To the Vet files. Today, Mckaylan and I are with
Doctor Audrey to Clue. She is an equine sports medicine
veterinarian, graduate of Ross University of Veterinary
Medicine, and the host of the Horse First Podcast, a widely
respected equine podcast focused on mystery and unsolved lameness
cases. Through her work in clinical
practice and podcasting, Dr. De Clue focuses on understanding
the why behind performance problems rather than isolating a
single sore limb. Her approach challenges
traditional sports menace by emphasizing whole horse
diagnostics, pain recognition, and the overlap between
neurologic, musculoskeletal, and biomechanical dysfunction.
Thank you so much, Doctor de Clue for joining us.
You're welcome. Happy to be here.
Yes. I'd love to start off with
asking more about your background so you often describe
it as untraditional. I'd love to hear more.
Well, I think it is. It's very untraditional.
Became a veterinarian at 41 years old.
I'm almost 60 years old right now.
I just, I was an athlete. I worked in different
manufacturing job for Archer Daniels Midland after I stopped
being an athlete and then I became a journeyman lineman
where, you know, you climb poles and do high voltage electricity.
And I was a blue collar worker, just strictly a blue collar
worker out there in the trenches, working storms, ice
storms, hurricanes, tornadoes out there, putting people's
power back on, building tower lines, highline residential
stuff, you know, So it gave me a different perspective about how
to solve problems because if your power goes out, we can't
just walk up and say, sorry, we can't figure out how to get your
power back on. So see you later, you know, like
call somebody else, you know, maybe they can figure it out.
It doesn't work that way. As a blue collar worker, you
have to solve the problem. If you call a plumber to your
house, they will figure out the problem.
You might not like the price for it or you might not that like
the fact they might have to tear a bunch of stuff out, but
they'll solve your problem. And I have that mindset the same
way with with horses is I have an education.
And if you know your education and you know you use your
education and if you don't know the answer, then you keep
researching until you find a solution to the problem.
Sometimes you don't know the answer.
Do you know what's causing it? But you can at least find a
solution to the problem that works.
So I think for me, that's why I'm very different on how I
approach everything instead of how they teach you guys in
veterinary school. Like step one, Step 2, Step 3,
like all these steps, these rule outs, you're not thinking of
application, you're just thinking of, OK, I have this
list. Once I'm done with that list,
sorry, you know, you guys are experiencing it right now.
You're going to throw 90% of it out.
I hate to say that it's true. I think the way that they're
teaching is better today. But I also think that you guys
need to start hands on like I did as an apprentice lineman,
you're out in the field all the time learning, and then you
understand what to prioritize and then you're in class, right?
And you have to get through your education and then you go back
out in the field and you learn. And many people would not become
a veterinarian if they really understood, you know, in and day
out. And we'll get to that topic too.
But there's a lot to this. And it's not just loving
animals. You have to have the right
personality and stuff to be able to make it.
So I'm not the typical veterinarian.
I don't think like a veterinarian.
I, I'm not like you guys. They're teaching you how to be
a, to think like a veterinarian. I do not think like a
veterinarian at all. I think just like a blue collar
worker. And I think that if they would
teach people to be more like, think like a blue collar worker,
I think things would be a lot better as far as you guys coming
out and being able to just do the job, you know.
Yeah, You mentioned. So what made you.
That's a drastic career change. What made you think like, OK, I
want to get into veterinary medicine.
Did you think I'm going to go be a vet tech and then go to vet
school? Or what was that like?
So the truth is the safest guy I ever knew got killed, a
journeyman lineman, His name's Phil Edwards.
Safest guy ever knew got killed. And it changed me.
It like, rocked my world. I knew his daughter played
basketball. It helped train, you know, like
all these things and I wasn't the safest.
I mean, I took risk and I just knew that if he got killed, I
was going to I definitely was going to die as a lineman.
It's one of the most dangerous jobs in the world.
But I think that I had to I like had to re evaluate myself and go
what do I really want to do for a living?
So I quit being a lineman and I became like an assistant
technician at the University of Minnesota.
I was one of Doctor Tracy Turner's technicians at the
University of Minnesota, and I was just his runner.
Like I knew nothing. Understand.
I mean, I'm farm, I understand farms.
I don't understand animals and all that stuff.
And I could step into it and I'm a hard worker.
Like there's nobody that can outwork me.
And so I just learned and I realized, you know, I didn't
think I was smart enough to be honest with you.
I honestly did not, I think I was smart enough to be a
veterinarian. And when I got working as a, as
a technician, I realized, wow, these people are really smart,
but they're not common sense has gone out.
Like I don't know where the common sense is, but it, it's
somewhere not in this building, you know, like it's so out of
the building. I don't even know where the
building is that has it. But we're on a whole big campus.
Hopefully there's a building there that has a common sense
sign in front of it. We all need to take these
people, transplant them to the common sense building there we
might solve some problems, right?
It's the truth. But anyways, that's what made me
and then I, I applied to get into my grades weren't good
enough. I was a jock.
You know what jock is athlete. I think I graduated from college
with I would have had probably a 1.85 GPA, like 2 point.
I was lucky, maybe a 2.1 literally I'm serious.
So you know, I didn't think I was that smart.
I'm really not that smart. I just have a lot of common
sense and I have, I can solve problems.
So don't feel like don't it's OK if you feel like you don't know
anything. I feel like that all the time.
And I think it's a healthy thing not to feel like you know
anything. You know, like you guys are
going through that process right now where you're like, Oh my
God, how am I going to learn all this?
Is it important? Is it not important?
Don't worry about that. Just get through it.
Just do what you're told, go along with it to get along like
you just got to go along to get along right now.
Just do it, play the game, go along to get along.
But afterwards, then you can start pushing whatever limits
you want with yourself and whatever you want to learn.
You know, that's the real truth and that's why, you know, I,
I've seen all sides of this and, and I think that you guys just
have to have a positive attitude, even when you get all
stress and you're like, Oh my God, I got an exam tomorrow and
I got to know all this stuff. Just know what you can know.
Just, you know, don't procrastinate.
You got to study every single night, right?
Don't put it off. It just sucks.
It just sucks, but you'll be OK. But I'm not the traditional, you
know, I, I just approach things differently and you're not going
to, you're going to find your own way.
That's one thing I can tell you. What advice would you give to
students that are interested in equine sports medicine or just
the equine field in general? Because I think the most
unattractive thing about the equine field that I hear a lot
is the pay. So I don't know any advice.
It's a really good question. I think the biggest flaw of what
has transpired is the biggest flaw of equine veterinarians.
That's why we can't find equine veterinarians, you know, and I'm
going to be honest, I'm just an honest person.
This is my perspective, my opinion, but I'm also an
outsider to this profession. So I see things as an outsider.
I haven't. You guys are going, you're going
to be ingrained into a culture that I know I'm not part of that
culture at all because I was older when I went to veterinary
school. You were younger.
So they couldn't ingrain me in that mindset, right?
There is no changing my mindset. I think the most important thing
is that you need to know horses. You need to know how to ride
horses. You need to know how to groom
them. You need to have horse
experience. If you do not, it's OK.
But you need to understand that if you don't, it's the mistake
that we've gotten into with the equine profession is if you
don't know how to ride a horse, then a trainer is telling you
what's wrong if you don't even understand what they're saying.
It's like a foreign language. If you can't ride, you need to
learned to ride. If you don't know how to groom a
horse, then you need to learn how to groom a horse.
If you don't understand horses at all, stand on the road
watching a pasture of horses. You need to understand your
patient before you can even think that you're going to step
into a sports medicine world where you're dealing with
trainers and riders and people that do know these things.
But the mistake here's just a little pet peeve of mine.
I cannot believe that veterinarians who ride, people
that ride like veterinarians that truly ride have not solved
these problems that do not talk about body lameness, that do not
have not solved these problems. I'm not the first veterinarian
that has ever ridden a horse or driven a horse.
So how is it possible that I've figured out all this stuff and
all these veterinarians, hundreds of thousands of equine
veterinarians that came before me have not solved these
problems? How is it possible?
Now, that's the real question, right?
And I think it goes back to mindset.
It is how I think, how I approach problems and how I look
at a problem is different. And so any person thinking about
being an equine veterinarian, it's a tough world, but it's
only tough. It's tough.
You have to be mentally like you got to you got to be able to
take criticism right. You got to walk into a barn.
And this happens to me, a trader I work for.
She is awesome because she never remembers when like she always
forgets if the horses better. Like I can ask her, hey, how's
blah, blah, blah. And she's like, oh, this.
I didn't know there was a problem.
But if I walk in the bar and I'm like, hey, how's Harry?
And she's like, she'll just lay into me like he's not better.
But you know, like I can't stand the right brain.
I can't. You know, I'm like, OK, well, I
suck. You got to embrace the suck, you
know, like you're going to suck. It's OK, you're going to miss
things. It's OK, you're going to suck.
People are going to say this ain't any better.
But The thing is, you got to look at yourself and you got to
go. What am I missing, Right?
And I think that's the most important thing.
And it's OK if you don't know. If you don't know, you just say,
I don't know. And I say that all the time.
I videotape every single day of my life, and I say it a lot.
I don't know. What are we going to do?
I don't know. Like, I just go with the flow.
I have an idea in my brain, I see the problem, but sometimes I
don't know what the problem is. And we got to go through all
these things to figure out what is really the problem.
And most of the time I there's not just one problem to me, it's
all connected. And so I'm dealing with
variations of problems. And so that's where I realized
you can't just have one thing. It's all connected.
If there's a chip, yeah, you can go in there and take the chip
out, no problem. You know, easy peasy.
But to become an equine veterinarian, you have to know
what it feels like like to ride. You need to know what it's like
to drive a horse. You need to really, and you got
to be a strong kind of personality where you have
boundaries. There's a big problem in the
equine world where ethics and morals and money, I mean, there
is so much money involved. That's the thing.
There's so much money involved and that gets in the way of
people doing the right thing and it's something people don't talk
about. I talk about it because I'm an
outsider to this profession. I see the dysfunction.
You're making money and the trainers telling you what to do
and they're winning and your name is on those horses that are
winning. And you're not going to say no
to, you know, a $300,000 a year account, right?
Even though you know it's unethical, even though you know
the horse doesn't need it, even though you know, like, it's all
these things, right? And I like you guys as a younger
generation because you're going to say no, I love you guys.
I love you guys because you're going to say no, no #1 you're
not going to talk to me that way, right?
Our generation is very good at that.
Like no is a full sentence. We will not suffer the way other
people did. I don't believe that people have
to suffer in order to earn their position like that.
Or respect or respect. That should be out in the window
like Treat me well from. The beginning, right?
Look what I did as a woman lineman, right?
I dealt with more stuff than most people would ever be able
to deal with. But I also believe, here's the
other thing. If I couldn't do the job, I
didn't belong to be out there. And that's the real truth.
I did not, I don't blame the guys.
I, I did not blame the guys. If I couldn't pull my weight, if
I couldn't pick up anything that they could pick up, if I
couldn't rescue a £300 guy off of a pole, if I could not do the
job, I did not belong out there. And the same thing goes with
equine. If you physically cannot do the
job, you should not be out there.
You need to workout, you need to get into shape.
You got to be strong and you got to be agile because these horses
will hurt you and they don't mean to hurt you.
They're going to hurt you because they're painful.
And that's The thing is there's so many aspects to this, but I,
I love you guys as a younger generation because I agree with
you. Like I paid the dues for women
lineman. I'm the one I was strong enough
to deal with all that. I still am.
That's why I don't really care. I never care about what people
think of me. I know I'm a wonderful person.
I'm willing to help anyone do do anything.
You know, you stop by my farm, I'll stop whatever I'm doing.
We'll hang out, whatever I'll cook.
I don't care. I I don't being treating people
with respect. And you know, that's important
and you guys deserve that, but you also have to you have to
work hard. Like that's The thing is, you
know, a lot of people want an easy peasy ride, but it's not
like that. If you're going to choose
equine, you're going to be out there late some nights because
the trainer is going to accept that you're going to go home at
5:00. They're like more horses, man,
Right? Sorry.
Speaking of which, too, I wanted to ask you about working with
trainers. Ethics can get muddy.
What cases did you have or was there?
What case did you have that started horse first?
Or what experience with veterinarians started the horse
first movement that you've had? Well, I'll be honest with you.
Do you want to know? It started it.
This is the truth. I was so PO D at the veterinary
profession with the 2015 paper that came out that put the
association that shivers is associated with cerebellar
lesions in the Perkinje cells or whatever deep central nuclei in
the cerebellum. And it was actually a
veterinarian. This is the story I was looking
at. I've never told the story out
loud. So I'm going to tell you guys as
veterinary students so that you guys can understand the things
that the egos and equine the like.
All the stupid stuff that like you say, people don't treat each
other with respect and we wonder why people don't want to go in
this profession. There's a lot of positive to it
too. But I was going to look at a
horse for a pre purchase for a client of mine.
I didn't know the horse had shivers.
The trainer I work for didn't know it had shivers, but it was
price said something like 750,000.
And at that time for a meter, fifty horses like 1.31 point, 4
million to buy get a horse that jumped a meter 50.
OK, so we were there. We're looking at the horse and I
got introduced to the trainer through my, the trainer I work
for. And I said, you know, she said
why is this horse still cheap? It's got a great record.
And he said, well, the horse has shivers and I'm like, it was
December 22nd, 2015. Actually, I have a medical
record on it. That's how I know.
And so I'm like, I just walk over to the horse and picked up
its right hind leg and she shivered.
Really good abduction. And then I picked up the left
hind. It wasn't too bad.
So I looked at the trainer. I'm like 3-4 treatments.
It'll be good. Jump a meter 60 and she was
like, cool, you know, So and then the trainer, the other
trainer who looked at me really strange and I looked at him
really strange. I'm like I said, has your
veterinarian treated the horse for Shivers?
And he goes, you can treat shivers.
I'm like, well, have they treated it?
And he goes, I don't know, she's on the other aisle.
So we walked through this fancy dancy barn with all these
chandeliers and all this stuff. And I, I go to the other side
and she's there injecting horses and I'm tall and she's kind of
like this height to me. And so my, the trainer I work
for introduces me to her. This is my veterinarian, Audrey.
I'm dreadlock tattoos. You know, I'm dressed like a
regular person, blue collar worker.
And I said, what horse? I looked at the other trainer
who's there and he says blah blah blah, mayor.
And I said, well, what have you done with her?
And she goes, well, I injected the coffins, the stifle, Hawks
and the F side. And I said like, literally, I
knew nothing. I said, well, did you treat the
horse for shivers? And she looked at me like I was
a complete idiot. Like literally she folded her
arms and said Stephanie Valberg published a paper blah blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. December 2020 fifth 15.
Sorry. And I'm like, OK, that's right
now 2015 And she gave me the title divers associated with
blah, blah, blah. And then she said for Kenji cell
and I'm like, what in the world is that?
You know, here's my brain. What is that?
And then she said deep central nuclei, like she tied up
randomly said the whole paper entitled, you know, I'm like, Oh
my God, she's so much smarter than I am, but who cares?
So the deep central nuclei came out.
And then she said the word cerebellum.
And I was like, there's a word I know.
OK. And then she I said, I'm like, I
don't care. Like whatever paper came out.
And then she said, but I knew what cerebellum was.
And she leaned into me with her arms crossed, literally leaned
into me. And I thought, I mean, I'm being
a lineman at this point. I'm thinking I'm so going to
head bite you if you get closer, right?
Like I'm, I'm just honest. And she leaned into me and she
said, and if you were a doctor, you would know that if it's in
their cerebellum, there is no treatment.
And I'm like, I turn, I almost run over the trainer.
I can see the horse out in the arena.
I'm not serious. This is how it started.
I just walk and the trainer comes running up and she tells
the story actually better than I do.
And she she runs up and she goes, holy, I can't believe you
didn't punch her. And I said, if I was a lineman,
I probably would have, but I'm a veterinarian, so I have to be
more responsible about my actions.
And then here's the other trainer running up and then and
the trainer's getting on the the mirror and he runs up and he
goes, are you serious? You can treat shivers.
And I look, I turn to him because I'm mad.
Like I'm like, who are you to get up in my face and treat me
like I'm a stupid idiot? I mean, these are my thought
process going through my brain. And I turned to him and I said,
why would I say I could do something that can?
I said to the trader, how many of these horses have we had?
And we fixed. She goes, well, that's why I was
6 or 7. They're all great.
And he goes, Oh my God, would you treat this horse?
And I got another one in the barn that I can't sell because
it's got shivers really bad. And I said to him, I turned to
him directly right to his face. And I said, I am so sorry for
these horses, but why don't you go talk to your academic vet and
let her figure it out. That's literally how it all
started that I know you think about this, you guys, This is
why I'm telling you this story is because I went home, it was
late. I called a friend of mine that
works out of Washington State, Kathy St.
No, she did the research with me.
I said what in the world is this stupid paper?
And she said we had it in book club and we threw it out saying
there is no way that anyone is going to believe that a
cerebellar lesion is associated with shivers clinical signs.
Well, guess what? The whole equine veterinary
world adopted that. Over 5 cases and I couldn't
help, I couldn't have that happening.
And literally that's is why I started the podcast.
That is exactly why I started the podcast and I realized I was
doing things that nobody else was doing.
I didn't know this, you guys. I honestly did not know that no
other veterinarian in the world was treating sugars until that
day, December 22nd, 2015 out number one, there's a lot wrong
here, right? How other veterinarians treat
people, right? Equine veterinarians treat each
other how veterinarians treat each other, period.
It goes back to I love you guys as a younger generation, but
this is what you get yourself into with the equine world.
People don't play nice because there's a lot of money involved
and we should be helping each other.
But that's what started literally, that is exactly what
started all of this. Somebody getting up in my face
and telling me if I was a doctor, knowing full well I was
pretty much calling me an idiot, right?
So you don't do that to someone like me because I'm going to
prove you wrong. You know, I just don't.
And that honestly, I'm so I have to be honest with you.
I'm so grateful to that person. I actually know who she is now.
I didn't know for I only found out like a couple years ago.
I don't really care. It doesn't matter to me.
I'm so grateful to that person. Do you know why?
Because she made me a better veterinarian.
So there's a lot of good coming out of this story.
I am so glad it happened. There's a lot of wrong with it,
but there's a lot of good that has happened.
And that's what I need to tell you guys is there's going to be
the these wrong things that happened to you.
But look at it from the bigger perspective.
If she had not done that to me, nobody would know who I was.
We wouldn't be doing this interview.
Nobody, I wouldn't have come up with body lameness.
I wouldn't have. Nobody would know.
I'd just be living in my little bubble of my clients and nobody
would know who Audrey was. So there's a lot of good you
guys. So that's what I mean at the
moment. It was like, Huna, you're lucky
I didn't head butt you, you know, like I'm a lineman.
I mean, it's the truth, but that that's what I mean, there's, I
did it because I wanted to. I knew I was doing something
that other people weren't and I was listening.
I was learning all these things for horses and that just kind
of, I was like, this can't happen.
They can't be killing these horses and sending their brains
off, their several brains off and finding nothing because
there's never been another paper about it, right?
If it was true right there, God knows they had a lot of
Budweiser, Clydesdales and other horses euthanized for nothing.
Or they could have just treated. They could have.
And I didn't know then either. So, you know, there's a lot of
one. It could have, should have,
whatever. It doesn't matter.
We have to always look at how that happened for a reason to
push me to where I'm at now to be able to help you guys.
And these are sometimes the things you have to go through to
look at the bigger picture instead of just looking at that
as a negative thing, right? It's kind of like learning all
the stuff you're learning. Look at the bigger picture when
you're getting out in those days where you're like, this sucks,
but tomorrow's going to be a better day.
Yeah. I think that no matter what
profession you go into, some are worse than others.
Like I think we've talked about it with Doctor Quammen.
I think it gets really bad with the vet techs.
And I haven't been in the equine vet clinic world so much as I've
just, you know, kind of seen the Breeders side of it.
And even that can get really crazy.
And like, I know what you mean. I've been to the horse shows,
even like a little 4H horse show.
Oh, my goodness, Tony, it gets crazy.
I don't know what it is. And it's to the point where in
vet school we're learning about Crazy Horse people.
That's a thing. There's crazy dog people,
there's just crazy people. There's crazy people in general,
but there seems to be a high proportion of horse people that
like to think. I'm not saying they don't, but
not all of them. Do.
You know, there's this dynamic between veterinarians and horse
owners where horse owners tend to think, OK, well, I want to do
it this way. And the vet says, well, I think
you should do it this way. And nobody can find an
agreeance. And I think that's another huge
turn off to go into equine because even I don't know I was
giving. I like I've been telling this
story recently because I think it's hilarious, but I was giving
a 4H presentation to like 9 year olds about parasites and horses
last semester for a volunteer service learning whatever.
Like I'm just giving this little tiny 15 minute lecture about
parasite prevention, dewormer, grooming, the basics to 9 year
olds. And at the end I gave him a
little quiz and I was like, OK, So what did we learn about
today? Like what are some methods of
prevention that I talked about? I said in nine year old terms, I
don't remember what I said. And then I, you know, they
raised their hands and one of them was like, oh, dewormer
grooming. And then the last person, she
was like diatomaceous earth. And I was like, sure, whoever
told you that? Sure.
Like I didn't say that, but cool.
If you want to. I'm a bed student.
I'm a first year Bed student. I'm not the end all be all.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have not I don't think as of
right now that that's accurate or prevention method.
But go ahead. You know, some of the I mean,
it's a really good point because the problem is, is that in small
animal we can give people more answers because we can do a dog,
a gram, Catagram, hamsterogram, snakeogram, right?
We can do all these grams, we can throw them under any machine
and go there's the problem. I think part of the issue with
the equine world is that we as veterinarians have not been able
to give people answers. So if you can't give people
answers and the trainer and the rider, whether it's an amateur
or a professional trainer, they get back on their horse and they
go, it still feels like crap. I just spent $1500 of my hard
earned money and it still feels the same.
So that's kind of the problem, right?
And I think that is something that has gotten the veterinary
profession into trouble, to be honest with you, because nobody
can give these people answers. And about especially lameness,
body lameness and why a horse is crooked, why a horse, you know,
only hops and transitions. Nobody's been giving them
answers. And that is the problem.
That's why people make their own stuff up and that's why they
don't listen to the veterinarians.
Maybe not a nine year old, but Paris pathology.
But it's OK. It's the same problem.
They want a solution and they're
not finding it. That's right.
And that is the most important thing, you guys, is we have not
been able to give these people answers.
We're not. We can find this teeny weeny
little hot spur and we're going to say that is your problem, why
your horse feels horrible. They inject the horse, you get
back on it and it's like this still feels like crap.
The horse's haunches are still to the right.
You go back to the veterinarian, right?
What do they say? Well, we missed this, blah,
blah, blah. They got to move more stifle
injections and block your horse more and everything you get back
on your horse after you spend another $1500.
Now we're at 3 grand of course, still doing the same thing.
It's still dropping out behind haunches are to the right.
This is this is the issue. This is why we're in the
situation we're in with people not wanting to go into the
equine veterinary world, and that's why a lot of people do
not have respect for vetner equine veterinarians is.
There an approach they can have instead.
So I was just taught about injections for like the first
time and they're like, you're going to be doing this a lot and
I and I know that because that is the fall back of the industry
and sure it does provide relief, but then my thing is they come
back to these issues. It's only a matter of time.
So we're putting a Band-Aid on an issue and also putting them
at risk for other things. So what do you do instead, as in
your realm of veterinary medicine, to treat horses?
So when we ride a horse, they're supposed to be straight, right?
Just like this line right behind me, straight.
This is a horse. If they're crooked, there's
something really wrong. And so that's what we haven't
learned. And the distal limbs, yes, they
have issues down there, but the majority of them come because
their body is not straight. They need to be straight.
We ride them to be straight. So we're not nobody teaches bio
mechanics. And so that's, so you, you have
a body that's not straight. It's kind of like a person with
back pain. Their knees start wearing out on
the, if you have right sided back pain, your left knee is
going to start wearing out. It's all the compensatory things
that you can inject their hocks. They'll feel better for a couple
weeks because the joints, the lower joints are not working.
They're taking the load of a biomechanical dysfunction of the
axial skeleton and people don't even understand how the axial
skeleton works together. And that's what I kind of have
figured out. And I had to figure out because
I ride my client horses. I get on them.
I'm like, this feels like crap. Where's that coming from?
Right? And why is a horse like that?
I mean, you just, you know, I'm just a real person.
I just go, man, that feel that, and it may look beautiful, like
a horse may look beautiful on the lunge line.
And then you get on them and it feels like horrible.
They'll just throw you around where you can't have your
balance. That's that's all body lameness.
You guys, if you get on a horse and their diagonals are
different, it's body lanes, they're body lane.
They're not foot limb, they're not limping, they're not any of
that. So I think there's a lot to
this, but you know, I, I work for trainers and I listen to my
trainers and I train my trainers to understand that if a horse is
resistant doing something, it's because there's something wrong.
And that's the real truth. And the veterinary equine
veterinary profession is really horrible at understanding that.
It's really, really horrible. It's so horrible at it horrible.
That's why I'm different. You know, that's why I have so
much respect for Sue Dyson and the ethograms.
That's the beginning. You've been mentioning body
lameness. Could you kind of give us a
definition per se? And like, what are you looking
for? When you say body lameness, what
does that mean? And when you decide what part of
the body or all of the body, what are your next steps?
Well, body lameness is axial skeleton lameness.
I start calling the body lameness because my literally my
clients, the trainers I work for, they're like axial what?
What does that mean? And you want to know something?
The body workers know this stuff.
They know it better than veterinarians.
I love training body workers and physiotherapists.
I love training them. I love teaching and training
them. They are so much easier to train
and teach than veterinarians. Now isn't that interesting?
But body lameness is only axial skeleton and the body is in
three sections. And that's a whole complex how
it's all connected because it's all connected, connected.
And you got to understand how it's connected and what, how it
all works together. And that's what I'm teaching in
the fall. I'm right writing a book on bio
mechanics so that trainers can read it, students can read it,
everybody can read it. It's not going to be
complicated. It's it's not going to be all
those crazy. I can't read some of these
veterinary books, can you? I mean, you guys are in the
midst of it. I can't read some of the stuff
that's up here in my cabinet. I'm like, I don't try to, is the
answer. I don't think I've ever tried
to. I go with what my professor
teaches me. That's what's going to be on the
test. And then if I feel like reading
something crazy, I'll read like I just read Cowboy Medicine.
My grandmother, he's probably watching this.
Hi, Grandma. She got me a book called Cowboy
Medicine, and it's by Doctor Paul Christensen.
Yeah. And it was like OG.
It's a little bit outdated. Some of the stuff I was reading,
I was like, we don't, we don't do that anymore.
I know. That being said, it was still
very interesting and it was about Canada and like OG cowboy,
like working cows, 24/7 C-section, low technology
medicine in the 70s, eighties, 90s.
So it was definitely very interesting.
But that's the type of stuff that I prefer to read instead of
like, I don't know, papers. I probably should.
That's probably more beneficial. But right now what's interesting
is I want to hear people's real experiences.
And in the book he would talk about here's what this client
thought about this and here's my real life experiences.
I think that that's beneficial to me, even though it's not
really applicable because he was doing this 30 years ago.
And it, it's, it is applicable. I'm telling you guys, all I have
is my hands, my eyes, my ears, taste, smell.
That's how I do everything. I mean, I have an ultrasound
machine and shockwave machine and that's it.
If I need X-rays, I send them off.
I don't need to have an X-ray machine.
I don't really care. I don't ever see a horse X-ray
ever again in my life. I know I will, and I'm not even
done. You're going to.
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. And I literally still have to
test on it because we're doing, I think we just did the thorax
this week or something. So I'm still learning it.
But I was telling y'all before the podcast, like we learned all
about the different, just learning the different views,
just the views of the distal limb.
To diagnose lameness is like one of the hardest things I've had
to do in vet school for no reason.
How is it possible that the veterinary profession is latched
on that the limbs are the most important thing in a horse?
I mean, we ride the horse to move the limbs.
We don't ride the limbs to move the horse.
I mean, I'd love to see a horse, a limb of a horse saddled up,
right? Like, just go on, get on there.
Let's see what happens to you. It makes no sense to me.
Like it. It makes absolutely no sense,
especially, you know, but the old ways, I find the old ways
people have more common. It goes back to the common sense
building that every veterinary school has to have.
The old ways were common sense. Now some, some of the stuff is
outdated, but it's still, it's the fact that it's a horse.
I don't care what discipline a horse is, it does for a living.
Whatever it is a horse, right? A cow is different than a horse,
not only intestinally, but everything else, right?
It's different. So you're going to have
different issues. But a horse is a horse, whether
it's a miniature horse, a mule is a horse, a zebra is a horse.
It's a equid species, you know, body lameness's axioskeleton and
how it all works together. And I, I forget about the
toothpicks down there because they really, because you, you
know, you can look at a year's worth of history just looking at
their feet. That is a year that is one year
tells you everything about a horse.
I can look at a horse's feet and say the horse and people are
amazed by this. They go, I'm like, OK, you have
a lead change problem from left to right.
I haven't even touched the horse.
I just walk up to the horse and look at it and they're like,
yeah, the left lead is better than the right lead and left to
right lead change sucks. And they're like, how did you
know that? And I'm like, I'm definitely not
a savant. I just look at the horses feet.
Gives me a years worth of history and I look at the body
and that's all you need to do. I can tell people how a horse
rides by just looking at their body and their feet.
What kinds of things are you looking for when you're looking
at the feet? Are you looking at kind of the
wear and if it's uneven or what are you looking for?
One being bigger than the other, weight bearing, right?
Everything you look at musculature, if they're
atrophied someplace or if they're asymmetrical someplace,
if their neck is hollow, it tells you the whole story.
If there's sweat pattern someplace versus another.
I mean, people are always amazed by it.
I'm like, this is all they do. I'm quite bored in practice.
Be honest with you. I never get well, I have, I have
some, I have a challenge in case here's now, which I love.
It's the only thing that stimulates me.
Things that are really, really challenging, you know, besides
talking to you guys. And I enjoy doing that too, you
know, teaching people and helping people.
I really enjoy doing that. But you know, it's just it's
learning, it's actually observing.
You know, it's like you've got to sit back and like I said, you
need to look at horses and you got to learn what they are and
what's normal, what's abnormal people, the veterinary you are
not going to learn what normal is.
And that's kind of the issue I'd.
Love to hear about. I mean, I'll give a little
preface as to my background and what drew me to your work.
So I grew up with horses, riding them, a big, big proponent of
welfare and correct husbandry because I believe that is the
source of like 90% of our issues in the equine world is how we're
managing them. But on the riding, I got a
chronically lame horse that I was telling you about.
And I was told really there were no options.
And and I was like, well, he's only 12, so I'm kind of going to
refuse to believe that. So I started doing like talking
to body workers, talking to chiropractors, people who
weren't going to tell me no, but they were going to say, well,
let's adjust him. Let's give it time.
Also, the body takes joints take a long time to heal.
And I was like, OK, then I was told you have to do hooves.
So then I went to farrier school for like a week.
I am no expert by any means but I trimmed mine and I tried pay
attention to like how their hopes change and he's not
perfectly sound. I think majority of horses
aren't but I can ride him and he is happy under saddle and I
think that's what people are ignoring.
Like when I get on my horse is happy about it.
He actually doesn't let me get off.
He wants to keep going. You know, that's a really
important point, what you just said.
I think I see. So how many horses, I think we
manage it like show, I only do show horses.
So they're managed very, very well.
They're taken care of very well. So but I think the starting
process like how we're starting horses, we're starting them so
young, we're putting so much pressure on them.
We're using I'll fitting equipment.
They're not happy. Like they're not happy.
We're tying up to a wall for 8 hours, right.
Like people are tying them around for a problem that is an
injury and we're not accepting that young horses get injured.
I mean, it's crazy to me. Like a kid can get hurt playing
peewee football, right? Like, but we can't accept a
horse gets hurt when it's a year, you know, 18 months old to
two years old. And but what you said about
being happy, I see so many horses that are so miserable, so
painful and they're out there doing their job, but their ears
are back, their tail swishing their heads up over their back.
And it's it shouldn't be that way.
Like it shouldn't be that way. We as a profession should have,
we wouldn't be talking about social licensing if the
veterinary profession would have stepped up and said this is not
OK. We know these horses are in
pain. But see that that's the big
lapse. They didn't even know the horses
were in pain. The veterinary profession didn't
even know the horses were in pain.
They just said, I mean, still to this day, veterinarians say
horses are behavioral. I'm like, Oh my God, you have
got to be better. You have got to be better as a
veterinarian to not understand that your patient is so painful
and you say it's behavioral because you can't pick up its
right front leg. Unacceptable to me.
There's a reason why a horse can't pick up its leg,
especially a trained horse that knows how to pick up its legs,
right? So I think those are all the
things that if a horse is happy, they want to keep going.
They want to take you for a ride wherever.
They don't care where you go. They want to go in the ring and
compete. They want to do their job.
They want to be with their human.
But any horse that's girthy, any horse that can't pick up a leg,
that doesn't like to be groomed, that tosses its head when you
bridle it all, all these things, You bring the saddle out and
it's pinning its ears, it's moving in the cross eyes.
It's painful. That's where the exam should
start. As a veterinarian is in the
stall. You should be watching your
patient in the stall, slowing down, watching your watching
your patient in the stall, and then the whole process of
grooming, tacking up everything. And that's where I'm different
because. I never rush.
I don't, I don't rush. Everybody loves it because we
all get to know each other really well because we're all
just standing there at stall watching the horse and talking.
We bring the horse out, they get groom right?
All this stuff. You have to see these things.
And so we're missing all this. And that's where you guys can be
different. That's where you can be
different is you can change that to make people aware that this
starts in their where they live in their house.
It's like watching your grandmother that has a bad hip
get up out of the chair, right? It's not easy.
So you know, it's, it's a observing I observe so much.
That's what I do. I can see it's a curse too.
It's it's a real curse. But but for you guys, that's
where you can be different. That's where you can start
teaching and understanding that it starts go go to the large
Animal Hospital and just watch horses in their stall.
You'll see a pattern. You'll start recognizing the
pattern of pain. And I think me working at the
University of Minnesota, I saw these horses in their stalls
post surgery be prior to surgery for lameness with Doctor Turner,
how painful they were. And I knew the signs already,
but because I'm, you know, I'm a horse person.
What do you feel for when you said that you ride your clients
horses? I think that would shock
majority of equine vets. What do you feel for Michaela
and I? Both ride, by the way.
What they feel like, like a horse should be straight.
If you get on a horse and their neck is over here and you got to
pull in the left rein because their neck is over here to the
right, there's something wrong. If if you walk and their walk is
like they're just this, they're lame.
If you're being shifted over to the right or shifted over to the
left, they're lame. There's something wrong.
They're body lane. OK, if they're not straight, if
they don't push behind, if they drop out or if they're diagonals
different, they're lame. That's body lameness.
They might not be head bobbing lame.
They may not any of that. But a horse should be
symmetrical. They should just flow.
I mean, riding a horse that has a beautiful trot, you just sit
there. You're just like, hello world,
how are you? This is so nice.
And then you Cantor and you're like, yeah, you know, you can
just sit there all day long just cantering along.
You want to lead change? Here we go.
Lead change canner in the next way, right?
That's what a horse should feel like.
They're born symmetrical. You know, they're born for
symmetry. They're not born for asymmetry.
Sometimes you'd like to think that the way that they get hurt.
I have these on my farm and I tell people this all the time.
They complain about how much horses cost and I say, OK,
here's my thing about horses is these two are the cheapest
horses you'll ever buy and you still can ride them.
And the best thing to do is dig a hole, throw your money in,
throw your money in just I mean literally just keep keep
throwing your money in and then one day, unfortunately, you're
going to throw your horse in there and then finally you can
bury that's horses. Besides these two, you don't
cost anything. They cost me nothing except for
actually they were presents from my neighbor page if.
You were in charge of the veterinary schools.
Besides adding a common sense building, how would you teach
lameness and? What do you?
Want to instill in our generation?
Bio mechanics people do not understand how a horse works.
They don't. They don't understand.
This is why we're in. This is why people are so
dissatisfied many times with their job as an equine
veterinarian. It's because you can't.
You can't explain things to people.
People come to me, I can explain to them well, This is why.
This is why I can talk to the trainer.
This is why their heads this, this is what we need to do.
And then they get back on the horse and the horse is better
because I can explain why. And then it's just learning how
a horse works, how it actually should work and why we're having
the issues that we're having and being able to give people
answers of I have to do this first.
Yeah, I got to do this next and explain to him there are no
quick fixes. We got to accept that there's
injuries that happen and it takes a long time to come back,
sometimes years, years as an athlete and the equine world is
not for you guys. You don't understand bio
mechanics. So you can't give people a
timeline of all this is really bad.
And we're looking at a year to two years and they're like,
you're kidding me. I just spent, you know, 600,000
for this horse. Well, that's the reality.
I because your horse unfortunately has a serious
injury and it's Axioskeleton and none of this gets better
quickly. You know, it's not like a broken
bone. So, you know, it's all these
things that if I was going to teach, I'd start the structure
by teaching bio mechanics and having people understand how a
horse works and then teaching them at the same time, watching
a horse in a stall, watching them walk out of a stall.
Just teaching people to slow down and observe your patient
and to listen and to to do a physical exam.
Like people do not know how to do physical exams.
They don't know how to interpret what the reaction of the horses.
And to me, it's if it doesn't hurt, they don't react.
But it's also how people palpate and they don't train you guys
how to actually palpate or how to do range of motion or how to
understand bio mechanics. That's where I would start.
All you have to do is look. It's all there.
They will their bodies will never lie to you.
What's there is there and never let anyone, this is one thing
I'm going to tell all you guys is don't let anyone tell you
that what you think and what you see and what you hear and what
you know. Don't let anyone swayed you out
of it. That is your, that's your side
of it. That's what you hear, that's
what you smell. It may be different than them.
There's not a right and wrong in that.
Ever. Let anyone tell you that what
you see and hear and taste and smell what you think is wrong.
Trust your intuition. It's there.
Don't let anyone persuade you out of it.
Anyone. Anyone.
Because God knows I tried enough horses up and down the hallway
for Doctor Turner and I was on 95% of the time.
Why? I realized I wasn't, I really
wasn't. And I didn't let I was older.
I didn't let anyone persuade me out of it because you couldn't
persuade someone like me not to accept that what I hear and see
and think is what I see. You know, I'm just not that
person that's going to be influenced by it.
So that's what I'm telling you guys, don't let anyone influence
you. If you think there's something
wrong with that dog, if you think there's something wrong
with that horse, it's there. But you also have to, you know,
you have to not have your emotions in it, right?
You have to have it factual, no emotional state to us.
And that's one thing I can tell you too, is we as veterans, we
need to check our emotions and we need to keep those at Bay.
You have to have empathy for your patience and compassion for
your patience. But that cannot override your
factual, logical, scientific brain.
Does that make sense? Because some people take, get
things too emotional And I, I'm not like that.
If you want to be a veterinarian, you got to accept
that there are going to be bad outcomes.
You're going to have to euthanize animals, you're going
to have to see the worst. And it's upsetting.
It's upsetting for me. It's but you have to have to
learn how to deal with that. And if you're not strong enough
to deal with that, maybe go into research or something else
instead of practicing as a veterinarian because it's a,
it's a tough job. It's a tough job.
You're very right. I think even just being in the
clinic, even not as a veterinarian at techs are
stressed out. There's high turnover rates for
many, many reasons, but one of them is the emotional load.
You can't here's my biggest thing.
You don't want animals suffering.
We don't want to see our own loved ones suffer, right, Even
though, you know, there's and we have the gift as a veterinarian
to be able to take our animals out of suffering.
And people can become selfish, right?
And they lose a rational aspect to this is suffering.
And I feel like it's our job as veterinarians to say your
animal's really suffering and it's very, very painful.
And this is hard for all of us, but we need to do the right
thing for your animal, right? And it's, if you cannot have
that conversation and it's hard, but you also have to, if you
want to be a doctor, these are the, these are the things that
you have to work on. I mean, mental illness is a, we
all love animals, but you also have to have that emotional
integrity and emotional control to understand you're there to
not only help the human, but you're also there to help the
animal. And the human aspect of it is a
very big thing. And you have to be good with
humans and you have to have care.
You have to care, you know, you have to care, but not, you know,
and you have to guide the owner to like, Nope, I'm sorry, this
is not, you know, it's hard. But if you're, if you can't
handle that and it, it wears on all of us, but you also have to,
I always look at to the positive of everything.
What did this teach me? How am I going to learn from
this? You know, what can I do to be
different, to be able to help the next patient?
Or what did I say that was incorrect that I need to be
better at? How did I approach this?
It's always to me, it's self reflection.
It's always having self reflection of trying to be the
best human being that you can be and to actually care.
I find people stop caring because they take all that stuff
on and it bogs them down. And I'm just telling you don't
let it do that. Keep your positive attitude.
Realize why you're doing this. You're doing this to help other
people and animals and it's a great job.
It's an exceptional job. That's.
Amazing. I think I'd like to wrap us up
on for people who want to learn more because our education will
not necessarily provide resources for bio mechanics.
Where can we as students look or pre vet students or horse owners
or does anyone who wants to know more?
Where can we learn about bio mechanics?
Can come to me because I'm going to be teaching courses.
You don't have to be a vet area. You can be a veterinary student,
you can be a trainer, you can be a veterinarian because you guys
are important to me. The veterinary students are very
important to me because if I can help train you how to think
about problems, then you're going to have a, you're never
going to have to worry about business.
I don't, I'm very fortunate. Everybody, everybody's worried
about money, right? How much like you said earlier,
like the salaries are so bad for equine veterinarians.
Well, if you understand what I do for a living and if you're
start and you develop the skills, you never have to worry
about business. You never have to worry about
not having business. People will come to you because
you know you care #1 #2 they want solutions to problems and
#3 the horse gets better and people don't have to spend as
much money. So when you start treating body
lameness, the at the lower limb stuff starts becomes minimal,
very minimal, very minimal. And that's the key to it all.
That's what I've learned. I've seen the pattern where
horses were getting their Hawks and stifles injecting coffin
joints injected every three to four months.
And it's this repetitive. Oh, it's time.
It's time. It's time.
If you take care of the body that is responsible
biomechanically for allowing the joints, the lower limb joints to
move and work correctly and correctly and not and evenly.
The amount of work you have to do down there is very minimal.
Isn't that a concept? Isn't that a huge concept?
Hey, one thing. Can I say one thing, you guys?
So one of these questions and I have to tell you, one of my
clients was here today and she's Harvard trained, She's a Harvard
professor. She's very good client has great
horses. Actually as a horse that had
shivers in all four legs. What the thing that you guys
have to realize? And she said when she read, I
gave her guys the questions and she's like, you tell those
ladies that these are Harvard approved questions because we
didn't get to all these questions, but that's OK.
We can we can do a better podcast next time and actually
answer the question. But it was fun.
It was fun getting to know you guys, you know, and just kind of
telling stories and stuff. But we should answer these
questions and you guys come up with more direct ones.
But she said, Anne told me to tell you like you guys are and I
told them this is the future, Anne.
You guys are the future of what I have started all because of
that one Bettner in in 2015. So my job is to help you guys to
develop these skills. But you have to always realize
that horses will never lie to you.
Your patients will not lie to you.
Horses will never lie to you. So please, if you know better,
you should do better, right? And so with all this, that's
what I, I need. I want you guys to know that
please tell your classmates everything, that what you see,
horses will never lie. But just slow down and listen,
you know, and don't get overwhelmed, all right?
I would love to do like a Part 2.
We could schedule it and maybe a case based one with.
These. I'd love that.
That would be phenomenal because I grew up always wanting to be
an equine veterinarian. I do love to see everything,
though. So I'm kind of like, give it to
me. I'm at least going to attempt to
try to fix it because yeah, I hate the feeling of sending it
to someone who's going to hurt five times as much and it might
die anyway. So I'm just going to do whatever
I can. So, but I am frustrated by the
industry and I want to learn more.
So I'm like, you talk about these things, but I'm like, how
do you see that? How do you recognize that?
What can I do? What can I tell them?
Because I'm tired of getting my horse injected.
And that's like my. Wife.
Well, if you want. Here's the thing I can tell you
if you want a performance horse, they're going to need to be
injected because there's wear and tear.
Yeah, and that's the real truth. I mean, if you want to be an
athlete, you're going to have injuries and you're going to
have to be treated. And it all doesn't entail
injections, but it entails a lot of other things besides just
injecting. And it's all the I mean, we this
it's a whole nother realm of rehab, physiotherapy, all that
stuff. I mean, that's a whole nother
level that I teach. And it's, you know, it's, it's
easy once you start understanding it, it's easy.
But if you want a performance horse, if you want a trail
horse, fine. You're not going to inject it
unless it needs it. But a performance horse, it
entails advanced medicine and and things you know, they get
injured. Yeah.
So we could do something with case best based.
That would be amazing. We actually just had so funny
that we're talking today about performance horses.
We had an FBI veterinarian talk to our equine club the other day
and talk about going through the process and it takes like 20
something years. He was on like the Olympic so
but I was like, what does this really entail?
Because these are pretty much always lameness cases.
Like what is the process of dealing with $1,000,000 millions
of dollar clients where they're like, you need to get them in
the ring? Because we've had years of
training leading up to this. And I'm looking at their horse
and being like, I know that that is a champion dressage horse,
but they're lame. They need 2 years of rehab and
they need to not be riding for months.
Say, how do you even bring? Well, that's that's the whole
issue, right? And that's a whole that's a
whole nother realm of discussion that unfortunately the horse
many times is sacrificed because the veterinarians don't don't
tell if they say they have a suspensory.
So at least you have nine months and then the horse goes back and
then it's injured again. You're just I just saw it
literally today. I just saw a shivers horse that
he's 19 years old now. I started treating him four
years ago. The horse couldn't even walk and
he shivered so bad in all four legs.
And today I could pick up all four legs no problem.
His body looks beautiful, everything.
What do? You treat shivers with what?
Is the whole that's a whole nother That's another girls
that's a whole nother. I would love to have you guys.
No, I'm really serious. I I'm here to help you guys and
eat, you know, students and that it's hard.
People want to come and work with me and do externships and
stuff. It's hard.
I travel a lot, but I do teach and the bio mechanics is going
to may be open to you guys, especially you guys as students.
I'm here to help you guys. You guys are the future.
There is not going to be any equine veterinarians like. 70 to
80% or. Maybe even more.
It's more than that you guys. I just had a veterinarian call
me tonight and she left a voicemail.
I called, we always play phone tag and she has a 2 year old
horse that has really bad sciatica.
And I really, her name's Ally. She's up in New York someplace,
but she's going to go see a veterinarian up in Canada that's
training with me and be able to treat the horse.
But she was like, she's like, I don't understand why people just
don't pick up the phone and call people like you and just you
just say, Hey, I can't, you know, this is what you can do.
If you can't do it, then here's somebody that can help you.
She goes, we're not going to have people because of these
factors, right? Nobody wants to share clients.
And there's so much. And that's kind of the kind of
the issue, right? We all need to help each other.
We need to help each other, not be on islands away from each
other. And that's my goal is through
what I've done, I'm trying to make a family where people are
like it doesn't matter what letters you have behind your
name, just come. We're all the same.
We're all DVMS. You just got more letters.
Doesn't mean you're smarter, just means you went through more
stuff, right? Because being smart is only
dependent on what you can solve as far as problems.
It's not about right and wrong answer.
Sometimes there's not a right answer and many times there's
not a wrong answer. So that's what everybody wants,
1 answer. And I'm like I don't have one
answer lane the whole thing. And I think that is the most
important point. We are very grateful.
Thank you. So much.
You're welcome. You're so.
Love to do a Part 2 where we go, I know we hit a lot of the
questions a little bit less in depth, but if we do it case
based Part 2 where we go over more of the neurology and the
bio mechanics and things that people can look for.
Absolutely even. Incorporate videos if.
We can if I can shoot. Yeah, that would be great.
So it would almost be kind of like a lecture, but people can
see. Yeah, talking.
So I think it would be really helpful.
I can share my screen and we'll start with the simplest things
and we can put case up so they can see it and I can go over an
exam. Yeah.
That would be amazing. That would be absolutely
amazing. Michaela yeah, just walking
through, what are we looking at? What are we looking for?
Thank you so much, Doctor de Clue.
Well, thank you for listening to the vet files and thank you
Doctor de Clue for coming on today.
But you can find the horse First podcast on everything I figured.
So thought I would check and you can find the vet files on
YouTube and Spotify and we'll see you next time.