1 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,960 You're listening to the Back Home Network presented by Home 2 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:22,120 Field Apparel. All right, folks. 3 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:24,520 Welcome back to Crimson Cast. Scott here with you. 4 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,240 I'm joined by Ryan Phillips of Assembly Call. 5 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,200 My wife listens to the podcast sometimes, but I will give her 6 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,920 credit when we started doing this couple years ago and we 7 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,920 called it the two Co pilots, no pilot podcast, which I love. 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,240 She's like, that was really like one day she's like, I listened 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,800 to that was really funny. I'm like, oh, are you listening? 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,920 She's like, well, I listened to that and I stopped listening 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,440 like gay one's really good. It's like, all right, I'm enough 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:48,440 out of you, babe, like we're done. 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,720 But so this is our our annual. We should do it like semi annual 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,880 crossover that the two Co pilots. 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,760 I just had a moment where I'm like, all right, where's the 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:57,840 where's the Crimson cast intro music? 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,120 You know, we're already at 10,000 feet and the, the, the 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,200 planes a little bit shaky, but Ryan man, how you doing? 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,120 I'm good man. We're the guys that don't don't 20 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,280 do ad reads. You got to pay us extra for 21 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,720 that. It's so I'm good, man. 22 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,280 I'm good a lot, a lot going on in the last couple. 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,440 We've been trying to set this episode up. 24 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,440 I've just had like, you know, tournament stuff for work and 25 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,240 I've, you know, been covered baseball and all of these 26 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,760 things. So it's been so hard to actually 27 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,240 get time to like sit down. I finally get time to sit down 28 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:26,280 today. My internet's out. 29 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,920 So it's just, it's the world doesn't want this podcast to 30 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,440 happen and we are fighting against it to give it to people. 31 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:33,800 And we're going to make it. It's going to be awesome. 32 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,000 It's going to, when they do the rewatchables of this podcast, 33 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,880 the stories about it are going to be fantastic. 34 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,080 Alright, let's get the bad that reads out of the way. 35 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:42,720 As you know, we are part of the Back Home Network. 36 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,320 Back Home Network is presented by Home Field Apparel. 37 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,440 Ryan, you, you came this year. We missed each other. 38 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,080 I had to come back. Home by like an hour. 39 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,960 But you probably saw a lot of home field apparel in the 40 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,240 Bloomington area. Just probably the upstairs was 41 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,680 all home field. Yeah, it's crazy. 42 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,240 It's so crazy that how that company has gone from like our 43 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,800 little buddies to like a juggernaut now and. 44 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:07,520 Out in the wild, out in California. 45 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,520 Would you say do? You see them out in the. 46 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:10,800 Wild. Yeah, yeah. 47 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,520 Like, you know, there's a lot of USC and UCLA stuff from from 48 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:21,200 from LA down to to the border. It's a lot of UCLA and USC 49 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:21,760 stuff. So. 50 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,440 But you'll see. It's funny, I actually ran into 51 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,320 some of my coffee shop that's a mile from here, ran into a kid 52 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,040 and he saw my IU hat and we started talking. 53 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,120 He was wearing and I he, he took his jacket off and he had a home 54 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,520 field Indiana shirt on because he had just come back from his 55 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:37,840 first semester at IU. That's. 56 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,240 Great. Yeah, So he came up to me and 57 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,920 it's just local coffee shop in San Diego, like, you know, less 58 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:45,320 than a mile. And he was just hanging up. 59 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,200 He came up to go Hoosiers and, you know, we were talking and 60 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,920 they took his jacket off and he had a home field shirt on. 61 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:51,080 And I was like, of course he does. 62 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,640 That's great. Well, if you want to, if you go 63 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,120 to Ryan's coffee shop and you want to impress him as well, you 64 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,960 don't have any home field stuff, go ahead and use the promo code 65 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,200 HOME 23 for 2015% off your first purchase. 66 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:03,920 Yeah, there's a list of schools I approve. 67 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:06,160 We'll put it in the link. Oh, OK, Beautiful, beautiful. 68 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:07,480 Is USC one of them? And UCLA. 69 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,320 Of course, UCLA, come on. No, we were. 70 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,840 We were USC family over here. OK, Oh, you fight on. 71 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,680 You do the fight on. I I will say I'm not that UCLA 72 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,240 has a great look and color scheme like just. 73 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:23,520 No, Yeah, well, I mean, I, I will USCUCLA where they both 74 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,720 wear their home uniforms at the game because about it's the best 75 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:31,240 uniform game, annual uniform game ever. 76 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,680 I think like Notre Dame and Penn State playing is usually a good 77 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,320 one if they were their classics. But but USC, UCLA in the 78 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,360 sunshine at the Rose Bowl on a Saturday, it doesn't get much 79 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,240 better than that from a visual perspective. 80 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,480 Sure, that's hard to be. Call seems not bad as well, 81 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:46,240 let's be real. But. 82 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,080 Yeah, all right. Finishing the ad reads. 83 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,440 We are also on Sub Stack here on Crimson Cast. 84 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,800 Check us out on Sub Stack. We have VIP content. 85 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,960 You can catch all our videos. It's also nice. 86 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:56,760 She's got an e-mail for those of us who are older, you just get 87 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,800 an e-mail saying, Hey, podcast is out and it's like great. 88 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,560 I, I can check e-mail. Definitely. 89 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,840 You don't have to check all the other, you know, social media 90 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,440 things. And then also we are on YouTube. 91 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,600 Check us out there. You can watch us both, right? 92 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,440 You can see Ryan and I, if you don't want to listen to it, you 93 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,280 can watch us do a podcast and it's great times. 94 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,600 We have a we're actually getting a lot of really good comments on 95 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,920 YouTube, just a lot of good commentary and connection 96 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:20,200 through that way. So please check us out on 97 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:21,880 YouTube, subscribe and all those things. 98 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,720 I lost your mic. Oh, I was going to say, nobody 99 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,040 has ever said that sentence in the history of YouTube. 100 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,000 We're getting a lot of good comments on YouTube. 101 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,240 We actually we are they're they're mostly relatively nice 102 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,240 couple people, you know, tell me I say like too much, which is I 103 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,080 it's probably true, but go ahead and record yourself for an hour 104 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,360 is what I would say, and then listen to all your own, you 105 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,040 know, mental and audio ticks and it's it's fun times. 106 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,800 Yeah, it really is. I you don't realize how you 107 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:53,440 actually speak until you are forced to listen to yourself and 108 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,880 watch yourself back. You don't realize all your it's 109 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:57,080 like you don't. It's like you don't know 110 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:58,320 somebody till you live with them. 111 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,680 Until you have to bathe in your own voice and speaking method, 112 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,640 you're never going to understand how it goes because it sounds 113 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,840 great in your head. Everything you're going to say 114 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:08,920 sounds great in your head. This is why and then we'll move 115 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,440 on. This is why when we got married, 116 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,640 my wife and I got married, I did not want to have a videographer 117 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,360 because pictures are beautiful and the pictures look great. 118 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,880 But it's like I don't want to go back and watch a video of my 119 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,480 wedding because in my mind everything was perfect. 120 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,920 Now I'm sure, I'm sure I messed up words. 121 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,520 I probably slipped a little bit. Like I'm sure there's a lot of. 122 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,320 Things ties up center. Center my one of my grooms is 123 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:32,840 probably scratching himself or something. 124 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:34,680 It's like, I don't know any of that. 125 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:35,880 In my mind. It was all perfect. 126 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,640 It was just beautifully sunlit, you know, the golden hour of, 127 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,800 of, of lighting. It all looked perfect. 128 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,080 Amazing. Yeah, It's, it's a smart idea. 129 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,320 I mean, are all you? Kids out there don't don't go 130 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,440 into videography if you're getting a wedding to. 131 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,000 Hire a videographer. Someone's going to have their 132 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,920 phone camera out anyway. It's going. 133 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,400 To Oh yeah, that there was this was pre pre that. 134 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:56,240 You know, I'm saying now for the kids. 135 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:58,400 So let's let's talk three things today. 136 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,840 Let's talk big tournament. I I want to kind of unpack the 137 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,440 Woodson era a little bit as much fun as that was, and then kind 138 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,360 of see where we're going moving forward to breeze. 139 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,600 But you, you, you cover, you know, for Sports Illustrated, 140 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,280 you cover, you know, the the wider landscape than just the 141 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:15,800 Indiana sphere. What are your thoughts on this 142 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,120 tournament First, first tournament with all one seeds? 143 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,920 I will tell you this. I think I mentioned this in the 144 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,600 pod, but if I didn't, here we go. 145 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,720 I have a friend, neighbor who's an accountant who was like 146 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,400 telling me, you know, five of the last seven years, if you bet 147 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,600 money line underdog on every single game in the tournament, 148 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,000 you win money. I'm like odds. 149 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,080 That sounds like fun. I love to gamble. 150 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:38,840 So I set a limit. I was like $10 per game. 151 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,040 There's 67 games, like $670. You're not going to lose all of 152 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,560 it. But I was like, this will be a 153 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,640 fun little experiment. It hasn't been fun. 154 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:49,880 No, you're like, my kids can no longer go to college. 155 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,520 It's. Right, I'm thinking maybe, you 156 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,960 know, double or nothing next year or two hundred a game. 157 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,960 But anyway, it's been a not only has there not been a lot of 158 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:03,000 upsets, I I think the other Galen did a really good pod 159 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,040 talking about, you know, some of the statistical reasons why. 160 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,320 But I think the other thing that's been kind of a bummer 161 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:10,440 with this tournament is there's also have been a lot of good 162 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,120 games. Like even when there's years 163 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,000 where there's not upsets, it's, you know, a one seed could have 164 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,040 a really close call. There's a great ending. 165 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,480 It's like, oh, you know, a one seed beating an 8 seed in a 166 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,120 great game people look back fondly on. 167 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:23,640 That's the thing with a tournament, you know, it's not 168 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,800 just the upsets. You don't see a lot of the 169 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,080 Florida Gulf Coast beating Georgetown because they won by 170 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,840 like 15 points. You see a lot of the Bryce Drew 171 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,840 shots because it's all the last second shots. 172 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,240 And there's, there's really not been outside of Maryland, not a 173 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,520 lot of good games. Well, I think teams play to 174 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,960 their competition a lot in the tournament because you have such 175 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,280 a short amount of time to prepare for each one. 176 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,440 So you don't have, I mean, I'm sure they they have a detailed 177 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,240 scouting outlook, They have all of that stuff, but it's hard to 178 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,680 implement something. We have three days to practice 179 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,000 it on the end, some of these short weekends. 180 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,640 And so I do think the teams play to each other's level a lot and 181 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:58,960 you haven't been seeing that this year. 182 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,240 And, and I'll say there's a couple reasons why. 183 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,560 One, I think the committee is getting really good at seating 184 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,480 teams. I think they're getting maybe 185 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,240 too good. That's there's a lot of 186 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,960 statistical analysis going on. There's a lot of analytics that 187 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,280 go into it now as opposed to just before. 188 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,840 This was your record, you won the ACC, you beat these teams. 189 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,000 These are how many losses you have. 190 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,320 We're going to put you as a one. The next guy down is going to be 191 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:21,920 a 2. Now. 192 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,000 It's there's a lot that goes into it. 193 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,000 The other thing is the transfer portal is that the best player 194 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,880 from Murray, from, you know, wherever I'll just throw a 195 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:36,880 random place out like Murray State is going to Duke now in 196 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,440 his second year. And so I think that you are 197 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,520 getting a lot of funneling of the top players to the top where 198 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,640 you used to get a funneling of the top high school recruits to 199 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,040 the top. You're also getting other guys 200 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,000 now funneled to the top where the money is. 201 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,440 And so I think that the gulf between teams has kind of, I 202 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,440 don't think it's been crazy widened, but it's starting to 203 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,840 stretch and you know, things can still happen. 204 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:00,960 You don't need to have the best players to to win the game. 205 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,960 But I also think we're also in a year where there were four teams 206 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,040 that were pretty much clearly above the rest. 207 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,760 And it was maybe like 5 or 6. But the top four who have been 208 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,720 probably the top 4, you would say for the whole season are the 209 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,800 teams that made the final four. And there's a reason I, you 210 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,600 know, everybody, I, I tweeted this a couple times. 211 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,440 Everybody's giving J Bills crap for an all one seed final four. 212 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,360 And I remember looking at the bracket, I actually didn't wind 213 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,160 up filling one out this year because of time commitments and 214 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,520 everything. And but I was looking at the the 215 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,280 brackets and I'm like, I get how he got there. 216 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,320 Like these are four really good teams. 217 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,800 And when you look at quite frankly, you look at Auburn and 218 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,160 Duke and I know Houston's been great. 219 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,000 Florida's been great, but you look at Auburn and Duke and how 220 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,880 balanced and good, just good they are and how well they play 221 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,440 together and how they're actually kind of entertaining 222 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:53,560 to. I hate Duke, but they're 223 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:55,920 entertaining to watch and they're so talented. 224 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,840 They're clearly the best teams and they've been the best teams 225 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,760 all season long. And so it shouldn't shock us 226 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,480 that they performed well in the tournament. 227 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,520 You talk about the gulf of talent. 228 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:13,240 I've also noticed as Indiana and Big 10 fans, there seems to be a 229 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,160 real just gulf of talent between SEC schools and the Big 10. 230 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,440 You know, watching, watching Michigan State play against 231 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,160 Auburn, it's like, man, they cannot get within 10 points. 232 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,920 Even when they played Ole Miss, I was watching that game. 233 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,160 It's like Ole Miss looks way more athletic. 234 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,440 Well, I don't see this. Let me I want to say this about 235 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,840 Michigan State because I think Michigan State had a phenomenal 236 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,040 season, especially for not having really a star. 237 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:36,480 I thought they had a great season. 238 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,200 That was one of the better Tom Izzo seasons I've seen in a lot, 239 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,320 a long time because sometimes it comes out to him just relying, 240 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,880 you know, they, they wind up relying on one guy too much. 241 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,960 That was such a balance team. They were fun to watch. 242 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,040 They were tough. I they lost significantly to 243 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,400 Auburn. I mean, they made it a little 244 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,560 bit closer at the end, but it was, you know, Auburn had them 245 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:59,640 by about 12 to 15 points for most of the game. 246 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,240 And I didn't think Michigan State was playing that badly. 247 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,440 It was just Auburn's really good. 248 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,400 And you know, they're you know, they they were missing some 249 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,440 shots and it was a slow start for the Spartans. 250 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,560 But like Auburn's just good. Like that was, you know, that 251 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:14,680 was one of those where you can't be upset if that's your team's 252 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:18,400 effort in the Elite 8 and you lose, you can't really be upset 253 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,400 because you were playing a such a good team. 254 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,480 Well, Bruce Pearl is doing there, man, I like it's one of 255 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,440 the funnier things to me too, is the coaches in this are Kelvin 256 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,040 Sampson, who we know his history, Bruce Pearl, who we 257 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,400 know his history. And then Todd Golden, who is on 258 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,880 staff with Bruce Pearl at one of his stops. 259 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,560 You know, so he was through he he learned under Bruce Pearl. 260 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,240 And then John Shire, who is just like squeaky clean guy. 261 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,400 But like the other three are all kind of like playing in those 262 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,400 Gray areas you have to play in in college basketball and then 263 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,160 they getting rewarded for it. It's I want to come back to the 264 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,800 Auburn like the the player comp to the Big 10, but it it it 265 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,840 always I, I find it so funny, especially with what IU did with 266 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,680 Kelvin Sampson, that there is this system within college 267 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,720 basketball in the media infrastructure for exactly what 268 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,480 you're talking about that guys get in the Gray. 269 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,320 People get kind of worked up for a little bit and then literally 270 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,400 maybe unlike any other sport, winning cures everything in 271 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,960 college basketball because they talk about Kelvin. 272 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,280 Sam's like, man, you know, he's just glowing. 273 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,200 Talk about Samson glowing. Talk about Bruce Pearl. 274 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,760 Not nary a word. I remember when Bill Self was 275 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,120 like being investigated by the FBI and they made the final four 276 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,240 and it's like, oh, Bill Self just turning this team around. 277 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,200 Such a nitty gritty coach. Like all of it goes away. 278 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,640 It it is it is so. Yeah, winning cures all, man. 279 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:47,720 Yeah. Winning cures all, but in 280 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,280 college basketball it really does. 281 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,960 It is just they understand they are partners and we're going to 282 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,720 kiss the ass of every college coach and even if they did 283 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,560 something wrong or blew up a program, don't care because 284 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:01,560 they're here now and then they're greedy coach and just, 285 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:03,680 you know, he knows how to get kids doing what he wants to do. 286 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,760 It is it's wild to see and it continues to happen. 287 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,320 And it's so funny when teams get nervous or they they have kind 288 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,560 of their own little, you know, two week media cycle of being 289 00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:16,760 scared about little things that happened on the on the 290 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,240 recruiting side, like those kinds of things. 291 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:19,920 And then it's just like, nobody cares, like. 292 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,440 Nobody cares. What's funny to me is the 293 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,640 hindsight, you know, kind of rewriting of all of that that 294 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,280 like, well, Kelvin Sampson, what he did wasn't that big a deal. 295 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:30,960 It's like, well, no, it's not that. 296 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,880 What he did is he was instructed specifically not to do it, did 297 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,920 it, then lied about it. You know, it's the cover up is 298 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,160 always worse than the crime. I mean, with with Bruce Pearl, 299 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,680 he had Aaron craft to a barbecue and then told everybody involved 300 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:48,760 to lie about it, lied about it, you know, avoided like any kind 301 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,160 of responsibility for it. And that's why he got, you know, 302 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,560 hammered was not because he had a kid do a BBQ, but because of 303 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,440 everything else that went along where he tried to manipulate the 304 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:04,800 process and all that. So I, yeah, I think that people 305 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,840 forgive it because the crime isn't in the grand. 306 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,000 Oh, you paid a player a little bit extra money. 307 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,760 I mean, who cares in these days? And it's like, oh, no, but it 308 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,240 was illegal and we all agreed not to do that. 309 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:16,320 Doesn't mean it wasn't happening. 310 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,360 But don't get caught. And then on top, you know, 311 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,840 that's how it feels with some of the old school guys, you know, 312 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,200 when they get caught, like Rick Pitino, perfect example. 313 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,920 Like he played in those margins for decades, finally got caught 314 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,280 and now he's being celebrated for bringing St. 315 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:31,560 John's back from the dead, Right. 316 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,280 And he's a great, he's a great coach. 317 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,760 He is, but not the best person. Yeah, the, the question for 318 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,880 Samson is this is, I mean, I always looked at it as in a way 319 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,640 I almost don't even blame Samson anymore because like, he's, he 320 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,240 does what he does and he shouldn't have, you know, he was 321 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:48,960 told not to do it. But it's like that's kind of on 322 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,160 IU. Like you hire a guy who's in a 323 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,320 show cause and then you're shocked. 324 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,440 When he wasn't. In the Gray, it's like, what 325 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,240 were you expecting? Like you have, if you hire him, 326 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,320 you have to be willing to play a little bit in the Gray. 327 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,400 Here's the thing that I'm trying to remind people is, and 328 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,320 hopefully this is, we see this with Devries moving forward, but 329 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,000 it's like it's not that hard to turn it around when you're a 330 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,720 good coach. Samson in Year 2 and I, I forget 331 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,320 the exact day he was fired, but it was right in that Michigan 332 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,320 State Purdue range. But on February 19th, they were 333 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,640 22 and 4:00 and 11:00 and 2:00 in the Big 10. 334 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,480 They were headed to a one seed. Yeah, he was. 335 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,000 He was, He was. That was his second year. 336 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,960 I've been having fun just thinking, let's just pretend IU 337 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,960 has stones. And it's just like, hey, we're 338 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,400 we're going to fight through this. 339 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,160 And they just, they just plow ahead and they're like, we're 340 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,600 not firing him. And you know, we have minor 341 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,080 sanctions, whatever. And we just have Samson the 342 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,880 entire time between now and then and now I, I have a hard time 343 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,120 believing, seeing what he's done at Houston, the way that he's 344 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,040 coached, the way he turned it around at Indiana. 345 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:54,920 I have a hard time believing we haven't been to a Final Four and 346 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,320 possibly have another banner. Multiple, multiple Final Fours, 347 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,680 multiple Big 10 championships, no question at all in my mind. 348 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,400 I the guy can coach. He's a phenomenal basketball 349 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,080 coach. I mean, there's no question 350 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,160 about that. You saw it at Indiana in his 351 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,640 brief tenure there. I mean, what he was able to do, 352 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,120 they were the one of the best teams in the nation in his 353 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,240 second year. And I mean, we know there's a 354 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,200 lot of garbage going on behind the scenes, not just with the 355 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,040 recruiting stuff, but with the players as well. 356 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,280 But he put together a really good team who was really tough. 357 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,680 And I think that you're right about Indiana not playing the 358 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:30,760 Gray. I think that there was a 359 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,280 disconnect really about the greater world of college 360 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,200 basketball. But not only that, but the idea 361 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,000 that this has happened a couple times in Indiana where the 362 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,160 athletic director doesn't really make the hire and that that 363 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,920 comes from above. And I think that it was Rick 364 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,320 Greenspan at the time tried to put guardrails in because I'm 365 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,600 sure he knew that Kelvin, that was not the only thing Kelvin 366 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,520 Sampson had done. And so he tried to put the 367 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,000 guardrails in place and basically said, I'm washing my 368 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,560 hands of this because this is the best I can do is hire this 369 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,280 guy and put the guardrails in place. 370 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,680 And the guardrails was very firmly in place. 371 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,359 It wasn't like they were misunderstood. 372 00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:12,480 Everybody who covered the team knew the rules, not just the, 373 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,440 you know, So everybody on the team and then, you know, they 374 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,520 Blake them break them and not just break them once it was 375 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,200 flagrantly just being like, yeah, who gives a shit? 376 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,000 Like, you know, I mean, it was and then they got caught doing 377 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,319 it. And so I, I think there was just 378 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,400 a there, it has always been a disconnect in Indiana of like 379 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,520 how you win and like doing it the right way and all of that 380 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,200 stuff. And then the greater landscape 381 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,000 of college basketball, what that means. 382 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,200 But not only that, there's disconnect between 383 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,360 administration, athletic department boosters, like that 384 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:47,200 has not been in a straight line. And so when I heard Darren 385 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,560 Devries say at his press conference that everybody is 386 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,880 aligned, I laughed actually, because, you know, if that's 387 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,400 true, that's amazing. But that has not been true at 388 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,120 Indiana throughout history. And that's how you wind wound up 389 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:00,920 with a. At times, the program was 390 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:02,840 lagging behind in infrastructure. 391 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,520 Now that's been fixed. But then you have the disconnect 392 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,240 with certain hires and all of that stuff. 393 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,080 Or some people want one guy, some people want others. 394 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,200 Doesn't ever feel like everybody's on the same page. 395 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,120 And if that's true, then Indiana is headed the right place. 396 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:20,800 But yeah, it's not necessarily always been true in the past. 397 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,640 Well, and that was, that was an interesting time because like, 398 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,000 like you, like you said there, there was just differing views 399 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,480 of how things should go. And you know, that's also you're 400 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,680 you're what, like six to seven years removed from your last 401 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,880 Final four. You know, Samson is really kind 402 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,400 of the first outside higher coach after night. 403 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,400 You know, Davis was obviously the coach, but that was a 404 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:42,840 different situation. And you? 405 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,800 Yeah, it was an interim to full time. 406 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,880 Head coach was an assistant. You didn't have a a cert like 407 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,600 we're going to go out and grab somebody. 408 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,800 And I think there was still that feeling of, you know, we we have 409 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,640 to win, but we want to win the right way. 410 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,240 It it, it is the great time machine question. 411 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,960 If you just kind of stop everyone in the middle of that 412 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,680 season, like, hey, if you fire this guy, just letting you know 413 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,760 you're not going to be in the Elite 8 for the next 17 years, 414 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,000 Are you still cool with that? Because I think, I think that's 415 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,840 what's changed. And again, I, I'm we can change 416 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,160 topics. Like I don't think Devry's doing 417 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,320 it the wrong way. But I, I do think looking back, 418 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,600 like at that time, I think a lot of people were like, hey, man, 419 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,080 you got to do it the right way. Like get rid of Samson. 420 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,920 Get rid of Samson. I now look back retrospectively 421 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,320 after 17 years of kind of a barren wasteland of winning, 422 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,040 kind of being like, yeah, maybe what he did wasn't that bad. 423 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:25,920 Wasn't that? Bad. 424 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,120 Yeah. No, we want to convince 425 00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:28,840 ourselves that that was the wrong move. 426 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,360 Yeah, And honestly, I'll say I think that it was the right move 427 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,080 given the times and the circumstances. 428 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,840 And also they knew all the bad stuff going on. 429 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,800 But once they started digging, they knew all the bad stuff 430 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,880 going on behind the scenes with the way the players were acting 431 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,800 around campus and all that. Like that became known to them. 432 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,360 And I think it was the kind of thing where it was like we need 433 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,080 to end this like, you know, because, because if this has 434 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,200 come out, more is going to come out And and, you know, basically 435 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,880 when they, you know, Tom Crean arrived and not wanting to hit 436 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,640 the reset button, I think that gets lost too, because everyone 437 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,760 said, you know, remembers the year where he had a ton of walk 438 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,360 ONS playing all the time and all that. 439 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:09,400 They won, you know, six games or whatever. 440 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,400 He didn't want that. He thought he was inheriting a 441 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,680 stack of players that, hey, these guys are 22 and 4. 442 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,800 We're going to kick some of them off the team, but we're going to 443 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,640 keep like this handful of talented guys and then build 444 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,000 from that and whatever. And then he got on campus and 445 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,200 they pulled back the curtain and he's like, well, you can have 446 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,800 three of them. And he was like, can I just do 447 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,240 none? And like, you know, like, I 448 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,680 mean, I think it was, you know, one of those things was like, if 449 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,280 I'm not getting 6, like why have the three? 450 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,680 And, you know, and he knew he would get a little more leeway, 451 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,360 I think, if he hit the full reset. 452 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:44,600 And so, yeah, it was a weird time. 453 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,560 I mean, I was there. I was covering the team during 454 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,880 that for. The other retrospection I want 455 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:49,880 to talk it was. Crazy. 456 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,840 But the other retrospective thing, I brought this up on one 457 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,520 of our coaching pods with Galen. He he, he was doing a, a pod 458 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,960 with Tony Adronia and they were talking about Crean. 459 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,880 And Tony said something about, you know, the first three years, 460 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,000 like, you know, you, you, you kind of, you know, can't really 461 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,200 count him. I forget what he said. 462 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,680 I was thinking to myself, I talked to Galen like nothing has 463 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,360 ever swapped in my mind more than the first three years of 464 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:12,920 cream. Because like in the time, it's 465 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,760 like, all right, these years can't count. 466 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,560 Or the 1st 2 maybe the third is like years like. 467 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,320 I mean, he was. It was a smoldering pile. 468 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:20,480 Of rubble. He had the rubble. 469 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,320 Those two can't count in his record. 470 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,480 And then he got to the end. It's like, well, I did live 471 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,400 through it. Like those, those do count. 472 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,760 And then then you kind of look back and say, well, but his 473 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,760 record really starts from the Zeller year is not. 474 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,320 And they're like whether those two years count like 475 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,400 theoretically to him being good or bad is kind of, it is 476 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,440 oscillated in my mind back and forth. 477 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,360 I think about the point now where you kind of have to count 478 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:44,640 it because it is. I look at it now, it's like it's 479 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,680 two years of and there's a definite asterisk by it, but 480 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,600 it's two years of my life that are just. 481 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,680 Gone. Well, it's like nothing. 482 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,200 Happened there. It's like every president blames 483 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,600 the economy in his first two years on the previous president. 484 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,160 That's what it is. It's like, wow, look, I'm 485 00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:59,960 digging out. I'm digging out from the other 486 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:01,920 guy. I it's you know, you got to give 487 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,000 me time to adjust. It's like you're already running 488 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,720 for re election. Like what are you, what are you 489 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,080 talking about? Like. 490 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,680 That was the year of tariffs, we'll call it like the terror, 491 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,040 the terror year. All right, the apology. 492 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,600 Let's talk Woodson. So I'm curious you're, you know, 493 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,200 we we've had a good run talking about Devries. 494 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,520 Think it's going to be fun looking forward. 495 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,160 We'll get to that near the end. I'm curious your thoughts on, 496 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,880 you know, unpacking the Woodson experiment, the Woodson time, 497 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,480 because there's similar to Korean. 498 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,960 There's a way that, you know, there's a very simplistic view 499 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,320 that some of my friends have told me. 500 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,200 It's like, look, man without trace Jackson Davis, what was 501 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,200 the Woodson years? And it's like, well, he's not, 502 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,960 you know, Chuck's notes. Not sure, I'm just. 503 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,800 I'm sure even further it was well without trace Jackson Davis 504 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,960 and Ray Thompson because those guys were like Ray Thompson 505 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,440 wasn't the statistical guy. He wasn't winning all Big 10. 506 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,280 He, you know, whatever. But those if you go back when 507 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,920 they lost him and Trace, obviously Trace for the talent 508 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,520 and race for keeping the team together and being like the 509 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,720 general on defense, essentially and being like sort of a glue 510 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,040 guy, like the ultimate. I think that in in in the in 511 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,920 fans mind, race Thompson has become like has was so much more 512 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,800 appreciated than he was on campus or others have just 513 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,760 forgotten about him. It's one of the two. 514 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,440 And that guy was the cornerstone with Trace Jackson Davis when 515 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,960 those two guys left. When you lose 2 cornerstones, 516 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,720 bad things happen. I mean, it does. 517 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,720 And, and if you've looked at it, the team does not perform in 518 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,720 close game situations. They allow themselves to get 519 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,600 blown out. All of those things that don't 520 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,280 happen when you have leadership. And so there's just been a 521 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,360 leadership vacuum at the top since those two guys left. 522 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,840 Yeah, it it. What's weird about it is, you 523 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,520 know, we we all question a lot of things about what Woodson was 524 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,400 doing, the way he ran offense, the way he ran schemes and 525 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,640 stuff. But you know, he he made Trace 526 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,000 Jackson Davis a way better player. 527 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,720 Like he in in that respect, he was able to turn him into a very 528 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,440 functional professional player. And you know, his assist rate 529 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:01,960 went up. Like Trace Jackson Davis's 530 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,520 senior year was doing things that he had never done before, 531 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,880 was passing the ball was basically a pseudo point guard. 532 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,560 I mean, he was unbelievable. So there's a part there where 533 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,480 you're like, I, I can see through the forest a little bit 534 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,120 of light in like you can really do that. 535 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,880 I have a hard time finding any other examples of players that 536 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,280 really showed any player development under Woodson, which 537 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000 is kind of the bizarre thing, 'cause it's like he could do it. 538 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,200 Or maybe he just did it once and was like kind of the Woodson 539 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,640 thing, like, well, I'm good and go have a cigar like. 540 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,400 We go back this. Is the draft? 541 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,160 I'm out. I think a lot of what he did as 542 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,200 far as was just unlocking guys who were already talented like 543 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,920 Jalen Hood Trifino came up. It was much better at the end of 544 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,800 his freshman year than it was at the beginning, but Jalen Hood 545 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,480 Trifino was a five star point guard who was already pretty 546 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,160 damn good. It's just a matter of getting 547 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,320 him there. Trace big time recruit. 548 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,480 It was a matter of getting him there. 549 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,000 Khalil Ware came in after a terrible season in Oregon, 550 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,680 became a first round pick and it it's doing great this year in in 551 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,720 the NBA. So I think it a lot of it for 552 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,120 him and he's probably his NBA experience. 553 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:06,040 Help with this was just unlocking the talent that 554 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,280 already existed in guys. He wasn't taking guys who were 555 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,200 at their peak already and giving him that 10% more. 556 00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:16,880 And that's not a knock on him. Like the skill he had for that 557 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,080 is very important. I mean, that's the whole point 558 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,120 of getting a guy from high school to college. 559 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,640 I mean, you can recruit your your your ass off, but if when 560 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,320 the guys get on campus, they don't get any better. 561 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,360 You've just got a good high school player, you know, you 562 00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:30,720 know. And so I think that was his 563 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,920 skill more than anything, was giving guys the confidence to 564 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,600 realize their potential. And and he did that with some 565 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,640 guys he did with other guys. He didn't. 566 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,240 I mean, Tamar Bates is a perfect example. 567 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,960 That guy has gone on and had a really nice career at Missouri. 568 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,240 It just didn't translate in Indiana. 569 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,680 And that that's not a this is really just a Woodson thing that 570 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,720 happened. Yeah. 571 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,480 So, yeah, it wasn't like this massive player development 572 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,200 factory and we just couldn't get it together on the court. 573 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,840 Like, you know, it was selective. 574 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:03,600 But I think that my concern when he got hired, and I was very 575 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,240 vocal on our emergency podcast that he when he got hired, that 576 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,280 the problem is that NBA guys going to college basketball do 577 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,160 not work. It does not work. 578 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,240 It never works. I mean, there are times where 579 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,040 guys from college have gone to the NBA and gone back. 580 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,520 That's different. You have college experience, but 581 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,120 a lot of times what happens with NBA guys coming to college, they 582 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,920 think I have coached on the highest level, which is better 583 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,720 than this. I know better. 584 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,160 I know what I'm doing. I'm very smart. 585 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,200 I'm this, I'm that, like I get it, you don't let me come teach 586 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,560 you basically. And they don't understand the 587 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,120 grind that is college basketball. 588 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,160 And I, and I use this example on somebody called the other day, 589 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,880 Billy Donovan, when Oklahoma City, when he was done in 590 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,000 Oklahoma City, could have picked any college job because of his 591 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,440 success at Florida, gotten A10 year, $100 million contract 592 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,680 fully guaranteed and just gone and been put in whatever effort 593 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,840 he wanted at that place and probably been pretty successful 594 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,040 because he's a good coach. And, you know, if he got 595 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:10,720 obsessed about it, could win another national title, 596 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,840 whatever, But like, could have just cruised at that next place 597 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,080 because they would have been happy to have him. 598 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,160 Instead, he got a chance to coach the Bulls, who were in a 599 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,840 full rebuild. And it's an organization that's 600 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,760 been a mess for a while. And he was like, yeah, I'm going 601 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,200 to take that over the grind of college basketball. 602 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,840 That's what I'm going to do. Brad Stevens, Indiana offered 603 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,880 him. He was on thin ice with the 604 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,400 Celtics at the time. Indiana offered him. 605 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,240 The keys to the Kingdom make him the highest paid coach in 606 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,840 college basketball. This is back when Woodson was 607 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,560 hired. Before they hired Woodson, 608 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,920 offered him whatever he wanted, offered to build infrastructure 609 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,680 around him so he wouldn't have to do all the things that he 610 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,920 doesn't want to do about college basketball, which is all the 611 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,480 recruiting Rd. trips and all of these things. 612 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,240 They offered him whatever he wanted and he was on the verge 613 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,120 of potentially a breakup with the Celtics and he said, no, I'm 614 00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:58,360 good. I'm going to stick this out. 615 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,360 I'm going to see how this works for me being on thin ice, not 616 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:03,880 living up to my potential, you know, that people think and all 617 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,960 of that. It has worked out for him now, 618 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,840 but at the same time, that's the disconnect. 619 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,520 This guys who've been in college and go to the NBA know what 620 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,600 colleges like and don't go back or are choosing not to go back 621 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,400 these days. So when the NBA guys come, they 622 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,680 don't get it. They don't get that is a 365 day 623 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,320 a year job and you have to be a little bit nuts to enjoy that. 624 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,680 It's the same with college football. 625 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,320 College football coaches are a little nuts to enjoy this. 626 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:38,400 And I think that Mike Woodson came in and said I am going to 627 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,240 do what I've always done. I'm going to coach all I've 628 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,160 always coached, and I'm going to treat this like an MBA program. 629 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,920 They tried to build an MBA program in college basketball 630 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,560 where the coaches get a lot of time off. 631 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:49,760 I will say the assistants worked. 632 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,400 His assistants worked I think 10 times harder than anybody else's 633 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,920 assistants because they knew that disconnect and they were 634 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,840 all a couple of them. You know, they've been in the 635 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,600 game for a while and understood, but he basically put the time in 636 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,600 that he would put into an NBA job thinking that because I'm 637 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,480 better at this, because I've been there, I can do it here and 638 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,720 this will be easy. And we saw the results and it 639 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,160 was not. And so I think that in the NBA, 640 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:20,040 I think coaching, the the act of actually coaching is far more 641 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,960 important than it is in college because college, that's about 642 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,680 50% of your job. The rest is recruiting. 643 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,800 It's development. It's, you know, making sure 644 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,600 everybody's on your side by doing these barnstorming things 645 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,440 and being kind of a politician and all of those things and 646 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,360 connections and, you know, relationships with coaches all 647 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,200 over the state, relationship with AAU programs, all of that. 648 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,360 There is so much more to the job than coaching. 649 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,920 And I think that the NBA guys who come down don't get it. 650 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,360 And that was kind of what I telegraphed when I was like. 651 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,560 And I hope he proves me wrong, but that's what I see happening 652 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,200 and it and it's what happened with Indiana. 653 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,800 And, and it's sad because I think that Michael Woodson 654 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,160 coming back and making Indiana a very successful program would 655 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,720 have been a great story, but I just don't think it ever had the 656 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,960 chance of happening. Yeah, I mean, I'll say two 657 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,040 things like one to the coaching, I I agree and I have been, you 658 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,720 know, season tickets with the Pacers for years and going to a 659 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,320 lot of those games, watching a guy like Carlisle coach. 660 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,080 It's also just a different type of coaching in that I always 661 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,120 find it funny like they all time out, they have a 2 1/2 minute 662 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:21,760 time out. Carlyle will talk to his 663 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,720 assistants for like a minute 40 and then come in and say like 664 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,600 three things then be out. And it it's, but it's also like 665 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,960 it's the. Players already know. 666 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,640 The players are professionals. They know and you know, they 667 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,080 know what they're supposed to do and. 668 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,000 You can and, and like I look at that end of game situation as a 669 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,960 prime example when IU Maryland where like see like like 2 guys 670 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,440 go like real quick. He's thinking on the fly and 671 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,360 he's doing something that probably would have worked in 672 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,560 the NBA where it's like, Hey, Bronson, you, you get in like, 673 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,040 and it's like everyone knows, Oh yeah, I got to get in and, and 674 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,680 pro player would get in and he'd understand. 675 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,480 All right, I know that, you know, whoever I'm guarding is 676 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,520 going to go to the fake to the left. 677 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,160 Like you're coaching in the NBA is much more about just 678 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,880 reminding people what they already know in my mind and kind 679 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,400 of being like, Hey, don't forget he wants to go left and don't 680 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,560 forget you got to go slip under the screen on him, but go over 681 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,720 the screen on him and just keep get in mind we're going to run 682 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,440 play four and like go to it. It's so much more fundamental in 683 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,080 XS and OS in college. And it has to be more feel where 684 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,960 it's like I can't do three different things before an 685 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,120 inbound play in college. And you saw that with with 686 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,400 Woodson. The other thing that I was just 687 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:28,400 not prepared for was what you said about like kind of wanting 688 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:33,160 some of the time off, but just how how much dissonance it felt 689 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,880 like there was between Woodson talking about what was important 690 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,080 about being at IU, like just bringing back an alumnus. 691 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:41,840 It, it felt like that would break. 692 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,080 That was at least my hope going into it. 693 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,440 I had a lot of the same concerns you did. 694 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,960 But it's like, all right, at least we're going to bring 695 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,680 everyone together, like everyone together. 696 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,600 And this guy understands that Indiana basketball understands 697 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,080 what we're about and understands the mission and like we'll work 698 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,920 toward that. I don't feel that like after the 699 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,280 Woodson experiment, it almost feels like there's another 700 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,640 fracture in the in the fan base. And I was not prepared for that. 701 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,000 I wasn't prepared for hearing the stories. 702 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200 Like immediately I've hammered on it. 703 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,000 But you know, first year it's like, hey, Woodson's not going 704 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,240 to the state title game in Indiana. 705 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,320 It's like what, like we're not doing that. 706 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,880 And it felt almost like a celebration tour, like, hey, 707 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,680 I've earned this. This is my retirement job and 708 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,880 we're just going to enjoy this for the last couple years. 709 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,560 I I don't know that that's the piece that kind of always is 710 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,040 going to miss me about. The Woodson years is just the 711 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,800 amount of disconnect between bringing this guy back. 712 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,280 It felt if I didn't know, I'd be like, this guy has no idea what 713 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,040 Indiana basketball is about. Wild to say. 714 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,440 Well, and, you know, the way he coached was very different than 715 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,160 you'd expect. Bob Knight disciple, he's going 716 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,120 to coach like very different than than Bob Knight. 717 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,000 I mean, like, you know, nothing was the same. 718 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,640 But I think, yeah, I, I I do think that that's, that's part 719 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,600 of it. Is it people, you know, expected 720 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,080 one thing from him and got another. 721 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,440 But it, you know, it's always hard to fire a family member. 722 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,080 Let's be real. That's why you don't hire family 723 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,240 members to work at your company And, and, you know, because 724 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,920 people are going to defend them even when they're not doing 725 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,080 their job. And, you know, the perfect 726 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,840 example is Patrick Ewing at Georgetown. 727 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,440 You know, it's that they were bad under him. 728 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,480 Bad, bad doesn't mean he didn't love the school. 729 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,200 Didn't mean he didn't care. He probably cared more than 730 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,680 anybody on the planet about Georgetown, but he was bad. 731 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,720 And at some point you got to realize someone's bad. 732 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,680 You got to let him go. Regardless of what your, your 733 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,880 connection to the university got you this job, it should not let 734 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,040 you keep this job. You get one or the other, you 735 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,160 know, and like, you didn't earn this job. 736 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,680 Like Mike Woodson was not on anybody's radar as a head coach 737 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,200 in college basketball or the NBA. 738 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,240 He got the job solely because he went to IU and it was a great 739 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,560 player there. And his, his, if you look at his 740 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,520 resume in the NBA, it was not one that warranted the, the, the 741 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,400 Indiana job and all that comes with it. 742 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,200 I think when you hire somebody like that, that's the gift. 743 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,560 The gift is not not firing them. And I've always said this about 744 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,680 high level college basketball with how much money is involved. 745 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,080 If at a place like Indiana, you know, smaller schools, you got 746 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,120 to give guys time, whatever. As soon as you know that 747 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,880 somebody is not the guy, you fire them immediately. 748 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,719 Like I don't care if it's after year one. 749 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,920 If you know that this guy is not going to win a national title. 750 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,480 And that is the goal in Indiana is to win a national title 751 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,960 again, go to Final Fours, all of that. 752 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,239 You want to win a Big 10 title, all of that I know you do. 753 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:34,040 But the goal is to be nationally relevant again and that's the 754 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,280 amount of money you put in the resources you have, all of that 755 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,000 and the fan base support. You have national championship 756 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,800 level that if you do not have any national championship level 757 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,960 coach, like after one year, if Darren De Vries is, you realize 758 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,120 like that's not the dude, it's not going to happen. 759 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,560 This is not you get rid of him immediately because you cannot 760 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,440 waste four years on something. You know, fan apathy these days 761 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,520 grows very quickly and it takes a lot to get them back. 762 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,280 Once they're out, it's hard to get them back. 763 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,160 And you're also not building that next generation of fan if 764 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,000 you're really bad. And so there's a lot of 765 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,040 distraction for eyeballs. It's not 1980 anymore. 766 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,200 And so as soon as you know that guy is not the guy, you go get 767 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,840 the best guy out there. I don't care what his connection 768 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,120 is, whatever. It doesn't matter if he's a 769 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,200 family member, doesn't matter if he just hired him, whatever. 770 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,160 Move the hell on as fast as possible because you're just 771 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,640 wasting time. End of last year, everybody knew 772 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,600 Mike Woodson wasn't going to win a national title in Indiana and 773 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,160 some people said no, let's put the big investment in the 774 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:37,840 program. Some boosters, quite frankly, 775 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,280 said let's put a lot of investment in the program. 776 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,480 He can do it if he has the right players. 777 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,800 He hasn't had the right players. Put all this big investment in 778 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,800 and what happened, you ended up in the same place you were the 779 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,560 year before. Regardless of this massive 780 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,960 investment, all it got them all the players he wanted. 781 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,560 So you knew last year it was time to move on and you didn't. 782 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,600 And he wasted a year and the coaches that were available last 783 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,800 year, who knows? I mean, I I'm happy with Aaron 784 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,240 Debris, but there were some coaches available last year very 785 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:07,240 interested in the Indiana job. We know from people we've talked 786 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:08,840 to, all the back channeling, it was going on. 787 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,240 They opted not to go that direction. 788 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,320 And now those guys have been wildly successful elsewhere. 789 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,040 And so at some point you have to just say, this is big time 790 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,840 college athletics now. There's a lot of money in it, 791 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,360 more than there was twenty, 30-40 years ago. 792 00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:29,160 You cannot waste it. It's a precious resource and 793 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,480 you've got to be competing at the top because of the money 794 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,640 involved. You'll pay them out. 795 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:35,520 Like, it's not like they're, you know, you're firing them and 796 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,880 sending them to, you know, the unemployment line, they're going 797 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,840 to get a huge buyout and all of that. 798 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,240 So I think that you just have to be harsher and, and, and really, 799 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:49,040 you know, look out for yourself instead of anybody else these 800 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,800 days. Yeah, no, I I agree. 801 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,920 The, the, the two comps I've always used and they're, they're 802 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,240 getting older and older now. But you look at North Carolina 803 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:59,640 when they hired Brad Doherty, who was a a, an alumnus, that, 804 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:04,040 that third year, they were 19 and 16, six and 10 in the ACC, 805 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,160 but 19 and 16 and they fired him. 806 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,400 You know, the other one that I always go to, I'm going to pull 807 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,920 it up real quick, is Kentucky. And by the way, firing him 808 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,320 quick, how'd that end up? Yeah, well, I'll get to a point 809 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,800 on that. But they they, you know, Billy 810 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,080 Gillespie, it's even worse. I mean like worse than a like 811 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,400 he, he was 19 and 12/8 and eight in the SEC. 812 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,920 You know, that's not awful. There's a winning record that is 813 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,560 500 in the SEC. They fired him after two years. 814 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,200 Just we're not going to take this now. 815 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,920 I agree with you. I also think that what North 816 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,840 Carolina and Kentucky also did there is they had somebody 817 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,520 identify that it's like this is somebody we truly believe we're 818 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,240 not just going to fire him. And then like, all right. 819 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,360 We'll look around, start from scratch. 820 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,720 Yeah, we let's figure this out. It's like they're like, no, 821 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,880 Calipari is our target, so we're going to move to get that. 822 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,920 And you know, Roy Williams is our target. 823 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,360 We're going to move to get that. And that, that's where I've, you 824 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,040 know, I, I've always, I go back to the Archie thing. 825 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:05,560 We're kind of meandering around here. 826 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,120 But like the the Archie. Thing shocking we're meandering 827 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,280 in this conversation. No, no flow with a lot of flow, 828 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,760 no direction with Archie. It's like that was the right 829 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,920 hire in that cycle. I agree, it just may not have 830 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,680 been the right cycle. And and it wasn't the right fit. 831 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,480 I mean, right? This is almost where it's, you 832 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,920 know, like in the NBA, last year was the wrong year to have the 833 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:27,840 number one pick. If you can kind of pick it, it's 834 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,560 like, I'd like to have the number one pick when Wimba 835 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,440 Yama's available, not when you know, hours or whoever were the 836 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,440 first pick, but last year. And you know, I, I, I wish 837 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,360 sometimes that I'm not sure if they're thinking enough like 838 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,160 that where it's like you're near the the end of the Korean era. 839 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,480 It's like this isn't working. Let's we know we're going to 840 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:45,920 have to make a change at some point. 841 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,000 Let's also do it when the prospect pool, what's a really 842 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,560 good draft, so to speak, Earth is you ended up hiring in the 843 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,400 Archie cycle. You go a year early before maybe 844 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:56,680 you go the Nate Oates, maybe not. 845 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,320 Maybe they maybe he's too low end, but it's like I, I, I 846 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,840 that's where I get like, I wonder how much foresight people 847 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,360 are giving into this. Well, and you hope you just got 848 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,520 to get lucky. I mean, honestly, you do, you 849 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,000 really do. And I mean, last year, it's not, 850 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,040 I'm not speaking out of turn to say that, you know, the options 851 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,040 were probably Bruce Pearl and Dusty May and you missed out on 852 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,520 that. And, and I think that while 853 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,000 there's some discussion about it, I think both guys would have 854 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:28,080 come to Indiana and you missed out on that come back this time. 855 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,720 And I think Devries probably is the best guy available this 856 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,640 year. I really do, given his track 857 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,920 record, what he's built, all of that and how he coaches. 858 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,160 And it's not a but it's not a it's, you're right, it's one of 859 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,160 those down years in the NBA draft. 860 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,920 It really is. I mean, there's not like a 861 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,760 marquee coach available. You're trying to get the next 862 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,880 guy coming up and I mean, just to me, it was that way last year 863 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,000 a little bit. But Bruce Pearl has won 864 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,240 everywhere he's been. And again, we're talking about 865 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:55,240 the shady guy. Who knows if Indiana would have 866 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:56,800 wanted to swim in those waters again. 867 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,400 But you had options this year. You know, Ben McCollum seems 868 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,840 like a nice coach, a a pretty good coach and Darren Devries 869 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,160 and some other guys floating around out there. 870 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,840 But there was no slam dunk hire this year. 871 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,960 And again, it's a lesson in. And again, I, I'm, I'm not 872 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,600 saying I'm disappointed with ending up with degrees at all. 873 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,160 I, I really like him and I think he's going to be very successful 874 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,800 in Indiana. But it is that thing, it's that, 875 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,000 you know, the butterfly effect of not making that move last 876 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,680 year when you knew it wasn't going to work out, wind you up 877 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:35,600 with a different candidate pool. So, yeah, it, it's, it is it, it 878 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,240 is very interesting how those things change. 879 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:42,120 If they'd let Mike Woodson go a year before, who do they wind up 880 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,360 getting Crane? You know, it's, it's, and then 881 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:45,920 you know what, how does that change? 882 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,200 Or, I mean, do they wind up getting Samson? 883 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,720 And then it's, how does that change download? 884 00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:51,840 Does that lead to crane and, and all that stuff? 885 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,600 So it's, yeah, it's, it's fascinating how that works. 886 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,720 But you know, you are where you are because of what happened. 887 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:05,120 And I think that very early on it was clear that the the 888 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:06,600 Woodson thing wasn't going to work. 889 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,320 I remember getting a text the night they lost to Miami and it 890 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,280 was from the inside the program, who is a big Woodson supporter, 891 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,200 and it just said that was the end of the best season Mike 892 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,520 Woodson will ever have it Indiana. 893 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,600 And it was out in the 32 and they'd gone, I think 12:00 and 894 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,080 8:00 in the conference. And he just said that's the end 895 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,000 of the best season he'll have. He won't do better. 896 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,640 And I was like, really like, I mean, he's building an 897 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:29,920 infrastructure. They made the tournament 898 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,720 back-to-back years. And he was like, no, it's not 899 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,040 that's that's the best it's going to get. 900 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,120 And I was just like, that's not good because it was somebody 901 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,800 who's a big time cheerleader of the hire so. 902 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,360 Yeah, it it didn't work. It just, it didn't. 903 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,760 It did it, it just didn't. And I think that, you know, I, I 904 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,280 think a lot of and, and some stuff has come out on this and I 905 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,240 don't want to dwell on it, but there was a lot of like petty 906 00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:56,080 squabbles behind the scenes and like things where people just 907 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:01,000 aren't like viewing the actual problems and that, you know, 908 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,880 getting these little kind of spats behind the scenes and 909 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,680 making those the focus as opposed to like the big picture. 910 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,320 And I think the effort in recruiting just wasn't there. 911 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:11,680 And I think that was true of Archie too. 912 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:12,920 That's not just a Mike Woodson thing. 913 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,360 I will, I will say again, guys like Kenny Hunter and Roseman, 914 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,320 like those guys worked really, really hard. 915 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,480 They did, but they were up against it. 916 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,000 And Indiana was in it for a lot of top recruits because of their 917 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,080 effort and they didn't get them because the relationships just 918 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,440 weren't built at the top. And, and there were guys who 919 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,560 wanted any excuse to go to Indiana and we're not given one 920 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,720 by the people at the top. And so I think Brandon Mullins 921 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:44,360 fits into that category, as does, you know, obviously Liam 922 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,520 Mcneely and Derek Queen. And there are a couple guys who 923 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,520 just who really loved Indiana, really wanted the. 924 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,840 Moments in the tournament. The small moments in the 925 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,560 tournament. I mean, yeah. 926 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,080 And, and just we're not, you know, I I just think it was a 927 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,680 fundamental misunderstanding of the role of a head coach in in 928 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,120 recruiting. And again, Indiana asked for 929 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,000 that by hiring a guy who'd never done it before. 930 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,000 I think you've, you've mentioned this before, I'm stealing this 931 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,640 from you. But it's, it is funny because 932 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,520 people say, well, you know, if you just could have given him 933 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,720 like, you know, a good assistant coach or a GM, it's like they 934 00:43:13,720 --> 00:43:17,000 did, they gave me that and he just didn't use them and fired 935 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,840 him. He just didn't speak to Thad 936 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,360 Mana. I mean, you know, Thad Mana was 937 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,160 brought in and that was a Scott Dolson thing to be like, I'm 938 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:25,680 going to make this palatable to people. 939 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,480 And dad has always loved Indiana basketball and these was, you 940 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,720 know, whatever he's always like kind of danced around the 941 00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:35,000 periphery of like potentially for a while is potentially he 942 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:36,720 would be the coat, like, you know, all that stuff. 943 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,040 And he brought him in and he said, please, you just got to 944 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,320 run college basketball, run a college basketball program. 945 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,160 And they just, they never, they never had anything to do with 946 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:46,680 each other. And that was not that Moda's 947 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,000 fault. Woodson came in and basically 948 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,480 said, I know what I'm doing. I don't need a babysitter. 949 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,200 I don't need somebody to teach me how to win basketball games. 950 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,800 If that Moda's like one of the best Big 10 coaches the last 951 00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,640 like 30 years. I'm right. 952 00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:03,080 My, my, my office is literally right down the hall. 953 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:04,880 Doors open. I'm just going to leave the door 954 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,760 propped open. Come in whenever, come say hi, 955 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,720 call me. You can yell down the hall and 956 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:11,760 nothing. You know, they. 957 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,360 I think people envisioned them, like, watching film together 958 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,040 and, like, working on, you know, nothing. 959 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,880 And he was gone. I mean, that shouldn't have even 960 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,400 unpacked his bags. Like it, like, honestly, it was. 961 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,800 Yeah. I, I Yeah. 962 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,000 Yeah, but it also the last historical thing I'll say is, is 963 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,840 this is where, you know, we talk a lot of football and Crimson 964 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,960 cast. Obviously this is where Signetti 965 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,440 changes everything for everybody. 966 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,400 And and what I mean is if, you know, there was a time 18 months 967 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,960 ago where you still had Woodson and Tom Allen as your head 968 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,000 coaches. And my joke was kind of like if 969 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,040 you're Pam Wit and at some point you go to Dolson and like, hey, 970 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,520 what do you do here? Like how how is your hiring 971 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,240 going? But you know, the the hiring of 972 00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:03,840 Signetti changed everything had had you kept one more year of 973 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,080 Alan or the OR they hire. You know that isn't Signetti 974 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,880 doesn't work. There's a world where dolson 975 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,880 just doesn't have the, you know, ability to to make this call 976 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,360 where it's like, look, we need to change at athletic director 977 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,040 before we make a change at head coach, because we don't trust 978 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,320 your steady hand at this. But you know, you you hire 979 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,480 Signetti and that buys you an unbelievable amount of 980 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,440 rightfully so goodwill that you can now move with this. 981 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,400 So it, it, I, I think things are drastically worse if we don't 982 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,080 have the signeti effect in IU athletics with IU football 983 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,880 because you're probably burning it down to the studs again. 984 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,320 Well, yeah, and and and and Dolson wouldn't have had the 985 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,880 cache to start doing what he did. 986 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,000 And, and basically from how I understand it, and I've been 987 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,680 told this by multiple people, is in Atlantis where they got blown 988 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,960 out twice. That's when he started sort of 989 00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,200 consolidating behind the scenes, not saying like I'm going to 990 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,080 oust him, but consolidating support behind the scenes, that 991 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,120 if this goes off the tracks, we got to make a move. 992 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,120 And there were people genuinely Mike Woodson, I mean, we've 993 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,840 heard from, you know, his interactions, he said this a 994 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,120 lot. And I know people have said 995 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,440 this, people shout it down, but he basically was telling people, 996 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,400 I'll be here as long as I want. This is my job and I'll be here 997 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,680 as long as I want. And we've heard that from other 998 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,440 podcasts, we've heard that online and people have shouted 999 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,080 down and said that was happening behind the scenes is he was 1000 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,880 telling people I'm, this is I basically I'm going to be here 1001 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,400 as long as I want. And the reason why is because he 1002 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,520 had the backing of some very powerful people. 1003 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,560 And so he thought he was secure and he had the leg room to do 1004 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,680 whatever he wanted. I think after the Signetti hire, 1005 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,400 Dolson felt like, OK, I can push back against this now. 1006 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,200 I, I'm in a position where I've proven myself. 1007 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,560 And now if I think we need to move on, I'm going to exert 1008 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,560 myself and, and do that. And, and he was right. 1009 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,960 I mean, and so I think Atlantis was around the time that it 1010 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,480 started to, you know, if this doesn't get better, we're moving 1011 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,600 on. And that's sort of how it played 1012 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,120 out. And I think that they wanted to 1013 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,880 give him a dignified exit, but they were ready to to to get it 1014 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,880 done pretty quickly. And I think the big thing what 1015 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,720 we all know why it happened, when it happened, it was because 1016 00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:17,400 Michigan was coming to town with Dusty Bay. 1017 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,640 And that is why it happened. When it happened had nothing to 1018 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,840 do with Mike Woodson deciding at that point that I'm going to 1019 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,440 retire. It was Indiana being like, this 1020 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,840 is going to get real ugly and an Indiana legend is going to be 1021 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,120 buried. We cannot have the visual or the 1022 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,040 audio of that happening. And it's. 1023 00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:37,880 It's a bummer. I hope, I hope we can move 1024 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:39,360 forward. I want to talk to Breeze here at 1025 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,840 the end, but it is it's a bummer, but it also it is nice 1026 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,960 to know that IU fans are being listened to it at some point in 1027 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,040 that, you know, it felt like that the final dagger blow for 1028 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,120 Archie was them getting booed off the court in, you know, 1029 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,160 Indianapolis. And then it does feel like not 1030 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,120 only the Michigan game, but that lost to Illinois where you're 1031 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,760 just the doors are blown off. People are, you know, getting 1032 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,080 cranky in the stands and people are leaving at halftime. 1033 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,960 I'm not advocating booing. I'm not saying you should Boo or 1034 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,240 yell or any of that stuff. But it, it's, it does come to a 1035 00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:16,080 point at some point for fans who are like, I don't know what else 1036 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,760 to do, But I'm, I'm just, I'm frustrated with this. 1037 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,160 And it, it does feel like at least the athletic department 1038 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,920 can feel when like, oh, this, it shouldn't have to get to that 1039 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,440 point. It's like a car that's, you 1040 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,840 know, revving in the 9 hundreds, Like we shouldn't have to be 1041 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,760 that high. But it does feel like those are 1042 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,040 moments where their departments, like, we can't let this get much 1043 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,800 worse than where we're at. Yeah. 1044 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,320 And that that's exactly what happened. 1045 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:45,160 I think that it that it was, you know, fan sentiment does matter 1046 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,560 when it's reasonable. And there was no reasonable fan 1047 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,400 who could say like this is going great, you know? 1048 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,520 And so I think that that's where it came. 1049 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:57,680 Now, if it's year 2 and again, I, I'm of the opinion as soon as 1050 00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:58,840 you know, it's not the guy, get rid of them. 1051 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,480 I've said that. But like, if it's year 2 and 1052 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,840 they're decent but not great and fans are getting, you know, are 1053 00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,200 booing them at home for a for a bad performance, that's not 1054 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,480 going to lead to much. But I mean, after you're in your 1055 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,840 4th year and you're getting, you know, enhanced by Illinois on 1056 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,640 your home floor like you're done. 1057 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,360 Like, you know, I mean, it's there's a. 1058 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:19,520 Curb stop at Iowa. Yeah. 1059 00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,400 I mean there are fans are allowed to be upset at that 1060 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,680 point. And I think that, yeah, the 1061 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,160 sentiment does matter because those are your paying customers. 1062 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,320 I mean, let's be real, those are your paying customers. 1063 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,200 And at some point it has to be look like it looked out like 1064 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,400 that. And debris is getting. 1065 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,320 I think it's, you know, we make it 5 million a year for six 1066 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,520 years. He should be expected to produce 1067 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,840 a 5 million a year for six years. 1068 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,440 You know, performance just like Woodson should have been able to 1069 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,040 live up to his contract. You know, no excuses. 1070 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,800 You're making that much money. So we look ahead to the debris 1071 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,280 era. The the thing that I'll say with 1072 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,160 that. I I thought was funny that 1073 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,920 people as we did our coach preview on Crimson cast with 1074 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,080 oddly, we never got never got to debris. 1075 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,760 That was he was on our list of like the next round of guys we 1076 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:04,440 were going to do. Thought we had a little more 1077 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,400 time. Some of the comments were funny 1078 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,000 that, you know, we would do some of these guys like McCollum, you 1079 00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:14,280 know, Galen had his concerns with him, but you know, debris 1080 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:15,680 kind of falls into a different camp. 1081 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,240 But people like we, we did the Archie thing. 1082 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:19,600 It's like we can't, you know, another young guy. 1083 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:20,720 We need somebody with more experience. 1084 00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:23,840 We already did Archie and and what I find funny is I I did 1085 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,920 AVIP video about this that we kind of we've hit, we've already 1086 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:28,160 hit every coach sector like this. 1087 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,960 Unfortunately, what happens when you hire 6 coaches in 10 years, 1088 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,800 you know, in 15 years, whatever. It's like we we did the the 1089 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:39,400 assistant move up with Davis that didn't work Awesome. 1090 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,840 You know, we tried the guy with a little bit has a checkered 1091 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,600 pass with Sam Sampson has real high success that didn't work 1092 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,720 out on our end. You know, you, you try the guy 1093 00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:53,040 who has a final four and and it's shown they can do high 1094 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:55,720 level success in cream that ended up didn't working out. 1095 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,400 You get the hot young coach who had one Goodyear tournament 1096 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,840 success with Archie that didn't work out. 1097 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,480 Like we tried the the alumnus with an NBA. 1098 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,640 Like at some point you're going to have to retry something 1099 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:07,680 because there aren't other archetypes you can go to unless 1100 00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:10,240 you're just going to like hire somebody at AD 3. 1101 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:12,280 Like it. I just found it funny that it, 1102 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,120 you know, people were so burned by the Archie thing where I just 1103 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,080 go back to like it didn't work. We don't need to talk more 1104 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,120 Archie. But it's like that doesn't need 1105 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,040 to be an archetype. You take off the board, like, 1106 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:25,120 just work like you. You look through all the 1107 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,960 coaches. Getting a young up and coming 1108 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,520 coach is the way most teams do it. 1109 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:35,040 Yep, and and, and also I'll say this like Archie didn't work not 1110 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,400 because of the method of you getting him. 1111 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,280 He didn't work because he wasn't a fit and he wasn't like a guy 1112 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,640 built to handle a spotlight. Like here's the thing, Archie, 1113 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,080 and and these days you're starting to see guys do that. 1114 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,520 For example, is Greg McDermott at at Creighton. 1115 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,840 He's going to stay there for his whole time, you know, for the 1116 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,160 rest of his career and not move up to a bigger job. 1117 00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,520 And that's a smart thing to do. And Archie probably could have 1118 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,400 stayed at Dayton and become their greatest head coach, like, 1119 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,320 you know, of all time. I like he knows how to coach. 1120 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,680 He's just not good at the big program, things that Indiana 1121 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,920 needed. And at least I believe that's 1122 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,280 the case. I think he knows basketball. 1123 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,760 I think he knows how to coach. And I think his teams play tough 1124 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,480 basketball. Sometimes guys hit their ceiling 1125 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,240 and there's just, you know, and you send them back down there 1126 00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:23,760 and they'll probably do pretty well. 1127 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:30,840 But yeah, it it wasn't necessarily a method or a type 1128 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,840 of coach problem. It was the specific coach at the 1129 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,560 specific place. And now you have debris. 1130 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,280 I you know, at first it was a name a little bit out. 1131 00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:42,880 And I'm, I'm as guilty as anybody else. 1132 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:44,560 You get kind of caught up in the big names. 1133 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:48,400 You, you, you look at those things, you know, I had my eyes 1134 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,200 in other areas. So I'm just like, oh, OK, like 1135 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,000 let's the. But the more I dig into it, it 1136 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,480 does feel like a good fit and and it feels like debris could 1137 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,200 have some real success here. I like a lot of what I saw at 1138 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,680 Drake, you know, of ex's and Joe's did a really good 1139 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,600 breakdown about, you know, the number of wins that a program 1140 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,080 has had and how somebody brings it up. 1141 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,080 Are you looking like Archie, like Dayton was already 1142 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:14,920 averaging? The numbers are not right here. 1143 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,200 Like, you know, twenty wins a season and he got him to 23. 1144 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,880 So like he has a three win gap. Drake was just when he got there 1145 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,080 and he you know, it's like a 15 win differential and part of 1146 00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,320 that's like maybe that's why McCaskill was doing so well at 1147 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,000 Drake. You know, he he maybe on that 1148 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,080 coattails don't know. But then what what really got me 1149 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,280 is the West Virginia thing. When you really dug into it, 1150 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,040 it's like, because initially it's like, man, we're getting a 1151 00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:38,800 guy who didn't even make the tournament last year. 1152 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,280 But it it's like, this is a team that had 100% turnover, like 1153 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:44,800 100%. And that's why I think it's 1154 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:45,880 funny. Now everyone's freaking out 1155 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,000 about us in the portal. A, it's like this stuff will get 1156 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,760 figured out. Some people might come back like 1157 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,520 now is not the best time to take a snapshot of what your thoughts 1158 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,320 are on the program. But B, if anybody can do it, 1159 00:53:58,040 --> 00:53:59,680 that guy just did it in West Virginia. 1160 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,640 I think we have more resources and a better talent pool to to 1161 00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,160 cultivate from. And he just got a team that 1162 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,800 probably should have been in the tournament at West Virginia. 1163 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,360 And oh, by the way, two of his best players got hurt during the 1164 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,320 season and he still was able to do it. 1165 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,120 And he should have been in the tournament, by the way, they 1166 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,720 they no argument that they should have been on it, right? 1167 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,960 So I'm I'm pretty bullish on on what I'm seeing from devries 1168 00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:24,800 thus far. I'm curious your thoughts. 1169 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,960 Yeah, No, I I think that, you know, you look at track record 1170 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,040 first of all, he was an assistant at Creighton in which 1171 00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,920 is one of the most consistent programs in college basketball 1172 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,640 and they do a really good job. He was there and the. 1173 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,560 German coaching tree is turning into a very solid tree. 1174 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,000 And he was there for like 17 years. 1175 00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:42,560 I mean, you know, he was like a big part. 1176 00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,480 It's not like this guy. He's only, it's crazy when you 1177 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,520 look at his resume that he's only 49 because it's 17 years as 1178 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,320 an assistant. And he picked his spot with 1179 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,120 Drake and saw a program that I think that he knew he could 1180 00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,880 develop and he did a really good job of doing that. 1181 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,200 I mean, as you said, like the the turn around there is 1182 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,880 dramatic for them. And then to move to West 1183 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,880 Virginia, which one, I think 8 games last year and take him to 1184 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,920 19 without two of your best players. 1185 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,760 I mean, crazy turn around. The guy knows college 1186 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,640 basketball. If you want to emulate a program 1187 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,960 that's a smaller program, Creighton's a hell of one 1188 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,720 because they're fun to watch. They play a great style of 1189 00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:27,120 basketball. They're always good. 1190 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:32,120 They're always consistent. So I think that, yeah, I was 1191 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,560 happy with it. And if you look at, you know, 1192 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,160 where he went with Drake, let's just use that as an example 1193 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,080 because that's the longest term. His first year won 24 games. 1194 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,520 They went 12 and six in conference. 1195 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:44,840 Second year struggled 8 and 10. And that was the COVID year. 1196 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:49,560 So he didn't know post season, but then 15 and 3:13 and 5:15 1197 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:54,000 and 5:16 and 4:00 in conference. He against the teams he knows he 1198 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:58,360 beats them. He had a 70% winning percentage 1199 00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:04,280 at, at at in conference at Drake, 73% overall. 1200 00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:05,800 And then he went to West Virginia. 1201 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,680 Again, West Virginia was a a, a down program and people are 1202 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,920 upset. A good thing is like when a 1203 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,440 coach leaves and people are upset. 1204 00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:17,280 That's a good clue. And again, to win 19 games 1205 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,480 without your top scorer, which is his son and another top 1206 00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,760 player, to win 19 games like that, I mean, Indiana would lose 1207 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,640 a player and fall apart, you know, and he was able to keep 1208 00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,960 them together. I think it's it's. 1209 00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,240 I would also say too that that West Virginia team finished the 1210 00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:37,800 season with with those injuries, they were still the 14th best 1211 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,920 defensive efficiency in the country. 1212 00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,720 With two of your guys gone, the offensive was only 133rd. 1213 00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:46,280 But I I think that. They lost their best offensive 1214 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,920 players. They lost your best players, but 1215 00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,800 you still had one of the best defensive teams in the country, 1216 00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,880 and that's something that, you know, we've just continue to 1217 00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,160 harp on on Crimson cast. I hate to be all, you know, 1218 00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,640 wonky metrics guy, but you look at the teams that have success 1219 00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:05,240 in March year in year out, they are just unbelievably efficient 1220 00:57:05,240 --> 00:57:07,840 in offense and defense. They are in the top 25 of that 1221 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,600 metric almost every single. Time. 1222 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:14,360 There's very few outliers of teams that are not in one of 1223 00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,000 those, not in the top 25 in both of those categories. 1224 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,680 And normally when you see a team that's outside of the top 25 in 1225 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,280 a category, they are one or two in the other, so. 1226 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:25,440 Right now at the Final Four. Right now at the Final Four. 1227 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,160 Auburn's third in offense, 8th in defense. 1228 00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,480 Florida second in offense, 10th in defense. 1229 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,040 Houston, 10th in offense, first in defense. 1230 00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,400 Duke first in offense, 4th in defense, all in the top ten of. 1231 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,960 I'm sure it would be the same. Exactly and and so. 1232 00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,520 So, so the fact that, and you look at his defensive numbers 1233 00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,040 when he was at Drake, they were starting to, you know, 113th, 1234 00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,960 101st, 40th, 73rd, like he's kind of in that range. 1235 00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:51,920 He's pulling it. You know, you're not going to 1236 00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,160 have a top 10 defense year. You're out at Drake, but the 1237 00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:57,520 first year you have some resources you get there at West 1238 00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,360 Virginia. I'm I'm very interested to see 1239 00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,600 what he does, how he pulls things. 1240 00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,560 But I, I think there's a world where we could have a quick turn 1241 00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,840 around in year 1. I don't think we're going to win 1242 00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:09,240 the Big 10 year one, but I don't know. 1243 00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:14,440 I don't see why we couldn't have, you know, be 789 seed in 1244 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,320 the tournament in. The year I expect the tournament 1245 00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,440 team next year and, and I'll say this, I think also at West 1246 00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,680 Virginia when he got some major conference resources, he started 1247 00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,640 recruiting really well too. I mean their class, their class 1248 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:27,240 of. West Virginia than we had. 1249 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,320 Yeah, their class of West Virginia was really nice. 1250 00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:30,840 I don't know if any of them are going to come. 1251 00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,280 I mean, I know it's, you know, because a lot of that is ties to 1252 00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,560 picking the right assistants and the insistence having 1253 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:37,440 relationships. So Chester Fraser, I know did a 1254 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:38,520 really good job recruiting for them. 1255 00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,720 I would, I would have loved to have Chester Fraser at Indiana. 1256 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:42,680 I know some people have a problem with that, but I would 1257 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:46,520 have loved it. So I think that, you know, some 1258 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,640 of that, you know, I don't know if those guys are all just going 1259 00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:52,120 to follow him. I, I, we'll see how that plays 1260 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,680 out. But yeah, he had a great 1261 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,160 recruiting class when he finally got some resources, that was a 1262 00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,440 very encouraging to me as well. It's not only what he did on the 1263 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,800 court, but like the fact that like he moved from Drake to West 1264 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,240 Virginia and wasn't going after Drake players. 1265 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,640 He moved up and, and, you know, knew what he needed to target to 1266 00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:10,520 win at that level and got the guys. 1267 00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,200 Unfortunately, they, most of them probably won't end up at 1268 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:17,080 West Virginia, but you know, and you, you look at who they're 1269 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,320 attached to in the transfer portal early and it's the guys 1270 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,440 you want, you know, and, and again, transfers don't always 1271 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,520 work out, you know, because you're, you're not, I feel like 1272 00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,600 the, the net is so wide with high school players, you can 1273 00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,120 kind of pick and choose and get the team you want. 1274 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,560 Whereas with transfers, you're kind of like, well, he doesn't 1275 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,160 fit exactly, but he kind of does like, let's see how this works, 1276 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,120 you know, and, and it can sometimes work and sometimes 1277 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:45,320 doesn't. But I think that, yeah, that was 1278 00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,800 that was what impressed me the most is not only on court stuff, 1279 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,480 but it looks like he knows how to set up a program 1280 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,480 infrastructure and get the guys he wants to get. 1281 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,960 Yeah, we got a son. That's a good thing. 1282 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,080 Yeah, I thank God that his son was like, yeah, Dad, I'll play 1283 00:59:58,080 --> 00:59:59,720 for you. You know, how could you imagine? 1284 00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:03,360 Like, I'm not going to go to West Virginia anymore, but I'm 1285 01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,080 definitely not coming Indiana with you. 1286 01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:06,800 I'm. I'm done with this guy as a head 1287 01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:07,800 coach. Yeah. 1288 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,240 I'm I'm I'm bullish, I really am. 1289 01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:13,080 I've I've come around and of course we're all fans. 1290 01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,160 We're going to be, but I I think it seems like for the first time 1291 01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,280 we are kind of going in that right direction. 1292 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,560 You know, the only thing I would say, you know, Archie was a 1293 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,840 little bit awkward in his press conference debris definitely 1294 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,440 felt like, you know, he's a coaching coach guy. 1295 01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:32,120 He's not a rah rah guy, but it doesn't it dude, it's one press 1296 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,560 conference, but it doesn't feel like he's scared of of the 1297 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,360 spotlight or the moment. It just seems like he's not, you 1298 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,880 know, going to have great press, you know, moments. 1299 01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,640 But look at it too. Look at, you know, Signetti is 1300 01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,320 awesome and he has good sound bites, but he's also a little 1301 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,400 bit like he's not. Great, you know. 1302 01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,880 On things either he's kind of wonky with his stuff as well. 1303 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,320 Yeah, he's not a, he's not a media darling. 1304 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:58,800 Like he, he, he said some funny stuff and so people latched onto 1305 01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,000 it, you know, the Google Me stuff. 1306 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,720 But other than that, like, name anything, he said. 1307 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,040 You know, he's not exactly a a charismatic guy, whereas Tom 1308 01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:08,440 Crean was the exact opposite. Super charismatic. 1309 01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:16,200 But you know, it's about how they are able to connect with 1310 01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:20,000 the players is what matters. And yeah, you got to get the 1311 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,960 fans on your side and everything, but winning is how 1312 01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:24,480 you get the fans on your side. Yeah. 1313 01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,760 And that's what I said is in the end, this, it's the, it's such 1314 01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,240 the easy answer, but it is the answer. 1315 01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,200 I, I like what I'm seeing. This will all be judged in 36 1316 01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:40,120 months and in 36 months, if we are winning and we're, you know, 1317 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,800 looking to be a protected seed most years out of not, then this 1318 01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,240 is going to work. And if we're not, then it's not. 1319 01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,840 And you know, unfortunately I'm at the point now 46. 1320 01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:50,920 I've been through too many coaches. 1321 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,800 Like I'm a fan. I'm going to root for it. 1322 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,920 I want things to go well, but I'm not going to be so tied 1323 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,560 emotionally to the coaches until they do something to make me 1324 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,000 tied to them. And it just is kind of my 1325 01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,360 feeling. But I think in two years we'll 1326 01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:09,680 have the answer and we'll all inherently know after the next 1327 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,040 two seasons because I think everybody knew after the first 1328 01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:13,800 two years of Archie. Everybody knew probably after 1329 01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:17,680 the 1st 2 1/2 years, Woodson will say, you know where it was 1330 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,000 going that that'll be our answer. 1331 01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:21,840 Right now it's all just kind of window dressing. 1332 01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,040 But I I think we'll know that answer in two years. 1333 01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,800 It's not the fun, sexy answer. Be like you can pick one or the 1334 01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:29,960 other, but we'll know in two years. 1335 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,600 Yeah. And I think that that's that's 1336 01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:33,600 true. And that's where we are with 1337 01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,040 Ambi's. I mean, I think that what you 1338 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,360 want as a fan, I mean, you want success, but at this point you 1339 01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,560 just want hope. And I do feel like it's a lot 1340 01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:42,800 lighter around Indiana basketball in the last couple 1341 01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:44,120 days. I think the big thing is you got 1342 01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,120 a guy with a track record, You got a guy who's done this in 1343 01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:47,920 college basketball. And I think people forgot how 1344 01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,440 important that was when Mike Woodson was hired, you know, 1345 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,040 like, but I also. Love to hear he's a grinder. 1346 01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,040 Like he's always out there working and like just knowing 1347 01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,840 that seeing him at the state title game, working recruits, 1348 01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:58,960 like it's just like, OK, it feels like we're kind of we're 1349 01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:01,600 kind of back. And this guy is I go to bed 1350 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,640 knowing like I think he's out there hustling his ass off every 1351 01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,360 day to try and get players. I'm not sure. 1352 01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,560 I haven't felt that in probably five years. 1353 01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,280 And look, there are going to be bumps in the road. 1354 01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,320 I'm not trying to tell people that, you know, we're on the 1355 01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:14,920 we're on the gravy train now. But I mean, there's going to be 1356 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:16,960 bumps in the road. I mean, every coach has those. 1357 01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:18,920 You know, you lose the game, you should have won and, and all 1358 01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,320 that. But I do feel like the 1359 01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:23,720 trajectory of the program is going to start heading up at 1360 01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,880 this point. And you do have to give somebody 1361 01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,600 time to implement their systems. So I know 'cause I'm, I'm 1362 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,480 sitting here saying, well, if you know, after year 1, fire 1363 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:34,520 him. No, but, but I, you know, but I 1364 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,960 do think you need, you need to give somebody time to develop 1365 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,040 what they want to develop and go where they want to go. 1366 01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,080 And as long as that feels positive the whole way, I think 1367 01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,600 people will forgive it a little bit if it's a struggle in the 1368 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,560 beginning. But I don't expect him to 1369 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:53,480 struggle greatly off the jump. As long as they're able to have 1370 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,520 some luck in the transfer portal, maybe get a couple 1371 01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,240 different high school recruits in. 1372 01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:01,320 It sounds like Sicily's all in, but, you know, trying to get, 1373 01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,080 you see if there's anybody else who wants to to switch up. 1374 01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,280 But at the same time, he has to get some of the right players, 1375 01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:09,720 has to, you know, get his stuff together. 1376 01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,320 And this roster, I think in Year 1 will probably not be what it 1377 01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:16,040 looks like moving forward. But I don't think it's going to 1378 01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,400 be far off. And, and I think that this can 1379 01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,960 be a competitive team next year. The the last thing I'll say, you 1380 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,040 know, you, you, you don't always know after you kind of know 1381 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:28,000 after year two or three. But year 1, you know, it would 1382 01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,000 be nice just to have a good first year because Archie again 1383 01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:36,840 came out against Indiana State at home, lost 90 to 69 and then 1384 01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,800 quietly like two games later lost to Seton Hall, 84 to 68. 1385 01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:43,600 And it's like, man. And then and then, you know, 1386 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,680 don't get shellacked by Duke and Michigan and Louisville and then 1387 01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,800 lost to IPFW. And then that was by by the 1388 01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,360 middle of December, you have lost to Indiana State, Indiana 1389 01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:55,560 and IU Fort Wayne. Both those two games were at 1390 01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:57,840 home. You lost, my God, 92 to 72. 1391 01:04:57,840 --> 01:04:58,680 You lost by 20. I mean I. 1392 01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,400 Mean that was where they hit like 20 threes, wasn't it? 1393 01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:03,320 Or something like that, but. I think we're all looking around 1394 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,800 like what what's going on, what's going on? 1395 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:07,320 Like this was supposed to be different. 1396 01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,720 And then, you know, Woodson started off better but did 1397 01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,200 finish that first season. They lost five of seven. 1398 01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,800 And you know, they they made the tournament. 1399 01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,440 But I would say going into the Big 10 tournament, they were not 1400 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,520 in the NCAA tournament. They were, they were on life 1401 01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:22,960 support. And even in that game against 1402 01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,920 Michigan, they were kind of zoned out for the 1st 15 1403 01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:28,000 minutes. They have, like I remember 1404 01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:30,480 saying, I think they have 48 good minutes of play in the Big 1405 01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:31,960 10 tournament. It was like 8 minutes against 1406 01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,920 Michigan, 40 against Illinois, and then they played pretty well 1407 01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,960 against Iowa. But all that to be said, there 1408 01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,000 was a lot of warning signs in the first year of both Archie 1409 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:43,280 and Woodson. And so that is my hope is that 1410 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:47,400 under De Vries in the first year we have we don't have one of 1411 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:50,400 those warning signs. There's not A5 game losing 1412 01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:51,920 streak. There's not just an ass kicking 1413 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,720 to a state rival that's not named Purdue at home. 1414 01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:57,680 You know, I hope we can just have a first year where it's 1415 01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,040 like, all right, this feels like we're, we're actually moving in 1416 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:01,520 the right direction. Yeah. 1417 01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:06,680 And, and I think, yeah, I, I think that we won't. 1418 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:11,400 I, I, I just, you know, there might be a, there might be a 1419 01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,520 rough game or two, but I don't think it's going to be, the 1420 01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:16,600 message is going to be as clear as it was with those other guys. 1421 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:21,040 So, yeah, I, I think that what you want from year 1 is just the 1422 01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,760 team to feel like they're not going to be in every game. 1423 01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,240 You're going to have a blowout here or there, like randomly. 1424 01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,360 I mean, that just happens in the Big 10 these days. 1425 01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,000 But I think that what you want is just a feel like this team is 1426 01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:38,400 competitive and can compete at a Big 10 level and be trending in 1427 01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:40,720 that right direction as you get other players. 1428 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,320 And also you want to land some recruits, you know, to have the 1429 01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,680 hope for next year too, instead of having it feel like you are 1430 01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:49,400 resetting the roster every single year, which I know it 1431 01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:51,200 happens a lot in college basketball these days. 1432 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:54,520 But you want to have that core of players who's coming in and 1433 01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:56,000 building. And then you're just 1434 01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,240 supplementing from the transfer portal as opposed to wiping the 1435 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,680 slate clean every year, which is what it where it's felt like 1436 01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:02,800 we've been the last couple years. 1437 01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,360 Agreed. One date to note, I was just 1438 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,280 pulling this up a game that would be nice, a good way to 1439 01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:13,320 start this off December 20th, 2025 IU Kentucky and Rupp Arena. 1440 01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:14,560 That's it's a tough, it's a tough. 1441 01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,560 Putt I am so I'm trying to go so bad. 1442 01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:20,520 Oh really? I'm going to try and go yeah I'm 1443 01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,120 working on it. Have you fun? 1444 01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:24,240 We'll see. I need to. 1445 01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:26,640 I've got my dad and I. Used to, even if you don't go to 1446 01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:29,280 the game, drive down to the neighborhood and go to the bar 1447 01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:33,120 and watch with fans or something, that'd be a good I'm 1448 01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,240 going to pitch that as a back home network event. 1449 01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:38,000 Let's do it. I love that idea. 1450 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,520 Let's do a back home network event around the the game at 1451 01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:42,080 rough. Even if you can't go to the game 1452 01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,480 like, you know, get a bar, meet up at a bar. 1453 01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:47,320 OK, there, there we go. We'll do it. 1454 01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,200 We'll we'll ask Galen to probably do all the work and 1455 01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:50,920 we'll just stick around. It's. 1456 01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:53,560 The copilots, not pilots. Not pilots, Ryan. 1457 01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:55,400 It's been awesome man. Love having you on. 1458 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,200 It's great talking with you. Catch Ryan on Assembly Call. 1459 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,760 You guys got to promote any good Assembly Call stuff coming up? 1460 01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,160 We're going to do something this week. 1461 01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,240 We haven't decided, but keep it, keep it tuned to our Twitter 1462 01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,680 account. We'll, we'll, we'll mention it 1463 01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:08,080 and we'll send it out in the e-mail and everything. 1464 01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:10,600 But yeah, we're, we're trying to do 1A week right now. 1465 01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,000 Everybody schedules a little bit in flux, but we're trying to 1466 01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,560 trying to nail down once a week. We're going to get together and 1467 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:16,800 just talk about everything that's going on. 1468 01:08:17,279 --> 01:08:21,680 I'm also excited to know who gets emergency pods when they 1469 01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,359 sign with you with us or when we get recruit flips like it. 1470 01:08:25,359 --> 01:08:28,279 That's always a fun thing in this time of year is like, oh, 1471 01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:30,920 we got somebody and it, you know, I, I famously don't pay a 1472 01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:32,359 ton of attention. I pay a little more attention to 1473 01:08:32,359 --> 01:08:34,920 the transfer portal but it's like oh if assembly calls doing 1474 01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:36,000 a emergency pod. This. 1475 01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:37,680 Is a good signing. It's good, yeah. 1476 01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:40,920 Yeah, so hopefully we get like 4 emergency pods. 1477 01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:43,840 And we really shouldn't should rename that cause emergency 1478 01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:45,880 makes it sound negative. It should be like excitement 1479 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:47,359 pod. Like I don't know. 1480 01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:49,800 We'll we'll I'll Jared and I'll spitballs. 1481 01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,880 Workshop that the only thing I'll say to you to to pass on to 1482 01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,160 Jared is like it would be fun when when Tucker Devries 1483 01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,200 actually announces. I know it's all just like 1484 01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:57,720 assumed it hasn't actually happened. 1485 01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,279 You should do an emergency pod. For that, yeah, just for that. 1486 01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:03,600 Like we got this player, man, he could, he could shoot. 1487 01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:07,359 He could shoot. Just go at it, Ryan, awesome 1488 01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:09,439 having you check him on assembly call. 1489 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,080 They're doing fantastic stuff as is everybody on the back home 1490 01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:14,880 network. I appreciate everybody for 1491 01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:16,040 listening. It's been fun. 1492 01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,279 And with that copilot to wrapping up, thank you guys for 1493 01:09:20,279 --> 01:09:22,359 listening. Until next time, this is Scott 1494 01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:23,040 signing off.