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You're listening to the Back 
Home Network presented by Home 

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Field Apparel. 
Welcome back to Crimson Cast. 

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Galen Clavio joining you here. 
Pleasure to be talking with you 

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folks once again as we are into 
February, we're into the home 

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stretch for women's basketball 
and men's basketball. 

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Got a lot of great programming 
here on Crimson Cast and across 

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the entire back home network. 
So I would encourage you to 

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check out our women's basketball
coverage, especially we've got 

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the Crimson cast, women's 
basketball Show, Amanda Foster, 

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Kevin Vera joining you every 
week to break down what's going 

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on with the women and talk about
what's coming up some huge games

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coming up in February for this 
IE women's team. 

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Also, they're doing the work 
podcast, which I would also 

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highly recommend you tune into 
as they break down every game. 

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So check out that feed, 
subscribe. 

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It's the women's basketball I 
think we really want to turn our

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attention to. 
This is a program that has 

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really picked itself up after a 
few early season struggles, and 

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they're playing really well. 
So as we get down the stretch 

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here into the tournament, it 
should be fascinating to watch 

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how the ladies end up 
performing, so be sure to check 

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out those shows. 
And also just a reminder, if you

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haven't checked out the Exes and
Joes show, Mike Weemoth and Bob 

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Moats, you need to check it out.
It's a really fascinating deep 

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dive into the college basketball
landscape. 

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It's numbers based, but it's 
also got some wonderful 

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anecdotes and and wonderful 
examples about the way college 

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basketball programs find 
success, sustain, success, hire 

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coaches, things like that. 
So check that show out. 

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I think they're on their 5th 
episode and they've all been 

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tremendous to check out. 
We would love to have you follow

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and subscribe and like them as 
well so be sure to check them 

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out as you move forward. 
The Ex's and Joes podcast here 

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on the back home network. 
Quick reminder we are brought to

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you by home field apparel. 
Your place to go for the finest 

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in college fashion, the softest 
fabrics the coolest designs. 

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So new IU stuff dropping this 
week Stay tuned for that it'll 

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be amazing. 
I think you'll you're they did 

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not miss as and they rarely miss
the the good brand is is almost 

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always right on target. 
Use the code Home 23. 

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Get 15% off your first order 
Again Home Field apparel proud 

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sponsor of the back Home 
Network. 

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Also quick reminder we're on sub
stack crimsoncast.substack.com. 

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Check us out there and you'll 
get podcast delivered right to 

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your e-mail inbox. 
We have a special guest today on

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Crimson Cast. 
We are delighted to be joined by

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former Indiana quarterback 
Chris. 

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Ditto Chris. 
For those of you who have been 

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around IU football for a while, 
that's a name that you would 

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almost certainly remember was 
part of some excellent memories 

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from the early 90s with IU 
football also was there as the 

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Mallory era kind of tailed off 
and and ended up ceasing. 

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In 1996, we had a chance to talk
in depth with Chris about his 

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recruitment to IU, what it was 
like playing under Bill Mallory 

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and that coaching staff, what it
was like being a part of Indiana

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football during a really 
fascinating and kind of pivotal 

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time in the history of IU 
football. 

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We're really appreciative of 
Chris for taking the time to 

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talk with us. 
It's a long interview. 

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I think for those of you 
especially that have been 

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following IU football since the 
70s, eighties, 90s, you'll get a

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lot out of this interview. 
And those of you who have just 

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found IU football recently with 
the hiring of Chris Cignetti and

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some of the successes Indiana's 
had in the past five or six 

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years, this is a nice bridge 
back to the past to hear how IU 

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football operated in a different
era, but a very important era 

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within the history of IU 
football. 

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And joining us on Crimson Cast 
as promised, we have former IU 

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starting quarterback Chris 
Ditto. 

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Chris is gracious enough to join
us here today and I'm looking 

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forward to this conversation. 
Chris, I think I told you this 

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on e-mail when you reached out, 
but I have vivid memories of you

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playing for IU as as a younger 
person myself, right before I 

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got to campus, I got to IU in 
1997. 

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You were there in the mid 90s. 
Great to have you on the show. 

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How you doing today? 
I'm doing great. 

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Thanks for having me. 
Excited for the conversation as 

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well. 
And I guess I will just start 

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off by saying I apologize that 
you had to spend your high 

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school years watching IU 
football from 1993 to 1996. 

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There were some very very good 
times but unfortunately there 

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were some difficult times as 
well for the end of a career of 

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what I feel is the best IU coach
to go through there and and Bill

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Mallory in the last 50 or so 
years and and a coach that I 

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just it's he's cut from a 
different cloth and I just don't

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think they make those types of 
coaches anymore from kind of the

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Woody Hayes coaching tree and 
yeah look forward to talking 

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more about him and and kind of 
those years as they are just 

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incredibly fond memories. 
Yeah, it was an interesting 

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time. 
I mean, I, my dad was an IU 

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football fan, an IU basketball 
fan. 

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Basketball always kind of made 
sense. 

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Yeah, the they were winning. 
They were winning championships 

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and, you know, competing for the
Big 10. 

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And it's, it's interesting 
because, you know, when I 

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started watching IU football in 
earnest, I was about, I don't 

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know, six years old, seven years
old. 

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And that was when the Mallory 
era was really starting to kick 

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off. 
And I can remember listening to 

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that All American Bowl game on 
the radio where they're, they're

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playing Florida State, 
obviously. 

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Remember the 87 and 88 seasons. 
You know, for you as a as a 

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football player, as a 
quarterback coming up, you know,

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as as you're playing high school
and thinking about where you're 

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going to college. 
Like, when did IU get on your 

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radar as a place that you might 
want to go to college? 

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And how did you end up coming to
Bloomington? 

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Well, so back then. 
The recruiting process started a

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lot later than it does now. 
You know, I think coaches and 

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potential athletes are being 
contacted 8th grade freshman 

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year, especially in basketball 
and softball and baseball and 

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some other sports. 
Football might be a little 

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later, but still, it's much 
earlier. 

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I wasn't really. 
I didn't really get recruited 

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until after my start, getting 
recruited until after my junior 

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season of high school and we had
a very successful high school 

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program out of Fort Wayne IN 
Bishop Wenger High School and we

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had just won A state 
championship and had just great 

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success and our team was really 
a running team more than 

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passing. 
But I was I had just some 

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numbers that that you can't 
really coach. 

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I was 6/6 and about 200 lbs. 
And then had a strong arm and 

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well was incredibly slow and and
I got some funny stories about 

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how slow I was as well at IU. 
But so started getting some 

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phone call letters more more so 
letters in the mail from pretty 

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much every big 10 school, some 
SCC schools. 

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And then there was a coach out 
at UCLA that somehow found out 

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about me and and really 
recruited me hard. 

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So throughout the recruiting 
process I narrowed it down to 

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five schools which were Indiana,
Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin 

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and UCLA and took my first 
official visit to UCLA. 

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And that really opened my eyes. 
My dad and I went out to LA I'd 

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never been there before. 
Really opened my eyes to kind of

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the recruiting process. 
And I don't know if you've seen 

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the movie, The program, but a 
lot of the scenes in that movie 

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are true. 
And those things do happen. 

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And I experienced some of those,
which back when I was 16 or 17 

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from a smaller town in Indiana, 
I saw some things that I've 

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never seen before. 
And while I loved it was Terry 

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Donahue was the coach at the 
time. 

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Obviously the campus at UCLA was
incredible. 

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Their pitch was, listen, don't 
look at it as your two thousand 

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1500 miles away. 
It's a four hour plane ride and 

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that's it. 
Well, at the end of the day that

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just really didn't sit too well 
with me because I was very close

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with my family and I had. 
I have an older sister who went 

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to IU, she's about four, she's 
six years older than me 

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actually, and I saw her 
experience. 

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That's when I first started 
going to Bloomington and going 

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to IU football games when she 
was a student at IU and and then

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back. 
That was back, You know, in my 

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senior year, high school 1991. 
That was the year Trent Green 

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had an incredible year. 
They beat Baylor in the Copper 

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Bowl. 
They won 24 to 0 and it really 

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came down for me to IU in 
Michigan. 

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Although I went to Wisconsin, 
Wisconsin was kind of on that 

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uptick with Barry Alvarez. 
Ohio State was always good, but 

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I did go to Ohio State on a 
visit and I was sitting at a 

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table prior to a football prior 
to a game. 

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And I was with my mom and dad 
and friend and Cooper, John 

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Cooper to our table and he 
started rubbing my best friends 

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from high school's shoulders. 
He's like, hey Chris, how's it 

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going, man, It's really, we're 
really excited to have you here.

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And I'm like, hey, sorry coach, 
I'm Chris. 

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And so that, you know, it was 
funny. 

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And my, my my buddy was like, 
hey, that's Chris across the 

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table and you know John Cooper, 
you know, he was a great coach, 

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but I don't think ever had 
struggle with Michigan didn't 

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really take off there. 
So they got rid of him. 

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And then Michigan had Elvis 
Gerbach, who was incredible, a 

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six foot five pocket passer. 
And then they had Todd Collins, 

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6 foot five pocket passer and 
their pitch was, you know you're

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going to be, you're going to 
watch Elvis Kerbach when you red

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shirt. 
Then you're going to sit behind 

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Todd Collins for two years as a 
freshman and sophomore and then 

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it's going to be your program. 
It's going to be your team as a 

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junior and senior. 
That was just how Michigan did 

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things and obviously that was a 
great pitch. 

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Cam Cameron was recruiting me 
there. 

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He was a quarterback coach at 
Michigan at the time and that 

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was it was it was really close 
to going to Michigan. 

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But at the end of the day, I was
raised in Indiana. 

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I wanted to stay loyal to the 
state of Indiana. 

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I love Bill Mallory. 
Bob Morris was the recruited me 

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out of Bloomington. 
He came up to Fort Wayne a 

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number of times And so it was 
just one of those things that 

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I've I've you know I've got to 
know Trent Green throughout the 

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recruiting process. 
He sold me on Indiana and on my 

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official visit had a great time 
as well and saw and did a lot of

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things that you know Bloomington
just became and still is part of

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really my heart and soul. 
I I love it. 

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My I met my wife there we were 
married in Bloomington and 

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unfortunately I have two of our 
kids have gone to IU. 

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So ended up there and enter. 
Enrolled this summer of 1992. 

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And that began a really, really 
up and down roller coaster. 

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Five years of a career. 
So you you start in 92 and that 

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year if I remember correctly 
that was there were there were 

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several years in the Mallory era
where it felt like the team was 

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like almost able to get over the
hump and not quite obviously. 

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I think the most famous one is 
the 89 season where the Anthony 

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Thompson probably should have 
won the Heisman. 

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They end up losing to Purdue in 
that last game. 

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They don't make a bowl that 92 
season. 

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I remember being a similar one 
in that, like there were some 

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successes clearly, but I think 
that team finished five and six.

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They lost at Purdue in the 
bucket game. 

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I was in the stands for that 
game. 

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I remember getting getting 
taunted by Purdue fans as I was 

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walking out of the stadium. 
So, which you know. 

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So it from your perspective as a
freshman, I mean what what was 

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it like coming in red shirting, 
you know, kind of seeing Bill 

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Mallory and his coaching staff 
in action, you know, right off 

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the bat and seeing a program 
that you know at that point had 

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been what to two bowl games in a
row. 

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And I'm guessing there was at 
least a decent amount of 

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confidence in the building about
what was going on with the 

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program. 
Right. 

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Well, there's a few things that 
really stick out in my mind from

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that first year and the first 
one being coming in as a true 

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freshman. 
And honestly thinking there is 

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no way I can go out there from 
just a mental standpoint and 

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physical for that matter and 
play quarterback at this level 

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right now. 
And just because there's so many

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things that that that are thrown
at you from reading defenses, 

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00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,760
from free reading the kind of 
the front seven and what they're

226
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,640
doing and then obviously the 
secondary and figuring out OK, 

227
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,800
what are they doing and the 
calls that you have to make as a

228
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,880
quarterback. 
And and so there was back then 

229
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,240
there was no question. 
I think there were about 25 guys

230
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,480
in our class and 23 of them red 
shirted and that was just how it

231
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,560
was. 
And if you didn't red shirt, it 

232
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:31,800
was because somebody got hurt. 
So you had to you had to fill in

233
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,320
whether it was on special teams.
And I think there were two guys 

234
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,920
in our recruiting class that 
didn't red shirt. 

235
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,760
And so they then would 
automatically become a part of 

236
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:46,280
that other class, because they 
would move up and only have 

237
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,040
three more years of eligibility 
the next year. 

238
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:55,160
But one one memory stuck in 
stuck in my mind was that team 

239
00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:01,160
played at Northwestern and a few
of us drove up to Evanston. 

240
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,840
We were red shirting, like let's
go up to the game, let's watch 

241
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,880
it, let's support the team. 
And they were very inviting. 

242
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,840
We were in the locker room 
before the game. 

243
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,480
We were on the sidelines. 
And then I vividly remember we 

244
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,560
won the game and the coaches and
the team, the relief that they 

245
00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:22,960
showed for winning a game on the
road in the Big 10 was I I could

246
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,040
just feel it in the locker room.
At the time. 

247
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,080
They were, they were, they were 
relieved. 

248
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,040
I felt like they were a little 
surprised. 

249
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,560
I just feel like at that at that
point I was like, man, the 

250
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,080
pressure to win at this level is
so great that they're so happy 

251
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:37,880
about beating Northwestern, who 
at that time was terrible. 

252
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,880
I mean was not was in 1992 and 
in the 80s. 

253
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,560
I think they were the losing 
this program in the country. 

254
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,880
So coming in I'm thinking you 
know this is we're Indiana, 

255
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,400
we're on we're we're we go to 
bowl games. 

256
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:56,880
We beat teams like Northwestern 
it's no problem and I was like 

257
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,720
wow this is incredible and and I
can I just started to see the 

258
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,760
pressure that one Trent Green 
was under. 

259
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,520
One that coach Floyd Keith, who 
was my quarterback coach of the 

260
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,960
time, was under just to win, 
just to win a game. 

261
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,960
And so that was, that's always, 
always stuck in my mind. 

262
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:20,760
And then the other one was my 
they that year, the Purdue game,

263
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,240
I was they they had me travel 
because they wanted me to 

264
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:26,440
experience the whole thing 
because I was going to be the 

265
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,240
backup quarterback to John Pacey
the following year. 

266
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,960
So they they said, Chris, we're 
going to bring you, we want you 

267
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,920
to just travel with the team and
go on the bus. 

268
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,880
You'll just go through 
everything and you'll dress, 

269
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,720
which I hadn't dressed on a road
game or traveled on a road game 

270
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,400
that entire year. 
But they wanted me to go through

271
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,040
that. 
So the next year, I was prepared

272
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,920
and knew kind of what to expect.
And that also opened my eyes to 

273
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,560
#1 what the Purdue rivalry was 
all about. 

274
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,120
And that was so important to 
coach Mallory and that entire 

275
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,800
coaching staff that literally 
stuck together for the most 

276
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,160
part. 90% of that coaching staff
stuck together for the 13 years 

277
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,240
that he was there, that Coach 
Mallory was there and the 

278
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,400
intensity of the bus ride up, 
the Friday night walkthrough, 

279
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,840
the Friday night meal, the film 
that we watched before we were 

280
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,400
went on, went to bed check the 
the next morning how quiet it 

281
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,040
was like. 
I mean the intent it was almost 

282
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,160
the quiet and the the just, the 
tenseness was almost like a 

283
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,760
really sad funeral. 
In what? 

284
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,440
In a way because people were 
just so locked in because we 

285
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,520
were playing Purdue. 
We were five and five and this 

286
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:38,880
was a shot at a bowl game and we
go through the game and we just 

287
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,680
we we the expectations of that 
season was probably a seven or 

288
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,600
eight win team, but there were a
lot of injuries and things going

289
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,720
on that that people really don't
know about. 

290
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,360
For example, we were down to our
third start, the third string 

291
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,640
starting center started the 
second-half of the season and 

292
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,240
when you're down to your third 
string center, you and you just 

293
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,280
have no chance. 
And this poor guy, his name was 

294
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,240
Josh DeWitt, great guy. 
I think he was probably 6, 

295
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,560
three, £250 at the time and had 
no chance. 

296
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,319
I mean, and he knew it, everyone
knew it and it you just kind of 

297
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,040
felt bad for him. 
But there really wasn't anyone 

298
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:21,119
there that could play. 
So that was a big part of the 

299
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,240
reason for the struggles. 
But anyway, we're we're driving 

300
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,079
at the end of that game and I 
don't know if you remember this,

301
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,840
but. 
I remember 100% goal line. 

302
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,080
Trent Green rolls out, throws a 
pass to his left, it gets 

303
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,200
intercepted, the guy runs back 
down the field. 

304
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,800
Green ends up getting a personal
foul for pulling the guy's face.

305
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,120
Remember it like it was 
yesterday? 

306
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,000
That's amazing. 
That is amazing. 

307
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,720
And and I'm standing there on 
the sidelines and I see Trent 

308
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,920
rolling to his left and I see 
the interception. 

309
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,240
The guy starts running out of 
the end zone. 

310
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,320
Trent has an angle on him, gets 
it probably to about the 40 yard

311
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,640
line, grabs his face mask, 
windmills him into the fence at 

312
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,520
Ross Ade Stadium and it was 
right in front of me and I'm 

313
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,720
just like, Oh my God, what is 
going on? 

314
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,840
Then the the entire Purdue 
defense is on top of Trent and 

315
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,880
there's a pretty good melee that
gets separated and I see Chris 

316
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,600
Zaganina, their big nose tackle,
start running in there and just 

317
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,360
tossing people left and right 
and I'm like, wow, what I'm 

318
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:26,040
thinking, this sucks. 
We just lost. 

319
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,720
But I'm also thinking this is 
incredible and I can't wait till

320
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,240
next season. 
And that next season was a 

321
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,800
fascinating one. 
You know, really kind of 

322
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,640
underrated as far as the 
greatest seasons in IU football 

323
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,120
history. 
You know, a season where Indiana

324
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:46,040
goes eight and three in the 
regular season, which I mean, 

325
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,040
anything above the seven win 
mark always feels like bonus 

326
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,720
territory historically for IU 
football. 

327
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,800
It was an interesting season, 
though for for a couple of 

328
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,200
reasons. 
I mean, a the we saw and you 

329
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,280
mentioned it earlier like 
Wisconsin kind of coming out of 

330
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,880
their shell. 
That was a game I went to 

331
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,200
actually as well as I remember 
it was a rainy day. 

332
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,200
Wisconsin comes in and pretty 
much handles Indiana in that 

333
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,440
game in Memorial Stadium and 
that was like the first time in 

334
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,160
forever that Wisconsin had been 
good and they would stay good 

335
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,320
essentially. 
Well, until now they still 

336
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,960
haven't really sunset that. 
But then there were two Rd. 

337
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,520
games, the game at Penn State 
and the game at Ohio State that 

338
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,240
were both really close games. 
Indiana was kind of shockingly 

339
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,640
in shockingly to the world. 
I guess in both games it just 

340
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,040
felt like, you know, that team 
could either play really good 

341
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,760
defense and and shut down 
opponents or or keep pace with 

342
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,520
some really good offenses in the
league throughout the course of 

343
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,000
the year. 
Yes. 

344
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:52,520
And that that team I think was 
molded into a quintessential 

345
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,480
Bill Mallory football team 
because we had, I I think that 

346
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,520
was the last best defense that 
Indiana has ever had and maybe 

347
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,480
arguably the best defense that 
they've ever had from the front 

348
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,080
four down lineman to your three 
or four linebackers into the 

349
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,160
second era. 
I think, I I think there were 

350
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,160
eight or nine guys off that 
defense that played significant 

351
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,040
time in the NFL. 
You know the entire defensive 

352
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,680
line did. 
There were a couple linebackers.

353
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,480
There were a couple guys in the 
secondary and. 

354
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,440
Well, yeah. 
Bernard Whittington played for 

355
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,400
the Colts. 
Damon Watts played for the 

356
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:27,880
Colts. 
Charles Beauchamp, I think 

357
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,920
played a bit in the league. 
Herb McCormick. 

358
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,920
Was all in the with the Cowboys 
for a while. 

359
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:40,720
Lance Brown was drafted by The 
Jets and then you had the world 

360
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,200
famous Chris Dyer which I I know
you're familiar with him and the

361
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,560
and and and what he said in the 
1993 season. 

362
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,640
Absolutely. 
And I can't imagine what it 

363
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,160
would be like if he said that 
this day and age and we can get 

364
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,720
that and we can get to that. 
But that that defense. 

365
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:04,000
So our defense was incredible 
and we had a special teams that 

366
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,640
were just incredibly 
disciplined. 

367
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,080
And it's weird to say, but we 
had two punters at the time. 

368
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,280
We had a punter that could just 
absolutely kick it 60 or 70 

369
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,400
yards in the air. 
And then we had a punter that 

370
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,200
was a really expert pinning the 
ball inside the tent. 

371
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,360
So we had two punter 
specialists, which was pretty 

372
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:25,760
rare. 
And offensively, John was 

373
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,680
starting for the first time, 
really athletic, really smart. 

374
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,160
And we had a running game 
running back by committee at 

375
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,880
that on and that year we had 
Thomas Lewis, a receiver who was

376
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,720
a first round pick that no one 
really knew about at the 

377
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,720
beginning of the season. 
But then he had the Penn State 

378
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,360
game where I think he had over 
250 yards receiving. 

379
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:50,680
He had a 99 yard touchdown 
reception. 

380
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,320
I guess the Penn State team that
was absolutely loaded and John 

381
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,560
Pasty had an incredible game 
that game that that day. 

382
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,840
But that was John actually 
separated his shoulder that game

383
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,960
and that was when I got my first
start at Ohio State the 

384
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,720
following week, which was also 
an an incredible experience. 

385
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,920
But that team, you know the 
Wisconsin game that you 

386
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,040
mentioned it was, it was a 
horrible day. 

387
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:22,160
We jumped out to a lead and we 
had some momentum and then we 

388
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,720
turned up and we had a few 
fumbles that just killed us. 

389
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,680
But the ironic part is Wisconsin
did end up going to the Rose 

390
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,840
Bowl that year in 1993. 
And the other thing that just 

391
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,120
kills me that I I don't wouldn't
say I think about it every day, 

392
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,720
but I think about it a lot. 
The five schools that were, you 

393
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,000
know, kind of in my final five 
Wisconsin, Ohio State, Michigan,

394
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:51,600
UCLA, they all four went to the 
Rose Bowl in my five years at 

395
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,760
Indiana. 
And back then, if you're a kid 

396
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,960
that's growing up in the Midwest
and you play in the Big 10, all 

397
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,080
you dream about is playing in 
the Rose Bowl. 

398
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,680
That's the only thing that 
mattered if you have an 

399
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,360
opportunity to play Big 10 
football. 

400
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,280
And yeah, so maybe I do think 
about it every day, in fact, 

401
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,760
before schools. 
Seems like it came back pretty 

402
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:14,840
quickly. 
Absolutely. 

403
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,160
I I remember you, you know, 
starting in that Ohio State game

404
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,440
because it was obviously pacey 
at that point and kind of 

405
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,240
established himself as the guy. 
And it's like well OK we have 

406
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,040
this this young quarterback 
coming in, red shirt freshman 

407
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,400
who's like not really been in 
this spot before. 

408
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,880
I mean in Ohio Stadium and this 
was granted it was pre expansion

409
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,880
Ohio Stadium, but there's still 
like a 90,000 seat stadium. 

410
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,320
Ohio State's I think 5th in the 
country at the time. 

411
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,160
Like what it what is that like 
for you as I'm guessing like a 

412
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,480
19 year old or 20 year old in 
that environment? 

413
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,920
I mean, what is just, how does 
how does that register with you 

414
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,160
emotionally and mentally? 
Well, it was, it was. 

415
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:59,360
It was a a big week to say the 
least and my my mom and dad 

416
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:02,960
actually grew up in Columbus OH 
and they both went to Ohio State

417
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,920
to at that time I had relatives 
that have my uncle had a season 

418
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,400
tickets to Ohio State. 
I grew up going to the shoe and 

419
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,560
going to Ohio State games my 
entire childhood and actually 

420
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,920
was a big Ohio State fan during 
the days of Earl Bruce, which 

421
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,160
you know, they were, they're 
Ohio State. 

422
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,960
They were. 
It's just a great program 

423
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,880
tradition upon a tradition. 
And so for me to have my first 

424
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:36,440
start at Ohio State, you know, I
again more vivid memories of I 

425
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,520
knew John was hurt. 
I didn't know how serious it 

426
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,480
was. 
And I remember coming into 

427
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,240
practice on that Monday and 
coach Mallory and coach Lynch. 

428
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,200
Bill Lynch was the quarterback 
coach at the time, called me in 

429
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,040
the office and they said hey 
Chris, just want you to know 

430
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,080
John's shoulder is not able. 
He's not going. 

431
00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,800
You are starting this week and I
think I became as white as a 

432
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:06,040
ghost and and what was became 
hot started hyperventilating 

433
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,040
because we were having a great 
year. 

434
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,960
I mean we were seven and two at 
the time ranked around 16th or 

435
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,040
17th in the country, which I 
tell people, I tell people that 

436
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,280
now and they're like what you 
guys were ranked 16th in the 

437
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,080
country. 
I'm like, yeah, I know it's hard

438
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,320
to believe, but we actually were
and and here the reasons are 

439
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,600
mainly because of our defense 
and we were really really 

440
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,400
competitive and we almost and 
then all of these different 

441
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,040
things that happened but tried 
to prepare. 

442
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,520
I had to prepare as a starter 
and I hadn't completed a pass of

443
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,160
my career. 
I think it was over 2 on the 

444
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,520
year and literally getting 
thrown into the wolves but had a

445
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,960
great week of practice. 
Coach Lynch who really was a 

446
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,560
huge impact on my career at IU 
even though he was only there 

447
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,240
for two years. 
I and I actually had four 

448
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,040
quarterback coaches in my five 
years there which was also just 

449
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,960
challenging because they all had
different personalities. 

450
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:12,840
But, and I you know I coach 
Lynch was and I still think it's

451
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,000
a shame what happened to him in 
Indiana when he became the head 

452
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,960
coach that was you know that 
that was a whole nother podcast 

453
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,120
probably. 
But he I just have so much 

454
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:27,120
respect for him and the ability 
that he has to coach up 

455
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,000
quarterbacks and and simplify 
things And that's what he did 

456
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,880
for me. 
Although I did go out and 

457
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,840
started that game oh for seven 
oh for my first seven. 

458
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,440
But our defense just kept us in 
the game. 

459
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,600
Our special teams just kept us 
in the game. 

460
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,880
Ended up being able to connect 
with Thomas Lewis on a touchdown

461
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,760
and Jermaine Cheney was able to 
break off a couple of runs and 

462
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,360
we actually got the ball back 
with 2 1/2 minutes left down 23 

463
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:56,640
to 17 with an opportunity to win
the game. 

464
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:03,280
Every kids freaking dream and 
all that we had on 1st down on 

465
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,320
that drive. 
Thomas Lewis had been really 

466
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:12,560
hurting them on post corners and
going to the corner and we hit a

467
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,800
couple of those. 
Well he ran a a corner post and 

468
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,400
he was wide open and I pat I 
just held on the ball about a 

469
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,920
split second too late allowed 
the backside safe to come and 

470
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,440
knock it down and that was our 
opportunity but it was that was 

471
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,240
an incredible experience one 
that I will I will never forget 

472
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,400
and it won. 
It was one that yeah playing in 

473
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,320
the at Ohio State is is in my 
opinion is that is the while 

474
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:46,040
their fans are complete 
blowhards they they have a right

475
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,600
to be. 
I mean they're good and they've 

476
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,240
been good. 
I hate to compare our Indiana 

477
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,000
basketball fans to Ohio State 
basketball fans but I see some 

478
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,080
similarity there similarities 
there and it was an incredible 

479
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,920
experience and John came back 
the next week and started 

480
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,960
against Purdue but couldn't 
finish the game and I came in, I

481
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,400
think about the middle of the 
second quarter and didn't do 

482
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,480
anything too spectacular but 
hand the ball off a bunch 

483
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,320
completed a couple passes and 
and we ended up winning that 

484
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,800
game which was which was you 
know which was incredible and 

485
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,080
which which what is weird even 
though we finished eight and 

486
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,760
three there was we were still 
worried about are we going to 

487
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,880
get invited to a bowl game. 
Yeah, this was it, was how it 

488
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,840
was back. 
Then it was an interesting time 

489
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,360
and and this would manifest the 
following year when he finished 

490
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:35,400
six and five and didn't get 
invited to a bowl game. 

491
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,440
But yeah, there weren't as many 
bowl games at the time. 

492
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:44,840
And it was interesting because 
now IU doesn't seem to have the 

493
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,560
problem of the perception of 
fans won't travel for bowl games

494
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,840
and and there's so many now it 
doesn't necessarily matter that 

495
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,320
much. 
But at the time I remember this 

496
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,160
being something mentioned a lot 
that, you know, there were bowl 

497
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,040
representatives who didn't think
IU fans would come and see them 

498
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,880
in bowls. 
And so they would opt for other 

499
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,480
programs that were more likely 
to go, whether it was like a 

500
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,760
Michigan State or an Iowa or 
whatever. 

501
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,040
But yeah, even at 8:00 and 3:00,
like you'd think, oh, shoo, in 

502
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,480
that's that's like minimum, like
Gator Bowl or or Outback Bowl. 

503
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,800
Now instead you end up in the 
Independence Bowl, which isn't 

504
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,520
really a premier bowl by any 
stretch of the imagination. 

505
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:26,640
And that ends up being, I've 
always thought of that game as 

506
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,800
kind of the unfortunate, like, 
turning point that Indiana 

507
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,200
football never came back from 
going into the halftime. 

508
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,560
It's a close game. 
You're, you know, it's a 

509
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,880
Virginia Tech team that's kind 
of much like Wisconsin having 

510
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,920
their first really good season 
under Frank Beamer. 

511
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,400
And then as I know you remember,
the bottom just absolutely falls

512
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,280
out in the last minute of the 
first half. 

513
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,480
Right. 
Yeah, we were. 

514
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,240
We were winning. 
I mean, we were up I think 14 to

515
00:29:54,240 --> 00:30:03,640
13 and we had a, I think a punt 
blocked or field goal blocked. 

516
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,600
Field goal. 
For touchdowns and and yeah, I I

517
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,440
I've thought about that exactly 
the way you thought about it as 

518
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,800
well because Virginia Tech took 
off and has been competitive. 

519
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,480
Maybe not so much in the last 
four or five years, but we all 

520
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,480
know the years that they have 
with Michael Vick and the 

521
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,800
success that they had with Frank
Beamer and and and I often 

522
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,040
think, man, that was that game 
kind of, yeah, a tipping point 

523
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:35,200
for the program. 
And I mean, Virginia Tech had a 

524
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,720
quarterback by the name of Jim 
Druckenmiller. 

525
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:38,600
I don't know if you remember 
that. 

526
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:39,320
Oh yeah. 
But. 

527
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,640
But it would play with the 49ers
for a little bit. 

528
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,000
He was a first round pick. 
I mean the guy was a bum. 

529
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,080
He was my age and that's why I 
have a little bit of, I guess, 

530
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,160
angst towards him because I felt
like I was more talented than 

531
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,040
him that, but he just, he got a 
lot more exposure. 

532
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,640
He won a lot more games. 
He was a first round pick. 

533
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,120
I mean the draft, the draft 
class. 

534
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,040
My year was so bad that Jim 
Druckenmiller was a first round 

535
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,200
pick and I think he may have 
been one of the only 

536
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,520
quarterbacks drafted that year. 
But yes, then you know, you take

537
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:19,760
that momentum in from that game 
into the 94 summer and then then

538
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,920
the fall of 94, there were just 
another set of circumstances 

539
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,720
that happened and roller coaster
of the season. 

540
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,280
And that's really where John 
Pacey and I began. 

541
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,480
And I I hate to call it a 
rivalry, but he was a pretty 

542
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,760
well, this is an understanding. 
He was a pretty under, pretty 

543
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,440
competitive guy and I would just
say not the most friendly guy 

544
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:47,880
when you get into a quarterback 
room with him and I think that 

545
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,320
just goes back to, you know, 
his, his kind of his East Coast 

546
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:52,560
personality. 
Right. 

547
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,000
Well, and that that whole period
was interesting because there 

548
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,400
was kind of this open question 
about who is the starting 

549
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,120
quarterback going into this 
season. 

550
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,120
And it was confusing for fans 
because, I mean, and then this 

551
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,040
is at a time when there's not a 
lot of coverage. 

552
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,400
You know, we you'd get the The 
Bill Mallory Show on, you know, 

553
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,800
whatever Saturdays or Sundays, 
you'd occasionally get an 

554
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,200
article written. 
But pretty much when Don 

555
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,560
Fisher's pregame would start up,
you know, before whatever game 

556
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,680
was happening that week, that's 
when you found out what was 

557
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,200
happening and who was going to 
play. 

558
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,120
And so we missed a lot of the, I
guess the nuance or the back 

559
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,600
stories as far as what was 
actually going on behind the 

560
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,680
scenes with that season. 
Yeah, and that that was, You 

561
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:39,280
know, the weird part, too, was 
spring practice of 94. 

562
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,440
I was the only healthy 
quarterback, literally. 

563
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,280
John Pacey has shoulder surgery 
and Aaron Greenlee, who was the 

564
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,560
3rd quarterback at I'm sorry, 
Adam Greenlee, who was the 3rd 

565
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,360
quarterback at the time, also 
had shoulder surgery. 

566
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:01,520
So I took all all the reps. 
I played all when the spring 

567
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,280
game came along and coach 
Mallory loved the spring game. 

568
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,840
He loved it to be competitive. 
He there was a draft and and it 

569
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,400
was a big deal. 
The winners ate steak and 

570
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,440
lobster and the losers ate beans
and weenies and it was a you 

571
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,200
know you sat, you sat in the 
same room and you the winners 

572
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,080
would come in you'd wear a coat 
and tie if you were if you were 

573
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,000
on the winning team and eating 
the steak and lobster and they 

574
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,680
put the losing team like off to 
in a corner with paper plates 

575
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,720
and paper napkins and plastic 
forks and so. 

576
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,440
But I I had to play on both 
teams. 

577
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,000
I would literally switch teams 
on the from the cream or Crimson

578
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,680
during that particular spring. 
So going into that fall season, 

579
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,840
John was coming back and it was 
his team, you know, and he would

580
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,080
go and talk to Bob Hamel. 
I'll talk to anybody. 

581
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,640
And he was very adamant about 
this is my team, this is my 

582
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,600
team. 
There's no competition here. 

583
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,760
You know, I, you know, Chris and
I are getting along great, but 

584
00:33:58,760 --> 00:33:59,880
I'm the guy. 
I'm the man. 

585
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,040
He would literally say all of 
that in the media, which if that

586
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,560
kind of stuff went on now it 
would be a lot more significant.

587
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,120
Back then you did, it probably 
wasn't as noticeable, but when 

588
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,560
there the articles did come out,
John tried to make it very clear

589
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,960
that he was the guy. 
And what what, what John and I 

590
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,960
were hearing from Coach Mallory 
was, hey, we're going to do a 

591
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,920
rotational system. 
We're going to rotate both of 

592
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,719
you. 
John does some good things. 

593
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,199
Chris does some good things. 
So we're going to rotate you 

594
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,120
guys. 
Well, that did not sit well with

595
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,520
John at all. 
He was, I think in Coach 

596
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,679
Mallory's office daily, if 
definitely weekly, if not daily.

597
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,840
And I was just kind of like I 
got 2-3 more years of this John,

598
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,920
I'm going to do whatever I can 
to help you, whatever I can do 

599
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,840
to help the team. 
That was just my personality. 

600
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,679
I just, you know, I I I wasn't 
really a confrontational guy. 

601
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,040
Of course I wanted to play and I
was just like, if I'm going to 

602
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,560
get, if I'm given the 
opportunity, I'm going to do 

603
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,920
best I can and if and if it's if
it's good enough, then I'm going

604
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,960
to play. 
If it's not, then John will 

605
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,360
play. 
And he kind of went back and 

606
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,440
forth like that until the Penn 
State game. 

607
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,480
And that was really the turning 
point for me that season in my 

608
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,600
in my career overall. 
The Penn State game. 

609
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,560
It's the infamous Penn State 
game. 

610
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,400
You know, this is so to set the 
scene for those who haven't been

611
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,160
following IU football for this 
long. 

612
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,400
For 30 plus years, right? 
It's only Galen and me, I think.

613
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,920
I think at this point I think 
we'll throw Scott in as well. 

614
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,080
He remembers this game too, but 
now this is a game in early 

615
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,480
November. 
Penn State is the number two 

616
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,240
team in the country. 
They've just joined the Big 10 

617
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:40,520
there. 
The previous year I think was 

618
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,680
their first full year. 
Maybe it was two years earlier, 

619
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,520
but they come in and it's 
expected to be a bloodbath. 

620
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,600
Penn State's expected to run 
away with it, and you guys 

621
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,640
played them on national 
television about as close as 

622
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,800
anybody could have expected it. 
And it was one of those games 

623
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,840
where it felt like Penn State 
was probably going to win. 

624
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,240
But every time they took a lead 
that was substantial, there'd be

625
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:11,120
a touchdown pass from you or 
there'd be a big play from IU. 

626
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,160
It ends up being a six point 
loss to Penn State, but that is 

627
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,520
still pointed to is the reason 
why Penn State doesn't win the 

628
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,920
national championship that year.
So I mean, talk us through how 

629
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:26,400
that whole thing went. 
So that it's, it's funny and I 

630
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,080
still if I'm it's this is crazy.
If I'm anywhere in the country 

631
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,600
and I come across a Penn State 
football fan, though, they are, 

632
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:42,560
their fans are as crazy as any 
fans as there are in the 

633
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,080
country. 
And they know the history of 

634
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,040
Penn State football and they 
know the history of 1994. 

635
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,480
And then they remember who was 
the quarterback for Indiana that

636
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,440
where this happened. 
And so as you mentioned, Penn 

637
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,600
State, I actually think they're 
ranked #1. 

638
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,680
In the country. 
And they had Kerry Collins 

639
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,640
Kajana Carter Kyle Brady all 
they all three that next spring 

640
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,000
went in the top 12 picks of the 
NFL draft. 

641
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:15,160
They ended up going 12 and well,
so we play the game, John is 

642
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,560
struggling a bit. 
They pull him and they put me in

643
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,560
about the middle of the second 
quarter and and I just start out

644
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,200
really, really hot. 
Drive the team down, throw a 

645
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,880
touchdown pass we go up 7. 
Nothing Memorial. 

646
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:35,000
Our defense is also playing 
incredibly well against this the

647
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,200
high-powered offense, probably 
the best offense in the country 

648
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,960
in 1994 Memorial Stadium. 
I think I'd probably get sold 

649
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,280
out and by and I and I don't. 
I want to. 

650
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,440
I don't want to say it's 50,000.
It was about. 

651
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,000
It was. 
Close. 

652
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:54,680
It was about 47,000, yeah. 
So it felt full and and to me 

653
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,640
and you know that game and I'm 
sure you remember this the 

654
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,920
Cincinnati game three years ago 
when we have the lead against 

655
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,080
Cincinnati and it's a noon 
kickoff game and it's about 80° 

656
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,000
and that game is sold out. 
I I just, I just for me when it 

657
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,480
comes to just the overall 
thought process on Indiana 

658
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,400
football and well fans don't 
support well. 

659
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,320
I I don't believe that if you 
put a winning team out there 

660
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,680
that stadium will sell out game 
in and game out and I think it 

661
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,760
was proven that Cincinnati game 
and that's a whole another 

662
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,880
podcast and why I forget the 
linebacker's name. 

663
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,560
But when he got thrown out my 
God that was that was sad but so

664
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,960
I I was I was put in the the 
Penn State game ended up we 

665
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,920
ended up being very very 
competitive. 

666
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:50,080
And what made it so close was we
were we were down I think 35 to 

667
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:56,440
21 and we threw a Hail Mary and 
we completed it and we went for 

668
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,880
two and there was no time left 
when we went for two and coach 

669
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,400
Mallory had us go for two and 
the final score ended up being 

670
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:08,680
35 to 29 where you know lowly 
Indiana takes #1 ranked Penn 

671
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,640
State that's 35 to 29 And then 
and if you're in the national 

672
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,240
media if you're just a fan you 
see that score you're like wow 

673
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,760
maybe Penn State isn't that 
good. 

674
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,240
Back then there weren't there 
wasn't as much coverage as there

675
00:39:20,240 --> 00:39:25,600
is obviously now. 
And it that close game literally

676
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,720
dropped Penn State from #1 and 
Nebraska went to #1 and Penn 

677
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:32,480
State went to #2. 
And they remained there for the 

678
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,640
rest of year because Nebraska 
finished the year 12 and O. 

679
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,560
Penn State finished year 12 and 
O. 

680
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,360
But Nebraska was named national 
champion and Penn State was #2. 

681
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,400
So they do blame that game and 
the fact that we had we were 

682
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,240
kind of phantom Lee close to 
them with that Hail Mary. 

683
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,080
They blame it on that. 
So it was, it was, it was funny 

684
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,880
but and at the end of the day, 
it was still, you know, we were 

685
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,560
sitting in the locker room like 
damn, you know, feel. 

686
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,840
It feels like a win. 
It feels like we won. 

687
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,120
The crowd made it feel like we 
won, but we still lost. 

688
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,200
There's there's just something 
kind of wrong with that. 

689
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,840
You know what I mean? 
It's just like what the 

690
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,200
expectation obviously is to win.
And maybe that was a moral 

691
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,040
victory for us back then. 
And it did give us momentum and 

692
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,600
then we and then I was named the
starter that Monday. 

693
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,440
Coach Mallard came out and said 
OK. 

694
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,280
Chris is the starter. 
John Pacey not happy. 

695
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,520
Not happy at all. 
And let it be known not only in 

696
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,120
the locker room, but to Bob 
Hamill and to kind of anyone 

697
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,400
that he could. 
And it it's it's it was it's 

698
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:47,680
just it's really too bad because
ironically, Trent Green was 

699
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,000
benched for John Pacey late in 
his senior year. 

700
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,800
John Pacey was benched for me 
late in his senior year and we 

701
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,520
can get into it in the 96th 
season. 

702
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,960
What happened to me? 
But that was that was that when 

703
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,920
we went and played Ohio State, 
they came in just absolutely 

704
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,720
loaded again. 
We hung with them for probably 

705
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:12,960
3/4. 
I had a decent game and we, but 

706
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,960
we ended up losing by a couple 
touchdowns and I actually had a 

707
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:22,360
I hurt my MCL, had a like a 
second degree sprain in my MCL. 

708
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,040
And then John came back and 
started the Purdue game, which 

709
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:30,560
we won thankfully, and I I was 
obviously very, very happy for 

710
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,920
him and he was able to go out 
and win, but we went six to 

711
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,560
five, no bowl game. 
Yeah, and and then things got 

712
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,840
pretty dark from there program 
wise so. 

713
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,760
We have to talk about 9596. 
We don't have to, although I do.

714
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,400
I do have a kind of an 
overarching question on that, 

715
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,880
which is I mean it was, it was 
jarring how quickly things fell 

716
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,680
off in the last two years of of 
Bill Mallory's reign and you 

717
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,320
know the 95. 
Tom Allen, I mean, kind of 

718
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,880
similar to Tom Allen, which 
strangely it just was. 

719
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:12,280
Yeah, I mean you know two and 
nine in in the in the 1995 

720
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:13,720
season. 
Oh, and eight in the conference.

721
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:18,560
And really I mean you go back 
and look and not only were 

722
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,440
basically none of the losses 
that competitive, you know maybe

723
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:27,240
the Illinois game at home, but 
even the wins were were tight 

724
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:29,080
like they were the game against 
Southern Miss. 

725
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,520
That was only a one point 
victory and you know a 14 point 

726
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,000
win over Western Michigan like 
it. 

727
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,080
So I'm I'm really curious to get
your thoughts and and 

728
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,240
reflections on this, like what 
was it about the team that kind 

729
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,920
of changed there between that 94
and 95 seasons? 

730
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,920
Well, I I think you know if you 
look at kind of as a whole the 

731
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:55,440
two, if you take the 93 and 94 
combined years and then you take

732
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,600
the 95 and 96 combined years, I 
don't think those, you know the 

733
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,920
959394 teams had NFL guys, they 
had guys that had careers in the

734
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,880
NFL 9596, I don't, I don't think
we had one. 

735
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,680
I don't think there was a single
one. 

736
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,720
Eric Smedley was the only one, 
and he was a seventh round draft

737
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:17,400
pick. 
Right, right. 

738
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,080
And you know, Eric Allen was a 
good player, played a little 

739
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,040
bit. 
Eric Matthews was a wide 

740
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,880
receiver that played a little 
bit. 

741
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:31,200
I hung on a little bit but there
was no significant career in the

742
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,080
NFL out of those two years. 
I think that was part of it. 

743
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:40,200
I think you know I I just I I 
can't blame injuries. 

744
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,720
I honestly I I just think we had
a you know there are a couple. 

745
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:46,880
There's one. 
There's one thing that I that I 

746
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:52,200
will that I will mention that is
is really hard to to say because

747
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,240
the the amount of love and 
respect that I have for Bill 

748
00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:59,800
Mallory is immense. 
And anybody that played for him 

749
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,240
for four years or five years you
know he he wasn't Bob Knight. 

750
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,040
He wasn't that you know hard of 
a personality to get along with.

751
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,800
But they were, they were very 
similar in that they were old 

752
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:17,680
school and they were very much 
expected you to go to class, to 

753
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,640
do things the right way, to 
dress nicely, to take your hat 

754
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,320
off when you're in a room, to 
look you in the eye when you 

755
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,240
shake someone's hand. 
There were these were things 

756
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:36,560
that coach Mallory preached to 
you and and obviously anyone 

757
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,280
that goes through four or five 
years of a college football 

758
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,200
career has their ups and downs 
with any of the coaches. 

759
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,720
They're not there to be your 
friend. 

760
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:48,360
And I had my ups and downs with 
coach Mallory, but at the end of

761
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,560
the day, man, I wish he was 
still around because I would 

762
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:53,760
love to still have conversations
with him. 

763
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,760
And I had conversations with him
up until the the months that he 

764
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:05,480
passed. 
But I wish in 1993 or 9. 

765
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,840
I'm sorry, 94. 
When Bill Lynch was offered the 

766
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:16,480
head coaching job at Ball State,
Coach Mallory would have said we

767
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,960
want you to be the offensive 
coordinator and I'm only going 

768
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,520
to be here for another two or 
three years and we want you to 

769
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,280
be the head coach. 
I wish that would have maybe 

770
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,720
been some sort of succession 
plan because we had George 

771
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:29,200
Belew, who was the offensive 
coordinator, Great guy. 

772
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:36,280
But really if we ran or if we 
passed, Coach Mallory was really

773
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,400
making that decision. 
There were times where when I 

774
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,800
wasn't playing and I was, you 
know, on the sidelines and John 

775
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,680
was playing and Coach Blue would
call a pass play and he called 

776
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,040
in to John and Coach Brown would
say no, no, run it, run it. 

777
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:53,840
We got. 
We're going to run it twice 

778
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,960
here, run it, we're going to run
it here, We're going to, we'll 

779
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,200
run the ball here. 
So there'll be times where Coach

780
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:00,920
Blue would want to throw it and 
Coach Mallory would overrule it.

781
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,840
There was also a time in the 
Southern, in the Southern 

782
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:11,120
Mississippi game, we came out 
first drive of the game, we go 

783
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,400
down and score. 
I called a couple different 

784
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,600
audibles where I call a a play 
from a run to a pass. 

785
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,400
We go down. 
It is was it was a long drive. 

786
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,080
It was a combination. 
It was probably six runs and six

787
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,680
passes. 
I mean the passes were five or 

788
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,480
six yards. 
I wasn't throwing it down the 

789
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,320
field. 
It was just so we had a look 

790
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,760
where they might have had eight 
guys in the box and I knew we 

791
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,960
can't run into this because we 
only have six blockers, maybe 7 

792
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,080
blockers. 
Well, I went to the sideline and

793
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,480
I'm thinking, man, this is a 
great drive. 

794
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,120
We're up 7. 
Nothing start off the game. 

795
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:40,960
This is awesome. 
Awesome. 

796
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,800
Coach Mallard comes over to me 
and he's like, why are you 

797
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,560
checking out those plays? 
I'm like, well, because we we 

798
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,760
can't block them, Coach, they 
got too many guys in there. 

799
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,480
He's like, no, no, we got 7 guys
to block their eight. 

800
00:46:53,720 --> 00:47:00,360
Alex has to make one guy miss 
and I'm like, so we have to have

801
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,000
seven perfect blocks. 
Allen gets Alex Smith, gets 

802
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:09,120
through the hole and then he's 
got to make a safety miss. 

803
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,360
That's what he was thinking and 
and that that was just his 

804
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,160
mentality. 
He thought we're going to line 

805
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,760
up, we're going to be tougher 
than they are and we're going to

806
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,520
get 3 or 4 yards at least every 
carry because we're tougher than

807
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,280
they are. 
And and I think that caught up 

808
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:29,160
to us a lot there in 95 and 96. 
We just we did not have the 

809
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,720
manpower to continue on with 
that type of offense. 

810
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:36,040
We were not overpowering any 
defense at that time. 

811
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:42,520
Alex Smith was getting 
absolutely run to death and he, 

812
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,520
Alex and I had many, you know, 
had many conversations about how

813
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:46,880
many carries he would have in a 
game. 

814
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,080
And he set an NCAA record 
against Michigan State. 

815
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,400
He had 23 carries in the first 
quarter against Michigan State, 

816
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,000
which is insane. 
You know, running backs don't 

817
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,920
get 23 carries in games anymore.
You know, they they're lucky to 

818
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,360
get in the high teens. 
So the philosophy of our offense

819
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:06,920
I think caught up to us a little
bit. 

820
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,040
We were trying to be a, you 
know, a full back tight end to 

821
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,680
receiver offense and a lot of 
play action. 

822
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,360
A lot of just hey here here's 
what we're going to do. 

823
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,640
You know what we're doing, we 
know what we're doing and we're 

824
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:27,000
just going to out execute you. 
And you know that combined with 

825
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,680
the lack of really really high 
level players the guys that are 

826
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:36,400
you know, future NFL guys was it
was a combination and and two 

827
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:42,520
and nine was was tough, 
particularly because Alex and I 

828
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,800
were put on a freaking poster 
and I don't know if you have 

829
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:50,120
seen that lately or remember 
that, but it was horrible and it

830
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,280
was us standing over Memorial 
Stadium and I think it says 

831
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,920
something like rock the house 
and even my own son was like 

832
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:58,160
that. 
I don't want that in my room. 

833
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,120
What are you doing? 
Get this get this thing out of 

834
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:01,080
here. 
I. 

835
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:03,400
Think it's in buffaloes right 
now, but I'm not. 

836
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,280
It might be, It might be, yeah, 
hopefully not. 

837
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,160
But it might be in. 
And so I I vividly remember also

838
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,400
after the 95 season, going into 
96, he's like, we don't want any

839
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,800
more bullshit. 
We don't want any more posters 

840
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,080
of anyone. 
We just want to be, you know, 

841
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,920
we're not air Ditto and running 
Alex Smith. 

842
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,480
We're none of this stuff. 
And and so going into the 96 

843
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,120
season, a real horrible turning 
point was, you know, we were 

844
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,600
confident going into that year. 
We felt good. 

845
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,800
We, our defense was really, 
really good that year. 

846
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,200
Offensively, we weren't. 
We were we were absolutely 

847
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,960
terrible. 
And we just. 

848
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,200
I'm trying to think we played 
that first game in 1990. 

849
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:51,920
Oh, we were at. 
Toledo We. 

850
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,200
Were at Toledo, which was weird 
for a big 10 school to play at 

851
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,680
Toledo, but that it was actually
a great environment. 

852
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:00,520
It sold out. 
They loved having us there, 

853
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,400
obviously, and we went in out, 
we went in there and punched 

854
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,600
them right in the mouth. 
And that was kind of the 

855
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,720
beginning of. 
I knew they were questioning me 

856
00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:13,600
as the starter because I was on 
to my 4th quarterback coach, Kit

857
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,760
Cartwright. 
I remember going to the sideline

858
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,960
during the Toledo game, getting 
on the phone, talking to him and

859
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,200
him just reaming me for no 
particular reason, threatening. 

860
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,160
We're going to put Jay Rogers, 
We're going to put Jay in. 

861
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,240
If you don't, you're going to 
put Jay in. 

862
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:30,560
And I'm just like whatever, 
dude. 

863
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,320
I mean, I'm a fifth year guy. 
I'm. 

864
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,920
I really, I want to do 
everything I can to help us win 

865
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,000
games. 
I'm. 

866
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,160
I'm big. 
Like I'm 6/6 at this time. 

867
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,840
I'm probably 6/6 2:35. 
And I I can do one thing. 

868
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:45,640
I can drop back and I can throw 
the ball. 

869
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,000
I'm not going to outrun anybody.
In fact, I'm sure you remember 

870
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,800
Bill Banner. 
He coined one of the funniest 

871
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,320
phrases that in one of his 
articles that has stuck with me 

872
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,440
today. 
And every time I see Mr. Banner,

873
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,880
he apologizes to me, but it's 
pretty gosh darn hilarious. 

874
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:08,720
And it was Chris Ditto could not
escape the pass rush of an ice 

875
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:12,360
glacier. 
And then he called me slow as an

876
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,360
ice Flo Ditto, which is. 
I mean, think about that. 

877
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,200
This is the. 
This is the Indy star, by the 

878
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:22,840
way, folks. 
This is not like, this is not 

879
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:24,440
Twitter that we're talking 
about. 

880
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,920
Yeah. 
This was this was written in The

881
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:30,880
Indianapolis Star. 
But anyway back you know 96. 

882
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,680
We the turning point was when we
went to Kentucky and it was only

883
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:39,360
our third game of the season, 
but we went to Kentucky and it 

884
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:45,080
literally poured down rain that 
entire day and that entire 

885
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,080
night. 
And playing against Kentucky 

886
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,320
actually was one of the 
highlights of the of the 

887
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,120
schedule, Kentucky and Purdue. 
And back then that was when we 

888
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,200
played Kentucky every year. 
And that was a huge game for 

889
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,040
Coach Mallory and it was a great
rivalry and I wish we would 

890
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,440
somehow bring that back. 
Not, you know obviously in 

891
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,680
basketball, but in football that
was a great rivalry for a non 

892
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,000
conference power five game. 
Indiana's actually got a winning

893
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,760
record in that rivalry. 
It's like really, it's like, I 

894
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,320
think it's a one game lead 
against Kentucky. 

895
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:20,880
Yeah, so. 
That's great. 

896
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:22,720
So let's let's. 
Not start it up again, Chris. 

897
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:24,120
We got to leave it. 
Yeah, exactly. 

898
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,440
Let's leave that what the way it
is for sure. 

899
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,320
So that the 96 season, I mean 
there's there's two things that 

900
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,720
stick out that I can remember. 
One of them of course is Bill 

901
00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:37,920
Mallory getting fired in the 
middle of the year but still 

902
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,200
coaching the remaining games of 
the season. 

903
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,640
And there was that awful press 
conference with him in tears. 

904
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:48,120
I mean that I, I recall this 
being I think late October may 

905
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:52,600
have been, might have been after
the Michigan game, but I mean it

906
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,000
clearly, I mean from what you're
saying, I mean clearly kind of 

907
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,920
the momentum of the program had 
gone and and recruiting, you 

908
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,360
know, wasn't getting the types 
of players that were needed and 

909
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:01,520
there was some antiquated 
offense. 

910
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:06,760
But it just felt from outside 
like a really cruel way to to do

911
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,800
a guy who was as you said, the 
greatest coach in Indiana 

912
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,000
football history. 
I mean, what was the perspective

913
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,360
on that like in the locker room?
It was brutal. 

914
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,320
I mean, it was, it was like, it 
was like a death in the family. 

915
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:30,840
And you know, he was such a, you
know, loyal, compassionate, 

916
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,240
caring person, but he's also 
very, very stubborn. 

917
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:41,400
And I think him the running, the
type of offense that he wanted 

918
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,600
to run, that I think he learned 
from Woody Hayes and he was 

919
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,080
still wanted to can you continue
when really the the rest of 

920
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:49,760
college football at that time 
was evolving. 

921
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,360
That was when, you know, I 
believe Danny Werfel was my, 

922
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,320
that was in 1996 with Steve 
Spurger and they were throwing 

923
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,400
the ball all over the place. 
And I think Michigan was you 

924
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,200
know the Big 10 was trying to 
catch up in a lot of ways still 

925
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:05,840
is trying to cut you up to the 
SEC. 

926
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:12,280
But really we he wanted to 
continue doing what we were 

927
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,560
always did and I think that 
ultimately caught up with him 

928
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,760
and and I'm sure you remember 
Clarence Doniger and I remember 

929
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,240
I know him very well and he was 
such a nice guy and I think the 

930
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:25,840
pressure just really really 
amounted he didn't want to do 

931
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:27,120
it. 
I know deep down he didn't want 

932
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,560
to do it. 
I know he loved coach Mallory. 

933
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,600
I know everyone in that other 
select department had so much 

934
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,600
respect and admiration for coach
Mallory. 

935
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:39,760
Nobody wanted to do it But you 
know it's hard to it's hard to 

936
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,240
look past to a nine in in three 
and eight. 

937
00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:47,920
But to do it the way that it was
done was very unusual. 

938
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,160
And I I just remember there he 
was like, they can fire me, but 

939
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,040
I'm not leaving. 
They can fire me right now, but 

940
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,320
I'm not leaving. 
They can do it now or they can 

941
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,520
wait till the end of the year. 
And I think that I think the 

942
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,800
university and the 
administration and whomever 

943
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,320
really at the top was making the
calls. 

944
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:08,680
Like for for the fans sake, for 
momentum's sake, for whatever, 

945
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,920
for the future, we need to let 
the public know now that we're 

946
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,000
moving on. 
And I, you know, I don't know 

947
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,920
what it accomplished. 
It was for the locker room. 

948
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,840
It was terrible. 
It didn't it it was on our bye 

949
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,360
week. 
So it was after the Penn State 

950
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,400
game, first going back to the 
Michigan game and kind of what 

951
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,200
happened with with my career and
I had started. 

952
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,720
I think Michigan game was maybe 
the sixth game of the year, 6th 

953
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:39,640
or 7th game of the year. 
We're playing. 

954
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:45,560
We're playing at Michigan, and I
had been the starter for the 

955
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:48,160
better part of 2 1/2 years, more
or less. 

956
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:54,000
And we we go. 
So, I mean, I'm. 

957
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,760
I'm taking all the starter reps 
for the last 2 1/2 years 

958
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,360
especially, I'm taking all the 
starter reps for the entire 1996

959
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,320
season. 
We are getting ready to go get 

960
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,720
onto the bus and leaving the 
hotel to go to Michigan Stadium.

961
00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:09,840
2 hours before kickoff. 
We're walking out of the 

962
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:13,200
auditorium where Coach Mallard 
gives his final speech to the 

963
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:17,000
team. 
I'm getting close to the door to

964
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,160
get to the bus, Coach Mallory 
yells. 

965
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,520
Chris. 
Jay, Jay Rogers, come here, I 

966
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:22,880
want to talk to you guys really 
fast. 

967
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,320
We walk over there, we don't say
a word. 

968
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,360
He looks at both of us and he 
says, Jay, you're starting 

969
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:29,680
today. 
Chris, you're the back up. 

970
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:34,400
Get on the bus and we're both 
look at each other like what 

971
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,600
just happened. 
And Jay, Jay and I were he was a

972
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,360
freshman. 
He was a red shirt freshman. 

973
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,320
Jay and I were great friends. 
There was, you know, there was 0

974
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,440
animosity. 
I was not like John and Jay was 

975
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,920
not like John. 
And you know the way John was 

976
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,160
just kind of like I'm the man 
and I obviously when you start, 

977
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:56,880
you've got to kind of have that 
persona. 

978
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,560
But I still was more of a laid 
back quarterback, if you will. 

979
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:06,200
And Jay, we get on the bus and I
start telling guys around me 

980
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,480
like my roommates and I'm like 
guys, I'm not starting today. 

981
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,960
And they're all like, what? 
I'm like Jay's starting and 

982
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,280
Jay's sitting right next to you.
He's like, yeah, we have no idea

983
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,160
what just happened, but I'm 
starting and I don't really know

984
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:19,920
what's going on. 
And but we go to the game and 

985
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,760
you know, I kind of take the the
backup role again. 

986
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,040
And I'm trying to help Jay as 
much as I can. 

987
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,640
And we're highly competitive. 
Like we absolutely, almost win 

988
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,280
that freaking game. 
Jay plays his ass off. 

989
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,960
He plays great. 
Alex has a great game. 

990
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,040
Our defense plays incredibly 
well. 

991
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:42,280
My college roommate, which I had
five and there were six of us, 

992
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,680
and we still are incredibly 
close to this day, which is 

993
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,160
something I'm so thankful for 
from my experience without you. 

994
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,440
But Craig Goody, whose son plays
shooting guard for Illinois, 

995
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,600
which is another podcast, he 
should be playing shooting guard

996
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,920
for Indiana basketball but 
Archie Miller didn't want to 

997
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:04,760
recruit him for some reason. 
But Craig Goody caught A1 yard 

998
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,800
pass on Charles Woodson. 
Now it was supposed to be like a

999
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,320
12 yard hook. 
It ended up being a A1 yard hook

1000
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,400
because he could not get off the
ball and Charles Woodson's jam 

1001
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,800
was so good. 
But he caught a pass on Charles 

1002
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:21,240
Woodson that day and which is 
which is something we will we 

1003
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:26,000
laugh about all the time. 
But that game was competitive. 

1004
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:30,600
And then we go to Penn State and
again we're we're somewhat 

1005
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,840
competitive for you know 
typically Indiana football 2 

1006
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,400
1/2, three quarters and then 
Penn State takes over and we 

1007
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,720
lose by several scores then we 
and then they with that's our 

1008
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,560
bye week and they make this 
announcement. 

1009
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:48,920
And like we talked about it was 
just an incredibly sad situation

1010
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:53,720
that I, you know several of us 
went to the press conference and

1011
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:57,160
we're standing there just like 
is this are they really doing 

1012
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,240
this right now like we get it 
we're not playing well but do 

1013
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,880
you have to basically kick us 
while we're down. 

1014
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,440
And we, you know, we understand 
that probably something's going 

1015
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,760
to happen at the end of the 
year, but can you just let him 

1016
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,640
but, and they they make it sound
like, you know, we're going to 

1017
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:14,960
let him finish the end of the 
season. 

1018
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:17,560
But this is it. 
And we're like, well, how does 

1019
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:22,120
that help this situation at all?
I mean and you were time 

1020
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,920
following college football. 
Have you ever seen a coach get 

1021
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,280
fired and then remain and coach 
out to the rest? 

1022
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,960
Here obviously there's usually 
an interim coach put in place. 

1023
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,800
It's I I can count on one hand 
the number of times I've seen it

1024
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,080
and it's always kind of a 
peculiar situation. 

1025
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,440
And it just it it just looked, 
it looked weird from the 

1026
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,080
outside. 
And it doesn't surprise me that 

1027
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:42,880
that was the perception from the
inside. 

1028
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:44,000
I mean it's. 
Oh yeah. 

1029
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,080
Yeah, it was tough. 
There there were actually two 

1030
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,080
more moments from that season 
now that I think about it. 

1031
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:53,000
So the Ohio State game, which is
2 games later, Ohio State wins 

1032
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,520
that game and that was the game 
that their fans rush the field, 

1033
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,560
tear down one of the goal posts,
and then you guys end up 

1034
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:04,360
surrounding the other goal post 
to keep them from tearing that 

1035
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:08,640
one down. 
Yes, yeah, that was, that was 

1036
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:14,880
terrible and just, you know, 
another long line of experiences

1037
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,920
that in my life I've just 
learned from, you know, and and 

1038
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,440
like, it's it was a tough thing 
to endure. 

1039
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,560
But even going back to the 
Michigan State game, you know, 

1040
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,360
kind of the first game out of 
coach Mallory being a lame duck 

1041
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:32,400
coach, like we could not have 
been, we could not have played 

1042
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,400
worse in that game. 
We were, it was, it was just, we

1043
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,520
were everyone still had the 
hangover from that press 

1044
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:42,000
conference and it was just a sad
football game. 

1045
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:46,400
And then somehow we go to the 
Ohio State game where if they 

1046
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,200
win, they clinch and they go to 
the Rose Bowl. 

1047
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,240
And my God, I mean, we had an 
opportunity to win that game. 

1048
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,280
We were, I believe we were 
winning late into the third 

1049
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,400
quarter, maybe even early in the
fourth quarter. 

1050
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,080
And then Matt Finkus stripped 
Jay Rogers and ran it back for a

1051
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:01,600
touchdown. 
And that was kind of all she 

1052
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,280
wrote. 
And yeah, they're freaking fans 

1053
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,800
were along that fence line on 
the South end of the end zone. 

1054
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,000
And as soon as that game ended, 
they got that goal post. 

1055
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:16,680
And then fights erupted and it 
got pretty heated down there. 

1056
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:23,000
And I mean, the locker room was 
a mess after that game because 

1057
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:28,720
we realized, Oh my gosh, their 
fans came and tore down one of 

1058
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,080
our goal posts. 
I mean, it was from 

1059
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:39,120
embarrassment to shame to anger 
to this is the last game for the

1060
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:42,960
seniors will ever play Memorial 
Stadium and Ohio State fans tore

1061
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,520
down our goal posts. 
Their players are running around

1062
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:49,800
with roses in their mouths and 
and you know as a senior that 

1063
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:51,400
that was all the things that we 
dreamed of. 

1064
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,840
You know, those were all of the 
moments, you know when you come.

1065
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,640
When we came in as freshmen and 
back then we were a very highly 

1066
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:06,600
touted class and to be the class
that ultimately was somewhat 

1067
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:10,400
responsible for getting Bill 
Mallory fired, it sucks. 

1068
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,000
And it's something that it's a 
responsibility that I think 

1069
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,880
about. 
And those moments, like the Ohio

1070
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,040
State game, also brutal because 
of. 

1071
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,000
I mean, there were helmets 
flying. 

1072
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,600
There was shit being tossed in 
our life. 

1073
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:28,160
It was a very, very heated and 
emotional locker room because we

1074
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,920
also knew it was Coach Mallory's
last home game as the head coach

1075
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,080
at Indiana. 
And it was it. 

1076
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:40,600
That was probably one of the 
worst days, maybe of my career 

1077
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,920
there. 
Just as a whole, when you 

1078
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:46,400
combine everything that happened
and and and Ohio State fans are 

1079
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,560
relentless, they don't care. 
They just they're they felt like

1080
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:52,200
it was their field. 
They felt like they had every 

1081
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:56,320
right to do what they did. 
And luckily we got enough guys 

1082
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:58,880
to get to the other goal post 
before. 

1083
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,680
They couldn't get it, 'cause 
they were going after that one 

1084
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:02,800
too, right? 
They were freaking going after 

1085
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:08,640
that one. 
But as bad as that Saturday was,

1086
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,120
yeah. 
I was going to say I mean and I 

1087
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:15,440
was at the the next Saturday 
game and you know the it's 

1088
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:18,760
Mallory's last game. 
You know Purdue, Purdue. 

1089
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,000
It was in an interesting spot at
that point too because Jim 

1090
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,360
Coletto was the head coach and 
they that had never really 

1091
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,960
launched for them. 
But I think everybody expected 

1092
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:32,080
that Purdue was going to win 
that game and then you know you 

1093
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:35,920
guys came in and were just 
pretty dominant throughout. 

1094
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,200
Like I I remember sitting in the
stands I I was a senior in high 

1095
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,760
school I was I was going to go 
to IU starting the next year. 

1096
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,760
I was with a friend of mine who 
was also an IU fan and I 

1097
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,960
remember like midway through the
the second quarter I was like 

1098
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:50,240
this is great let's let's keep 
doing this and it ended up 

1099
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,360
running all the way to the end 
with with Mallory getting 

1100
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:53,800
carried off on you guys's 
shoulders. 

1101
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:54,960
It was a really cool thing to. 
See. 

1102
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,960
Yeah, that. 
It gives me chills thinking 

1103
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,040
about it and talking about it to
this day. 

1104
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:06,000
And that was that was such an 
emotional week really for 

1105
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,440
everyone involved, especially 
the seniors and that coaching 

1106
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,560
staff who knew that they had 
coached together for so long. 

1107
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:14,640
You know, some of them going 
back with Coach Mallory to 

1108
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,160
Colorado days and then the 
Northern, I mean Northern 

1109
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,400
Illinois and then Indiana. 
I mean, we're talking over 20 

1110
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:24,680
years of a staff being together,
which is unheard of this day and

1111
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:30,320
age to have that continuity. 
But I still going into that 

1112
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:34,760
Monday, I was not the starter. 
Jay was going to start that game

1113
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,280
and I went into Coach Mallory's 
office at like, I don't know, 

1114
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,040
6:30 AM Monday morning because 
I've been talking with my 

1115
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,480
roommates and my dad on that 
Sunday. 

1116
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:48,040
Like, I mean, I got to start. 
I I got to do whatever I can to 

1117
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:49,080
start this game. 
I don't. 

1118
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:52,520
I mean, what if I have to beg 
Coach Mallory If I have to, I I 

1119
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,280
don't know what it is going to 
take, what I need to do, but I 

1120
01:04:56,280 --> 01:05:01,080
need to start this game. 
So I went in, set a meeting with

1121
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:06,040
him, sat down and just said, hey
coach, you know, understand 

1122
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:11,400
Jay's the starter right now, but
this is my senior year. 

1123
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,280
This is my last opportunity to 
play. 

1124
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:18,760
Can I start this game? 
And he looked right at me and he

1125
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:24,280
said no, we're going with Jay. 
So you need to keep doing what 

1126
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,000
you're doing, be the backup and 
have a good week of practice. 

1127
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,880
So I leave there and it's like 
6:30 Monday morning. 

1128
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:33,640
I don't even know if I go to 
class that day. 

1129
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:37,920
I'm kind of devastated. 
I go home and I tell him, my 

1130
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,680
guys, I'm like, Nope. 
He said no, this is not 

1131
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,680
happening. 
They're like, well, sorry, man, 

1132
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,000
but we got to, we got to try and
win this game. 

1133
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:51,680
I'm like, yeah, we do. 
I get to practice that night and

1134
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:58,200
Coach Mallory calls me back into
his office and he's like Chris, 

1135
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,480
coaches met all day today. 
We talked about what to do with 

1136
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:03,640
you and Jay and we decided that 
you're going to start. 

1137
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:07,240
And I was like Oh my God, you 
know I I started crying. 

1138
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:12,320
I was like, you know, I I get 
you know we had a pretty hard we

1139
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:14,720
just had a hard part 
conversation at that time where 

1140
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:22,160
obviously my career didn't go 
the way I envisioned it his you 

1141
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,360
know coach around. 
I ever had some incredible all 

1142
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:28,400
time moments for Indiana 
football during his career 

1143
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,960
there, but it definitely didn't 
end the way he envisioned 

1144
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:35,000
either. 
But I think we were at that time

1145
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,800
we could. 
I left his office and we were 

1146
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:41,320
together at that like we. 
That was one of the closest 

1147
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,520
moments that I ever had with him
because we only wanted one thing

1148
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:46,800
and that was just a win. 
Like I didn't care how we did 

1149
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,320
it. 
He didn't. 

1150
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:55,560
He never cared how he did it and
I Purdue at that time, yeah, 

1151
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:57,080
they were better. 
They had a better record than 

1152
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:58,080
us. 
I think they had just beaten 

1153
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:02,560
Michigan ironically. 
I was really good friends with 

1154
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:05,760
their quarterback Rick Tresker. 
So I I communicated with him 

1155
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:10,200
that week and was like I'm I'm 
starting and he was a senior too

1156
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:12,920
and had an absolutely up and 
down career as well. 

1157
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:17,320
So we were like man, this is it.
Let's just see what happens and 

1158
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:23,040
like you said, I mean, but there
was so much pressure on us 

1159
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:28,640
because we could not live with 
ourselves if coach Mallory went 

1160
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:33,200
out with a loss to Purdue given 
what just had happened with 

1161
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:40,280
against Ohio State and it it the
game fortunately, yeah, like you

1162
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,680
mentioned, we just came out on 
fire. 

1163
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:45,880
Our running game was clicking. 
I think Alex rushed for over 200

1164
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:49,000
yards. 
I, you know, we completed some 

1165
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:52,640
passes. 
Nothing exciting, but I didn't 

1166
01:07:52,640 --> 01:07:54,840
turn the ball over, so I was 
happy about that. 

1167
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:58,320
We had a, you know, Nathan 
Davis, who actually was one of 

1168
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:02,800
our NFL guys, blocked the punt, 
showed incredible athleticism. 

1169
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,400
He was like 6629. 
He blocked the punt, ran it like

1170
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,720
50 yards back for a touchdown. 
We gained momentum and and 

1171
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:13,480
really never lost it and 
fortunately ran away with a 

1172
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:17,120
fairly easy victory which we 
thought it was going to be 

1173
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:18,680
tough. 
But I just to me that was like 

1174
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:22,240
the football gods were shining 
down upon us because they knew 

1175
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:25,040
as much as Coach Malley had 
given to that program that there

1176
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:29,000
was no way that they were going 
to allow him to leave his and 

1177
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:30,479
his career with a loss to 
Purdue. 

1178
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,720
As much as that game meant to 
meant to him and that and I and 

1179
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:39,200
like you mentioned the you know 
when you I think, I feel like 

1180
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:43,439
when you've talked to guys that 
play college football obviously 

1181
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,560
winning at home is great but 
winning on the road is, is is 

1182
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:52,760
for some reason so much better 
because the people that are 

1183
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:57,359
there are the true like they are
the fans. 

1184
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:03,439
And I, you know, I, my family, 
all of our families were in that

1185
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:05,040
corner of the end zone and all 
that. 

1186
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:08,760
Maybe 1000, maybe 2000. 
But those were the ones that 

1187
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:11,000
really cared about Coach 
Mallory, that really cared about

1188
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,000
the program, that really cared 
about US winning. 

1189
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,600
And I felt like it felt like we 
were going to tell there were 

1190
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:19,399
mentions from us, like, let's 
get their goal. 

1191
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:21,319
Posts. 
Let's get their goal posts. 

1192
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:26,160
Obviously that that wasn't 
really serious, but that did 

1193
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:29,520
cross our minds and you know, my
mom and dad were. 

1194
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:32,200
I've got a great picture with my
dad on the field after that 

1195
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:34,000
game. 
I've got a great picture with my

1196
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:37,640
girlfriend at the time, who's 
now my wife of 26 years, had a 

1197
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,160
great picture with her down on 
the on that field after that 

1198
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:45,080
game. 
And I mean, the locker room was 

1199
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:47,279
ecstatic. 
I mean, it was literally like we

1200
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,960
had won the Rose Bowl bus ride 
home. 

1201
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,880
We were smoking cigars, drinking
beers with the coaches because 

1202
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:55,600
they were done. 
They didn't care. 

1203
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,560
Seniors, we were done. 
We didn't care. 

1204
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:01,960
We were just one number, one 
very, very relieved. 

1205
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:08,560
But #2, to go out your senior 
year meeting Purdue at Purdue is

1206
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:12,240
about as special as it gets, 
despite the career in the in the

1207
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:17,040
five years that I experienced. 
So I feel very fortunate to to 

1208
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:20,320
have an end that way and that 
night was incredible. 

1209
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:23,920
Also we had, you know, as I 
mentioned, I lived with five 

1210
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,040
other guys and all of our 
families were so incredibly 

1211
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,200
close. 
We rented out a room in the 

1212
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:33,960
Union. 
We had a big party. 

1213
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,480
We're probably all of all of our
siblings, all of our parents, 

1214
01:10:37,480 --> 01:10:39,720
grandparents. 
We were all every like. 

1215
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,080
It was such a unique day. 
At night. 

1216
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:45,080
Everyone got up and spoke about 
what the last five years meant 

1217
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,240
to us. 
Our parents did, our siblings 

1218
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,560
did. 
I mean it was it was tight and 

1219
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:55,760
I'll never forget it. 
And I feel so lucky to have been

1220
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:59,400
to have gone three in one versus
Purdue in my career that I that 

1221
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,040
I played. 
So I don't really count that 

1222
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:05,640
first one where Trent 
helicoptered the guy since I was

1223
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:07,120
red shirt, yeah. 
You weren't officially, you 

1224
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,520
weren't officially, you know, on
the depth chart for that one. 

1225
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,080
I think you could, you could put
that one to the side, right. 

1226
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:14,280
Well, a couple of other 
questions. 

1227
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:17,200
This has been great. 
I mean, first of all, catch the 

1228
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:20,760
people up on what you've been up
to since your time at IU. 

1229
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:26,320
Yeah. 
So it's hard to believe that 

1230
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:33,080
it's, well, 90, it's been almost
30 years and goes by so fast as 

1231
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,880
you know, I'm sure you're you're
thinking the same thing. 

1232
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,920
Keenly aware of it being here, 
you know, as a as a professor. 

1233
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:40,800
Now it's a It's a unique 
experience. 

1234
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:44,840
Yes, yeah, very much so. 
Well, after Andy, after I 

1235
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:46,680
graduated, I will. 
I did. 

1236
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:50,600
I signed with the Detroit Lions 
free agent contract. 

1237
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:54,800
I was with them for about 2 1/2 
years kind of off and on, and I 

1238
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:58,080
was able to be on their active 
roster for four games. 

1239
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,200
So I count that as a win even 
though it was 2 training camps 

1240
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:07,360
and was brought back. 
I was cut at the end of training

1241
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:13,200
camp for two years but brought 
back at the end of the 1998 

1242
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,400
season when Charlie Batch got 
hurt. 

1243
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,080
They brought me in and as the 
third quarterback when Scott 

1244
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:20,480
Mitchell was the starter and 
Frank Reich was the backup. 

1245
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:23,840
That and then my career ended 
with Detroit. 

1246
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:25,440
They didn't resign me, no one 
else resigned me. 

1247
01:12:25,440 --> 01:12:26,600
So it's time for me to get a 
job. 

1248
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:31,800
My wife, who was a journalism 
major at IU, was working for a 

1249
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:34,920
pretty large public relations 
firm out of Chicago. 

1250
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:40,120
And she opened an office in 
Indianapolis and was basically 

1251
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:44,320
running that sector of the 
business for her boss in 

1252
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:48,320
Chicago, who had offices in LA 
and New York and San Francisco 

1253
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:51,080
and now Indianapolis. 
And she had hired six or seven 

1254
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:53,000
people, basically just operating
a business. 

1255
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,800
So I was a sales guy. 
I knew I was going to be a sales

1256
01:12:55,800 --> 01:12:57,720
guy. 
I was, I was going to go into 

1257
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:01,520
that. 
But we kind of took my 

1258
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:06,040
brother-in-law came to us with 
the idea of, hey, let's, we'll 

1259
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:08,000
start a business. 
You know, Eliza's got the 

1260
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:13,240
experience of journalism, of PR,
which she was incredible at. 

1261
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,200
My brother-in-law and I had the 
sales experience, so we did. 

1262
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:20,640
And we've been running. 
Ditto public relations for we'll

1263
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,400
actually have our 25th 
anniversary coming up in 

1264
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:27,480
September and we we our our 
bread and butter is getting our 

1265
01:13:27,480 --> 01:13:31,040
clients names in the the 
headlines and newspapers, 

1266
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:33,840
magazines, television radio 
across the country. 

1267
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,000
We have three kids and we, you 
know we got married young and 

1268
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:43,600
Mary was 23. 
Our kids are now 2321 and 20 as 

1269
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:48,080
I think I mentioned, but two one
is in grad school at IU, one's a

1270
01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:51,360
senior at college at Charleston 
and in South Carolina. 

1271
01:13:51,480 --> 01:13:54,720
And then I've got a son who's a 
freshman at IU. 

1272
01:13:54,720 --> 01:14:03,240
So unfortunately or fortunately 
for our 20 year old son, he is a

1273
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:07,480
die hard Indiana sports fan, 
both football and basketball. 

1274
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:10,880
He was actually at the Iowa game
sitting pretty closely on 

1275
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:14,080
Tuesday night. 
What a game that was and what a 

1276
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:17,920
moment for Anthony Leal. 
But I've I've lived in Indiana 

1277
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,280
also our our offices in broader 
pool, lived in Indianapolis for 

1278
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:25,600
the last 25 plus years and and 
loving it and go to have season 

1279
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:29,640
tickets for IU football and go 
to pretty much every game every 

1280
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:33,760
year. 
And when I meet a a person who 

1281
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:37,560
says they are a long time IU 
fan, IU football fan, I'm 

1282
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,280
shocked. 
But I love it too, because it 

1283
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:44,680
doesn't happen very often. 
No, I I can, I can verify that 

1284
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:47,520
from my own perspective. 
It's it's it's a rare bird you 

1285
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:50,520
meet in the wild that's an IU 
football fan for more than maybe

1286
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:53,320
a a decade or so. 
Well, let me finish with this 

1287
01:14:53,320 --> 01:14:56,160
then. 
Obviously a lot of upheaval with

1288
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:58,600
IU football over the course of 
the last few months. 

1289
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,280
Indiana goes out and hires Kurt 
Cignetti. 

1290
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:04,720
I don't know what your 
perspectives on it been so far 

1291
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:07,120
and I'm curious about it. 
I mean, the energy just feels 

1292
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,480
different right now around the 
football program than it has in 

1293
01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:14,040
a while. 
It does And I, you know, I first

1294
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:17,000
of all I loved Tom Allen. 
You know, he reminded me in a 

1295
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:23,360
lot of ways of Coach Mallory. 
He loved, you know, everybody 

1296
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,440
knows how much Tom Allen loved 
Indiana football and and loves 

1297
01:15:26,440 --> 01:15:30,920
the state of Indiana in general.
So and in the run that he had 

1298
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,440
obviously shocked everybody and 
I think there were some 

1299
01:15:34,440 --> 01:15:38,640
circumstances that why that 
happened whether it was COVID or

1300
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,480
whether it was Michael Pennix or
whether it was take Ramsey or 

1301
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,040
you know if you think about 
Kevin Wilson years and the 

1302
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:50,360
talent and the NFL talent that 
he brought on that bleeded over 

1303
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:55,720
to Tom Allen's years somewhat. 
But obviously the last two years

1304
01:15:56,480 --> 01:15:58,840
they can't happen and and 
unfortunately I think coach 

1305
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:01,600
Allen would admit that you got 
to make a move. 

1306
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,000
So they they did. 
And and what coach Signetti has 

1307
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:09,600
done has been unbelievable. 
The momentum just, I don't know,

1308
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,880
the brashness, this first 
introduction where he said 

1309
01:16:13,480 --> 01:16:16,920
Purdue sucks, Michigan sucks. 
I mean, I'm just like, whoa, 

1310
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:19,400
this does not happen. 
Like what? 

1311
01:16:20,160 --> 01:16:22,040
Indiana football doesn't talk 
like this. 

1312
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:23,800
Like what? 
What are we doing? 

1313
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:28,080
But why not? 
Like, we literally have nothing 

1314
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:33,880
to lose. 
So I I just hope it's backed up.

1315
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:38,240
You know, it's one thing to talk
like this and be very, very 

1316
01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:41,120
confident, and he has a right to
be. 

1317
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:45,360
He's won everywhere he's been. 
But as you and I know, Indiana 

1318
01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:49,680
football is a whole different 
animal and winning Indiana has 

1319
01:16:49,680 --> 01:16:54,720
proven to be nearly impossible 
over a consistent amount of 

1320
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:58,760
years. 
Especially now that it's 18 

1321
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,680
teams and you're adding 
Washington, Oregon, USCUCLAUSC, 

1322
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:04,520
it's going to make it even more 
challenging. 

1323
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:08,400
So I'm off. 
I'm, I guess overall I'm 

1324
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:10,440
optimistic. 
I'm I'm not. 

1325
01:17:10,440 --> 01:17:12,360
I'm not. 
I'm going to be there next fall.

1326
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:15,840
I can't wait. 
And I just hope the momentum and

1327
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:19,920
you know, and the bravado that 
Coach Signetti has carries over 

1328
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:21,080
to wins. 
That's all we want. 

1329
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:23,520
That's the thing. 
It's I think you I've, I've 

1330
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:26,200
struggled with this a lot as a 
long time IU football fan. 

1331
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:30,240
You need to have something to 
believe in as an IU football 

1332
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,680
fan, and I think that's been the
greatest accomplishment so far, 

1333
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:37,480
is that for those of us who want
to believe it's there, it's the 

1334
01:17:37,480 --> 01:17:39,800
results that are always the 
tricky part and it's the 

1335
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,680
consistency of the results and 
that is still to be determined. 

1336
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,480
But I gotta say I like the 
approach. 

1337
01:17:45,480 --> 01:17:47,960
It's different, as you said, 
from what you're used to seeing 

1338
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:51,880
and maybe some bravado is 
necessary to get players to buy 

1339
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:55,160
into something that isn't 
physically there yet, but is is 

1340
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:57,320
something that can be there 
eventually. 

1341
01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:01,040
Right, right. 
And then you know, when you 

1342
01:18:02,120 --> 01:18:05,680
combine that and you think about
all the challenges that coaches 

1343
01:18:05,680 --> 01:18:11,560
have now with NIL and the 
transfer portal, to me it feels 

1344
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:14,040
almost like an impossible job. 
And I don't care if you're 

1345
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:19,880
Indiana or Alabama or Michigan, 
the thought of having to end 

1346
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:22,920
your season, whether it's in 
November or December or January,

1347
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:30,520
and then turn around and recruit
your own team that's already on 

1348
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:34,320
your roster or else they're 
going to go and enter the 

1349
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:37,880
transfer portal. 
I mean, I'm sure you've talked 

1350
01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:40,360
about and thought about this 
cannot sustain, sustain itself. 

1351
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,040
There's going to have to be some
sort of limitations or changes 

1352
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:46,240
or or whatever. 
And I think I saw somebody write

1353
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:51,920
an article recently about, 
imagine if a quarterback in the 

1354
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:56,640
NFL, Patrick Mahomes at the end 
of every year was able to just 

1355
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,680
say, oh, now I'm, I'm entering 
the portal. 

1356
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:01,320
I don't want to play for the 
Chiefs anymore. 

1357
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:04,560
I'm going to go play for the OR 
I'm going to go play for whoever

1358
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:06,600
is the highest bidder. 
They don't, you know, they. 

1359
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,000
It's just not feasible. 
It's not. 

1360
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:12,160
There's a reason why there's 
contracts in the NFL, so that 

1361
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:14,320
can't happen. 
Then these teams protect 

1362
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:16,800
themselves somehow. 
There has to be some level of 

1363
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:22,160
protection down for all of these
schools and it needs to happen. 

1364
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:28,440
There's there's you can't have 
where things are at right now 

1365
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:31,480
without treating it differently 
than it's been treated college 

1366
01:19:31,480 --> 01:19:34,640
football by the schools in 
charge and there's a mere that's

1367
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:37,600
as you've mentioned a couple of 
times that's another podcast 

1368
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:40,240
because that takes a long time 
to get into because it's 

1369
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:43,280
complicated and and I think for 
even people that have been 

1370
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:47,240
involved in football at the 
college level, you know as 

1371
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:49,400
players or as coaches it's a 
hard thing to get your head 

1372
01:19:49,400 --> 01:19:52,600
wrapped around because so much 
of it is caught up in 

1373
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:56,440
administrators and television 
contracts and this perspective 

1374
01:19:56,440 --> 01:19:59,560
of well, we're not really a 
professional sport but. 

1375
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:02,600
If you actually look at all of 
the things that we do, we are a 

1376
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:05,560
professional sport, but we're 
not operating with contracts. 

1377
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,920
It's why there's so much chaos 
and so hopefully at some point, 

1378
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:12,800
the powers that be realized 
that, and until then, if you're 

1379
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:16,880
a head coach trying to navigate 
these waters, it's it's fraught 

1380
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,640
because you just never know what
to expect on a day-to-day basis.

1381
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:24,680
Right, right. 
And another podcast would be 

1382
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:27,800
What's going to happen in 
Michigan and what the the well. 

1383
01:20:28,440 --> 01:20:30,920
That I mean even I mean there 
was a story today like Chip 

1384
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,840
Kelly may go to the commanders 
to be their offensive 

1385
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,600
coordinator. 
I actually kind of like how all 

1386
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:39,360
these changes are adding up in 
favor of IUI mean you know 

1387
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:42,040
Michigan loses their head coach,
Washington loses their head 

1388
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,120
coach, UCLA may lose their head 
coach. 

1389
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:48,200
It is a wild landscape right now
and should be a really 

1390
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:51,280
fascinating season for IU 
football. 8 home games coming up

1391
01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,760
this year and some winnable Rd. 
games too. 

1392
01:20:53,760 --> 01:20:55,960
It's it's it's going to be 
really interesting to see how 

1393
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:57,920
quickly the rubber hits the road
with this new team. 

1394
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:01,320
You gonna go out to UCLA? 
I'm planning on it at this 

1395
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:04,560
point, and I think I've heard 
from like 50 other IU fans who 

1396
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:05,800
are saying that they're gonna be
there. 

1397
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:08,080
Are you planning on it? 
I am, for sure. 

1398
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:11,160
That's great. 
I mean, I mean, when did I? 

1399
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,920
I I've always said in my 
lifetime I'd love to see how you

1400
01:21:13,920 --> 01:21:15,560
play in the Rose Bowl. 
Here's an opportunity. 

1401
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:21,960
Now it's not the actual Rose 
Bowl in January, but that would 

1402
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:25,840
be an incredible experience and 
depending on what we bring to 

1403
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:27,640
the table, possibly winnable 
game. 

1404
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:31,240
I mean UCLA has struggled over 
the years and I think they just 

1405
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:34,240
lost their quarterbacks. 
So you never know what can 

1406
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:39,720
happen and like I'm very, very 
optimistic for for this fall and

1407
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:41,160
it's going to be very 
interesting. 

1408
01:21:41,240 --> 01:21:44,280
I'm I'm actually real curious to
see how spring ball plays out 

1409
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:46,280
too. 
That's going to be and huge, 

1410
01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:47,960
hugely important. 
And excited. 

1411
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:49,880
Excited to see a spring game 
back. 

1412
01:21:50,080 --> 01:21:54,840
Yeah, like, wow. 
And maybe and and maybe name a 

1413
01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:59,760
starting quarterback immediately
after spring practice ends that 

1414
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:00,320
was. 
Awesome. 

1415
01:22:00,680 --> 01:22:02,520
Get out of here with that left. 
Can't happen? 

1416
01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:05,360
No? 
Well, we'll look forward to 

1417
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:09,480
seeing you hopefully at the 
spring game and at home games 

1418
01:22:09,480 --> 01:22:12,120
this upcoming season. 
Chris, I really appreciate you 

1419
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:13,560
taking the time to join us on 
the show. 

1420
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:17,280
This was enlightening. 
I greatly enjoyed it and you 

1421
01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:19,280
know, best of luck with you 
moving forward and we really 

1422
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:21,480
appreciate you sharing your 
memories of of being in an 

1423
01:22:21,480 --> 01:22:24,280
Indiana uniform. 
Well, I I really appreciate the 

1424
01:22:24,280 --> 01:22:26,400
opportunity. 
Love Indiana football. 

1425
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:28,960
Love Bloomington. 
Love Indiana University, 

1426
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:30,880
everything it stands for. 
Love falling. 

1427
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:34,880
You're listening to your 
podcast, really enjoy what you 

1428
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:39,280
and Scott do and yeah, look 
forward to to listening more and

1429
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:44,520
hopefully we're when we get to 
November, we're talking about a 

1430
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:48,920
who knows six or seven one team.
At a minimum, Absolutely. 

1431
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:51,880
Exactly. 
All right, Chris Ditto, former 

1432
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:55,360
IU starting quarterback for the 
Hoosiers. 

1433
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:57,720
Thank you again for joining us 
here on the show. 

1434
01:22:57,720 --> 01:22:58,200
Thank. 
You. 

1435
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:04,480
And our thanks once again to 
Chris Ditto, former Indiana 

1436
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:09,000
starting quarterback and a 
member of that middle period of 

1437
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,080
the 1990s in IU football. 
Some really great insights, 

1438
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:15,240
really enjoyed talking to Chris 
and hearing his perspective on 

1439
01:23:15,240 --> 01:23:18,440
his time here at Indiana. 
So we hope to have more of these

1440
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:20,480
types of interviews in the 
future. 

1441
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:24,320
And we've got football coverage 
coming up in not too terribly 

1442
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:26,800
long. 
Of course, spring practice going

1443
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:30,680
to get started relatively soon 
and then it'll all culminate in 

1444
01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:32,960
the spring game, the first 
spring game that Indiana's had 

1445
01:23:32,960 --> 01:23:35,400
in a while. 
Looking forward to that 

1446
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:38,440
Thursday, the 18th of April. 
So lots of fun things and lots 

1447
01:23:38,440 --> 01:23:40,440
of optimism around the football 
program. 

1448
01:23:40,440 --> 01:23:43,160
We're certainly very excited 
about that, and it's great to be

1449
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:45,640
able to go back and look at 
different areas of IU football 

1450
01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:49,320
and get a sense of how things 
have been and how it all adds up

1451
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:51,280
to where we may end up going 
eventually. 

1452
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:53,840
All right, that'll wrap things 
up here on this edition of 

1453
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:56,480
Crimson Cast. 
I'm Galen Clavio. 

1454
01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,480
Be sure to tune in later on this
week. 

1455
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:01,920
We'll have more content across 
the board in IU athletics. 

1456
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:04,240
Come in your direction. 
We'll catch you folks. 

1457
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,920
On the flip side, Bring back the
Bison song, everybody.