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Welcome back, pet parent. 
Since I started this podcast and

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I started having guests on, I 
created a list of like my I 

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would love, love, love to have 
these guests on my show and I 

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wish I had been able to find it 
for this recording with the move

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and everything. 
It's somewhere in a box, but I 

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have been able to get a couple 
of those like, Oh my gosh, I 

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would love to have these people 
on my podcast list. 

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And today I have another one. 
I'm so excited. 

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I have Doctor Susan Recker with 
us today. 

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And first of all, let me just go
ahead and invite you on. 

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Thank you so much for being 
here. 

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Doctor Recker, How the heck are 
you? 

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Well. 
Thank you, Jessica, and thank 

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you for the kind words. 
That's very sweet of you to say 

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and I'm delighted to be here. 
Thank you for inviting me and 

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I'm doing great. 
I'm ready to talk nutrition 

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today. 
So you have done so many things 

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and I know you kind of went 
through a journey like a lot of 

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other veterinarians have. 
That's one of the things that I 

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actually really love to talk 
about when I have a veterinarian

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on, is like, how did you go from
your probably very conventional 

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training in vet school to where 
you are now? 

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Yeah, yeah, it was a journey for
sure. 

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And it then the journey 
continues. 

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Yeah, I definitely had a very 
conventional beginning. 

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My education was very 
conventional, as it is for most 

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of us. 
And I worked in conventional 

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practice for the first, well, 
most of my career actually. 

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But I didn't start to 
incorporate integrative things 

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until probably, I don't know, 
but maybe like 10 years in. 

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And so that happened because of 
a confluence of different 

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factors. 
One of them was that I had 

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children and as I was becoming 
very aware of and concerned 

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about every little thing that 
went into or onto their little 

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bodies, I started to look at 
nutrition pretty deeply for 

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people. 
And then, you know, you'd think 

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that would be an automatic 
obvious connection that the same

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is true for for animals, but it 
wasn't necessarily immediate. 

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But not too long into kind of 
really diving into human 

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nutrition, I was like, well, 
wait a minute, I think this is 

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probably pretty important for 
animals as well. 

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And you know, as you kind of 
alluded to, conventional 

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veterinary training and 
nutrition is very, very limited 

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and very much skewed towards 
ultra processed foods. 

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So feeding fresh foods was was 
kind of new and out-of-the-box 

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and not something I was 
comfortable with right off the 

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bat. 
But one of the other factors 

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that came into play at the same 
time was in addition to 

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considering considering 
nutrition, I was also starting 

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to become kind of dissatisfied 
with treatment outcomes in my 

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patients. 
You know, I would follow the 

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algorithm, follow the book of 
what I was taught, right? 

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And, and what I was taught was, 
you know, if the animal has 

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condition A and you do treatment
B, the outcome will be C Well, 

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that wasn't necessarily always 
true. 

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And I was very frustrated with, 
OK, well, I did the treatment 

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and they didn't get better. 
So what else is there? 

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There's got to be something 
else. 

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And so that started me to look 
at some other integrative 

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modalities to try to incorporate
into my treatment toolbox for my

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patients. 
And so around that time I became

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certified in veterinary spinal 
manipulation therapy, which in 

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some states of the country you 
can call chiropractic for 

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animals, but not in Wisconsin, 
where I became certified. 

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Yeah, so so I have the the 
letter CVSMT after my name, 

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which means certification and 
veterinary spinal manipulation 

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therapy. 
And people are often times like,

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well, what does that mean? 
And I'm like chiropractic, but 

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you can't say that out loud. 
So and so that that opened my 

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eyes to a lot of other 
modalities as well. 

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And if, if you have any 
experience with human 

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chiropractors, you know that 
oftentimes they are very focused

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on nutrition because that that 
treatment option very much 

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appreciates and recognizes the 
connection between food and 

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health or disease. 
And so that package together 

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really kind of got me started 
with feeding fresh Food First in

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my own pets and then I saw 
obviously a huge change in them 

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and that gave me the confidence 
to kind of branch out and start 

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doing that with with my animal 
patients as well. 

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That's amazing. 
Yes. 

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And it's very interesting about 
the insight about chiropractors 

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because you said that and I'm 
like, yeah, especially like in 

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the past five years on social 
media that not all, but a lot of

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the doctors that are speaking 
out that have been speaking out 

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and they're like, wait a second,
We've been we've been doing this

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forever and you guys just 
haven't been listening to us. 

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I've. 
Been a chiropractor? 

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Yeah, it's true. 
Yeah. 

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So one of the things that people
are more familiar with you on is

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the animal diet formulator and 
some of the collaborations that 

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you have had in recent years 
with Doctor Karen Becker, Steve 

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Brown. 
When you say you got interested 

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in nutrition like that, that's a
that's a journey in and of 

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itself. 
I feel like I know and I'll just

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really quickly, I know people 
who have been listening for a 

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while know like my story has 
been crazy with nutrition. 

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I go back and forth a lot 
between, you know, I'll learn 

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something and I'm like, Oh my 
gosh, this is so complicated. 

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And then I'll learn something 
else. 

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Especially I, I just, I tend to 
always go back to Doctor 

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Billinghurst because every time 
I like get in my head, I'll go 

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listen to Doctor Billinghurst 
and I'm like, oh, no way. 

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This is simple. 
I need to, I need to chill. 

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So I go back and forth a lot. 
I I'm just curious, like to hear

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a little bit more about your 
journey with nutrition and 

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animals and, and that roller 
that to me, it's a, it's a 

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roller coaster. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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And I agree with you. 
You know, I mean, in some ways 

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it is complex. 
There are a lot of factors to 

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consider if we're going to look 
at the total picture. 

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But in other ways, it is simple,
You know, I, I'm, I'm always 

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hopeful that the message that I 
can convey is don't give up 

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because it seems too 
complicated. 

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Anything that you can do towards
putting more fresh food in the 

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bowl is a plus. 
Now, I am a fan of complete and 

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balanced because we do know that
there are minimum nutrient 

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requirements. 
And so my personal comfort level

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is I need to make sure that if 
I'm recommending a food to that 

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somebody's going to feed to 
their animal. 

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I am not going to be responsible
for, for that animal having 

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nutrient deficiencies. 
I'm just not because we know 

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that they can be linked to 
disease. 

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And I don't want to be, I want 
to, I want to help promote 

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health. 
I don't in any way want to 

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promote disease. 
And so for me, that means I have

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to be comfortable knowing it's 
going to meet all those nutrient

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requirements. 
But having said that, you know, 

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if you're feeding, if you're at 
a place where you're feeding 

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kibble, because that's what 
works for you or that's the only

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thing you know how to do or 
that's what you can afford, 

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whatever, OK, great. 
But we can, we can add some 

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fresh food to the bowl. 
And that's a good way to start 

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and build your comfort level and
get your pet acclimated, all 

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those kinds of things. 
So that's kind of how I started 

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with with my clients when I 
first started moving into 

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nutrition. 
And then the more I learn, the 

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more strategies I develop and 
the more I focus on different 

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areas of nutrition and what's 
important. 

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So part of my nutrition journey 
and like you mentioned with 

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Doctor Karen Becker and Steve 
Brown. 

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So Karen Becker and I are 
besties, have been for 30 one 

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years now. 
We met the first day of vet 

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school orientation. 
We sat next to each other and 

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became besties men and have been
ever since. 

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And so we have been great 
friends during that whole time. 

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We didn't necessarily have a lot
of professional collaboration 

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until just the last few years. 
And that came about because I 

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had the good fortune of living 
in the same neighborhood with 

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Karen. 
We were literal next door 

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neighbors and lo and behold, who
was my other next door neighbor 

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but Steve Brown. 
So I got to sit next to Steve at

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his mass of Excel spreadsheet, 
which is super intimidating and 

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learn from him how he 
formulates. 

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And then I became associated 
with animal diet formulator. 

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So ADF bought Steve's 
spreadsheet and converted it 

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into a cloud based more 
intuitive program. 

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So I look at Steve's Excel and 
I'm like, Oh yeah, too much, 

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can't do it too, too crazy. 
But then the ADF version is 

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something that my brain can can 
handle and makes it much more 

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user friendly. 
So this whole kind of people 

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find themselves on one of two 
sides sometimes the the wing at 

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people and the spreadsheet 
people. 

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And, and there is a lot of 
common ground there. 

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If we, if we really stop to 
think about it, most of us who 

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are in fresh feeding, no matter 
which side of that, of that 

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spectrum we fall on, we just 
want to nourish our animals the 

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best we can. 
That's our goal, both of us, 

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right? 
And so the wing at people, I 

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would say to them, I get it. 
You know, we don't spreadsheet 

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our own food. 
However, when I did that for 

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myself when I first started this
journey, because I thought that 

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was a valid point to bring up, 
like we don't spreadsheet for 

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people. 
Why are we doing it for animals?

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So I was like, okay, well, I'm 
in a spreadsheet for myself for 

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a couple weeks and just see how 
it looks. 

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Well, it was awful. 
And I think that I eat a pretty 

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varied, diverse diet of Whole 
Foods. 

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I don't eat a lot of processed 
food. 

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I eat a wide variety of plants 
and animal products that are 

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that are responsibly sourced. 
And I was like, I got this 

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nailed. 
I'm going to be I'm going to 

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have like, you know, Gold Star 
for me is what I'm going to see 

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when I spreadsheet my own diet. 
Well, I did not. 

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I had consistent nutrient 
deficiencies that even though I 

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was eating a variety of foods, I
wasn't necessarily nailing some 

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of those deficiencies. 
And so that for me was the aha 

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moment where if we're rotating 
foods for animals, but if we're 

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rotating between foods that 
share the same nutrient 

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deficiencies, that animal will 
always have those one or two or 

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five nutrient deficiencies. 
And so that was the, the cue 

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that for me said, OK, I fall 
more on the spreadsheet side 

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because I need to know that I'm 
meeting all those requirements. 

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But the, the pitfall that's easy
to fall into on that side is, is

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getting like super granular and 
going out to like 3 decimal 

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places and being like, OK, well,
I need .001 more milligrams of 

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this to meet the nutrient 
requirement. 

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OK, well, is that really, is 
that really like accurate? 

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Because if I if I have two 
carrots, they're not going to 

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have the exactly identical 
nutrient profile. 

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There's going to be some natural
nutrient variability. 

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If I have one package of 9010 
beef from the grocery store and 

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another package from another 
store or even another package 

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from the same store, they're not
going to have the exact same 

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nutrient profile. 
So that nutrient data that we 

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use is a good starting point. 
But for me, it's also not like 

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the Bible where I'm like, no, 
this has been 4 milligrams of 

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zinc per 100 milligrams. 
Well, yeah, maybe it does, maybe

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it doesn't, but that's kind of a
good ballpark for me to look at 

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to have a starting point to to 
make sure that I'm meeting my 

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goals. 
So I have no idea if I answer 

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the question that you just asked
me and I went off on a big 

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tangent. 
Is OK, You're so, so brave to 

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spreadsheet your own own meals. 
There is zero chance. 

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First of all, I don't think I 
would have like the bandwidth. 

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I just be like, by the by the 
first night, I'd be like, Nope, 

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this just isn't this isn't worth
it at all. 

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I think I could, I could do it 
much easier for my pets and I 

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could myself. 
I just be like, no, I'm just not

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all that concerned like at. 
Well, I just have to, in the 

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spirit of Full disclosure. 
So now I know that I have 

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nutrient deficiencies. 
Did I do anything about it? 

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No. 
I'm making sure that my animals 

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have none. 
But if I am I making sure that I

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have none? 
Not all the time, no. 

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So no, I know and it's it drives
me up the wall because I feel 

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00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:54,760
like I do so much for me, like 
personally and not even talking 

227
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,640
about my animals. 
I do a lot for them too, but 

228
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:02,080
like for me, I feel like I do so
much and I literally take 

229
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,600
because I, I am not one, I am 
not the girl to be eating organ 

230
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,040
meat, but I will take like 
desiccated organ supplements And

231
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,760
I, I really try to be very 
particular about making sure 

232
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,240
that I'm getting these things in
my body. 

233
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,160
And, and I still, I still am 
struggling with some 

234
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,160
deficiencies and I'm like, how, 
how is this happening? 

235
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,800
It's driving me up the wall and 
I'm about to throw, throw in the

236
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,840
towel. 
But yeah, you know, and to your 

237
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:40,160
point earlier, as someone who 
does, you know, I do work with 

238
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,080
clients with their dogs and 
their cats. 

239
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:49,080
It is a really weird like 
position to be in where an 

240
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,000
honest, I'm just going to be 
really honest because I tell my 

241
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,040
clients this all the time. 
Like it kind of depends on you 

242
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,040
as to where I'm going to go with
how we're going to feed your 

243
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,520
pet. 
Because there is a part of me 

244
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,280
that feels like this obligation 
that everything has to be every 

245
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,680
bite that this animal has to 
eat, you know, needs to be AFCO 

246
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,200
complete and balanced and meet 
all minimum nutrient rate. 

247
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,720
And then, but then there's this 
other part of me that's like, 

248
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,080
we're going to kill ourselves 
for trying to do this all the 

249
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:22,280
time, like at home DIY, not 
necessary. 

250
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,520
You know, we, we rely on 
commercial brands, which is 

251
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,440
something else I, I would love 
to touch on because you were one

252
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,000
of the panelists in the inside 
scoop talking about all these 

253
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,880
different brands that, you know,
they were asked to, to provide 

254
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,880
full nutrient profiles and all 
the things. 

255
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,760
So that, so that the inside 
scoop could give an overall 

256
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,600
rating of what they would love 
to see your pets eat or, you 

257
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,000
know, best food, quote UN quote,
all the things. 

258
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,840
But if we're not relying on a 
commercial brand, which I think 

259
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,720
that series in and of itself, if
anybody watched it or even heard

260
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:03,680
about it, we kind of know that 
Hopefully if you get nothing 

261
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,680
else from that series, it's not 
to feed the same food over and 

262
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:08,520
over. 
It's not to feed the same brand 

263
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:14,160
over and over and over again, 
but to actually DIY food for 

264
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,280
your pet. 
Like you. 

265
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,400
I feel like as a pet parent, you
have to decide like, am I going 

266
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:24,280
to be that like completely anal,
everything needs to be perfect 

267
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,600
person or am I going to be like,
this is good and I'm going to do

268
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,080
something different next week 
and that's going to be good and 

269
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,720
we're going to we're going to 
make this work. 

270
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:39,600
That said, when people do that, 
like more balance, balance 

271
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,080
overtime type model, What do you
obviously it's going to be 

272
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,920
vastly different from person to 
person, from animal to animal. 

273
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:52,120
But what are some of those like 
really common deficiencies that 

274
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,800
that you see in dogs 
specifically when people are 

275
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,400
just like, I'm going to rotate 
through things week after week 

276
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:05,400
and hope for the best. 
SO in fresh food diets, I would 

277
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,920
say the most typical 
deficiencies would be, and I'm 

278
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,400
going to, I'm going to list a 
lot here because most, most of 

279
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,200
the time it's not all of these 
in, in any one person's plan, 

280
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,720
but the common threads that I 
see generally speaking, so 

281
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:28,880
magnesium, potassium, manganese,
iodine, vitamin D, vitamin E, 

282
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:35,520
thiamine, choline, sometimes 
linoleic acid, if people are 

283
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,080
really like afraid of too many 
Omega sixes. 

284
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,920
Sometimes they view the opposite
way and their animals actually 

285
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,000
deficient. 
And then EPA DHA. 

286
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:49,360
So quite, quite a few common 
deficiencies, unfortunately. 

287
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:51,800
Yeah. 
And I being somebody and I want 

288
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,000
to talk more about the animal 
diet formulator in a minute, but

289
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,480
being somebody that has like I 
have used the animal diet 

290
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,600
formulator for 2:00-ish years 
now, maybe a little bit more. 

291
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:09,040
I do notice a couple of those 
are really difficult to meet 

292
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,600
AFCO minimums with like 
manganese, vitamin E. 

293
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,120
Those are just some of the ones 
that I'm like, these are things 

294
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,840
that I'm like, that is like, 
where are we getting this from? 

295
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,360
How is how is the average person
making food at home for their 

296
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,080
pet? 
Like, how are we gonna do that 

297
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,680
if if we're using Whole Foods? 
Yeah, yeah. 

298
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,320
I'm currently I'm visualizing 
about 5 different rabbit trails 

299
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,400
that I would like to go down 
based on what you just said. 

300
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,600
So I'll pick a couple and you 
just interrupt me if if needed. 

301
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,920
The first thing is the data 
we're using impacts that too. 

302
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,680
So like if you're formulating 
using USDA ingredients, your 

303
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,600
recipes might always show as 
deficient in iodine and 

304
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,880
deficient in chloride and 
deficient in choline because a 

305
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,400
lot of times USDA does not give 
values for those. 

306
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,560
So even in ADF if you, if you 
plug those those ingredients in,

307
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,720
but they're USDA ingredients, 
there is no value for, there's 

308
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,520
never a value for iodine. 
There's oftentimes not a value 

309
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,119
for choline. 
So the first thing I would say 

310
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,599
like if you're using ADF and you
plug that in, you're like, I'm 

311
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:14,119
not, so I'm deficient in 
choline. 

312
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:17,760
Well, look at your ingredients. 
Is there a choline value listed?

313
00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:21,200
If there isn't, are you truly 
deficient in choline? 

314
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:22,920
Maybe, maybe not. 
We don't know because we don't 

315
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,480
know what the choline level is 
of that particular ingredient. 

316
00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:31,520
So that's one thing a Whole 
Foods recipes are really 

317
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,560
challenging to meet for less 
active animals. 

318
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,840
And most of our pets in the US 
are less active and we don't 

319
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,120
think they are because like for 
example, my own dog, I have a 5 

320
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,800
year old golden retriever, we 
walk for about an hour a day. 

321
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,640
She's actually very inactive in 
terms of what category I would 

322
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,520
choose for her to formulate in 
based on the number of calories 

323
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,440
it takes for her to maintain her
body weight. 

324
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,080
So people are like, yeah, I walk
for an hour a day. 

325
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,920
We're super active. 
Yeah, that's actually like super

326
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,560
inactive in terms of 
formulation. 

327
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,440
And so that's the first thing 
is, you know, don't don't be 

328
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,000
offended by the activity level 
label that your pet falls into. 

329
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,120
It's not an indictment of you as
a pet parent not providing 

330
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,320
enough activity. 
It's just based on what does 

331
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,840
that that calorie outlay 
actually look like in terms of 

332
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,720
their metabolic need. 
But the less active your pet, 

333
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,120
the fewer calories they need to 
maintain their body weight 

334
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:28,440
everyday, the more nutrients 
they need packed into that 

335
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,120
package of calories. 
So that leads me to the biggest 

336
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:34,880
can of worms that I'm going to 
maybe open here today, which is 

337
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,720
AFCO. 
AFCO, I just discovered this. 

338
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,520
I'm, I'm currently writing an 
article for the Journal of 

339
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,760
Integrated Veterinary Therapies 
on nutrition for less active 

340
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,960
pets. 
And I did a deep dive into AFCO 

341
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,880
looking for what their calorie 
guidance is. 

342
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,720
Well, they don't give any, and 
that's a problem. 

343
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:52,720
The reason that's a problem is 
this. 

344
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,240
They set a nutrient profile. 
They're like, OK, here's the 

345
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,600
nutrient levels that have to be 
in this food to be complete and 

346
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,560
balanced. 
So let's just say I'll just make

347
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,640
up numbers here. 
So let's say the nutrient 

348
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,760
profile says that you have to 
have 20 milligrams of zinc in 

349
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,960
every 1000 calories. 
Great, OK, we got it. 

350
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,480
At no point do they say, OK, so 
the dog has to eat this many 

351
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,040
calories to ensure that they get
that amount of zinc. 

352
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,280
So like this 40 LB dog needs to 
eat 1000 calories and therefore 

353
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,520
consume 20 milligrams of zinc 
every day, complete and balanced

354
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:21,720
for zinc. 
Great. 

355
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,240
They don't say that. 
So they're like, Yep, put that 

356
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,240
much in the diet. 
Well, what if your dog is only 

357
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,000
eating 600 calories per day? 
Then they're not getting 20 

358
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,640
milligrams of zinc per day, 
they're getting less. 

359
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,640
So there there needs to be a 
connection between not only how 

360
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,360
many, how much of every nutrient
is in that diet, but how much of

361
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:44,640
the diet is the animal actually 
eating. 

362
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,240
You can say that the diet is 
complete and balanced to AFCO, 

363
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,320
but if the animal is not eating 
the energy intake assumption, 

364
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,480
then they're not getting that 
full amount. 

365
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,160
So go ahead. 
Well, and that's very 

366
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,800
interesting and I know like 
we've talked about, we've been 

367
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,080
talking about this for a couple 
of years now I'll probably. 

368
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,440
Certainly because of the work 
that you've been doing when as a

369
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,080
veterinarian, but when 
veterinarians very, very often 

370
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,880
say, especially with cats say 
cut the amount that you're like,

371
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,720
please buy this beautiful bag 
that is sitting behind my 

372
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:24,240
counter from whatever company is
I probably learned from in 

373
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,520
cotton cotton veterinary school.
Buy this beautiful bag and it 

374
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,240
says to feed a cup of food a 
day. 

375
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,880
But your cat is overweight 
because there is no enrichment 

376
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,320
in your home, so feed half of 
that. 

377
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:42,600
That is a huge problem. 
Huge, huge. 

378
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,080
Well, and and there's there's so
many layers to the problem. 

379
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,960
First of all, the bag says feed 
a cup a day. 

380
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,240
Is that necessarily tied to the 
level the food was formulated 

381
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:52,840
at? 
Nope, because AFCO doesn't 

382
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,800
require that either because they
don't set and energy intake 

383
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,480
guidelines so they don't require
that. 

384
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,280
The feeding directions reflect 
that. 

385
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,120
So first of all, we're behind 
the 8 ball there. 

386
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:06,000
The amount that it says on the 
bag doesn't necessarily provide 

387
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,880
all the needed nutrients because
they can set the feeding 

388
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:09,960
guidelines at whatever they 
want. 

389
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:16,120
Then the next thing is that the 
activity levels and it's, yeah, 

390
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:20,040
most indoor kitties don't get a 
ton of of structured activity. 

391
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,800
But even if they did, even if 
you're playing with your cat for

392
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,000
an hour a day and they're, you 
know, running zoomies and you've

393
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,840
got those cool shelves on your 
wall and they can like, you 

394
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,080
know, traverse your whole house 
up at ceiling height, you've 

395
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,320
made like a awesome jungle gym 
for them. 

396
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,960
They're probably still not 
eating at the energy intake 

397
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,040
assumption set by NRC, who was 
the one that actually set those 

398
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,320
nutrient levels that AFCO bases 
off of their calorie 

399
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,600
recommendation is super, super 
high. 

400
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,680
And it actually aligns more 
closely to today's pets that 

401
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,880
would maybe like an outdoor barn
cat in Minnesota in the winter. 

402
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,520
That kind of calorie intake is 
what those nutrient levels are 

403
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,120
really set for. 
Yeah. 

404
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:02,640
It's. 
Such a huge difference because 

405
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,120
you're burning so many more 
calories to stay warm in 

406
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:08,240
Minnesota in the wind. 
Oh my goodness. 

407
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,160
That's crazy. 
No wonder all of our cats are 

408
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,800
fat. 
Exactly, exactly. 

409
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,600
And to your point then when, 
when, and I was guilty of this 

410
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,680
too, we'll just feed less, keep 
feeding less until you see 

411
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,280
weight loss. 
Well, lots of micronutrient 

412
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,640
deficiencies happen. 
But for cats in particular, what

413
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,120
happens is protein deficiency. 
And you know, we've all seen 

414
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,840
those, those older kiddies who 
are just wasting away and they 

415
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,000
have like no muscle mass on 
their little limbs anymore. 

416
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,680
But the, the other important 
muscle we have to think about is

417
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,400
the heart. 
The heart is muscle. 

418
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,880
And so when we're not supplying 
protein, we are really leaving 

419
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,240
those animals at risk for a lot 
of bad things to happen, heart 

420
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,840
disease, frailty, all sorts of 
stuff. 

421
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,560
That is, we're not doing them 
any favors by just feeding less 

422
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,080
of an inappropriately formulated
food for that activity level. 

423
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,640
Yeah, yeah. 
What, what, what, what do you 

424
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,360
think? 
What do you, I mean, I'm you 

425
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:06,280
probably don't have the answer 
and that's totally fine, but 

426
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,880
what do you think? 
What is what is your train of 

427
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,200
thought on like what we should 
be doing? 

428
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,800
There needs to be a revolution. 
I mean, like big is what needs 

429
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,560
to happen. 
Like, you know, I so don't get 

430
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,560
me wrong, I'm glad we have AFCO.
I'm glad we have something like 

431
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,560
if there were no guidelines at 
all, that would not be good. 

432
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,200
But what we have is not adequate
and it is not serving today's 

433
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,040
pets there. 
There are a very small 

434
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,960
percentage of dogs and cats in 
the US whose intake energy 

435
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,080
intake level actually aligns 
with the intake assumption of 

436
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,320
AFCO. 
So for those dogs doing 3 hours 

437
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,440
of agility a day or those cats 
who live in the barn in 

438
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,280
Minnesota, Afco's got you 
covered. 

439
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,160
For the other 99% of animals in 
the US, it's not enough. 

440
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,680
And so there needs to be 
guidance for commercial 

441
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,800
companies to properly formulate 
for these less active animals to

442
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:02,240
make sure that they're getting 
their. 

443
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,240
So NRC set metabolic 
requirements. 

444
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,000
If you look at the body weight 
of an animal, you, you then 

445
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,360
calculate their metabolic body 
weight and NRC says, OK, they 

446
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,200
may need this many milligrams of
this nutrient per metabolic body

447
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,440
weight, doesn't matter what 
their activity level is, but 

448
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,120
that's how much they need. 
Those caloric profiles are based

449
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:22,520
on that. 
But again, they're based on 

450
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,360
super high activity level 
assumption. 

451
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,600
So let's make some new caloric 
profiles that are more suited to

452
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,200
less active pets. 
So that's what needs to happen 

453
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,280
on an individual pet level. 
If you are making your own food,

454
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,960
you can do that. 
You can formulate an ADF or in 

455
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,600
another tool by setting that 
activity level much lower and 

456
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,960
generating the nutrient profile 
according to that metabolic 

457
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,760
need. 
It is possible to do you're 

458
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,800
you're not going to get there by
winging it though, because like 

459
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,080
we were mentioning, a lot of 
whole food sources are not that 

460
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,840
nutrient dense in terms of 
amount of nutrient per calorie. 

461
00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,840
That's where we run into 
problems like vitamin E Vitamin 

462
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,800
E is a fat soluble vitamin, so 
it's found in higher fat foods. 

463
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,080
So if we're going to add enough 
of that food to meet the vitamin

464
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,360
E requirement, we have now added
a ton of fat calories which then

465
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,120
dilutes out all the other 
nutrients if we look at them on 

466
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,400
a per thousand K Cal basis. 
So yeah, there are a lot of 

467
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,640
factors at play here in terms of
why aren't I meeting these 

468
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,160
nutrient requirements. 
Those are some of the reasons. 

469
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,320
So I mean, I get why people are 
like, I'm just going to wing it 

470
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,000
with my tongue. 
I get it. 

471
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:38,400
I get it as a veterinarian. 
What are some of the signs, some

472
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,160
of the more obvious signs that a
pet parent could actually see 

473
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,240
physically in their dog if their
dog is undernourished? 

474
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,640
That is such a tricky question 
for a couple reasons. 1 is that 

475
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,800
there's very little research in 
this area. 

476
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,920
There's very little research to 
say what are the ramifications 

477
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,520
of long term chronic nutrient 
deficiencies. 

478
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,320
Like for example, in less active
animals, we know what they are 

479
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,440
for growth. 
Like if you don't provide enough

480
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,440
nutrients during growth phases, 
there's some pretty, pretty 

481
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,720
obvious signs of disease and 
inappropriate development in 

482
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,200
adult animals. 
It's often times much more 

483
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,040
insidious and you're not going 
to see it from a couple of 

484
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,840
months or a couple of years even
of feeding nutrient deficient 

485
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,840
diets. 
But if we look at the rise of 

486
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,560
chronic degenerative disease in 
our pets, how much of that is 

487
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,320
tied to chronic nutrient 
deficiencies? 

488
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,000
I don't know the answer to that,
but I think it's an important 

489
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,840
question that we need to be 
asking. 

490
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,200
And from my perspective, if we 
can take that off the table as a

491
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,880
cause, why wouldn't we? 
Like if, if chronic protein 

492
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,040
deficiency is, is contributing 
to heart disease or if chronic 

493
00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:48,080
phosphorus excess is 
contributing to kidney disease, 

494
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,920
why wouldn't we take those 
things off the table and get the

495
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,960
nutrients lined up where they 
should be? 

496
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,440
And then we can look at, OK, 
well, if we're still having 

497
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,120
disease now, where's it coming 
from and what can we do to 

498
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,760
address it? 
But if we know there are gaps, 

499
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,440
my school of thought says I'm 
going to fill those first. 

500
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,080
And I think, again, not being a 
veterinarian, I could be totally

501
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,520
wrong about this, but I think 
it's even harder to see these 

502
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,680
things in our cats. 
And I think part of that is we, 

503
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,160
I mean, we talk about it all the
time, but realistically in a 

504
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,000
home, it's still difficult for 
people to not to look at their 

505
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,520
cat and say this is a 
completely, totally different 

506
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,440
species from my dog and not look
at them and treat them the same 

507
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,080
way. 
Yeah, yeah. 

508
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,320
And so I know I keep giving kind
of vague answers to this, but I 

509
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,800
don't know how to do it any 
differently. 

510
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,280
If there's anything that that 
isn't right. 

511
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,320
Like if you look at your Kitty 
and you don't think my cat looks

512
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,680
like the picture of health. 
I mean, you know, she's she's 

513
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,640
lean and well muscled and shiny 
coat and she's got bright eyes 

514
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,080
and she's got tons of energy. 
If any of those things are not 

515
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,680
true, I, I can't tell you for 
sure that there's a nutrient 

516
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,720
deficiency, but I would sure 
look at it. 

517
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,880
You know, like if the, if the, 
if your cat's itchy or has hair 

518
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,040
loss or is shedding a lot or 
just has kind of a dry coat, or 

519
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,840
if they, if your Kitty looks 
like a middle-aged man with a 

520
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,440
beer gut, like spindly legs and 
big belly. 

521
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,920
You know, something probably 
nutritionally not ideal if your 

522
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,160
kitty's just not as, as active, 
if they're reluctant to, to be 

523
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,520
jumping up and down or they're 
not doing the things that they 

524
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,120
normally do. 
Or if you see any GI signs like 

525
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,760
is there vomiting? 
Is there diarrhea or 

526
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Constipation? 
Huge problem in cats. 

527
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,800
Is there a change in, in their 
eating habits or their drinking 

528
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,280
habits? 
Like any of these things, 

529
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,600
anything that's different or if 
you picture a totally healthy 

530
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,200
cat in your brain and your Kitty
does not look like that, I think

531
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,480
it's just worth asking the 
question, is there something 

532
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,400
that isn't optimal? 
Maybe there's not, you know, 

533
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,960
like there's there's a wide 
range of what's normal and maybe

534
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,080
your Kitty is just built in a 
way that's not what you would 

535
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:08,800
conjure up in your mind as that 
ideal. 

536
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,920
But I just think it's worth 
asking that question. 

537
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,640
Is there something that is not 
being addressed or something 

538
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,600
that could be optimized to help 
my cat or my dog? 

539
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,400
Yeah, I actually, I told myself 
over the past handful of years 

540
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,800
I'm not not doing cats again. 
For a while I've had there. 

541
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,720
There's such a big commitment to
me, even though Jay and Adrian 

542
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,040
yell at me every time I say 
this. 

543
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,320
They are much harder than dogs. 
They are much harder than dogs. 

544
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,840
And I have just like all of my 
cats have been they're, they're,

545
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,240
they're seniors, they're older. 
I just lost my 17 year old. 

546
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,400
I have 216 year olds right now. 
And I'm like, no more cats. 

547
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,520
Well, the universe said, ha ha, 
try again. 

548
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,880
I was on my way driving EU Haul 
back from Texas and stopped for 

549
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,760
a little pit stop. 
And this little kitten was like,

550
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,960
Nope, you're my family now. 
And I know, right? 

551
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:14,680
I, you know, my cats that I have
now the 1st 7:00-ish years of 

552
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,360
their life, 6-7 years because I,
I started with my dogs before I 

553
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,560
moved over to my cats to try to 
get them on better foods, get 

554
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,840
them healthier, remove all the 
chemicals, all the things. 

555
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,800
So the first like 6-7 years of 
their life, they really were 

556
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,960
raised conventionally. 
They got every single vaccine as

557
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,440
soon as the card said it was 
time. 

558
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,160
They I, I was in Virginia for 
most of their early life, so 

559
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,560
they were dewormed quarterly. 
It I mean, like I did all the 

560
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,000
things they were on, you know, 
three different types of Royal 

561
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,520
Canin food, because that's what 
my vet said what they needed to 

562
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,280
be on. 
I did. 

563
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,920
I thought I was like the best 
pet parent in the world, right? 

564
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,160
Cringe now, but. 
But you were according to what 

565
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,800
you knew at that time, right? 
Like you were the best pet 

566
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,040
parent in the world working with
what you had. 

567
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,560
You were. 
True, true. 

568
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:13,400
I I do cringe now, but this 
little kitten I do like as much 

569
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,040
as I'm like, man, why am I 
starting over with a kitten? 

570
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,800
I at least now I'm like, this is
going to be kind of cool to see 

571
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,560
how he's going to grow up to see
the differences in health 

572
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,600
outcomes and quality of life. 
Knowing what I know now and 

573
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,520
starting him from like 
literally, I will tell. 

574
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,080
We were in like what I would 
consider a food desert where we 

575
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,800
stopped, where we found him. 
There were first, there was zero

576
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,360
chance I was going to like a big
box pet store, but there were no

577
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,120
indie pet stores around. 
Only grocery store I could find 

578
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,800
was a Food Lion. 
So I'm like the best of the 

579
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,120
worst and you know, feeding this
kitten ground beef from the 

580
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,800
grocery store, I'm like, what 
else do I do? 

581
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:01,880
Right? 
I'm not going to put kibble in 

582
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,880
his mouth. 
So he's been great so far. 

583
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:13,480
He is just loving life on. 
I have in the three, not even 3 

584
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,320
weeks I've had him, he has tried
like 5 different brands of 

585
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,560
commercial raw foods. 
Like we're going to get him on 

586
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,400
like the best I can can possibly
do. 

587
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,760
And so like this is, I will say,
as far as cats go, I'm really, 

588
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,200
really like crossing my fingers 
on this one that that we're 

589
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,840
going to see much better health 
outcomes. 

590
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,920
Because with my previous cats, I
definitely felt it even with the

591
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,040
two that I still have now, like 
I'm seeing what I did to them in

592
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,960
the first almost half of their 
life coming to like I'm seeing 

593
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,840
the outcomes of that later in, 
in life where some people may 

594
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,160
not connect those dots. 
And maybe I'm over connecting 

595
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,680
dots, I don't know. 
But like, to me, I'm seeing what

596
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,880
all this has done, done to them.
And so cats. 

597
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,400
Yeah, cats. 
Well, I'm really glad that the 

598
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,560
cat distribution system saw fit 
to bring you a new Kitty. 

599
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,160
Apparently, apparently. 
OK, so the animal Diet 

600
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,920
Formulator, ADF, we've talked 
about it a little bit here and 

601
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,960
there already, but can you just 
kind of give me an overview for 

602
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,520
people who are not at all 
familiar? 

603
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,040
They're like, what the heck are 
you talking about? 

604
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,120
What? 
What is this? 

605
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,880
Yeah. 
So Animal Diet Formulator is 

606
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,920
formulation software to 
formulate complete balanced 

607
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,880
diets for dogs and cats. 
We're geared primarily towards 

608
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,680
fresh food, but we do have some 
commercial users that that can 

609
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,080
make kibble using our 
formulation software. 

610
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,320
That's really not our our thrust
or our focus. 

611
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,200
So we have a lot of commercial 
companies that make fresh food 

612
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,600
using our formulation software. 
We have a professional tier 

613
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,040
where veterinarians and 
nutritionists use our software 

614
00:33:58,040 --> 00:33:59,800
to make recipes for their 
clients. 

615
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,560
And we have an individual tier 
for individual pet parents who 

616
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,920
want to make complete and 
balanced diets for their dogs 

617
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,760
and cats. 
And you can formulate to AFCO, 

618
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,880
to Fetty F and to NRC. 
So you can choose which one of 

619
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,239
those nutrient profile standards
you want to use. 

620
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,560
Again, I'll make a plug for 
formulating to Fetty F because 

621
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,880
you can choose an activity level
there and generate the 

622
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,360
appropriate nutrient profile 
based on that activity level. 

623
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,440
Feti F, just like NRC gives 
minimum metabolic requirements. 

624
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,400
So that's why we're able to do 
that there. 

625
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,600
Feti F doesn't even acknowledge 
that's a thing. 

626
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,040
So if you choose to formulate in
AFCO, then what you get is 

627
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,199
Afco's one and only adult 
profile, Afco's one and only 

628
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,199
growth profile. 
There is no customization for 

629
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:45,000
activity levels with AFCO. 
So for most people listening, if

630
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,560
you're considering using ADF to 
make your your animals diet, I 

631
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,400
would strongly recommend 
choosing Feti F to formulate in 

632
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:52,800
there. 
So the formulation software 

633
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,239
where we'll help you make that 
complete and balanced diet, 

634
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,560
it'll offer you suggestions if 
you're like, oh gosh, so I'm 

635
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,880
deficient in magnesium. 
How do I add that? 

636
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,680
The software has tools that will
suggest ingredients, whole food 

637
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,720
or supplements to help you make 
that that diet complete and 

638
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,080
balanced. 
So I know a lot of different 

639
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:15,160
people use the ADF software. 
One of the things that I thought

640
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,080
was really cool when I saw you 
at Super Jutsu a couple months 

641
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:24,680
ago, you had actually put 
together a presentation for Indy

642
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:30,120
pet stores to use it alongside 
commercially available diets. 

643
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:36,760
Because there are a good number 
so far of these smaller fresh 

644
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,400
food companies that are like, 
yeah, please, here you go. 

645
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,040
Like we, we want this 
information out there. 

646
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,560
We want to be transparent with 
our customers and we want people

647
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,840
to have fun with it and add 
things to it and make their pets

648
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,000
bowl even better, which I think 
is great. 

649
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,920
But that's I don't know if you 
want to elaborate or what I just

650
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:01,880
said. 
Yeah, yeah. 

651
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,280
And that that is one way to 
mitigate some of the problem 

652
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,920
that we talked about earlier 
with foods, commercial foods 

653
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,600
being formulated to AFCO and not
always being appropriate for 

654
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,560
less active pets in ADF. 
We have entered as ingredients 

655
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,720
commercial foods, as many as we 
can get a complete nutritional 

656
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,200
analysis for. 
And so let me just say shout out

657
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,600
to those companies who just put 
it right out on their website 

658
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,080
who are totally transparent and 
they're like, yeah, this is 

659
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,360
what's in our food. 
We believe that you deserve to 

660
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,200
know what you're feeding your 
dog or your cat. 

661
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,720
Here are the nutrients they're 
getting. 

662
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,160
But there are some companies 
that don't do that, but they 

663
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,400
have provided us a complete 
nutritional analysis when we've 

664
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,720
requested it. 
And so for foods where we have a

665
00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,640
nutrient analysis, we have 
entered them into ADF as 

666
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,280
ingredients. 
So if you have an individual 

667
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,720
subscription, you could go in 
and create a recipe where one of

668
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,880
your ingredients would be a 
commercial complete and balanced

669
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,080
AFCO food. 
You would put that in. 

670
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,400
And then when if you're using 
Fatty F and you're set on the 

671
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,240
appropriate activity level, you 
can see what the deficiencies 

672
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,520
might be for your less active 
dog or cat. 

673
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,240
And then you can use ADF to 
suggest other ingredients that 

674
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:09,840
would fill those gaps. 
And they might be other 

675
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,280
commercial products like in the 
video that I put together for 

676
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:18,760
Super Zoo, I had used a complete
and balanced air dried food, I 

677
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,720
think it was. 
And there was a deficiency in, I

678
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,800
want to say it was potassium. 
And then I used a commercial 

679
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,680
fresh greens blend to fill that 
potassium need. 

680
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:33,000
And there was a deficiency in I 
think maybe tryptophan and amino

681
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,920
acid. 
And I used some freeze dried 

682
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,720
beef heart to fill that 
deficiency. 

683
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,240
So you don't have to totally 
home make or cook your your 

684
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,800
animals food. 
You can can put together a 

685
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,320
combination of commercial 
products if that's what's better

686
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,760
for you to make sure that you're
filling those gaps. 

687
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,840
And it can be a hybrid. 
So maybe you're, you're feeding 

688
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,600
a commercial food. 
You look in ADF, you see the 

689
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:57,200
deficiencies and you're like, 
well deficient in choline. 

690
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,800
I'm going to add an egg yolk. 
OK, well, there you go. 

691
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:03,400
You know you can, you can do a 
balance of commercial plus 

692
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,720
additions from your kitchen to 
make sure that that food is 

693
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:08,600
totally meeting the needs of 
your animal. 

694
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,960
So you have a lot of options 
depending on what works for you.

695
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,600
I love that. 
And I just want to quickly run 

696
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,680
through, you talked earlier 
about how if you're using just a

697
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,880
USDA typical value, you might 
not have a complete nutrient 

698
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,240
profile just because the USDA 
doesn't provide it. 

699
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,080
And that is when you are using a
commercial food that gives you 

700
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:39,560
that full nutrient profile like 
you don't, you don't have that, 

701
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,760
but like because they're testing
which is not inexpensive to do. 

702
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,600
Yeah. 
Well, and that's, that's a good 

703
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,440
point. 
Not all companies are testing 

704
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,360
their food. 
Some are and some aren't. 

705
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,600
So the complete nutritional 
analysis that they give us might

706
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,320
be from tested data or it might 
be from formulated data. 

707
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,600
And so we're using whatever the 
company is providing as here's 

708
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,680
what represents our food. 
And so that's up to the company 

709
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,240
to determine how they want to 
represent their food. 

710
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,680
Now in an ideal world, yeah, 
they would be doing nutrient 

711
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,160
testing on their food and not 
just once, because anyone test 

712
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,920
is not necessarily 
representative, but it would be 

713
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,440
a compilation of four or five or
ten tests over a period of time 

714
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,440
that would give a more 
representative look at that. 

715
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,480
But like you said, that's that's
expensive. 

716
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,760
So if we can at least have some 
idea of what nutrients and are 

717
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,640
in the food, whether that's 
formulated or from one test, 

718
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,280
that's certainly better than 
just guessing. 

719
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,600
And there are a number of 
companies out there that say 

720
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,840
give some line a hooey, like we 
can't divulge that it's 

721
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,200
proprietary. 
Well, yeah, nutrients aren't 

722
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,120
proprietary. 
I'm sorry, your formula might 

723
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:49,520
be. 
And we don't need your formula 

724
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,000
to put it in. 
We just need to know what the 

725
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,240
nutrient levels are. 
Yeah, that makes so much sense. 

726
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,720
One of the other things that I 
often forget but is in the 

727
00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:03,680
animal diet formulator or 
sometimes are notes. 

728
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,080
On ingredients, and I think 
that's kind of a cool thing that

729
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,720
that you guys do that people 
don't necessarily have to 

730
00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:11,760
remember everything all the 
time. 

731
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,640
So are there, are there 
ingredients, maybe just a 

732
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,440
handful that you're like, yeah, 
you could use this, but I 

733
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:24,240
wouldn't want you to use this? 
In terms of nutrition or or data

734
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,720
or. 
In terms in terms of like, yeah,

735
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:32,080
this food may fill in some gaps 
for you, but like I wouldn't 

736
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:33,920
really love for you to feed it 
to your dog or cat. 

737
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,120
Well, yeah, what I mean without,
without throwing specific 

738
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,680
products or brands under the 
bus. 

739
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:48,360
I, if I read an ingredient label
and it's all meat meals and 

740
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,080
synthetic amino acids and a 
whole line of synthetic 

741
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,080
vitamins, minerals, very little 
in the way of recognizable food.

742
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:01,960
Like if, if, if you were able to
see every ingredient laid out in

743
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,600
that food and not a single one 
of them are something that you 

744
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:06,720
would look at and be like, I 
could pick that up and put that 

745
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,200
in my mouth. 
Like none of it on the label is 

746
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,800
food. 
Does it meet the essential 

747
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,840
nutrient requirements? 
Sure. 

748
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,920
But is that something that I 
would consider ideal? 

749
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,880
No. 
And the reason for that is the 

750
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,240
reason I, I believe in fresh 
food is that I think the the 

751
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,240
matrix in which those nutrients 
are delivered matters. 

752
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,760
Yes, one of those foods like I 
just described has the 

753
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,320
appropriate levels of calcium 
and magnesium and iodine and 

754
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,080
vitamin E and tryptophan. 
They're all in there, meets all 

755
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:39,720
the criteria, checks all the 
boxes. 

756
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,360
But do those nutrients in 
isolation behave the same way in

757
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,360
the body as they do if we're 
giving them as amino acids 

758
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:52,040
coming from meat and magnesium 
coming from seeds or vegetables?

759
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,040
Yeah, I'm, I'm just not 
convinced they do. 

760
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,480
And I think there's a lot about 
nutrition that we don't know 

761
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,320
yet. 
And sometimes we talk about the 

762
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,680
dark matter of nutrition. 
So like all those essential 

763
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,120
nutrients we know that dogs and 
cats need, that's great. 

764
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,280
I'm willing to bet there are 
other things they need that we 

765
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,360
don't know about yet. 
And if we're feeding foods, I 

766
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,480
believe the chances that we'll 
be delivering those other 

767
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,040
mystery things that we don't 
know they need yet are higher 

768
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,480
than if we're feeding a food 
that is just a compilation of 

769
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,680
synthetic essential nutrients 
that meets just those ones that 

770
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,520
are listed in AFCO and nothing 
else. 

771
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,640
Yeah. 
No, that makes total sense. 

772
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,120
I mentioned earlier and I don't 
want obviously you to like go 

773
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,400
into people need to go to the 
inside scoop to see what all of 

774
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,600
that is about. 
There was a whole series, I 

775
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,000
think was it the second annual 
one that they had done this past

776
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,080
year on. 
They were rating basically a 

777
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,800
bunch of different commercial 
food brands. 

778
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,960
Course some brands didn't 
participate. 

779
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,120
Other brands were like, yes, 
here, here's everything. 

780
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,240
I want you to look at it, Tell 
me what's going on, which was 

781
00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:58,160
really cool. 
And I don't again want you to 

782
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,400
like go through all of that. 
People need to go to the inside 

783
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,760
scoop to see that. 
But I have a lightning round 

784
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,360
that maybe people could kind of 
get an idea of what your 

785
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,360
experience was going through 
that process that I would love 

786
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,640
for you to just quickly or as 
quickly as you would like, 

787
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:20,840
answer just a few questions. 
So what do you feel in a 

788
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,920
commercial food? 
What is the most overrated pet 

789
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,440
food claim? 
Overrated pet food claim. 

790
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,920
Probably natural. 
What does that mean? 

791
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,160
No one knows? 
Yeah, nobody knows. 

792
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,680
Nobody knows. 
What is, in your opinion, the 

793
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:39,440
most underrated whole food to 
add to a commercial diet? 

794
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,120
As part of the commercial 
formulation like the company 

795
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,840
would put it in or pet parent 
adding it on top. 

796
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,560
Oh, I like both. 
Let's do both. 

797
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:55,680
OK, OK, let's see. 
So most nutritional bang for the

798
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,840
buck that a company might add. 
Boy, I'm torn. 

799
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,760
There's so many. 
I'm going to, I'm going to focus

800
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,200
on protein as a major group and 
I really like heart. 

801
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Heart. 
Sometimes people think of it as 

802
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,640
an organ, which it is, but it's 
muscle. 

803
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,320
So I count it in my brain as 
muscle meat and it's tends to be

804
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,880
very nutrient dense. 
So I'm a big fan of Heart. 

805
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,520
So if a pet parent just is 
feeding whatever they're able to

806
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,320
feed at the time, but what do 
you think as a Topper would have

807
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,080
the most thing for their buck? 
If I have to pick one, I'm going

808
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,000
to go sardines. 
And the reason I'm going to go 

809
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,360
sardines is the EPA and DHA. 
So even if if you're feeding a 

810
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,360
say a kibble and maybe there is 
salmon oil or some other EPADHA 

811
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,480
source in that kibble, chances 
are very good by the time you 

812
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,720
get to the bottom of the bag 
that that EPA and DHA is rancid.

813
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,120
And so then it's no longer 
having the same benefits. 

814
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,360
So if we can add fresh EPA and 
DHA and I don't mean that you 

815
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,000
have to go catch your own 
sardines like you can use canned

816
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,760
sardines, but that's still going
to be fresher EPA and DHA. 

817
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,400
If you open that can that 
morning and put a sardine on top

818
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,000
of the bowl, that is going to be
much more biologically 

819
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,840
beneficial to the dog or cat 
than eating rancid salmon oil at

820
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,120
the the bottom of the kibble 
lag. 

821
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,600
OK. 
So excluding equality omega-3, 

822
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:16,920
because that's what you just 
talked about. 

823
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,880
What what it is one supplement 
that you're like, yes, add this.

824
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:27,600
To the food, in terms of being 
beneficial to the largest number

825
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,680
of animals, I would have to say 
digestive enzymes, that the 

826
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,920
ability to make digestive 
enzymes decreases with age and 

827
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,440
there are very few animals or 
people who wouldn't derive some 

828
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,200
benefit from digestive enzymes. 
Is there a supplement that you 

829
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,920
feel like a lot of people use 
that you're like play stop? 

830
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,640
Gosh, I don't know that it's 
super common, but the one that 

831
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,840
always makes me cringe a little 
bit is just a vitamin mineral 

832
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,880
supplement because oftentimes 
it's added without knowledge of 

833
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,080
what's in the base diet. 
So then we can add end up with 

834
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,880
actually nutrient excesses, 
which can be toxic. 

835
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,240
So that's my least favorite 
thing to see is when people are 

836
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:05,520
like, I'm, I'm feeding this and 
then I'm giving this, this and 

837
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,560
this, including this vitamin 
mineral supplement. 

838
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,880
Yeah, Well, and you, you kind of
touched on this a moment ago 

839
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,280
with the bottom of the bag of 
kibble, but I had Judah Vital on

840
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:21,360
the podcast and he did like a 
Omega-3 for Dummies course on 

841
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,160
the podcast. 
And he had it has it so drilled 

842
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,880
into my brain that if you are, 
if you are for me, if you're 

843
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:35,080
supplementing an Omega-3 and it 
is in a pump, that it's very 

844
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,600
quickly going to go rancid. 
And he's like, if you're feeding

845
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:42,360
a rancid fish oil, you'd do much
better to not feed a fish oil. 

846
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,600
And I'm like, so that is such a 
pet peeve of mine anymore. 

847
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,600
Like please stop feeding rancid 
fats. 

848
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,000
Yeah, that's a good point. 
Rancid fats are are worse than 

849
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,480
no fats and fats are important. 
Like I'm not. 

850
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:57,960
I'm certainly not saying don't 
feed fats. 

851
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,560
I'm just saying don't feed 
rancid fats. 

852
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,400
Right. 
Yeah, Yeah, OK. 

853
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,800
What is your hill you're going 
to die on when it comes to 

854
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,520
nutrition for dogs and cats? 
I mean, I think it's going to be

855
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,160
what I said earlier when I said 
there needs to be a revolution. 

856
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,040
We need to be providing adequate
nutrition to less active dogs 

857
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,720
and cats, which is all of our 
dogs and cats. 

858
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,880
It really is, isn't. 
It really is. 

859
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,400
Yeah. 
I, I'm also very have become 

860
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,120
very passionate about in that 
revolution. 

861
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:35,080
I feel like in the animal diet 
formulator, I think is in its 

862
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,040
own way doing this or trying to 
do this. 

863
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,600
But I feel like we need 
different nutrient requirements 

864
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,160
for those companies that are 
using synthetic premixes and 

865
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,400
fresh whole food companies that 
are like we're using none or 

866
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,000
very minimal synthetic 
additives. 

867
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,680
That's to me is a totally 
different ball game. 

868
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,520
It is, unfortunately, we don't 
have any data. 

869
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,240
Like there's no, there's no 
established, there's no studies 

870
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:07,360
that say, OK, you need this much
magnesium if it's synthetic, but

871
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:08,840
you need this much of its 
natural. 

872
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,640
No one knows what those numbers 
are. 

873
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,560
Yeah, but that would be amazing 
because, because like you, I bet

874
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,480
they're different numbers. 
I can only all of the code like 

875
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:24,240
you talked about all of the like
Co nutrients that are in real 

876
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,080
food and things that we don't 
even know about that we, I don't

877
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,680
know, maybe in 100 years we 
might know about more things, 

878
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:33,720
but we just don't. 
We don't know it all because 

879
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:36,320
we're not God. 
Yeah, exactly. 

880
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,400
Oh my goodness. 
Is there anything I didn't touch

881
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,920
on that you're like, no, I want 
to talk about this? 

882
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:45,120
Gosh, you touched on everything.
That the one thing that I just 

883
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:47,160
occurred to me, I didn't really 
mention much. 

884
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,240
I alluded to it when I said cats
and Constipation is a big 

885
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:51,520
problem. 
Fiber. 

886
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,720
I just, I guess that's another 
hill I'll die on. 

887
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:57,240
Like fiber, super important and 
everybody needs fiber. 

888
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:00,400
Even our obligate carnivore 
kitties, they still need fiber. 

889
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,640
There's a lot of cats walking 
around out there functionally 

890
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,840
constipated all the time because
they don't get enough fiber. 

891
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,560
Moisture is the other part of 
that. 

892
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,280
Those two things go hand in 
hand, but fiber is a big one. 

893
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,600
Yeah, No, I agree. 
And I think I honestly don't 

894
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,600
know what is or isn't in the ADF
in this regard because I just 

895
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,960
have never used it this way. 
But so many people feed like fur

896
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,400
and feathers and I don't know if
that's in the ADF as far as like

897
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,280
nutrients, but but that is 
something that I think people, 

898
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:34,360
the average pet parent may 
overlook. 

899
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,640
DIY raw feeders generally are 
not going to overlook that, but 

900
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,440
it is it can be a really 
important component, especially 

901
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,960
in an obligate carnivores diet. 
For sure, for sure. 

902
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,120
So there is not data for that in
ADF because we have not found 

903
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,800
any. 
If anyone has tested fur and 

904
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,120
feathers for nutrients, we would
love to have that data and we 

905
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,080
will totally put it in ADF. 
And so that's an important part.

906
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,800
But the other piece of this is 
so the fiber is important. 

907
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,240
That's that's insoluble fiber 
that you're talking about that 

908
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:05,360
bulks up the stool and helps 
with elimination. 

909
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,960
Soluble fiber, fermentable fiber
is also incredibly important to 

910
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,240
feed those gut microbes and so 
that we're not getting from the 

911
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:16,160
fur and the feathers. 
So you can be feeding a whole 

912
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,480
prey diet that is still 
deficient in the right balance 

913
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,120
of fibers. 
So sometimes I'll hear people 

914
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,720
say that like you'll kill your 
dog or your cat if you're 

915
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:29,240
feeding vegetables or fruits and
that's just not true. 

916
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:33,200
The only way that we get some of
those beneficial polyphenols is 

917
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,400
from plants. 
So if we're not introducing 

918
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,120
plants into the diet, we're 
missing out on a whole host of 

919
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:44,920
bio active polyphenols and other
things that have really powerful

920
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:48,640
effects in the body in terms of 
preventing cancer or being 

921
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,800
protective for organ function or
helping detox or just assisting 

922
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,280
with basic metabolistic 
functions. 

923
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,240
We get those from plant 
polyphenols. 

924
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:00,960
And so plants are not the enemy,
but we can incorporate them 

925
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,120
within the framework of what's 
biological appropriate for that 

926
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,000
cat or dog. 
So I can make a recipe for a dog

927
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,920
and one for a cat that are very 
similar, just that the Kitty 

928
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,480
version is going to have smaller
amounts of all of those same 

929
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,960
fruits and veggies and seeds 
that I put into the dog recipe. 

930
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:22,080
Now I know even like my cats 
they if I bring some cat grass 

931
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,800
out they're all over it. 
They will go out if they go 

932
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,160
outside, which my 1 cat has 
decided. 

933
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,160
He has figured out how to, he's 
figured out how to get outside. 

934
00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:35,120
He goes, he goes for the grass. 
He's like, yeah, I want some 

935
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,640
grass. 
My cat will hunt a roasted 

936
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,200
asparagus off the the pan every 
time. 

937
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,000
And, you know, I mean, she gets 
super excited about it too. 

938
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,800
She'll she'll grab it and then 
she'll run off with it in her 

939
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,480
mouth and she makes that sound 
like I have just come back from 

940
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,640
a successful kill. 
You know, she's like, and I'm 

941
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,360
like, yeah, you got an 
asparagus, didn't you? 

942
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:55,640
And she'll that's. 
Adorable. 

943
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,520
That is adorable. 
Oh my gosh. 

944
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,440
Yeah. 
My our new kitten, his name is 

945
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,400
Camden. 
He is in that learning stage. 

946
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,920
He's learning a lot from the 
other older cats around him, but

947
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:14,720
he is still very like you give 
him a treat, especially like a 

948
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:17,440
high value. 
I don't know what in my house is

949
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:18,560
in high value. 
Honestly. 

950
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:23,880
I'm like between the, the duck 
treats and the, the like wild 

951
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,560
boar tree, like what in my house
is on high value. 

952
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,200
But he is just like he's, he's 
so tiny and ferocious and he 

953
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:34,680
will get it and he growls and he
will swat at you and just like 

954
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,040
he's like all in on the treats 
on the floor. 

955
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:44,520
Oh my gosh, buddy, we need to 
teach you some manners for sure.

956
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:46,120
I love it. 
I love it. 

957
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,120
I love that growl that's like, 
this is mine, I got on this. 

958
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,480
It's adorable. 
Anyway. 

959
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,640
Kittens are the best. 
So I know, right, OK. 

960
00:52:53,640 --> 00:53:00,880
So in general, the ADF could be 
for anybody whether you are 

961
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:06,720
formulating and you consult 
right for commercial food 

962
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,280
formulators. 
And for individuals. 

963
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,560
So a lot of what I do at ADF is 
consultation for individuals and

964
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,480
for veterinarians and for 
commercial companies, yeah. 

965
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:21,720
That's amazing, but really it's 
for just about anybody, from a 

966
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:25,320
pet parent just wanting to feed 
their own individual pet all the

967
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,280
way up through a company trying 
to feed a population exactly of 

968
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:31,560
animals. 
That's amazing. 

969
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,440
I love it. 
So people can go to 

970
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,320
animaldietformulator.com. 
That's it. 

971
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:38,800
Check it out. 
Yeah, yeah. 

972
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,520
Is there anything else that you 
want to plug? 

973
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:45,480
Do you have like I know you said
you have the CIBT podcast you do

974
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:46,720
and. 
Yeah. 

975
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:51,520
So, yeah, so CIBT, the original 
podcast there is the integrative

976
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,720
veterinarian and Doctor Neil 
Civila hosts that and he 

977
00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:57,960
interviews veterinarians who do 
anything in the integrative 

978
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,760
animal health space. 
And my podcast is kind of the 

979
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,320
spin off of that and it's called
the Integrative Animal Health 

980
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,920
Collective. 
So I'm interviewing not 

981
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:10,280
veterinarians, but anyone else 
in the animal health world who's

982
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,400
doing something in the 
integrative space. 

983
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:17,560
So it's semi regular 
approximately it's released 

984
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,000
approximately 1 to 2 * a month. 
And it's we're fairly new. 

985
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,000
I think we have maybe 10 
episodes so far. 

986
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,760
So more to come. 
Yay. 

987
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:31,800
Well, I appreciate everything 
you do and all of the education 

988
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,440
that you have out there, 
everything you participate in 

989
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,640
because this is a, it's 
important Again, I, I go through

990
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,560
these phases of like, I'm 
pulling my hair out. 

991
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,200
This is so complicated and like 
this is easy so. 

992
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:49,680
Me too girl, me too. 
I definitely can find myself 

993
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,040
getting in the weeds in the in 
the animal diet formulator, but 

994
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:56,520
I appreciate it nonetheless. 
So thank you so much for being 

995
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:58,440
here. 
I can't wait to to see you in 

996
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,720
person again and just excited 
for everything you have going 

997
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:04,840
on. 
Thank you so much for having me 

998
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,360
and thank you for everything 
you're doing. 

999
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,600
And yeah, looking forward to 
seeing you again. 

1000
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,240
Awesome. 
Well, thank you for being here, 

1001
00:55:11,240 --> 00:55:13,080
Doctor Wrecker, everybody 
listening. 

1002
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,480
Thank you for being here for 
this conversation. 

1003
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:19,400
I just want to say how much I 
appreciate you, especially this 

1004
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,600
year has been a tough one. 
But yeah, we're going to keep 

1005
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:24,320
going. 
We're going to keep doing all 

1006
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,680
the things with all the 
incredible guests coming up 

1007
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,960
throughout the rest of the year.
And give your pets some extra 

1008
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,840
love from me and from Doctor 
Susan Wrecker this week. 

1009
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:34,880
I'll talk to you next week.