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To the Vet files. 
Today, Mckaylan and I are with 

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Doctor Audrey to Clue. 
She is an equine sports medicine

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veterinarian, graduate of Ross 
University of Veterinary 

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Medicine, and the host of the 
Horse First Podcast, a widely 

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respected equine podcast focused
on mystery and unsolved lameness

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cases. 
Through her work in clinical 

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practice and podcasting, Dr. De 
Clue focuses on understanding 

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the why behind performance 
problems rather than isolating a

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single sore limb. 
Her approach challenges 

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traditional sports menace by 
emphasizing whole horse 

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diagnostics, pain recognition, 
and the overlap between 

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neurologic, musculoskeletal, and
biomechanical dysfunction. 

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Thank you so much, Doctor de 
Clue for joining us. 

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You're welcome. 
Happy to be here. 

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Yes. 
I'd love to start off with 

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asking more about your 
background so you often describe

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it as untraditional. 
I'd love to hear more. 

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Well, I think it is. 
It's very untraditional. 

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Became a veterinarian at 41 
years old. 

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I'm almost 60 years old right 
now. 

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I just, I was an athlete. 
I worked in different 

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manufacturing job for Archer 
Daniels Midland after I stopped 

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being an athlete and then I 
became a journeyman lineman 

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where, you know, you climb poles
and do high voltage electricity.

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And I was a blue collar worker, 
just strictly a blue collar 

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worker out there in the 
trenches, working storms, ice 

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storms, hurricanes, tornadoes 
out there, putting people's 

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power back on, building tower 
lines, highline residential 

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stuff, you know, So it gave me a
different perspective about how 

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to solve problems because if 
your power goes out, we can't 

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just walk up and say, sorry, we 
can't figure out how to get your

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power back on. 
So see you later, you know, like

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call somebody else, you know, 
maybe they can figure it out. 

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It doesn't work that way. 
As a blue collar worker, you 

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have to solve the problem. 
If you call a plumber to your 

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house, they will figure out the 
problem. 

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You might not like the price for
it or you might not that like 

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the fact they might have to tear
a bunch of stuff out, but 

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they'll solve your problem. 
And I have that mindset the same

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way with with horses is I have 
an education. 

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And if you know your education 
and you know you use your 

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education and if you don't know 
the answer, then you keep 

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researching until you find a 
solution to the problem. 

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Sometimes you don't know the 
answer. 

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Do you know what's causing it? 
But you can at least find a 

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solution to the problem that 
works. 

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So I think for me, that's why 
I'm very different on how I 

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approach everything instead of 
how they teach you guys in 

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veterinary school. 
Like step one, Step 2, Step 3, 

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like all these steps, these rule
outs, you're not thinking of 

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application, you're just 
thinking of, OK, I have this 

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list. 
Once I'm done with that list, 

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sorry, you know, you guys are 
experiencing it right now. 

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You're going to throw 90% of it 
out. 

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I hate to say that it's true. 
I think the way that they're 

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teaching is better today. 
But I also think that you guys 

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need to start hands on like I 
did as an apprentice lineman, 

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you're out in the field all the 
time learning, and then you 

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understand what to prioritize 
and then you're in class, right?

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And you have to get through your
education and then you go back 

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out in the field and you learn. 
And many people would not become

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a veterinarian if they really 
understood, you know, in and day

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out. 
And we'll get to that topic too.

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But there's a lot to this. 
And it's not just loving 

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animals. 
You have to have the right 

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personality and stuff to be able
to make it. 

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So I'm not the typical 
veterinarian. 

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I don't think like a 
veterinarian. 

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I, I'm not like you guys. 
They're teaching you how to be 

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a, to think like a veterinarian.
I do not think like a 

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veterinarian at all. 
I think just like a blue collar 

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worker. 
And I think that if they would 

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teach people to be more like, 
think like a blue collar worker,

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I think things would be a lot 
better as far as you guys coming

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out and being able to just do 
the job, you know. 

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Yeah, You mentioned. 
So what made you. 

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That's a drastic career change. 
What made you think like, OK, I 

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want to get into veterinary 
medicine. 

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Did you think I'm going to go be
a vet tech and then go to vet 

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school? 
Or what was that like? 

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So the truth is the safest guy I
ever knew got killed, a 

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journeyman lineman, His name's 
Phil Edwards. 

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Safest guy ever knew got killed.
And it changed me. 

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It like, rocked my world. 
I knew his daughter played 

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basketball. 
It helped train, you know, like 

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all these things and I wasn't 
the safest. 

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I mean, I took risk and I just 
knew that if he got killed, I 

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was going to I definitely was 
going to die as a lineman. 

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It's one of the most dangerous 
jobs in the world. 

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But I think that I had to I like
had to re evaluate myself and go

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what do I really want to do for 
a living? 

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So I quit being a lineman and I 
became like an assistant 

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technician at the University of 
Minnesota. 

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I was one of Doctor Tracy 
Turner's technicians at the 

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University of Minnesota, and I 
was just his runner. 

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Like I knew nothing. 
Understand. 

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I mean, I'm farm, I understand 
farms. 

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I don't understand animals and 
all that stuff. 

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And I could step into it and I'm
a hard worker. 

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Like there's nobody that can 
outwork me. 

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And so I just learned and I 
realized, you know, I didn't 

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think I was smart enough to be 
honest with you. 

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I honestly did not, I think I 
was smart enough to be a 

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veterinarian. 
And when I got working as a, as 

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a technician, I realized, wow, 
these people are really smart, 

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but they're not common sense has
gone out. 

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Like I don't know where the 
common sense is, but it, it's 

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somewhere not in this building, 
you know, like it's so out of 

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the building. 
I don't even know where the 

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building is that has it. 
But we're on a whole big campus.

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Hopefully there's a building 
there that has a common sense 

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sign in front of it. 
We all need to take these 

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people, transplant them to the 
common sense building there we 

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might solve some problems, 
right? 

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It's the truth. 
But anyways, that's what made me

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and then I, I applied to get 
into my grades weren't good 

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enough. 
I was a jock. 

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You know what jock is athlete. 
I think I graduated from college

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with I would have had probably a
1.85 GPA, like 2 point. 

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I was lucky, maybe a 2.1 
literally I'm serious. 

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So you know, I didn't think I 
was that smart. 

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I'm really not that smart. 
I just have a lot of common 

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sense and I have, I can solve 
problems. 

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So don't feel like don't it's OK
if you feel like you don't know 

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anything. 
I feel like that all the time. 

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And I think it's a healthy thing
not to feel like you know 

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anything. 
You know, like you guys are 

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going through that process right
now where you're like, Oh my 

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God, how am I going to learn all
this? 

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Is it important? 
Is it not important? 

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Don't worry about that. 
Just get through it. 

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Just do what you're told, go 
along with it to get along like 

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you just got to go along to get 
along right now. 

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Just do it, play the game, go 
along to get along. 

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But afterwards, then you can 
start pushing whatever limits 

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you want with yourself and 
whatever you want to learn. 

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You know, that's the real truth 
and that's why, you know, I, 

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I've seen all sides of this and,
and I think that you guys just 

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have to have a positive 
attitude, even when you get all 

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stress and you're like, Oh my 
God, I got an exam tomorrow and 

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I got to know all this stuff. 
Just know what you can know. 

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Just, you know, don't 
procrastinate. 

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You got to study every single 
night, right? 

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Don't put it off. 
It just sucks. 

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It just sucks, but you'll be OK.
But I'm not the traditional, you

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know, I, I just approach things 
differently and you're not going

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to, you're going to find your 
own way. 

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That's one thing I can tell you.
What advice would you give to 

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students that are interested in 
equine sports medicine or just 

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the equine field in general? 
Because I think the most 

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unattractive thing about the 
equine field that I hear a lot 

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is the pay. 
So I don't know any advice. 

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It's a really good question. 
I think the biggest flaw of what

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has transpired is the biggest 
flaw of equine veterinarians. 

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That's why we can't find equine 
veterinarians, you know, and I'm

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going to be honest, I'm just an 
honest person. 

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This is my perspective, my 
opinion, but I'm also an 

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outsider to this profession. 
So I see things as an outsider. 

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I haven't. 
You guys are going, you're going

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to be ingrained into a culture 
that I know I'm not part of that

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culture at all because I was 
older when I went to veterinary 

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school. 
You were younger. 

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So they couldn't ingrain me in 
that mindset, right? 

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There is no changing my mindset.
I think the most important thing

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is that you need to know horses.
You need to know how to ride 

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horses. 
You need to know how to groom 

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them. 
You need to have horse 

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experience. 
If you do not, it's OK. 

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But you need to understand that 
if you don't, it's the mistake 

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that we've gotten into with the 
equine profession is if you 

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don't know how to ride a horse, 
then a trainer is telling you 

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what's wrong if you don't even 
understand what they're saying. 

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It's like a foreign language. 
If you can't ride, you need to 

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learned to ride. 
If you don't know how to groom a

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horse, then you need to learn 
how to groom a horse. 

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If you don't understand horses 
at all, stand on the road 

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watching a pasture of horses. 
You need to understand your 

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patient before you can even 
think that you're going to step 

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into a sports medicine world 
where you're dealing with 

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trainers and riders and people 
that do know these things. 

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But the mistake here's just a 
little pet peeve of mine. 

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I cannot believe that 
veterinarians who ride, people 

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that ride like veterinarians 
that truly ride have not solved 

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these problems that do not talk 
about body lameness, that do not

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have not solved these problems. 
I'm not the first veterinarian 

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that has ever ridden a horse or 
driven a horse. 

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So how is it possible that I've 
figured out all this stuff and 

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all these veterinarians, 
hundreds of thousands of equine 

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veterinarians that came before 
me have not solved these 

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problems? 
How is it possible? 

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Now, that's the real question, 
right? 

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And I think it goes back to 
mindset. 

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It is how I think, how I 
approach problems and how I look

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at a problem is different. 
And so any person thinking about

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being an equine veterinarian, 
it's a tough world, but it's 

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only tough. 
It's tough. 

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You have to be mentally like you
got to you got to be able to 

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take criticism right. 
You got to walk into a barn. 

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And this happens to me, a trader
I work for. 

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She is awesome because she never
remembers when like she always 

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forgets if the horses better. 
Like I can ask her, hey, how's 

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blah, blah, blah. 
And she's like, oh, this. 

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I didn't know there was a 
problem. 

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But if I walk in the bar and I'm
like, hey, how's Harry? 

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And she's like, she'll just lay 
into me like he's not better. 

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But you know, like I can't stand
the right brain. 

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I can't. 
You know, I'm like, OK, well, I 

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suck. 
You got to embrace the suck, you

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know, like you're going to suck.
It's OK, you're going to miss 

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things. 
It's OK, you're going to suck. 

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People are going to say this 
ain't any better. 

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But The thing is, you got to 
look at yourself and you got to 

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go. 
What am I missing, Right? 

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And I think that's the most 
important thing. 

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And it's OK if you don't know. 
If you don't know, you just say,

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I don't know. 
And I say that all the time. 

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I videotape every single day of 
my life, and I say it a lot. 

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I don't know. 
What are we going to do? 

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I don't know. 
Like, I just go with the flow. 

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I have an idea in my brain, I 
see the problem, but sometimes I

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don't know what the problem is. 
And we got to go through all 

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these things to figure out what 
is really the problem. 

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00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,200
And most of the time I there's 
not just one problem to me, it's

224
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:23,880
all connected. 
And so I'm dealing with 

225
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,200
variations of problems. 
And so that's where I realized 

226
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,360
you can't just have one thing. 
It's all connected. 

227
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,560
If there's a chip, yeah, you can
go in there and take the chip 

228
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,520
out, no problem. 
You know, easy peasy. 

229
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,560
But to become an equine 
veterinarian, you have to know 

230
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,520
what it feels like like to ride.
You need to know what it's like 

231
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,200
to drive a horse. 
You need to really, and you got 

232
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,440
to be a strong kind of 
personality where you have 

233
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,240
boundaries. 
There's a big problem in the 

234
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,680
equine world where ethics and 
morals and money, I mean, there 

235
00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:59,320
is so much money involved. 
That's the thing. 

236
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,280
There's so much money involved 
and that gets in the way of 

237
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,200
people doing the right thing and
it's something people don't talk

238
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,320
about. 
I talk about it because I'm an 

239
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,880
outsider to this profession. 
I see the dysfunction. 

240
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,080
You're making money and the 
trainers telling you what to do 

241
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,640
and they're winning and your 
name is on those horses that are

242
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,960
winning. 
And you're not going to say no 

243
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,760
to, you know, a $300,000 a year 
account, right? 

244
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,120
Even though you know it's 
unethical, even though you know 

245
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,200
the horse doesn't need it, even 
though you know, like, it's all 

246
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,680
these things, right? 
And I like you guys as a younger

247
00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:36,040
generation because you're going 
to say no, I love you guys. 

248
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,480
I love you guys because you're 
going to say no, no #1 you're 

249
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,120
not going to talk to me that 
way, right? 

250
00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,240
Our generation is very good at 
that. 

251
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,440
Like no is a full sentence. 
We will not suffer the way other

252
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,040
people did. 
I don't believe that people have

253
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,200
to suffer in order to earn their
position like that. 

254
00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,080
Or respect or respect. 
That should be out in the window

255
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,880
like Treat me well from. 
The beginning, right? 

256
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,760
Look what I did as a woman 
lineman, right? 

257
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,440
I dealt with more stuff than 
most people would ever be able 

258
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,600
to deal with. 
But I also believe, here's the 

259
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,480
other thing. 
If I couldn't do the job, I 

260
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,960
didn't belong to be out there. 
And that's the real truth. 

261
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,600
I did not, I don't blame the 
guys. 

262
00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:22,960
I, I did not blame the guys. 
If I couldn't pull my weight, if

263
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,040
I couldn't pick up anything that
they could pick up, if I 

264
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,720
couldn't rescue a £300 guy off 
of a pole, if I could not do the

265
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,080
job, I did not belong out there.
And the same thing goes with 

266
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,760
equine. 
If you physically cannot do the 

267
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:37,120
job, you should not be out 
there. 

268
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,840
You need to workout, you need to
get into shape. 

269
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,160
You got to be strong and you got
to be agile because these horses

270
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,160
will hurt you and they don't 
mean to hurt you. 

271
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:46,720
They're going to hurt you 
because they're painful. 

272
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,240
And that's The thing is there's 
so many aspects to this, but I, 

273
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,640
I love you guys as a younger 
generation because I agree with 

274
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,840
you. 
Like I paid the dues for women 

275
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,520
lineman. 
I'm the one I was strong enough 

276
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:00,960
to deal with all that. 
I still am. 

277
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,520
That's why I don't really care. 
I never care about what people 

278
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,600
think of me. 
I know I'm a wonderful person. 

279
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,160
I'm willing to help anyone do do
anything. 

280
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,720
You know, you stop by my farm, 
I'll stop whatever I'm doing. 

281
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,720
We'll hang out, whatever I'll 
cook. 

282
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,840
I don't care. 
I I don't being treating people 

283
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,440
with respect. 
And you know, that's important 

284
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,080
and you guys deserve that, but 
you also have to you have to 

285
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:23,880
work hard. 
Like that's The thing is, you 

286
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,920
know, a lot of people want an 
easy peasy ride, but it's not 

287
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,280
like that. 
If you're going to choose 

288
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,640
equine, you're going to be out 
there late some nights because 

289
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,560
the trainer is going to accept 
that you're going to go home at 

290
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:35,680
5:00. 
They're like more horses, man, 

291
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:36,640
Right? 
Sorry. 

292
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,920
Speaking of which, too, I wanted
to ask you about working with 

293
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,920
trainers. 
Ethics can get muddy. 

294
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,560
What cases did you have or was 
there? 

295
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,800
What case did you have that 
started horse first? 

296
00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,200
Or what experience with 
veterinarians started the horse 

297
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,000
first movement that you've had? 
Well, I'll be honest with you. 

298
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,440
Do you want to know? 
It started it. 

299
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,640
This is the truth. 
I was so PO D at the veterinary 

300
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,840
profession with the 2015 paper 
that came out that put the 

301
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,560
association that shivers is 
associated with cerebellar 

302
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,880
lesions in the Perkinje cells or
whatever deep central nuclei in 

303
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:18,560
the cerebellum. 
And it was actually a 

304
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,800
veterinarian. 
This is the story I was looking 

305
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,400
at. 
I've never told the story out 

306
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,960
loud. 
So I'm going to tell you guys as

307
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,680
veterinary students so that you 
guys can understand the things 

308
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,720
that the egos and equine the 
like. 

309
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,080
All the stupid stuff that like 
you say, people don't treat each

310
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,680
other with respect and we wonder
why people don't want to go in 

311
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,880
this profession. 
There's a lot of positive to it 

312
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,400
too. 
But I was going to look at a 

313
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,360
horse for a pre purchase for a 
client of mine. 

314
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:44,840
I didn't know the horse had 
shivers. 

315
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,720
The trainer I work for didn't 
know it had shivers, but it was 

316
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,280
price said something like 
750,000. 

317
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,920
And at that time for a meter, 
fifty horses like 1.31 point, 4 

318
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,880
million to buy get a horse that 
jumped a meter 50. 

319
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,720
OK, so we were there. 
We're looking at the horse and I

320
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,480
got introduced to the trainer 
through my, the trainer I work 

321
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,800
for. 
And I said, you know, she said 

322
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,720
why is this horse still cheap? 
It's got a great record. 

323
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,120
And he said, well, the horse has
shivers and I'm like, it was 

324
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,720
December 22nd, 2015. 
Actually, I have a medical 

325
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:15,760
record on it. 
That's how I know. 

326
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,600
And so I'm like, I just walk 
over to the horse and picked up 

327
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,640
its right hind leg and she 
shivered. 

328
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,920
Really good abduction. 
And then I picked up the left 

329
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,840
hind. 
It wasn't too bad. 

330
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,480
So I looked at the trainer. 
I'm like 3-4 treatments. 

331
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,400
It'll be good. 
Jump a meter 60 and she was 

332
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,400
like, cool, you know, So and 
then the trainer, the other 

333
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,960
trainer who looked at me really 
strange and I looked at him 

334
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:40,760
really strange. 
I'm like I said, has your 

335
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,840
veterinarian treated the horse 
for Shivers? 

336
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,520
And he goes, you can treat 
shivers. 

337
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,760
I'm like, well, have they 
treated it? 

338
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,600
And he goes, I don't know, she's
on the other aisle. 

339
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,880
So we walked through this fancy 
dancy barn with all these 

340
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,320
chandeliers and all this stuff. 
And I, I go to the other side 

341
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,960
and she's there injecting horses
and I'm tall and she's kind of 

342
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,040
like this height to me. 
And so my, the trainer I work 

343
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,400
for introduces me to her. 
This is my veterinarian, Audrey.

344
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,640
I'm dreadlock tattoos. 
You know, I'm dressed like a 

345
00:17:10,839 --> 00:17:12,880
regular person, blue collar 
worker. 

346
00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:16,440
And I said, what horse? 
I looked at the other trainer 

347
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,880
who's there and he says blah 
blah blah, mayor. 

348
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,440
And I said, well, what have you 
done with her? 

349
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,920
And she goes, well, I injected 
the coffins, the stifle, Hawks 

350
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,359
and the F side. 
And I said like, literally, I 

351
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,120
knew nothing. 
I said, well, did you treat the 

352
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:33,640
horse for shivers? 
And she looked at me like I was 

353
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,920
a complete idiot. 
Like literally she folded her 

354
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,320
arms and said Stephanie Valberg 
published a paper blah blah, 

355
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,760
blah, blah, blah, blah. 
December 2020 fifth 15. 

356
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,800
Sorry. 
And I'm like, OK, that's right 

357
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,160
now 2015 And she gave me the 
title divers associated with 

358
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,080
blah, blah, blah. 
And then she said for Kenji cell

359
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,040
and I'm like, what in the world 
is that? 

360
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,320
You know, here's my brain. 
What is that? 

361
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,480
And then she said deep central 
nuclei, like she tied up 

362
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,080
randomly said the whole paper 
entitled, you know, I'm like, Oh

363
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,520
my God, she's so much smarter 
than I am, but who cares? 

364
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,360
So the deep central nuclei came 
out. 

365
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:06,960
And then she said the word 
cerebellum. 

366
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,440
And I was like, there's a word I
know. 

367
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,960
OK. 
And then she I said, I'm like, I

368
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,880
don't care. 
Like whatever paper came out. 

369
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,560
And then she said, but I knew 
what cerebellum was. 

370
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,880
And she leaned into me with her 
arms crossed, literally leaned 

371
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,480
into me. 
And I thought, I mean, I'm being

372
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,800
a lineman at this point. 
I'm thinking I'm so going to 

373
00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,200
head bite you if you get closer,
right? 

374
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,720
Like I'm, I'm just honest. 
And she leaned into me and she 

375
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,120
said, and if you were a doctor, 
you would know that if it's in 

376
00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:38,560
their cerebellum, there is no 
treatment. 

377
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,960
And I'm like, I turn, I almost 
run over the trainer. 

378
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,960
I can see the horse out in the 
arena. 

379
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:45,760
I'm not serious. 
This is how it started. 

380
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,000
I just walk and the trainer 
comes running up and she tells 

381
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,240
the story actually better than I
do. 

382
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,960
And she she runs up and she 
goes, holy, I can't believe you 

383
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,240
didn't punch her. 
And I said, if I was a lineman, 

384
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,040
I probably would have, but I'm a
veterinarian, so I have to be 

385
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:00,760
more responsible about my 
actions. 

386
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,360
And then here's the other 
trainer running up and then and 

387
00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:07,320
the trainer's getting on the the
mirror and he runs up and he 

388
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,840
goes, are you serious? 
You can treat shivers. 

389
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,960
And I look, I turn to him 
because I'm mad. 

390
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,040
Like I'm like, who are you to 
get up in my face and treat me 

391
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,680
like I'm a stupid idiot? 
I mean, these are my thought 

392
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,480
process going through my brain. 
And I turned to him and I said, 

393
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,680
why would I say I could do 
something that can? 

394
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,960
I said to the trader, how many 
of these horses have we had? 

395
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,840
And we fixed. 
She goes, well, that's why I was

396
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,800
6 or 7. 
They're all great. 

397
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,360
And he goes, Oh my God, would 
you treat this horse? 

398
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,640
And I got another one in the 
barn that I can't sell because 

399
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,680
it's got shivers really bad. 
And I said to him, I turned to 

400
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,800
him directly right to his face. 
And I said, I am so sorry for 

401
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,400
these horses, but why don't you 
go talk to your academic vet and

402
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,640
let her figure it out. 
That's literally how it all 

403
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:54,200
started that I know you think 
about this, you guys, This is 

404
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,040
why I'm telling you this story 
is because I went home, it was 

405
00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,640
late. 
I called a friend of mine that 

406
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,680
works out of Washington State, 
Kathy St. 

407
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,880
No, she did the research with 
me. 

408
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,120
I said what in the world is this
stupid paper? 

409
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:09,680
And she said we had it in book 
club and we threw it out saying 

410
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,440
there is no way that anyone is 
going to believe that a 

411
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,600
cerebellar lesion is associated 
with shivers clinical signs. 

412
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,280
Well, guess what? 
The whole equine veterinary 

413
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,320
world adopted that. 
Over 5 cases and I couldn't 

414
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:23,720
help, I couldn't have that 
happening. 

415
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,240
And literally that's is why I 
started the podcast. 

416
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,000
That is exactly why I started 
the podcast and I realized I was

417
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,640
doing things that nobody else 
was doing. 

418
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,960
I didn't know this, you guys. 
I honestly did not know that no 

419
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,600
other veterinarian in the world 
was treating sugars until that 

420
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,160
day, December 22nd, 2015 out 
number one, there's a lot wrong 

421
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,520
here, right? 
How other veterinarians treat 

422
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,440
people, right? 
Equine veterinarians treat each 

423
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,920
other how veterinarians treat 
each other, period. 

424
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,760
It goes back to I love you guys 
as a younger generation, but 

425
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,360
this is what you get yourself 
into with the equine world. 

426
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,240
People don't play nice because 
there's a lot of money involved 

427
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,000
and we should be helping each 
other. 

428
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,880
But that's what started 
literally, that is exactly what 

429
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,520
started all of this. 
Somebody getting up in my face 

430
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,400
and telling me if I was a 
doctor, knowing full well I was 

431
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,440
pretty much calling me an idiot,
right? 

432
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,840
So you don't do that to someone 
like me because I'm going to 

433
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,200
prove you wrong. 
You know, I just don't. 

434
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,560
And that honestly, I'm so I have
to be honest with you. 

435
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,040
I'm so grateful to that person. 
I actually know who she is now. 

436
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,600
I didn't know for I only found 
out like a couple years ago. 

437
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,800
I don't really care. 
It doesn't matter to me. 

438
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,640
I'm so grateful to that person. 
Do you know why? 

439
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,120
Because she made me a better 
veterinarian. 

440
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,720
So there's a lot of good coming 
out of this story. 

441
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,640
I am so glad it happened. 
There's a lot of wrong with it, 

442
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,160
but there's a lot of good that 
has happened. 

443
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,720
And that's what I need to tell 
you guys is there's going to be 

444
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,160
the these wrong things that 
happened to you. 

445
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,880
But look at it from the bigger 
perspective. 

446
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,840
If she had not done that to me, 
nobody would know who I was. 

447
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,480
We wouldn't be doing this 
interview. 

448
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,960
Nobody, I wouldn't have come up 
with body lameness. 

449
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:03,360
I wouldn't have. 
Nobody would know. 

450
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:06,840
I'd just be living in my little 
bubble of my clients and nobody 

451
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,880
would know who Audrey was. 
So there's a lot of good you 

452
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,640
guys. 
So that's what I mean at the 

453
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,680
moment. 
It was like, Huna, you're lucky 

454
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,200
I didn't head butt you, you 
know, like I'm a lineman. 

455
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,960
I mean, it's the truth, but that
that's what I mean, there's, I 

456
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,320
did it because I wanted to. 
I knew I was doing something 

457
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,120
that other people weren't and I 
was listening. 

458
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,200
I was learning all these things 
for horses and that just kind 

459
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,080
of, I was like, this can't 
happen. 

460
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,520
They can't be killing these 
horses and sending their brains 

461
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,440
off, their several brains off 
and finding nothing because 

462
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,680
there's never been another paper
about it, right? 

463
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,760
If it was true right there, God 
knows they had a lot of 

464
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,840
Budweiser, Clydesdales and other
horses euthanized for nothing. 

465
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,880
Or they could have just treated.
They could have. 

466
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,840
And I didn't know then either. 
So, you know, there's a lot of 

467
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,000
one. 
It could have, should have, 

468
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:54,800
whatever. 
It doesn't matter. 

469
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,440
We have to always look at how 
that happened for a reason to 

470
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,880
push me to where I'm at now to 
be able to help you guys. 

471
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,360
And these are sometimes the 
things you have to go through to

472
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:08,000
look at the bigger picture 
instead of just looking at that 

473
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,920
as a negative thing, right? 
It's kind of like learning all 

474
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,280
the stuff you're learning. 
Look at the bigger picture when 

475
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,720
you're getting out in those days
where you're like, this sucks, 

476
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,160
but tomorrow's going to be a 
better day. 

477
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:20,160
Yeah. 
I think that no matter what 

478
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,360
profession you go into, some are
worse than others. 

479
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,360
Like I think we've talked about 
it with Doctor Quammen. 

480
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,640
I think it gets really bad with 
the vet techs. 

481
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,480
And I haven't been in the equine
vet clinic world so much as I've

482
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,200
just, you know, kind of seen the
Breeders side of it. 

483
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,280
And even that can get really 
crazy. 

484
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,920
And like, I know what you mean. 
I've been to the horse shows, 

485
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:40,480
even like a little 4H horse 
show. 

486
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,040
Oh, my goodness, Tony, it gets 
crazy. 

487
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,560
I don't know what it is. 
And it's to the point where in 

488
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,040
vet school we're learning about 
Crazy Horse people. 

489
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,640
That's a thing. 
There's crazy dog people, 

490
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,400
there's just crazy people. 
There's crazy people in general,

491
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,920
but there seems to be a high 
proportion of horse people that 

492
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,240
like to think. 
I'm not saying they don't, but 

493
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:00,120
not all of them. 
Do. 

494
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,720
You know, there's this dynamic 
between veterinarians and horse 

495
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,080
owners where horse owners tend 
to think, OK, well, I want to do

496
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,000
it this way. 
And the vet says, well, I think 

497
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,560
you should do it this way. 
And nobody can find an 

498
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,040
agreeance. 
And I think that's another huge 

499
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,720
turn off to go into equine 
because even I don't know I was 

500
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,400
giving. 
I like I've been telling this 

501
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,960
story recently because I think 
it's hilarious, but I was giving

502
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,560
a 4H presentation to like 9 year
olds about parasites and horses 

503
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,920
last semester for a volunteer 
service learning whatever. 

504
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,320
Like I'm just giving this little
tiny 15 minute lecture about 

505
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,760
parasite prevention, dewormer, 
grooming, the basics to 9 year 

506
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,400
olds. 
And at the end I gave him a 

507
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,440
little quiz and I was like, OK, 
So what did we learn about 

508
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,280
today? 
Like what are some methods of 

509
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,440
prevention that I talked about? 
I said in nine year old terms, I

510
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,080
don't remember what I said. 
And then I, you know, they 

511
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,320
raised their hands and one of 
them was like, oh, dewormer 

512
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,040
grooming. 
And then the last person, she 

513
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,680
was like diatomaceous earth. 
And I was like, sure, whoever 

514
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,200
told you that? 
Sure. 

515
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:58,960
Like I didn't say that, but 
cool. 

516
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:01,280
If you want to. 
I'm a bed student. 

517
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,240
I'm a first year Bed student. 
I'm not the end all be all. 

518
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,160
I'm not saying you're wrong, but
I have not I don't think as of 

519
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,000
right now that that's accurate 
or prevention method. 

520
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,160
But go ahead. 
You know, some of the I mean, 

521
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,040
it's a really good point because
the problem is, is that in small

522
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,720
animal we can give people more 
answers because we can do a dog,

523
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,520
a gram, Catagram, hamsterogram, 
snakeogram, right? 

524
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,000
We can do all these grams, we 
can throw them under any machine

525
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,040
and go there's the problem. 
I think part of the issue with 

526
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,040
the equine world is that we as 
veterinarians have not been able

527
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,680
to give people answers. 
So if you can't give people 

528
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,440
answers and the trainer and the 
rider, whether it's an amateur 

529
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,480
or a professional trainer, they 
get back on their horse and they

530
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:50,600
go, it still feels like crap. 
I just spent $1500 of my hard 

531
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,520
earned money and it still feels 
the same. 

532
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,240
So that's kind of the problem, 
right? 

533
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,920
And I think that is something 
that has gotten the veterinary 

534
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,160
profession into trouble, to be 
honest with you, because nobody 

535
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,000
can give these people answers. 
And about especially lameness, 

536
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,840
body lameness and why a horse is
crooked, why a horse, you know, 

537
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,760
only hops and transitions. 
Nobody's been giving them 

538
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,960
answers. 
And that is the problem. 

539
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,880
That's why people make their own
stuff up and that's why they 

540
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,280
don't listen to the 
veterinarians. 

541
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,440
Maybe not a nine year old, but 
Paris pathology. 

542
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,760
But it's OK. 
It's the same problem. 

543
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,880
It's the same problem. 
They want a solution and they're

544
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,880
not finding it. 
That's right. 

545
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,320
And that is the most important 
thing, you guys, is we have not 

546
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,160
been able to give these people 
answers. 

547
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,160
We're not. 
We can find this teeny weeny 

548
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,520
little hot spur and we're going 
to say that is your problem, why

549
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,800
your horse feels horrible. 
They inject the horse, you get 

550
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,840
back on it and it's like this 
still feels like crap. 

551
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,960
The horse's haunches are still 
to the right. 

552
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,960
You go back to the veterinarian,
right? 

553
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:00,560
What do they say? 
Well, we missed this, blah, 

554
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,320
blah, blah. 
They got to move more stifle 

555
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,480
injections and block your horse 
more and everything you get back

556
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,760
on your horse after you spend 
another $1500. 

557
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,960
Now we're at 3 grand of course, 
still doing the same thing. 

558
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,360
It's still dropping out behind 
haunches are to the right. 

559
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,440
This is this is the issue. 
This is why we're in the 

560
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,800
situation we're in with people 
not wanting to go into the 

561
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,680
equine veterinary world, and 
that's why a lot of people do 

562
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,120
not have respect for vetner 
equine veterinarians is. 

563
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,400
There an approach they can have 
instead. 

564
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,800
So I was just taught about 
injections for like the first 

565
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,560
time and they're like, you're 
going to be doing this a lot and

566
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,080
I and I know that because that 
is the fall back of the industry

567
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:48,320
and sure it does provide relief,
but then my thing is they come 

568
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,880
back to these issues. 
It's only a matter of time. 

569
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,520
So we're putting a Band-Aid on 
an issue and also putting them 

570
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:01,160
at risk for other things. 
So what do you do instead, as in

571
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,680
your realm of veterinary 
medicine, to treat horses? 

572
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,960
So when we ride a horse, they're
supposed to be straight, right? 

573
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,240
Just like this line right behind
me, straight. 

574
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:12,520
This is a horse. 
If they're crooked, there's 

575
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,160
something really wrong. 
And so that's what we haven't 

576
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,200
learned. 
And the distal limbs, yes, they 

577
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,320
have issues down there, but the 
majority of them come because 

578
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,720
their body is not straight. 
They need to be straight. 

579
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:28,080
We ride them to be straight. 
So we're not nobody teaches bio 

580
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,240
mechanics. 
And so that's, so you, you have 

581
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,440
a body that's not straight. 
It's kind of like a person with 

582
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,000
back pain. 
Their knees start wearing out on

583
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,120
the, if you have right sided 
back pain, your left knee is 

584
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,800
going to start wearing out. 
It's all the compensatory things

585
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,000
that you can inject their hocks.
They'll feel better for a couple

586
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,640
weeks because the joints, the 
lower joints are not working. 

587
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,440
They're taking the load of a 
biomechanical dysfunction of the

588
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,320
axial skeleton and people don't 
even understand how the axial 

589
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,600
skeleton works together. 
And that's what I kind of have 

590
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,520
figured out. 
And I had to figure out because 

591
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,960
I ride my client horses. 
I get on them. 

592
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,440
I'm like, this feels like crap. 
Where's that coming from? 

593
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,520
Right? 
And why is a horse like that? 

594
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,840
I mean, you just, you know, I'm 
just a real person. 

595
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,040
I just go, man, that feel that, 
and it may look beautiful, like 

596
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,360
a horse may look beautiful on 
the lunge line. 

597
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,760
And then you get on them and it 
feels like horrible. 

598
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,080
They'll just throw you around 
where you can't have your 

599
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,960
balance. 
That's that's all body lameness.

600
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,520
You guys, if you get on a horse 
and their diagonals are 

601
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,880
different, it's body lanes, 
they're body lane. 

602
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,080
They're not foot limb, they're 
not limping, they're not any of 

603
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,520
that. 
So I think there's a lot to 

604
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,600
this, but you know, I, I work 
for trainers and I listen to my 

605
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,200
trainers and I train my trainers
to understand that if a horse is

606
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,080
resistant doing something, it's 
because there's something wrong.

607
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,760
And that's the real truth. 
And the veterinary equine 

608
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,200
veterinary profession is really 
horrible at understanding that. 

609
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,320
It's really, really horrible. 
It's so horrible at it horrible.

610
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,880
That's why I'm different. 
You know, that's why I have so 

611
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,440
much respect for Sue Dyson and 
the ethograms. 

612
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,400
That's the beginning. 
You've been mentioning body 

613
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,120
lameness. 
Could you kind of give us a 

614
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,360
definition per se? 
And like, what are you looking 

615
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,960
for? 
When you say body lameness, what

616
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,280
does that mean? 
And when you decide what part of

617
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,840
the body or all of the body, 
what are your next steps? 

618
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,000
Well, body lameness is axial 
skeleton lameness. 

619
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,760
I start calling the body 
lameness because my literally my

620
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,160
clients, the trainers I work 
for, they're like axial what? 

621
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,280
What does that mean? 
And you want to know something? 

622
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:33,160
The body workers know this 
stuff. 

623
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,440
They know it better than 
veterinarians. 

624
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,600
I love training body workers and
physiotherapists. 

625
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,480
I love training them. 
I love teaching and training 

626
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,520
them. 
They are so much easier to train

627
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,360
and teach than veterinarians. 
Now isn't that interesting? 

628
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,680
But body lameness is only axial 
skeleton and the body is in 

629
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,280
three sections. 
And that's a whole complex how 

630
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,280
it's all connected because it's 
all connected, connected. 

631
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,080
And you got to understand how 
it's connected and what, how it 

632
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,000
all works together. 
And that's what I'm teaching in 

633
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,360
the fall. 
I'm right writing a book on bio 

634
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,880
mechanics so that trainers can 
read it, students can read it, 

635
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:10,600
everybody can read it. 
It's not going to be 

636
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,520
complicated. 
It's it's not going to be all 

637
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,120
those crazy. 
I can't read some of these 

638
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,520
veterinary books, can you? 
I mean, you guys are in the 

639
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,440
midst of it. 
I can't read some of the stuff 

640
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,400
that's up here in my cabinet. 
I'm like, I don't try to, is the

641
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,160
answer. 
I don't think I've ever tried 

642
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,920
to. 
I go with what my professor 

643
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,560
teaches me. 
That's what's going to be on the

644
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,160
test. 
And then if I feel like reading 

645
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,320
something crazy, I'll read like 
I just read Cowboy Medicine. 

646
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,200
My grandmother, he's probably 
watching this. 

647
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,480
Hi, Grandma. 
She got me a book called Cowboy 

648
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,560
Medicine, and it's by Doctor 
Paul Christensen. 

649
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,040
Yeah. 
And it was like OG. 

650
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,200
It's a little bit outdated. 
Some of the stuff I was reading,

651
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,000
I was like, we don't, we don't 
do that anymore. 

652
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,720
I know. 
That being said, it was still 

653
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,320
very interesting and it was 
about Canada and like OG cowboy,

654
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,600
like working cows, 24/7 
C-section, low technology 

655
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,680
medicine in the 70s, eighties, 
90s. 

656
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:09,720
So it was definitely very 
interesting. 

657
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,640
But that's the type of stuff 
that I prefer to read instead of

658
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,800
like, I don't know, papers. 
I probably should. 

659
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,520
That's probably more beneficial.
But right now what's interesting

660
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:20,880
is I want to hear people's real 
experiences. 

661
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,840
And in the book he would talk 
about here's what this client 

662
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,600
thought about this and here's my
real life experiences. 

663
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,560
I think that that's beneficial 
to me, even though it's not 

664
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,920
really applicable because he was
doing this 30 years ago. 

665
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:36,160
And it, it's, it is applicable. 
I'm telling you guys, all I have

666
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,840
is my hands, my eyes, my ears, 
taste, smell. 

667
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,600
That's how I do everything. 
I mean, I have an ultrasound 

668
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,680
machine and shockwave machine 
and that's it. 

669
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,360
If I need X-rays, I send them 
off. 

670
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:47,680
I don't need to have an X-ray 
machine. 

671
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,160
I don't really care. 
I don't ever see a horse X-ray 

672
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,760
ever again in my life. 
I know I will, and I'm not even 

673
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:54,440
done. 
You're going to. 

674
00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,120
Yeah, I know, I know, I know. 
And I literally still have to 

675
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,520
test on it because we're doing, 
I think we just did the thorax 

676
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,320
this week or something. 
So I'm still learning it. 

677
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,240
But I was telling y'all before 
the podcast, like we learned all

678
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,680
about the different, just 
learning the different views, 

679
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,240
just the views of the distal 
limb. 

680
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,080
To diagnose lameness is like one
of the hardest things I've had 

681
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,000
to do in vet school for no 
reason. 

682
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,400
How is it possible that the 
veterinary profession is latched

683
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,920
on that the limbs are the most 
important thing in a horse? 

684
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,240
I mean, we ride the horse to 
move the limbs. 

685
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,600
We don't ride the limbs to move 
the horse. 

686
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,920
I mean, I'd love to see a horse,
a limb of a horse saddled up, 

687
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,480
right? 
Like, just go on, get on there. 

688
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,840
Let's see what happens to you. 
It makes no sense to me. 

689
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,360
Like it. 
It makes absolutely no sense, 

690
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,880
especially, you know, but the 
old ways, I find the old ways 

691
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,240
people have more common. 
It goes back to the common sense

692
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,440
building that every veterinary 
school has to have. 

693
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,720
The old ways were common sense. 
Now some, some of the stuff is 

694
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,680
outdated, but it's still, it's 
the fact that it's a horse. 

695
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,640
I don't care what discipline a 
horse is, it does for a living. 

696
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,320
Whatever it is a horse, right? 
A cow is different than a horse,

697
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,960
not only intestinally, but 
everything else, right? 

698
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,000
It's different. 
So you're going to have 

699
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,520
different issues. 
But a horse is a horse, whether 

700
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,239
it's a miniature horse, a mule 
is a horse, a zebra is a horse. 

701
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,400
It's a equid species, you know, 
body lameness's axioskeleton and

702
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,400
how it all works together. 
And I, I forget about the 

703
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,440
toothpicks down there because 
they really, because you, you 

704
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,120
know, you can look at a year's 
worth of history just looking at

705
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,000
their feet. 
That is a year that is one year 

706
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:34,679
tells you everything about a 
horse. 

707
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,560
I can look at a horse's feet and
say the horse and people are 

708
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,560
amazed by this. 
They go, I'm like, OK, you have 

709
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,239
a lead change problem from left 
to right. 

710
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,360
I haven't even touched the 
horse. 

711
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,480
I just walk up to the horse and 
look at it and they're like, 

712
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,960
yeah, the left lead is better 
than the right lead and left to 

713
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,400
right lead change sucks. 
And they're like, how did you 

714
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,520
know that? 
And I'm like, I'm definitely not

715
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,800
a savant. 
I just look at the horses feet. 

716
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,840
Gives me a years worth of 
history and I look at the body 

717
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,160
and that's all you need to do. 
I can tell people how a horse 

718
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,560
rides by just looking at their 
body and their feet. 

719
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,160
What kinds of things are you 
looking for when you're looking 

720
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,560
at the feet? 
Are you looking at kind of the 

721
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,800
wear and if it's uneven or what 
are you looking for? 

722
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,920
One being bigger than the other,
weight bearing, right? 

723
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,640
Everything you look at 
musculature, if they're 

724
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,600
atrophied someplace or if 
they're asymmetrical someplace, 

725
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,320
if their neck is hollow, it 
tells you the whole story. 

726
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,960
If there's sweat pattern 
someplace versus another. 

727
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,320
I mean, people are always amazed
by it. 

728
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:33,000
I'm like, this is all they do. 
I'm quite bored in practice. 

729
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,640
Be honest with you. 
I never get well, I have, I have

730
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,680
some, I have a challenge in case
here's now, which I love. 

731
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,320
It's the only thing that 
stimulates me. 

732
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,160
Things that are really, really 
challenging, you know, besides 

733
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,280
talking to you guys. 
And I enjoy doing that too, you 

734
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,560
know, teaching people and 
helping people. 

735
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,240
I really enjoy doing that. 
But you know, it's just it's 

736
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,280
learning, it's actually 
observing. 

737
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,720
You know, it's like you've got 
to sit back and like I said, you

738
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:59,360
need to look at horses and you 
got to learn what they are and 

739
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,760
what's normal, what's abnormal 
people, the veterinary you are 

740
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,200
not going to learn what normal 
is. 

741
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,560
And that's kind of the issue 
I'd. 

742
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,000
Love to hear about. 
I mean, I'll give a little 

743
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,520
preface as to my background and 
what drew me to your work. 

744
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:17,800
So I grew up with horses, riding
them, a big, big proponent of 

745
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,320
welfare and correct husbandry 
because I believe that is the 

746
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,800
source of like 90% of our issues
in the equine world is how we're

747
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,080
managing them. 
But on the riding, I got a 

748
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,760
chronically lame horse that I 
was telling you about. 

749
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,520
And I was told really there were
no options. 

750
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,840
And and I was like, well, he's 
only 12, so I'm kind of going to

751
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,440
refuse to believe that. 
So I started doing like talking 

752
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,080
to body workers, talking to 
chiropractors, people who 

753
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,520
weren't going to tell me no, but
they were going to say, well, 

754
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,720
let's adjust him. 
Let's give it time. 

755
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,400
Also, the body takes joints take
a long time to heal. 

756
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,080
And I was like, OK, then I was 
told you have to do hooves. 

757
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,560
So then I went to farrier school
for like a week. 

758
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:10,120
I am no expert by any means but 
I trimmed mine and I tried pay 

759
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,880
attention to like how their 
hopes change and he's not 

760
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,680
perfectly sound. 
I think majority of horses 

761
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:21,920
aren't but I can ride him and he
is happy under saddle and I 

762
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,640
think that's what people are 
ignoring. 

763
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,880
Like when I get on my horse is 
happy about it. 

764
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:28,680
He actually doesn't let me get 
off. 

765
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,480
He wants to keep going. 
You know, that's a really 

766
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,160
important point, what you just 
said. 

767
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,000
I think I see. 
So how many horses, I think we 

768
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,160
manage it like show, I only do 
show horses. 

769
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,400
So they're managed very, very 
well. 

770
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,080
They're taken care of very well.
So but I think the starting 

771
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,320
process like how we're starting 
horses, we're starting them so 

772
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,640
young, we're putting so much 
pressure on them. 

773
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,680
We're using I'll fitting 
equipment. 

774
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,720
They're not happy. 
Like they're not happy. 

775
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,280
We're tying up to a wall for 8 
hours, right. 

776
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,160
Like people are tying them 
around for a problem that is an 

777
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,480
injury and we're not accepting 
that young horses get injured. 

778
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,120
I mean, it's crazy to me. 
Like a kid can get hurt playing 

779
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,760
peewee football, right? 
Like, but we can't accept a 

780
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,760
horse gets hurt when it's a 
year, you know, 18 months old to

781
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:20,440
two years old. 
And but what you said about 

782
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,680
being happy, I see so many 
horses that are so miserable, so

783
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,240
painful and they're out there 
doing their job, but their ears 

784
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,240
are back, their tail swishing 
their heads up over their back. 

785
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:34,240
And it's it shouldn't be that 
way. 

786
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,160
Like it shouldn't be that way. 
We as a profession should have, 

787
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,560
we wouldn't be talking about 
social licensing if the 

788
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,640
veterinary profession would have
stepped up and said this is not 

789
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,560
OK. 
We know these horses are in 

790
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,280
pain. 
But see that that's the big 

791
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,200
lapse. 
They didn't even know the horses

792
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,160
were in pain. 
The veterinary profession didn't

793
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:52,680
even know the horses were in 
pain. 

794
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,960
They just said, I mean, still to
this day, veterinarians say 

795
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:59,240
horses are behavioral. 
I'm like, Oh my God, you have 

796
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,760
got to be better. 
You have got to be better as a 

797
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,200
veterinarian to not understand 
that your patient is so painful 

798
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,120
and you say it's behavioral 
because you can't pick up its 

799
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,960
right front leg. 
Unacceptable to me. 

800
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,240
There's a reason why a horse 
can't pick up its leg, 

801
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:15,600
especially a trained horse that 
knows how to pick up its legs, 

802
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,120
right? 
So I think those are all the 

803
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,360
things that if a horse is happy,
they want to keep going. 

804
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,400
They want to take you for a ride
wherever. 

805
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,480
They don't care where you go. 
They want to go in the ring and 

806
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,280
compete. 
They want to do their job. 

807
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,800
They want to be with their 
human. 

808
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,840
But any horse that's girthy, any
horse that can't pick up a leg, 

809
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,120
that doesn't like to be groomed,
that tosses its head when you 

810
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,280
bridle it all, all these things,
You bring the saddle out and 

811
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,400
it's pinning its ears, it's 
moving in the cross eyes. 

812
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:45,960
It's painful. 
That's where the exam should 

813
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,320
start. 
As a veterinarian is in the 

814
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,040
stall. 
You should be watching your 

815
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,080
patient in the stall, slowing 
down, watching your watching 

816
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,520
your patient in the stall, and 
then the whole process of 

817
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,440
grooming, tacking up everything.
And that's where I'm different 

818
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,480
because. 
I never rush. 

819
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,240
I don't, I don't rush. 
Everybody loves it because we 

820
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:08,320
all get to know each other 
really well because we're all 

821
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,720
just standing there at stall 
watching the horse and talking. 

822
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,680
We bring the horse out, they get
groom right? 

823
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,880
All this stuff. 
You have to see these things. 

824
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:21,280
And so we're missing all this. 
And that's where you guys can be

825
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,000
different. 
That's where you can be 

826
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,360
different is you can change that
to make people aware that this 

827
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,840
starts in their where they live 
in their house. 

828
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,920
It's like watching your 
grandmother that has a bad hip 

829
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,040
get up out of the chair, right? 
It's not easy. 

830
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,080
So you know, it's, it's a 
observing I observe so much. 

831
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,280
That's what I do. 
I can see it's a curse too. 

832
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,360
It's it's a real curse. 
But but for you guys, that's 

833
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,640
where you can be different. 
That's where you can start 

834
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,200
teaching and understanding that 
it starts go go to the large 

835
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,640
Animal Hospital and just watch 
horses in their stall. 

836
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,080
You'll see a pattern. 
You'll start recognizing the 

837
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,920
pattern of pain. 
And I think me working at the 

838
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,680
University of Minnesota, I saw 
these horses in their stalls 

839
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,240
post surgery be prior to surgery
for lameness with Doctor Turner,

840
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,200
how painful they were. 
And I knew the signs already, 

841
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,120
but because I'm, you know, I'm a
horse person. 

842
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,600
What do you feel for when you 
said that you ride your clients 

843
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,000
horses? 
I think that would shock 

844
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,400
majority of equine vets. 
What do you feel for Michaela 

845
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,760
and I? 
Both ride, by the way. 

846
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,240
What they feel like, like a 
horse should be straight. 

847
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,200
If you get on a horse and their 
neck is over here and you got to

848
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,720
pull in the left rein because 
their neck is over here to the 

849
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:41,680
right, there's something wrong. 
If if you walk and their walk is

850
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,000
like they're just this, they're 
lame. 

851
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,480
If you're being shifted over to 
the right or shifted over to the

852
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,920
left, they're lame. 
There's something wrong. 

853
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,280
They're body lane. 
OK, if they're not straight, if 

854
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,760
they don't push behind, if they 
drop out or if they're diagonals

855
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,440
different, they're lame. 
That's body lameness. 

856
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:01,320
They might not be head bobbing 
lame. 

857
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,200
They may not any of that. 
But a horse should be 

858
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,440
symmetrical. 
They should just flow. 

859
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,640
I mean, riding a horse that has 
a beautiful trot, you just sit 

860
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,440
there. 
You're just like, hello world, 

861
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,800
how are you? 
This is so nice. 

862
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,680
And then you Cantor and you're 
like, yeah, you know, you can 

863
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,760
just sit there all day long just
cantering along. 

864
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:22,520
You want to lead change? 
Here we go. 

865
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,880
Lead change canner in the next 
way, right? 

866
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,280
That's what a horse should feel 
like. 

867
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,160
They're born symmetrical. 
You know, they're born for 

868
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,240
symmetry. 
They're not born for asymmetry. 

869
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:35,160
Sometimes you'd like to think 
that the way that they get hurt.

870
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,840
I have these on my farm and I 
tell people this all the time. 

871
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,600
They complain about how much 
horses cost and I say, OK, 

872
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,320
here's my thing about horses is 
these two are the cheapest 

873
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,840
horses you'll ever buy and you 
still can ride them. 

874
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,520
And the best thing to do is dig 
a hole, throw your money in, 

875
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:56,800
throw your money in just I mean 
literally just keep keep 

876
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,440
throwing your money in and then 
one day, unfortunately, you're 

877
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,520
going to throw your horse in 
there and then finally you can 

878
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,960
bury that's horses. 
Besides these two, you don't 

879
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,800
cost anything. 
They cost me nothing except for 

880
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,200
actually they were presents from
my neighbor page if. 

881
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,320
You were in charge of the 
veterinary schools. 

882
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:19,600
Besides adding a common sense 
building, how would you teach 

883
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:21,200
lameness and? 
What do you? 

884
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,440
Want to instill in our 
generation? 

885
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,160
Bio mechanics people do not 
understand how a horse works. 

886
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,040
They don't. 
They don't understand. 

887
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,120
This is why we're in. 
This is why people are so 

888
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,760
dissatisfied many times with 
their job as an equine 

889
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,400
veterinarian. 
It's because you can't. 

890
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,040
You can't explain things to 
people. 

891
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,400
People come to me, I can explain
to them well, This is why. 

892
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,120
This is why I can talk to the 
trainer. 

893
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,600
This is why their heads this, 
this is what we need to do. 

894
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,560
And then they get back on the 
horse and the horse is better 

895
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,680
because I can explain why. 
And then it's just learning how 

896
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:55,960
a horse works, how it actually 
should work and why we're having

897
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,960
the issues that we're having and
being able to give people 

898
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,320
answers of I have to do this 
first. 

899
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,120
Yeah, I got to do this next and 
explain to him there are no 

900
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,040
quick fixes. 
We got to accept that there's 

901
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,400
injuries that happen and it 
takes a long time to come back, 

902
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,240
sometimes years, years as an 
athlete and the equine world is 

903
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:15,800
not for you guys. 
You don't understand bio 

904
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,440
mechanics. 
So you can't give people a 

905
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,720
timeline of all this is really 
bad. 

906
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,800
And we're looking at a year to 
two years and they're like, 

907
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,440
you're kidding me. 
I just spent, you know, 600,000 

908
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,520
for this horse. 
Well, that's the reality. 

909
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,040
I because your horse 
unfortunately has a serious 

910
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,760
injury and it's Axioskeleton and
none of this gets better 

911
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,920
quickly. 
You know, it's not like a broken

912
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,400
bone. 
So, you know, it's all these 

913
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,320
things that if I was going to 
teach, I'd start the structure 

914
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,560
by teaching bio mechanics and 
having people understand how a 

915
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,800
horse works and then teaching 
them at the same time, watching 

916
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,960
a horse in a stall, watching 
them walk out of a stall. 

917
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,160
Just teaching people to slow 
down and observe your patient 

918
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,960
and to listen and to to do a 
physical exam. 

919
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,680
Like people do not know how to 
do physical exams. 

920
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,920
They don't know how to interpret
what the reaction of the horses.

921
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,200
And to me, it's if it doesn't 
hurt, they don't react. 

922
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,760
But it's also how people palpate
and they don't train you guys 

923
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:20,600
how to actually palpate or how 
to do range of motion or how to 

924
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:24,080
understand bio mechanics. 
That's where I would start. 

925
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:26,680
All you have to do is look. 
It's all there. 

926
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,560
They will their bodies will 
never lie to you. 

927
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,200
What's there is there and never 
let anyone, this is one thing 

928
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,040
I'm going to tell all you guys 
is don't let anyone tell you 

929
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,600
that what you think and what you
see and what you hear and what 

930
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,680
you know. 
Don't let anyone swayed you out 

931
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,960
of it. 
That is your, that's your side 

932
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,680
of it. 
That's what you hear, that's 

933
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,920
what you smell. 
It may be different than them. 

934
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:53,400
There's not a right and wrong in
that. 

935
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,520
Ever. 
Let anyone tell you that what 

936
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,600
you see and hear and taste and 
smell what you think is wrong. 

937
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,560
Trust your intuition. 
It's there. 

938
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,520
Don't let anyone persuade you 
out of it. 

939
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:04,880
Anyone. 
Anyone. 

940
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,040
Because God knows I tried enough
horses up and down the hallway 

941
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:13,600
for Doctor Turner and I was on 
95% of the time. 

942
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,440
Why? 
I realized I wasn't, I really 

943
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,720
wasn't. 
And I didn't let I was older. 

944
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,200
I didn't let anyone persuade me 
out of it because you couldn't 

945
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,440
persuade someone like me not to 
accept that what I hear and see 

946
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,120
and think is what I see. 
You know, I'm just not that 

947
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,600
person that's going to be 
influenced by it. 

948
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,360
So that's what I'm telling you 
guys, don't let anyone influence

949
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:33,760
you. 
If you think there's something 

950
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,080
wrong with that dog, if you 
think there's something wrong 

951
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,520
with that horse, it's there. 
But you also have to, you know, 

952
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,080
you have to not have your 
emotions in it, right? 

953
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,680
You have to have it factual, no 
emotional state to us. 

954
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,560
And that's one thing I can tell 
you too, is we as veterans, we 

955
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,920
need to check our emotions and 
we need to keep those at Bay. 

956
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,800
You have to have empathy for 
your patience and compassion for

957
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,000
your patience. 
But that cannot override your 

958
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,880
factual, logical, scientific 
brain. 

959
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,600
Does that make sense? 
Because some people take, get 

960
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,160
things too emotional And I, I'm 
not like that. 

961
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,440
If you want to be a 
veterinarian, you got to accept 

962
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,000
that there are going to be bad 
outcomes. 

963
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:13,040
You're going to have to 
euthanize animals, you're going 

964
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,280
to have to see the worst. 
And it's upsetting. 

965
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,960
It's upsetting for me. 
It's but you have to have to 

966
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,880
learn how to deal with that. 
And if you're not strong enough 

967
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,240
to deal with that, maybe go into
research or something else 

968
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,600
instead of practicing as a 
veterinarian because it's a, 

969
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,600
it's a tough job. 
It's a tough job. 

970
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:32,880
You're very right. 
I think even just being in the 

971
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,840
clinic, even not as a 
veterinarian at techs are 

972
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:37,600
stressed out. 
There's high turnover rates for 

973
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,080
many, many reasons, but one of 
them is the emotional load. 

974
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:42,800
You can't here's my biggest 
thing. 

975
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,520
You don't want animals 
suffering. 

976
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,720
We don't want to see our own 
loved ones suffer, right, Even 

977
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:51,040
though, you know, there's and we
have the gift as a veterinarian 

978
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,720
to be able to take our animals 
out of suffering. 

979
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,080
And people can become selfish, 
right? 

980
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,840
And they lose a rational aspect 
to this is suffering. 

981
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,520
And I feel like it's our job as 
veterinarians to say your 

982
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,480
animal's really suffering and 
it's very, very painful. 

983
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,800
And this is hard for all of us, 
but we need to do the right 

984
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,400
thing for your animal, right? 
And it's, if you cannot have 

985
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,600
that conversation and it's hard,
but you also have to, if you 

986
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,720
want to be a doctor, these are 
the, these are the things that 

987
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:23,960
you have to work on. 
I mean, mental illness is a, we 

988
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,920
all love animals, but you also 
have to have that emotional 

989
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:33,280
integrity and emotional control 
to understand you're there to 

990
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,520
not only help the human, but 
you're also there to help the 

991
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,240
animal. 
And the human aspect of it is a 

992
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:40,560
very big thing. 
And you have to be good with 

993
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,920
humans and you have to have 
care. 

994
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,120
You have to care, you know, you 
have to care, but not, you know,

995
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,520
and you have to guide the owner 
to like, Nope, I'm sorry, this 

996
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,480
is not, you know, it's hard. 
But if you're, if you can't 

997
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,000
handle that and it, it wears on 
all of us, but you also have to,

998
00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:58,840
I always look at to the positive
of everything. 

999
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,240
What did this teach me? 
How am I going to learn from 

1000
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:04,240
this? 
You know, what can I do to be 

1001
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,440
different, to be able to help 
the next patient? 

1002
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,280
Or what did I say that was 
incorrect that I need to be 

1003
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,360
better at? 
How did I approach this? 

1004
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,320
It's always to me, it's self 
reflection. 

1005
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,040
It's always having self 
reflection of trying to be the 

1006
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,000
best human being that you can be
and to actually care. 

1007
00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:22,720
I find people stop caring 
because they take all that stuff

1008
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,640
on and it bogs them down. 
And I'm just telling you don't 

1009
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,200
let it do that. 
Keep your positive attitude. 

1010
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,440
Realize why you're doing this. 
You're doing this to help other 

1011
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,240
people and animals and it's a 
great job. 

1012
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:37,960
It's an exceptional job. 
That's. 

1013
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,400
Amazing. 
I think I'd like to wrap us up 

1014
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:47,160
on for people who want to learn 
more because our education will 

1015
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,960
not necessarily provide 
resources for bio mechanics. 

1016
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:57,000
Where can we as students look or
pre vet students or horse owners

1017
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,960
or does anyone who wants to know
more? 

1018
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,480
Where can we learn about bio 
mechanics? 

1019
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,960
Can come to me because I'm going
to be teaching courses. 

1020
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,440
You don't have to be a vet area.
You can be a veterinary student,

1021
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,400
you can be a trainer, you can be
a veterinarian because you guys 

1022
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,520
are important to me. 
The veterinary students are very

1023
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,760
important to me because if I can
help train you how to think 

1024
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,280
about problems, then you're 
going to have a, you're never 

1025
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:22,680
going to have to worry about 
business. 

1026
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:26,960
I don't, I'm very fortunate. 
Everybody, everybody's worried 

1027
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,920
about money, right? 
How much like you said earlier, 

1028
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,720
like the salaries are so bad for
equine veterinarians. 

1029
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:37,600
Well, if you understand what I 
do for a living and if you're 

1030
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,000
start and you develop the 
skills, you never have to worry 

1031
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,800
about business. 
You never have to worry about 

1032
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,480
not having business. 
People will come to you because 

1033
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,280
you know you care #1 #2 they 
want solutions to problems and 

1034
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,080
#3 the horse gets better and 
people don't have to spend as 

1035
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,560
much money. 
So when you start treating body 

1036
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,680
lameness, the at the lower limb 
stuff starts becomes minimal, 

1037
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,040
very minimal, very minimal. 
And that's the key to it all. 

1038
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,960
That's what I've learned. 
I've seen the pattern where 

1039
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,600
horses were getting their Hawks 
and stifles injecting coffin 

1040
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,680
joints injected every three to 
four months. 

1041
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,920
And it's this repetitive. 
Oh, it's time. 

1042
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:14,480
It's time. 
It's time. 

1043
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,520
If you take care of the body 
that is responsible 

1044
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,120
biomechanically for allowing the
joints, the lower limb joints to

1045
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,000
move and work correctly and 
correctly and not and evenly. 

1046
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,440
The amount of work you have to 
do down there is very minimal. 

1047
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,280
Isn't that a concept? 
Isn't that a huge concept? 

1048
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,160
Hey, one thing. 
Can I say one thing, you guys? 

1049
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,440
So one of these questions and I 
have to tell you, one of my 

1050
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,480
clients was here today and she's
Harvard trained, She's a Harvard

1051
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,240
professor. 
She's very good client has great

1052
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:46,800
horses. 
Actually as a horse that had 

1053
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,720
shivers in all four legs. 
What the thing that you guys 

1054
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:51,920
have to realize? 
And she said when she read, I 

1055
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:55,640
gave her guys the questions and 
she's like, you tell those 

1056
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,400
ladies that these are Harvard 
approved questions because we 

1057
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,440
didn't get to all these 
questions, but that's OK. 

1058
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,440
We can we can do a better 
podcast next time and actually 

1059
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,480
answer the question. 
But it was fun. 

1060
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,480
It was fun getting to know you 
guys, you know, and just kind of

1061
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,480
telling stories and stuff. 
But we should answer these 

1062
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,080
questions and you guys come up 
with more direct ones. 

1063
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,120
But she said, Anne told me to 
tell you like you guys are and I

1064
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:20,920
told them this is the future, 
Anne. 

1065
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:25,360
You guys are the future of what 
I have started all because of 

1066
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:30,480
that one Bettner in in 2015. 
So my job is to help you guys to

1067
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,880
develop these skills. 
But you have to always realize 

1068
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:34,360
that horses will never lie to 
you. 

1069
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,160
Your patients will not lie to 
you. 

1070
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,040
Horses will never lie to you. 
So please, if you know better, 

1071
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,520
you should do better, right? 
And so with all this, that's 

1072
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,960
what I, I need. 
I want you guys to know that 

1073
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,520
please tell your classmates 
everything, that what you see, 

1074
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:52,360
horses will never lie. 
But just slow down and listen, 

1075
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,640
you know, and don't get 
overwhelmed, all right? 

1076
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,840
I would love to do like a Part 
2. 

1077
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,240
We could schedule it and maybe a
case based one with. 

1078
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:03,120
These. 
I'd love that. 

1079
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:08,080
That would be phenomenal because
I grew up always wanting to be 

1080
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,360
an equine veterinarian. 
I do love to see everything, 

1081
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,640
though. 
So I'm kind of like, give it to 

1082
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,720
me. 
I'm at least going to attempt to

1083
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:19,200
try to fix it because yeah, I 
hate the feeling of sending it 

1084
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,920
to someone who's going to hurt 
five times as much and it might 

1085
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,680
die anyway. 
So I'm just going to do whatever

1086
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,800
I can. 
So, but I am frustrated by the 

1087
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,960
industry and I want to learn 
more. 

1088
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,880
So I'm like, you talk about 
these things, but I'm like, how 

1089
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,320
do you see that? 
How do you recognize that? 

1090
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,640
What can I do? 
What can I tell them? 

1091
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:44,000
Because I'm tired of getting my 
horse injected. 

1092
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:45,440
And that's like my. 
Wife. 

1093
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,280
Well, if you want. 
Here's the thing I can tell you 

1094
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,600
if you want a performance horse,
they're going to need to be 

1095
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,640
injected because there's wear 
and tear. 

1096
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,800
Yeah, and that's the real truth.
I mean, if you want to be an 

1097
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:57,520
athlete, you're going to have 
injuries and you're going to 

1098
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,440
have to be treated. 
And it all doesn't entail 

1099
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,240
injections, but it entails a lot
of other things besides just 

1100
00:54:03,240 --> 00:54:06,000
injecting. 
And it's all the I mean, we this

1101
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,040
it's a whole nother realm of 
rehab, physiotherapy, all that 

1102
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,800
stuff. 
I mean, that's a whole nother 

1103
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,680
level that I teach. 
And it's, you know, it's, it's 

1104
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,120
easy once you start 
understanding it, it's easy. 

1105
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,200
But if you want a performance 
horse, if you want a trail 

1106
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,080
horse, fine. 
You're not going to inject it 

1107
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,200
unless it needs it. 
But a performance horse, it 

1108
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,400
entails advanced medicine and 
and things you know, they get 

1109
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:29,720
injured. 
Yeah. 

1110
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:32,760
So we could do something with 
case best based. 

1111
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,160
That would be amazing. 
We actually just had so funny 

1112
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,400
that we're talking today about 
performance horses. 

1113
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,600
We had an FBI veterinarian talk 
to our equine club the other day

1114
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,120
and talk about going through the
process and it takes like 20 

1115
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,200
something years. 
He was on like the Olympic so 

1116
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:54,000
but I was like, what does this 
really entail? 

1117
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,920
Because these are pretty much 
always lameness cases. 

1118
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:02,720
Like what is the process of 
dealing with $1,000,000 millions

1119
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:06,360
of dollar clients where they're 
like, you need to get them in 

1120
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,880
the ring? 
Because we've had years of 

1121
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,480
training leading up to this. 
And I'm looking at their horse 

1122
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,600
and being like, I know that that
is a champion dressage horse, 

1123
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,240
but they're lame. 
They need 2 years of rehab and 

1124
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,240
they need to not be riding for 
months. 

1125
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,800
Say, how do you even bring? 
Well, that's that's the whole 

1126
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,800
issue, right? 
And that's a whole that's a 

1127
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,520
whole nother realm of discussion
that unfortunately the horse 

1128
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,920
many times is sacrificed because
the veterinarians don't don't 

1129
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,600
tell if they say they have a 
suspensory. 

1130
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,560
So at least you have nine months
and then the horse goes back and

1131
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,480
then it's injured again. 
You're just I just saw it 

1132
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,360
literally today. 
I just saw a shivers horse that 

1133
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,040
he's 19 years old now. 
I started treating him four 

1134
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:50,960
years ago. 
The horse couldn't even walk and

1135
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,680
he shivered so bad in all four 
legs. 

1136
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,560
And today I could pick up all 
four legs no problem. 

1137
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,120
His body looks beautiful, 
everything. 

1138
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,720
What do? 
You treat shivers with what? 

1139
00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:05,800
Is the whole that's a whole 
nother That's another girls 

1140
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,000
that's a whole nother. 
I would love to have you guys. 

1141
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,000
No, I'm really serious. 
I I'm here to help you guys and 

1142
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,040
eat, you know, students and that
it's hard. 

1143
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,000
People want to come and work 
with me and do externships and 

1144
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:17,680
stuff. 
It's hard. 

1145
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,200
I travel a lot, but I do teach 
and the bio mechanics is going 

1146
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:25,320
to may be open to you guys, 
especially you guys as students.

1147
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,000
I'm here to help you guys. 
You guys are the future. 

1148
00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:31,520
There is not going to be any 
equine veterinarians like. 70 to

1149
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,120
80% or. 
Maybe even more. 

1150
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,800
It's more than that you guys. 
I just had a veterinarian call 

1151
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,640
me tonight and she left a 
voicemail. 

1152
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,120
I called, we always play phone 
tag and she has a 2 year old 

1153
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:45,800
horse that has really bad 
sciatica. 

1154
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,760
And I really, her name's Ally. 
She's up in New York someplace, 

1155
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,720
but she's going to go see a 
veterinarian up in Canada that's

1156
00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:54,520
training with me and be able to 
treat the horse. 

1157
00:56:54,720 --> 00:56:57,960
But she was like, she's like, I 
don't understand why people just

1158
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,800
don't pick up the phone and call
people like you and just you 

1159
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,120
just say, Hey, I can't, you 
know, this is what you can do. 

1160
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,800
If you can't do it, then here's 
somebody that can help you. 

1161
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,960
She goes, we're not going to 
have people because of these 

1162
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,520
factors, right? 
Nobody wants to share clients. 

1163
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,480
And there's so much. 
And that's kind of the kind of 

1164
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,240
the issue, right? 
We all need to help each other. 

1165
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,800
We need to help each other, not 
be on islands away from each 

1166
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,600
other. 
And that's my goal is through 

1167
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,960
what I've done, I'm trying to 
make a family where people are 

1168
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,520
like it doesn't matter what 
letters you have behind your 

1169
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,840
name, just come. 
We're all the same. 

1170
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,360
We're all DVMS. 
You just got more letters. 

1171
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,440
Doesn't mean you're smarter, 
just means you went through more

1172
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,680
stuff, right? 
Because being smart is only 

1173
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,040
dependent on what you can solve 
as far as problems. 

1174
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,240
It's not about right and wrong 
answer. 

1175
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,920
Sometimes there's not a right 
answer and many times there's 

1176
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,480
not a wrong answer. 
So that's what everybody wants, 

1177
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,600
1 answer. 
And I'm like I don't have one 

1178
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,960
answer lane the whole thing. 
And I think that is the most 

1179
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,520
important point. 
We are very grateful. 

1180
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:00,920
Thank you. 
So much. 

1181
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,200
You're welcome. 
You're so. 

1182
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,800
Love to do a Part 2 where we go,
I know we hit a lot of the 

1183
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:09,320
questions a little bit less in 
depth, but if we do it case 

1184
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:14,200
based Part 2 where we go over 
more of the neurology and the 

1185
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,080
bio mechanics and things that 
people can look for. 

1186
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,520
Absolutely even. 
Incorporate videos if. 

1187
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,120
We can if I can shoot. 
Yeah, that would be great. 

1188
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,240
So it would almost be kind of 
like a lecture, but people can 

1189
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,040
see. 
Yeah, talking. 

1190
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:31,120
So I think it would be really 
helpful. 

1191
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,520
I can share my screen and we'll 
start with the simplest things 

1192
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,320
and we can put case up so they 
can see it and I can go over an 

1193
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:36,880
exam. 
Yeah. 

1194
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,040
That would be amazing. 
That would be absolutely 

1195
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:40,800
amazing. 
Michaela yeah, just walking 

1196
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,640
through, what are we looking at?
What are we looking for? 

1197
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:45,520
Thank you so much, Doctor de 
Clue. 

1198
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,240
Well, thank you for listening to
the vet files and thank you 

1199
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:51,400
Doctor de Clue for coming on 
today. 

1200
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:56,400
But you can find the horse First
podcast on everything I figured.

1201
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,960
So thought I would check and you
can find the vet files on 

1202
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:05,080
YouTube and Spotify and we'll 
see you next time.