Wednesday he's got a recruitment locked up.
So that's kind of a cool thing too with with this regime is
like they really seem to be kind of operating stealthily.
And, and you know, like I said, nobody really knew this was
coming until it basically happened.
And so I like it. I think it's a good pick up.
You got a guy with with multiple years to to kind of grow and,
and have some continuity, hopefully moving forward in the
years following this. So, you know, and at the end of
the day, like a dude that averaged 15 points per game as a
college basketball player, nothing to shake a leaf at.
No. And you know, I was a little bit
like, OK, how does this player fit?
Like where you know, 'cause you look at the the efficiency
numbers by themselves and they don't, like I said, they don't
exactly jump off the page. And North Florida was not that
great of a team last year, but I was really struck with Miles in
particular by how important he was to their offense down the
stretch of this season. I mean, if you go back to last
year, starting on December 1st, he only had one game.
The entire rest of the season where he scored in single
figures, you know, every other game was he was a double figure
scorer and and you know, he had he had a 22 point game, he had a
another 22 point game, a 20 point game, a bunch of games he
scored 18. So you know the the idea you've
got this guy who can come in. He can he's certainly not afraid
to shoot the three, but he can also drive.
He can also rebound. This strikes me as one of those
almost like that's kind of like Will Sheehy's role on that
20/12/2013 team. Like a Swiss army knife.
A guy you're not expecting to start, but if you can get 18 to
24 minutes out of him, maybe more on certain nights, less on
others. You absolutely need that type of
a player, especially one that could potentially play 3
different positions for you. Yeah, You know, what's cool
about him too is you dive into the numbers a little bit deeper
and from a spot up perspective where he's just catching and
shooting, you know, an effective field goal percentage of 58.3%.
And that's more the role that Indiana will need him to play is
be a spot up shooter, knock him down when you're open and then,
you know, in in ball screens. He was in the 80th percentile
when he had the ball on his hands and receiving ball screen.
So again, you let when you put these pieces together, it allows
them to sort their strengths a bit more.
You know, you're not relying on a guy like Miles to go ISO
somebody every time down the floor where he may have had to
do it North Florida as well. And then what we haven't even
touched on yet is that he's a really good rebounder, you know,
and and that's something that's going to be integral for Darren
Devries program. And especially, let's say Reed
Bailey does end up being their center and, and the guy that
they utilize moving forward kind of as their their number 15.
You're going to need help rebounding the basketball from
your your wings and your guards. And so when you accumulate guys
like Miles who go rebound the basketball well from kind of a
wing spot, you know that that certainly aids the fact of, you
know, if you've got a little bit more of an undersized team.
I'd like to thank we have 21188 people watching us right now
between YouTube and and Twitter. So salute to all you folks for
skipping work and coming out and watching what's going on.
And we've actually got Ryan Phillips who it looks like is,
has joined us here from the West Coast.
Ryan, I guess the request for some time off work.
Actually it worked this time, right?
Yeah, just a little bit a couple minutes to celebrate Commitment
Day. Yeah, I've been I've been
listening a long guys and and Tony, you do such a great job of
of breaking these guys down in their fits and everything.
But the one thing that has stood out to me is this seems going to
shoot a lot like whether or not, you know, the guys have high
percentage or not, they're not afraid to shoot it.
And the other thing that I've noticed is if they don't shoot
threes, they shoot at the rim. And I think this program has
banished the long 2 from its from its playbook, which thank
you God, but but you know, you can kind of see the philosophy
coming together with the people they're getting in.
And I think that one thing that's, you know, the type of
player you get in the portal in your first year may not be
representative of what you're going to search for in
recruiting and stuff going forward.
It's you're getting you're you're picking from what you've
got. And so he may not be the perfect
player, but what they're going after guys who a have had
success at the college level, they're not banking on talent,
they're banking on production. And and you know, and obviously
you're picking guys, you think you can translate that
production. Wait, production over potential?
Where have I heard that before? But it's, you know, it's it's
very obvious. And the guys they've picked, I
mean, they have gone after and I'm sure that they're guys they
haven't, you know, they've wanted or, or, or and and
haven't gotten. But the the guys they're taking
have produced at the college level.
And it's, you know, that's kind of what everyone was begging for
in a head coach, as well as somebody who had produced at the
college level. And and you got that with the
reason now you're starting to see that come together with the
roster so far. For those who are watching live
on video, we're playing some highlights.
I finally figured out the audio issues.
So we're we're watching some Josiah Miles move into the rim
right now. And Tony, this kind of opens up
the larger question now that you know, let's talk about the fit
with Wilkerson, with Bailey, with Enright, with some of these
other players possibilities still of Luke Goody coming back
and you've obviously got Trent Sizzly coming in.
There will be other signings. So I guess maybe first with what
we know that IU has, like where do you see the synergy working
out the best? Ryan kind of pointed out like
the shooting locations, you know, but what else about this
particular combination of players from the film you've
seen? We're we're watching some some
Conner way stuff now from Troy and and you can see just he's
got an interesting body. Like I'm just noticing this now
that I'm watching this. He reminds me of this will sound
weird, but like the archetype of the guard that plays for
Arkansas, whatever era, like kind of slightly stocky in that
like you can't blow him over with a strong breeze.
There's a lot of physicality there.
A guy you don't want to get in front as you see of as they
drive to the rim because you're probably going to end up on your
butt. This is not an A physical
archetype of a player that I think I've seen in Indiana in a
long time and that I find exciting, especially in light of
there was a comment we had earlier on in the chat that I
thought was worth bringing up from Tony.
You know, the other thought I have with these players that
remind me of any player you see when you watch an SEC game.
A player that's athletic, can score, can shoot and play modern
basketball. What, what are your thoughts on
that, Tony? Yeah, I think that's the
exciting part, right? Is like these look like guys you
see playing deep into March or team, you know, those teams you
see playing deep into March, dynamic guard play can can shoot
the basketball, distribute the basketball.
You know, all of the things that we we just watched.
You know, I'm not trying to say that this team that Debris's
assembling is a final 4 caliber team or anything of that sort.
But what I'm saying is that he's he understands that, you know,
the the way that Indiana's played basketball the past eight
seasons, really, I mean, really even 9 in Crean's last year
isn't how modern basketball and teams win these days.
And, you know, we're watching Wilkerson right now just
absolutely fire 3 after three. I posted a video on Twitter an
hour or two ago that was all seven of the players that we
know are playing next season hitting 3, some of them very
deep threes and just said, you know, projecting some rain at
Assembly Hall next next season. Don't, don't show this video to
Jared Morris, by the way. He'll need a moment.
He'll have to step. Down I'm I'm guessing there's a
few in the 2000 here Harborough. 'S in a hot towel.
I mean, yeah. Yeah, seriously.
No, give the man. Ryan I think the thing that
strikes me about Wilkerson and and it's the same thing with
Debris's footage, how quick the release is on these shots, which
again, it's felt like even the best IU shooters have had a a
somewhat laborious delivery system to get the ball to the
basket. You know what it is, honestly,
Galen, is confidence. It's you're not thinking about
it. You're open, you catch the ball,
you shoot it and and that's something that Indiana has not
had since the green era. Really.
I mean, they haven't had, I mean, you know, one or two here
or there, but not consistently guys who just don't have a
conscience. And if they're open, they're
confident they can shoot it and they just they go.
And you would see that from time to time.
Like early this season, you saw with Mackenzie and Baca, if he
got a ball in the three-point, you know, and at the three-point
line, he was open, he would just fire.
But that didn't last all season, you know, and and I think that
just the confidence of being able to take those shots and
it's contagious. You know, if everybody else is
shooting threes, you're going to also, if you're open, take it
and not question it. And I think that those kind of
things build like a momentum within the team to build that
confidence for shooting. And it's just been somebody
that's been absent the program for a long time and almost a
decade now. And that's that's scary when
that's the way basketball is moving and has it's not moving.
It has moved. Yeah.
And and and Indiana was just lagging behind.
And it's really is that simple. It's just knowing that if you
take a three, you are you are at the advantage because it's three
points versus 2. And if you can make them and you
have the confidence in making them, you're actually do it.
Even a miss, if you're confident in shooting it, that you're
going to come back and make one. I mean, how many times do we see
an IU guy miss the first in a game and then not take any more
the rest of the game? It happened all the time.
And these guys, again, This is why proving it previously is so
important. These guys have done this in
college, you know, and, and the numbers barred out, it's not
just they aren't just high percentages, they're making a
solid number per game and shooting a solid number per
game. So it's not just in theory, they
can make a lot. They have made a lot.
And the three-point line is the same distance in every gym,
every college gym in America, you can do it.
And so now obviously they got to figure out the big man situation
and what they're doing there. But the perimeter archetype
they're building right now, I say let me one thing that's have
limited time. There's one thing I want to say
about this too, is what you are proving here is you're taking
guys and showing the next group that may come in what you are
doing. So you get a guy who shoots a
lot of threes. You run plays for him.
That way when you're recruiting a shooter, you can put on the
film and say, we're putting you there, but we're going to make
you better. You're going to be better than
that. You're going to take a point
guard who distributes a lot and you're going to say, look,
there's our guy. There's, you know, Enright or
Connerway, like distributing, playing defense.
That's what we're going to do with you.
But we're going to make you better than that.
And, you know, you know, enhancing those skills going to
get you to the NBA. That's what you're doing here is
not just building your team for next year.
We're building the archetype for the future that you can then
show to people you want to bring in.
And that's something I think that the Woodson era was really
bad at doing. And there's a reason why certain
guys who are really interested in coming to Indiana did not
wind up in Indiana because they couldn't show them this is how
you fit. This is what we want.
This is what we need already. Darren Devries is doing that and
building a very building a very specific brand and type of
basketball he wants to play that he can then sell on top of that.
Yeah. Not only that, too, the other
programs recruiting those players could actually show how
they wouldn't be used effectively.
And that was the negative recruiting aspect that that was
really, really haunting Indiana under the, you know, the last
two regimes. I'm not just giving it to Mike
Woodson. Artie Miller was the same way.
Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's been so hard
for IU coaches to overcome the lack of effective offensive tape
to show players because look, you, you need players who are
going to buy in on defense. But this era, you have to have
guys that can either shoot or score or distribute.
Like if you can't do any of those.
And I feel like Indiana's had their fair share of guys who had
to have other people help them get their offense to be able.
I think this is where that the Darren Debris is higher.
It's why I think all of us were as optimistic as we were about
it because this is not a guy who has to go in with no film of his
prior coaching stops. Like he can just point them to
what he did at Drake. He can point them to what they
did at the beginning of the year at West Virginia.
And that's going to go a long way for guys.
And as we were talking about on Crimson Cast last night, I love
the strategy that that is being employed right now where it's
mostly older players. I know we've had some folks that
have said, hey, shouldn't we be getting some players for the
future? Like I'm, I'm, I'm uncomfortable
with how old this team is looking.
I would argue at this point, Ryan, like you're foolish if
you're not and expecting 70 percent, 60% of your roster to
turn over every year and have to go back into the portal, at
least until you can get your recruiting up and running.
And that's going to take a couple of years.
And I think a lot more success like the Indiana brand.
It's not toxic right now, but it's just another program in the
eyes of a lot of players. You look at the successes that
some of the top teams have had in pulling in your high level
high school recruits. They're doing that because of
the successes they've built off the course of the last few
years. Yeah, you've got to build those
pipelines that's not there yet. This is a really smart way of
assembling a roster that really needs some success early on, not
just for recruiting, but for establishing the connection with
the fans that everybody needs. Yeah.
And I think, look, do you need to add some younger players to
this roster? Yes, absolutely, because you
need continuity from year to year somewhere.
It doesn't have to be the whole roster.
It doesn't have to be 80% of the roster, but there needs to be
some kind of carry over continuity so that you can get
guys, you know, the coach can. He shows up for this show, but
not ours. It's.
But we've got we've got a Crimson cast emergency pod with
Tony who's never been on one and two assembly call guys after I
just hosted an assembly call emergency pod with no assembly
call guys. This is we're in like back home.
True network. We're an amoeba.
Guys and also Galens wearing a pop Tarts bullshit.
So that's somehow factors in. Factors in.
Yeah, but what I was going to say is, you know, there's one
thing like coaching continuity is great because you're teaching
the same system. You're teaching all that stuff,
but player having guys on the court who know the system,
teaching it to their teammates is just is almost as important
because there's some level of comfort.
So I do think there needs to be some level of carryover from
year to year. But yes, in your first year, you
should expect him because also the pressure to win year to year
in the NIL era is so high, you're going to need veterans.
Does that mean that I think they shouldn't go after some high
school guys that have shaken loose from the tree?
No, I absolutely think they should.
Or if there are transfers that are, you know, just finished
their freshman year, sophomore year and maybe can be backups to
start, you know, at at Indiana, yes, I think they should do
that. But at the same time, your main
chunk of roster in a first year of a new coach, if you've got
the money to do it, are going to be veterans.
Jared Morris, our our founding father and host of Assembly call
joining us here in the middle of the day.
Good to have you on Jared. I, I said earlier after the
montage that we showed from the, the various sightings, you were
going to need a, a cigarette and a hot towel after viewing it.
I, I mean, what are your, what's your, what's your overall
feeling right now with the two commits yesterday, the Wilkerson
commit before and just the assemblage of talent that is
coming together right now in Bloomington?
You know, you posted in the discord the screenshots of the
Kenpom pages for these players and just looking at the amount
of three-point attempts. There we go.
Yeah, from, from some of these guys.
Like I wasn't aware that people could take that many 3 pointers
and I'm I'm not sure that I, I, I am still, I'm not sure I'll
believe it until I see it. Well.
You know, but there was that great stat that Jared Kelly from
pigs.com tweeted out yesterday, which I'll, I'm finding here
real quick that said the, the, and that this was I believe
before the, the Conner Way signing, but Indiana never made
more than 211 three pointers in a single season under either
Archie Miller or Mike Woodson. Indiana's 5 transfer commits at
that point had made 256 total last year.
And that was with Tucker Devries only playing eight games.
It's insane. It is apparently possible,
Jared. Who knew, right?
Well, I'm. Yeah, it's, it's amazing.
It's true. Here, here's here's what I think
is, you know, the obvious caveats are this, right?
There's a lot of guys that are going to be transferring up a
level and you never quite know how that's going to work out.
You know what I think you look at the roster how it is right
now, there's pretty, you know, clear glaring need for some rim
protection, some rebounding. So like it's not like everything
is is perfect, right? But I think at the at an
absolute minimum, you can say with the pieces that they're
bringing in, this offense is going to look totally different
and in ways that we've been wanting.
So whether you're optimistic or not, you should absolutely be
interested and intrigued. Like at the bare minimum of what
the offense is going to look like.
What I am really encouraged by is what appears to be the vision
for how Darren Devries wants to build a team and how he wants to
run an offense. You know, with just the the guys
that they have in terms of their skill level, how some of the
pieces fit together. I mean, to me, a guy like Conner
Way is just a perfect compliment when you have Wilkerson and
Devries as your other wings. And especially then like if you
get a guy like Goody or someone else, you can make threes, play
in the four again, you're probably going to give up
something defensively and from a rebounding perspective, but I
don't know how you guard that. And and I mean, we haven't
really seen it. So I'm actually not sure how you
run it as an offense and I'm very intrigued to see so.
So that's what I would say is there's still work to be done.
There's still questions about how all these guys are going to
come up to the next level. Like, I get all that, yadda,
yadda. But man, I am just really
intrigued, more so than I have felt in a long time about what
this is going to look like when those guys are on the court.
And that to me is just a great feeling to have rather than, OK,
it's going to be the same thing, but maybe it'll be better.
It's like this is a paradigm shift for how we're running the
program that we've really, really needed.
And you can see it clearly by the kind of guys they're
targeting and how they're going to fit together.
Tony, we've heard in the chat and Jared mentioned it as well
that the need for a, a some size.
How does this play? I mean, you got to Reed Bailey.
I mean, are you, where, where do you anticipate Bailey starting?
Because I'm anticipating if they're going to play the four
out style that we've seen the you're not going to have a
traditional big all the time necessarily on the floor and
maybe not even starting. But how do you see all of this
fitting together? And and where do you think they
need to look in terms of the type of, of physicality and size
that they might try to pick up? Yeah, I think what's important
to know is that, you know, last year Debris used Imani Hansbury
6-8 at Center for a large portion of the season.
And so he's not, I guess he's not just going to play a big
because they're a big like he's going to.
He's got a style that he wants to play, a system he wants to
play. Now, will he take A7 footer that
can step out and knock down some shots and is a good rebounder,
rim protector? Absolutely.
Of course he wouldn't. But with that said, they
obviously need another big because you're going to need
some depth there, especially when you're playing the big 10.
I anticipate them trying to get somebody that's got some more
athleticism to them, can protect the rim and can rebound pretty
well too, because you're in the big 10.
Like I don't think you should build your roster to win the big
10 necessarily, but you still have to be able to compete there
to get yourself into the tournament, right.
So I'd anticipate some some rim protection, you know, maybe
somebody with a little weight on them as well, just to to be able
to guard some of these, you know, 7 footers and and bigger
teams that that play in the big 10.
But I personally, I think obviously as it stands right
now, Reid Bailey's the starting 5, but I wouldn't be shocked if
that is how this plays out where that's kind of your guy that
that starts and you know, maybe he's 20 minutes per game or so
and you've got another five that plays 20 minutes per game.
But it's really funny even having this conversation now,
like where's Indiana going to get bigs?
Like, you know, that's, that's been Our Calling card for for
several years now. So the fact that you know,
Indiana's kind of guard heavy right now, it's a nice change of
pace, but it has people a little on edge.
Now they're like, wait, where's where's the big guys like it?
It's going to be a completely new style place.
There's. Like a 12 step program.
Ryan. Wean ourselves off of big man,
correct? Yeah.
And and I think that also you have to wean yourself off of
transfer rankings because as you as you guys mentioned before I
came on, they're not building talent, they're building a team.
And, and I think that like you, it's, it's not about their star
ranking, although, you know, over time, you see high school
recruiting rankings, the teams that get the best players wind
up in the Final four. I mean, typically.
And then there's teams that defy that, you know, occasionally,
but in general, teams that are consistently in the Final four
are do get the best players. But in the transfer portal,
you're playing for next year a lot of the time in the transfer
portal. And So what you're trying to do
is put the pieces together that work.
And it's more important to get a lower tier guy who fits with the
other four guys on the court than it is to get a higher tier
guy that the puzzle piece doesn't fit.
You've got to cut some edges off it and jam it in in the into
place. I mean, that is what's important
is the team, not the player. And so getting guys who work
together is what matters, not where they rank on 24/7, you
know, transfer rankings. And yet, Jared, they're putting
together a team that looks on paper like it fits really well
together and is pretty highly ranked in the Transfer Porto
rank. So it's like they're getting
through with Worlds to some degree.
No, absolutely, absolutely. And and the other thing I will
say, you know, I do have some questions about how this is
going to work defensively, but I would rather come out of an
offseason having questions defensively than offensively
because I think we've spent eight years for the most part,
it feels like kind of recruiting to a defensive system and then
trying to fit those pieces in offensively.
And so it appears that that is kind of going in the opposite
direction now, which is fine for me.
You know, I, I, I, I would rather us build that way.
And, you know, if you're going to, you know, maybe have a
little bit of a hole in rim protection, then, you know,
Tony, what do you need to combat that?
You've got to have a great point of attack defender, which I
think Conner way is. You want to have size on the
perimeter, which we do. And I, I don't know how good
Wilkerson and, and those guys are defensively, but they're at
least they at least have size. They're at least long and they
used to have at least have moderate steel rates.
So at least if you're going to be disruptive on the perimeter,
that can kind of help you compensate for some of that
other stuff. And we'll have to see, you know
who else they bring in. But I am absolutely fine if the
pieces seem to fit together more offensively than defensively.
Let's figure out the other stuff because I feel like it's easier
for a coach to fit that in and develop that than if you're
trying to just like mask severe offensive deficiencies all
season long. Well, I mean, it, it, it takes
out having to play slow. You might still play slow, but
it takes out having to play slow because of the, the way that you
can spread the floor offensively and get guys into position and,
and come down the floor. And now you've got a guy who can
handle the ball and get into the right position.
But it's also exciting, Tony, you know, on the offensive side,
you've got multiple distributors.
Reed Bailey, when he's out there is almost like a point forward
to some degree defensively, I, I also wonder how does this fit
together? But I'll, I'll note that in the
last three years of Darren Devries's time as a head coach,
his teams have finished 40th, 73rd and 15th in Kenpom
defensive efficiency. That really bodes well, given
that he clearly has kind of unlocked something in his own
coaching that makes them more defensively efficient.
If they can figure out how to harness this group and get them
to play both ways. I think, you know, especially
with the steals, like it's going to be a different type of
defense than we're used to, one that isn't necessarily
predicated just on lowering the opponent's shooting.
This may be a team that's really focused on generating turnovers,
may be really focused on trying to grab offensive rebounds and
then push the ball down the floor or I guess defensive
rebounds, keep them off the offensive boards.
That's going to be really intriguing.
And we have some great transition 3 point shooters too,
which helps you maximize if you're going to do that.
Sorry, I think I interrupted you.
Tony, you can shoot the reason transition that's.
You're allowed to. That's a rule apparently, is
that you are allowed to. You have to wait for the rest of
the team to get to the defensive team to get down the court.
You can just go. Yeah, I mean on the defensive
front, like what are you, what are you seeing here?
Yeah, I mean, it's, I've said this on a few different shows
and podcasts, but you know, it's kind of a cuss word cuz they do
use pack line defense, but it's it's very well drilled and
obviously debris has something there.
You know, you noted West Virginia defense is what carried
them last year after Tucker went down.
And then I believe that another injury as well to one of their
top guys and they really had to just hone in on the defensive
end, which to that point hadn't necessarily really been Devries
calling card, right? Yeah, everything had kind of
been about his offense and his system and that four out one in
stuff. But you know, when I looked at
West Virginia's defense last year, you noted it.
They had a lot of guys that could play a lot or guard a lot
of different positions and they just played hard, like they just
got after it. And that's not something you can
necessarily quantify. And I know that it like it's
it's hard to really describe like what playing hard means,
but you watch his teams and you just see that.
And to me it always starts to the point of attack.
And that was Javon small last year.
Connor way is very, very disruptive in how he guards the
ball. And you know, when you can just
disrupt the other teams point guard that disrupts their flow,
obviously just takes them out of what they want to do in their
initial point of attack. And then everything from there,
you can kind of blow up. And and obviously, like you
noted, he's got a good system that he feels comfortable with.
He's going to drill that, he's going to coach that.
It's not like he had all these holdovers from West Virginia
that that understood his system that he brought with him there
like last year for West Virginia was a brand new team.
He built that defense from the ground up.
That's the part that's most encouraging to me is that it was
a new thing with new players and he made it work.
He didn't, he didn't import his entire roster like some guys do
or whatever. He had some but it was a brand
new thing and they were able to be that good, especially without
2, with two players, you know, the key players missing a lot of
the season. Absolutely.
A lot of it ends up being adaptational and, and it's who
you're playing against and what's really going to be
fascinating. You're going to have a a pretty
veteran team. Obviously you're going to have
some new pieces. Trent Sisley coming in as a
freshman, you know, I think has a a chance to play and
contribute, you know, given what happens, we obviously still need
to to hear what happens on the Luke Goody front.
Someone asked if Luke Goody would fit into this mix.
Yes, absolutely. Like this, This does a far
better job of unlocking Luke Goody's potential and abilities
from a system perspective, I often times felt like Goody was
almost creating spacing by himself last year as opposed to
being able to insert himself into space that the system was
creating for him. But you know, I, I'll say in
terms of like the, the overall structure, they're going to have
to hit the ground running, Jared, because you've got the
Marquette game early on, you've got the Louisville game, you've
got the Kentucky game. Those are already on the on the
docket and this is great. Like this is really going to be
a proof of concept right off the bat of of how these offensive
and defensive systems set up, how they're able to get flow
going and and how they measure up against teams that have a
high level of talent. You're going to need that going
into Big 10 season because it is going to be a very different
kind of setup and a different type of roster composition than
most of the rest of the conference is engaging in.
And I'm very curious to see how that plays out.
Yeah, You know, and there was a a point made in the discord.
I don't I don't remember who made it, you know, in terms of,
you know, what else Coach Debris should look for as he's
recruiting. And the point was made like, I'd
like to get some kind of younger developmental guys now, you
know, are we, you know, a little bit too old with some of these
guys. And my point on that is get as
much experience as you can to make this year as good as
possible. Because given what the last
eight years have been and kind of given some of the skepticism
people have right now, I think what Indiana needs is a season
like what Michigan had and a season like what Louisville had,
where you come out, you hit the ground running, it's successful,
you make the tournament. And now everybody relaxes and is
like, OK, we got our goal for five years, now we can settle
in. And now I think if either one of
those schools takes a little bit of a step back this year, you
know, they've built some trust in a little bit of runway.
Like I think that's the difference in college basketball
now. I actually don't think a coach
gets immediate runway. I think you've got to show some
immediate results and then the patience comes.
And so I think do whatever you can, get as much experience so
you can hit the ground running with guys who just know how to
play, who have proven production.
And then you might be able to, you know, as you maybe do a
little bit more high school recruiting, which makes some
sense because now he can recruit a different caliber of player in
Indiana. But it's going to take a while
for those relationships to build.
Because to your point, Galen Indians, I mean, you got to come
out. Maybe you don't have to win all
of those games, but you probably need to win one or two of them.
You certainly need to play well in them and build some momentum
going into Big 10 play because that's what's going to get
people on your side now and get everybody going in the right
direction. And I I don't think that's
always been the case, but in the new era of college basketball, I
really think it is. We're going to wrap in about 8
minutes. Ryan, I know you got to go
first, So what else you got for us?
Just I, I think it's, it's a good day, you know, I mean,
it's, it's when you start, I think that it's a good day and
they've started to put the pieces together, but it's not
done yet. So, you know, there is, there
needs to be remaining patients from people because you don't
even know. I mean, it's seven guys.
I think now for next year, pending Luke Goody and you still
need a front court, you know, so I mean, it's not done yet, but
but this is if you know from where we were last week when
people were like, there's like two players on this team.
What are we doing? It's like, well, now there's
there's a team, it's starting to come together.
You can no longer use the John Calipari.
There is no team quote. And and so I think that people
have patience, but you're starting to see what is being
put together and what is being put together is going to be a
dynamic offense that is modern in its ability.
And and Jared, I mentioned this before, and this is got to be
the thing that makes you happiest is none of these guys
shoot long twos. And so that is gone.
Like the shot that was the most common in Indiana's offense
other than a layup in the last decade is gone.
These guys shoot at the rim or they shoot threes.
And that is modern college basketball.
So not only has he got the system that does that, he has
the players to do that now, too. And it's just it's a good day to
be a Hoosier. I think that, you know, you're
starting to see it come together.
You're starting to see the optimism.
Jared Morris hopped on an afternoon podcast.
You can just tell there is optimism and hope here.
And, and everybody's, everybody's on board.
It's, it's I, you know, but I haven't seen this kind of
optimism in the Indiana fan base in a long time.
And, and I, I think it's great to see.
And I'm, I'm, it makes me happy to see everybody kind of excited
for a new day, like a real new day building the right way.
It's it's exactly what you need, I think a fan base that's
desperate for something to latch onto.
And it's a long offseason, Ryan, as we know.
So you know, the, the, if you can feel, I know people were a
bit optimistic last year with the portal.
So there's still some arm's lengthness about it all, but
it's this feels like more of a, we've got a system, let's build
to that rather than let's go get the best available players,
which kind of felt like the MO from last year A. 100%.
I know, Ryan, you got to get out of here.
So great to see you. Thank you for having on.
Enjoy the rest of the day. Tony, let me go to you next as
we kind of go through our last wrap around here.
Any other outstanding items or just general overview thoughts
that you've got right now given what we're seeing with this
roster as it's shaping up? Excited, I mean, that's that's
really what it comes down to is I'm excited to see all these
things together. You know, as you mentioned, like
expectations are, are should be tempered a bit.
I think just based on what we've seen in kind of winning the
offseason, whatever. But like it's OK to be excited.
You know too as well. This is a new era, new regime,
new style system players like everything involved is new, like
the whole staff is new. So it's it's exciting to me that
it's just something fresh. Obviously I'm also excited that
there might be an overseas trip this summer.
We'll we'll be able to see these guys play earlier than than
October, which is exciting as long as the, you know, there's
some sort of video involved with that.
But yeah, overall I think it's clear there in the breeze has a
process and a plan. And those are, you know, it's
very much a sig esque kind of offseason.
Like, you know, just the buzzwords out there kind of
moving stealthily, like all of that.
To me, it's things we saw in a program that was successful,
obviously this just this past fall and SIG building from the
ground up. So yeah, just super excited
about what's happening with Indiana basketball and as the
pieces start coming together and you know, what's fun is there's
still 567 more guys to go. Tony, if if they end up doing an
overseas trip to Italy, I expect you to follow them from venue to
venue, Grateful Dead style, making bootleg video of each
game. I'm in.
I assume the back home network will fund that, so sure, let's
go. We'll be, we'll be donating
plasma to try to fund your travel.
I think that's the only way we're going to get to that.
Yeah, no, but Jared, I mean, the optimistic tones, obviously this
is something I think people have been waiting on and it, it real,
obviously, if you want to ask questions, there's a ton of
questions you can ask. But I, as I said on the last
emergency pod, it really is important, I think to give the
process a chance to play out. And we said this like 3 weeks
ago when people were freaking out about a lack of portal
commitments and this idea where are we going to have enough guys
to have a roster. We always said like, there's a
process to this. It's and and you've got to be
deliberate with it because this foundation may be the most
important foundation that Darren Devries has delay in his whole
time here at IU, this first team, because it's not just
about the on court success. It's about the cultural
establishment of a different set of values and a different work
ethic approach. And it's one of the things that
really it was a it was a problem for IU under Archie Miller, was
a problem for IU under Mike Woodson.
It just, it never really felt like the work ethic and the
approach that we've expected out of IU basketball historically
when it's been at its best was really there all the time.
You've got to have that, you got to have the right guys to do
that and we won't know until they actually start playing, but
it feels like they're off to a really good start with that mix.
100% And that's why I feel like trying to classify your feelings
as optimistic or pessimistic, positive or negative, is just
the complete wrong way to look at it.
I don't think any of those classifications matter.
I think the bottom line is that for eight years, Indiana
basketball has been mediocre and uninteresting, and it's been a
lot of the same thing over and over again.
So I don't think we need to worry about if you're optimistic
or negative. Are you interested?
And that's what this is to me is it's interesting, it's
compelling. It's no guarantee of wins and
losses, but I think it should get everybody leaning in again,
paying attention, seeing something new.
This is going to be novel, you know, and and that's what I
think is is is more important. And so, you know, the I just
think that's a that's a good way to look at it.
Also, can I just point out how in Tony's previous statement, he
just like casually dropped this term sig esque that we all just
like, we all just know is like shorthand for a coach coming in
and like doing great work and building a good culture.
Like there's so much involved in that term and it's just
beautiful that we can just say that in casual conversation.
And we all know what it means. And it relates to smashing
Indiana football success. So it's it's a it's a good time.
Like things are interesting again.
And, and and that is just something that I think we used
to take for granted with Indiana basketball.
Like Tom Crean seems were interesting, even if you know,
the the results weren't always there.
And for the last eight years we've been boring and mediocre.
And so I don't know how good we'll be, but I know we're going
to be interesting this year. And that, to me, is a big
important change. The other one, the one
overarching thing that does related to the Signetti higher
and what he was attacking and and debris is doing it much
differently. Signetti noted a real low level
of self esteem and excitement among the fans and and and
around the program as a whole. So that's why he goes out and
and does the statement at the half time of I think it was the
Maryland game. And then that's why he does all
the bravado stuff because he's like, we got to believe in
ourselves. Devries is going about it
differently. We've heard very little from
Darren Devries after that first initial wave of interviews.
And the what's fascinating, and this was noted on Crimson cast
yesterday. There's the leaks are gone like
we're finding out a little bit about guys if you're subscribing
to the Trilly Discord or or if you're Tony and you have like a
listening post where you're tapping into everybody's
communications across the country, but.
You're not supposed to tell them that.
Well, you know, just want them to be nervous, Tony, that's all
you know. But there there's a, there was a
certain very low level of investment in the program, a lot
of arm's length stuff from fans of all ages for various reasons.
Just it had gotten very toxic around IU basketball.
And that's a two way street. But you've got to build back
slowly. And I think IU fans are done
with IU basketball fans are done with, oh, you know, we're a top
program and talking that way without anything to back it up.
And so again, a lot to go and a lot of transitional stuff with
these players getting up to the high major level and how it all
fits together. But a lot of a lot of wins to
celebrate here in the early going over the course of this
last couple of weeks. And that is really exciting and
a nice change of pace from what passed off seasons have looked
like without you. So on that note, we'll go ahead
and wrap up. We went an hour.
I like to keep these things a little on the shorter side, but
keep the horses fresh because there's going to be more portal
commitments. Horses.
Are you talking Wilkerson horses?
Yeah, maybe apparently, apparently they they tried to
take him to the Preakness, according to Scott, and that
didn't work out full well. But anyway, my thanks to Ryan
Phillips. Jared, thank you so much for
coming on and joining us. Tony, thank you for being here
for the whole hour. And my thanks to all of you
folks who watched or listened throughout the course of the
work day. We're going to try to do these
like this whenever else something comes up.
And so just keep it on the back home network YouTube channel or
subscribe on Spotify or Apple to either Crimson Cast or Assembly
Call. We'll have you covered.
For all of the folks involved, I'm Galen Clavio saying thanks
for joining us here on the show. We'll catch you folks.
On the flip side, stay never daunted.
Bring back the Bison. So long, everybody.