1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:05,800 Today on episode number 790 of cxo talk we're discussing 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:10,600 business transformation and secrets of the unknown. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,700 Our Guest is teef Rafiq. He's the former president of MGM 4 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:20,300 Resorts International and he's had an extraordinary career. 5 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:24,500 I really came up through digital native tech companies and I've 6 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:29,400 been part of startups, as well as Tech, Giants and Rose to a GM 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,800 level at Amazon and I ran a fairly sizable business unit in 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,700 2013. Many Industries began to see 9 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:39,400 that technology would reshape how those Industries work and 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,600 there began to be more technology focused roles in more 11 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,600 traditional companies outside Tech and I then went on a 12 00:00:46,608 --> 00:00:50,800 10-year run starting as a chief digital officer for McDonald's 13 00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:54,200 and over that 10-year period i Rose to the president level. 14 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:59,500 In this case that a large global company called MGM Resorts so I 15 00:00:59,508 --> 00:01:03,900 have Kind of been in the pure Silicon Valley culture and also 16 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:07,600 in the traditional culture of other large businesses T. 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,500 If you wrote this book, it's called decisions Sprint. 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,500 Tell us about that. The sound bite is a lot of 19 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:18,500 people are calling decisions for an atomic habits for Innovation. 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,400 And the reason why they say that is because it is very focused on 21 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,300 Innovation. But what's different about it is 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,000 looking at Innovation and looking at the specific building 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,100 blocks of how Innovation Works what the pitfalls are and how to 24 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:36,400 avoid them so that you can get a higher hit rate on your 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,900 Innovation, some more quality but also move faster with more 26 00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:44,700 velocity, which is something I think every every company in it, 27 00:01:44,700 --> 00:01:48,900 any industry is looking for a little to be a little bit more 28 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:52,900 specific. The book helps you make the leap 29 00:01:52,900 --> 00:01:57,300 from ideas to action by confronting the unknowns and I 30 00:01:57,300 --> 00:02:02,000 have really chosen to focus on I believe is the hardest part of 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,500 turning ideas into action which is embracing the unknowns. 32 00:02:05,900 --> 00:02:10,100 So in the book, I introduced the notion of Upstream work, which 33 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:13,600 is where promising ideas, face more questions than answers 34 00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:17,300 that's in constant contrast to Downstream, which is the 35 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:21,900 execution part of an initiative. So there's an upstream part that 36 00:02:21,900 --> 00:02:26,700 I feel hasn't really been elaborated on in enough detail. 37 00:02:26,700 --> 00:02:29,800 And so I focused on that I walk through the hidden structure. 38 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:33,600 Of Upstream work and introduce the methods that any team can 39 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,000 use to apply it to a specific thing that they're working on. 40 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:43,100 When you talk about Upstream work, can you be a little bit 41 00:02:43,100 --> 00:02:45,800 more specific? So that we have a clearer 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,000 picture of what that actually is. 43 00:02:48,300 --> 00:02:51,100 The first thing you realize after having a bright idea, is 44 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:55,200 that there are more questions than answers and what one 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:01,100 typical response to that is essentially To build a plan and 46 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:05,200 moving on to start to build something based on the things 47 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,900 that are known inside the company. 48 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:08,100 What do we know about this problem? 49 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:12,800 We're trying to solve, but what typically happens is that along 50 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,300 the way you realize there are blind spots, there are unknowns 51 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:19,100 they come up and they're very disruptive to the you know to 52 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:23,400 moving the idea forward because these blind spots, make us have 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,000 to basically go back to the start and start again from 54 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,300 scratch. And so when I talk about 55 00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:33,700 Upstream, Like I'm talking about the process of actually 56 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:36,700 servicing all the important unknowns and knowns at the 57 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:39,500 beginning and getting to the bottom of them and some 58 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:41,400 structured ways. So making the unknowns 59 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,700 actionable so it could be as simple as developing a great 60 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:50,900 question list of organized by subject matter and giving a team 61 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:55,600 space a week or two to run an exploration which is essentially 62 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,100 a discovery process around the key questions and develop Think 63 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:02,500 something like an FAQ. This is a very common practice 64 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:06,600 at Amazon for example, in every single initiative that they work 65 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,200 on and on the basis of that high-quality detective work, 66 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,400 that's when they move onto alignment. 67 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:16,200 So they don't move on to the suspend judgment on. 68 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,200 What's the right course of action or strategic Direction, 69 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:21,500 they spend time on exploration and Discovery. 70 00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:24,500 They do a really great job of it and then they move on to 71 00:04:24,500 --> 00:04:27,600 alignment then when people start nodding their heads because 72 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,900 they're standing out, high-quality understanding of A 73 00:04:29,907 --> 00:04:32,100 problem. They're ready to move on to 74 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:34,700 execution. And so there is a little bit of 75 00:04:34,700 --> 00:04:38,200 a sequence that a structure to how you go from the ambiguity of 76 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,600 a great idea. However, great it is to being 77 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,900 able to get a company to commit resources and be confident 78 00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:50,600 enough to move on to execution. How is this different from 79 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,300 traditional approaches? I think anybody who's running a 80 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:59,500 project of any type will look across the landscape and come up 81 00:04:59,500 --> 00:05:03,300 with With some type of list of what we don't know. 82 00:05:03,700 --> 00:05:06,700 What we're what the uncertainties are, or the risks? 83 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,700 How is this different from that? I think it's really two main 84 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:14,000 differences. The first is making Innovation, 85 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,900 more purposeful, and the second is making, it more inclusive, 86 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:21,000 but without being slow. So let me walk for each one. 87 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:25,900 A lot of times when we have a bright idea, we rush ahead to 88 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:29,300 developing a plan to realize that in start building it. 89 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,900 But instead, we might start with a problem statement and really 90 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:36,100 getting a lot of clarity around the problem that we're trying to 91 00:05:36,100 --> 00:05:37,700 solve. Like if you take an example in 92 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:40,500 the world today, let's say your Netflix and you have a problem 93 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:42,000 with password sharing, all right? 94 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,500 If you define the problem in in one way versus another, you're 95 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:48,700 going to get very different recommendations that the team 96 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:52,000 puts on the table. If I say the problem or Netflix 97 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,100 is to, you know, kind of crack down on password sharing that's 98 00:05:56,100 --> 00:05:59,100 very different than saying the problem is trying to find a 99 00:05:59,108 --> 00:06:01,000 balance. Between the needs of the user 100 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,900 and the commercial needs of Netflix and trying to find the 101 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:07,800 fair fairness within that space. If we start out with the right 102 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,300 problem statement, the team is going to produce very different 103 00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:15,500 work along the way. So when we I think when we look 104 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:18,800 at Innovation, it's not just having a bright idea, moving on 105 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,900 to start building a prototype. We need to, for example, make it 106 00:06:22,907 --> 00:06:26,200 more purposeful by anchoring it in the right problem statement, 107 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,600 and then running our exploration against that problem statement. 108 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,700 Now that leads me to my second Point around more inclusive 109 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:37,200 because it's my belief that the kinds of problems were solving. 110 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,900 And business today are complex, meaning. 111 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:43,200 You cannot solve them at one corner of a company and so when 112 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,200 I talk about being inclusive, I mean really getting enough of 113 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,800 the right brains of the company. Around the problem we're trying 114 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,300 to solve. This doesn't happen enough in 115 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:54,200 business because we think Innovation is the job of one 116 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,500 corner of the company, but when we do that, what happens is 117 00:06:57,500 --> 00:07:00,500 that, you know, the idea moves forward a bit It but then it 118 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:04,900 runs into roadblocks because of some missed items or some blind 119 00:07:04,900 --> 00:07:08,300 spots. And then the project experiences 120 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:11,100 some fits and starts because people are not confident because 121 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:15,100 they can poke holes. So I'm providing a workflow and 122 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,500 methodology where you could be purposeful and more inclusive, 123 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:22,600 but not slow and bureaucratic. And I think that's The Sweet 124 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,100 Spot of innovation that we need in this era. 125 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:32,700 Give us some examples of how this This works in practice 126 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,100 because I think the goal that you have the or the goals, I 127 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:41,900 should say that you've set out, which is to be very clear to be 128 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:47,800 thoughtful and inclusive around where you're headed again. 129 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:52,000 Everybody would kind of take that as motherhood and apple 130 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,400 pie. And so what is different and how 131 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,000 do you address this challenge? Because it is such a profound 132 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,100 challenge. For many organizations. 133 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,800 Well let's say you form the team around a strategic initiative, 134 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,200 you're up to start, you don't have to be able to start. 135 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,000 But let's say you are what happens in companies will teams 136 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,600 spend weeks and months and they go through a process of putting 137 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,000 recommendations on the table socializing, those 138 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,400 recommendations. And if those things look good, 139 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:24,300 then they get move on to decision making where the 140 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:27,500 company commits to the necessary actions. 141 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:30,900 Now, this entire process takes So weeks and months. 142 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:35,700 What I'm suggesting is that we break it into three main stages 143 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:39,900 of forces, exploration. And exploration is a concerted 144 00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:43,200 effort to surface the right considerations, especially the 145 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:45,500 unknowns, and get to the bottom of them. 146 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,800 Now, when you do exploration, it's a very neutral process. 147 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,200 So you're not leaning one way or the other. 148 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:54,900 You know, with this idea is too crazy. 149 00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:57,500 It's too small. It's the right direction. 150 00:08:57,500 --> 00:09:01,000 It's not the right direction. It's a More neutral exercise 151 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,600 around servicing the important consideration, especially on 152 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,500 knows but also the knowns and developing enough of a 153 00:09:08,508 --> 00:09:13,000 high-quality ground to to then move on to the next page, which 154 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,600 is alignment and Alignment is about bringing together. 155 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,500 What's been explored to draw conclusions? 156 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,700 Now, this is an important point because in my book, I write 157 00:09:22,700 --> 00:09:26,600 about a mistake I made where I banned the word alignment in 158 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,500 companies and being in the c-suite managing. 159 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:31,900 Also the people, you know, that was a big decision. 160 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,500 The reason I banded is because I was reacting to the tendency and 161 00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:43,100 companies to align before they explore and that led to very 162 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:47,600 small thinking because if you don't explore then you don't 163 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,700 know if something is really risky or hard to pull off. 164 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:55,800 It may be very achievable but if you rush ahead to align on the 165 00:09:55,808 --> 00:09:59,500 known Commodities you generally do a line on very small. 166 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,000 Oh thinking and produce small outcomes, which I didn't want 167 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:09,300 and I write about in the book, how I, you know, I refrained my 168 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:12,400 thinking and it wasn't about banning a line and that wasn't 169 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,800 the right move. It's about reframing alignment 170 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,900 so that you do exploration before alignment. 171 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:22,600 And so I started to preach the Mantra explore, then a line. 172 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,500 And so teams got that, I gave them the space to do their 173 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:29,500 exploration, but the second phase of a line. 174 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:33,700 Is about drawing conclusions but you need to do that based on a 175 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:36,300 really good process of exploration and Discovery. 176 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:40,900 When you do that, you tend to get very easy alignment and 177 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:45,000 companies because people tend to now their heads because they 178 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:48,200 can't poke holes, the blind spots are covered, you know, 179 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,300 they can see how you got to the recommendations. 180 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:54,400 That can draw the Red Thread between what you're recommending 181 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,600 and how you got there, which is very essential and that is 182 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,500 common, as you would like in companies. 183 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,400 And once you have alignment, your third phase is 184 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,300 decision-making which is identifying the necessary 185 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:09,100 actions and those are usually very layered that you need to 186 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:12,300 begin executing. So if you bring this together 187 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,900 into a flow it becomes very very powerful. 188 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:20,700 Today is very unstructured. It sounds like, you're 189 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:28,300 fundamentally driving a culture change based on a shifting 190 00:11:28,300 --> 00:11:34,300 mindset shifting Away from structure first and decisions. 191 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:40,200 First in order to reduce the ambiguity instead you're saying 192 00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:42,800 let's have an open field at first. 193 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,600 And let's narrow down from there based on our initial goals. 194 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,700 Is that a correct way of looking at this? 195 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:51,500 Yeah. In fact I refer to it as input 196 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:55,200 Obsession like you want to be obsessed to get inputs, 197 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,800 especially up front and that up for Upstream stage because Cuz 198 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,800 that's really going to save a lot of pain down the road. 199 00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:08,900 And when I talk about input, I mean things like what do we 200 00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:09,900 know? What do we not know? 201 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:12,100 What could go wrong? What do we need to get, right? 202 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:15,000 And you should be hungry for those inputs at the start 203 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,400 because they're not like casting judgment on your idea. 204 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,800 They're just trying to help you develop a mature that idea and 205 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:27,600 make it super strong. And in a company it's not one 206 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,500 corner of a company that has enough of these. 207 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,800 Inputs. And this is a big problem today 208 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,700 because, you know, if you look back as last 25 years of 209 00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:38,900 innovation and you have different models where you say, 210 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:42,300 okay, let's have an autonomous team that's doing Innovation. 211 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,100 Nothing wrong with that to start, but eventually you need 212 00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:49,800 to get input from the center of a company or the core of a 213 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,300 company in order to see hey, how can you contribute to our 214 00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:55,900 exploration? What should we be thinking 215 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:58,400 about? I'm trying to find the sweet 216 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,200 spot where the core of the company is not going to crush 217 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:06,800 the idea because that happens a lot and that's not good but also 218 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,700 we're not doing autonomous isolated Innovation that 219 00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:14,700 eventually fails to scale because it missed a whole 220 00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:18,700 tranches of considerations that it didn't build into how it's 221 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:20,700 all through the idea if that makes sense. 222 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,500 So there is a sweet spot to Leverage, The Connect 223 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:26,800 collective, intelligence of the organization. 224 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,600 But do that up front. So that as your Developing and 225 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,200 maturing the idea winning the recommendations on the table. 226 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:38,100 It just feels like it really holds together and that's where 227 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:41,300 people start to nod their heads provide their support and the 228 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:44,900 idea gets momentum. And so that's what I'm trying to 229 00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:48,800 propose and I think if you look back, we've the pendulum, the 230 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,000 all the swings and companies between autonomous Innovation, 231 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,500 and sort of doing innovation in the core. 232 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:58,100 And I think neither is exactly, right. 233 00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:00,900 So I'm trying to offer an alternative T''v the problem 234 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:05,100 that you've just described is so endemic. 235 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:12,800 You know, we hear the term and anti Innovation antibodies in 236 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:18,200 some cases that when a business wants to go down a new or a 237 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,800 changing or a different path, you have the entire weight of 238 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:28,000 existing processes and compensation plans and 239 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,900 incentives and All many, many, many different kinds of reasons 240 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:36,900 to keep going with what we're doing, especially if we're 241 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:40,900 successful. And what you're describing. 242 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:48,000 Seems like a seems like a, like a really big almost unobtainable 243 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,500 kind of goal for many large organizations. 244 00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:54,000 It is hacking the system, that's for sure. 245 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,800 And I have a chapter on how to hack a company's culture and I 246 00:14:58,808 --> 00:15:02,300 have a chapter on personas related to Innovation and the 247 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:06,200 reason I put in the personas Michael is because in my view, 248 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,100 you can Take advantage of the Skeptics in an organization and 249 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:15,900 actually, you can flip the script and the way to do that is 250 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:18,800 to take their input. Actually. 251 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:22,100 So not to ignore them but to take their input and take it as 252 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:24,400 a neutral input in the form of a question. 253 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,900 If someone get, if I have a bright idea, I'm at the, I'm at 254 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:32,500 the start and I have a question. I can do something about it. 255 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,300 I can make that question actionable. 256 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:38,100 I can get to the bottom of it. I can say we looked at it and 257 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:42,100 It's not as big a barrier as we thought, or thank you so much 258 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:44,100 that actually made her idea stronger. 259 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,100 However, if that question comes up Downstream, when we have the 260 00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:52,200 one, we're at the big meeting with the recommendation and the 261 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,400 ask then that question turns into questioning. 262 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,000 The idea itself is very different. 263 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,400 So the reason I'm obsessed with this idea of Upstream work is 264 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,700 that if you get that input of front, make it actionable, you 265 00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,300 can do something about it. You can hack the The 266 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:10,900 organization, even Skeptics actually. 267 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:17,300 So I do look at all roles in the company as being contributors to 268 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:21,100 Innovation. People who are, you know, let 269 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:25,300 more skeptical about ideas fine list neutralize their input and 270 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:28,800 take it as a let's build it into our question list, people who 271 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,000 are Visionary and who get it and who are living in the future. 272 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,900 Great, let them take advantage of that input to make their 273 00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:40,600 ideas stronger and more sound. Don't Get, please subscribe to 274 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,200 our newsletter. Hit the Subscribe button on our 275 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,500 website and you can subscribe to our YouTube channel, check out 276 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,400 cxo talk.com. We have amazing shows coming up. 277 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:57,100 Can you give us an example of where you took a situation in 278 00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:00,700 any one of your various really interesting positions that 279 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:05,099 you've had and and applied these principles, there are many 280 00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:08,800 examples in the book just to culture Two real quick. 281 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,400 I mean, at Amazon, which is, you know, very forward-looking and 282 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,000 open to new ideas and pushing new territory. 283 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,700 So, culturally, it's aligned. But it does face hard problems 284 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:22,400 where it doesn't always know the answer. 285 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,000 So when I was running a part of the Kindle business where we 286 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,500 allow authors to independently publish their books without a 287 00:17:30,508 --> 00:17:33,200 publisher. For example, we wanted to 288 00:17:33,208 --> 00:17:37,500 introduce the an exclusivity program where they would 289 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:41,100 incentivize The only publish with Amazon which would really 290 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:44,600 help the company quite a bit and we would give them more royalty. 291 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,100 So it's out. It sounded like a good idea that 292 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:51,100 we could probably pull off. But the challenge is it's 293 00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:54,800 Amazon, it's a behemoth and so you don't want to do things 294 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,300 where you're already strengthening your already 295 00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:00,200 strong position in the marketplace, you have to be very 296 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:04,000 careful and sensitive. So when it comes to things like 297 00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:08,600 making sure people honor their commitments and this Lucidity 298 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,900 program and compliance and monitoring and governance and 299 00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:15,200 all that stuff. It was an easy stuff things in 300 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,200 terms of how you enforce the policies. 301 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,300 We definitely had a lot of ambiguity around that. 302 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:23,900 So, looking at The Stance, we should take when someone 303 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:27,600 violates a policy. Like, should we be directly 304 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,500 enforcing it? How strong should we be? 305 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:35,300 We use the idea of servicing the things that could go wrong and 306 00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:38,700 developing the right questions to to come to the Right. 307 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,500 Sort of sweet spot of finding that balance between enforcement 308 00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:46,500 and not trying to be, you know, an overbearing, John giant of 309 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:49,600 sorts. So that's one example and Volvo 310 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:55,100 cars and something where no, I wasn't necessarily directing, 311 00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:58,900 but I think it's very relevant, you know, bulldoze big on the 312 00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:02,200 idea of sustainability. And so, you know, right person 313 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,400 in the company had an idea which was about the Interiors of the 314 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,500 cars and the idea was Was vegan leather? 315 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,700 So, you know, of cows, have a lot of emissions, how about 316 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,200 producing a leather? That's, you know, from 317 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,600 sustainable resources. There's a bright idea. 318 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,100 I think it's part of the sustainability, positioning of 319 00:19:22,108 --> 00:19:27,000 the company, but is it something that the company should act on? 320 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,000 There's a lot of questions, you know, is a feasible to get 321 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,300 enough materials for vegan leather. 322 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,000 What kind of customers would be customers pay more for it? 323 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,700 For example, could you even try Back the materials and verify 324 00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:47,600 that they're actually, you know, from sustainable sources. 325 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,900 Could we get enough volume for the amount of cars were going to 326 00:19:50,908 --> 00:19:54,200 produce, you know, a lot of questions before, you know, hey, 327 00:19:54,400 --> 00:20:00,600 this is a good idea or not. And so embracing those questions 328 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,700 at the start and making those questions, something you get to 329 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:09,000 the bottom of it before you draw conclusions or have a strong 330 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,700 opinion. It is something that was helpful 331 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:14,400 to the company. In that case we have a really 332 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,200 interesting question from Twitter from our Salon con, Our 333 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,300 Salon is a regular listener and I always ask is very 334 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:26,600 thought-provoking questions and he says this. 335 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,300 So I'm going to ask his question and then broaden its lately, 336 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:34,000 okay? He says digital transformation 337 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,300 is an enterprise-wide effort. Not everyone is interested in 338 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,000 doing it. And now, here is his question. 339 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,300 He says, how do you create a pipeline of innovation? 340 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:50,200 That is not only done by the R&D department? 341 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:57,000 And then I want to broaden it to the larger issue of you spoke 342 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:03,500 about alignment earlier, and inside any large organization, 343 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:07,900 you have so many conflicts of interests and different goals 344 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:10,500 and silo. Rose. 345 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:14,200 And as I said before, compensation incentive plans 346 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,900 that produce certain outcomes that are entirely at odds with 347 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:24,500 this this unified approach that you're describing and so 348 00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:28,000 building on our salons question. How do we, how do we bring the 349 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,300 pieces together? Every company needs a North star 350 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:35,600 and some strategic pillars. And I find companies are 351 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,100 generally pretty good at that. So to use an example, when I 352 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:42,000 arrived at McDonald's, And we can talk about my transition 353 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,100 from Amazon to McDonald's but the, you know, the idea was 354 00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:49,600 okay, digital transformation. But people didn't know what that 355 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,100 was. So I didn't you really use that 356 00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:53,900 term? I talked about convenience 357 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,500 because in my mind McDonald's for over 60 years has been about 358 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:03,300 3, things taste value and convenience, and I got a lot of 359 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,300 nodding heads when I spoke in that, and that way, And then I 360 00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:12,800 talked about reimagining convenience and you ways to use 361 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,000 McDonald's because there were a couple ways to get your food 362 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,000 from McDonald's. And how about, we invent a 363 00:22:18,008 --> 00:22:20,000 couple more we've been so successful. 364 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,500 If we invented a couple more compelling easy, convenient ways 365 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:27,200 to use McDonald's, you know, could we grow the company and 366 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,600 people understood that line of thinking? 367 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,600 So the first point I think is a company needs a North star. 368 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,800 It needs some strategic pillars and needs to be in A language. 369 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,400 So it's not about lingo, it's more about the heritage of the 370 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,200 company but reimagining it in the modern sense, that that 371 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,300 makes sense. And so I doubled down on 372 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:54,000 convenience and then I could talk in detail about the more 373 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,900 lingo like we need to new service models. 374 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,400 These service models need to be technology-enabled, they will be 375 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,500 digital experiences for the customer and in order and in the 376 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:09,400 process. Providing this, you know, next 377 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,700 level convenience through digital experiences, we're going 378 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:14,800 to become a direct-to-consumer company. 379 00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:19,500 We're going to have a lot of profiles and data and be able to 380 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:22,700 be personalized with each customer and and that's sort of 381 00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:24,100 a business model shipped as well. 382 00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:29,600 So the digital experience for the customers for the customers 383 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,900 shifting to a different way of looking at the business. 384 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,700 So now you have a cohesive sort of strategic right now, that's 385 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:39,900 not part. It is within my arrival at 386 00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:41,700 McDonald's. That took me about 45 days to 387 00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:45,100 put together that together, the rest of the years were about 388 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,800 making it real. And so that's where we come to 389 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,700 the actual Transformations. That, you know, that are a part 390 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:57,400 of this question which is essentially that, you know, any 391 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,000 given idea, okay? Curbside pickup at McDonald's. 392 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,000 You just drive into a parking spot of your food is brought out 393 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,500 to you, or let's say table service which is basically you 394 00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:11,000 order a Kiosk take a seat and we bring the tray to you to new 395 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,400 ways to use. McDonald's didn't exist before. 396 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:17,000 There's a lot of hairy things that need to be thought through. 397 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,400 So it's not easy to know exactly what the execution plan would 398 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,700 be. That's where this idea of 399 00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:27,600 Upstream work creates the space for teams to. 400 00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,900 It's okay for them not to know the answers to questions in the 401 00:24:31,908 --> 00:24:33,800 beginning. As long as they know, the right 402 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,500 questions, they should be exploring. 403 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,500 And then if they drive that, At through a method of of, you 404 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:44,600 know, exploration Discovery where we can have them draw the 405 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,200 right conclusions and be convinced about the things that 406 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,300 are recommending, that's the way to make the glue. 407 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,200 And of course, when it comes to corners of the company, some 408 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,400 folks are more on the day-to-day, but they also need 409 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:00,800 to contribute because they have good input. 410 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,400 So I would recommend saying hey you know percentage of your time 411 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,200 goes to helping us innovate because Aviation is kind of in 412 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,200 some respect, everyone can contribute to it. 413 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:17,600 We hear people talk about Clarity of goals and use, you 414 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,700 will spoke about that earlier. Would it be accurate to say, 415 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:28,400 based on your comments, that Simplicity of goal is also 416 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,400 crucially important here? I think 100%, I mean, it needs 417 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,200 to be conversational. So if I walk in an elevator with 418 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,800 a normal person is not in the company. 419 00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:41,900 Honey, I can explain where our organization is headed, and that 420 00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:44,900 could be, you know, like I said, convenience in the case of 421 00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:49,100 McDonald's that could be in the case of Volvo that, you know, a 422 00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:53,400 car and all the tech in the car, from the Safety Systems to the 423 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,800 infotainment to the cloud, controlling my car, through my 424 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,300 app, you know, it's it needs to be easy easy-to-use and simplify 425 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:06,400 your life, you know, you need to be able to explain that. 426 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,100 High-level direction would supposedly but I have one point 427 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:14,600 to make around goals which is that companies are pretty good 428 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,400 at setting goals and objectives and you have ideas like okay 429 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,500 ours but those are incomplete because if you look at okay are 430 00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:27,500 you have the 0? Which is the objective and then 431 00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:32,300 the result which is all the way down here but in the middle it's 432 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:36,800 a lot of hard hard work and so team spend weeks and months. 433 00:26:36,900 --> 00:26:39,200 Figuring out. How do you convert this 434 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,700 objective into a concrete initiative and what's the nature 435 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:46,100 of that initiative and all the Contours of that initiative? 436 00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:50,500 And what are we actually going to execute in order to achieve 437 00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,300 that result? And that's that's where I focus 438 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:59,700 and I guess my overall point is that, that is where we need, not 439 00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:02,300 just the clarity of the goal, but we need the clarity of 440 00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:06,400 thinking and the clarity of thought How do we actually 441 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:11,200 develop this idea? You know, across, you know, in 442 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,300 all and every different Contour of this idea? 443 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:16,100 That's, that's the hard part in my view. 444 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,700 But when we talk about the goals and simple goals, and 445 00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,700 conversational goals, and that's just great advice for anybody, 446 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,000 and really, really hard to do to distill down and come up with 447 00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:30,500 the concept, the right concept, the simple concept. 448 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:33,800 And then the right words, the simple conversational words 449 00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:38,700 around that But in a large company even getting folks to 450 00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:44,200 agree on the goal is sometimes in almost impossible feat to 451 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,800 accomplish. And so in your experience, 452 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,900 you've had these very diverse set of senior management 453 00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:54,400 positions. How did you do that? 454 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,300 How did you how did you heard these cats is my view that 455 00:27:58,300 --> 00:28:01,500 people, you have a very hard time getting people to agree on 456 00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:07,800 the solution generally like They agree with the North Star. 457 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,900 I mean, let's say your MGM Resorts and you do a great job 458 00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:15,000 of catering to people who gamble, but then you realize, 459 00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:18,300 well, there are a lot of people who open up the wallet and they 460 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:23,000 don't gamble they go and attend shows, they spent a lot on very 461 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,500 nice restaurants, they buy sweets and hotels. 462 00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:30,300 There's a lot of big-ticket spending going on, but those 463 00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:32,500 people don't Gamble and we don't do a great job. 464 00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:34,800 I'm just rolling back a couple years ago to coming in. 465 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,000 Progressed a lot, but we weren't doing a great job of being 466 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,400 customer-oriented, treating them, you know that are 467 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,800 recognizing them being, you know, generating a loyalty and 468 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,200 rewards for them. For example. 469 00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:51,600 So generally, I think people agree though, that's the Gap, 470 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,300 that's where the growth is going to be the objective is to really 471 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,100 grow that part of the business, okay? 472 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:03,800 Fine, and the solution is where people, you know, well, this one 473 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,300 work, or that's too. Our door. 474 00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:07,200 This is the right solution, etc, etc. 475 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,000 That I think is very hard and companies so the way to herd the 476 00:29:11,008 --> 00:29:16,400 cats is I think to see really what I'm pushing is the idea of 477 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:22,200 suspending judgment you know creating a space and actual 478 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:27,100 space in it, actual workflow to do something like exploration. 479 00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:31,400 So in my case, if a team came to me and said we have the big 480 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400 idea, we don't know what the solution are done. 481 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,100 A nation is yet. We don't have the plan to xq 482 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:41,100 yet, but we're going to spend one or two weeks, and we're 483 00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:44,600 going to build an exploration. We're going to get input from 484 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,000 the right. You know rains in the company. 485 00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:50,900 We're going to make a list of all the right questions and 486 00:29:50,900 --> 00:29:52,900 we're going to start with these questions and that the end of 487 00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:57,700 this week or two we're going to deliver to you an FAQ and and 488 00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:01,400 that's really going to help us begin to kind of converge are 489 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,100 thinking on what actually makes sense in terms of That the 490 00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:08,100 solution we need to go after I would say that's a really good 491 00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:11,200 use of time and I would support them and that's why I'm 492 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,300 advising, you know, generally speaking is that we create a 493 00:30:15,300 --> 00:30:20,500 space for to build and run explorations to feed. 494 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:24,300 The alignment is necessary in companies in order for something 495 00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:28,000 to actually happen. To be explicit at the outset 496 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:34,000 that there are things, we don't know, and stop the posturing and 497 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,300 the Means that we are the Masters of the Universe who know 498 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:42,100 everything to be explicit about that, and build that build that 499 00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:44,000 time and capability in essentially is what you're 500 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,300 saying, 100%. I think we're all part of the 501 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:51,100 problem as my overall point, because we like to blame the 502 00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:54,400 person who says, I've been here 30 years and I know that won't 503 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,000 work and we know that's not the right answer either, but as a 504 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000 very Innovative person or the person brought into in it, help 505 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,100 a company innovate. I've been part of the problem 506 00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:06,000 too because I said, well, No, I've said the opposite. 507 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,700 I said, no that's a wonderful idea. 508 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:11,400 Let's, let's start concepting, and prototyping, and let's get 509 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,500 10 people on this right now and start to test it and experiment, 510 00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:18,500 and let's just get going. And sometimes, that's not also 511 00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:24,400 the right answer because you, you need to be explicit around, 512 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:28,100 you know, more purposeful around what you're experimenting 513 00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:30,100 around. It's not just about getting 514 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:34,300 started with the prototyping and the experimentation it's about 515 00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:43,200 We need to learn and making the experiments based on the gaps 516 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,400 and the unknowns that would help us be much smarter about things. 517 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,600 So, I think whether you're you lean towards Innovation or lean 518 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,800 towards like business as usual, you know, we need we need a way 519 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:02,500 that's kind of mitigating. Some of the, you know, the 520 00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:04,700 downside of both approaches are salon. 521 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,100 Khan comes back with another great question and I'm Our Salon 522 00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:13,800 listens a lot and I'm afraid that our two minds are sort of 523 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,900 becoming very similar because I love this that the questions he 524 00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:20,600 asked, sometimes it's like, oh yeah, I should be asking that. 525 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,800 Okay, so he says this great question. 526 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:29,400 He says, why should a front line employee be involved in 527 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:33,600 Innovation after all? They don't get incentivised. 528 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,900 Nor are they? Eat enough to do this. 529 00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:40,700 Executives might care about Innovation because ultimately 530 00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:44,100 that's going to be connected to their performance and their 531 00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:46,800 compensation. But why should Frontline 532 00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:48,800 employees care about this at all? 533 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,200 It's like you know, just I'm serving hamburgers or whatever 534 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,300 it is that I'm doing just leave me alone so I can do my job. 535 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,300 Usually, we have interfaces to the from lightworkers so it's 536 00:32:58,300 --> 00:33:00,800 not like you put a front light worker in your, you know, your 537 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,100 Innovation squad, or your strategic initiative team or 538 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,200 anything like that. But I mean, you typically have, 539 00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:11,800 you know, some field level manager, old people who are 540 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,600 listening and have a pulse of, you know, what the front line, 541 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,900 you know, workers seeing with customers. 542 00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:20,300 And so, that's what I'm assuming. 543 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,300 So, really, my book, and my ideas, and my background, quite 544 00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:28,800 frankly is really more for knowledge workers, you know, in 545 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,400 different corners of the company, they could be 546 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,100 incorporated, they could be in the field, but they're generally 547 00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:38,700 knowledge workers. Who are ya trying to figure out 548 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,200 what makes sense for the business and for customers. 549 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,400 So I'm not suggesting that you know, the from length will be 550 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,100 part of that Innovation Squad here presenting to the CEO. 551 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:53,800 But of course they have you'll see some patterns in what 552 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,300 they're what they're sharing and I think those things are 553 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:02,900 obviously need to feed it into things but you know it's a guy 554 00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:05,900 like the question because I think Too often. 555 00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,900 If you had a project in a company, what happens? 556 00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:13,000 Well, it's the same three or four people that you're meeting 557 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,900 with every week or every month about the idea. 558 00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:19,400 And then you think, well, this organization is 40,000. 559 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,900 People are 10,000 people or 2,000 people. 560 00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:25,900 There's got to be more input than just these three or four 561 00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:28,500 people. I think that's important in 562 00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:32,600 companies is finding a way to say, okay, what are we not 563 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,699 seeing that someone in this company? 564 00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:40,500 You might might be seeing there has to be a way to do that and I 565 00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:45,300 think a way to encourage getting that input is curiosity is an 566 00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:49,100 obsession for input and and if you accept that as an 567 00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:53,400 expectation, then there are probably ways to to kind of get 568 00:34:53,699 --> 00:34:57,500 to to get your hands on it. It strikes me and maybe this is 569 00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:02,700 an obvious point but it strikes me that to do what you're 570 00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:07,000 describing. Choirs, the senior leaders to 571 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,400 actually have an interest in change, in this kind of 572 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,900 exploration. It helps a lot, but it's not 573 00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:17,400 required. Because and here's why it's not 574 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,600 required. Because typically the 575 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,600 interaction with senior Executives is on some Cadence it 576 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,800 all Bi weekly check-in or a that we gave you the assignment. 577 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,000 For the big idea, come back in a month and tell us how we should 578 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,500 be thinking about this. You know what, you're 579 00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:37,800 recommending so that Executives, probably are not involved in the 580 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,600 brainstorms, the Deep Dives, you know, the work, the team level 581 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,800 work. So what I'm suggesting and I 582 00:35:43,808 --> 00:35:49,600 write about this in the book is that teams as opposed to having 583 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,500 unstructured, deep, Dives and rainstorms and and then you know 584 00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:57,700 it's three days before the meeting and that we're not 585 00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:00,200 really clear like what we're going to put on the table, you 586 00:36:00,207 --> 00:36:04,600 know, bring some approach to it like like decision Sprint. 587 00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:09,800 And now in the end, what the executives will see, is the 588 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,100 content, which is essentially, mmm. 589 00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:14,800 I'm able to follow where you started. 590 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,000 What? You investigated the 591 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,600 conclusions, you drew the recommendations you're putting 592 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,200 on table based on those recommendations. 593 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,800 Here's the commitments and actions to company needs to take 594 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,400 on and whether that's great or not great I think they'd be able 595 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,600 to follow it. And so the way you drive change, 596 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:41,000 Team level up bottom up, is by just producing that better 597 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,400 having that better interaction that better content. 598 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,000 Then what happens is the executive Satan? 599 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,300 This is so much more streamlined than my last meeting. 600 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,200 What did this team do different? And they'll say, you know, we 601 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,900 have a different methodology. Like we actually have brought 602 00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:02,600 some method to the chaos and and Executives will be like wait, we 603 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,400 should apply that to other things, we're working on. 604 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,500 So that's That's the way to help Drive change in a company. 605 00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:09,900 I believe that change can absolutely be bottom up. 606 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,900 The senior leadership is really interested in seeing results, 607 00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:19,900 and if you can demonstrate any kind of result, interim results 608 00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:26,000 included than a smart, senior leader is going to take that 609 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,700 ball and carry it or suggest that you take that ball and and 610 00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:32,400 run with it. Further if we Define result is 611 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,700 basically your work product. Is easier to follow and allows 612 00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:40,800 for confident decision-making that I've you're making the life 613 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,500 of an executive so much easier because the job is very hard 614 00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:49,100 decisions are very hard to make. It cannot predict the future, 615 00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:53,100 but if you can help the organization stand, on much 616 00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:56,000 higher quality, ground of information or confident 617 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,800 decision-making, you've really, really helped your company and a 618 00:37:59,808 --> 00:38:03,400 good executive will say how how are you approaching that? 619 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,800 And how can we scale better? Across more of the organization 620 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,900 and then also it shifts. The role of the executive, the 621 00:38:11,908 --> 00:38:16,600 executives tend to then give space and release a control 622 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,700 orientation. And then moved to what I call 623 00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:24,700 calibration over control. And what I mean by that is they 624 00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:27,900 help become a thought. Partner in your work, it'll tell 625 00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:33,200 you what to do and they don't, they are much better listeners 626 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,600 and they help calibrate your thinking. 627 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:42,000 To improve it but they don't don't go back and regress to the 628 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,100 tendency of saying, this is what I want the answer to, because 629 00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:47,300 that's always going to be very risky. 630 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,200 Even if someone is senior in a company for one person to be 631 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,300 saying this is the right answer is very dangerous. 632 00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:59,100 That's why we have teams that if we are almost out of time, can 633 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:04,300 you share advice for I'm thinking that maybe specifically 634 00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:08,100 for a Two different roles. Starting with the CIO, you were 635 00:39:08,300 --> 00:39:11,200 a Chief Information officer so you have so you understand that 636 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,500 role? Certainly can you can you share 637 00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:18,600 your advice given all of this for cios the CIO months, one of 638 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:23,900 my roles, always shifted the conversation to be, you know, 639 00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:27,200 not just having the it organization. 640 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,500 I rebranded it as Enterprise digital, not just be an order 641 00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:35,700 taker, be like a true bona fide partner in Thinking things 642 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:41,500 through, but for any role in an organization, I think the the 643 00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:46,000 what good looks like to me is basically the engine behind the 644 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,000 work and embracing the idea of exploration before alignment, 645 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,000 you know, getting people to postpone judgment, not Russia 646 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,100 had to sing. This is the answer, this is the 647 00:39:56,100 --> 00:40:03,300 solution and to really invite people to to really do The 648 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:06,100 Upfront Discovery around. And what could go wrong? 649 00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:09,900 What are the right questions? How do we give team space just a 650 00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:13,400 week or two? To get to the bottom of these 651 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,100 questions and then use something like even if they cues help 652 00:40:18,100 --> 00:40:21,400 drive, you know, some common understanding of the Strategic 653 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,000 Direction. So whether it's a CIO or any 654 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,100 other role, I think that's really what, you know, being a 655 00:40:27,107 --> 00:40:32,000 senior leader is all about, is being able to kind of direct the 656 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000 collective intelligence of the team. 657 00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:40,400 The right kind of brain trust and give them the space to do 658 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,700 these things and then help calibrate their ideas because 659 00:40:43,700 --> 00:40:46,900 you probably see more information in your higher level 660 00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:50,100 role if that makes sense. So, it's more of the workflow. 661 00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:53,200 I like to think of the next big role in the company. 662 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,500 In fact, the role of the CEO, I think in the future is the chief 663 00:40:57,500 --> 00:41:02,200 workflow officer. And because if you can get the 664 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,700 workflow right around How people progress ideas and plans and 665 00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:09,100 actions? Then, you know, you are really 666 00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:12,300 really helping the company. Then why don't we finish up with 667 00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:20,900 advice to CEOs on managing being aware of encouraging? 668 00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:25,500 This Upstream work, the CEO. Basically you have the North 669 00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:27,300 Star. You have the Strategic pillars. 670 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,300 Your you're putting this in front of Wall Street, it's in 671 00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:34,100 all your board decks, you know, we get it, but we all know that. 672 00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:36,300 Inside the four walls of the company. 673 00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:39,700 You know, these initiatives are very hard. 674 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,900 They're very complex and it's not obvious what needs to be 675 00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:47,100 done? And so if we want momentum, you 676 00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:51,500 know, the idea of building a sequence, like, if you have a 677 00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:55,000 big initiative, we would your team in three steps. 678 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,800 You know, the first meeting is the messiness, like you 679 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,400 mentioned Scott spoke, okay? Share with me all the messiness. 680 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,300 I don't need any any Others. We're not deciding anything 681 00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:10,000 that's going to come later, but show me you did a good job of 682 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,800 canvassing, the messiness that's progress in it of itself. 683 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,900 Your second meaning, you got to the bottom of the messiness. 684 00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:20,500 Did you make sense of it? Give me one or two, or three or 685 00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:24,800 four conclusions, you're drawing from having gone deep into this 686 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:30,000 messiness, on the deep end. And then number three, like now, 687 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,700 what is the solution? What is the direction? 688 00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:36,900 Because if you do it, if You orchestrated in that way. 689 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,600 You have fewer blind spots, fewer surprises. 690 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:44,100 You've done the best job you can is as Executives. 691 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,500 We are responsible to be on top of the nodes and the known 692 00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:53,200 unknowns. If there's anything else, you 693 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,700 know, we don't predict the future, but those first two, 694 00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:57,500 we've got to get them. Right? 695 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,200 We have to be on top of them. And we have to be able to 696 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,500 connect them to the actions, the company's going to proceed with. 697 00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:06,700 So I think these three steps Oops could be a good use of time 698 00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:08,200 for everybody. Great. 699 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,900 Well thank you for the insightful advice and with that, 700 00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:15,100 we're out of time. So I want to say a huge. 701 00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:19,600 Thank you to Chief Rafiq. Thank you for being with us 702 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,500 today. I really appreciate it. 703 00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:23,500 It's been a pleasure being with you Michael. 704 00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:28,500 Thank you so much and huge. Thanks to everybody who watched 705 00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:32,400 you guys are a great audience and don't forget, please 706 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,900 subscribe to our Our newsletter, hit the Subscribe button on our 707 00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:41,200 website and you can subscribe to our YouTube channel, check out 708 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,100 cxo talk.com. We have amazing shows coming up 709 00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:46,900 during the summer. Our newsletter will notify you 710 00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:48,900 of all of them. Thanks so much everybody. 711 00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:51,000 I hope you have a great day and we'll see you again next time 712 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:51,600 next week.