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Hi everybody, welcome back to 
the weekly Pet Roundup. 

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My name is Jessica. 
I'm with the Pet Parenting 

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Reset. 
This is Isabel with covered and 

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pet hair and Hi. 
So this week we were talking 

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about dog bites. 
And I think, I mean, obviously 

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there's a lot of like dog bite 
prevention that can be talked 

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about. 
But I know last week when you 

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were suggesting this, you were 
like, we need to get kind of in 

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the nitty gritty of this and 
like realize that this is not 

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sometimes you have to make 
really hard decisions. 

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So yeah, I'm going to let, I'm 
going to let you start off with 

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like where you want this I think
to go because it's a big, it's a

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big topic and it it can be a 
very emotional topic as well. 

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Yes. 
So trigger warning for today, 

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first of all, because we will 
probably discuss behavioral 

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euthanasia, which is when you 
put a dog and we're talking 

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about dogs specifically today 
when we when we put a dog down 

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because of a behavior, because 
of escalating behaviors, because

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of bites and bite histories, 
because that dog is incompatible

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with life as we know it. 
So that is behavioral euthanasia

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as best as I can explain it. 
There are many reasons for 

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behavioral euthanasia. 
But today we'll talk about bite 

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related euthanasia. 
And the reason I wanted to talk 

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about this topic is because a 
friend of mine from the DC area 

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reached out and she says that a 
friend of hers found a dog. 

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The details escaped me right 
now. 

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I read them when the Facebook 
message came in, but and the dog

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ended up staying with them. 
And the time frame again, I'm 

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not 100% on, but over the time 
that they've had them, let's say

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in the past year or two, the dog
has bit resource guarding was 

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mentioned around meal times. 
And immediately I thought, OK, 

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management, but I didn't dig 
into the situation because I 

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don't want to make this a 
personal discussion about this 

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case. 
I want to talk about it more 

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generally. 
But one of the recommendations 

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that this particular family has 
received is behavioral 

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euthanasia. 
So I thought this is a 

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conversation that a lot of 
people have and it's actually a 

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lot more common than many people
maybe think. 

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And I know that people have 
conversations about behavioral 

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euthanasia relating to fear as 
well and separation anxiety when

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like it just escalates so bad 
that the pet is a danger to 

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himself and others, him or 
herself and others. 

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So, but we'll talk about, you 
know, like just bites in general

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and when a dog is biting so 
often and in ways that make it 

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really hard for training to 
work. 

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Yeah. 
What we do as humans to set them

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up for failure often and how we 
can set them up for success. 

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So first I think the most 
important thing is to understand

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that what a bite is. 
So I did look up and if you have

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any experiences with this kind 
of stuff, please join in 

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comments either on Facebook, on 
YouTube or on Instagram and 

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we'll we'll get to you as soon 
as there's a little pause. 

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But there are bike scales out 
there. 

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The one that I always kind of 
refer to is the Dunbar bike 

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scale dog bike scale. 
It's Ian Dunbar is a really well

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known dog trainer. 
I've heard him speak at at a 

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couple conferences. 
I have a lot of respect for him.

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I've kind of lost track with him
of him for over the past few 

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years. 
He's one of your OG like 

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positive trainers. 
He. 

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Is and I, I've taken a few of 
his courses online and I think 

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the reason that you have, you 
may not have heard from him in a

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while is because he, I think his
son is taking over the business.

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Probably retirement age, right? 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
And I'm sure there's some 

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difficulties in that, you know, 
because it's not the same 

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person, though I'm sure he has 
the same style of training 

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because that's what he grew up 
with, that's what he knows. 

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And yeah, I think I, I still get
emails pretty regularly from 

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them. 
I say them because I think his 

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father is still involved in some
ways and making like, not 

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necessarily the everyday 
content, but like if they need 

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to do like a YouTube video or, 
you know, put out a course or, 

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or whatever, like his, I think 
his father is still involved in 

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that. 
But yeah, I, I think he's 

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probably one of my favorite 
resources for, for dog training.

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Absolutely. 
Same. 

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So he, he and one. 
One would think that there would

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be this would be kind of well 
known, but I know for a fact 

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most pet parents don't know 
about the Dunbar bite scale. 

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I know that professional pet 
sitters may not even know about 

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it. 
Some of the newer ones I know 

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the ones who've had a lot of 
studying and and done a lot of 

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education in the industry do. 
But it is something that I feel 

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like people don't know about. 
And I think it's so important 

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that every single pet parent 
know about this scale, because a

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snap. 
Is considered. 

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A bite. 
And yeah. 

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A lot of people are like, oh, he
didn't bite, he just snapped. 

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And what I love about this scale
is that it is considered level 1

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is a dog to snap and make no 
contact. 

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That is level 1 bites. 
And what that's so important for

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pet parents to know because 
people don't take notice until 

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you get to like a Level 3 and 
then. 

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And. 
Sometimes it's really the a lot 

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of damage has been done. 
Not to say it's too late, but a 

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lot of damage has been done. 
So pet parents, dog parents, if 

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your dog is one that snaps 
Satchmo, my the dog that I just 

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took from my sister snaps all 
the time, which is one of the 

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reasons why he doesn't live with
a toddler right now. 

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He lives in my house where my 
kids are older and literally 

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just ignore him. 
They've been told to never pet 

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him and they don't. 
But you can't tell a toddler 

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that who's 16 months, right? 
On the contrary, he looks like a

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stuffed animal. 
So that toddler would just go 

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after him. 
And a lot of people are like, 

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oh, just teach the toddler. 
That just tells me you don't 

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have toddlers, you have no 
experience with toddlers. 

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They're like, they have a death 
wish. 

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You can tell them not to jump 
off a Cliff and they will. 

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So that's why you hold on tight 
to them. 

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So, yeah, so the bite levels for
the Dunbar Dog bite scale start 

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at level 1, which is again a 
snap. 

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There is a an aggressive 
reactive open of the mouth, snap

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of the teeth or even just a 
redirection that looks 

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aggressive. 
And there is no contact made on 

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the person or pet or animal that
they're being they're trying to 

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bite or that they're trying to 
warn because of a lot of us call

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it warning. 
Warning bites too, right? 

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Yeah, and I, Kim has done this. 
I'm not going to like, I'm not 

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going to lie. 
And I took, I took it very, very

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seriously. 
And I think that's one thing 

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that pet parents often don't do 
is they're like, oh, that's 

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cute, that's funny. 
That's not cute, that's not 

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funny. 
It's it is natural. 

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Like we are putting a dog in an 
environment that is not natural 

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to them, giving them no real 
instruction that they 

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understand. 
Just saying no to them all the 

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time, right? 
Without telling them what they 

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should be doing instead, or 
showing them what they should be

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doing instead. 
And then expecting them to act 

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the way we want them to act 
without having taught them any 

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of it. 
Like that's in my opinion. 

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And a lot of people will be 
like, well, it's communication. 

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He's communicating. 
And I'll say he just because 

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it's easier for me to refer to 
dogs in general as he. 

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I think actually in the pet 
industry or in the dog training 

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industry, usually they refer to 
dogs as female like cars and 

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stuff. 
But I literally, if you're going

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to compare a dog to a car and 
call it female just because of 

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that, I'm going to do the 
opposite. 

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So it is I'm just going to refer
to all of them as as he in this 

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scenario just so I don't have to
correct myself. 

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But yes, your dog is 
communicating when they do a 

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level 1 bite, which is AKA a 
snap aaka, a warning bite, AKA a

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request for space. 
It is communication. 

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The problem is that that dog 
should have other ways of 

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communicating that don't get to 
the level where it's almost a 

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bite. 
And what we're seeing when a dog

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almost bites in a level 1 is 
that either you ignored the 

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communication that became prior 
or that dog doesn't have the 

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tools to communicate prior, 
which is something that I'm not.

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You can't always blame the 
human. 

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A lot of the times you can blame
the human. 

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But like with Satchmo, I saw 
him, I witnessed him ages ago 

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jump on my grandmother's lap. 
She did not, she does not like 

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dogs. 
She did not invite him up. 

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She did not want anything to do 
with him. 

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And then she kind of looked at 
him. 

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And as she looked down, she 
moved and he snapped her. 

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So he. 
Very Chihuahua thing to do. 

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I know he's not a Chihuahua, but
yes, that's a. 

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Very. 
That's a very confused and 

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secure, unsocialized, under 
socialized dog thing to do. 

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He jumped on her because it was 
storming. 

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But then he got there and he was
like, but don't touch me. 

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Right. 
Yeah. 

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Right. 
So he doesn't have the tools. 

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He doesn't have the 
communication. 

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In his case, my grandmother did 
nothing wrong. 

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And obviously she was in a rock 
and a hard place because if she 

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had been like, get off of me, he
would have been on her for real.

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So she was just kind of like, 
oh, she doesn't like pets. 

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So she didn't want him on her at
all. 

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She's the only one in my family 
of significant pets lovers that 

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is like, I don't care about dogs
and cats. 

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Like I don't care about them. 
A cat attacked her when she was 

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little. 
So from that, from then on, it 

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was like terrified, petrified of
pets. 

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That probably didn't help the 
situation either because he 

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thought he maybe he thought he 
was jumping on my mom and he 

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ended up on the lady who doesn't
like him. 

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And so there's a lot of 
psychology at play, right? 

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But at the end of the day, if 
they're communicating by 

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snapping at you, they're that's 
why we take that so seriously, 

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because that means that either 
you're disrespecting your dog's 

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boundaries and you're ignoring 
other communication that comes 

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before the bite, like licking 
the lips, like yawning, like 

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looking away, like whale I all 
those appeasement signs that we 

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refer to as appeasement signs, 
you're ignoring all of those. 

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And then you're pushing your dog
to this. 

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Right. 
Yeah. 

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Your dog doesn't have the words,
which also does happen and like 

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we need to. 
And those are the dogs that I 

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think are at highest risk for 
behavioral euthanasia because 

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those are the dogs that are so 
unpredictable that sometimes we 

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end up in the situation where 
it's like, I don't know when 

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he's going to bite. 
I don't know what triggers the 

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bite. 
So now I'm really scared of this

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dog escalating and hurting 
somebody and not having the 

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tools to solve it. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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Well, and I think yes, aside 
from those dogs who don't have 

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those tools, who, who don't, 
don't have any warning signs 

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because they just don't know 
they those types of dogs set 

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those aside for a minute. 
And, and like, when I think 

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about so many of the bite cases,
it is all I can see in my mind 

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are like these videos that 
people post on social media of, 

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you know, their children, their 
toddlers, like pulling and 

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jumping on top of the backs of. 
And it's like, this is not 

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funny. 
This is not cute. 

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This. 
And, and, you know, you can see 

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in this animal's body language, 
in their eyes that they are so 

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uncomfortable and they are 
trying so hard not to bite. 

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And those are the ones that like
just break my heart because 

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that's going to be the very 
first time that dog bites. 

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They're going to get put down 
when? 

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That happened to me with a 
friend. 

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Friends were over ages ago with 
their toddler and my dog's socks

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had a bite history and we had 
never seen her bite anybody. 

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But she bit like a neighbor 
because the mailman was coming 

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and the dog Walker had her on 
too far thing. 

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And it was like that perfect 
storm and the lady was too close

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and she like snapped and she did
a Level 3, a single bite with a 

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shallow wound. 
It was a tiny little nick, but 

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it was still a Level 3. 
We're not going to make excuses 

227
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,840
for her. 
But but that was like that had 

228
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,280
been like 3 years prior. 
We hadn't seen any kind of 

229
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,640
behavior like that. 
We had had the dogs away. 

230
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,760
We take them outside because 
it's about to storm. 

231
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,560
And so we're like the Fort 
starts raining. 

232
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,040
Let me let's let's let them pee.
We're going to put them back 

233
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,800
into the room where they were in
and the toddler starts really 

234
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,800
getting into that. 
Of all the four dogs we had the 

235
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,640
one with the bite history, I got
distracted and Chris was 

236
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,680
monitoring. 
Chris was my husband was, was 

237
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,720
supervising, which was our first
mistake. 

238
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,360
I'm the one with the pet 
experience. 

239
00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,600
I'm the one who has done dog 
training and who's learned dog 

240
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,120
behavior. 
I was getting something for one 

241
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,040
of my guests playing Hostess, 
right? 

242
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:10,240
And Chris was like, hey, don't 
she doesn't. 

243
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,400
Socks doesn't like she's scared 
of strangers or something. 

244
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,360
And the mom was very chill about
the situation. 

245
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:24,320
And Socks actually walked with 
cameras in our home just because

246
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,600
we had two dogs that didn't 
super get along. 

247
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,720
So we always wanted to see like,
if something happened, we want 

248
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,920
to be able to replay it. 
They were craving separately 

249
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,720
when we weren't there. 
It's usually what happens 

250
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,920
usually was when we were there, 
there was like a scuffle and we 

251
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:38,680
wanted to see what happened. 
So we had cameras. 

252
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,760
And when I watched the camera 
over, I saw how Sox was walking 

253
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,760
away from the child, but the 
child kept following her. 

254
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:53,640
And then you hear the mom saying
don't, don't climb the dog. 

255
00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,480
So she saw that he was about to 
kind of climb the dog and you 

256
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:07,560
see my dog tense up and go and 
it she in this case thank God it

257
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,720
was a level 2 where the teeth 
made contact but did not break 

258
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,920
the skin. 
She was a 65 LB dog and he was a

259
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,600
toddler. 
If she wanted to hurt him, she 

260
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,360
ABS 100% would have hurt him. 
Yeah. 

261
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,640
Angels, our ancestors, our 
angels, our spirit guides. 

262
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:29,320
Everybody. 
Somebody was. 

263
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,680
Everybody was there to protect 
that child, but I was told it 

264
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,760
was unprovoked until I saw the 
video and I said it's not 

265
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,200
unprovoked. 
She's walking away and the child

266
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,400
is following her and so is the 
mom who she doesn't know. 

267
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,720
So even though for the mom it 
was like I'm supervising my kid 

268
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:51,960
now. 
It's two strangers, not just 

269
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,760
one, right? 
So like it's mom's mom was 

270
00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,240
completely right to be right 
there guiding the child. 

271
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,080
But the dog is like 2 strangers 
and Chris was there but he was 

272
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,800
kind of mind them so it socks 
his mind. 

273
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,000
He wasn't there to reinforce 
anything or protect her because 

274
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,480
she was too far away. 
He was between these two 

275
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,560
threats. 
In her mind they were threats. 

276
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:20,440
And this is a dog that had been 
trained with shock choke prong 

277
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,960
collars, a dog with a ton of 
stranger danger. 

278
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:31,960
And so in her mind, it was 1000%
provoked in my husband's mind. 

279
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,880
And what the obviously the 
toddler, it's not his fault in 

280
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,160
any way. 
Like he like we should never 

281
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:42,560
have set him up in that way or 
her really human adult human 

282
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:47,000
failure. 
And obviously the mom was way 

283
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,280
too cool with like don't climb 
the dog. 

284
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,400
Like if I'm super paranoid about
dog kid relations. 

285
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,920
So I'd be like, how dare you 
even get near the dog? 

286
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,840
Walk away now, right? 
Like if I have to tell you not 

287
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,640
to climb a dog, you're way in 
the dog space completely. 

288
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,880
So like everybody kind of like 
dropped the ball and myself 

289
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,839
included. 
And the kid got fit. 

290
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:12,599
And everybody who did not know 
dog behavior said it was 

291
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,280
unprovoked when, when I watched 
it back and I sent it to a 

292
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,839
friend of mine and my then 
business partner who had just 

293
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,960
gone through like Karen Pryor 
and Victoria Stillwell's 

294
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,480
training. 
And she was like unprovoked and 

295
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,560
she was and you know, because 
she, she knew Socks, my, my 

296
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,440
former business partner. 
And she said, I'm so proud of 

297
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,200
socks. 
Did you see her walking away? 

298
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,440
Did you see her be like, I don't
like this, I'm going to walk 

299
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,040
into the other room? 
And it was so funny because, 

300
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,600
yes, somebody with that 
experience and that knowledge 

301
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,040
sees that the dog tried to avoid
it and the humans set her up for

302
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,120
failure, right? 
Yeah. 

303
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,440
And the same thing happened with
Noah and Socks a few years 

304
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,680
later. 
She was resource guarding me. 

305
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,520
I said to Chris, this is getting
tense. 

306
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,200
I could see her. 
I could see her. 

307
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,840
And by the time Chris men make 
his way over, she snapped at 

308
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,920
Noah. 
And that's when I actually had 

309
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:08,760
to consider behavioral 
euthanasia for Socks, which she 

310
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,400
had never she had gotten to a 
level 2 once and we're going to 

311
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,080
go into it goes to level 6 guys 
and I even had to consider 

312
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,160
behavioral euthanasia with this 
dog. 

313
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,000
I thankfully did not have to 
make that decision because she 

314
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,120
got we managed it really 
beautifully. 

315
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,880
And then one day she just got 
sick and died of unrelated 

316
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,480
things. 
She was older, so we did not 

317
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,040
have to face that, but she only 
got to a level 2, which is teeth

318
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,040
make contact but do not break 
the skin with my son. 

319
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,080
But after that was the second 
level 2 with a toddler and I had

320
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,800
a toddler and I was pregnant 
with my second. 

321
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,480
It was very, very concerning, 
right? 

322
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:52,080
Concerning that this dog is 
incompatible with toddlers. 

323
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,160
But I'm the most experienced pet
owner she could probably have, 

324
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,720
right? 
Like where else does she go from

325
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,280
my house? 
Right. 

326
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,880
Like yeah, yeah, other than 
somebody without kids. 

327
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,240
Well, but then still because. 
She still had a blind history. 

328
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,080
Right. 
Who was going to take her? 

329
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,440
Right? 
So she had years before bitten 

330
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,520
the neighbor because the mailman
blah blah blah. 

331
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:17,840
Yeah. 
Who was going to take her with 

332
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:22,360
like now 2 level 2 bites and one
Level 3 bite Nobody like. 

333
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,800
So it was one of those 
situations where you run out of 

334
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,440
choices. 
So Level 3 again is a single 

335
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,800
bite with shallow wounds. 
And that's what this and like 

336
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,920
the person that sucks bit who 
was a neighbor, we didn't know 

337
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,120
them but like obviously we the 
dog Walker gave the information 

338
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:41,520
because once there's any kind of
puncture you need to get like 

339
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,040
the rabies certificates and all 
that. 

340
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,840
So all that was done and we paid
like her co-pay. 

341
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,680
She went to like urgent care, 
they cleaned it out and it was 

342
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,560
like a non issue like $35 or 
something. 

343
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:56,000
It was not a big deal, but it 
did obviously it becomes the 

344
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,080
second that there is any kind of
puncture, any kind of wound, it 

345
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:06,360
becomes an issue with animal 
control rabies certifications or

346
00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:10,560
certificates, you know, making 
sure that's why socks like even 

347
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,680
though I wanted to tighter test 
her, I always got her vaccinated

348
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:18,760
because I couldn't risk that she
would not have that certificate 

349
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,360
because she had a bite history 
and I knew that dogs with a bite

350
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:24,320
history tend to bite again and 
if. 

351
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,080
She had a rabies certificate. 
She could quarantine at the 

352
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,880
house. 
If she didn't, she could end up 

353
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,200
somewhere else quarantining or 
they could force us to euthanize

354
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,040
if there was enough of these 
incidents. 

355
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,680
So I really was very scared to 
vaccinate her every three years,

356
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,880
but I had to for her sake. 
That's the only dog that I've 

357
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,600
ever had where I was like, I 
have to do this every three 

358
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,480
years. 
And then level 4 is a single 

359
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:54,160
bite with deep wounds. 
And obviously that's like either

360
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,520
1 puncture or like, you know, 
the whole, all of the both 

361
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,920
canines or something like that 
that goes in pretty deep. 

362
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,600
Level 5 is multiple bites with 
deep wounds. 

363
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,040
They went in once and they went 
back and they went back and they

364
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,360
went back. 
And then level 6 is obviously 

365
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,320
the death of the victim and or 
flesh consumed. 

366
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,200
And like we, we refer to those 
as maulings. 

367
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:26,120
Level 6 is a. 
Mauling yeah, I couldn't 

368
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:27,560
imagine. 
I really. 

369
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,040
I mean I I understand it happens
but of. 

370
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:36,800
That of for everybody involved. 
I have a friend who she was 

371
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,640
mauled by a dog. 
She was a professional pet 

372
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,320
sitter for longer than I was and
then she's never been able to 

373
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,840
take care of dogs again. 
She's such a she's such a fear. 

374
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,600
She recognizes where she went 
wrong, but still like it's just 

375
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,920
too scary right. 
Like her faith in, in, in 

376
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,560
knowing how to prevent it when 
like she lost faith in herself 

377
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,720
knowing how to prevent it, 
right. 

378
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:06,320
And so she felt until that 
incident that she was prepared 

379
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,400
with her education, her 
experience to manage or to kind 

380
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,440
of. 
And she says that she could, I 

381
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,480
mean, she could have died. 
She got a level 5. 

382
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,440
Thankfully he never got her down
on the ground. 

383
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:25,360
But in her mind, if he had 
succeeded in pushing her down to

384
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,680
the ground, he would have gotten
to a level 6. 

385
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,800
And the thing about pet sitter 
is dog walkers is that you're 

386
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,240
alone in the house. 
So there's nobody else to help 

387
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,360
you, right? 
So like that's really when these

388
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:44,120
level fives and sixes happen is 
when you're alone or like, you 

389
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:45,600
know. 
Or. 

390
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,960
You're walking in your 
neighborhood and a dog attacks 

391
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,800
and you don't don't have anybody
near you to help you. 

392
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,560
It's you and your dog. 
And again, bite levels are just 

393
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,640
bite levels. 
It doesn't mean against a human,

394
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,280
it could be against another dog 
and it could be another animal 

395
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,040
like a cat. 
We kind of take it less 

396
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,480
seriously. 
I feel like if a dog bites a cat

397
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,760
because it's like they're, 
they're like out in the wild 

398
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,600
versus obviously in your home, 
very different because then 

399
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,880
where, where was the management?
Where was the intro? 

400
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,840
But like, I feel like if a dog 
bites another dog at a dog park,

401
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,160
it's a lot more severe than a 
dog gets off leash and like 

402
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,280
chases a cat and like catches 
it, right? 

403
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,960
Like very different situations, 
scenarios. 

404
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,640
And so but but a bite level just
refers to a bite, no matter 

405
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,960
who's on the receiving end of 
it. 

406
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,680
Yeah. 
And I think, I mean, I've 

407
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,160
definitely heard of people 
having dogs and cats in the same

408
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,200
house and the dogs killing the 
cats. 

409
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,080
That's that's a thing. 
And I can understand how 

410
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,640
traumatic that would be as well.
And that even though that is 

411
00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,720
especially for some dog I 
actually worked with a couple 

412
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:09,240
many years ago who fortunately 
did not have cats in the house, 

413
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:16,280
but would go crazy on a walk if 
it came across a cat. 

414
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,200
And it was a big dog and it was 
a mixed breed dog. 

415
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,280
And as soon as I got there, I 
could see I was like, I I 

416
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,560
realize this is a mixed breed 
dog, but you could see the 

417
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,440
Ridgeback on this dog. 
And I'm like, will you have? 

418
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,440
Yeah, mix with a Rhodesian 
Ridgeback and these dogs were 

419
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,000
bred to hunt lions. 
And so this is another reason 

420
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:46,440
why I am, even though it seems 
silly and frivolous to get DNA 

421
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,280
tests on dogs, like, you know, 
I, I, I actually really, really 

422
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:56,840
like them because it can give 
you a lot of insight into what, 

423
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,520
even if it's a bunch of 
different breeds, like what were

424
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,160
those breeds bred for? 
What should you expect in the 

425
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,560
behavior of this animal? 
And I, and it reminds me of 

426
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,760
like, I think there was actually
ATV, one of the shows that 

427
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,680
Jackson Galaxy did where he 
trained multiple Rhodesian 

428
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,680
Ridgebacks in a home that had 
cats. 

429
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,080
And like, it was about 
management. 

430
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,720
It really was about management. 
And I think it was, yeah, 

431
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,000
because they were like, they 
wanted to give their cats a 

432
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,080
really good life, but they 
couldn't because they had these 

433
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,720
dogs. 
And, and I, I only bring that up

434
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,240
to say that like, there are a 
lot of reasons. 

435
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,520
It's not just aggression. 
It's not just poor 

436
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,280
socialization. 
It's not just you did something 

437
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,320
wrong, though I do feel like 
that is the case in a lot of 

438
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,520
situations. 
Just because we don't know, 

439
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:55,320
we're not trained, we're not 
very well prepared, honest to 

440
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,520
goodness, like, you know, you 
take a baby home, you take a dog

441
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,400
home, you take a cat home, you 
get no training on how to do any

442
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,720
of this right And, and honestly.
We we've been. 

443
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,880
I think there's people who, like
my grandmother, will never 

444
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,920
forget that it's an animal. 
In her mind, it's an animal. 

445
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,800
Like cats are filthy. 
They belong outside. 

446
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,320
Dogs eat garbage. 
They belong outside, right? 

447
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,680
So like in her, she's like an 
extreme. 

448
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,560
And then we have the other 
extreme where most of us are on 

449
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,760
the people who love pets and 
share our lives with them. 

450
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,320
Is that where they're like our 
babies? 

451
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Yeah. 
They're not our babies, they're 

452
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,720
animals, right? 
Like they're just like we are. 

453
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,840
And when the second we start 
accepting that they're animals 

454
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,080
and our different species of 
animal than we are the better 

455
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,240
equipped we are to handle 
things. 

456
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,600
But when we are like, we are 
that, that cloud that those pink

457
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,040
colored, those rose colored 
sunglasses on where they're like

458
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,000
our sweet little babies. 
They're not our sweet little 

459
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,000
babies. 
Like they have huge canines that

460
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,920
were designed to like tear 
flesh. 

461
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,520
And that's for both cats and 
dogs. 

462
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,800
And the bigger the dog, the 
bigger the bite, right? 

463
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,240
So like the reason why more big 
dog dog bites fall on the bigger

464
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,600
dogs is because they have the 
bigger mouths and the bigger 

465
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,320
jaws and they make more of a 
dent. 

466
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,960
If we just, if we were to just 
analyze all the Chihuahua bites,

467
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:22,480
they would talk about of, of 
biters, right? 

468
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,280
But that's not, they're kind of 
inconsequential sometimes. 

469
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,720
And luckily a lot of people 
don't suffer any like long term,

470
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,160
like with a cat bite, you have 
to be super careful because cats

471
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,680
have so much bacteria in their 
mouth. 

472
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,280
And a lot of people with dogs, 
it's not as bad. 

473
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,360
They don't puncture as far. 
So like it doesn't become like 

474
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:42,320
that huge issue. 
Even though you should always 

475
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,240
seek veterinary medical 
attention or veterinary 

476
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,800
attention if your dog gets 
bitten or cat gets bitten. 

477
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,400
But we're more scared of cat 
bites than we are of Chihuahua 

478
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,800
bites, even though they're about
the same size. 

479
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,000
But then we're of course, super 
scared of a pit bull bite or a 

480
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,720
Rhodesian ridgeback bite because
these are very powerful dogs 

481
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,600
that can really do some damage. 
But all dogs bite. 

482
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,440
All dogs bite for many reasons, 
like you said. 

483
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,320
I'm a pet first aid instructor, 
and the first thing I say is you

484
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,520
want to get bit. 
Start administering first aid to

485
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,880
a dog that's injured without 
muzzling it. 

486
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,040
Like you want to get bit. 
That's a really good way to get 

487
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,280
bit because one of the biggest 
things we do is teach how to use

488
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,760
like a leash or something as a 
muzzle to wrap it around the 

489
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,240
mouth and do this and do that. 
Or we set like in my classes, I 

490
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,360
would sell these little just 
like long felt things that you 

491
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:37,920
could keep in your in your first
aid kit. 

492
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,640
Like if you're hiking with your 
dog and your dog gets something,

493
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,760
some kind of puncture or 
something, you don't go in and 

494
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,760
start bandaging your dog or 
putting some kind of antiseptic 

495
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,800
on that wound unless that dog is
muscled because the dog that is 

496
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,520
moved into pain or is in pain 
will bite you. 

497
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,280
Absolutely. 
That is just one of the million 

498
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,480
reasons why a dog will bite you.
It and and that brings up a good

499
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,080
point because you may not even 
know your dog is in truth, 

500
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,480
meaning they could be older and 
experiencing arthritis. 

501
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,000
They could have twisted their 
leg and you don't know it. 

502
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,200
Like there are a lot of reason 
they could have something 

503
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,640
internally going on that you 
don't. 

504
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,520
They can have cancer and you 
don't know, you know what I 

505
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,920
mean? 
Like there are so many reasons 

506
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,040
why a dog could be in pain and 
you don't even know and. 

507
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,240
They're in pain. 
That's why I think people do see

508
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,000
more bites as their dogs age, 
because they start as like 

509
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,600
little warnings and then they 
escalate, not only because we 

510
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,160
continue to ignore them, but 
also because as they get older, 

511
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,720
their tolerance gets smaller. 
Yes, absolutely. 

512
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,320
Right, like and they're not now 
it's I have less tolerance. 

513
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:53,560
I have more fear around my pain 
or around my just like knowing 

514
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,480
that I'm not as agile as I used 
to be. 

515
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,360
I have maybe cognitive decline 
where I don't remember how to 

516
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,960
manage this situation. 
So like all of it just 

517
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,360
compounds. 
And now we see these old dogs 

518
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,560
biting and the first thing I 
would say, if your dog is old 

519
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,320
and biting, go to the vet 
immediately go to the vet, tell 

520
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,520
your vet. 
I was I was touching him here 

521
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,360
and he bit me like the only time
that no, that Noah Titan and 

522
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,760
Noah, I always I was confused 
them Titan, my first love, the 

523
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,080
love of my life, the reason that
I'm in this industry. 

524
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,480
Titan, the only time he ever 
snapped at me again, level one, 

525
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,680
I'm going to call it a snap, but
it's a bite, was when I was like

526
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,960
touching his paw or something. 
And I didn't cut his nails 

527
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,520
because I knew he was super. 
But I like I, I think I went to 

528
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,840
like see if he they had like cut
it too short or something. 

529
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,360
And he kind of like was like, 
whoa, whoa, whoa, don't touch 

530
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,760
it. 
And I hadn't even touched it 

531
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,360
yet, but it was like don't touch
it. 

532
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,320
And he had never done that to 
me, right. 

533
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,200
But now he was 15 years old. 
So now there were a lot more 

534
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,280
layers, a lot more reasons to 
defend himself than there were 

535
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,680
maybe when I did the exact same 
thing and he was 5. 

536
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,560
So we have to remember that 
like, and then people get 

537
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:12,160
really, they take it personally.
I did not take that personally 

538
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,560
at all. 
Like it did not mean to me that 

539
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,160
Titan didn't love me anymore. 
It didn't mean like, it didn't 

540
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,480
mean that he's a jerk. 
A lot of people put like a lot 

541
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,640
of human emotions around dog 
bites. 

542
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,280
What they are is a communication
and it's something we need to 

543
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,520
pay attention to, but it's not 
personal unless we know we can 

544
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,840
recognize like, I did something 
wrong. 

545
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,560
I put my dog in a bad situation 
and then it's a moment of 

546
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,440
self-awareness that you need but
it's not something you take 

547
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,720
personally. 
It's like, Oh my dog didn't like

548
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,240
that and I need to respect that.
But a lot of times I find that 

549
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,400
after multiple bites people 
start resenting the dog, which. 

550
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,920
Yeah. 
Does not help the situation at 

551
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,680
all. 
No. 

552
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,920
And, you know, again, it's the 
psychology of humans and not 

553
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,920
understanding, not, I think 
that's not understanding like 

554
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,680
what's going on with your dog. 
And just thinking that very 

555
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,720
similarly to like, you know, how
we, how so many people think of 

556
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:22,000
like cats going outside of a 
litter box as being like 

557
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,240
they're, they're they're upset 
about something. 

558
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,640
They're trying to get back at 
you. 

559
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,440
You're like, no, that's not 
what's happening at all. 

560
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,640
And I think that's very similar 
with, you know, dog behaviors 

561
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,680
that people don't understand. 
And so they're like, well, you 

562
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,400
know, there's there's a problem.
They're being mean. 

563
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,280
They don't like me. 
They're they're angry about 

564
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,680
something. 
Well, yeah, they may actually be

565
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,120
angry about something, but 
they're they're really trying to

566
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,600
communicate with you in the best
way they know how. 

567
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,400
And they just may not know a 
better way to to get that across

568
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,560
to you. 
And like you said, the older 

569
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,200
they get, the less tolerance 
they have. 

570
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,160
Same with cats. 
Same. 

571
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,480
With and I mean same with. 
Well, yes, I'm telling you, yes.

572
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,320
I go to AI, go to an assisted 
living community twice a week. 

573
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,720
My grandmother is an assisted 
living and old people do not 

574
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,920
hold their tongue. 
They're constantly fighting 

575
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,840
somebody about something. 
Their tolerance levels are low. 

576
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,920
They have to have things very 
routine. 

577
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,440
They have to have things the way
they want it. 

578
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,480
So this is not just our pets. 
This is just an aging thing, 

579
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,920
right? 
It's part of aging in any 

580
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,360
species is where we become less 
adaptable as we age. 

581
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,720
We become less inhibited as we 
age, and we often have less 

582
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680
control of our reactions and our
emotions as we age. 

583
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,320
My grandmother is like so sad 
all the time. 

584
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,560
Whereas in the same situation 20
years ago, she might have made 

585
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,400
the best of it, right? 
So like, it's one of those 

586
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,880
things where like she really 
struggles. 

587
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,040
And I've seen, I've seen couples
hit each other at assisted 

588
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,800
living where I guarantee you 
they may have had a toxic 

589
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,920
marriage, but they weren't like 
on a random day just slapping 

590
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,760
each other with a, with a purse,
right? 

591
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,719
So like, you know, people, 
people expect so much of pets 

592
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,400
when we're seeing it in humans 
where they can't control their 

593
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,560
emotions. 
And if you've ever had like an 

594
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,520
aging parent or relative, you 
see that they start like cursing

595
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,040
and where you may have never 
seen them cursing your whole 

596
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,679
life, they start, you know, 
being aggressive. 

597
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,840
So they might have been the 
happiest person on the planet. 

598
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,600
And that's usually because of 
cognitive decline, some kind of 

599
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,239
neurological situation, which 
they can, we can actually notice

600
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,520
in humans because there are 
changes to their behavior and to

601
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,760
their vocabulary. 
And so they can tell you, I 

602
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,239
don't remember that or I can, 
our pets can't tell us what they

603
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,800
can and cannot remember. 
So like, now we're just 

604
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,720
guessing. 
And that's why the older the pet

605
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,200
gets, the less I want them 
around children. 

606
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,640
Especially. 
Especially if they've never had 

607
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,440
children. 
An old dog does not care about 

608
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,800
your cute new baby or toddler. 
They don't care. 

609
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,720
They don't care. 
They don't want to be besties 

610
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:18,720
with it. 
They don't want to take pictures

611
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:20,320
with it. 
They don't want to lay in the 

612
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,880
same bed with it. 
They don't want anything to do 

613
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,640
with it. 
If your dog is the Super duper 

614
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,800
exception, I'm sorry. 
I'd rather you not know it. 

615
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,160
I'd rather you. 
Preserve this child. 

616
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,240
To the point where you are like 
militant around your dog and 

617
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,520
children, especially if the 
older they get. 

618
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,840
Titan was I think 12 when Noah 
was born, maybe a little, maybe 

619
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,920
11. 
And I can tell you it ruined his

620
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,160
life. 
He was like, what have you done?

621
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,880
What are you doing? 
None of my dogs. 

622
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:57,480
I had four when Noah was born, 2
when Mila was born, and none of 

623
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,640
them were really that impressed 
with a new baby. 

624
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,560
And the only one that I think 
will be really impressed is if 

625
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,160
you get a puppy once your 
toddler or young child is 

626
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,080
already a young child or 
whatever. 

627
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,160
And then of course a puppy's 
going to love kids because they 

628
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,760
have similar energies and 
they're whatever. 

629
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,800
But like, the biggest concern 
for me with fights is always 

630
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,560
pets and children. 
And it's always the younger the 

631
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,880
child, the bigger the even if 
it's a small dog. 

632
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,840
Like I remember there was a Jack
Russell that mauled a baby to, 

633
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:38,720
you know, fatally mauled a baby.
And it was like, why was that 

634
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,240
baby left? 
Like where the Jack Russell 

635
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,680
could, could, could reach it 
because maybe he had never even 

636
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,080
exhibited any signs of anything.
But like, that's why you are so 

637
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,640
duper, super, duper careful 
about pets and kids. 

638
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,160
And and then there are kids who,
even if you supervise them, just

639
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,720
don't know how to deal with 
dogs. 

640
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,640
I've seen that happen multiple 
times. 

641
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:05,040
I've seen a friend of a friend 
who like does not stop until 

642
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,520
they get what they want from the
pet. 

643
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,480
Like if they want the pet 
sitting on their lap, they're 

644
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,800
going to do it whether the pet 
doesn't want to. 

645
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,960
And if your pet, your kid is 
still 12 years old doing that, 

646
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,280
your kid has no business being 
around a pet. 

647
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,840
And if you're that way as an 
adult, then you have some really

648
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,520
big waking up to do like the 
pets are. 

649
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,800
Aren't these pets our pets, our 
dogs are not in our life to just

650
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,800
to do everything that we want 
them to do. 

651
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,120
And the more we push them, the 
more we're going to see bites. 

652
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:38,520
And if you see your dog is 
biting, you have to know why 

653
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,000
they bit. 
And like with kids, a lot of it 

654
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,720
is the resource guarding. 
You let your toddler crawl 

655
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,280
around and then they go in the 
dog crate. 

656
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:49,240
Ha ha ha. 
Pictures, pictures so cute. 

657
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,360
The dog is the kids in the dog 
crate. 

658
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,880
My kid this morning, my 7 year 
old sitting right next to the 

659
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,560
dog bed. 
And I was like, I've told you 

660
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,160
500 times. 
And not just because of the dog 

661
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,520
because it's covered in fur and 
you're about to go to school, 

662
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,200
but also that is her bed. 
You have a million places to sit

663
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,120
down that sucks his bed. 
Get away from there and you see 

664
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,080
them on the on the dog bed, on 
the dog, on the dog, on the bed,

665
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,680
on the crate, in the crate with 
the dog putting their hands in 

666
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,320
the water bowl, putting their 
hands in the food bowl. 

667
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,240
And you're like of course the 
dog is biting. 

668
00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,680
He has like 3 resources in this 
house. 

669
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,000
His bed, his crate and his and 
is food bowl and that your child

670
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,880
is attacking all of them. 
And so if you know, oh, your dog

671
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,800
has one time growled, make sure 
your dog, your kid does not put 

672
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,560
that hand in the food bowl 
again. 

673
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,920
Because that next time it's 
going to be a level 1, and the 

674
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,320
next time after that it's going 
to be a level 2 until it gets to

675
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,040
who knows what. 
Yeah, there was, since you bring

676
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,960
up the, the food bowl and the 
resource guarding. 

677
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,320
I, I mean, I've, I have worked 
with dogs like that and it takes

678
00:38:58,320 --> 00:38:59,920
a lot of time and a lot of 
patience. 

679
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,960
And, and I think it does work 
better when you have older 

680
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,840
children, if you have children, 
because they need to be able to 

681
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,680
understand not just that they 
need to stay away, but why they 

682
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,880
need to stay away because you 
know, kid, you know, kids, 

683
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,520
right? 
They're, they're going to push 

684
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,400
boundaries and always, I mean, 
that's their job. 

685
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,120
That's literally. 
And they have, yeah, they're 

686
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:25,560
learning. 
And they're learning by making 

687
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,680
mistakes. 
Like you can tell your kid all 

688
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,000
day long not to do something, 
but they're going to do it 

689
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,760
anyway just because not that 
they don't believe you or trust 

690
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,360
you, but they have like this 
like almost innate need to learn

691
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,480
it on their own and be like, OK,
So what happens if I like poke 

692
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,160
myself with this pencil? 
Like, oh, it does her OK. 

693
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,120
She was right. 
Yeah, but I do. 

694
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:53,080
So my late husband, his 
daughter, he's always tell me 

695
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,360
the story that when she was 
young like toddler age he was 

696
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,760
not home from work yet his 
ex-wife fed. 

697
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,720
The dog did not pay any 
attention to what was going on. 

698
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,920
The toddler went while the dog 
was actively eating and stuck 

699
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,920
her hand in the food bowl and 
the dog literally like bit her 

700
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,040
face. 
She had to go to the hospital, 

701
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,960
get stitches, all the things. 
And they did decide to, they, 

702
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,080
they gave the dog to a couple 
that didn't have children. 

703
00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:33,440
And for me, like I understand 
that I, I do feel badly for a 

704
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,440
dog in that situation, like to, 
to be moved from the only home 

705
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:43,480
they've ever known, probably 
into a new home for really, 

706
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,200
honestly, in my opinion, no 
fault of their own because that 

707
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,280
child was not being managed 
properly. 

708
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:57,960
That child was not being taught 
in like that was a very 

709
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,280
teachable moment to No, we don't
There's a. 

710
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,280
Reason why? 
Like, where's the supervision? 

711
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,040
We just take it for granted that
these are like little fluffy 

712
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,320
little toys. 
They're not. 

713
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,080
Yet. 
An environment like how easy 

714
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,840
would it be to put up a baby 
gate to where a toddler can't 

715
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,160
even get to the area where a dog
is eating right? 

716
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,480
Like that is the simplest thing 
you could do if you are not. 

717
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,760
And look, I'm not a parent so 
I'm not here to say one way or 

718
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,000
the other what a parent should 
or should not do. 

719
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,480
But like environmental 
management is the easiest thing 

720
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,160
you can do. 
If you don't, if even if you 

721
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,320
don't want to be a parent and 
teach your child what what is 

722
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,000
right and what is wrong, put up 
a fucking baby. 

723
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,840
I'm sorry, put up a baby gate. 
I agree with you, I 100% would 

724
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,440
put up the effing baby gate. 
Like when after I had always 

725
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,160
managed Noah and Socks, after 
that resource guarding where 

726
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,440
they were resource she was 
resource guarding me. 

727
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,680
I just walked out to the yard. 
I have a big enough yard that 

728
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,720
Chris was with Noah and socks 
was like sniffing and then I 

729
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:05,760
walk out and she's like mom's 
here and then my son is like 

730
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,520
mom's here. 
And so they both came at me and 

731
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,160
I saw her kind of glance at Noah
competition and I immediately 

732
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,480
said this is getting tense. 
Come get him and Chris. 

733
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,960
My husband is neurodivergent and
a guy. 

734
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,120
So his reflex time, I swear, is 
so slow compared to like a new 

735
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,040
mom who's just like, ready to 
like, you know, Mama bear 

736
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,880
everything. 
And so he takes a second to 

737
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,560
literally think through what I'm
saying as a neurodivergent brain

738
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,600
holder. 
And by the time he reached me, 

739
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,120
it had already happened. 
And we were like, that was too 

740
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,160
close. 
Like that was too close. 

741
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,080
That could have been horrible. 
And even though we did 

742
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,840
everything right, I noticed I 
called him. 

743
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,880
He came as quickly as he knew 
how. 

744
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,280
It still happened. 
So from that moment on, we never

745
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,000
had them in the same room at the
same time. 

746
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,520
Titan could be in with if he 
wanted to. 

747
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,200
But if we were going to like, 
let's say Titan was laying down,

748
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,800
we wouldn't bother him, but we 
would say, OK, Socks, let's take

749
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,600
you over here, put you outside 
because she loved to sniff. 

750
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,520
So we'd put her outside while 
Noah was playing. 

751
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,240
And then eventually Titan, the 
second a noisy toy would get on,

752
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,680
like go on, he would just go to 
the door so he could go join 

753
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,640
Socks. 
Or we would immediately just 

754
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,960
bring everybody outside with 
treats because management was 

755
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,120
the only option at that point. 
It didn't matter how much we 

756
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,800
recognized her sign, how quickly
we moved. 

757
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,720
It was too close for comfort and
it could never happen again. 

758
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,320
And so I am all about the baby 
gate. 

759
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,760
We had baby gates all over the 
house because also we have a 

760
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,480
two-story house, so that helped.
So it's like, OK, so we're 

761
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,040
upstairs, the dogs can be 
downstairs and vice versa. 

762
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,520
And then there's that baby gate 
where I can let my toddler crawl

763
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,920
wherever he's wants to crawl and
I can maybe like put away 

764
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,920
laundry and I'm not worried 
about like watching everybody 

765
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,320
interact. 
So baby gates management and and

766
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,080
you don't have to have babies to
use baby gates like if you have.

767
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,640
I have baby gates, yeah. 
I have two dogs before we even 

768
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,920
became parents who did not get 
along. 

769
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,240
And so when we left the house, 
only one could be left out. 

770
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:17,240
And honestly, the one that was 
the troublemaker was the one 

771
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,880
that got created because I knew 
Kira wouldn't attack the other 

772
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:21,520
two. 
But I didn't. 

773
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,200
I didn't trust Socks to not 
attack anybody, even the the 

774
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,400
friend she'd had since six 
months old, because I'd seen her

775
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,120
be unpredictable and reactive. 
And I was like, just to be on 

776
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,400
the safe side for everybody, 
she's going to be created. 

777
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,280
And she was 12 years old and she
was still created and it was for

778
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,080
everybody's safety. 
And this was a dog that never 

779
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,720
passed a Level 3 bite one time. 
And still it was like one thing 

780
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,760
I always say it will escalate. 
It's not going to ever go. 

781
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,080
They a dog that bites one time 
is probably going to bite again.

782
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:58,400
Yeah. 
And instead of going back from 

783
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,680
A3 to A1, they're going to go 
from probably from A3 to A3 or 

784
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:03,520
A3 to A4. 
Like that's what they're going 

785
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:04,680
to do. 
It's going to escalate. 

786
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,520
It's not going to de escalate. 
And sometimes the frequency gets

787
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,960
bigger because they get more 
reactive. 

788
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:17,280
Every bite is a reinforcement 
that they have every right to be

789
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,360
upset and and scared. 
I talked to a dog trainer after 

790
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,320
the first fight that Sox and 
Kira had and she was like, dogs 

791
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,880
do not want to bite. 
They don't want to bite. 

792
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,440
They never want to bite because 
a bite is an invitation for a 

793
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,040
fight and they don't know if 
they can win that fight. 

794
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,880
So no dog goes in looking for a 
fight. 

795
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,640
They know they're better off 
peaceful. 

796
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:45,480
That's the a healthy dog with a 
healthy survival instinct is not

797
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,360
going to bite Willy nilly. 
They're going in for a bite 

798
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,280
because they feel threatened and
because they feel like if they 

799
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,200
don't engage, they're going to 
get mold themselves, right or 

800
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,680
they're going to get hurt 
themselves. 

801
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:02,080
And I think, I think it would 
it, I think it's important to 

802
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:07,160
acknowledge that yes, there are 
horrible people out there who, 

803
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:12,920
yes, do train dogs to fight. 
And yes, a lot of these dogs can

804
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,160
be rehabilitate. 
Not all of them, but a lot of 

805
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:20,280
them can be rehabilitated and do
wind up in loving homes. 

806
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,720
Often times those homes do not 
have children. 

807
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,880
But it, it is possible. 
Yes, there are dogs. 

808
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:35,040
Again, as Isabel just said, a 
healthy dog that has healthy 

809
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,160
boundaries that has never been 
through like that kind of 

810
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,160
trauma, they never want to go 
out and seek a fight. 

811
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,400
That being said, yes, there are 
dogs who have been raised and 

812
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,480
bred and really horrible things 
done to them. 

813
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,400
Yes, to guard dogs that like are
literally like trained to do 

814
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,240
that. 
Like, they have no discernment 

815
00:46:57,240 --> 00:47:00,280
at that point. 
But your pet dog, your pet dog 

816
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,760
will never want to start a 
fight. 

817
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,880
It's like at the dog park, if 
you see, you know, that dog 

818
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,480
that's bullying everybody, 
that's not a healthy dog. 

819
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,920
That's not a dog that is OK. 
And it's kind of like the bully 

820
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,000
in the playground where you say 
that poor child's probably 

821
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,480
bullied at home, and that's why 
they're coming over here 

822
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,640
asserting their power. 
And like, you know, once you 

823
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,120
understand psychology, you're 
just kind of like that poor 

824
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,840
bully is being bullied and this 
is what they're learning. 

825
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,960
And so that the same thing 
happened for a lot of dogs where

826
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,960
they, you know, maybe they're 
being kind of like alphaed at 

827
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,880
home, right? 
Like submissive. 

828
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,080
What is it? 
The submissive roles? 

829
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,920
What do they? 
Call them alpha roll, the alpha 

830
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,360
roll where they alpha roll them 
and like pin them down to like 

831
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,360
show them who's boss. 
Like if that's, that's why we 

832
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:56,960
are so against all of these like
force forward or forceful types 

833
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,200
of training, because what you do
is you're teaching that that's 

834
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,560
the norm. 
And then if they're going to go 

835
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:03,600
interact with another dog, 
that's what they're going to do 

836
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,120
to them. 
So it's very dangerous to like 

837
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,080
set those tones. 
But we have 10 minutes left and 

838
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,680
like we talked about management,
we talked about obviously dog 

839
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,480
training. 
Dog training is so important for

840
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,680
if you notice a dog bite. 
Yeah. 

841
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,680
And going to a dog trainer who 
is positive reinforcement based.

842
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,680
I know that there are people out
there who will tell you some 

843
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,720
dogs need force. 
I am completely in disagreement 

844
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:33,840
of that. 
And I think that the dogs that 

845
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,600
need the least amount of force 
are the ones that are biting. 

846
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,400
Like, please, let's not give 
them any more reason to be 

847
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,360
scared of the world in which 
they live, to distrust humans. 

848
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:45,320
I think you and I are always in 
agreement on that. 

849
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:51,520
Like we are not trying to beat 
bites out of the dog like that. 

850
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,680
Does that sound like ridiculous 
or does that sound ridiculous? 

851
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,040
Like I can't beat my child into 
being kind. 

852
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,280
That's insane. 
So that's the same thing. 

853
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,880
And then a good dog trainer who 
is positive reinforcement based,

854
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,720
the first thing they're going to
do is muscle train. 

855
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,760
That's the first. 
And do not be turned off if your

856
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:17,280
dog, if your trainer says your 
dog has a level 123, they need 

857
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,360
to be muzzle trained 
immediately. 

858
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,560
Like if they say that, trust 
them. 

859
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,920
That is good advice so long as 
it's done like properly where 

860
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,200
your dog accepts the muzzle. 
They have really comfortable 

861
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,440
muzzles for these dogs. 
They don't. 

862
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,240
You know, you, I was talking 
about like a like a ribbon for 

863
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:36,120
like a first aid situation. 
That's a temporary muzzle that 

864
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,080
you just put on for like 
addressing an injury. 

865
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,960
The muzzles that they have now 
that you can get them custom 

866
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,120
made, you can get them custom 
colors. 

867
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,400
I mean, there's like a bunch of 
you can buy them just as is for 

868
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,040
20 bucks. 
And it's like a, a cage muzzle 

869
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:51,560
that's very comfortable and 
breathable. 

870
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,960
They could still open their 
mouth, just nobody's going to 

871
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,560
get hurt. 
And it's really good too for the

872
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,280
dog that like thinks a walk is a
buffet. 

873
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:02,040
Those dogs can wear those too. 
And they can be so much better 

874
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,400
off. 
But like there are times, like 

875
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:08,040
in the case of the person that 
I, I heard about, I don't know 

876
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,480
this person, they were told 
there's nothing we can do. 

877
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,280
So the dog trainer, whom I don't
know, I don't know what their 

878
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:19,520
text techniques are, but the dog
trainer said my recommendation 

879
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,240
professionally. 
And I say professionally with a 

880
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,000
grain of salt because I don't 
know what this person's 

881
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,600
qualifications are, but they 
recommended behavioral 

882
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,360
euthanasia. 
Like the dog is a danger to 

883
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,120
himself and others and must be 
euthanized. 

884
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,880
And I do believe that there are 
cases when that is the key, like

885
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,320
when that is indicated. 
But I don't know that based on 

886
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,840
what I heard that it would be 
the case for this family. 

887
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,520
So I'm, since you're the one who
has worked with pets, with 

888
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,760
parents, how do you feel about, 
you know, having to make that 

889
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:01,840
recommendation? 
Yeah. 

890
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,600
I mean, I personally have never 
been in a situation where I felt

891
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:06,960
I had to make that 
recommendation. 

892
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:13,600
And I'm very grateful for that. 
Not only because I feel like it 

893
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,720
would be a really difficult 
thing to have to tell somebody, 

894
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:24,840
but also because I, I, I'm glad 
that I've never been in that 

895
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:30,560
position to be around a dog that
yeah, that I have felt that 

896
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:37,840
absolutely. 
But I, I can understand like I 

897
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,680
have such a soft heart that I 
feel like it would take a lot 

898
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:47,320
for me to get there. 
But at the same time, I do agree

899
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:53,960
that that if a dog's quality of 
life is suffering, if there's no

900
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,760
way that you're going to be able
to give them a good quality of 

901
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:01,400
life, that no one that there 
isn't anyone that can give them 

902
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:08,760
a good quality of life that it's
it's an option and like it. 

903
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:14,840
It would be better, I think to 
humanely let them go then for 

904
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:19,400
them to live in a cage their 
entire lives or for you to be 

905
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,560
scared in your home for however 
long that dog is alive or like 

906
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,640
that you. 
To potentially put another 

907
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,040
family at risk. 
Yeah. 

908
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:32,600
Because I mean, I think we both 
agree and we've talked about 

909
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,240
this where rehoming is a really 
great option like you have, like

910
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,800
Satchmo was rehomed back to me. 
I rescued him in Louisiana. 

911
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:42,560
He moved in with my sister in 
Spain. 

912
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:45,960
My sister recently had a child 
and he moved back in with me. 

913
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,000
But the reason I took him is 
because she couldn't safely give

914
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,040
him to anybody else. 
Yeah. 

915
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,160
Like, who was going to take him 
that would have as much 

916
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,760
experience with him that he 
already has, like an established

917
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,240
relationship with that wouldn't 
put him over a threshold? 

918
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,400
Because you're talking about a 
dog that's super attached to my 

919
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,640
sister, who's been with her for 
eight years and whose life was 

920
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:07,880
uprooted by a child screaming 
every day, right? 

921
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,440
Because, like, babies cry so 
much and it's so stressful for 

922
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,680
pets, even the most chill pets, 
like, oh, God. 

923
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,680
And so you're talking about what
then taking that dog who's in a 

924
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,320
different country now because my
sister moved all of them to the 

925
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,440
US for a while during her 
maternity leave. 

926
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,080
What do you just like hand them 
over to some stranger and be 

927
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,960
like, good luck? 
Because now that stranger might 

928
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,080
get bit and that dog might get 
put down. 

929
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,120
So when she started talking 
about like, I don't think he's 

930
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,840
compatible with my toddler, 
which I completely agreed. 

931
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:37,480
And I said before the toddler 
even got here. 

932
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:40,040
But then I met the toddler and I
was like, ah, ah, this is not 

933
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,520
going to work. 
I said the only she was like, I 

934
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,320
might have to rehome him. 
And I looked at her and I was 

935
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,200
like, to whom? 
Yeah, who are you going to give 

936
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:50,760
this potentially dangerous dog 
to? 

937
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:57,360
The only person is me. 
And if it doesn't work out with 

938
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:04,400
my my kids, you're going to need
to know that there may not be 

939
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,440
anywhere else for him to go. 
Like that was the conversation 

940
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,600
we had. 
Because it has to be the right 

941
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,520
family, maybe be with or without
kids, right? 

942
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,240
Because like even, I mean, 
obviously we don't want kids to 

943
00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:19,920
be mauled, but we also don't 
want like young professionals to

944
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,600
be mauled either. 
Like we don't want like retirees

945
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,840
to be mauled. 
Like all the people who don't 

946
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,360
have like growing kids, those 
demographics. 

947
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,120
We don't want them to be hurt 
either. 

948
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,240
We don't want neighbors to get 
hurt. 

949
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:33,840
We don't want lawsuits. 
You know, you could lose your 

950
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:39,640
house your whole life if your 
dog mauls somebody. 

951
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,080
Like you can get sued to the 
point where you have nothing 

952
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,160
left. 
I mean, it's a huge risk to have

953
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:49,160
a dog that bites like that. 
So like if it is not possible to

954
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:54,520
safely rehome the pet, like 
finding a a house without kids, 

955
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:58,520
like that's pretty simple to do.
I mean, like one day my kids 

956
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,560
will move out and I could 
potentially take like a 

957
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,440
dangerous dog, quote UN quote. 
And that's a spectrum, right? 

958
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,360
Like depending on how dangerous,
because I think that I consider 

959
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:11,400
Satchmo a little dangerous dog. 
Like I think he's a little bit 

960
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,000
of a dangerous dog, mostly 
because he's unpredictable. 

961
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,800
But if there is no other family 
and like with Socks, I called my

962
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:22,920
ex. 
I had I shared this in the past 

963
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,920
that Socks and Titan I got in a 
previous relationship and we 

964
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,400
shared custody of them and when.
He. 

965
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:36,040
When when Socks bit, when Socks 
bit Noah back, I think I was 

966
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,080
pregnant with Mila. 
I remember having the 

967
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,760
conversation calling my ex and 
being like, Socks just bit my 

968
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,440
child. 
Like we had been in touch. 

969
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,760
So he knew that I had had a 
child and we really just like 

970
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,560
updated each other. 
I updated him on the pets 

971
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,360
because they were with me now 
and so he knew I had a child. 

972
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,080
And he was like, I can't take 
her as much as I would love to 

973
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:02,080
because he adored her. 
I have a dog with what was that?

974
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,600
What's that condition where they
they they throw up their food? 

975
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,400
Oh that like. 
Megasophagus, megasophagus she 

976
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,480
has it was a female socks did 
not jive with female with other 

977
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,800
females. 
She had like very severe 

978
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,640
situation where she had to like 
wear some contraption. 

979
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,560
It was it was a big deal. 
So he was like, I would love to 

980
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,720
take her, but like, I'm not 
doing that to my current dog, 

981
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:31,520
right? 
Totally understandable. 

982
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,720
We both said, like, if anything 
changes, you know, let me know. 

983
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:38,360
And so like, my other choice was
management. 

984
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,880
And so we did it beautifully. 
It worked out great. 

985
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:45,120
But like, if she had done 
something like a level 4, Level 

986
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,320
3, I would have immediately had 
to make a decision because there

987
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,200
was nobody else who could take 
socks. 

988
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,320
Thankfully, I didn't have to. 
But like I think that the level 

989
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:01,600
of the bite matters. 
I think your resources matter. 

990
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,960
Like if you live in a big city 
and you have a ton of support 

991
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,040
and a ton of training and a ton 
of trainers and you have really 

992
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,600
great behavioral veterinary, 
like a veterinary behaviorist 

993
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,720
that you can work with. 
I mean, there are only like 100 

994
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:17,840
in the in the country, but a lot
of them do virtual now. 

995
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,080
But like back in that day there 
was that wasn't really an 

996
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,120
option. 
So I was really like between a 

997
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,120
rock and a hard place. 
So yeah, like I immediately 

998
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:27,680
considered behavioral 
euthanasia. 

999
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:35,960
She was 11/12 and she had a bike
history and I couldn't find any 

1000
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:41,480
place to re home her to. 
And I said let's try management 

1001
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,080
and if something happens, like 
we are going to need to make 

1002
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,480
some really hard choices. 
Thankfully for us, that did not 

1003
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,200
pan out. 
But I have a client who had to 

1004
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,360
behaviorally euthanize her dog 
because she had a traumatic 

1005
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:56,960
incident. 
And since that traumatic 

1006
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,320
incident, she got pinned under a
car and she just became 

1007
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:07,280
completely, completely reactive 
to everything. 

1008
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,280
She just got so scared. 
I don't know that they tried 

1009
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,320
like an SSRI for the dog. 
That would have been my 

1010
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,160
recommendation to start with, 
like, let's get her spider 

1011
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,000
flight down. 
Let's get her cortisol down. 

1012
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,080
Let's let's figure out a way to 
bring her down and and then 

1013
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:24,280
manage. 
But she had to say goodbye 

1014
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,280
because she was like, I, I don't
trust this dog anymore. 

1015
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,800
She's constantly biting me. 
And she was also older, right? 

1016
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,960
So she was like, I think that 
dog was like at 12 and she was 

1017
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,240
like, there could be something 
else happening. 

1018
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,000
And like now I'm scared of her. 
I'm scared of my own dog and 

1019
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,960
like I can't rehome her and so. 
That's such a hard place To me 

1020
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:44,880
it was. 
It was a really hard thing to 

1021
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,400
do, I think. 
But what it when it gets harder 

1022
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,280
is even when they're young, when
they're young, that's when it 

1023
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,360
gets really, really hard because
that's, you know, they have 

1024
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,920
this. 
Huge amount of life in front of 

1025
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:01,080
them that needs like this huge 
amount of time that you need 

1026
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,320
management and you don't know 
like how much management is it 

1027
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,800
going to get like worse as they 
get old like and of course it 

1028
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,680
probably not always but probably
is. 

1029
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,360
If you don't educate yourself, 
it will get worse. 

1030
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:20,720
If you continue to allow your 
dog to experience triggers, It 

1031
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:24,600
will get worse if you stack 
triggers like with socks. 

1032
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,800
It was like the stranger and the
male truck and the this all at 

1033
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:30,280
the same time. 
It was trigger stacking. 

1034
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:34,760
That's why she, I mean, and I 
had told the dog Walker she 

1035
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,480
needs to be on a super short 
leash. 

1036
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,120
I mean she was on a six foot 
leash, but like I would shorten 

1037
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,480
it to like 2 feet from me. 
She was always right there. 

1038
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,720
She did not get any any give. 
And he gave her too. 

1039
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,600
Much give and he didn't believe 
me right like a lot of people 

1040
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,040
don't take the warning seriously
enough and so a lot of people 

1041
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:56,800
think I'm like super 
overprotective and like you know

1042
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:02,920
doomsday but. 
I only I am that way because 

1043
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,520
I've seen it. 
I've seen the results of taking 

1044
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,880
risks and I don't like to take 
risks for other dogs. 

1045
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,840
And just this popped in my head,
so I want to mention it. 

1046
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,880
I know we're already over time, 
but this is another reason why 

1047
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,920
you have to do your research 
when you are choosing a dog 

1048
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,440
trainer. 
And in my opinion, and in 

1049
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,000
Isabel's opinion, you do want a 
positive reinforcement dog 

1050
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,880
trainer because there are dog 
trainers out there that may call

1051
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,480
themselves balanced or whatever.
And they will use methods like 

1052
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:41,560
flooding that will at some point
the dog will freeze and they 

1053
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,440
will take that and say, look, 
your dog's not reacting anymore.

1054
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,560
Well, they're not reacting right
in that moment because they're 

1055
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,960
frozen. 
But you are just what Isabel 

1056
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,840
said. 
You are triggering them so badly

1057
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,000
that the next time you have no 
idea what that dog's going to 

1058
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,800
do. 
That dog could have been in a 

1059
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:06,360
level 1 and by using a flooding 
technique, they could jump to a 

1060
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:10,760
level 5 or 6 like like that 
without going through the steps 

1061
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,120
because you have done so much 
damage to them. 

1062
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,200
And so you just have to. 
Put somebody in front of their 

1063
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:20,960
like, their trauma and like, 
yeah, like. 

1064
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,480
Like if you're letting them 
know, like, yeah. 

1065
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:25,800
You know what, you're a SA 
survivor. 

1066
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,080
I'm going to put you in front of
your attacker without, you know 

1067
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,760
what I mean? 
And like expecting that to go 

1068
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:33,520
well, like that's what, that's 
the equivalent of what we're 

1069
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,560
doing to these dogs. 
You're afraid of small spaces, 

1070
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,240
so you get buried alive, 
correct? 

1071
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:39,840
You know what I mean? 
Like that's what that is. 

1072
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:40,640
Let's. 
Do that. 

1073
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:41,960
Yeah. 
Like, it's crazy. 

1074
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:46,560
So a lot of us don't understand 
and like I'll say this, like 

1075
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:52,120
being in the dog in working with
dogs professionally and prepared

1076
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,800
me for having children and 
having children has reinforced 

1077
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:00,440
so much of what I learned about 
dogs because there's so many 

1078
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,200
similarities cognitively. 
Like it's so similar. 

1079
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,000
Like our brains work so 
similarly. 

1080
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,320
So you have to people are like, 
but we're not talking about 

1081
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,640
training children or humans. 
We're talking about training 

1082
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:12,840
dogs. 
But like if you put yourself or 

1083
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,760
your child in the position that 
your dog trainer is recommending

1084
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:20,320
and you feel uncomfortable, I 
would say red flag, red flag. 

1085
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,960
If you wouldn't shock your kid 
into submission, don't do it to 

1086
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,760
your dog. 
If you wouldn't, you know, hit 

1087
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:33,480
your husband on the face with a 
newspaper because he didn't, you

1088
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,000
know, put the toilet seat down, 
don't hit your dog because he 

1089
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:40,160
peed in the house. 
These are all very like common 

1090
01:02:40,160 --> 01:02:42,600
things like if you wouldn't 
spray your child in the face 

1091
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,800
with vinegar when they, you 
know, made it like spilled 

1092
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,240
something, then don't do that to
your child or to your dog 

1093
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:52,880
because he like counter served. 
Those are the techniques we use.

1094
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:56,600
We other people use as like 
totally normal dog behavior 

1095
01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,480
stuff of when we wouldn't do it 
to human and are the differences

1096
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,480
between humans and and dogs and 
cats when it comes to trauma are

1097
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:08,800
really really very there's very 
little difference. 

1098
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,960
Dogs do a little bit better 
about recovering, but if they're

1099
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:16,920
being exposed to the same trauma
and trigger all the time, being 

1100
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,800
hit, being shocked, you know, 
the dog in the back is like 

1101
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:22,400
threatening them through the 
fence. 

1102
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,040
Like if we keep just like 
exposing them to the same 

1103
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:26,920
trigger over and over again, 
they're not going to forget it 

1104
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:28,200
anymore. 
Like, it's not going to be like 

1105
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,000
dogs live in the moment. 
No, that dog lives in fear of 

1106
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,120
going outside. 
That dog lives in fear of being 

1107
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:35,600
hit. 
That dog associates peeing with 

1108
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:37,720
being hit. 
So now the dog doesn't want to 

1109
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:39,800
pee ever and is making 
themselves sick, right? 

1110
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,760
Like there's so much that we do 
to dogs that we would go to jail

1111
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,440
for for doing to our kids or be 
like, you know, CPS would show 

1112
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:49,320
up knocking on our doors. 
So if a dog trainer makes 

1113
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:53,200
recommendations, even as 
desperate as you are, because if

1114
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,400
you have a dog that you are, you
know, deciding whether or not 

1115
01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:01,800
they can live in this world, you
might be desperate enough to try

1116
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,560
anything. 
But I would say, and I know that

1117
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,800
there's probably research to 
back me up. 

1118
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:11,040
I can't cite any of it at this 
moment, but I would say that if 

1119
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,520
you were to try the aggressive 
methods, you probably end up 

1120
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:18,080
euthanizing. 
Like you will probably just go 

1121
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,200
ahead and euthanize. 
Just if you are at a point where

1122
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,880
it's either I use a dog trainer 
that shocks my dog into 

1123
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,120
submission, or I humanely 
euthanize, please humanely 

1124
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:31,000
euthanize that dog. 
Because what you're going to do 

1125
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:35,000
is put the community in more 
danger by trying those methods 

1126
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:41,440
and traumatize yourself that, 
that all you're doing is signing

1127
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,520
up for paid trauma. 
You're going to pay this dog 

1128
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:49,440
trainer to train you how to 
suffer and how to make your pet 

1129
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,240
suffer. 
And the end result is going to 

1130
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,120
be the same or worse. 
It's going to become a more 

1131
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:59,960
desperate situation. 
So, and, and, and a really 

1132
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:05,080
trusted dog trainer who is 
genuinely here for the, for the 

1133
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:08,880
dog, the individual and the 
community is going to be able to

1134
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:13,320
look at that dog and look at you
and say, I've exhausted all of 

1135
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,600
the positive reinforcement, 
we've exhausted the veterinary 

1136
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:18,960
care, we've exhausted the 
medication. 

1137
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:23,680
We've, we've tried everything 
and there is nothing left to be 

1138
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,000
done. 
This dog is not compatible with 

1139
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:31,560
our world. 
And as hard as it is, you and 

1140
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:34,880
your family and the community at
large will be safer without this

1141
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:39,200
dog in it. 
And as hard as it is for a dog 

1142
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:43,200
trainer to tell you that a 
reputable, truly dedicated, 

1143
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,240
educated dog trainer will have 
that conversation with you if 

1144
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:53,360
they see that it is time. 
And if they genuinely believe 

1145
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,080
that it's just like your 
family's not a good fit, They 

1146
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:00,440
will also recommend like 
rehoming like that's, that's 

1147
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:05,880
that's what it is. 
But I don't feel like we should 

1148
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,600
get to that point. 
Like we shouldn't get to the 

1149
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:12,840
point where we're deciding on 
behavioral euthanasia. 

1150
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,960
Instead, I would like it to be, 
let's start really paying 

1151
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:21,720
attention to those growls to 
those level ones. 

1152
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:25,040
So we never get to those 
conversations. 

1153
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,880
That's really, if there's 
anything that I've obviously a 

1154
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:29,680
lot of people are beyond that 
point now. 

1155
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,440
But if anybody's listening who 
has like a puppy or like a 

1156
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,920
younger dog or like, you know, 
you stumble upon this video 

1157
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:39,880
because your dog snapped for the
first time and you're like a 

1158
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,560
really responsible pet parent 
and you're like, Oh my God, what

1159
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,440
does it mean when my dog snaps? 
Hopefully the Google gods show 

1160
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,600
you this and you say, oh, shoot,
that was OK. 

1161
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,960
That was a level 1. 
So now I need to work on this 

1162
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:52,840
right now. 
I need to figure out what caused

1163
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,080
it, what happened, what in the 
mind of the dog? 

1164
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:57,320
What dog trainer can I find in 
my area? 

1165
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:01,840
Michael Chicoshio is a 
specialist in aggression. 

1166
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,720
I really like him. 
He started off as a balance 

1167
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,560
trainer from my understanding 
only uses positive 

1168
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:13,080
reinforcement. 
He is not super divisive so he 

1169
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,480
will like work with. 
He has had balance trainers at 

1170
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:19,960
his conferences and stuff. 
So I think he's gotten a bad rap

1171
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,280
that I may be speaking 
completely out of ignorance, but

1172
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,520
from my understanding, there was
like some some controversy with 

1173
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,560
Michael Chicoshio because he 
invited balance trainers to a 

1174
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,400
conversation and like the 
positive only group was like, 

1175
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,520
no, we shouldn't give them a 
platform. 

1176
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,600
But Michael Chicoshio has always
been the person that I refer to 

1177
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,640
when there is like a level of 
aggression that's that severe. 

1178
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,760
Because he started as a balance 
trainer, he's seen that 

1179
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,480
aggressive dogs can be 
rehabilitated with positive 

1180
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:52,240
reinforcement training. 
And he uses positive 

1181
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,400
reinforcement methods. 
He trains a lot of dog trainers 

1182
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,360
to specialize in aggression. 
And it takes a very special dog 

1183
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:03,560
trainer to work with these dogs 
that are levels 456. 

1184
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,880
They're, I mean, I don't know 
how many dog level bite, bite 6 

1185
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:11,320
level 6 bite dogs. 
Really engaged anymore? 

1186
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:12,720
Like, I don't know that they 
exist. 

1187
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,280
I think a level 6 is usually 
behavioral euthanasia 

1188
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:20,600
immediately, but I think that 
Michael Shikoshio is a great 

1189
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:24,600
resource if you find yourself in
this situation and if, you know,

1190
01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:26,920
pay attention to who's 
commenting. 

1191
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,760
Also, if you go on social media 
and you see Michael Shikoshio, 

1192
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:32,800
pay attention to who's 
commenting and follow those 

1193
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,439
trainers too, because a lot of 
them are learning from him. 

1194
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:38,640
They also have, you know, 
experience themselves. 

1195
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,399
It's not just Michael. 
He's trained 1,000,000 people at

1196
01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:44,439
this point. 
So there are there's a big group

1197
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,439
of dog trainers out there that 
is qualified. 

1198
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,640
Are you going to go to a a dog 
trainer that specializes in 

1199
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:52,080
puppies for aggression? 
No. 

1200
01:08:52,319 --> 01:08:54,240
Are you going to go to Melena de
Martini? 

1201
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,600
As much as I adore her, she's a 
specialist in separation 

1202
01:08:57,600 --> 01:08:59,720
society. 
Do not go to her for aggression.

1203
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,040
She wouldn't take you anyway 
like her and her team would 

1204
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:06,080
probably refer you elsewhere. 
But just find a dog, a dog 

1205
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:09,279
trainer that's that's positive 
reinforcement based, but also 

1206
01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:11,640
specializes in aggression. 
Because if you're really 

1207
01:09:12,359 --> 01:09:17,479
deciding between life and death,
you need to bring out like the 

1208
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,040
big guns, which is not just like
any dog trainer. 

1209
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:22,520
Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

1210
01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:26,439
I agree. 
And we are so over time, but 

1211
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,920
that's OK. 
I think we're going to kind of 

1212
01:09:29,359 --> 01:09:34,640
continue this conversation next 
week with a Texas A&M Veterinary

1213
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:40,359
Medical and Biomedical Sciences 
article study showing that more 

1214
01:09:40,359 --> 01:09:45,040
than 99% of US dogs have 
behavior problems, and we're 

1215
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:46,680
going to talk about that next 
week. 

1216
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:50,520
And if you have a dog and your 
dog has a behavior problem, 

1217
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,040
we'll probably be talking about 
it. 

1218
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:54,200
So have you read the article 
yet? 

1219
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:56,920
Does it talk about what the 
behavior problems are like the 

1220
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:01,720
top ones or? 
Yeah, it's, well, it's the top 

1221
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:05,640
categories are aggression, 
separation and attachment 

1222
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:08,760
behaviors and then fear and 
anxiety behaviors. 

1223
01:10:11,920 --> 01:10:15,040
And they, they gathered all of 
this information from the dog 

1224
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,280
Aging project. 
So if anybody is familiar with 

1225
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,160
like Rodney Habib and Dr. Karen 
Becker, they pull a lot of 

1226
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:22,600
information from the dog Aging 
project. 

1227
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:27,440
So I think that's a really, they
have a pretty, a pretty good 

1228
01:10:27,440 --> 01:10:31,160
database of, of information on 
dogs. 

1229
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,440
And I think this is so this is 
going to be something cool to. 

1230
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:37,120
Well researched piece. 
It's absolutely. 

1231
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:38,840
Well, thank you guys for joining
us. 

1232
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:42,880
If you have any follow up 
questions and or comments, 

1233
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:47,960
concerns, referrals, like you've
had a really great success with 

1234
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:52,560
a dog trainer that helped you 
with aggression cases, please 

1235
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,520
tag them. 
Let's keep the comments kind. 

1236
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,880
You don't have to agree with us,
but you also don't have to argue

1237
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,800
with us. 
So just be kind. 

1238
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:06,480
I know dog training that's very,
people get very sensitive, 

1239
01:11:06,480 --> 01:11:10,560
people get very reactive. 
So let's keep the reactivity to 

1240
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,280
a minimum. 
And if you're just mean, we're 

1241
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,120
going to delete what you say. 
So. 

1242
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:15,400
All right. 
Thank. 

1243
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:17,240
You all right? 
Yeah. 

1244
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:18,840
Thank you. 
We'll see you next week. 

1245
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:19,480
Bye.