You're listening to the back home network, presented by home
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and klaviyo joining. You here solo tonight.
Little bit of an unusual one, but a lot of stuff going on that
we need to talk about some questions that you folks have
about conference realignment. What's going on with it?
Where are we headed with everything?
It is the fifth of July. I hope everybody had a good
Fourth of July weekend or as good as it could be.
And yeah, we got a lot of things to tackle here.
We're going to dive into several of your questions and we've got
some updates before that about some of the news that's gone on
over the weekend. Some things that came out today
that I think are probably worth noting and so we're going to
tackle All of those things. And if you've got further
questions, you can always hit up the podcast at Crimson cast on
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All right, let's go ahead and start off by talking a little
bit about some of the news and some of the interesting items
that we have seen pop up here over the course of the last few
hours, you know, maybe 24, 48 hours, I guess we had a lot go
on there, heading into the 4th of July weekend and then
everything just kind of stopped and that's essentially how these
things go. As you know, you get this flurry
of activity and then you essentially don't have anything
going on and and it's easy to kind of get lost in the shuffle
as far as trying to figure out what is happening and what we
need to be paying attention to. Now, you know, the things I
think are the most interesting at this stage is I would not
necessarily expect anything immediate and final to take
place. Now I might be proven Wrong by
this. We might see Notre Dame announce
tomorrow for all we know one way or the other.
But the more I look at this in the more you read between the
lines of what's being posted by Porter's who have sources or who
are close to the scene, the more I think we're probably going to
be in a little bit of a holding pattern here and the reason for
that is because there's a lot of players right now jockeying for
position and that position is really dependent on Leverage and
about this idea that what each individual player brings to the
table. And I'm talking about, not just
the, you know, the conferences. But I'm talk about the
individual schools at this point.
That leverage needs to be exercised.
There's going to be a lot of backroom dealings going to be a
lot of, you know, you got the cell phone up to one ear and
then you get a different cell phone up to the other are.
And, you know, hey Notre. Dame's got the ACC on one line
and the Big Ten on another line and they're exchanging DMS with
the Pac-12. I think everything's kind of on
the table right now. Couple of interesting notes to
start with. First of all, if you're not
following John Canzano.com, he's got a lot of interesting,
tidbits and Nuggets. This is a guy who's covered the
Pac-12 for a long time and as based out of Portland, he had a
fascinating quote, which goes along with some of the stuff we
talked about in our podcasts last week.
And I'm just going to quote from the piece here.
A source at UCLA told me that the discussions with the Big Ten
got intense about eight weeks ago.
So, you know, you're basically talking about the end of April,
beginning of may also, I'm told that USC, and UCLA didn't
communicate with each other, about their Pac-12.
Departures until quote the 11th Hour when Bruins ad Martin
jarmon. And Trojans ad Mike bone got on
the phone together said, One Source quote, I can't believe
this didn't get leaked. You Can Count Me In the list of
people who can't believe this. Didn't get leaked.
That's a really fascinating tidbit though because I think
what it really highlights is that, you know, we tend to think
that there's all these Machiavelli and power plays
going on behind the scenes and everything is really well
coordinated and everybody's really got their ducks in a row
and This case, the and in many other cases, I don't think that
that's actually the case. What you often have is schools
operating out of individual self-interest at least in the
early stages of these things. And then finding out that they
actually have common cause for all we know, it might have been
the Big Ten that at one point tipped off, USC and UCLA, like,
have you guys talked at all, you might want to because this might
end up looking better and then you end up with the, you know,
the the essentially, the statements to get released at
The same time. So that's something to keep in
mind with a lot of the other things.
We've got some questions about individual schools pairing off
and potentially operating in tandem with each other, and that
may indeed be happening. But I do think that overall a
lot of this is not as well thought out or thought out from
his purely strategic perspective.
As a lot of times we are led to believe keep in mind that a lot
of the information we get is actually secondhand or
third-hand it passes through. Well sources that ends up in the
hands of journalists orchids, communicated to journalists but
the people communicating it to the journalists aren't
necessarily the decision makers themselves.
So it's somewhat a game of telephone.
It's always going to be interesting watching these
things progress and so that's a caution I think at this point
you know it know it is interesting.
Also in that comes our oh peace. He talks about how the Pac-12
members are quote experiencing a swirl of emotions, they're angry
and Feel misled by USC, but they're also mourning the loss
of the Pac-12 but are still looking potentially positively
at what might be transpiring. And that kind of leads us to the
flurry of news that we got throughout the course of
Tuesday. Today about things that might be
going on. There's a rumor of course that
Oregon and Washington are looking at potentially and
hoping that the Big Ten might throw them an invite but we're
also seeing simultaneously. That Utah, Colorado, Arizona,
and Arizona, State may be currently getting talked to by
the Big 12 and this is going to be a really fascinating thing as
we move forward because ultimately the Big 12 and the
Pac-12 and the ACC are all in somewhat similar circumstances
although with much different details surrounding those
circumstances right now, it's pretty much assumed and kind of
a foregone conclusion. If you look at markets If you
look at the success of individual teams, I mean, Bill
Connolly puts up in together that I highly recommend
everybody. Check out that was published on
ESPN today, that looked at the last 10 years, of college
football and the the SP plus ratings of all the schools that
are in college football over that period of time and
something like 19 of the top 20, or 19 of the top 22 schools and
college football from the last 10 years are now going to be in
either the Big Ten or the CC. So whatever you think morally
or, you know, from a details perspective about how these
things are shaping up. The realistic thing to keep in
mind is that you're looking at essentially the formation of two
super conferences. And then you get everybody else
in the question is, what is the everybody else going to look
like? So you've got three conferences.
+ Notre Dame, who's either in the ACC or not?
In the ACC, depending on your perspective on things?
And you have to look at each of them from the A point of where
they, at in the big scheme of things.
So the ACC is the most complete of all of those conferences,
it's got the same membership now for the last several years, but
they are also the conference that is probably in the least.
Advantageous position from a revenues perspective at least
long term. As we've talked about on the
previous podcasts, the ACC has that grant of rights deal, which
is tied in, with their ESPN contract.
Which unfortunately, for the ACC and its members Schools locks
them into a much lower Financial rung than the Big Ten schools or
the SEC. Schools are going to have access
to by like a factor of four or five.
We're talking about the difference between 20 to 30
million and eighty to a hundred million on the part of the big
conferences. So the ACC is kind of in a bind
right now and then you have to look at the other two
conferences. You've got the big 12, which
just got raided, they lose their two, most financially important
schools in Texas and Oklahoma. Then they go out and they add,
you know, a bunch of what you would, probably call second tier
schools, a lot of group of five schools and they bring those in
and they look at it, I guess and they would say, well now we're
on relatively Solid Ground would least we know who we are and
what we're doing. And can we be in Acquisitions
mode? Now is now the time where, if
you're the Big 12, you do what we heard today and you say, you
know what, we're going to give Utah and Colorado, call
Colorado, former member of the pack of the The Big 12 left for
the Pac-12 about a decade ago. Utah is, you know, State
partners with use with BYU. They're a good football, brand.
You know, they've got some things going for them and then
you got to Arizona and Arizona State, you know, for the Big 12,
that's a really attractive package because that's the
Denver television market, that's the Salt Lake City television
market. That's the Phoenix television
market and that's some pretty big alumni base has all things
considered that you might be able to throw into the hopper
the 12. Yeah they still have Oregon they
still have Washington. And as of now they still have
Utah Colorado the Arizona schools and the Bay Area
Schools. And you know the immediate
messaging after the news that USC and UCLA relieving was that
the Pac-12 was sticking together and it's hard to know what to
believe or not believe I wouldn't necessarily believe
that they're sticking together for sure.
Like we're you know, we're not best buddies for the rest of
time but it's like Let's show some solidarity because as a
group we might be better off together.
If we could go get a, an improved television deal over.
What we're currently looking at with the LA schools.
No longer involved, you know, the there was a note about an
again, this was a John Ken's, r0 thing from earlier and he knows
that that conference very well that the conference might have
lost two hundred million dollars off of their television deal
based upon the fact that the LA schools are leaving.
Not just because of the ratings, but because of the overall A
television markets. So if I'm the Pac-12, I'm kind
of simultaneously asking myself. Well, you know, are we in a
better position because we have perhaps more respected overall
Brands. And again, here we're talking
Oregon, Washington, Stanford, you know, Colorado and Utah.
I think they're certainly up there.
We have more attractive Brands and more respected brands on a
national stage than the Big 12 does.
Why should we let the big 12 raid us?
Why couldn't we just stabilize? Why couldn't we We maybe join
forces with the ACC. These are essentially the two
conferences that are left from the alliance that they were
supposed to be in with the Big Ten.
And so you do, it's a little Game of Thrones ish because at
this point you have to ask yourself who's in the best
position to maneuver themselves where they could be the number
three conference behind the SEC in the Big Ten and some order.
And I don't know if there's a good answer to that yet.
I think, you know, the Big 12 has probably got the most
overall stability but The Pac-12 certainly has a little more
oomph from a tradition perspective.
In the ACC has, you know, I mean, the Clemson recently won
the national title, they've got the tie in with Notre Dame.
Each of them has something going for them, each of them as
something, going against them, you know, I'm going to hold off
on predictions on that front because I don't know at this
stage, I think a lot of its going to ultimately depend on
what happens with Notre, Dame, if anything, and that is as good
of an entry point as any to get into the questions.
That Had from folks. And so I'm gonna start off here
by trying to tackle as much of that, as we possibly can.
Let's start with Nicodemus Alabaster, who asked the
following questions here on Twitter.
Everyone is watching and waiting on Notre Dame, but the most
intriguing part might be out of schools in the ACC decide how to
approach the grant of rights many schools want out.
Also, which conference will be left standing the Big 12 of the
Pac-12, it won't be both in my opinion, lots of moving parts
right now. So So to try to take a good set
of questions, I guess to take it in relative order, you know.
I think that you're very much correct as far as how the acc's
decides to approach the grant of rights and I've seen a couple of
different potential Solutions offered the the the big issue
with the grant of rights is that it is probably binding legally.
While the ACC is in its current formation of teams and the
reason the grant of rights is so difficult to get around is that
essentially, you've signed a piece of paper.
The ties you to the conference and if you leave any media
Revenue that you generate in another conference has to go
back to the ACC. Now if the ACC doesn't exist as
a legal entity, that would probably cancel the grant of
rights, but then you've got a whole nother set of problems
that you would set up with. They're not the least of which
is okay what happens to all those teams.
So they try to reconstitute and exactly how many zeros will be
on the lawsuit that ESPN files if they decide to go that route.
So they have to essentially Ali. If they want to get this grant
of rights thing addressed, they have to go to ESPN and say look
you are literally going to drive us out of the top tier of
College athletics as a conference, all of the schools
in it Clemson, Florida State Miami.
Whoever, if you hold us to this contract in the current
realities financially of college sports will ESPN be agreeable to
that. That's going to be a big
question and a lot of that might end up tying in with Notre Dame
because ultimately, Her name's got a separate deal and that's
their NBC affiliation that they can bring to the table.
I think that the the idea that in order to aim might just say,
you know what, we would rather be the big fish in the small
pond. We're going to stick with the
ACC and try to maneuver ourselves so that we have access
to the playoff. And we've got scheduling with
the ACC, we've got scheduling with the, remnants of the
Pac-12, we can still schedule USC as a non-conference game.
That's no problem. We can still occasionally
schedule non-conference games with Big Ten teams.
Maybe that's what they decide to do.
And Pat 40 in his column today which was all about in order
Dame. Talked about that particular
thing and this is going to resonate through a bunch of the
questions and comments that people had for this podcast.
What snorter Dame's price to walk through the door for that.
Sort of a thing is going to be the big question mark.
Are they going to say? Well, look, yes, we would love.
Go along with a strengthened ACC Pac-12 Alliance, but we're going
to need some significant financial concessions.
That would be really interesting because they could probably
demand it. Like, I think Notre Dame, could
walk in and say we need 80 million dollars a year
guaranteed, because that's what we would be getting from the Big
Ten. And if you're ESPN, if you're
the ACC schools, what do you do at that point?
Do you say no, we can't do it. And then have Notre Dame.
Leave joined the Big Ten and now suddenly only you find yourself
in a position where you don't have a trump card and media
negotiations or anything like that ESPN might do it.
I'm sure ESPN would love to peel in order to aim off of NBC with
the schools do that though and this is going to be the big
question because the big issue right now with the grant of
rights is that all of those schools are tied in to a
financial number from television Revenue.
That is artificially low compared to where the market
rate is at this point. So it's hard for me.
You envision Clemson for instance who you know who won a
national title, looking at Notre Dame making double what they're
making and saying yeah you know we're fine with that or Florida
State or Miami saying something similar so I don't think that's
what's going to happen. I think that the acc's best
Chance is going to be to let in order to him alone.
Let them do what they want to do.
Try to get in touch with the Pac-12 schools and say, look
we're aligned we are we're not like the big 12 which this is
where I think the Sure college sports can be really interesting
for people because I can think about the Big 12.
Historically, it's always kind of been.
It's the conference that has the schools.
With generally speaking, the smallest alumni basis.
They have the least amount of national reach and they're not
really August academic institutions.
I mean, you could make the argument certainly for the
University of Texas when they were there and Kansas might have
an argument here or there, but the rest of the schools by and
large are just not at the Same level perception.
Ali as PAC, 12 schools, ACC schools and Big Ten schools.
And while the SEC certainly is a little more like the big 12 in
terms of reputation, the SEC gets away with it.
By having these huge stadiums, these huge alumni base has
fertile, recruiting grounds, and so much money because their
product is viewed as being so good.
So if I'm the ACC I'm like I don't really want to partner
with the big 12 but could I partner with the Pac-12 the
remaining schools there could we bring Oregon and Washington?
Ten and Stanford in Colorado, and Utah and the to Arizona,
schools in and, and I'm not trying to leave our beaver and
cougar fans out. But, you know, unfortunately,
when when its money and fan base, is your kind of ancillary
in this conversation. So do they say Okay, ACC Big,
Twelve, no ACC Pac-12. Yes, let's get together.
Let's do some kind of a combined television deal.
Let's try to be the other National Conference.
And then, let's see if we can entice in order to aim with a
better Financial Package. Will that work financially?
I don't know that. It generates a whole lot more
money for either ACC schools or PAC 12, schools, remaining ones.
And I don't know if it necessarily makes ESPN say,
yeah, we're going to tear up that grant of rights agreement
that runs for the next 14 years and start fresh, which is going
to mean that we have to pay you all more money.
So it's a tough spot for the ACC.
Now, as far as what the second question there from Nicodemus
about, which conference will be left standing the Big 12 of the
Pac-12. I think both will be left.
Standing in terms of they will both be alive.
I think, right now if I had to guess, I'd say it's more likely
that Pac-12 schools will defect to the Big 12 then the other way
around. Because, right now if you're a
big 12 school, like you're already kind of set and if you
can add additional schools, you're in good shape.
If you don't add the schools from the Pac-12, you're still
doing fine, you're not in great shape, but you've positioned
yourself. Kind of that.
The scrappy Middle America conference, that is going to
have some pretty good football. If you're the Pac-12 you don't
really have much bargaining power right now in the
marketplace, we're hearing a lot of noise about how the Pac-12
commissioner George klav cough is, you know, it was bad doing a
bang-up job and he's their negotiating meteorites.
That was an announcement that came out today.
They've restarted that. And it's like, I don't think
it's really going to matter in the big scheme of things is what
are they negotiating with right now?
You've got 10 schools in the Pac-12.
And even though you lose 200 million dollars off the top of
what their rights you could have been by the LA schools leaving
at three hundred million dollars a year, that's 30 million
dollars school. That's that's not, that's
certainly not Big Ten Or SEC numbers but that's you can do
something with that at least, you know.
So it's a tough spot for them to be in because if anybody
defects, if Oregon and Washington end up in the Big
Ten, if Stanford ends up in the Big Ten, if any of those schools
that Reportedly met with the big 12 today, decide to go to the
big 12, you're really in bad shape.
Now, you'll still have a Pac-12. That's too strong of a brand, I
think to go away. But I view it like, kind of what
happened with the Big East, Big East lost all the football
schools and they at some point had to say we're going to hit
the reset button here and they went back to being a basketball
conference. A good one, but not the same
basketball conference that they were when they had Syracuse when
they had, you know, Boston College when they had, Like the
old Big East and I think would happen with the Pac-12, you
know? If if let's say the state
schools get left behind, if Cal gets left behind, you're going
to backfill with as many Mountain West schools as you
can, you're gonna call it the Pac-12.
It's not going to be quite the same.
That would be how I would look at it.
This point I think at this point the Big 12 is probably in better
position but we'll see. I think there's a lot of
questions to be asked still as far as all that's concerned
going back to a question that was asked that is on similar
ground by Dan Lewis if Primary goal now is to get in order to
aim into the Big Ten. What method is best meet all of
their demands, the carrot or crash, the ACC by poaching.
A school or two which would be the stick.
If the Big Ten were to grab an ACC school or two, who would you
want UNC Duke or who would be most likely?
Miami good question Dan. So I think the Big Ten trying to
crash the ACC is a non-starter if no other moves happen with
the ACC. Now if Notre Dame, just says
tomorrow. Hey, we're coming to the Big
Ten. There's not much the ACC can do.
And at that point I think the Big Ten probably is like, you
know what? We're not going to touch the
rest of the ACC. You know, why?
Because the Big Ten is ultimately under the fox
umbrella, and the ACC is entirely under the ESPN umbrella
and the idea that you're going to risk the legal entanglements
of trying to go and get a couple of schools out of the ACC that
probably only offer replacement level value from Financial
perspective and also put you in a geographic area that you don't
have a whole lot going on in. I just don't see the Big 10
deciding they're going to go that I think in that scenario of
Notre Dame were to come, they'd be much more likely to say.
All right. Notre Dame.
Would you like Stanford to come with?
You would you like Oregon? Would you like Washington?
Like what would be the move that would make you the happiest?
I don't know what Notre. Dame's demands would be and then
this is where the Big Ten and Notre Dame.
I think right now. Is probably the best and
probably last moment where they might decide to finally get
together in order to Ames putting a lot of noise out right
now. If you understand how media
Works, they are pumping so much. We love being independent stuff
out there through reporter contacts and it's being carried
to social media and you're seeing it in in the Articles,
this has become the drumbeat over the last couple of days,
you know, Notre Dame, we love our independence.
We this is our preference to stay independent.
We can This out for a while, you know, Pat 40 in that piece that
I referenced earlier in Sports Illustrated, even went so far as
to talk about how do you know, Notre Dame can survive very well
on x amount of dollars, you know, 30 40 million dollars a
year. They don't need these huge
payouts that they would be getting if they were part of the
Big Ten or part of the SEC. I don't know if I agree with
that point at all because that does catch up with you after a
while. And it's not like College
athletics, are going to get any less expensive as the arms race
continues, especially Lee with these two Mega conferences
getting underway. But I do think that in order to
aim right now is trying to play as much leverage as they
possibly can. And the reason I think right now
the Big Ten and Notre Dame or about as close as they're ever
going to get to dancing is that they have a potentially
symbiotic relationship at this stage in time.
The Big Ten can now offer Notre, Dame a clear path to the playoff
every year. If they want it, they can offer
tremendous amounts of money and Financial Security that will
Sure that Notre Dame athletics carries on into the next couple
of decades and Beyond they can offer a coast to coast League.
Now with one of the primary Rivals of Notre Dame in that
league and Notre Dame for their part, can offer probably an NBC
television deal, which would be more lucrative than if they
were. Just the big temperatures,
getting a package from NBC on their own.
And of course, they offer the Notre Dame brand, which has a
lot of cash, a in a lot of different places.
Does that mean that a deal is, ultimately going to get done?
I don't think that it means that.
I think it could certainly happen.
I think it'd be smart for Notre Dame and I honestly at this
point and I'm sure I can get accused of bias on this whatever
I think the Big Ten right now probably would be fine if
Notre-Dame decided not to join. I think ultimately Notre Dame
needs to join the Big Ten long-term more than the Big Ten
needs in order to aim to join and I'm sure there's Irish Ends
up there to disagree with me. You may end up being proven
right, but the way that fought, the finances are going and the
money is going in college sports right now.
I don't see a scenario where 10 years from now of Notre.
Dame still trying to hack it as an independent that they're in a
similar spot to where they're at right now.
Yes, they've made the play off a couple times in the last decade
the last decade is different than the next decade and I think
that that is the big key point that needs to be kept in mind,
most of the Articles I've read on Notre Dame, talking about the
other there. Desire to remain independent,
really seem rooted in the past rather than looking forward to
the future. As far as if you were going to
get teams out of the ACC, I'll tackle that real quick.
You know, I just, I don't see a scenario where Duke ends up in
the Big Ten and the Dukes more likely to end up in the ivy
league than in the Big Ten for a variety of reasons.
Not the least of which is they bring nothing to the table with
football UNC. I think would be a very
attractive candidate. Miami would be an attractive
candidate. He said, the tires kicked on
them before, but again, I just don't see.
Unless the ACC schools can figure out a way to extricate,
themselves legally or get ESPN, hit the reset button from that
grant of rights by becoming increasingly convinced.
We're not going to see any of those teams move and I think the
big tent at this point I'd like well we're fine adding some more
West Coast Schools if we need to and they may not actually even
need to let's see a couple other questions of that note.
We had a question from Benji on that note.
Note, is it possible that Duke and North Carolina have been
secretly meeting behind closed doors, debating, if they should
be Team, 17 and 18? Who would you like more to join
alongside Notre Dame Stanford or Boston College or Miami?
Good questions. Yeah, it's absolutely possible.
That Duke and North Carolina have been meeting secretly.
I imagine, you know, now that, you know, I mean, it's a little
different from what I said earlier, we're USC and UCLA
didn't realize they were each talking to the conference.
But now I think there's a lot of schools looking around picking
up the Own try figure out like okay, who's on my team?
And who's not on my team, who would be a nice partner?
If we had to package ourselves for this new reality, you know,
the problem the Duke and North Carolina have is that they're
very different institutions and the things that make you North
Carolina, really attractive to either the SEC or the Big Ten.
I don't think really follow through with Duke, you know,
North Carolina's got a big alumni base in a really big
state. All things considered
population-wise, very good, not great.
Football program. But they are at least not a bad
football program and they obviously have a top-notch
basketball program. They have top-notch other
sports, they have top-notch facilities, you know, they're
still viewed in some circles is a really good academic
institution Duke, certainly, as the academic institution part
going, but they have not a whole lot else besides basketball and
who knows what? Duke basketball, poach Pote, G's
host coach chefs. Key looks like, is it go?
I mean, do we know that Jon scheyer is going to be able?
To take this Duke team to the same Heights.
I know they're recruiting well, initially here, but do you want
to take that chance? As I mean, go back and look at
the pre Coach K history of Duke. I mean, they had some Highs but
it wasn't like they were the dominant team that they are.
Now, you know, if I'm the Big Ten and I've got my choice out
of the group of teams that you listed Benji, I'm probably going
with Miami along with you and see because it gives you entry
into Florida. It gives you a really big media
Market or gives you a great fertile recruiting ground and
Miami's you. Used to traveling all over the
place anyway. I mean Miami's in a conference
where they got to go all the way up the Eastern Seaboard.
They got to travel to Pittsburgh.
They got to travel to Boston, College, got travel to Syracuse
traveling, the Big Ten schools, and really bothered in them that
much. So that's something I think to
keep in mind with that. Boston College is a complete
non-starter. I mean, you want to talk about
an athletic department that has kind of been dead in the water
for decades. I mean, it's it's they've had
good athletic directors in there that have tried.
Boston, just a pro sports town. I mean, it's Boston College is
essentially an afterthought. They were kind of an
afterthought when they joined the ACC to.
So I don't see them being a reasonable option and you don't
really need the Boston Market, if you're the Big Ten,
especially if you get an order Dame because that pretty much
gives it to you anyway. So that would be my pics there,
but we'll see. I again, as I said earlier, I'd
be real surprised if any of those teams ended up coming to
the Big Ten when it's all said and done.
Unless something radical happens with the grant of rights, Drew
Duncan asked since Notre Dame has not come out and said, no,
do you think this could point to actual discussions being had?
Yeah, absolutely. I am 100% convinced that
discussions of some nature are being held between Notre Dame
and not just the Big 10 but the SEC, the ACC, the Pac-12.
I think everybody is having a conversation with Notre Dame
right now and vice versa also of Notre Dame does join.
I see them. Requiring the Big Ten to put
them in a pod with the LA schools.
I just feel like they're too stuck up to Free to play IU, and
Purdue each year. That's funny.
Although I don't know if we can say that the school that Purdue
or the Notre Dame has played the most in big in their history of
Big. Ten schools is Purdue.
They play them on 87 times historically, more than
Michigan, where the Michigan State, and they just agreed to
play Indiana in a home and home now, will they do that every
year? Probably not.
But I think the whole pod discussion I think is predicated
on the idea that we know Oh, what the structure shape of this
is going to look like, I do think there's going to be some
kind of a pod or sub-divisional system, but it may not be like
three protected Rivals, it may end up like, if this gets to 20,
you may just decide to split the Big Ten Conference into two
divisions and just have the divisions, play each other and
use the conference Championship, as a de facto play-in game for
the playoff. I mean, that's, that's
absolutely a scenario that you could run into, which kind of
takes the pot idea out of there, you know, like I think, Her
name's arrogance, their reputation for being arrogant is
well-earned and we're going to get into that a little bit here
with another question, but I also think that Notre Dame's
going to be reasonable because on the one hand like partnering
with the LA schools and having them like be regular opponents,
May it's helpful to some degree but it's not going to help Notre
Dame to play. Both USC and UCLA every year
that that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, they want to
spread their schedule out, they want to play in a bunch of
different places and so, so I think it's more likely that if
there's going to be some kind of a pod set up, nor Dame's going
to want USC in their pod beyond that.
I think it's probably a little Freer.
And honestly, I think they probably just want Purdue in
their pod to a, because, its traditional, and be, because I'd
be a pretty easy win for Notre Dame every year I think.
Let's see. Carlin way asks, do you see the
Big Ten staying at 16 teams for now if Nora Dame does not accept
the invite? Yes, I do.
Because ultimately the money is what matters in order to in can
bring a lot of money to the table in order, to aim could
potentially bring, you know, enough money to not just pay for
their share but increase the pot for everybody else.
Their cost of doing that, might be bringing another school in
with them. And I think the Big Ten
certainly wouldn't want to get stuck at an odd number.
Although, it hasn't hurt the a He see, but I do look at it and
I say to myself, if Nora team decides, for whatever reason
that they're either staying in to excuse me, that they're
either staying independent or that they're going to another
conference. The Big Ten at this point is
like there's really not a whole lot of other schools out there
that are going to move the needle.
So why why add somebody just to take money off the table.
This is actually the big question.
The Pac-12 has to deal with which is, you know, we could add
like San Diego State or we could add, I don't know.
Fresno State, that that's probably a bridge too far.
But, you know, we had a couple of schools out of the Mountain
West and get our number back up to 12.
But like, do we need that y sub. Divide the pie earlier,
particularly for school, like San Diego State, who just isn't
going to bring in any Revenue, they end up taking money off the
table. So, I think the Big Ten if Nora
team decides not to go through with this, or if they decide to
go a different direction, they'll probably probably like,
you know what, we're fine. And we'll just want to wait to
see what that happens with the dominoes falling.
Because I think what happens at that point Is Notre Dame, not
joining. The Big Ten would eventually
lead to some kind of reorganization either of the ACC
or one of the other conferences and of the way, the playoff is
put together, does that lead to the ACC starting to Splinter and
then does the Big Ten have options there that they could
move into. These will be the big questions
to answer but that's I think like there's no reason for the
big tender Rush. At that point, I am a proponent
of expanding it further. I think that they should But I
think Notre Dame. Joining is probably a predicate
for any of those sorts of moves. Let's see.
Tim burn. Hi Tim, how you doing?
I'm not saying I'm a genius but if you're the leftover Pac-12,
Big 12 ACC schools, it seems like you should be the first to
Market private college athletics.
I've seen this idea of from a few other people.
This idea that you're going to say, you know what, where the
big 12 we are not going to be able to compete on an even
footing with the Big Ten and the SEC and maybe even the Pac-12 if
it figures out already. To reconstitute itself.
So why don't we just blow the doors off of everything?
Why don't we dispense with the current model?
Why don't we pay players directly?
And why don't we create a situation?
Where essentially we make it harder for the super conference
to do business. The way that they've been doing
business by focusing on a different model than interesting
idea. In theory, it's actually very
close to an idea that's been pushed by several people who
are, you know, I'd say analysts of college sports.
That would like to see the existing NCAA model.
No longer exists. There were, you know, it's been
one relatively long standing, proposal that the, you know, the
historically black universities and colleges, you know, we're
talking about like the Jackson State's and the Alcorn States is
essentially the swac. The me a couple of other
conferences that are out there in college sports.
Why don't they just break away from the NCAA and pay?
Athletes directly and just change the Paradigm that way
because they could do that. There's a lot of reasons why
that doesn't happen. And I think the biggest one and
particularly if we're talking about Pac-12 and ACC here, Tim
is that the college presidents. There would be aghast.
I mean we're a lots happened in the last several years regarding
college sports and athletes having rights.
And you got n IL now and you've got the transfer portal and
you've got essentially an environment that's almost quasi
professional. This could actually push it
towards full. Professionalism, where these are
considered as employees. But I think if that were to
happen, it would happen everywhere.
It wouldn't just happen in one conference because the moment
one conference does it, the other conference is going to be
like, all right, games up, we're not going to surrender a
competitive Advantage. We're going to go ahead and do
the same thing and so I think that's ultimately why you might
get a little bit of a lead start if you worked out a model, that
would work for that but I just don't see it happening given
Who's involved and what their thoughts have been up to this
point. It makes sense from fans.
Back to the kit makes sense, from some journalists
perspectives. I don't think it makes a lot of
sense from the perspectives of most college presidents.
And their ultimately the ones are going to be making a lot of
these decisions. Okay, let's see.
A couple other questions nationally and then we had some
Big Ten specific questions. First question here From Ghost
of a ghost. Is it possible that new
conference realignments enervates?
The NCAA. Now, if that major conferences
or all schools break away, and would it be possible that the
quote student-athlete construct is eliminated to just paying
players and or being only players and students later?
I mean I don't think that sort of thing would happen overnight.
I think that's a gradual that's like a 10 to 15 years shift in
ethics and approach. And you know, I do think that
what you're watching is certainly probably the late
stage or the end stage of the current NCAA model.
I don't see a way around that but I also don't think that the
NCAA is going away entirely a there's a lot of sports that
have to be administered, a lot of championships that
Ministered. And there's really nothing right
now that says to me that either the Big Ten of the SEC it wants
to take on that mantle, which is what they'd have to do.
I mean the conference's are not set up to manage those that that
degree of sports to the way you know from a championships
perspective they certainly managed it in the conferences
but You know, I don't look at that situation as being
something that's going to translate into a complete
Paradigm Shift right now, you know paying players or
separating athletic departments and turning them into
essentially branded businesses. I mean that is certainly
possible. But I also think there's still
some benefits in the eyes of a lot of these organizations that
were talking about both the schools and the conference's to
keeping the current system because there's All some
plausibility in saying this is College athletics.
It's just that we managed football differently than the
other sports. A breakaway is complicated in a
lot of ways and paying players is really complicated I mean
schools have been fighting against paying players for so
long now that it's hard to Envision them just turning
around and saying, yeah you know, we're going to pay them at
this point. Not the least of which is all
the potential challenges in court that you would see on
Title Nine, you know, basis you know Staff at various
universities being like, wait a minute.
These people are making how much money and we're only making, you
know, the pittance that you're paying us as staff members.
There's a lot of things, a lot of many things in that
particular Pandora's Box that get opened up the moment that
you do it. Now it's different at the
federal government comes in and says, boom.
These are employees. You have to compensate them as
such. That's a different scenario but
I don't see like we keep hearing this threat of these schools are
going to leave the NCAA this or that or this is finally it for
the NCAA. Heard that for 30 years and what
everybody forgets is. The schools are the NCAA.
At the end of the day you're not gaining much by breaking away
and trying to form your own thing.
Because at this point you've got the thing that matters the most
which is the revenue from college football and the revenue
from the television contracts that your conferences are
signing on an individual basis. The NCAA looks impotent and you
know, maybe all this does is it further pushes the enforcement
arm of the NCAA of the A away and I think that happens.
Anyway if the NCAA really tries to go after some of these n IL
collectives but as far as an actual break away, as a result
of this, I'm having a hard time seeing it at this moment in
time. Second question also from Ghost
of a ghost, the growing roles of players.
They have such pack days of school, practice lifting playing
and so on, maybe the player / student division is for certain
athletes. I don't know if Title Nine
precludes this. I mean, it is a big question,
mark and I think One of those things where the, you know,
ultimately, you're looking at a scenario here where people are
finally, to some degree starting to wake up to the idea that what
colleges and universities have been selling us and what the
NCAA has been selling us for years that?
Oh, you know, these are students first and athlete.
Second, you basically look like a fool if you're trying to argue
that. Now in this current environment
where you've just had a major conference and two major
schools. Rules say, we're going to do
2,500 mile flights back and forth.
Yes, the travel is not that much different than what we already
have in college sports, but that just underlines.
How far from reality the myth of the student athlete is in the
reality, the boots on the ground experience of being a college
athlete and almost any sport. And so, you know, I think the
the idea that that relationship is going to change, I think it's
going to happen, it's going to be gradual.
Times. And then it's going to be
explosive at times. But, you know, I also don't see
this particular move or even any of the proposed subsequent Moves
In order to aim to the Big Ten, some of these other things
happening as changing business. That much that it would require
a wholesale, alteration of the way college sports handles.
Its relationship with athletes, unless the federal government or
the National Labor Relations Board, decides to get involved,
and that seems highly unlikely right now, weirdly ni l.
If you take Phase 2 of n IL, which is basically we're going
to pay players for showing up rather than Phase 1, which was
will pay you for social media posts.
If that's the mode wherein, if phase two is what we're really
in it, kind of solves the problem of paying players.
Yes, you've got a lot of Demands on you but you've got plenty of
times to take classes that aren't during school, like
during your season. You've got tutors, you've got,
you know, all this academic support and now through n IL You
could make a significant amount of money if you're good enough
to attract that kind of money. So, you know, this is where you
keep Title Nine out of it because you're able to
essentially have a shadow economy paying the players.
And as long as you can keep your players eligible, I mean even if
you can't keep your players eligible, that's the one thing.
It's like, is the NCAA under this environment.
Really going to be able to come in and and make any sort of
Demands as far as academic eligibility.
I mean, the fact that the NCAA couldn't even police the fake
classes. Candlelit North Carolina, I
think gives you the answer on that but again I think it's an
interesting question and it's one that I am interested in
seeing the answer to long-term. Let's see a couple other
questions that I wanted to get to here.
There were a lot of them and I'm trying to answer as many of them
as I can. So there was a question from
William follmer. I don't see how the big 12 sees
themselves in the driver's seat when it comes to expansion.
I agree. They stand to benefit from
realignment. However, the Big Ten or the SEC
wants more teams, like Stanford, Washington Oregon, they'll get
them, these are huge Team Art TV markets and will be attracted to
the big boys. That's true.
And additionally, these are attractive academic schools
which makes them very attractive for college presidents, in the
Big 12. I mean, I Again, you have to
really study the culture of college sports to grasp, why
Stanford in the Big 12 makes zero sense.
I mean, it doesn't sound right on its face and then you
actually dig into it and that would be ridiculous if you like
rice joining the Big 12 and then I would be just as ridiculous,
although even more. So because Stanford's actually
good at sports. So, I think ultimately where the
big 12 thinks they're in the driver's seat is not those big
markets. If they can take, you know, the
to Rocky Mountain schools and the two schools in Arizona, all
of which I think are reasonable ads.
If you're the Big 12, you kind of in the driver's seat because
you've added three really good markets.
You're never going to be at the same level as the SEC and the
big tent, like, you're just never going to get there, but if
you can establish yourself solidly as the number three
conference and you're making money to match, that's at least
a little bit better than the ACC.
You give yourself a Fighting Chance moving forward with
things. So that's that's the one thing I
I would say is that it's a different kind of game, but it's
at least a game that, you know, your place, you can have some
success in and, you know much, you can laugh at that a little
bit. But look at the American
Athletic Conference and the little victories, it was able to
score over the last several years.
Whether it was UCF or, you know, some of the other schools that
have been in their Houston. Making a final four, you know, I
mean, you've seen those schools, get some wins, so to speak.
In the big scheme of things and I do think that that's going to
be an interesting thing to watch because I think a conference
that is realistic and goes and adds the best teams for it's
situation is going to be in really good shape as you move
forward. Whereas a conference like the
ACC which thinks of itself as the third major, but in reality
is down on the next level. If they keep reaching for the
Stars, they might end up going the opposite direction.
Richard Parrish jr. Said, Ed.
I think the big toes in the driver's seat to remain a legit
power. Five conference by adding the
Arizona schools, Utah, Colorado adding Washington, Oregon will
be great but not really realistic or necessary.
So I guess we're on the same page with that William also had
the following Nebraska thinks they are God's gift to the Big
Ten true. They do think that it would seem
to me that the Irish will act more entitled than them both
schools. Need the Big Ten more than ever.
They can't stand to lose access to the National Championship, or
the ability to build Schedule. I want Notre Dame but not with a
sweetheart deal. You know, look, I think that's a
reasonable take. I will say I think at this point
while Notre Dame does need the Big Ten you could make an
argument that Notre Dame would at least survive for the next
ten years on their own and probably still be very
competitive. Nebraska, definitely needs the
Big Ten and you were talking about a team that and a school
that had great timing to have gotten into the Big Ten when
they did. And now be essentially a decade
plus long member really puts them in a good spot.
Spot compared to where they could have been.
If they hadn't joined the Big Ten at the moment that they did,
you know, I think the idea of a sweetheart deal for Notre, Dame,
it's like, what I said earlier about them, potentially joining
the ACC. I don't think the need is great
enough on the Big Ten side that they would give Notre Dame that
deal because they would want it to be.
I think they might wave the initial entry thing that
Maryland and Rutgers have had to go through where they don't get
a full share, for a few years of the television Revenue.
Think they'd wave that with Notre Dame but they don't need
to entice an order Name by saying, hey, we're going to give
you more More money than the rest of these teams and I don't
think that would be received well, whereas any of the ACC
might have to do that. And that would also not be
received well by those teams. And it would also require that
Notre Dame probably make some concessions of their own.
So, you know, I don't think that Notre Dame is going to lose
access to the National Title regardless.
But, you know, because I think whatever deal ends up coming
down. It's hard to see the Big Ten in
the SEC. Just not letting anybody have
access to The national title, it could happen, but if they have
to let Notre Dame in, they might have to let some other schools
in as well. It'd be much easier in order to
aim was in the conference, but I think, one way or another, in
order to is going to have access to the National Championship in
some way shape, or form. So, we'll see what happens as we
move forward with that. Okay, a couple of other items.
Al Forno asks, what does this mean for non football sports
through a Big Ten lens? How many Conference basketball
games? What do you do with the
conference tournaments? Does the Big Ten just send all
the softball and baseball teams to 24 February is the travel
support to season, soccer all good questions, you know, I
think Conference basketball games.
I think we're going to stay at 20.
It feels like that's the number that everybody's kind of agreed
to. And look, I think if you have a
stable group of teams, you're playing on a regular basis and
then you have some crossover that happens on a regular basis
that is probably enough on the basketball front.
If you've got 16 teams you know, essentially Only if you play I
don't even know what the total number would be but there's a
way to ration that out where you could play certain teams twice a
year and the rest of them once a year and then have a rotation
going on that and maybe the twice a year, opponents are
similar to the Pod system that we're talking about in football,
you know. But I think the numbers going to
stay at 20. I don't see them going back to
18. I also don't see them bumping it
up to 22 unless the foundation or the landscape of college
football or scuse me college basketball, just completely
changes Conference tournaments. That's an interesting one.
A 16-team conference tournament is certainly doable.
The ACC runs a 15 team one right now.
You know, a 16 team were would just look like a region in the
NCAA tournament at this point with a 1 and a 16 seed and then
all the way down. If you get to 18 teams, 20
teams, it gets a little trickier but that's where I think you got
to. I talked about this on either
the first or the second podcast we did last week.
You have to start a little bit, getting out of the mindset of
how conferences have run up to this point.
And you have to stop thinking about, well, they're in a
conference and so they have to play everybody at least.
Once I don't think that's necessarily how it is.
Because I look at this kind of Big Ten revamp where there are
Coast to Coast Conference and it's like, well, they're more of
a brand and within that brand there are subdivisions or sub
conferences, kind of like the NFL where you don't play every
team every year, In the NFL but you're all part of the NFL and
it's you might meet a team in the Super Bowl that you've never
met before in the regular season but that's okay.
And we're just we're cool with that.
This is why honestly, I've been advocating for Big Ten expansion
out to 20 or 24 because it's like at this point, it's more
about having a suite of athletic brands rather than just having
the best school here or there that fits a geographical
profile. So I think for conference
tournaments, if you wanted to keep a traditional model,
there's ways to bracket out as about as far as you want to go
in terms of seating and whatnot. But I think in terms of, you
know, the way that everybody comes together, I would not be
opposed to splitting the conference down into smaller
component parts, and then figuring out how you're going to
do scheduling from there. Knowing that, at the end of the
day, what matters is the television inventory, from a
revenue perspective, and the idea that you're always Going to
be able if you schedule accordingly to protect the
rivalries that you want to protect and that seems to be
what fans are the most interested in at this point.
And it's been one of the disingenuous things I think of
the whole debate is this idea that you know the the
non-geographical interactions aren't going to necessarily be
very exciting to people. I mean look that may be the case
in some instances but again you can redo your schedule so that
you're focusing on geographical. A proximity, some of the best
rivalries that we're talking about in these orientations are
not geographical in nature USC. Notre Dame, those schools are
not close to one another, you know, the like things like that
exist and I think you'll start to see these things be accounted
for in developed as we move forward.
It's just going to depend on where everybody lands and then
what that ultimately ends up doing.
So that's that's kind of how I would look at that.
And then, as far as like, you know, just big can send softball
and baseball to Cali for February.
Yeah, I mean, This point you'd be a fool if you were the
conference, not to try to take advantage of that to some
degree. And I think for something like
to season soccer, it actually makes this sort of thing easier
because you're not having to jam all the games into one fall
crowded schedule, you can spread them over two semesters and that
does help quite a bit. A couple other questions here
and this is actually similar in form elbows in.
How do you see more Big Ten teams impacting basketball
schedules lesson on? Conference games not playing
every Conference Team essentially, just answered this.
I think it depends on the number of teams.
If you have 16 teams you're going to have to write, you
know, ratio it out to where you play everybody at least once,
which is going to reduce the number of teams that you're
playing twice and that's again it's not ideal the I mean unless
you get to a point where you just like we're going to split
it and so you know, if it's 16 teams and that's it.
Perhaps you have an eight-team division, an Division.
And everybody plays everybody else in there once and then you
play essentially all, but two of the teams in the other division
once and that gives you your 20 games, I do that you're going to
see more games in the conference.
Like I said, and if it's 20 teams or 20 games in the
conference, I don't think you're gonna see any less
non-conference games. The one question mark ends up,
being does The reorganization of things in college sports, mean
that these big conferences try to cut some of the smaller
conferences, out of like the NCAA tournament.
I doubt that that would happen but you know, that might be the
change that we're talking about in terms of non-conference
games, but I think that will mostly stay the same.
Let's see, we had a big question from Ross Baker.
If we stay at 16 schedule is probably three protected Rivals.
Is it for football, Purdue, Michigan State in Maryland.
That's one. I've seen banded about.
I've seen Rutgers in place of Maryland, at 20 or 24.
We risk being stuck in a pod with Michigan Michigan State, in
order to aim and heaven forbid. Ohio State seems like, things
are about to get much easier or much worse than the Big 10 East.
That's his for Indiana. Look, I think I don't think
anything can get much worse than the Big 10 East and football.
Do you know it, even that scenario that you described, you
know, I think there'd at least be some flexibility for the
other four teams, having some winnable games in there and
Michigan State's at least someone on your level.
But I really think they're going to have to go to either a more
subdivided system or smaller pods even if you get to 20 or
24. Actually, I think if you got to
24, you've got essentially to l've team divisions at that
point and I think you just play everybody within your divisions
without having crossover games, I think that's that ultimately
ends up. Being how that works.
Also, big risk going to Ten Conference games once you expand
past 16 for football. That might happen.
I, I don't know. I mean, it's interesting because
we're just now a few years into the nine-game conference
schedules, 10 game conference scheduled to certainly a
possibility. I don't think we're gonna get
there quite yet though, because there's We got eight seven or
eight years, still nine years, maybe even more than that, for
some schools of non-conference opponents, they've already Inked
contracts with. So I think for now at least the
idea of three non-conference opponents, probably stays the
same, even if it means you're playing less of a proportion of
your overall conference schedule against conference against
Conference teams. So yeah, that's that's that one
from from Ross and he had one other item as well.
Actually, which was Basically asking something similar in
terms of like you know, just can you get to six wins if your eye
you Football under this circumstance?
If you go past sixteen teams and I look, I think so IU football.
Ultimately in this new revamped setup is just going to have to
devote more money to football and you know, just be more
resources, more on it and more on, I owe money.
You know you're going to have new recruiting Vistas opened up.
Maybe that causes people to consider I you Ball in ways that
they hadn't before. But that one way or another, if
you want to be competitive, You got to figure out a way to
expand what you're doing with football beyond words currently
at and that's taking into account that the last 12 years
of IU football have done. A lot of those things with
facilities expansions and with money being paid to coaches and
with higher caliber of recruits coming in on a more regular
basis, like a lot of that works been done already but more that
will have to be done. Like, this is just the base
being laid. Now it's like we got to elevate
even Beyond if you want to be competitive and get to that
magical six and six number, I asked a couple of questions here
and then we're going to wrap up. Let me search for one that
hasn't been asked as to the similar question from striped
ology, what are the odds? I you gets any break in a pod
structure, seems inevitable, they won't because actually end
up worse again. I think the Pod structure that
would be happening if Indiana and Purdue are playing every
year and Indiana and Michigan State, or playing every year and
then you've got a third team or a fourth team in the mix.
You know that still leaves you somewhere between five and six
games. On a rotational basis.
And if you're locked in every year just to playing Purdue
Michigan State, and one other team, even if that other team is
a Michigan, or Ohio, State or a Penn State, I'd still argue.
That's better than the current situation.
And so look, I think Indiana football is going to have a long
row to hoe, but I think Purdue will as well.
This is not great for Purdue, it's not great for Illinois.
It's not great for Minnesota, it's not great for Northwestern.
It's not great for these these football brands in the Big Ten
10, or football brands in air quotes that have struggled to
maintain the consistent level of competitiveness, and it just
means you're going to have to adapt.
But I also think that, if the end of the day, adding more
teams to the conference is going to even the schedules out
because this 14-team Arrangement, that they came up
with after Maryland and Rutgers join the conference has put
Indiana, probably in the worst scheduling position they've ever
been in in the program's history and that needs to change.
You know, I think that there's one more win potentially every
year for Indiana may be slightly more than that on average under
a system that doesn't force them to play in the Big 10 East every
year. So anyway, we want an hour which
I didn't think was going to happen.
I was aiming more for 30 minutes but I'm glad we got a chance to
talk with you folks about all of this, it was fun.
I appreciate all the questions. I know this is a crazy time as a
lot going on and it's hard to keep track of everything but
we'll try to keep a an eye on things as we move forward and
hopefully be able to give you some more insights, you know, be
careful about what you read. Be careful about what you see on
social media. There's already a fake, you
know, Big Ten Or Big 12, commissioner account, that's
caught a couple of people. Not a lot of people are going to
really know what's going on with any of this and that includes
people in athletic departments, you know, the USC UCLA stuff.
From what I have learned was not, well, known and it's one of
the reasons why I didn't leak and that was very last minute
now, obviously, Talk started like two months before.
So, that should give you an idea.
If that was the case of how few people are probably in the
circle of trust, with most of this information.
So, be cautious. And, you know, the one thing I
would say is try, you know, if you have an opportunity try
reading about histories of college sports and try to
understand how these programs interact with each other, try to
understand some of the backstories that led us to the
certain. This current point one of the
big issues. I think a lot of people Have
that haven't studied this stuff closely is it's easy to get
caught up in current competitiveness, it's easy to
get caught up in the narratives that get spun today in stories
and articles about what's going on in college sports.
But what really matters in college athletics is kind of the
long tail and understanding, not just where we're at, but where
we were, and how we got here. And so, you know, there's
there's some good books out there about things.
There's such as Two resources now to help you understand, like
even who was in conferences with each other 30 or 40 years ago, I
think God has some bearing on what's going on right now.
And so, as we move forward, I would recommend trying to brush
up on that a little bit, and get a better sense of where things
are at. Because I think it'll give you a
better understanding and maybe your reactions to certain news
and certain things happening will be a little different than
whatever your current knowledge base provides.
Anyway, thanks again for joining me.
Thanks to all of you for writing in questions.
We'll be back with more Crimson cast later on this week.
Probably probably at least one more this week and then we'll
have some stuff next week as well.
And any breaking news will cover as well on the Twitter feed.
Thanks to our presenting, sponsor own field of peril and
thanks to the rest of the fine folks at the back home network.
I'm Galen, clivia will catch you.
Folks on the flip side for everybody.