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Welcome back, pet parent. 
So excited for today's episode. 

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We're doing something a little 
different. 

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The format is a little different
today, but I think it's going to

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be super, super fun. 
I actually have two guests for 

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you today. 
We have BC Henschen, who has 

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been around in the pet food 
industry forever at this point, 

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and Doctor Kathy Alanovi, who is
with Next Generation Pet Food 

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Manufacturers Association. 
Did I get that right? 

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We're going to talk about pet 
food safety today. 

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This is something I really 
haven't covered that much on the

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podcast. 
I mean, if I think about it, 

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like I've talked to Billy about 
it, that's pretty much the only 

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person I talked to about it and 
on the podcast. 

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And I'm just really interested 
to get like your back and forth 

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on this because I mean, as a 
consumer, you know, I have my 

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own opinions. 
I want to hear what you 2 as 

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professionals on kind of 
opposing sides of the spectrum 

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have to say about this. 
So I'm going to welcome BC and 

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Doctor Kathy. 
It's like really, 'cause I 

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thought BC and I were on the 
same side. 

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So all right, BC, where are you 
coming from? 

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Wow, where are you? 
On similar roads I have really 

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Jessica just touched on it. 
I have found myself being a 

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consumer more because I was 
removed from the retail pet food

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world for a little bit, so I 
started having a lot of 

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concerns. 
OK, so interesting. 

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So what have you found? 
Well, and let's start. 

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Certainly a lot of this was H15,
the latest bird flu. 

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That was certainly an issue that
started exposing a lot of 

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things. 
But let me back up a little bit 

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and you know, I I'm doing what I
would say is the honeymoon 

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period's over for RAW. 
I don't understand why we don't 

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have peer reviewed studies on 
RAW. 

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I don't understand why we don't 
have more white paper on raw and

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I don't understand why we are 
still getting the trade secret 

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BS line. 
Because and I'll tell you, I had

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a conversation not just two 
weeks ago with the manufacturer 

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and he said I can't tell you 
where we're manufactured. 

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I can't tell you who formulates 
us. 

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That is all trade secrets. 
We don't want that out in the 

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universe. 
And I said, Brina or whoever 

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knows exactly where you're 
manufactured and if they wanted 

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that facility, they would have 
that facility. 

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But we're still hearing that. 
We're still hearing that from 

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raw manufacturer. 
Are you? 

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You're muted. 
I've lost her. 

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Yeah, you muted her. 
I didn't marry I I we had bark 

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Fest and I was trying to make 
the less bark noise because the 

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four pounder sounds like 200 
lbs. 

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So that was a fresh food 
manufacturer BC yes, I'm sorry, 

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that's a load of yeah, I'm. 
Gonna say still out there. 

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For anybody listening and not 
watching, I can't tell you how 

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much I love Doctor Kathy's 
faces. 

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Like I just I feel like this is 
can't play. 

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Poker. 
I'm looking in the mirror by my.

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Lack of poker face. 
It is like in my tiny little 

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inner circle, like our running 
joke is that Jessica cannot 

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control her face. 
I walk around like I, I will 

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walk around Super Zoo and my 
best friend, I'll walk around 

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with her and she'll turn around 
to me and be like, I can feel 

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your face behind me. 
You need to chill. 

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Beautiful. 
I love it. 

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So BC that's unacceptable and 
I'm in totally meeting with you.

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I don't support that. 
It shouldn't be a secret. 

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Where's consumer transparency? 
Our fresh pet, fresh raw, real 

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pet food manufacturers need to 
not be hiding because consumers 

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have questions and you're not 
going to sell your product if 

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you're a secret. 
People want to know. 

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Well, and I could tell you that 
one of those manufacturers, I 

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mean, I don't want to get into 
names, but there's a 

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manufacturer that's a friend of,
I mean of the real food movement

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that is not 100% transparent. 
And they still are able to kind 

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of out that line where they give
a little bit, but they they 

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aren't giving the whole story. 
But let's back up. 

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So I like to do because I know I
just hit you with a lot of 

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things out of the gate and let's
take it step by step. 

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I also am active in the cannabis
research involving dogs and I 

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can give you Cornell has a study
on it that is a peer reviewed 

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study as it relates to pain in 
canines and the use of cannaboid

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products butchering some of that
those words, but that's what I 

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do. 
There's also a University of 

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Colorado has a lot of research 
out there that is again peer 

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reviewed white papers. 
So the head manufacturers could 

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easily hang their hat and say 
this is proprietary information,

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we don't need to give it out. 
There's no federal regulation 

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forcing us to give it out. 
So why are we hearing that from 

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real food pet food 
manufacturers? 

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Why are we not seeing why are 
there not peer reviewed studies?

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Why are there not more 
digestibility tests that are 

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public? 
And that's, that's one of the 

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key things that we aren't seeing
is digestibility information 

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released. 
You got me. 

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What do I know? 
What I know is I don't have 

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right here my hot little hands, 
my answer. 

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But I'm writing it down because 
one of the things that we're 

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doing at the trade association, 
so next generation pet food 

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manufacturers, next Gen. we 
represent fresh pet food 

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manufacturers. 
So it's raw and gently cooked 

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and it's some freeze dried and 
stuff. 

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We have been challenged with 
that question. 

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We have a lot of manufacturers 
who have heard that from their 

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consumers. 
So I got to write this down 

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because I have Old Lady Brain. 
You want the peer reviewed 

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articles there. 
There are peer reviewed 

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articles. 
I haven't read them all. 

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I haven't read lots of them. 
I'm guilty. 

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You know what I've done? 
I said to a researcher that 

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we're working with. 
I said, would you put it all 

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together for me, please? 
And I'm at the putting it to 

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waiting for her to put it 
together and present it because 

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there are over 200 articles that
talk about thank you 

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digestibility. 
But what I don't know is 

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digestibility. 
There, I wrote it down. 

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There are studies that show 
health benefits of fresh foods 

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specifically in pets. 
Digestibility is a really good 

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question. 
And so I'd have to say BC I have

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to get back to you and I got to 
actually look at the literature.

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I commissioned somebody because 
my plate is full, but you're not

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the which. 
That was really lame, wasn't it?

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That was my lame cop out. 
And it's like, man, he caught me

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right at the beginning with a 
cop out response. 

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There are studies and we are 
looking at putting it together 

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because a lot of our 
manufacturers are challenged by 

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consumers and veterinarians 
because there's that perception 

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by veterinarians. 
If there are no studies, it's 

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not true. 
It's not that there are no 

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studies, it's that they haven't 
been put together in a giant 

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doorstop. 
Like it's literally the the book

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from Science Diet that we get in
vet school is literally four or 

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five inches thick. 
It's like don't and people just 

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look at that and they go 
credibility. 

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Well, I could put any bunch of 
blank page. 

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We don't need to put blank pages
because there are studies hasn't

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been organized and so I'm 
working on that. 

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Can we have this meeting later? 
Digestibility is an interesting 

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topic because and I think the 
majority of pet parents don't 

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even know to ask that question. 
And I think pet food 

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manufacturers kind of take 
advantage of the fact that pet 

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parents don't even know to ask 
that question. 

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People like me who are out here,
and I know Doctor Kathy, you do 

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this too, like working 
one-on-one with pet parents. 

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Like we see this. 
We can see when we're working 

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with a dog specifically, usually
dogs. 

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Then we can and we're yes. 
Yeah, we're looking and we're 

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going, oh, we have a digestion, 
we have a digestibility issue 

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here going on. 
But that and, and of course 

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that's anecdotal, right? 
Like, but that's where science 

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starts. 
It's one evidence what'll be 

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interesting to see because how 
do we define digestibility? 

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Because if you take a giant bowl
of acid and drop in a bunch of 

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oatmeal, boom, that thing 
digests right off. 

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What is that how it really 
should work in this in the in 

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the live animal, there are all 
these hydrolyzed foods. 

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They're pre digested so the 
animal doesn't have to digest. 

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Shouldn't their intestines 
really be doing its natural 

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function of digesting? 
So great question BC it's on my 

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list of things to do now. 
Also, just want to throw in 

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before we move on, I, I do know,
I, I did hear of just a person, 

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just a person who is very 
scientifically motivated and did

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her own test in a controlled 
environment where she like 

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mimicked with the pH of a dog's 
stomach should be and did 

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kibble, raw food, cooked food 
and an insect protein. 

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And the insect protein was 
horrific. 

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So I just want to throw that out
there. 

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Really, I just want to throw 
that out there. 

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That's fascinating. 
Yeah. 

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No, that's, that's good. 
Yeah, that's. 

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Pretty. 
There's a lot of, well, I won't 

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say a lot, but a couple of those
insect protein companies. 

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Actually I have some pretty good
digestibility studies with once 

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again, you get into can we 
compare one study to the next 

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study to the next study because 
they're all using different 

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criteria and they're looking at 
different micros and macros. 

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And certainly over my head there
are a couple good pet food 

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manufacturers that post that 
information immediately and make

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it available to the pet parents.
But digestibility is just one. 

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All right, pet parents, you 
already know that I talk all the

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time about needing to stop as 
much as we possibly can, feeding

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our fur babies garbage, for lack
of a better word. 

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That's what we talk about here a
lot. 

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And again, doing the best we 
can. 

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That is the message above any 
and everything else. 

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The more we learn, the more we 
know we need to make some 

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changes. 
And this episode is powered by 

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Legacy Biome. 
This is no BS. 

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And This is why I think you need
Legacy Biome. 

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So legacy Biome offers premium. 
When I say premium, I mean 

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These are products for your dog 
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a healthy gut microbiome. 
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We talk about this all the time.

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It's not optional. 
It drives digestion, immune 

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strength, allergy resistance, 
mood, and even chronic disease 

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risk. 
So if your pet's gut is out of 

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whack, their whole system is out
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If you've learned nothing from 
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itchy skin, hair loss, 
allergies, rebounding from 

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antibiotics, that's a thing too.
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bulletproof gut and immune 
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So don't worry, vets handle 
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FMT is administered rectally, 
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offices, but we don't always 
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So what's the next best thing? 
FMT capsules that are enteric 

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with your dog, head to 
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That is legacy biome.com, L e.g.
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for your pet. 
And by the way, let me know how 

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it goes. 
You know me. 

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00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:54,240
You can always reach out to me 
on Instagram. 

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00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,560
I'm here to talk to you all the 
time. 

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00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:57,880
I want to know. 
Let me know about it. 

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00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,080
To try Legacy Biome for your 
dog, visit legacybiome.com and 

229
00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:10,200
use code TPPR 10. 
That's TPPR 10 for 10% off. 

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00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:17,800
You know, if we go back to food 
safety and you can help me with 

231
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,240
this there, there's a couple 
things that again have become 

232
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:28,800
really evident to me #1 and this
goes back to AFCO world. 

233
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:35,200
But if I pay and actually do a 
feeding trial with dogs and I am

234
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:40,640
a raw pet food manufacturer and 
Jessica comes along and 

235
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:47,040
basically makes the same food, 
she doesn't have to do a feeding

236
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,600
trial but can say that she meets
the Yep guidelines. 

237
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,560
So a lot of us know that you. 
Did the research, yes. 

238
00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:02,440
Except can we say that her 
formula and my formula are close

239
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,480
enough? 
Shouldn't that be changed in 

240
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,080
AFCO? 
Even though who knows if AFCO is

241
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,880
going to exist in a month or a 
year. 

242
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,960
So let's talk about people food 
though. 

243
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:18,920
Let's talk people. 
Food. 

244
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,120
You and I can go buy four 
different kinds of cereal off 

245
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,960
the shelf. 
There's zero safety with those. 

246
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,680
I want to say 0 safety. 
Safety studies. 

247
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,480
So, so you're talking about 
complete and balanced and 

248
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,880
whatever, but all right, let's 
back up to find safety because 

249
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,560
in my mind, I was expecting you 
to bring up bird flu and 

250
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,960
salmonella. 
And it's interesting you're 

251
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,760
bringing up digestibility and 
balance, so. 

252
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,000
Let's fight safety and those 
it's still on the paper we. 

253
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,760
Haven't paid? 
It all the way through the. 

254
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:56,520
Paper. 
All right. 

255
00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,160
In there, we're getting there. 
OK, I don't know how AFCO came 

256
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,480
up with all of that. 
I have my personal, I should. 

257
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,000
You're recording this. 
I shouldn't say this. 

258
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,000
All right, let's say this. 
You guys have human children. 

259
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,160
You have the two legged kind, 
right? 

260
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,600
I got one of them too. 
I haven't killed it yet and it's

261
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,160
21 years old. 
Never once in one day of my 

262
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,720
daughter's life did I ever 100% 
complete and balance her diet. 

263
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,160
Ever. 
OK, sorry I had to throw that 

264
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,960
in. 
She ain't dead. 

265
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:37,120
So that is not me saying screw 
it, throw it all out. 

266
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,680
Balance is irrelevant. 
It's not important. 

267
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:46,480
That's me saying let's have 
practical reality. 

268
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,440
Practical reality is there are 
vitamins, minerals, macro 

269
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,000
nutrients, macro nutrients, you 
know, protein, fat, 

270
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,080
carbohydrates that everybody's 
body needs. 

271
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,920
Now, Speaking of everybody's 
body, there's three of us here. 

272
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,839
I guarantee you the three of us 
eat differently. 

273
00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,720
I have eaten with both of you. 
I know what you eat and we eat 

274
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,119
differently and what my body 
needs is different than what 

275
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:19,160
each of your body needs. 
So there is no such thing as 

276
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,520
one-size-fits-all. 
If there were, we would all buy 

277
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,960
Wheaties and only Wheaties and 
we would all have all of our 

278
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,840
nutritional needs. 
There's not. 

279
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,320
I need different food than each 
of you does and my dogs are the 

280
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,120
same. 
I have a herd and everybody has 

281
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,920
different nutrient needs. 
So we we start with the same 

282
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,320
basic food and then we top dress
on top based on what each one 

283
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,000
needs. 
AFCO can't do that, AFCO said. 

284
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:55,720
Here's the basis. 
It's that silly food pyramid 

285
00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,360
that we humans have. 
But that's basically what AFCO 

286
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:02,760
is. 
Like it or not, that's what AFCO

287
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,600
has done is tried to say here's 
the basics and we could argue 

288
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,120
about whether or not things 
change in a weird way. 

289
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,840
I get that. 
But that's the foundation. 

290
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,960
That's the basics. 
So sure, BC if you do the 

291
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,840
studies that show these three 
ingredients are exactly what 6 

292
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:30,880
dogs needs to make six blood 
values not change over a six 

293
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:35,600
month period, I see no reason 
why Jessica can't take the exact

294
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:41,600
same three ingredients in the 
exact same ratio and say your 

295
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,600
study's good. 
Now if she goes and adds four 

296
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:51,120
more things, she need to do her 
own study of 6 bugs over six 

297
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,680
months, looking at six numbers, 
it's minimal. 

298
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,120
It is not detailed. 
If you look at my body under a 

299
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:03,000
microscope, I need different 
things than you guys do. 

300
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,560
So. 
Now, just a little side note 

301
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,720
because we all know the late and
the great, I mean icon industry 

302
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:17,960
Jacqueline, When I was at trade 
shows or meetings with her, I 

303
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,840
had my answers because at that 
time being a founder of Answers,

304
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,800
that was her company. 
I had my Answers Goat milk and I

305
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,800
walked around with my quart of 
Answers Goat Milk containing my 

306
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,560
Diet Coke bottle because, 
because. 

307
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,560
She because Jacqueline. 
Would come after. 

308
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:40,520
Me. 
Yeah. 

309
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,960
She's flipping over her grave 
right now to hear that you 

310
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,000
admitted to that. 
I. 

311
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,840
See, well, I, I fessed up at 
some point, but yeah, I. 

312
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:50,640
That's funny. 
I. 

313
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,120
Got the bad end of her several 
times on my Diet Coke and I, I 

314
00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:00,160
will say till this day, I feed 
my dogs far better than I feed 

315
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,080
myself. 
I mean, there's absolutely no 

316
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,760
doubt about that. 
But along that line. 

317
00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:19,200
When we do talk, so I think that
is being used more broadly think

318
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:25,200
companies are jumping onto 
saying, hey, we, we basically 

319
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,240
did a feeding trial because 
we're basically the same. 

320
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,440
And once again, there's really 
no enforcement over that. 

321
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,440
We all know AFCO doesn't enforce
anything like in the state of. 

322
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,800
Because that's not their role. 
We need to make sure that our 

323
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,240
listeners understand AFCO sets 
guidelines. 

324
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,720
They are not the regulators. 
The regulators are those who go 

325
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,800
to AFCO. 
It's each state. 

326
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,920
You're right. 
You're right BC it's a beautiful

327
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,560
question. 
At the. 

328
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,080
All I see is money. 
In order to have that, it's how 

329
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,480
much more cost it's going to 
cost to the pet food 

330
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,480
manufacturers who want to 
register in each state. 

331
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:12,240
If the state is going to 
evaluate their food to that 

332
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,600
level, somebody needs to be 
responsible for it. 

333
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,200
You're right. 
But who's who? 

334
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,640
The state or the manufacturer or
the feds, I. 

335
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,000
Would go back to see that's what
I'm talking about. 

336
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,480
The honeymoon, That's the other 
thing that I've heard so many 

337
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,040
times. 
Hey, we don't have money for 

338
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,000
that. 
We're small manufacturers, we're

339
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,880
groundbreaking. 
We are doing things with pet 

340
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,480
food that have never been done. 
But again, that was aggregate 10

341
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,440
years ago. 
I mean, when did my first 

342
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,840
commercially available raw, I 
started selling 18 years ago, 

343
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,760
almost 20 years ago. 
And then the second was Bravo, I

344
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,360
think again 20 years ago. 
Those are the people that I 

345
00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:01,120
absolutely agree with and 
answers for that matter, that 

346
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,880
hey, we're breaking ground. 
We don't have a lot of money 

347
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,320
here. 
People don't know what we're 

348
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,800
doing, but here we are with, you
know, a growing. 

349
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,760
The real food movement has grown
leaps and bounds in the. 

350
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:21,080
Last still hearing that, that's 
absolutely, that's fascinating 

351
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,320
because my members are actually 
doing the studies. 

352
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,160
Well, and you're looking. 
At putting it together. 

353
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,120
Are the cream. 
That's not there. 

354
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,520
I mean, let's let's be real, 
your members are the top echelon

355
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,120
that understand that they need 
to be in an association with you

356
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,040
where a lot. 
Of the rest are like you should 

357
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,000
hear what I've been told. 
Oh my goodness, we're we're 

358
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:52,200
we're we're rabble rousers was 
what 1 manufacturer said when 

359
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,320
they stopped being a member. 
Well, we think you're bucking 

360
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,200
the system. 
I was like, hello, what do you 

361
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,280
think we're here for? 
Isn't that the point? 

362
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,080
Right. 
I want to go join my trade 

363
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,640
association. 
We want to go with status quo. 

364
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,960
We want to change nothing but 
wait. 

365
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,200
We make raw pet food. 
Anyway. 

366
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,600
That's a very fascinating 
perspective BC because I think 

367
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,560
I'm over here in La La land 
because I don't talk to those 

368
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,240
people. 
That's very fascinating. 

369
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,160
And those people? 
I'm writing that down also. 

370
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,720
I feel like those are the more 
mass brands. 

371
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,280
I mean, when you're talking 
about kind of the big in the 

372
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,480
real food movement, those, 
again, my opinion on Jessica's 

373
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,040
podcast, my personal opinion, 
you know, those largest real 

374
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,680
food manufacturers are some of 
the worst out there. 

375
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,800
But those are the ones that have
the money to do the research and

376
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,600
are not doing it, or they're 
doing it and they're not 

377
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,720
releasing it because they don't 
feel like they have to. 

378
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,800
And. 
They're also the ones that are 

379
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,760
not interested in helping 
anybody else. 

380
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:14,640
Your members are going to be 
open, which is a nice transition

381
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,360
into that food safety because 
you can help educate me here 

382
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,040
there. 
There's a great store that I 

383
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:26,480
love who has stopped selling raw
milk completely for pets because

384
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,720
he considers it too much of A 
risk because of the lack of 

385
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,640
cooperation between 
manufacturers when it comes to 

386
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:42,720
when a new risk is discovered 
that you know, if a new risk and

387
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,160
they're all talking about one 
that's in Kenya right now that 

388
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,960
was found in raw milk. 
But when a new risk is 

389
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:56,320
discovered in the human milk 
chain, USDAFDA, all those have 

390
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,480
requirements for reporting and 
then they report to the others 

391
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,520
and so on and so forth. 
I don't know that the same thing

392
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,840
would happen. 
So if we find a new pathogen in 

393
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:18,040
goat's milk, does that person 
have an obligation to report 

394
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,040
that to USDA or FDA under our 
current guidelines? 

395
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,800
OK, so do you specifically want 
to talk bird flu or you want to 

396
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,400
talk your mystery Indian 
pathogen? 

397
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,960
Let's start with birds, yeah? 
I'm I'm more concerned about 

398
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,120
what's out there that we don't 
know about. 

399
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,840
Well, the problem is because we 
don't know about it. 

400
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,040
We don't know about it until 
people get sick, until people 

401
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,600
get sick or animals get sick. 
It's the same way. 

402
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,240
We unfortunately found the 
melamine thing forever ago. 

403
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:58,200
So EU, the FDA and the state 
departments of agriculture have 

404
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:05,320
actually been very proactive on 
the raw milk bird flu thing. 

405
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:10,480
So far that's been documented, 
it's been. 

406
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,000
So the bird flu virus has at 
least in the laboratory been 

407
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,880
able to be seen to be present in
raw cow milk. 

408
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,800
So because of that, the states 
that the states that have raw 

409
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,840
milk dairies that are registered
to make raw cow milk, they are 

410
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,520
now testing for bird flu. 
There has been zero evidence so 

411
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,960
far that the same thing happens 
in goats. 

412
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,640
However, my understanding is, is
that the goat farmers are being 

413
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,040
proactive and they are testing 
anyway because they want to tell

414
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,600
the consumer we don't have it in
goats. 

415
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,800
Knock on wood, you know? 
So has anybody been sickened by 

416
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,320
raw milk with bird flu? 
No. 

417
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,760
Has somebody been implicated? 
Yeah. 

418
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,680
Can you prove it? 
No. 

419
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,400
Bird flu. 
What a horrible, horrible. 

420
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,160
Because what do you do with it? 
It's off and on. 

421
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,680
For the last 20 years at least, 
the United States has been 

422
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,080
worried about what if bird flu 
mutates and starts making people

423
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,240
sick Because we have historical 
records, right? 

424
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,200
Spanish flu back in whenever the
heck it was, was bird flu. 

425
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,040
And the reason we call it bird 
flu or swine flu is it's a flu 

426
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:36,480
virus and it's naturally 
occurring in birds or pigs and 

427
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:41,760
it likes to do like do like my 
it's a mixing bowl is what it's 

428
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,640
called. 
I make chocolate chip cookies. 

429
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,680
I throw in some ingredients. 
We change it around and my 

430
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,680
cookies change a little bit, 
while the bird flu changes a 

431
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,160
little bit. 
And so in the mixing bowl, the 

432
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,320
virus changes. 
And what the government is 

433
00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,440
worried is that it's going to 
change in this mixing bowl and 

434
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,760
become really bad for humans, 
like Spanish flu. 

435
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,360
Of course, remember back in 
Spanish flu days, we didn't have

436
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,440
closed sewage system. 
We didn't understand we needed 

437
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,280
to use soap and water and brush 
our teeth and that we should 

438
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,360
wash our hands and things like 
that. 

439
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,040
We do understand basic 
cleanliness and hygiene now, 

440
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,640
although we have a whole lot 
more people in a lot less space 

441
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,360
now. 
So bird flu last year changed a 

442
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:42,280
little bit and it made some cats
sick. 12 out of 75,000,000 cats 

443
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,440
in the United States got sick 
and died. 

444
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,440
And I'm very sorry for the 12 
cats and the 12 owners, but I'm 

445
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,000
sorry, Look at statistics. 
That is a microcosm. 

446
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,320
It's not frozen cats. 
Holy cow, could you imagine? 

447
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,200
No, it's 12 cats and nobody 
wants that for their cat, but 

448
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,040
it's being misrepresented as 
God. 

449
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,760
They're all going to die, right?
We don't want it to mutate and 

450
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,960
become that. 
We certainly all lived whatever 

451
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,240
we lived with COVID, and nobody 
wants to go through that again. 

452
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,480
And so that's what government is
trying to do, is protect us from

453
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,080
ourselves. 
But we also need to be able to 

454
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,240
live life. 
And there's an element of making

455
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,800
a decision for yourself with 
government helping enough. 

456
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:40,000
So OK, go back to raw milk. 
You know it could be dangerous 

457
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,680
so put a sign on it and then if 
right, sushi. 

458
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,840
You guys eat sushi? 
BC doesn't. 

459
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,720
Maybe sushi? 
You do it all. 

460
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,480
That you eat sushi with your 
Diet Coke? 

461
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:58,000
No, BC doesn't need sushi, but 
there's a warning at the sushi 

462
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,400
restaurant. 
Sushi restaurants are doing 

463
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,600
great even though we could get 
sick. 

464
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,920
Right. 
And as immunocompromised that I 

465
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:07,920
am. 
Right. 

466
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,720
I'm a little bit more. 
You're going to be more 

467
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,200
precious. 
You should be. 

468
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,080
But I'm not more cautious. 
I'm more aware, but I'm not more

469
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,680
cautious. 
I mean, you've been out to. 

470
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,440
My you drink Diet Coke. 
Yeah, and I got horses and I, 

471
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,720
you know, I fall into a pile of 
manure and I go on. 

472
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:35,440
Yes, I dropped, but my whole 
where this came up is and and 

473
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,960
this goes back to one of your 
earlier rants. 

474
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,680
People do not rotate their pets 
food and and we've learned that 

475
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,920
we've learned that they'll even 
make the transition onto a fresh

476
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,400
food and then that's all they're
gonna feed by golly, because 

477
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,440
their dog is doing well with it 
and that's the end of that. 

478
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,200
So. 
They're lazy. 

479
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,720
I am. 
I don't rotate my food. 

480
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:07,040
So I think the manufacturers do 
have responsibility make sure 

481
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,400
that food is safe because again,
statistically it's shown that 

482
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,400
consumers do not treat raw pet 
food the same way as they treat 

483
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,080
their raw chicken to find that 
they assume. 

484
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,200
That to me, because I disagree 
based on our assessment of 

485
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,440
salmonella that this many 
humans, it's a zero. 

486
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,800
Those who can't see it, it's a 
00 humans are reported in the 

487
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:37,640
CDC database of having been 
sickened by raw pet food. 0 

488
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,600
where we've had humans die from 
kibble. 

489
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,320
From Kibble. 
Right, children. 

490
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,120
No, I'm not arguing that point 
at all, but it's shown that 

491
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,000
again. 
So let's let's say something 

492
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,920
comes through and it's Rift 
Valley is the the pathogen that 

493
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,600
they found that? 
No, but they're worried that 

494
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,720
that's going to come over here, 
of course. 

495
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:08,120
But if something like that comes
up and gets into the pet food, 

496
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,400
and those manufacturers are not 
testing for that, nor do they 

497
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,520
have the capabilities because, 
once again, they don't have the 

498
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,720
money for that. 
We're a small manufacturer. 

499
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,080
How can you expect us to test 
for all these things? 

500
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,200
Do they bear any accountability 
if they're food? 

501
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,600
But let's even simplify it. 
Let's go E coli, let's go 

502
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,480
salmonella. 
Now, granted we don't have any 

503
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:37,320
hospitalizations as we did. 
I mean, I was around in the big 

504
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,920
2007. 
So when you mentioned 15,000 

505
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,640
dead cats or whatever, I was 
selling pet food and people had 

506
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,440
cats dying in those numbers and 
they didn't know to test for 

507
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,560
that, that altered ingredient. 
Nobody was testing for that. 

508
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,120
In fact, they specifically were 
making sure that it couldn't be 

509
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,240
tested for. 
But you put that same situation 

510
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,520
out to a small real food 
manufacturer, they're going to 

511
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,240
say we don't have money to test 
for any of. 

512
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,880
Them So where are you buying 
your ingredients? 

513
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:15,480
Many of our members by USDA 
sourced and passed meats. 

514
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,600
So OK, let's talk several 
different diseases. 

515
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,280
Bird flu, for example, like 
salmonella is considered 

516
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,760
inherent in the animal. 
OK, Salmonella is inherent in 

517
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,040
poultry. 
That's court cases. 

518
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,920
It's by definition. 
The USDA allows a certain level 

519
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,160
of salmonella in the poultry. 
That exact same poultry goes to 

520
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,040
our manufacturer's food. 
It's the exact same food. 

521
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,160
It should be handled the same. 
We humans are not meant to eat 

522
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,560
it because it takes far too long
to go from our mouth to our butt

523
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,800
hole and we get sick. 
Dogs and cats mouth the butt 

524
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,680
hole really fast. 
Boom. 

525
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,440
They push it through. 
If there's a little bit of 

526
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,120
salmonella, if they have a good 
intestinal system, they don't 

527
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,480
get sick. 
And it is based on good 

528
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,440
intestinal system. 
So there, that's the you have 

529
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:10,760
helpers. 
Cats. 

530
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,360
Have helpers. 
So that's salmonella. 

531
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,960
We don't know enough about bird 
flu yet to say that, but our 

532
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,280
manufacturers, our members of 
Next Gen. are using USDA sourced

533
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,199
and past poultry meat. 
It has bird flu in it. 

534
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,560
It has bird flu in it. 
So it's the responsibility of 

535
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,080
the USDA to be testing for it, 
and they are, but it has bird 

536
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,040
flu in it. 
And so now it's being sent out. 

537
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,600
And So what happens when the FDA
is now regulating something that

538
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,800
was passed by the USDA? 
You've got 2 agencies with two 

539
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,360
different standards and yet pet 
food is for pets and the FDA is 

540
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,560
regulating as if it's for 
humans. 

541
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:03,400
So this is how swine, African 
swine fever and your Rift Valley

542
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,760
fever and you know, there are a 
bunch of other potential foot 

543
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,920
and mouth disease, hoof and 
mouth being different diseases. 

544
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,120
They're all being monitored. 
And if you're importing meat, 

545
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,120
they should, they're supposed to
be inspected before coming in. 

546
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,400
So the inspection agencies are 
supposed to be checking for 

547
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,360
these agents before it's allowed
in the US. 

548
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,880
The manufacturer shouldn't 
actually have to check for these

549
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,120
things until all of a sudden 
there's a worldwide outbreak. 

550
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,560
So bird flu has kind of changed 
and the FDA changed 

551
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:51,080
manufacturers responsibilities 
in January when they put out 

552
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,720
their policy guidance saying we 
just need you to write about it.

553
00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:59,200
Basically that's what they said 
was you need to think about bird

554
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,800
flu. 
It needs to be in your food 

555
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,680
safety plan. 
That's all the FDA said. 

556
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,320
Then they're the field agents 
who then took it to the next 

557
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,000
level and said, Oh my God, we 
found one live virus recall, 

558
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,040
recall, recall. 
Even though that same meat, the 

559
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:24,040
companies that had the recall 
bought USDA past meat the USDA 

560
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,600
had already inspected and said. 
So can I maybe I'm miss 

561
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:34,000
remembering this wasn't the 
testing being used for bird flu 

562
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:41,080
in in pet Well, anywhere it's 
me, it's it's my dog wasn't. 

563
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,120
It it was the. 
PCR testing right that it it 

564
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,440
wasn't differentiating between 
live and dead. 

565
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,800
PCR doesn't differentiate live 
and dead. 

566
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:56,040
PCR says DNA is present and it 
doesn't matter if the DNA is 

567
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,160
alive or dead, according to PCR,
it just says yes. 

568
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,320
Then the until bird flu, the 
gold standard had been virus 

569
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:12,320
isolation, which is send it off 
to the lab and the lab tries to 

570
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,560
create and grow a live virus. 
I mean, it's not really living 

571
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,880
because it's a virus, but if 
it's quote live, it can 

572
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,800
replicate. 
It can then go on and infect 

573
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:32,640
something else. 
And we were saying, prove it, 

574
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,320
prove it, prove it until the FDA
comes out and says, you know 

575
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,920
what, once it's in this food 
thing, the virus isolation test 

576
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,800
is not very accurate. 
True, Don't know. 

577
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:49,120
So then we got whole genome 
sequencing, which is still a 

578
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,240
piece of DNA, just very 
detailed. 

579
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:58,600
And allegedly what was found in 
the food was allegedly found in 

580
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,680
the infected animals. 
And yet when the manufacturer 

581
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,280
asked for the data, the 
manufacturer was never given 

582
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,160
both pieces of information. 
So the couple of manufacturers 

583
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,240
who did recall did it out of the
abundance of caution, just 

584
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:17,560
because they love animals and 
they didn't want to make cats 

585
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,520
sick. 
And so unfortunately and and 

586
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,520
these companies all but I'm I'm 
I am not lying the USDA past and

587
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:31,920
sourced meat. 
So and I'm sorry for the 12 

588
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,120
cats, but it's 12 out of 
75,000,000. 

589
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,440
That's very low statistics, very
low statistics. 

590
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,760
No one wants to be a statistic. 
I get it. 

591
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,720
I'm going to be ashed. 
Like when when most consumers 

592
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,120
think of food safety, they are 
thinking of salmonella, E coli, 

593
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,720
listeria, right? 
And there is a 0 tolerance 

594
00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:00,040
policy for that in raw pet food,
right? 

595
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,920
Right. 
On the FDA? 

596
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,240
OK, right. 
Keep going. 

597
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:07,680
And then I, I might, I might 
more carefully box in what you 

598
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:08,520
just said. 
Go ahead. 

599
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,760
OK, Yeah, well, that's that's my
hope is that you do more 

600
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,640
carefully box that in. 
I'm sure BC has plenty more 

601
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,440
questions. 
My biggest question and I don't 

602
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,200
think, I don't know that we can 
answer this, but like as what I 

603
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,560
consider myself to be an 
educated consumer, I bigger, 

604
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,080
bigger concern. 
My concern isn't with 

605
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,880
salmonella, E coli and listeria.
I just don't have that concern 

606
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,440
with what I feed my pets. 
What my concern is why have the 

607
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,480
recalls in kibble over the past 
handful of years decreased so 

608
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:40,400
significantly? 
Because. 

609
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,480
They're not being tested. 
I know what I like, I just I 

610
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,280
feel like there's this false 
sense of security being created.

611
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,800
Really. 
See and. 

612
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,120
That's what it sounds like. 
Go ahead BC. 

613
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Now keep in mind, I mean that 
food manufacturing is is I mean 

614
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,040
and that's my thing and it and 
it's kibble, I like it. 

615
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,720
I've been in plants, I've made 
food etcetera, etcetera. 

616
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,360
I would say that testing has 
gotten better at the 

617
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:18,680
manufacturing side of it. 
Manufacturers are to have more 

618
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,360
tests at their availability that
they're in lab can do where a 

619
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,640
lot of times those tests had to 
be sent out and. 

620
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,000
That the ingredient suppliers 
are also doing more testing 

621
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,000
because they're tired of getting
refused loads at the dock door. 

622
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,680
When my friends in the business 
go out there and they core the 

623
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,240
grain card or whatever they do 
and they come back and say, 

624
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:46,480
yeah, we're not taking this 
load, go on with it. 

625
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,760
So I would say it's a 
combination of all of it. 

626
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,920
Certainly the government doesn't
have money to do testing. 

627
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,000
And I would say most pet food on
the market, regardless if it's 

628
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:03,960
kibble or raw or fresh, most of 
it has not been tested by a 

629
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,000
government. 
We are relying completely on 

630
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,760
manufacturers. 
And most of the time you're 

631
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,080
talking about Co Packers. 
And once again, those Co Packers

632
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,680
are going to be so heavy on 
their ingredient suppliers. 

633
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,000
If you send me a bad load twice,
we're never doing business with 

634
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,920
you again because you have held 
up everything. 

635
00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:29,000
So those it's gotten a lot more 
stringent on the manufacturing 

636
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,080
side. 
Which is what the Food FISMA 

637
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:37,360
Food Safety Modernization Act 
was supposed to do. 

638
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,720
They were supposed to put this 
is every manufacturer is 

639
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:42,280
supposed to have a food safety 
plan. 

640
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,880
Well, my sarcastic remark, 
because I'm good at those ever 

641
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,600
since the beginning, was that's 
good manufacturing practices. 

642
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:55,040
And that's what manufacturers 
should have been doing all along

643
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,560
is you should have a food safety
plan. 

644
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,440
You should go, well, there's a 
light bulb right above this 

645
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,120
machine. 
Gosh, it could break. 

646
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,720
Why don't we put a cage over it?
And that goes in your food 

647
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:10,680
safety plan. 
And so this, this is good food 

648
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,120
safety. 
The Food Safety Modernization 

649
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,240
Act came out and one of the 
things that's supposed to happen

650
00:42:17,240 --> 00:42:21,320
is every food manufacturer, 
people or pet food is supposed 

651
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:22,920
to be inspected every five 
years. 

652
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,800
Everyman thinks they don't have 
money now and they want to 

653
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,040
balance a budget. 
They have never been able to 

654
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,880
inspect every manufacturer. 
I have manufacturers who have 

655
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:38,120
never been inspected but the 
opposite side of that exact same

656
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,640
coin. 
Flip it over and the other side 

657
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,560
is once you're considered a bad 
player in quote marks from the 

658
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,920
FDA. 
As in you come on their radar 

659
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,320
once, you never get off their 
list. 

660
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,640
If you come on their radar once,
they will inspect you year after

661
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,560
year without 0 forgiveness. 
They are going to regulate this 

662
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:06,240
one company into compliance. 
But if nobody else has, you know

663
00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:09,560
if other 15 companies haven't 
ever been inspected and don't 

664
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,080
come up on their radar, they 
never get inspected. 

665
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,520
And so that's not really what 
FISMA was supposed to be doing. 

666
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,520
The manufacturers absolutely are
responsible for their safety and

667
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:26,000
I agree BC there are some great 
tests that the manufacturers can

668
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,880
now look for the pathogens, the 
salmonella, the listeria 

669
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,600
monocytogenes because that's the
only bad listeria. 

670
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:36,560
There are a whole bunch of other
ones that don't matter. 

671
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,560
Coliola deck, which is the 
shigga toxin, it's another E 

672
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,280
coli. 
These are the ones that make 

673
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,680
people sick. 
And that's what we're worried 

674
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,720
about. 
Make people sick from pet food. 

675
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,520
None of you people should be 
eating pet food, should eat 

676
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,760
people food. 
Pet foods for pets. 

677
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:04,800
It needs to be safe. 
But dogs and cats with a normal 

678
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,800
healthy system can eat 
salmonella. 

679
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,240
I cannot. 
I get sick. 

680
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,040
They might get a little bit of 
soft poo tomorrow and then be 

681
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,880
fine and then go eat the cat 
poop and get soft poo that day 

682
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,040
too. 
So there are a lot of safety 

683
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:23,000
things in place now. 
OK. 

684
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,320
How come more cable companies 
aren't getting in trouble? 

685
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,800
So how long did it take for the 
government to figure out 

686
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,680
melamine? 
Long time because it hadn't been

687
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,840
identified, so they didn't know 
how to search for it. 

688
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,880
And I think the only reason they
found it, boy, talk about the 

689
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:49,480
good and the bad, is because 
animals continued to die. 

690
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,480
It was awful. 
Think back a year and a half 

691
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,360
ago, one of the big 
manufacturers was implicated in 

692
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,480
a lot of animals with nasty 
bloody poo and some deaths and 

693
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,760
stuff. 
And the government did a bunch 

694
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,240
of research and they never found
anything. 

695
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:10,200
And I know people who did 
private investigation trying to 

696
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:16,440
find, trying to find, couldn't 
ever find anything and animals 

697
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,400
died and there was never an 
announcement. 

698
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:25,400
There was never a public health 
for pets warning and humans 

699
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,000
weren't sick. 
It's awful a lot. 

700
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,480
If we go back back to melanin 
and correct me if I have this 

701
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,120
wrong, but that was discovered 
by a manufacturer that wasn't 

702
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,200
even government that. 
Was it? 

703
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,600
Well, that's what I have always 
heard. 

704
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,080
Now again, it was one of the big
5 at the time. 

705
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,400
But yeah, it was. 
It was discovered there first 

706
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,760
and then of course confirmed. 
OK. 

707
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:55,360
That was I was not. 
I was fresh out of vet school 

708
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,000
and still recommending food I 
would never recommend anymore. 

709
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:04,200
Right. 
I know better I know better now 

710
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,320
I know better. 
I've had more education than 

711
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,280
what they force fed us in vet 
school. 

712
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,000
So that's that's good info BC I.
Don't know listeria. 

713
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,280
The problem with the listeria 
again if I'm I'm correct is it's

714
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,360
all about the lab. 
I mean, the manufacturing plant 

715
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,800
listeria, you really need to be 
checking in your facility, not 

716
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,600
necessarily in the food because 
it can really be rampant and 

717
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,640
you'll never find it in the food
because it can hide in little 

718
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,400
pockets. 
It's a where you catch. 

719
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,800
Yeah, so. 
These things that all bacteria 

720
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,600
are that way. 
I mean, the so is the flu. 

721
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,720
It's it's all that way. 
Yeah. 

722
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,640
And, and for the most part, 
Listeria monocytogenes is 

723
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,920
considered to be a contaminant. 
It likes refrigeration, so it 

724
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,480
grows in the fridge, doesn't 
grow in the freezer, and it does

725
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,240
not grow at room temperature. 
But if you kill every other 

726
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:12,080
bacteria in that pile of meat, 
Listeria goes ha ha, baby, put 

727
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,160
me in the fridge, I am going to 
grow. 

728
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,600
And it makes humans sick again. 
Don't eat the dog food. 

729
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,960
Don't eat the dog food and wash 
your hands please. 

730
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,320
Wash your hands and wash the dog
dish. 

731
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,200
Yeah. 
Don't leave it on the floor 

732
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,400
because the three-year old 
children go look, Fluffy eats 

733
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,640
out of this. 
Let's pretend let's have tea 

734
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,200
because that's what kids do. 
So parenting is protect our kids

735
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:43,360
and you know, teach our kids 
from the beginning, raw pet 

736
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:49,960
food, raw chicken, wash your 
hands, cut your veggies, then 

737
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:52,680
your meat. 
Don't do your salad after the 

738
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,440
chicken. 
We've been told good food 

739
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:01,280
handling for decades for people 
food the exact same good food 

740
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,800
handling training. 
Good food handling is what has 

741
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,160
made humans have much less 
disease. 

742
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,320
Because now we know you cut your
lettuce before you cut your 

743
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,760
chicken, wash your cutting 
board. 

744
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,360
I got 6 once for meat, once for 
veggies, once for onion. 

745
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,440
Nothing fruits on the onion 
board. 

746
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,320
I will yell at you when my 
cantaloupe tastes like onions. 

747
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,040
But that's that's how we learned
things. 

748
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,520
And there was a period of time 
when people washed their meat. 

749
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,280
And now the researchers are 
finding that when people wash 

750
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,280
their meat, they're actually 
sprinkling bacteria all over the

751
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,160
sink. 
Right. 

752
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,760
No, you take the hose and you 
spray it down. 

753
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,040
You know, and actually 
everything that you just talked 

754
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,200
about by statistics, you should 
be doing with kibble. 

755
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,280
You should kibble absolutely. 
You should be washing your bowl,

756
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,880
you should be washing your hands
after handling that kibble. 

757
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,600
There's more chance of a 
contaminant in that kibble than 

758
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:04,560
there is that fresher raw food. 
So. 

759
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:10,320
OK, with fresh food in general, 
are, you know, manufacturers are

760
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,960
using safety measures, some that
I can name off the top of my 

761
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,880
head, some are being cooked, 
some are using HPP, some are 

762
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,040
using bacteriophages, some some 
are doing test and hold, some 

763
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,120
are doing multiples, you know, 
including test and hold. 

764
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,400
So I'm just I'm curious BC like 
where, where are the 

765
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:38,000
shortcomings that you're seeing?
Don't think I'm rapidly trying 

766
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,720
to list manufacturers in my head
there's not enough test and hold

767
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:47,400
happening in the real and fresh 
food movement. 

768
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,000
I do not think enough. 
In fact I don't think most of 

769
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,160
the manufacturers. 
Now again, there are so many of 

770
00:49:55,160 --> 00:50:00,120
them, but test and hold is not 
being done enough in my opinion 

771
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,280
and I'm waiting on deck Kathy 
because she should know more 

772
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,160
than I do. 
I'm going through my list in my 

773
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,360
head just like you just did. 
Go tick, tick, tick, tick. 

774
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,640
There are a good number of 
manufacturers who rely on the 

775
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,400
supplier. 
I think that's a problem too, 

776
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,680
because in fact. 
It's for E coli O157H7 is it 

777
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:29,200
ultimately went back to the 
farm, the feed lot, and when the

778
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:35,480
producer of the beef stopped 
providing deadly E coli 

779
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,880
contaminated meat, everybody 
downstream always protected. 

780
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:47,200
We look at now again, I, I hate 
to mention a kibble, but Natura 

781
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,880
Pet Products was a great 
company. 

782
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,360
It was one of the kibbles that I
did recommend at the time. 

783
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,160
Now, this was 20 years ago, darn
near 1518 years ago. 

784
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,800
And when they got bought out by 
Procter and Gamble, which 

785
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,720
Procter and Gamble killed that 
brand and it's not even being 

786
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:09,600
made anymore. 
But anyway, when they bought it,

787
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,400
they stopped test and hold and 
they stopped test and hold 

788
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,160
because they brought in their 
proprietary kill step. 

789
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,760
Procter and Gamble had a 
proprietary kill step and I 

790
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:28,480
toured that plant because I made
a big thing in Indiana. 

791
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,440
I threw all my Natur out on the 
curb, donated it to the food 

792
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,320
shelters and I said I'm not 
going to sell this food even 

793
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,200
though it's my number one food. 
And it got picked up by me. 

794
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,320
A great vice president. 
He's no longer with the company,

795
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,160
with Procter and Gamble called 
me up and said I will fly you to

796
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:53,000
that plant and show you what's 
different and show you anything 

797
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,120
you want to see. 
And I went to that plant and I 

798
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,640
asked about test and holding. 
They said we don't do that 

799
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:00,520
because of our proprietary kill 
step. 

800
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,760
And I said that's wonderful, but
there's a huge problem there. 

801
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:10,040
About 3 months later, they had 
the first massive recall at the 

802
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,600
end. 
Problem with that was it was 

803
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,080
being contaminated by workers 
after the kill step. 

804
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,560
That's the problem with relying 
on your manufacturers or your 

805
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,680
ingredient suppliers is because 
it's going to get contaminated 

806
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,720
in the manufacturing process, 
which is why test and hold, in 

807
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:32,680
my opinion, should be industry 
standard. 

808
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,760
You are. 
Nobody cares about my opinion. 

809
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:40,000
You're 100% right. 
And even even on HPP product, 

810
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:46,120
you know, very often on HPP, it 
goes back to the after it's been

811
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,480
processed, it goes back to the 
manufacturer and they often 

812
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,440
repackage it. 
Boom, there's your 

813
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,160
contamination, people food and 
pet food. 

814
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:58,280
There's a lot of people food 
that's HPP that people don't 

815
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,880
realize about anyway. 
Agree 100% BC and you're right, 

816
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:05,400
not everybody does test and 
hold. 

817
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,440
Yeah, and excuses. 
The excuses are, well, it caused

818
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,520
a lot of storage. 
I know. 

819
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,680
How much does a recall cost you?
I hear you loud and clear on 

820
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,520
that one. 
Yeah, I'm writing that down. 

821
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,840
Got my note maker. 
She's taking a lot of notes from

822
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:22,800
you today. 
This is beautiful. 

823
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,400
And I'm good. 
And I, I'm kind of backing off 

824
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,680
because, I mean, we've hit that 
hour mark or so and I want to 

825
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,080
make sure Jessica gets all her 
questions. 

826
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,480
What are you talking about? 
Wait, does everybody? 

827
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,520
Listen to three hour podcast. 
I mean. 

828
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:44,200
Sorry, but I listen, but I 
almost exclusively, anytime I 

829
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,880
have time that I'm going to 
consume media, I'm listening to 

830
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,120
probably a Joe Rogan podcast and
those are generally 3 hours. 

831
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,160
So yes, people will. 
There's no way. 

832
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,200
People will if it's an 
interesting conversation. 

833
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,480
I am very interested in this 
conversation so. 

834
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:07,600
Well, then I would say the last 
kind of we've touched on it a 

835
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:12,240
little bit, but the biggest 
problem that we have in the real

836
00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:20,360
and fresh and cooked, there is 
no standardized policies and 

837
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,920
protocols. 
There's the Food Safety Act 

838
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,600
which says certain things. 
But once again, I come back to 

839
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,520
if Company A has discovered 
something, they're not going to 

840
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,640
share with Company B. 
In fact, they're going to 

841
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,280
trigger out how to migrate and 
so that they don't have to share

842
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,240
with anybody if they could. 
That's where. 

843
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:50,240
And now, correct me if I'm 
wrong, but if as long as I don't

844
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:54,920
put that ASCO sticker on my 
food, if I start buying goat's 

845
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,040
milk, I register with the state 
chemist here in Indiana, I can 

846
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:04,280
sell that as a pet food, A pet 
food supplement, because it 

847
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:05,760
wouldn't be a complete 
imbalance. 

848
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:11,480
The USDAFDA and any governing 
bodies besides the state chemist

849
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,320
would have no idea that I'm 
making a pet food. 

850
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,880
If you never leave Indiana, what
you have just said is correct. 

851
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,320
And there are, there are a bunch
of small companies and that's 

852
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,560
what they do. 
And if I leave Indiana, what 

853
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,640
triggers that though, is that 
voluntarily if I start selling 

854
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,440
it on the Internet? 
Now you're talking apples and 

855
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,600
oranges. 
Are you trekking it over to 

856
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,120
Illinois? 
Are you selling on the Internet?

857
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,560
2 Totally different than 
Internet. 

858
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:48,560
Yeah, Internet's a Gray area, 
and it depends on the state. 

859
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,640
There are some states that are 
actively looking for 

860
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:57,400
manufacturers who are selling 
and some of the state, some of 

861
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,680
the state regulators are 
actually ordering that online 

862
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:07,560
pet food to prove that it's 
being sold across state lines to

863
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:12,320
then tell the manufacturer you 
need to register in this state. 

864
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:16,560
So that's that. 
Yeah, there are, Savvy. 

865
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:21,040
So they have money to have 
people slufing the Internet. 

866
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:28,200
You know what it it's, it's a 
couple of states who have a pet 

867
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,400
peeve, and it depends on who's 
in charge of the office. 

868
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,240
So, for example, bird flu, 
Oregon and Washington have a 

869
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:40,760
pickle up there. 
You know what about bird flu 

870
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,960
where most of the other states 
are like OK, is it on your food 

871
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,000
safety plan? 
OK, Like California was like OK,

872
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,040
but it came from California. 
But anyway, Washington and 

873
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,680
Oregon had a pickle up their 
hiney about it. 

874
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,640
So certain states have a pickle 
up their rear end about online 

875
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:03,240
sales in the way that the laws 
have now been written in the 

876
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:09,480
last two years of of the AFCO, 
the model bill, because it's an 

877
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:16,480
example, it isn't national law. 
That website is part of a label.

878
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,920
So if you sell your food online,
what it says on your website is 

879
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,160
part of your label. 
And there are a couple of states

880
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:30,440
that will read everything. 
Some states will come looking 

881
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:34,880
for you, many don't have the 
manpower to do it. 

882
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:39,040
And so it's who's in charge of 
the office and who who has pet 

883
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:44,640
peeve so. 
A lot of times it's snitches 

884
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,000
like myself. 
It is snitches. 

885
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:52,000
Yeah, I got stop sell long time 
ago by the state of Indiana for 

886
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:56,400
selling a hemp based pet food. 
Grandma Lucy's. 

887
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,320
It was great, great pet food. 
They stopped. 

888
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,560
Trouble for that? 
Well, when the state of Indiana 

889
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:08,000
stop selling me and pulled it 
off my shelves because they knew

890
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,800
I would sell it underneath the 
counter like I was on Life 

891
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:17,240
Extension, it was sitting in 
Chuy's distribution center right

892
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,280
down the street from me. 
And I knew that because I had a 

893
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:24,000
friend at the distributor and I 
went back to the state chemist 

894
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:29,440
and I said, this is how much of 
Grandma Lucy's hemp seed 

895
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:33,640
products that Chewie is 
receiving here in Indiana. 

896
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,960
Why aren't you stopping them? 
And they said we can't tell 

897
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,880
where they're selling it, so 
they could be selling it to 

898
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:42,560
Illinois, which would be just 
fine. 

899
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:43,800
And. 
Oh, it wasn't. 

900
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,680
I did not like that. 
Because because the FDA said 

901
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,480
hemp in food, pet food is 
illegal. 

902
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:54,280
No no, no, it doesn't matter 
what state you're in. 

903
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,120
I've heard of several people 
telling on Grandma Lucy's. 

904
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,440
So that was a cop out on Indiana
part. 

905
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,400
Well, I was trying to get Chewy 
in trouble. 

906
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,560
I lived in trying to get Carmel 
Lucy in trouble. 

907
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:12,760
Yeah, so isn't that interesting?
Because Indiana has a reputation

908
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:18,840
for being nitpicky would be a 
generous kind term in their 

909
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:24,040
review of labels. 
And yet they allowed commerce. 

910
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:29,760
Because the field inspector did 
not want to have to go through 

911
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,040
the Chewy distribution center 
right now. 

912
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:35,760
Again, I will qualify that this 
was years ago and they've 

913
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,520
changed the food inspector 
that's out in the field. 

914
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,920
But back then, he wasn't 
interested in walking that that 

915
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:47,000
distribution center, no. 
But the label people in the 

916
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,360
offense. 
He won because he got food off 

917
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:51,480
your shelf. 
Boom. 

918
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,960
I can take the rest of the month
off, right? 

919
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,920
Yeah, you're right. 
You're right. 

920
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,360
Low hanging fruit. 
Exactly. 

921
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,560
But Lucy's doesn't make that 
anymore, do they? 

922
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,880
So at the end of the day, at the
end of the day, consumers have 

923
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,880
to be have to take on the 
responsibility of educating 

924
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,280
themselves. 
Regardless of pet food or 

925
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:20,560
people's food, pick a neck. 
So what I'm curious from both of

926
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:25,080
you, from your different 
perspectives, when a consumer is

927
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:29,080
going to choose a pet food, What
should they be looking for? 

928
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:34,680
When we are talking specifically
about pet food safety, I would 

929
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,040
tell them to call the 
manufacturer and ask what are 

930
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,760
their protocols when it comes. 
Use some specifics. 

931
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:46,000
Ask them about bird flu. 
Ask them about test and hold. 

932
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,480
If they're not doing test and 
hold, what are they doing? 

933
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,640
What is their kill step? 
If they don't like providing 

934
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,160
that information, move on to the
next manufacturer that will tell

935
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:59,760
you that that's and that's where
a lot of this, when I reached 

936
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,920
out to you, Jessica, was because
I've been doing a lot of that 

937
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:08,000
for people that I'm consulting 
with and I'm getting told, yeah,

938
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,040
I'll tell you, but you can't 
tell anybody or we're not 

939
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,400
telling you. 
It's a big secret. 

940
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,080
And I hate that. 
And I don't think it's doing our

941
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:19,120
industry well. 
And I think a lot of us, 

942
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:24,840
especially in the real food 
communities are making 

943
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,320
assumptions about some 
manufacturers that you should 

944
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,240
not be making assumptions about 
that. 

945
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,040
That's other before I turn it 
over to Doctor Cathy on that. 

946
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,120
The other thing I would tell you
is audit because as we've said, 

947
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,000
people are not rotating their 
manufacturers well enough. 

948
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:45,640
If you think BC's pet food is 
doing great for your dog, you've

949
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,720
already asked all the questions 
of me when you started feeding 

950
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,320
it a year ago. 
You should be calling me again 

951
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,760
in a year because I might have 
changed. 

952
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,600
I may not believe in test and 
hold anymore. 

953
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,240
So you got to audit your 
manufacturer as well if you want

954
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,440
the absolute best for your pets.
I think I agree with everything 

955
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,760
you said. 
I agree all the manufacturers. 

956
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,880
I am going to have to bookmark 
this because you've agreed with 

957
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,360
me multiple times and I've 
stopped you multiple times and 

958
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:15,520
once. 
I've never done that twice. 

959
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:17,800
See twice. 
OK, I'll take it. 

960
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:21,360
I'll take it as a land. 
OK, that's awesome. 

961
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:27,640
No, I agree completely. 
All right, let's talk politics. 

962
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:30,960
Not really politics. 
Now, you mentioned way back at 

963
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,320
the beginning that maybe Afco's 
going away. 

964
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,160
Oh boy, there's a lot changing. 
So what, a year, year and a half

965
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:44,040
ago, the per act PURR was 
proposed by Pet Food Institute. 

966
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:48,200
And basically what they said was
let's move it all to the FDA. 

967
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,560
But now the new government is 
like, whoa now, hold on. 

968
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,200
We don't want to spend the 
money. 

969
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,160
It's all going back to the state
again. 

970
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:01,960
So it's been fascinating 
watching the state regulators. 

971
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,480
A year ago, I think it was AFCO,
in August, it was it. 

972
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,800
Were you at that one, Jessica? 
Was that the one when Stan 

973
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:12,320
cried? 
Yeah. 

974
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,960
OK, Stan Cook from Kansas, he's 
now retired. 

975
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:22,400
Because if the PER act was 
passed, all the state regulators

976
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:27,240
in the room, all 500 up, well 
200 of them because the rest is 

977
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,560
industry could potentially have 
been out of a job and it was all

978
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:35,440
going to the FDA. 
And so for about two months we 

979
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,640
heard, well, I don't know, we 
don't know how things are going 

980
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:44,120
to go because the FDA published 
the end the whole chapter 6 out 

981
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,320
of the AFCO official publication
is like, oh, it's been public. 

982
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,480
They're not going to make any 
money anymore. 

983
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,400
Now all of a sudden Afco's back 
in busy and they're doing stuff 

984
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,240
and they're not the least bit 
worried about their jobs again 

985
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,160
because the whole deregulation. 
And it's fascinating to watch 

986
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:06,000
the behavior of the state 
regulators because a year ago 

987
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,880
they were shaking in their 
shoes, afraid that they weren't 

988
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,640
having a job. 
And now I think they think they 

989
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:18,200
have job security. 
So we got a lot of changes and 

990
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:22,960
it's going to be an interesting 
future to see how things change.

991
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,640
I think all of us can probably 
agree, well, yeah, easy. 

992
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:28,680
We all agree we want pet food to
be safe. 

993
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:34,400
We probably have different 
definitions of what safety looks

994
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:40,400
like and or how much need for 
regulatory intervention there 

995
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,400
is. 
But I agree with UBC, the 

996
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,040
manufacturers should be 
transparent. 

997
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,960
They should say this is what we 
do. 

998
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:50,800
Here's how we keep your pet 
safe. 

999
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,360
And you know what? 
If you have an immune suppressed

1000
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:55,520
animal, don't feed straight up 
raw. 

1001
01:04:55,680 --> 01:05:00,600
Or if you do understand you have
an immune suppressed animal and 

1002
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,160
you're feeding straight up raw, 
accept the responsibility. 

1003
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:09,280
If I go get sushi and I go 
order, is it the puffer fish 

1004
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,680
that kills? 
Yeah, yeah. 

1005
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,720
If I order puffer fish, I walked
in the door and I read the sign 

1006
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,720
at the front door, it's my own 
choice. 

1007
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:21,320
I'm not going to sue the 
restaurant if I get sick. 

1008
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,560
If I die, then you know my 
family is not going to sue 

1009
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:28,000
because I walked in and I agreed
based on the sign. 

1010
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:35,800
Every pet food, cooked, canned, 
should all have a safety warning

1011
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:37,400
on it. 
Maybe all food should have a 

1012
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:39,760
safety warning on it. 
Xylitol. 

1013
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:46,560
I have a client years ago, years
ago was making sweets for church

1014
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,680
and decided oh they get too much
sugar I'm going to use xylitol. 

1015
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,880
The Wiener dog ate it. 
He died. 

1016
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:58,280
She was so upset, she called the
xylitol company and said, why 

1017
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:01,920
isn't there a warning? 
And what was their their caveat?

1018
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,600
They're out. 
Dogs aren't our intended 

1019
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,280
consumer. 
OK. 

1020
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:11,880
And so then the little man died.
How do you compare that with the

1021
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:15,120
antifreeze companies? 
The antifreeze companies are now

1022
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:17,840
some of them are putting on 
their packaging. 

1023
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,360
Dogs and cats may die if they 
drink this. 

1024
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:22,360
Don't leave it laying around on 
the ground. 

1025
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,480
So you've got to. 
I think it's on there. 

1026
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,960
Yeah, you've got a company who's
willing to accept it and or some

1027
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:35,000
states have legislated that the 
antifreeze has to say that 

1028
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:40,320
because enough pet parents said 
enough, it's got to say it got 

1029
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,440
to protect the animals. 
When we were doing pet food 

1030
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:48,720
labeling, modernization, 
preparation, it took ten years 

1031
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,360
in AFCO to come up with new pet 
food labels like we were 

1032
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:58,120
supposed to do 17 years ago. 
One of the discussions was 

1033
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:03,080
safety, safety statements and 
symbols to put on pet food. 

1034
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,760
And this was before all of us 
got kicked off. 

1035
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,240
And the the people on the call 
were like, well, we think raw 

1036
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:11,400
pet food needs to have safety 
warnings. 

1037
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,880
And I'm like, whoa, now Whole 
Food needs safety warning. 

1038
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,480
And I got out my statistics and 
I said kibble has made more 

1039
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:24,800
people sick and had one member 
from the FDA who agreed with me.

1040
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:29,440
Then there was that lawsuit and 
then I got kicked off and I'm 

1041
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,520
back now. 
But so then it made it through 

1042
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:38,200
and nobody the the result was 
nobody's required to put those 

1043
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:44,240
safety statements on their food.
They are available if people or 

1044
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,120
manufacturers wish wish to use 
it. 

1045
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:51,880
Most raw pet food manufacturers 
actually say this is raw. 

1046
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:56,440
It may contain harmful bacteria.
Don't eat it. 

1047
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:58,480
It's for your dog, it's for your
cat. 

1048
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:01,600
Most of them do. 
They don't all they should have 

1049
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:05,240
the sushi warning like the sushi
restaurants they should. 

1050
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:09,720
Remember that labeling one of 
the symbols discussed was the 

1051
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:13,680
biohazard. 
We're going to put the biohazard

1052
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,920
symbol on raw pet food. 
Yeah. 

1053
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:19,880
But yeah, luckily that did not 
pass. 

1054
01:08:20,240 --> 01:08:23,200
Luckily it didn't pass. 
They were just common sense 

1055
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,040
things like keep refrigerated, 
throw out in doubt, if in doubt,

1056
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:31,439
that sort of thing. 
But yeah, yeah, yes, because you

1057
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:34,920
got to continue participating 
after the rest of us got kicked 

1058
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,439
off for a while because you. 
No, I got banned too. 

1059
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,240
Did you get? 
You did get banned also. 

1060
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:45,479
Yeah, I, yeah, I, I was a 
consumer advocate on the board 

1061
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,840
and got banned and never came 
back. 

1062
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:51,120
And I fought it. 
I begged and pleaded with them 

1063
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:54,160
and they were not interested in 
me coming back at the time. 

1064
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,880
You know, it's funny because 
that came from the executive 

1065
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:07,479
director at that time. 
Who I did not like, but once 

1066
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,720
again, I mean, that's the 
biggest you want to talk about 

1067
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,080
the biggest weak link when it 
comes to consumers. 

1068
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,800
What you just were talking 
about, Jessica, is you notice 

1069
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:21,279
neither one of us said look for 
the AFCO statement because we 

1070
01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:25,560
don't care about the AFCO 
statement because AFCO is really

1071
01:09:26,359 --> 01:09:30,640
nothing. 
AFCO is a way for state 

1072
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:35,479
employees to go on a little 
brief vacation and get paid for 

1073
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:38,200
it has nothing to do with pet 
food safety. 

1074
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,680
Now once again, this is the 
opinions of BC and not 

1075
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,040
necessarily of the others on 
this podcast, right? 

1076
01:09:43,279 --> 01:09:46,399
But that's the whole purpose of 
AFCO. 

1077
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:51,120
It it has very little to do with
real pet food safety. 

1078
01:09:52,359 --> 01:10:01,640
Co originated with livestock 
feed 120 years ago. 

1079
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:06,000
Food didn't exist when AFCO was 
created. 

1080
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:10,960
AFCO was created so that the 
states could figure out how they

1081
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:16,960
were going to regulate livestock
feed as it went across state 

1082
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,680
borders. 
And then, I don't know, 70s all 

1083
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:23,800
of a sudden they went food 
exists. 

1084
01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:31,000
And then around 2000 they went 
raw pet food exists and raw milk

1085
01:10:31,440 --> 01:10:33,680
for pets. 
Yeah, agreed. 

1086
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,920
AFCO complete balanced, 
whatever. 

1087
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:40,640
It means your cable has enough 
nutrients to maintain life. 

1088
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:46,520
Yeah, keep in mind, I know we're
winding down here, but my last 

1089
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,480
little story I want to say about
AFCO because I was there. 

1090
01:10:50,480 --> 01:10:58,680
I was there the moment that 
Doctor Kathy was booed, Booed by

1091
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:04,360
the state regulators for just 
proposing that maybe plastic 

1092
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,040
isn't the best thing to feed the
cows. 

1093
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:11,560
She was booed and it wasn't 
audience members. 

1094
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,400
I mean, it was audience members 
too. 

1095
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,960
It was it. 
Was this regulator sitting at 

1096
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:19,280
the board? 
And I was there for that moment,

1097
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:23,640
and I was also there when they 
called our good friend Roxana, a

1098
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:25,680
hippie, for some of her 
thoughts. 

1099
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:30,520
Vegetarian hippie. 
Yes, yes, but. 

1100
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:34,000
Absolutely. 
That's where I come from when I 

1101
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,920
say Asco's not doing anything 
really good for our pet. 

1102
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,640
I can't. 
I mean, that's such, part of me 

1103
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:46,400
wants to get angry and say that 
it's intentional, but I don't. 

1104
01:11:46,440 --> 01:11:48,720
I mean, in these cases, I don't 
think it is. 

1105
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,200
I think it's short sightedness. 
Ignorance. 

1106
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:52,680
For Yeah I. 
Mean. 

1107
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:59,560
The fact that we're finding a 
credit card size worth of 

1108
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:05,640
plastic in the human brain at 
this point when when we die is 

1109
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:09,440
astounding. 
And to think that we can feed it

1110
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:13,880
to the animals that we are then 
eating from and it's not going 

1111
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,440
to affect us in the long term 
like that. 

1112
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:21,440
I I can only admit it sounds 
very short sighted on on their. 

1113
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,360
They're keeping it out of the 
landfill. 

1114
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:30,240
They are very proud of reducing 
waste to the landfill by 

1115
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:34,240
upcycling the waste and and 
gosh, Can you imagine if it's a 

1116
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:38,560
credit card in US, how big is it
in our pets since they're 

1117
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,880
getting the waste from our food?
I can't imagine. 

1118
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:44,640
I really can't. 
Right. 

1119
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:48,080
It's so sad. 
It's so sad to me. 

1120
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:52,240
Yeah, there's, there's the would
be my big safety thing. 

1121
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:55,800
It's the recycled waste, which 
is why I represent fresh pet 

1122
01:12:55,800 --> 01:13:01,080
food manufacturers. 
And that's why it's been 8-9 

1123
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,600
years, You know, when I 
relinquished my veterinary 

1124
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:07,040
license and started the trade 
association. 

1125
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:13,320
It's because it's critical to me
that if people want it, they can

1126
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:17,880
find fresh food for their pets. 
And nobody represents these 

1127
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:21,520
manufacturers at EFCO until I 
came along and formed the trade 

1128
01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,080
association and I'm now on the 
committees. 

1129
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:28,320
And even though we all got 
kicked off the individual 

1130
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:32,320
chairs, I talked to each one 
every meeting until we got 

1131
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:37,280
formally welcomed back in. 
I was always welcomed to 

1132
01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:40,360
represent fresh food. 
And I, I asked each one 

1133
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:42,720
permission. 
Can I still sit at the table? 

1134
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,440
And they're like, sure, Kathy, 
come on. 

1135
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:47,440
And I'm like, thank you. 
I can still represent food even 

1136
01:13:47,440 --> 01:13:50,720
though that executive director 
was closed minded. 

1137
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:56,200
Executive director, I think is 
pretty good, pretty fair, pretty

1138
01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:59,160
good. 
Well, and that's what like I 

1139
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,680
know when we come into a 
discussion on pet food safety, 

1140
01:14:02,760 --> 01:14:05,440
that I think is what most people
are thinking of salmonella, 

1141
01:14:05,440 --> 01:14:08,080
listeria, E coli, the, you know,
pathogenic bacterias. 

1142
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:15,360
But I do think of pet food 
safety as quality of food than 

1143
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:19,520
not feed right like that. 
That is something that I think 

1144
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:24,200
is more important to our animals
than Salmonella U Colon. 

1145
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:27,840
To find food and feed to mean 
the same thing. 

1146
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:31,480
And that's very frustrating. 
And I would agree that that 

1147
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:34,280
might be safety. 
And how about weren't you there 

1148
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:36,480
Jessica, for the copper 
discussions? 

1149
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:41,400
I no, I was the last year was 
the only one I I went to and 

1150
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:43,840
they they. 
Were finishing the copper. 

1151
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:46,680
Just yeah, they said no, we're 
not going to. 

1152
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:48,560
They just said no, we're not 
going to settle. 

1153
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:50,240
In the end of. 
Discussion. 

1154
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:53,200
And that was all they said. 
You know, because of because of 

1155
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:57,680
implications of copper storage 
disease in dogs could 

1156
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:02,640
potentially be exacerbated by 
high copper in the pet food. 

1157
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:07,320
And there are lots of biological
factors that go into that. 

1158
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:10,640
Some dogs are going to have 
problems and some aren't. 

1159
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,720
And right, so you're right, we 
could go on. 

1160
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:15,840
It is good. 
Scheduled 3 hours. 

1161
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,640
Kidding, but that's a safety 
issue also. 

1162
01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:24,000
It is. 
In making a a maximum limit for 

1163
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,880
copper in a middle of the road 
for copper. 

1164
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:30,400
So it's voluntary. 
If a company wants to say have 

1165
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:34,640
restricted copper, they can or 
limited or whatever the word is.

1166
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,360
It just wasn't written into the 
model built. 

1167
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:41,840
But a manufacturer can do that 
so that if they're trying to 

1168
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:44,920
help, you know, and who would do
that? 

1169
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:48,840
A manufacturer who had a dog 
with copper storage disease or 

1170
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:53,040
with liver disease or failure 
and it was linked to copper and 

1171
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:55,560
that's who would do it. 
And there are a few 

1172
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,320
manufacturers who do have 
limited copper foods. 

1173
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,520
You have to call them. 
They don't put it on their label

1174
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:06,800
because the regulators are all 
doesn't say that. 

1175
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,560
You can say that, but it doesn't
say that you can't say it. 

1176
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:14,760
And who wants to submit your 
label to Indiana 75 times and 

1177
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:18,120
five other states? 
It's not just Indiana, but there

1178
01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:23,160
are under 10 that are pickier 
than others. 

1179
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:26,360
Kentucky. 
Go ahead. 

1180
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:30,680
She's not as much anymore. 
Oh well, that's good. 

1181
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:32,400
Kentucky used to be one of the 
worst. 

1182
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:35,440
She used to be. 
I don't know what changed 

1183
01:16:35,440 --> 01:16:37,160
overall. 
She spent some time as the 

1184
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,200
director or the. 
Maybe so overall. 

1185
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:42,440
Well, she's mellowed. 
I see her smile. 

1186
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:47,800
Well, I think I think we came 
into this at least BC thought 

1187
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:52,000
that there was going to be like 
some opposition here. 

1188
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:55,200
But it sounds like you 2 pretty 
much are on the same page I. 

1189
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:57,440
Appreciate that. 
Just get that perspective. 

1190
01:16:57,440 --> 01:17:02,080
We're close enough and I have 
some great new notes like 

1191
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:05,160
Calvin, yes and BC. 
You made some beautiful points 

1192
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:08,760
and they absolutely are things 
that the manufacturers need to 

1193
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,880
address. 
Transparency is key. 

1194
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:16,880
Melamine would not have happened
if transparency were there. 

1195
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:21,720
Yep, and if all rent real and 
fresh pet food manufacturers 

1196
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:24,200
were a member of your 
association, we wouldn't even be

1197
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,120
having this conversation only. 
Work one job and it would. 

1198
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:30,320
So I mean happening. 
And you're not a member. 

1199
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:34,000
Contact me. 
Yeah, reach out or ask the guys.

1200
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:37,720
They'll tell you how to find me.
I'm telling you, the last last 

1201
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:39,880
year I I'm probably gonna do it 
again this year. 

1202
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:43,080
Last year when I was walking 
around super zoo, every pet food

1203
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:45,920
manufacturer I talked to, I was 
like, you're you're first of 

1204
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,080
all, I said, why are you not, 
why do you not have, why are you

1205
01:17:49,080 --> 01:17:52,320
not at AFCO meetings? 
And then I said, are you part of

1206
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:54,200
next Gen. 
I did with like everybody I 

1207
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:57,080
talked and they all said I never
heard of it, right. 

1208
01:17:57,440 --> 01:17:59,480
You probably found three that 
were members. 

1209
01:17:59,960 --> 01:18:01,560
I had, I found a couple that 
were members. 

1210
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:02,600
Yeah. 
And. 

1211
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:04,920
And everybody was just like 
those. 

1212
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:07,600
Those meetings are so boring. 
I'm like, I realize that this is

1213
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:11,080
literally what you do. 
They are pure torture. 

1214
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:16,440
You guys have been there. 
It's in Omaha in October. 

1215
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:18,960
I mean in. 
August, yeah. 

1216
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:23,840
Yeah, but there's some good 
manufacturing facilities in the 

1217
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,440
mall. 
Well then I expect you to show 

1218
01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:28,480
up. 
Might have to do some tours. 

1219
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,040
I'd have to. 
Do some tours. 

1220
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:34,760
Do some Taylor. 
Yes. 

1221
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:39,800
So I'm not at all paid for any 
of this, but I do go around 

1222
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:43,080
talking to manufacturers about 
even when I interview them, I'm 

1223
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:46,680
like on the podcast, we get off 
the podcast and I'm like, are 

1224
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:48,600
you with next Gen. 
Thank you. 

1225
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:50,640
Thank you. 
Perfect. 

1226
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:55,080
Have people start thinking about
it and we might be the rabble 

1227
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:58,400
rousers because I was told that 
all I did was laugh. 

1228
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:02,640
I'm like, you're right, we are. 
That's how we change the system.

1229
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,600
And the idea that we're looking 
for with change with next Gen. 

1230
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:12,880
is making it better. 
It's right there on our front 

1231
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,960
page. 
We're talking transparency. 

1232
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:16,560
We're not trying to have 
secrets. 

1233
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:20,400
I'm shocked BC that there are 
fresh pet food manufacturers who

1234
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:25,320
are keeping that stuff a secret.
I am very disappointed and that.

1235
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,160
There are a lot. 
Me too. 

1236
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:29,640
I am too. 
Yeah. 

1237
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:33,560
Well, I think I certainly 
enjoyed this conversation is 

1238
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:38,480
helping me to formulate better 
questions for pet food 

1239
01:19:38,480 --> 01:19:40,440
manufacturers that I have on the
show as well. 

1240
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:44,080
So I appreciate the two of you 
and for coming and talking and 

1241
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,680
having this discussion and 
having it in front of a large 

1242
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:49,960
audience. 
Absolutely. 

1243
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:53,120
You 2 are awesome. 
I appreciate you both. 

1244
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:57,200
I of course will have both of 
your profiles, LinkedIn, the 

1245
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:00,480
show notes check out and I. 
And just because we're here, 

1246
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,840
Doctor Kathy does do 
consultation still, right? 

1247
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,240
Yeah, I, I have, I have two 
hats. 

1248
01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:10,920
One is the trade association and
the other is healthy 

1249
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:15,760
possibilities with a paw. 
And I don't care what you call 

1250
01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,680
me for, if you want help and 
guidance, it always starts with 

1251
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,720
fresh food, which is why I run 
the trade association because 

1252
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:24,840
that fresh food needs to be 
available. 

1253
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:29,240
You can't get good health 
without quality food. 

1254
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:34,080
Oh wait, it's right there. 
You're absolutely right and BC's

1255
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,680
wife Kat has the Ninja groomer, 
which obviously if you're in 

1256
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,200
Indiana that's something you can
check out, but if you are not in

1257
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:43,680
Indiana you can also check out 
her socials because that is so 

1258
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:44,480
fun. 
Awesome. 

1259
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:47,680
Post Follow the Ninja Groomer. 
Awesome post. 

1260
01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:50,840
Yes, All right, you guys, thank 
you so much for being here. 

1261
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:53,640
I think this was an excellent, 
excellent chat and I hope that 

1262
01:20:53,640 --> 01:20:56,680
it helps people make better 
decisions about pet food as 

1263
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:58,960
well. 
So with that, I'm going to go 

1264
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:02,200
ahead and end for this week. 
You guys have a great rest of 

1265
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:03,640
your day. 
Give your pets some extra love 

1266
01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:06,360
from myself, Kathy and BC this 
week. 

1267
01:21:06,440 --> 01:21:07,240
Talk to you next week.