1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,800 Hey there, it's Jess. If you're new here, I'm a 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,600 certified professional canine nutritionist, raw nutrition 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,720 certified for dogs and cats, a holistic pet health coach, the 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,040 founder of Wild Wellness Pet, and the host of the Pet 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,680 Parenting Reset podcast that you're listening to right now, 6 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,000 where every pet deserves the absolute best and every pet 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,480 parent is welcome. Learn from the best holistic and 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,880 integrative experts in veterinary medicine and 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,160 nutrition every Tuesday right here on this podcast. 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,960 Or get individualized help with your pet through one-on-one 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,840 consultations and take a deep dive into the root cause with 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,840 the Wild Wellness Bioenergetics at Home testing kit. 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,880 It's time to rethink how we raise our pets. 14 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,560 A reset to naturally healthy dogs and cats. 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,720 If you've been feeling like there has to be something more, 16 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:58,240 something better, a better way to raise healthier pets, welcome 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,920 to the pet parenting reset. Welcome back pet parent. 18 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,720 Today's episode is you guessed it, we're talking about pet food 19 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,400 again. I have a guest today who has 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,640 been a pet industry strategist, product developer, He's a 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,920 podcast host. He has over 3 decades of hands 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,640 on experience in pet nutrition, manufacturing, distribution, 23 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,760 regulatory compliance, all of the things that we talk about 24 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,080 all the time. But what's really interesting to 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,920 me is that he also also represents brands in the UK and 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,400 the European Union as well as the United States. 27 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:39,800 So he has a pretty big world view of what's going on with the 28 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,800 pet industry at large. So Clayton Payne, thank you so 29 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,800 much for being here with us on the Pet Parenting Reset. 30 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,960 How are you doing? Fantastic. 31 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,160 Thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it. 32 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,680 Yeah. So I'm just really, really 33 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:58,040 interested in kind of your view of pet food in general, but the 34 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:03,480 pet industry at large. Because I, you know, was I, when 35 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,400 I, we finally connected, some mutual friends of ours were 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,919 like, no, you really need to talk to him. 37 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,520 And I was like, OK, what's it doing? 38 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,880 Yeah. I mean, look, I think, I think 39 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,800 like being around as long as I have. 40 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:28,040 So like I've been doing this like professionally since I was 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:33,800 18, but also I, I grew up in a pet store. 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,960 I've seen the industry evolve. I've worked on multiple 43 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,840 continents with, with the, with different companies, but I've 44 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,080 worked in manufacturing, I've worked in distribution, 45 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,360 marketing, new product development. 46 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,680 And look, my, my thing is, is that I've actually, you get a 47 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:53,440 little bit cynical, I guess, because I always say to people 48 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,480 like pet food is 90% marketing, 10% substance most of the time. 49 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:03,360 And I'm always pointing out claims to people I know and 50 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,360 going, you know, and this sort of stuff. 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:13,440 So, and look, it's one of those things that I feel like, and 52 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,040 especially, especially for the people who really care, like, 53 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,840 you know, we really want to call them pet parent 2.0 or like, you 54 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,040 know, let's say the high educated crowd or whatever you 55 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,760 want to call them. I feel like knowing the right 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,720 questions is half the battle. Because I feel like there's 57 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,560 there's a little bit of like a disconnect where people talk 58 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,320 about certain things all the time and they they highlight 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,560 certain parts of the industry which they see as problematic. 60 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,120 But then there's other things which completely dip under the 61 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:47,080 radar and also marketing claims that are just what they are. 62 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,520 They're just marketing sort of fluff and they might be true, 63 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,840 but they're they're kind of irrelevant to the whole whole 64 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,240 thing. So I just for me, I I just like, 65 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,840 I do like talking about it. I mean, look, as you know, I 66 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,640 have my own podcast, but I kind of let other people do the 67 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,200 talking on my own podcast. So I kind of, I don't really get 68 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,920 too out of my pram. So it that's why it's kind of 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,120 interesting to come on and chat with you, to be honest, because 70 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,440 I'm more like in the background moaning and like grumbling and 71 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,040 going, well, you know, Yeah. So. 72 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,079 Yeah, yeah. Well, those are the best 73 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:24,640 episodes, right? When like I for me as a host, if 74 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,400 I'm sitting back and listening most of the time, like those are 75 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,320 the best podcasts, the ones where I'm having to fill in so 76 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,240 much information. I'm like, this is great. 77 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,560 I love talking. I I love talking, but it's not 78 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,280 the point. It's just not the point. 79 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,920 So. OK, one of the things, well, you 80 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,680 said so many things in there and I have so many questions, but 81 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,080 one of the things that I do want to say to kind of jump start 82 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:55,640 this is I saw this the other day on a content creator that I 83 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,400 follow on TikTok. He said that he primarily, like, 84 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,280 he grew up in the UK, That's where he lives. 85 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,240 And he has come to the States a number of times as a tourist. 86 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,560 And this was the first time he came to the States to like, live 87 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,520 alongside somebody. And he was just like, I expect 88 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,360 to be marketed to constantly when I'm here as a tourist, when 89 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,040 I'm in New York City, when I'm in Las Vegas, when I'm doing the 90 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,600 things. But he's like just living my 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,480 everyday life. I am astonished at every breath 92 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,600 you take. Somebody is marketing something 93 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:32,120 to you in the United States. And I'm curious because you are 94 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,600 all over the place, do you see it that way as well? 95 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,400 Is it just as bad where you are or the the markets you're you're 96 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,880 in in the UK and the EU? Like how do you do you see the 97 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,360 US being different in any way? So let me talk about this from 98 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,840 an industry, pet industry perspective, OK? 99 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,400 Just because I think it's probably more relevant, I think 100 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,920 like yes, first of all, to your question, but I'll tell you why 101 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,880 the US is a massive pay to play market like so if you are a 102 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,680 small band and why, why innovation gets through in 103 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:14,240 Europe more than it gets through in America is because in the UK 104 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,640 you can get traction on your products without having a stack 105 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,320 of money in the bank. And the US is just such an 106 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,720 expensive market to operate in, like geographically, like 107 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,520 logistically and just competitively, like the big 108 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,560 companies have got so much money here. 109 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:40,160 And look, you know, everyone's addicted to Amazon, they're 110 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,560 addicted to chewy.com, etcetera. And they're all pay to play 111 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,160 environments and heavily. So if I'm launching a brand in 112 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,840 the US on Amazon and they want decent traction, I say, look, we 113 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:55,960 need the marketing budget for Amazon alone of around $10,000 a 114 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,800 month to get proper traction. In the UK. 115 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,280 You can do that with a 10th of that money. 116 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:08,720 And so it takes things from a realm of like you need to have 117 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,360 $120,000 in your account to 10,000. 118 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,680 And look, $10,000 is in the realms of most sort of 119 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,640 entrepreneurial young business people, 120,000, that's the 120 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,120 price of a house, you know, and that, and that's like seed money 121 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,280 that's just to get it going. That's without the logistics 122 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,840 costs, you know, and like no guarantee of success. 123 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,960 And so the marketing here is just far stronger in the US is 124 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,320 far stronger because you know, the nature of the of the 125 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,000 environment is just so pay to play. 126 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,880 So you have to be clever with your marketing. 127 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,800 You have to be consistent and you have to put loads of it, 128 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,000 loads of it in because again, the American market's so 129 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,800 important. And I think when you then go to, 130 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,920 let's say, smaller markets, you don't get pummelled in the same 131 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,800 way. So if like I grew up in Ireland 132 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,560 and Ireland, no one cares about Ireland. 133 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,000 It's like, it's like 5 million people living on a rock at the 134 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,960 edge of the Atlantic. You know, it's it's not like an 135 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,960 exciting market for for companies, not like the USI 136 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,680 mean, if you've got 5 million people, you know, you could have 137 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,560 that in a small state, you know, and, and one that's 138 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,320 interconnected with everything else. 139 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:28,400 So it, it's, it is a very market heavy environment, but again, 140 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,159 it's because it has to be for businesses and it's, it's 141 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:34,919 uncomfortable, it's an uncomfortable truth. 142 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:39,440 And it it means that everybody's working overtime to try and get 143 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:41,880 get some kind of traction. What? 144 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,840 How does that translate to like the average pet parent just 145 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:50,920 trying to raise their pet and buy them decent quality 146 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,840 products, be a good pet? Like how does that translate do 147 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,520 you think? So again, because it's a money 148 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,200 driven environment, it's not a quality driven environment 149 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,280 unfortunately and it's a margin driven environment because 150 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,840 again, if you're spending a lot of money on marketing the the 151 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,400 cost, the the price of the product at the beginning stage 152 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,200 has to be lower. So my, like, me and my brother, 153 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:23,520 we always used to argue growing up and it was like, let's say 22 154 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,320 brands of dog food and you're like, they're the same price, 155 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,000 but this one's rubbish. Why is this one rubbish? 156 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,320 And yeah, we sell more of this. And it was like, well, OK, you 157 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,840 know, if, if the cost of a bag of dog food is, let's say 158 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,760 argument's sake, $100, you know, there's margins. 159 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,880 The margins for everyone may, may be similar, but the cost of 160 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,560 the product needs to suffer because the, you know, the 161 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:50,560 marketing money needs to be there to promote it because that 162 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:52,320 then becomes part of the cost of the product. 163 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:56,680 So for pet parents, it means that you've got to work so much 164 00:09:56,680 --> 00:10:00,520 harder in the US market to find something that is good. 165 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,560 That and there's other, yeah, we can go into transparency issues 166 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,120 as we go along. But then that's when you get 167 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,480 like marketing claims which are nonsense transparency issues in 168 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,520 terms of ingredients, how things are put together, like what is 169 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,640 good and what isn't good is really hard. 170 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,280 And look, people always say to me like, let's say from the UK 171 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,560 and the EU, like when they look at American products and go, oh, 172 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:26,480 this is one of the top selling products in the US and they're 173 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,560 like, it's rubbish, it's rubbish. 174 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,800 It sells for a lot of money. And you're like, yeah, but have 175 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,080 you got $50,000 a month to put in advertising on ecommerce 176 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,440 platforms to push your product to the to the fore? 177 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,160 Probably not, because your product is actually higher in 178 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,040 quality. And then the price point once 179 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,200 you've put that on is going to be much, much higher than 180 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,400 competition. Whereas you're trying to sell at 181 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,480 the same price as an inferior product. 182 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:52,440 But it's a pay to play environment. 183 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:57,160 So pet parents, if they really are educated on what they've got 184 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,200 to work, so much harder to find the right product. 185 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,680 So you mentioned a couple of times about marketing claims. 186 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:08,040 Can you dive into that a little bit? 187 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:11,760 What what you are referring to when you're like these marketing 188 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,880 claims are rubbish. OK, so I know, like when we 189 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,960 spoke on the phone before, yeah, you mentioned to me like human, 190 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,640 human ingredients. Yeah, human food. 191 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,000 Like maybe the human ingredients factory. 192 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,360 Yeah, people love that here. Yeah. 193 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,640 Do you know what it means? Nothing. 194 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,040 It means nothing. It's like the most irrelevant 195 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,920 thing going because again, if you look at human food and pet 196 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,960 food #1 let's say you have, let's say, meat, for example, 197 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,720 it's all slower than the same warehouse, right? 198 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,840 And then there's a number of different procedural things 199 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,840 which can happen to turn something from human food to pet 200 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,400 food exclusively. And that can be separation at 201 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,240 the point of slaw or it can be separation like literally just 202 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,400 from the cold store it's being kept in to, to where it gets 203 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,520 shipped to. And a lot of it's to do with 204 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,440 licensing. So again, if you've got like a, 205 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:14,280 a licensed food factory, the FDA will regulate in the USA human 206 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,800 food factory and A and A and a feed factory. 207 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,120 The regulations for me are the same, same temperature stories, 208 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,320 same hygiene requirements, same bacterial load requirements. 209 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,280 It's just what's that building regulated for? 210 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,720 So for the actual consumer, it makes no difference. 211 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,040 It's, it's a, it's just a gimmicky claim. 212 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,400 Like it, it's human food ingredients. 213 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,920 Because I think like when you say it was like, well, is it, 214 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,520 you know, we should be feeding more off cuts and that sort of 215 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,000 stuff to our dogs or stuff we wouldn't necessarily eat. 216 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:55,720 And actually like that particular claim doesn't 217 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,760 actually influence that at all. I think something can be human 218 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:07,160 food, organic pasture, raised, regeneratively farmed, 219 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:15,280 mechanically deboned meat and be utter rubbish for your pet like 220 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,720 because like, and then it could be used like it could be like 221 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,640 put like used with emulsifiers like carrageenan or who are gum 222 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,360 or locust bean. So then turn it into a loaf. 223 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,120 And it's still all of those things. 224 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,520 It's still human food ingredients, it's still organic, 225 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,160 it's still pasteurized. So one is process and the other 226 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,560 one is the genesis of it, or the the origin story, the paperwork 227 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,880 and the yeah, the backups that it was, if that makes sense. 228 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,720 And then one is the actual product. 229 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,360 Because you're buying all of these things doesn't mean you're 230 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,400 getting primuscle meat. It doesn't mean you're getting, 231 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,400 you know, quality processing. Like you can literally be 232 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,000 getting of meat that's been scraped off the bone, you know, 233 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,160 or gizzards or connective tissues or trim or all of these 234 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,520 things which are nutritionally completely inferior. 235 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,920 And again, on the packaging, all of those products I've just 236 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,080 mentioned will can all be claimed as freshly prepared 237 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,080 whatever. So if it's if it's beef, all of 238 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,000 these things can be freshly prepared beef. 239 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,440 In terms of pet food packaging, not true. 240 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,520 In terms of human food packaging, then pet food 241 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,760 packaging, 100% the only thing that has you have as a variance 242 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,840 is mechanically rendered mate. And again, like there's a 243 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,400 there's an understanding loss between people understand the 244 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400 difference between mechanically rendered, mechanically deboned 245 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,120 like muscle, mate, trim, connective tissue and what all 246 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:59,160 of those things meet number one, in terms of how good they are 247 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,680 for your pet, what that actually means in terms of digestibility, 248 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,120 in terms of oxidation and in terms of amino acids. 249 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,000 But then yeah, it's there's a but all of these things sound 250 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,640 the same. Mechanically rendered meat is 251 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,440 the is the classic meat and animal derivatives, which 252 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,520 everybody knows is a bad thing, but mechanically deep boned, 253 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,120 that's a different process. And that can that can qualify as 254 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,800 meat, even though, so it the way I sort of explain it is like a 255 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,760 mechanically rendered is the stuff like you've seen like the 256 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,360 strawberry milkshake style chicken coming out of the out of 257 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:36,840 the pipes, right? Everyone's saying that. 258 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,200 So that's your mechanically rendered meat. 259 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,840 So that's high pressure, like everything put in meat bone, 260 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,840 like all the like what what was left of the car was put in 261 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,880 crushed and sent through and it goes pink because it's high in 262 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,680 bone content. So I think it's the calcium if 263 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:59,760 the calcium is is always over .15% because even though they 264 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,560 extract the bone, there's still a high level of bone in it. 265 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,760 That dash like your Frankfurt on me. 266 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:09,920 Now that can be human grade. Yeah, that pink marsh can be 267 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,440 human grade because again, we Frankfurt as that's human food. 268 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,520 We don't think for a second, well, it's human food must be 269 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,040 good, right? And then you have the 270 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,800 mechanically deboned and that's more your cheese, but like your 271 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,640 burger meat or your chicken Nuggets. 272 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,560 And then you have your muscle knee. 273 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,640 And then you also have things like trim, which again trim and 274 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,680 it's fine to have some trim like it's fine to have some of this 275 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,880 connective tissue, but connective tissue has no natural 276 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,600 is very low in in tryptophan, very low in lysine, like very 277 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,200 poor amino acids. It's all high, high fat. 278 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,960 And again, it all flies under the radar in terms of what we 279 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,800 actually get when we when we get our, our dog's food. 280 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,760 And again, look, there's a lot of raw food food companies out 281 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:06,599 there claiming to be 100% beef or 100% this or 80801010 or 6025 282 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,440 ten or whatever they're going for. 283 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,200 But they're using high levels of connective tissue, high levels 284 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:19,400 of mechanically deep butter meat, like so very, very subpar. 285 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,000 And look, you can tell it just by looking at it. 286 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,200 You know, if you've ever picked up a raw dog food and it looks 287 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:29,480 like a putty, you know, kind of it's kind of like a gunge. 288 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,640 That means there's no connect, there's no connective, there's 289 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:39,960 no structurally integral meat in that, in that in that food. 290 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,200 So you're talking about very low quality. 291 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,560 But again, you can use words like organic, you know, organic 292 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,760 grass fed, all these different human grade, blah blah blah. 293 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,520 And none of those claims are wrong. 294 00:17:52,560 --> 00:18:00,280 They're just meaningless. So it OK there are you said 295 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,960 earlier, there are so many questions that a pet parent is 296 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:09,960 going to have to ask to be able to figure out like what they're 297 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,040 actually feeding their pet or to qualify a new pet food, if 298 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,000 they're going to look for a pet food or what are some of those 299 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,040 questions that you wish pet parents were asking? 300 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,960 So first of all, I'd like to see industry do it not not not have 301 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,760 to rely on pet parents to do it because I think that this is 302 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,800 something that flies too much under the radar for my liking. 303 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:44,080 But if you're going to ask, you should say things like what's 304 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,280 the, what's the level of like in this? 305 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,520 Let's say you're using a raw food, say what's, what's the 306 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,160 collagen meat or hydroxyproline levels in this food? 307 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,400 What is the fat content compared to the the protein? 308 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,160 Because this will give you a real indication like the 309 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,920 hydroxyproline amount. So hydroxyproline basically 310 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,160 connective tissues about 13 1/2% of hydroxyproline and it will 311 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,240 give you an idea of the quality of meat that's in that food. 312 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,600 So if you, if it's a very high hydroxy praline level, like I 313 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,560 think normal meat is like 2 to 3%, but like connective tissue 314 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,280 is around 13%. If you've got a high level on 315 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,840 that, you will basically know that you're getting a raw food, 316 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:39,160 which is low quality. But I would like to say to them, 317 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,520 what cuts of meat to use because again, freshly prepared beef, 318 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,480 that's not a cut. You wouldn't go into a 319 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,920 supermarket and say, yeah, pick up some hamburger meat and say, 320 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,040 ah, this is the finest beef they have in the in the supermarket. 321 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,200 Ask them what what is actually in this? 322 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,000 Because again, look, everything is price dependent. 323 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,840 If you're if you're paying low money for something, you can 324 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,520 pretty much guarantee you're getting. 325 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,160 Yeah, not not the best quality meat, but when people are paying 326 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,040 high amounts of money per heated per pound for products, that's 327 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,960 when they should be asking what is the actual trim to trim and 328 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,360 deboned meat ratio to like muscle meat. 329 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,800 Because again, these things matter because again, it's it's 330 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,960 how it digests. I mean, you know, yourself, if 331 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,040 you were to eat a pound of steak or a hamburger, which weighed a 332 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,560 pound, it's going to react very differently in your system. 333 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,960 It's going to take a lot longer to digest and will be a lot more 334 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,280 satiating the steak than than the hamburger. 335 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,000 It's going to have a lot less fat. 336 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,640 So again, asking these questions, you're saying beef, 337 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,280 but what does beef actually mean? 338 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,680 Because again, it's like, I don't think there's when when we 339 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,440 look at humans who we ask these questions all the time. 340 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,760 But I feel like we have a blind spot in the pet industry for 341 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,200 this, of actually really questioning what these things 342 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,680 really mean. Well, it, it's built in because 343 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,960 the blind spot, because I, I've started going to AFCO meetings 344 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:17,240 and it's, it's intentional. Like they don't want people to 345 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,440 know what's in the food. Not 100% like again, because 346 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,560 look, it's margin. Look, the price of mechanically 347 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,560 rendered meat is half the price of mechanically boned and 348 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,720 mechanically debone meat and trim is less than half the price 349 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,120 of full muscle meat. So again, it's you know, and 350 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,800 look, I'm not saying that there isn't use cases for it or that 351 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,760 it's all evil. I'm not saying that at all 352 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,640 because again, there is use cases for it. 353 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,640 And there's nothing wrong with a company saying we use, yeah, 40% 354 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,160 muscle meat, 40%, let's say connective tissue based meat. 355 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,160 Like that's fine. I've got no issue with that. 356 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,720 It's just the transparency that bothers me, to be honest. 357 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,880 And look, AFCO and they're just number crunchers. 358 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,800 Like it's it's all number crunching. 359 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,240 It's like, OK, average dog this size needs this. 360 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,600 What's the right sort of amount we need to give them in terms 361 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,440 of, you know, this, this and this? 362 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,120 I mean, look, look at the calcium thing. 363 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:22,400 I mean, calcium can be bone matrix or it can be chunk. 364 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,240 Calcium carbonate is often used in dog food and that's chalk. 365 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,480 You wouldn't feed yourself chalk for your calcium. 366 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,040 But again, it still takes the these theoretical numbers that 367 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:39,160 are in there, you know? So when you say that you would 368 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,880 prefer to see the industry actually be the one answering 369 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,960 these questions, I mean I completely agree with you. 370 00:22:46,360 --> 00:22:50,520 Do you see a way that that can happen or that that will happen? 371 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,360 I, I think it's by pet parents asking the right questions and 372 00:22:54,360 --> 00:23:01,080 pressuring things I think. And again, look, I think the 373 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,760 side of the industry this really effects in, in reality is the 374 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,920 premium end and the premium end people are the more inquisitive. 375 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,280 They are the ones who are looking to do the best possible 376 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,080 job. They're, you know, best thing by 377 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,200 their pets. So actually asking these 378 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,000 questions is actually really important. 379 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,400 And, but, and again, and like, I think just looking beyond the 380 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,360 marketing claims, because again, you know, and also when you use 381 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:29,920 a lot of these marketing claims, seeing it as a little bit of a 382 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,800 red flag as well that you should like, if you're seeing, you 383 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,120 know, human ingredients, like, no, that is nonsense. 384 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,800 And it is a little bit of a red flag because you're really, they 385 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,840 know what the difference is between human ingredients and 386 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,240 pet food ingredients are because they're the ones filling it. 387 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,160 They're the ones doing the duty of care in the, in the, in the 388 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,000 distribution. They're the ones who understand 389 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,560 where it's coming from. They're the one who understand 390 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,280 what that actually means. And if you're using that as a 391 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,040 market and claim, there's something vaguely dishonest 392 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,440 about that already, to be honest, in my opinion. 393 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,960 So the yeah, the marketing claims trying to get past it, I 394 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,160 think for the average pet parent it is difficult here in the 395 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,320 States and that's kind of why I LED with marketing because 396 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:27,200 that's that's always I think we're intentionally set up to 397 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,400 not have the bandwidth to ask the questions and. 398 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,160 I think also we're intentionally drawn down quite a humanistic 399 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,080 role as well where we they talk about. 400 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,960 But I we did, there was market research done in the UK 401 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:50,840 supermarkets as to what 3 words consumers saw as being the most 402 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:56,920 important on dog food and it was natural, wholesome and tasty. 403 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,280 All of which mean nothing. They literally mean nothing. 404 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,200 They're meaningless words. And yet those were the trigger 405 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,000 words. So if you had natural, tasty, 406 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,920 wholesome chicken recipe, that would be far more of a, a drawer 407 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:18,680 to people than, you know, biologically appropriate or, you 408 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,040 know, you know, like, and it was funny actually, because just on 409 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,360 the kibble market, there was a, there was a thing where it was 410 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,240 like there was companies who were doing the whole, we used 411 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,760 60% meat, we used 65% meat, we used 55% meat. 412 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,520 And the buyer for a grocery was talking to me about and he said, 413 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,600 he said, like, these companies don't understand, like no one 414 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,160 wants this information. Like if I said to you, this 415 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,840 chicken nugget was 65% meat, you'd, you'd freak out, wouldn't 416 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,160 you? So when pet parents are seeing 417 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,840 65% meat, they're kind of expecting at least that. 418 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,240 And it's sort of like one of those claims. 419 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,640 They're like, what the hell? You know, it can actually be a 420 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,960 negative to people. Whereas if you don't talk about 421 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,920 it and you just say chicken recipe, natural, wholesome, 422 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:08,680 tasty, that's far more like, yeah, it's far more convincing 423 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,160 for the for the for the pet parent than actually like that 424 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,080 kind of transparency. But that's why I say that the 425 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,240 the messaging has to be for the premium that parent 2.0 top, top 426 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,960 level high information customer. Because I think when you 427 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,640 actually get into the lower, lower information, the actual 428 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,440 information people are looking for is quite, you'd be quite 429 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,200 distressed at how how easily marketed to people are. 430 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,560 Yeah, it it is. I'm not going to lie. 431 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,480 Like I have to remind myself a lot. 432 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,840 I will walk into a store. I actually around this time last 433 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,920 year, I walked into a Walmart for the first time and I don't 434 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,560 know how many years. I just, I'm just not a Walmart 435 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:06,200 shopper and I passed by the pet aisles, which I was not happy 436 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,080 about. Like I was not happy about what 437 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,240 I saw there. I'm always very, very disturbed, 438 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,960 no matter even in grocery stores because I this happened in 439 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,280 grocery stores too in the USI don't know about in other 440 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,160 countries, but the pet food is always right next to the 441 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,160 cleaning supplies. I don't know what this is, but 442 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,400 it's like aisles of cleaning supplies, aisles of pet food are 443 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,040 always right together. And so I can't even I'm a very 444 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,480 sensitive person. I all I smell are the cleaning 445 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,320 supplies. When I'm in the pet tiles, 446 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,800 that's all I'm smelling. And anyway, that's a side note 447 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,720 that just I don't know what that strategy is here in. 448 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,640 The US, it's the same here actually. 449 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,920 Well, I never really thought about it to be honest, but it's 450 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,720 the same. Here and I'm like, to me, I'm 451 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,600 looking at this like, yeah, you put the chemicals next to the 452 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,480 chemicals. I get it right, but. 453 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,760 Yeah. But but the the truth is as well 454 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,520 is that the humanistic trend, it works on every level as well. 455 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,720 So like, while we're talking about, you go into the 456 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,120 supermarket and there's like a bacon rasher which is made of 457 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:14,200 God knows what, like in like some packaging which is full of 458 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,840 full of chemicals and God knows what. 459 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,800 On the one hand, you have that, that humanisation. 460 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,840 But then on the top end, like I say, you have these human food 461 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,480 ingredients, you know, pasture aid, like, you know, like free 462 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,520 range, these sorts of like claims that again, like they're 463 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,960 not, they're not wrong, but they're not like the most 464 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,960 important thing you should be using when deciding. 465 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,240 But they're the things that resonate the hardest. 466 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,800 Because again, if you're if you're told all of those things 467 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,080 just in singularity, you don't have to address the actual cuts 468 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,840 of meat that are in there, the processing technique, the kill 469 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,720 steps, you know, like, you know, any kind of emulsifiers they 470 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,160 might have used to put on them. Like because you're already 471 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,040 you're winning on the bit that actually, you know, if I say to 472 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:09,480 you this, this yeah, this meat has been like finely ground so 473 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,960 that it oxidizes quickly or like chopped. 474 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,720 So like more likely. So there's more cell structure. 475 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,000 So it there's better, you know, there's better release that 476 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,960 digests better. And you know, there's a there's 477 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,440 a lot more amino acids that will can come out, etcetera, 478 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,560 etcetera. That's not exciting for a 479 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,880 consumer, even even a highly like aware one. 480 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,040 But if I say to them it's organic, grass fed human food, 481 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,360 blah, blah, blah, this sounds way more premium. 482 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,600 And again, I think it's just trying to get people to rewrite 483 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,960 the narrative and actually try and fit their human head on. 484 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,960 Because again, the the worst human food wouldn't wash in the 485 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,000 supermarket. You wouldn't walk around and go 486 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,440 pick up some like ground beef and go, oh, like this is great. 487 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,720 This is human food. Do you know what I mean? 488 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,080 This, this wouldn't end. So you'd be looking at the cuts 489 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,840 of meat, you'd be looking at the fat content. 490 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,480 You'd be looking at lots of other things that don't involve 491 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,320 these, like silly claims, to be honest. 492 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,720 So again, it's just trying to get people's heads into, out of 493 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,720 a, a market's dream and eat more into the into the real world. 494 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,720 Yeah. It actually would be nice to be 495 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,920 able to go into a grocery store and have things labeled more 496 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,080 appropriately like an apple be labeled an apple and A and an 497 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,320 apple that has that isn't organic. 498 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,600 That was maybe like they use pesticides on to be labeled like 499 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,040 apple plus pesticides or something like that. 500 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,240 Like that would be really really nice, but I don't. 501 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,280 Think that? Do you know what I've always 502 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,840 wanted? Like again, look, one of my like 503 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,120 annoyance words is the word sustainable? 504 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,040 Like that's a word that annoys the hell out of me because it's 505 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,000 one of those really broad words that means nothing. 506 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,840 Again, I'd like to see like a red light to green light system 507 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,040 on sustainability because like is it? 508 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,080 Because again, what does sustainable mean? 509 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:07,920 Does it mean? What does it? 510 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,960 Mean. Are we saving the planet or are 511 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,640 we just like putting, putting our our plastic bottles in like 512 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,640 a different bin and hoping it goes to the right recycling 513 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,320 center? I mean, do you know what I mean? 514 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,800 There's there's a whole thing of sustainability and yet like 515 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,120 people just jump on the sustainability about because 516 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,480 again, it, it, it can as a second or third buying decision 517 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,560 for people. It kind of it has like little 518 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,800 things that go off and people go, oh, it's sustainable. 519 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,320 That's also great because I like sustainability. 520 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,080 I mean, we all like sustainability. 521 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,240 I don't think anybody's out there going, I hate 522 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,680 sustainability. I'd like to see the planet, you 523 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,400 know, gradually decay. But at the same time, it's 524 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,720 become a marketing claim. It's become an, a meaningless 525 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,160 like platitude that nobody really understands anymore. 526 00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,880 So it's like, do you know what I mean? 527 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,400 I do, yeah, I do. It doesn't. 528 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,280 It doesn't mean anything. It's very objective to the 529 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,960 company putting out the product what sustainability means to 530 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,360 them. Yeah, Yeah. 531 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,120 It's a bit like, I think there was a, a pet food company that 532 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:23,240 moves from plastic tubs. It was like a like a loaf type 533 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,000 product and they went from plastic tubs into like Tetra 534 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,520 packs. And they said that we've done 535 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,880 this for sustainability reasons. These are much more sustainable. 536 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,760 But again, you would have to have broke down each of the 537 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,080 packs individually, removing each layer and putting them in 538 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,080 different bins to get that sustainability difference. 539 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,040 And, and so it's like, is it more sustainable? 540 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,840 I guess if like .1% of people do that, then yeah, it's more 541 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,440 sustainable. But in reality, it's kind of 542 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,200 negligible. But it was a big claim for them. 543 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,200 So yeah, like, that's what I mean. 544 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,840 I think like there's a we, we need to be way more skeptical of 545 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,760 marketing claims and actually look more intensely at end 546 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:19,200 product to be honest. So one of the things that I was 547 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,960 interested in because I, I get to the point where, you know, 548 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,360 people are just so discouraged when they, when they hear a 549 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,400 podcast like this, right? They're so discouraged. 550 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,880 They're like, it's impossible. What am I supposed to do? 551 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,120 You know, I'm raising 3 kids. I've got, you know, two dogs and 552 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,480 a cat and I'm working full time and, you know, all the things 553 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,000 I'm trying to manage a household like how am I supposed to do all 554 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,080 of this? And I get that because life is 555 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:53,400 hard and we have over the decades, we've just outsourced 556 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,400 so much of our power to corporations and to governments 557 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,720 and to all the things that we no longer have the bandwidth to 558 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,280 manage it. And one of the things that 559 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:08,280 people wind up doing is looking for either, you know, these 560 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:14,120 small companies that are doing small batch foods or, or making 561 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,400 it themselves and which, you know, if, if, if they're doing 562 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,000 it, doing a good job and rotating and doing all like 563 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,679 that. There's something to be said 564 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:26,800 about that because you can, you can control it a little bit 565 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,280 better. But one of the things that I 566 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,400 have heard you say is that small batch isn't what we think it is 567 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,480 either. And I'm curious to hear your 568 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,840 thoughts on that. And I'm not saying the company, 569 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,880 I'm talking about the idea like the. 570 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:48,320 The idea of small batch, right? And like, so again, I think 571 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,040 there's like, again, there's an inherent belief that that people 572 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,280 think if it's homemade, if it's small batch, it's going to be 573 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,520 better, right? But again, just to give you like 574 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,200 a human food example, like the the sprinter, Usain Bolt, like 575 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:10,360 world champion, like sprinter in the days leading up to him, like 576 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,000 running, he would always eat McDonald's chicken Nuggets. 577 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,920 And he wasn't eating them because they were quality. 578 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,320 He was eating them because he could understand the safety 579 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,680 standards that are involved because, you know, the like 580 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,200 McDonald's, OK, it's crap. You know, it doesn't taste 581 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,600 great, but it's also very, very safe. 582 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,840 And I think the problem is, is that this isn't a blanket 583 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,040 everybody's small batch because there are people who do great 584 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,720 jobs out there. But just the idea of a small 585 00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:45,360 batch being inherently good is a fallacy. 586 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,880 And there's a lot of things that can go wrong with small batch 587 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,680 because again, you know, if you were to eat dinner at a 588 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,400 different one of your neighbors every night, you know, just 589 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,960 indiscriminately you, you can't tell me that's going to be 590 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,280 better than eating in a chain restaurant every night. 591 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,880 Because again, you're more likely to get an upset stomach 592 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,120 to have something wrong with the food. 593 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,480 Because again, just inherently people when they cook 594 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,680 themselves, they're not using safety protocols. 595 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,400 They're not necessarily storing like the, the, the products 596 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,800 which are going into this at the right temperatures and that sort 597 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,640 of stuff. So again, it's, I give it like, 598 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,680 so let me give an example. Something like bone broth is a 599 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,560 great example of where small batch can go wrong. 600 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,480 So if you are making bone broth, I don't know if you've ever 601 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,080 heard people complaining about shouldn't give bone broth 602 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,120 because of histamine. OK, if you're giving a small 603 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,000 batch bone broth, like say if you're making it yourself rather 604 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,160 than let's say buying from a companies in the UK, we have a 605 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,120 company called Carly which they make, they make bone broth 606 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,840 really high quality, but it's all made in a a human grade 607 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,280 factory where it's everything is made aseptically so there's no 608 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,400 bacteria. The histamine on the bone broth 609 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:15,280 comes from poorly handled bones developing bacteria then being 610 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,800 slow cooked at 90° / a period of time. 611 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,160 They, they, that bacteria growing into histamine. 612 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,440 And then, yeah, basically you never have that kill step 613 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,240 because it's slow cooked. You'll never actually like 614 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,400 heating to high temperature because you don't want to 615 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,880 denature the, the, the collagen and that sort of stuff which is 616 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,520 in there. So then you end up with a high 617 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,480 histamine low. So if you have a doll with 618 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,880 sensitivities, then you can actually have a problem. 619 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,240 And but I'm not saying this is going to be true for most small 620 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:49,320 producers, but there are going to be small producers with these 621 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,720 problems. So actually just thinking 622 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:57,320 inherently dealing with a small producer must be better isn't 623 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,160 actually true. You actually want them to be of 624 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,600 a certain size. Now, like I'm not going go out 625 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,000 and support the biggest of the big companies, but be careful 626 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,120 what you're doing when you're talking about small badge 627 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,480 because you know, it's like eating dinner at somebody in 628 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,520 each of your next door neighbour's house for the next 629 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,920 month. There's I'm not saying that like 630 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,600 everyone's house is going to be bad for you or, or it's going to 631 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,960 make your stomach upset, but I guarantee one of them will 632 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,400 because not everyone is hygienic. 633 00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:32,360 Not everyone fail their safety protocols and a lot of smaller 634 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,640 companies fly under the radar. And especially when you're 635 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,000 making stuff for yourself. Are you following proper kill 636 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,040 steps? Are you following, you know, 637 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,360 like if you can't use a kill step, are you doing things 638 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,680 aseptically? Are you, you know, are you 639 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,360 walking in there with like rubber gloves on and keeping 640 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,720 things frozen to a sort of like to -19° until you can take it 641 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:55,600 out and all this sort of stuff? Like chances are no. 642 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,960 And so you are likely to end up in a situation where you could 643 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:03,600 cause yourself problems by almost trying too hard to 644 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,560 actually like be the best pet parent. 645 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,600 There is a trade off. Like there's plenty of good 646 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,240 companies out there which are doing things properly, which 647 00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:14,960 aren't small batch. And I'm not talking about the 648 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,720 company's small batch because they're not a small company, but 649 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,960 you know what I mean. But like who are, who aren't 650 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,320 doing small batch. But again, if you are using 651 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,360 somebody who is, let's say a small producer, just ask to see 652 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,440 their facilities. Make sure you understand like 653 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,680 what a facility should look like before you start buying from 654 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,360 them because again, you're running a risk. 655 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,360 And there are there is problems for bacterial situations like 656 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,400 look, chicken, chicken can be full of salmonella like you 657 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,200 know, and again, that salmonella if it's not properly killed off. 658 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,520 And if you're using your own oven or a small industrial oven, 659 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,800 is that oven cooking consistently all the way through 660 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,080 because again, like some of them, they'll cook strongly, 661 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,120 strongly in the middle. The ones at the end so you can 662 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,960 test you could have like. Ten of the chicken products from 663 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,640 the middle, no problem. The one at the sides which 664 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,240 didn't really get the full cooking process could be like 665 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:15,320 could make your dog I'll. So again, just I'm not trying to 666 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,920 put anyone off using small companies, but understanding the 667 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,280 difference between making it yourself and actually using a 668 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,400 reputable company who's actually doing things properly is is 669 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,960 actually could actually make a difference to to your dogs 670 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,440 health, long term longevity, that sort of stuff. 671 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,600 And look, it's like anything you can get lucky doing it that way 672 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,600 and you can get unlucky using a big company. 673 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,240 But I'm just saying, just like Vegas odds roll of the dice. 674 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:45,880 That's why you should go to be honest. 675 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,320 All right, Clayton, so a very hot topic that my listeners love 676 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,920 to hear about and hate to hear about is HPP Processing. 677 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:01,200 So what are your thoughts of HPP in the pet industry 678 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,000 specifically? OK. 679 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:10,440 So I think with HPP like, like you have to, I think it's, it 680 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,080 goes down to the safety measures. 681 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,120 And I think like a lot of people don't like the concept of safety 682 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,400 when it comes to pet food because again, there is like the 683 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,800 naturation of the, you know, it affects the protein, it affects 684 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,640 the amino acids, and all of these things are true. 685 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,480 Like HPP does do all of these things. 686 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:35,040 It is there is a a form of damage to the proteins, to the 687 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:42,560 amino acids as a result of HPP, but it's also probably one of 688 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:47,160 the best forms of actually having a kill step in me. 689 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:54,560 And it is a cold step. And again, it's while it is, it 690 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,560 does have an effect on on the protein on the food. 691 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,360 The actual, I would rather like a piece, a piece of muscle mate, 692 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:10,240 which has had HPP sterilisation is still vastly superior to de 693 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:16,560 mechanically debone meat or, you know, collagen covered like 694 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:22,080 sinew, like wrapped sinew, like trim, which hasn't been #1 695 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,520 because the quality of the proteins are going to be better. 696 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,240 The amino acids are going to be stronger. 697 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,000 It's going to be higher in, you know, tryptophan, lysine, 698 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,160 methionine, all these, all this good stuff which you need in, 699 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:38,600 in, in your dog's diet. And you're not going to get the, 700 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:42,120 the, the issues with potential pathogens because again, 701 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,440 especially with things like chicken, salmonella is the one 702 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,240 of the most common bacterial forms on chicken. 703 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,680 And yeah, you could take, you can, you can take that risk. 704 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:58,000 But again, like, why? Why would you, if you can use a, 705 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,880 you know, when we, you know, we use HPP to compress things like 706 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,920 juices and we see that as being a good thing. 707 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,400 We don't say, Oh yeah, but it's destroying the integrity of the 708 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,560 juices. OK, it's it's yeah, a little 709 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,640 bit. But also we're doing it because 710 00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:19,680 we don't want to get ill. And again, you can like it's a 711 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,800 it's a Vegas odds thing is that eventually if you keep not doing 712 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,760 something, if you keep avoiding process, you, you might get away 713 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,800 with it 10 * 50 * 100 times. But is it worth it that once in 714 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,800 a while the way actually like it can cause a real issue, a real, 715 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:40,760 you know, Goa issue or, you know, makes your dog quite I'll 716 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,960 just because you worry about a little bit of like damage to 717 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:46,960 your proteins and your amino acids. 718 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,880 When actually what you should be looking at first is you know 719 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:55,600 what what is actually these, what is it? 720 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,520 What is the actual type of meat? But also grinding meat to 721 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:04,120 finally increases oxidation like that's far more damaging to the 722 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,240 protein, to the cell structure of the meat than HPP ever is. 723 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:15,560 So I can see it from both sides. But when people's it's become a 724 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,840 buzzword where people are like HPP bad and then other people 725 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,280 are there going, no, no, it's not too bad. 726 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,160 It's not too bad. And it's like, OK, it's kind of 727 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,040 I see it more as a necessary evil rather than a good versus 728 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,480 bad thing. Because again, yeah, in an ideal 729 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,400 world, if there was a process that didn't damage the proteins 730 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,800 at all and everything was absolutely intact, use that. 731 00:44:39,240 --> 00:44:43,200 My, my, to my knowledge, there's 10 times worse things that are 732 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,080 already happening in the industry with food. 733 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,960 Like, so like I say, you know, emulsifying being the worst, but 734 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,920 going down to like the bone, like mechanical deboning, you 735 00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:03,640 know, high levels of like, of like, you know, like meat, which 736 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:08,080 has no nutritional value, like a high grinding, which is, you 737 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,440 know, high level like fine grinding, which causes 738 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,560 oxidation. These are all worse than HPP in 739 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,200 the scale of things. Not to say that HPP is like 740 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,840 doesn't have an effect, because it it genuinely does. 741 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,320 But it's not. It's not if you're looking for 742 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,360 problems, it's not. It should never be top of your 743 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,600 list. So I, I'm sure you've seen a lot 744 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,480 of trends come and go over your career. 745 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:43,960 One of the things that we're seeing, and I'm not necessarily 746 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,080 mad about it, but I'm just curious how you're viewing it. 747 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:53,600 A lot of the, all of the big companies here in the US are, 748 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,360 and I know in Australia too, I think, or I've heard of it in 749 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,240 Australia, they are all in some way, shape or form entering the 750 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:08,920 fresh pet food space, whether that is cooked or raw or 751 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,520 sometimes both. How? 752 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,400 How do you see this going? What is? 753 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,000 What is your viewpoint and opinion on? 754 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,240 On so yeah, well, look, we've seen the same like the UK is 755 00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:26,160 seeing the same as Usus is more advanced than the UK. 756 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,440 So I think I want to say 20% is now why if we're gently cooked 757 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,240 or frozen raw something like that. 758 00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:35,840 The UK U.S. market, I think in the UK it's around 10 in Europe 759 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,760 it's still under 5. So the US is, but we're all 760 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:46,760 following EU s S trend. Personally, I like it like I'm, 761 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,600 I am naturally holistic. I do, you know, I would say I'm 762 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,080 not a vet, but if I was, I'd be integrative. 763 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,840 I believe in trying to use as many natural things as possible 764 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,080 because that's going to cause less problems. 765 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,880 And like, look, I've seen manufacturing technology up 766 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,040 close. I've seen how they make loaf 767 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,840 like wet food, you know, like, you know, turning it into marsh 768 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,120 and squirting it into packets and that sort of stuff. 769 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,120 And it's not, it's not great. So if you, there's a process 770 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,640 where you're doing things better, that's great. 771 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:27,120 But I think it's just important that like with any new industry, 772 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,440 there's going to be good actors and bad actors. 773 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,200 And for me, it's about making sure you find the good actors 774 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,560 that are out there and look, there's plenty of them. 775 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:38,920 And look, that's what I say. Look, there's some of the 776 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,560 questions. I, I said like, you know, asking 777 00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,800 what, what are the cuts of meat going in this? 778 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,040 Where is it coming from? Is it, is it mechanically 779 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,880 deboned? Like what percentage is 780 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,840 mechanically deboned? Because again, like a lot of 781 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,560 these companies, this is what they're using, you know, and the 782 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,000 reality is, is the pet food prices are lower than human food 783 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,480 prices. And so there is a lot more 784 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,400 mechanically deboned and in the in the, in the pet food 785 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,120 industry. Now we also have things like 786 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,920 laying chickens and that sort of stuff which goes into pet food, 787 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,640 which is good quality. We wouldn't eat it personally 788 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,640 because, you know, our average like chicken is cold at about 789 00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,040 six weeks, whereas the laying hen is 18 weeks. 790 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,360 So if you were to try and find it really tough and really 791 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,840 strong tasting. But again, look, just asking 792 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,320 people what what is the meat that's actually being used? 793 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,920 Because just saying chicken or just saying beef or just saying 794 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:39,280 lamb, the kind of cop out terms and like, and, and if they say 795 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,600 to you we're we use on them 20% mechanically debomo, we use 10% 796 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,760 trim and you know, sinew and that sort of stuff. 797 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,280 And we use 50% muscle meat. That's fine because there is a 798 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,680 trade off. But again, it's just 799 00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,800 transparency, you know, and just making sure that the companies 800 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,040 you are dealing with aren't firing lots of nonsense out. 801 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,160 Yeah, it's really important to be honest. 802 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,520 So. But again, the problem is, is 803 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:16,000 because the people buying gently cooked raw foods, they are the 804 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,480 people who are more engaged, more aware, want to do the best. 805 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,320 And I think it's really important for those people to 806 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,960 really understand what doing the best actually is and not just 807 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,560 being swept up on a bit of a marketing stream with these 808 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,080 guys. Because look, I feed raw and I 809 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,120 feed gently cooked. So I have 5 dogs, 2 are on 810 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:41,080 gently cooked, free on raw. I know the provenance of those 811 00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:42,680 products. I know the companies that make 812 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:44,280 it. I've been to their facilities. 813 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,280 So I understand. And look, I know that I'm in a 814 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,320 weirdly privileged position. But if a company, if you can 815 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,040 phone a company and they'll ask you and they'll tell you the 816 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,600 answer, I think that's good enough because most most 817 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,120 companies if they are dodgy about it, they just want to 818 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,120 answer the question and those the companies you should buy off 819 00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,680 of. Yeah, I can see how in the next 820 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:11,040 5 to 10 years possibly, you know, these people that are 821 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:18,640 maybe a brand loyalist or just kind of starting to dabble in 822 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,520 fresh food because these larger brands are coming into the 823 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,920 market. In the next 5 to 10 years, these 824 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:29,320 same pet parents might start finding the smaller companies 825 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,880 that we all know and love right now. 826 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,760 How do you think that's going to affect them moving forward? 827 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,960 Like, they're going to, in my opinion, have to be even more 828 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:45,360 transparent than they are now. But how do you from your point 829 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,240 of view, how do you see their role? 830 00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,320 In the. World changing. 831 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,840 Yeah, So I think it is more important for smaller brands to 832 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,400 be more transparent because look, I think we've already seen 833 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,560 noise from Royal Cannon going into the fresh, the gently 834 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:05,200 cooked market. Farmer's Dog is an absolutely 835 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:11,920 enormous brand in the US and like nobody likes to see their 836 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,800 their sales eroded. And so, you know, you're Nestle 837 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:19,120 Purinas, your General Mills, your Mars Pet foods, they're 838 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:20,520 going to need a piece of that action. 839 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,120 And so they're going to come out with products that are going to 840 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,080 look similar, maybe not be as good. 841 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,680 Maybe they will, I don't know, like I'm, I'm assuming because 842 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,360 they'd like to spend a lot more on marketing than they do on the 843 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,960 product in the packet. But they also have better buying 844 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,240 chains. They buy products for a much 845 00:51:38,240 --> 00:51:39,600 lower amount. So again, they're hard to 846 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,040 compete with from that perspective. 847 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,200 But these smaller companies to stay relevant, yeah, 848 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,720 transparency is key. And actually, This is why I'm 849 00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:52,520 kind of passionate about talking to companies about this 850 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:54,960 transparency thing, because if they want to safeguard their 851 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:59,880 future transparency now, when you don't need to be transparent 852 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,440 is going to be the thing that saves you down the line. 853 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,840 Like be 100% transparent about your process, about what you're 854 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,520 using, about your kill steps, about everything you're doing, 855 00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,240 because that's going to save you when, when the big boys come, 856 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,120 come after your market, which they will do, you know, like 857 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:19,280 they'll always be there. And if they're not, they'll, 858 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,960 they might buy one or two, you know, they might change the 859 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,560 recipes, whatever. That's it's kind of a, but they 860 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,000 will come after that market share because they won't sit 861 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,600 back. I mean, 20% is already 862 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:36,000 phenomenal and as it grows, the the pressure for those companies 863 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,840 to eat back into that market is going to really affect smaller 864 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,760 companies. So they need to safeguard 865 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,160 themselves now. And so it's not, it's about 866 00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,400 looking after the pet parents, but also looking after 867 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,440 themselves and their own long term future and being open and 868 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,040 honest about what they do in the market. 869 00:52:53,720 --> 00:52:57,680 Yeah, it's that put put your oxygen mask on 1st, right? 870 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,760 Yeah, yeah. What? 871 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,840 Don't don't. Yeah, don't wait until the 872 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,120 nuclear balls of bombs are falling to build a bunker, you 873 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,040 know, do you know what I mean? It's sort of like be aware of 874 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:14,520 like every industry is the same, you know, small companies get 875 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,800 things going like private equity money builds it up and the big 876 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,280 guys come in and try and re dominate. 877 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,920 But again, they don't need to test the market. 878 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,080 The market gets validated by someone else, but you will get 879 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,960 swamped and you will get taken out if you don't have a strong 880 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,480 position in the market. So building that loyalty, 881 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,400 setting the rules of the game now for the future are going to 882 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,600 be important. Because again, if you can set 883 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,120 the rules of the game and the transparency now, that's the way 884 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:47,160 you're going to win. Because again, look, my belief 885 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,560 is, is that at least 50% of the companies out there doing this 886 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,480 are doing it the right way and doing it for the right reasons. 887 00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,600 And the ones who aren't, you know, I don't care about them. 888 00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:04,920 So but they, they do need to, they do need to think about the 889 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,160 future because again, they're in like a a bit of a golden age at 890 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,400 the moment where they're all just competing with each other. 891 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,040 But once the, and this is what I say, America's a lot worse than 892 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:18,640 this for the different the UK. But once the the big money moves 893 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,640 in, it will become very, very dodgy for them, you know? 894 00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:30,200 It becomes very dodgy for pet parents as well because it's 895 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:35,960 just like we to me, I feel like in this tiny little niche corner 896 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:41,200 of the pet industry where we're like, you know, demanding 897 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,440 transparency and we want the best for our pets. 898 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,880 It we a lot of us feel like we have a good handle on 899 00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,560 understanding what we need to understand to make the best 900 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,920 decisions for our pets. And we're in always continuing 901 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,360 to learn so that we can continue to make the best decisions for 902 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,360 our pets. But it is going to muddy the 903 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,200 waters for sure the more these. Yeah. 904 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,880 And look, I think this is, This is why putting that little bit 905 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,200 of extra effort in matters like when you're looking at a 906 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:21,440 supplement, three ingredients, if if like if there's more than 907 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,800 five or six ingredients, then probably don't buy it. 908 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,360 You don't need to be a genius with this stuff. 909 00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,120 And like, look, the more transparency, the better. 910 00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,640 So if you know, if you're looking on a a bag of meat and 911 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,640 it's telling you this is made with, you know, heart chicken, 912 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,520 like, you know, heart, liver, whatever, you know, muscle meat, 913 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,880 etcetera, that's fine. They're they're open, they're 914 00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,200 transparent. You don't need to be an expert. 915 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,520 You just need to know that the company you're buying from is 916 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:56,760 being open and honest with you and not hiding it behind, you 917 00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,720 know, legally protected ingredients, which you can do. 918 00:56:00,720 --> 00:56:03,720 Like look, when it when it comes to ingredients, I can put 919 00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:07,360 whatever I want on pet food. Like we reason I can put freshly 920 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,920 prepared meat. I can put, if I'm saying beef, I 921 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,520 can put freshly prepared beef, I can put beef, or I can put beef 922 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,720 trim, or I could put beef. Beef, yeah, like beef from let's 923 00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:19,320 say shoulder from back from whatever. 924 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,000 I can be really specific if I want, but I can also be really 925 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:27,200 unspecific. So trying to get people to trust 926 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,360 those ones that are really specific is a good start because 927 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,640 again, if the more people are hiding, the worse it is for the 928 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,760 consumer. And the pet at the end of the 929 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:37,600 day. Potentially. 930 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,040 And the pet for sure, I mean. Yeah. 931 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:45,520 Obviously, but obviously. What is there anything else that 932 00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,040 we haven't covered that you're like, I really wanted to talk 933 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,720 about this today? I could like bleat on about all 934 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:55,280 kinds of stuff, to be honest. I'm, I'm a bit like that, to be 935 00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,040 honest. I, I think I'm, you know, it's 936 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,000 just, I think just being in the industry for a long time, I 937 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,800 think, and I've never been a like a corporate guy, to be 938 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:06,880 honest. I was always working with 939 00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,880 independence and smaller producers and like even now, 940 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,320 even though I have worked for corporates as a consultant, I 941 00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:18,040 tend to prefer working for smaller companies because I like 942 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:25,960 to sleep at night generally. But I think, yeah, I think it's 943 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:33,080 really like, I say, I think in terms of like, yeah, looking, 944 00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,120 looking at products, I think, I think just looking for as much 945 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:41,480 transparency as possible and like, I think look, trusting 946 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,080 your local store, they'd like, we're still lucky enough that 947 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,800 there are still independent stores and there are still pet 948 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:49,160 professionals out there which you can talk to about stuff. 949 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,840 Some are better than others, some some, but, you know, some 950 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:57,400 are more engaged than others. But I do think that, you know, 951 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:03,200 engaging with a good like, you know, retailer is, is still the 952 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:07,360 best way to do it rather than just relying on Amazon and yeah, 953 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:12,280 or just buying online. Because I think we learn a lot 954 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:16,920 from actually talking to to individual sellers who actually 955 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,440 are genuinely passionate about about what they do. 956 00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:25,640 And I think that the modern era does make us lazy and not not 957 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:27,680 actually do do what we should to be honest. 958 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:31,160 So there is a lot of like small independence fellows out there 959 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,200 who who are really passionate, who have read a lot, who do care 960 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,480 about nutrition, who do care about giving people the right 961 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:40,840 products for the right, right situation. 962 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,920 So I think it's just working with those guys as much as you 963 00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,760 can is important. Yeah, I think that's a great 964 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:54,840 place to end because absolutely supporting local independent pet 965 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,960 stores is is one of the best things we can do do as pet 966 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:03,040 parents because they are really there for us just like you just 967 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,960 said. And Speaking of sleeping at 968 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,840 night, I will let you get to that because you stayed up late 969 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,560 to to record this for us and I appreciate that. 970 00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,760 No, that's right. It's it's still only like it's 971 00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:16,560 not even 10:00 PM here. So that's fine. 972 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,520 That's fine. Well, I certainly appreciate you 973 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,720 for jumping on here and sharing some of your knowledge with us. 974 00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:28,320 Clayton, can you tell everybody a little bit about your podcast? 975 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,640 It may not, you know, be for the average pet parent. 976 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,160 It may be, I don't know what, what is what do you feel like 977 00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,520 your audience is? Tell, tell us a. 978 00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:38,720 Little bit more about it. I don't know who my audience is 979 00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:39,960 if I'm on this. So I have. 980 00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,440 It's the biggest pet industry podcast, so it's called Pet 981 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,720 Business Disruptors and I try and engage people who are doing 982 00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,560 different things differently or, and that can be everything from 983 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,360 I've had pet crematoriums on talking about the cremation 984 00:59:55,360 --> 01:00:00,480 industry to, you know, people making alternative proteins to, 985 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,280 you know, like to brands that develop, develop and evolving 986 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,080 nutritionist vets, that sort of stuff. 987 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,520 So people who sort of stand on the fringes and and shout a 988 01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,280 different machine is what I try and do. 989 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,640 Because I think like, look, I mean, and, and I don't know who 990 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,360 listens, People listen. I don't know why you want to 991 01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,680 listen to me is beyond me. I mean, so sorry to anyone who 992 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,000 did listen to to me waffling on, but yeah. 993 01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,960 So if you want to listen, it's on all the channels, whatever. 994 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:30,880 Awesome. Well that will be in the show 995 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,280 notes as well guys, if you just want to go click the link to it. 996 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,880 So thank you so much again for being here with us, Clayton. 997 01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:41,000 Thank you for listening today. And please give your pets some 998 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,560 extra love from me and from Clayton today and I will talk to 999 01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:44,880 you next.